August 2, 2022 Show with Jeremy Brandenburg on “Patriarchy: Repression, Obsession, or the Design of God?”

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August 3, 2022

August 2, 2022 JEREMY BRANDENBURG, a former Army officer & pastor of Redeemer Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, who will address: “PATRIARCHY: REPRESSION, OBSESSION OR THE DESIGN OF GOD?”

00:04: Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century Gospel Minister George Norcross, in downtown
00:10: Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,
00:23: Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the Church and the world today.
00:31: Proverbs 27, verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
00:38: Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
00:51: It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.
00:58: And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,
01:10: Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth, who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.
01:20: This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on the second day of August 2022.
01:28: I'm thrilled to have back as a returning guest today somebody who is becoming a very good friend of mine, a fairly recently installed pastor here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, Jeremy Brandenburg, a former
01:44: Army officer and the new pastor of Redeemer Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania.
01:51: Today we are going to be addressing a very controversial issue, patriarchy, repression, obsession, or the design of God.
01:59: And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Jeremy Brandenburg. Chris, thanks so much.
02:05: It's great to be with you. Well, tell our listeners, especially for the sake of those who did not hear you last time you were on the broadcast, tell our listeners about Redeemer Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania.
02:18: Redeemer OPC. We are a great bunch of folks saved, washed by the blood of Christ, and beloved by God the
02:30: Father. I thought you were a Presbyterian church, not a Baptist church. I was going to say,
02:38: I prayed for you today and God's blessing on your ministry, and I'm obligated to hold out hope that you will one day cross over into the true land of wisdom and blessing in the
02:54: Presbyterian church. But anyway, I'm really thankful for the ties between our two churches.
03:01: In fact, I wanted to throw a commendation out to John and Simon and all the elders at Grace, because I think they actually, on the topic of patriarchy,
03:13: I don't know that John would say he's patriarchal, he'd probably say he's a complementarian, but I think your church does a great job discipling men and women, but I know they have a program for fathers and sons, and I think that's great stuff.
03:27: But anyway, Redeemer, we're a little church on the corner of York and Petersburg.
03:33: We're about a stone's throw from Interstate 81, so if you're coming down the interstate, stop by and see us. We, praise the
03:38: Lord, we're a small sanctuary, but we're filling up. All the glory to God, people are coming, they're staying, which always amazes me, because it is a tremendous privilege to preach
03:53: God's Word, and it's a wonderful thing that people are being blessed here and built up in the grace of Christ.
04:00: And you are, and I'm not just flattering you here, or I should say I'm not flattering you.
04:07: I know you wouldn't. But you are a really extraordinary preacher. I had the privilege of hearing you preach when you were a guest preacher at the aforementioned
04:16: Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, and that was a real great blessing and an edifying experience for me, hearing you preach.
04:25: Well, thanks, Chris. Like I said, I actually really enjoy getting together with John and Simon, and I'm very thankful for the connections, and the ongoing connections and the friendship between our churches.
04:39: Yes, and Simon just told me after Lord's Day worship that he would like to return to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio to discuss foundations of the
04:50: Christian faith, which was the theme of his sermon on Sunday, and I'm hoping that he sticks to his word and comes back on, because I really love interviewing him.
05:01: If anybody wants more information about Redeemer Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, go to RedeemerOPC .org,
05:10: RedeemerOPC .org. And as I said at the outset of the program, this theme today, patriarchy, is very controversial, especially since there are people who profess to be
05:27: Christians and some people who are Christians, but who have taken the term patriarchy, which they use to identify themselves, to an extreme which
05:42: I think is sinful and has really given a bad reputation to others that identify themselves with this label of believing in patriarchy.
05:54: But why don't you define patriarchy for us to start off? Sure. Well, that's the thing about things that God did in creation.
06:04: You don't, like, well, obviously you can dispute it, because we have people today who are disputing, you know, people saying,
06:11: I'm born a man, and then say, well, they wake up one day and they say, I'm a woman now, which, you know, we would say is the irrational tendency of the mind and the will and the heart because of the fall and because of the effects of sin.
06:26: But patriarchy, I mean, the very basic definition is father rule. And the thing
06:32: I really, I wanted to discuss this with you no matter what the next time you were going to let me be on your show.
06:40: So thank you, by the way, for having me back. But I felt even more empowered and emboldened to talk about this because I was very pleased to see an article, a blog, from Kevin DeYoung on Desiring God's website talking about patriarchy.
07:00: And he, it was, that's really interesting to me because there is a movement.
07:07: It's just, it's a hot topic right now. Biblical patriarchy, it's associated.
07:14: Many people, you say the name Doug Wilson, and the hair on the back of their neck stands up. They don't like him, even in Reformed circles.
07:21: In fact, I heard, I kind of got a sense for how disliked Doug Wilson is in talking to some
07:28: OPC ministers. And one man who I'd never heard say a bad word about anyone, Doug Wilson was mentioned, and he immediately had a strong reaction.
07:37: And I thought, okay. You know, Doug Wilson and his denomination, the
07:42: CREC, it's kind of their brand being very strong on male headship, not just in the church but in the home and in society.
07:56: They really commend it. They teach it. They encourage it. But it's spreading, and the influence is not just with that church and that denomination, but it's a hot topic right now.
08:09: But I would say the basic definition is father rule. And, you know, we need to, as we discuss this as Christians, we should always obviously come back to Scripture.
08:20: And if you look at the biblical account, you know, I think you see patriarchy all throughout
08:28: Scripture. You see it from Genesis 1. God created man, male, and female in his own image.
08:35: But you go to Genesis 2, and the further detail in the creation account is that Adam was created first, and Adam was created to be the first father of all mankind.
08:46: So it's not, to me, anything that is, you know, out of sync with the teaching of Scripture.
08:53: Well, as you know, the more common way that conservative and especially
09:03: Reformed congregations, fellowships, and denominations refer to their views of gender roles in the family and in the church, the more common way to describe this is complementarian.
09:25: And you have told me that you prefer the term patriarchy.
09:31: You think that complementarian perhaps is a deficient way of describing proper biblical gender roles.
09:38: Why don't you compare and contrast those two concepts? Right. Yeah, like you said,
09:46: I'm becoming less comfortable with that term. And, you know, I think it's important even to take a step back from the issue of patriarchy itself because we're not, as a
09:59: Christian pastor, I'm not trying to sit here and commend the concept of patriarchy. I'm trying to commend
10:05: Christ, the Lord Jesus Christ and his gospel to every man and woman and child.
10:13: Tremendous implications for the church, for the individual believer, male or female, to understand or misunderstand who we are as created beings, created male or female, but both equally in God's image.
10:31: There's tremendous implications, and I think we're living with the fallout. It's one of the things that DeYoung mentions in his post that I thought was so helpful, just acknowledging the fallout for the last,
10:43: I'd say the last 50 years with the influence of the feminist movement. Moving away from, so with the term complementarian,
10:53: I just think it was a compromised position to make the biblical teaching on male and female gender roles and specifically male only, you know, having only men leading in the church, serving as officers, pastors, deacons, elders, whatever your polity.
11:11: The Bible teaches that men are supposed to lead in the church. Men are supposed to lead in the home. There's a presumption. It's a given.
11:20: Paul takes it as a given in 1 Timothy and other places where he talks about the qualifications for officer that the men are ordering their household well.
11:30: Now, we all know the women have a very important and high calling in the home. Women are the ones who can actually bear children and nurse children, and especially in most traditional
11:42: Reformed families and churches, you're going to see women stay at home. But men are expected and commanded and required biblically to be the leaders in the home.
11:52: So I've just found the more that I've thought about this, the more that I've looked at this not just in our current cultural context because we shouldn't say something.
12:00: We shouldn't embrace something just because, well, things are bad in the culture right now. We should do it. We should believe it because it's true and because it's biblical.
12:08: And the term complementarian, it just seems like a compromised position. And I think just to take a step back from this whole issue,
12:16: I think part of the problem here, and I would say it's a big problem, is that we have a tendency to avoid topics, to avoid issues and problems that have the potential to cause offense and not to kick a man when he's down or beat a dead horse.
12:35: The issues that are going on in the PCA right now, thankfully they had a positive vote. I saw a tremendous speech that was passed along to me from the
12:44: General Assembly from Palmer Robertson taking a stand against homosexuality.
12:52: There's a tremendous inclination. It's almost like our reflex as Christians right now to avoid giving offense.
12:59: But, Chris, the problem is that being a Christian of any stripe is becoming more and more offensive in our culture.
13:06: It's automatically offensive. So why should we shy away from any part of God's truth?
13:12: No, we shouldn't at all. We should commend all of it. Amen. So do you see things from your experience as a pastor observing how other churches are conducting themselves, families, how they are conducting themselves, as you visit these churches, as you visit homes, as you have conversations with pastors and fathers, are you seeing and hearing about things that you are finding less than biblical, deficient, problematic in the way that even those that identify themselves as complementarian are teaching about and putting into practice proper biblical gender roles?
14:08: Right, right, yes, yes. The answer is yes. And I actually will try to find, I've got Kevin DeYoung's article here in front of me, and I want to read some helpful quotes.
14:21: He says essentially that if all we're holding onto is this very thin definition of complementarity and that all
14:30: God requires is that we're all egalitarian, we all believe men and women are the same, totally equal before God's eyes, in the community, in the home, in society, and God just requires as kind of this tacked -on belief that men should be elders and pastors, and they should believe in the home.
14:52: But really, functionally, the more I— yeah, it's a problem.
14:59: It's a problem in the Reformed world that it's basically men leading in name only.
15:06: And I mean, it's one thing to believe in male headship.
15:12: It's another thing to actually practice it. And I say this as a fellow sinner and—
15:21: Sorry, there's a firetruck going by. I hope those people are all right.
15:27: But speaking of firetruck, you put, do you want emergency responders a truck full, and this is not meant to be offensive, do you want a truck full of women coming in when you're in a burning building?
15:40: No, you don't. You want strong men who are capable. I'm not saying there can't be any women involved, but you want strong men in the fire company.
15:50: You want men who are capable and who understand the expectations that are placed upon them.
15:56: So I think—so what I'm seeing is that, you know, one of the things that's really standing out to me is that even in the
16:02: Reformed world, we say, okay, male pastors, male elders, but it seems to me in my brief experience so far in the ministry that we accept that, but only insofar as those men are at least, they're not too strong, they're not too bold, they're not giving offense.
16:22: And that's where I think, again, to come back to this kind of parallel issue of giving offense, we don't just want to be offensive for the sake of angering people, but people are going to be angry with what we have to say, because what we have to say is that we're all sinners, we're dead in our sins, and only by turning to Christ in faith are we made acceptable to God.
16:48: So I think this is something where, because we've taken this very nominal kind of weak -sauce approach to male leadership, teaching our sons, teaching young men, there's all kinds of bad habits and practices, both in the church and in the family, where, you know, you see—one of the things— so one of the books
17:09: I wanted to mention that I'm reading, and I think we're going to read as a church, as a men's group, it's called
17:15: It's Good to Be a Man, and it's by a pastor named Michael Foster and another man from,
17:21: I believe from New Zealand, Dominic Nontennant. And it's a really good book, not endorsing every single thing that Michael Foster says.
17:30: He's pretty out there on social media. But they point out—they make a very helpful point about tendencies in churches that— these churches may not be led officially by women, but he's saying there's an effeminate tendency that is bad, it's unbiblical, it's not
17:46: Christ -honoring. And they point out these two things, that when women are holding power in a church, whether it's official or unofficial, they say two things tend to happen.
17:57: And these are the two things. One, they strive to include anyone agreeable, regardless of error.
18:03: And two, they strive to exclude anyone disagreeable, regardless of orthodoxy. And you see what goes by the wayside there.
18:10: It's orthodoxy. It's biblical fidelity. And that's not good. Yeah, well, do you think, to start with, just to give the benefit of the doubt to some people, pastors, leaders in churches that have been very cautious about how they teach and practice the concept of proper biblical gender roles, that they do have this caution because they know of abuse that has taken place.
18:47: They know that there are perhaps women who never are given any sphere of influence and activity at all to use their gifts, even with other women.
19:09: They know of marriages where husbands are tyrants and may be abusive to their wives emotionally, mentally, and even physically.
19:24: And the church is so warped in its hyper -patriarchal ideas that they do nothing to discipline the men.
19:36: Right. I mean, I could go on and on with these kinds of things. So, don't we have to make it clear, extremely crystal clear, because of these things that have occurred, especially perhaps the previous generation.
19:54: But I know from hearing the testimonies of not only women, but even men who would share your understanding, our understanding of gender roles, who have seen these things happen.
20:09: Don't we have to make it very clear that we are not endorsing anything that even comes remotely close to that?
20:16: Yeah, no, we're certainly not endorsing anything like that. And it's a distortion that's kind of just taken root in our culture, and it's one of the things that DeYoung talks about in his post, about the fact that patriarchy is just automatically a bad term.
20:33: It only means bad things. But the reason that is, because it's been just talked about that way, that's an important part of it.
20:41: But, yeah, when men fail, women suffer, children suffer.
20:46: But the solution is not to then say, well, the men can't be in charge, so the women should be in charge.
20:51: If you want women to be protected, if you want women to flourish and thrive, single women, young girls, young women, older women, married and unmarried, if you want women to thrive, then you need men to be strong and to live godly, upright lives, understanding the whole counsel of God for life in the church, in the community, everywhere.
21:16: And so, to me, the antidote to abuse is not to have, well, let's put men on the side and let's bring in these outsides.
21:23: One of the things that was debated at our General Assembly, which is very, you know, a cause of no small amount of conflict, was this idea of bringing in an outside organization to help us, you know, find out abuse and then discover abuse and deal with abuse.
21:40: And, you know, I'm not against any looking for wisdom and insight under the sun, as one of my seminary professors would talk about it, even secular wisdom and insight to understand how to love and minister to everyone in the church better, especially women.
21:57: But if you want to protect women and if you want to protect children, you need strong, godly,
22:03: God -fearing men who are going to hold other men accountable. The reason these situations happen is because there's men who are not doing their duty before God and before the women, the wives and the mothers in the church.
22:16: So I would say the antidote is not to then, you know, push the men aside and say, okay, now we need the women to be in charge, but it's actually to, not that we don't listen to the women.
22:28: That's not the point at all. Women have a vital voice. I'm preaching on Psalms and Proverbs throughout the summer, and I just preached from Proverbs 1, and right at the beginning of Proverbs, he says, hear my son.
22:43: Listen, my son, to your father and your mother. You know, part of the emphasis, the positive emphasis, of restoring the biblical notion of patriarchy, of godly father rule, is that mothers would be empowered also and understand, that women would understand the vital role they have in the family to teach and instruct their children, especially their boys, because we live in a very confused time when it's viewed as a bad thing to be a male and it's a good thing to be a female, even though we don't even understand what that is anymore.
23:19: We don't even have a common consensus about Chenter at all. But yeah, no, it's important.
23:24: I'm glad you brought that up, because we're not, I am not commending or arguing for any form of male domination.
23:35: But the fact is, even in the Gospel, this is one of the things that, again, coming back to theology, Chris, as I've thought about this, as I've reflected on Scripture and what all this means, male and female, every believer worships the
23:50: God -man every Sunday and for all eternity, Jesus Christ. That is a profound and sublime reality, that God became a man.
24:03: He didn't become a woman. And we're not going to be able to work out all of the full meaning of that in this interview, but that matters.
24:12: And we should think about that. We should meditate on that reality that Jesus Christ is, now and forever, the
24:21: Son of God, united to a human nature as a man.
24:28: And these realities, as Paul says in Ephesians 5, are reflected in marriage. And he says there, what does Paul say in Ephesians 5?
24:33: He says, husbands, love your wives as your own flesh. That's not what the world says.
24:38: That's what God says in the Bible. You're not going to find that anywhere in secular culture. That's the gospel. That is the
24:45: God -ordained, Christ -exalting vision of marriage and family in the church.
24:51: It's husbands loving their wives and wives submitting to their husbands. So obviously, from what you've said, the way a church should make sure that they are addressing gender roles biblically and adopting a correct and biblical form of patriarchy.
25:14: First and foremost, they need to study the Scriptures on these things. It would even be wise to hear what great teachers of the past and present have said about these things, although obviously nothing is inerrant other than the
25:28: God -breathed Scriptures. But it's foolish to ignore the great teachers that God has blessed the church with.
25:37: And then, to appoint leaders in your church, appoint men in your church that are truly qualified to uphold the leadership roles to which they are appointed.
25:54: That they are not appointed because they're just very brilliant or just extremely gifted orators or just a heck of a nice guy.
26:11: Charming and able to captivate people with their conversation and so on.
26:19: They need to be really worthy of the task that has been entrusted to them.
26:28: Right. Yeah. And this is something that men and women both need to understand and believe and embrace.
26:35: Because women in the church are also part of the, you know, women in our church vote. And that's not going to change.
26:41: So women, as they're assessing men for leadership in the church, and as younger women are looking for a man that they want to marry, they should have a very clear idea of who fits the mold and what man is understanding
26:57: God's call on his life, God's requirements for men. You know, there's a danger here of denigrating or neglecting women.
27:09: But I'm not so afraid. The more I think about this and the more I pray about it, the more I kind of move forward with this, the less fearful
27:17: I am of that. Because when men are being called to live as servants of Christ in the church, in the home, in their workplace, there's only going to be—it's only going to benefit women.
27:32: And, you know, part of this is correcting the way women think about these things, too. And if you—what is the—by osmosis, we are in our culture, we're a part of our world, but we're also separate.
27:47: We can't—Paul talks about the fact that we can't, you know, go out of the world. We can't leave it. We're Americans.
27:53: We're living in Western society. We're living in American culture. And the dominant message is that there's something bad about being a man and there's something wrong with you.
28:05: And that's not true biblically. The thing that's wrong with you is sin, and that's been taken away in Christ.
28:14: But there's nothing—it's not as if God made a mistake in Genesis 1 and then Jesus came and he had to correct it, and we're all supposed to be more like—all the men need to be more like the women, and there's something more righteous about being a woman.
28:25: That's why I like the title of Foster and Tennant's book, It's Good to Be a Man, because it comes right out of Genesis 1.
28:32: But there is the potential to make it sound as if women are second -class citizens, that they're less valuable to the
28:39: Lord, and that's not it at all. But it's about commending and understanding and believing what
28:45: God has revealed in special revelation, the Scriptures, and in general revelation in creation.
28:54: And we're part of creation, male and female. Well, we have to go to our very first break right now. If anybody would like to send in a question of their own to Pastor Jeremy Brandenburg, whether you agree with what he is saying, whether you disagree, whether you're somewhere in the middle,
29:09: I'd love to hear from women, too, to have their two cents added to the discussion.
29:16: Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.
29:23: Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the
29:29: USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.
29:35: Let's say you are a woman and you believe yourself to have been a victim of unbalanced and unbiblical patriarchy or spousal abuse or what have you, and you don't want to draw identity to yourself.
29:52: Or you're just a person who perhaps disagrees with the leadership in your church over this issue, no matter what side you stand on.
30:01: You might even be a pastor. You disagree with your fellow elders to some extent or even entirely about this issue.
30:10: There could be a host of reasons why you would want to remain anonymous if the issues are personal and private.
30:16: But please, if it's just a general question, a general question on gender roles, a general question on the
30:22: Bible, I urge you to give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.
30:30: Don't go away. We'll be right back with Pastor Jeremy Brandenburg of Redeemer Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania on patriarchy right after these messages from our sponsors.
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37:24: One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Arnzen is doing is
37:29: Daniel P. Patafuco, serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.
37:35: Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society. Their mission?
37:41: To foster belief in the credibility of Scripture as the written Word of God. They go to various churches, schools, and institutions to publicly display a rare collection of biblical texts along with a fascinating presentation by Mr.
37:57: Patafuco demonstrating the reliability of Scripture. To advance the cause of the
38:02: Gospel, they created a beautiful, perfect facsimile of the genealogy of Jesus Christ from the original engravings contained in a 1st edition 1611
38:13: King James Bible. This 17th century hand -engraved chart shows the family tree of Jesus Christ going back to Adam and Eve.
38:24: This book is complete with gorgeous full -size illustrations of Noah's Ark and the
38:30: Tower of Babel and an explanation of why the genealogy of Jesus is so important for his claims to the throne of the universe.
38:39: Originals of this work are in museums and nobody has ever made it accessible to the public in a large book form before.
38:48: You can have your own copy of this 44 -page genealogy book for a donation of $35 or more.
38:55: Visit historicalbiblesociety .org That's historicalbiblesociety .org
39:02: Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air. I'm Dr.
39:17: Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,
39:28: Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell.
39:35: It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in his holy word and to enthusiastically proclaim
39:53: Christ Jesus the King and his doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.
40:00: I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love, as I have.
40:09: For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net
40:15: That's hopereformedli .net Or call 631 -696 -5711
40:24: That's 631 -696 -5711
40:29: Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Toni Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.
40:44: As a mother, I was looking for a magazine that would include devotionals that I could quickly do before school and had theology and doctrine made very simple for children to understand that they could read themselves or I could walk them through.
41:01: There's tiered content so that you can go to the older group and learn more or go to a younger section and it's even more simple.
41:09: Join us on our journey in developing our magazine entitled Ignited by the
41:14: Word which engages and ignites the hearts of our children and young people in their walk with God.
41:22: Order Ignited by the Word for your home today at ignitedbytheword .org
41:28: Learn more information and subscribe now at ignitedbytheword .org and receive your first two issues free and put good literature in your children's hands.
41:39: And folks, ignitedbytheword .org is one of our largest financial supporters through their ad campaigns and their advertising campaign is up for renewal this month.
41:53: So I'm urging you, if you're a parent, if you're a grandparent, if you're an uncle or aunt or you have children in your life in some other connected way or perhaps you just want to purchase a wonderful gift for parents that you know who have young children.
42:12: I strongly urge you to subscribe to the Ignited by the
42:18: Word magazine and once again that website is ignitedbytheword .org
42:23: ignitedbytheword .org and make sure that you mention that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen of Iron Trip and Zion Radio.
42:30: The more subscriptions that they get, the more I'm sure they are going to be willing to renew their advertising contract.
42:39: And remember folks, we depend upon our advertisers and the finances that come from them to exist.
42:46: So please go to ignitedbytheword .org and subscribe to that magazine today and mention
42:53: Iron Trip and Zion Radio. We're now back with our guest today, Pastor Jeremy Brandenburg of Redeemer Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.
43:05: Our theme is Patriarchy, Repression, Obsession, or the Design of God.
43:12: And we do have a listener who is a mutual friend of both
43:17: Pastor Jeremy and myself. In fact, he's been a guest on this program on a number of occasions in the past.
43:25: He's been a co -host with me on this program and he is a former colleague with Ken Ham, the world -renowned
43:33: Christian young earth creationist. Charlie is the founder and director of his own ministry called
43:44: Six Day Creation and he's actually going to be my guest a week from today. August 9th,
43:50: Tuesday, August 9th, to discuss a new book he has written after the very tragic loss of his son after a suicide.
44:00: So I'm urging everybody to mark their calendars for Tuesday, August 9th, to hear what
44:06: Charlie has to say about a very important and rarely discussed topic, the
44:13: Christian and suicide, and we're looking forward to having Charlie on. And I'm thankful and grateful to him for being willing to discuss openly on a radio program such a very private and intimate and painful subject.
44:31: But Charlie asks, can women be deacons in a Bible -believing church?
44:38: Well, I think the answer is to, oh, hi, Charlie, by the way. Charlie and Terry have become very dear friends and I love them both and I knew that Charlie would be listening, and so no surprise that he's a first question.
44:53: But also I'm really glad that you are going to have Charlie on, and obviously incredibly sad and devastating for Charlie and Terry to lose their son the way they did.
45:06: But I am so proud of Charlie and Terry, and I've told them that the way that they are going through this is bringing glory to God, and it's showing the power.
45:18: You know, Charlie and Terry are not getting younger. They're not spring chickens, as we say, but I have seen, and they've been a blessing to me just to visit with them and to see the power of Christ in each of them and the grace that he's given them to walk through this very, very difficult valley.
45:40: So I look forward to listening next week and to reading Charlie's book.
45:48: The short answer is no. You know, there's churches that have,
45:54: Reformed churches even, that have deaconesses, and biblically, you know, it's very clear.
46:03: It's talking about men, men being appointed as deacons and elders.
46:10: There's nowhere in the New Testament that I know there's some of the language in Romans about the women who helped
46:15: Paul, the women who, by the way, were vital to his ministry. But, you know, a lot, and we tried, part of the big problem here with the whole, you know, issues of gender dynamics, male and female, the roles in the church, is we try to take the exception and make that the rule.
46:34: Like people say, well, look at Deborah. You know, she was a prophetess. Well, it was the book of Judges.
46:39: And look at Anna. She was a prophetess when Christ came. Well, she wasn't a priest. The priests were only men.
46:48: So we try to take the exceptions and make that the rule. Biblically, no, women cannot be deacons.
46:55: And I think churches that, you know, I actually grew up in a church with deaconesses, and the church that I grew up in, 10th
47:01: Presbyterian in Philadelphia, has been able to kind of maintain that, the distinction there. And they haven't, you know, people say, oh, it's a slippery slope.
47:09: That's not true in every case. It's not always the case that a church that has unordained deaconesses, they end up going the route of, well, then you have women who are ordained deacons, and then women elders, then women pastors.
47:20: I just think it's not a good move. It's not a wise thing to do. I think there's many ways to build up the role of women in the church.
47:32: Titus 2, let the older women teach the younger women. Women are supposed to teach.
47:37: There's a place for women to be teaching. And, you know, how are younger women supposed to learn if older women aren't teaching?
47:44: So there's a proper place for women teaching in every church, not just some churches. This is the apostolic constitution, as one of the church fathers
47:54: I read in preparation for my sermon on Sunday referred to it. This is our church constitution as a whole, church
48:02: Catholic, small c Catholic. This is for everyone, not just for, well, our church believes this. Well, if your church believes the
48:08: Bible, every church, every Christian church should have women, godly older women, teaching younger women.
48:16: And I think it's appropriate for women to be teaching children, young boys and girls.
48:25: I think the older children get, the more important it is to have men involved. In fact, that's one of the things
48:31: I'm praying for and wanting to see in my church is more men involved in the Sunday school program, especially at the older levels because, you know, young men need godly examples of men teaching and leading.
48:45: So that is my answer to Charlie. And folks,
48:51: I want to give you Charlie's website for his ministry. It's sixdaycreation .com
48:57: and the word six is spelled out. It's not the number. It's S -I -X, sixdaycreation .com.
49:04: Quick humorous story. I don't know if you heard this story, Pastor Jeremy, but I was at an event where Charlie was the keynote speaker and I was sitting at the banquet table with his lovely wife
49:18: Terry and I leaned over to Terry and I said, Hey, Terry, did you know that Charlie and I went to the same high school in Amityville, Long Island, New York?
49:26: And she said, Oh, did you graduate together? And Charlie's about 20 years older than I am.
49:34: Charlie's on the better end of that question. Yeah, you're both New Yorkers, but we don't hold it against you.
49:45: And looking forward to the interview, Charlie. One thing to say about that, the way that Charlie worded it,
49:53: I think we have to be somewhat careful. And you did include this in your answer to a degree.
50:02: But when he says, Can women be deacons in a Bible -believing church? There is a church whose pastor
50:11: I consider to be one of my greatest living heroes of the faith, John MacArthur. And although I don't agree with everything that John MacArthur believes and teaches and everything that Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, California, practices, they are dispensationalists.
50:27: But I think that that is really not the primary thrust of John MacArthur or his church.
50:35: They share the treasure, just as I do, the precious doctrines of sovereign grace and many other things.
50:44: They have deaconesses, but they view that role as not being an office of the church.
50:53: They don't believe that those women have any authority over men in any way, shape, or form, nor do they ever teach men.
51:03: So I just wanted to make that clarification that I think that you could be a Bible -believing church and an error on something.
51:12: Right. And I just thought I'd throw that in there. We have to go to our midway break right now.
51:19: This is the longer than normal break in the show because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1
51:25: FM in Lake City, Florida, they are compelled by the FCC to localize all of their programming to Lake City, Florida, geographically.
51:40: And they do that by airing their own public service announcements and other local things in the middle of our show.
51:48: While they do that, we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials. So please use this time wisely.
51:54: We ask of you to write down as much of the contact information as you possibly can for as many of our advertisers as you can so that you can more frequently and successfully respond to our advertisers.
52:08: And we hope that on occasion you're able to purchase the products that our advertisers sell and you're able to support financially the parachurch organizations that advertise with us and that you're able to, on occasion, especially if you're traveling, to visit some of the churches that advertise.
52:26: But when you can't do any of those things, please at the very least contact our advertisers if you are really grateful that there are people out there and organizations out there that love this show so much that they share some of the money that God has blessed them with with us so that we can continue to exist.
52:47: If you're really grateful for that, because you love the show, please contact our advertisers and thank them for sponsoring
52:55: Iron Trump and Zion Radio. That will go a long way, I believe. I am confident to keep our advertisers happy and to keep them interested in renewing their advertising contracts.
53:06: Because remember, folks, Iron Trump and Zion Radio cannot exist without the donations and the advertising that you hear on this program.
53:16: So please support our advertisers, at least with a word of encouragement, by thanking them for sponsoring the show.
53:23: Also, send in your questions to Pastor Jeremy Brandenburg on Patriarchy, to chrisarnson at gmail .com.
53:31: chrisarnson at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.
53:37: Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Don't go away.
53:43: We'll be right back with Pastor Jeremy Brandenburg right after these messages. Attention all men in ministry leadership.
54:01: You're all invited to my friend Chris Arnson's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastors Luncheon Thursday, September 22, 11 a .m.
54:10: to 2 p .m. at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania, featuring me,
54:15: James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries, your keynote speaker. Not only will you enjoy a wonderful time of fellowship with your colleagues in ministry over a delicious meal, but you'll also receive dozens of free brand new books donated by Christian publishers all over the
54:30: United States and the United Kingdom, personally selected by Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
54:37: So if you're a pastor, an elder, a deacon, a parachurch leader, or any other man in ministry leadership, please register for the
54:44: Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastors Luncheon today by calling 631 -291 -7002 631 -291 -7002 or by visiting ironsharpensironradio .com
55:02: ironsharpensironradio .com This is James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries hoping to see you
55:07: Thursday, September 22, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m. at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania for Chris Arnson's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastors Luncheon.
55:30: If you're near retirement or thinking about retiring, you probably have questions.
55:42: How do you make your savings last? How much should you take out and when? You're ready for retirement, but are your finances?
55:51: Art Amundsen, an Edward Jones financial advisor, can help you build a strategy to help make sure your finances keep up with your long -term needs.
56:00: Do what it takes to get there. Now it's time to make the most of retirement. Visit edwardjones .com
56:07: That's edwardjones .com or call 717 -258 -4688 717 -258 -4688
56:17: We here at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio are forever grateful for the generous financial support of Art Amundsen, Edward Jones financial advisor in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.
56:29: Call 717 -258 -4688 today. I'm Dr.
56:43: Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.
56:51: Every Christian who's serious about the Deformed Faith and the Westminster Standards should have and use the eight -volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the
57:02: Westminster Larger Catechism titled Authentic Christianity by Dr. Joseph Moorcraft.
57:08: It is much more than an exposition of the Larger Catechism. It is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology.
57:19: Dr. Moorcraft is pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia and I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation.
57:31: For details on the eight -volume commentary, go to westminstercommentary .com westminstercommentary .com
57:39: For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com
57:48: heritagepresbyterianchurch .com Please tell Dr. Moorcraft and the saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia that Dr.
57:55: Joseph Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sends you. Anchored in Truth Ministries is the mission arm of Grace Life Church of the
58:11: Shoals. Based in Alabama, it supports missionaries in over 13 countries around the world.
58:21: Anchored in Truth is in partnership with 36 church plants as well as radio stations, theological seminaries, and various programs for unreached people groups.
58:33: With an aim to glorify God and reach the nations with the gospel, it is a blessing to see how
58:39: God has used Anchored in Truth in so many different contexts globally as well as locally.
58:47: To find out more about this vital work worldwide, visit anchoredintruth .org
58:57: Why can't we see God? How do we know we picked the right
59:02: Bible? Why do we go to church on Sunday? Parents, if your kids have questions about God's Word and His creation, they would love to read our new reformed magazine called
59:15: Ignited by the Word. This magazine is packed full of devotionals,
59:21: Bible stories, church history, poems, activities, and more to encourage you and kids of all ages in their walk with God.
59:30: Created by a team of teachers, ministers, mothers, fathers, and more, we know how important it is to have
59:38: Christian literature in our homes. Order Ignited by the Word for your home today at ignitedbytheword .org.
59:47: Learn more information and subscribe now at ignitedbytheword .org and receive your first two issues free.
59:55: Getting a driver's license, running a cash register, flipping burgers, passing 6th grade.
01:00:02: Do you know what they all have in common? They all require training, assessments, and certifications. But do you know what requires no training at all?
01:00:10: Becoming a parent. My name is A .M. Brewster. I'm the president of Truth, Love, Parent, and host of its award -winning podcast.
01:00:18: I've been a biblical family counselor since the early 2000s, and what I've discovered is that the majority of Christian parents have never been biblically equipped to do the work of the ministry in their homes.
01:00:29: That's why Truth, Love, Parent exists. We serve God by equipping dads and moms to be the ambassador parents
01:00:35: God called and created them to be. We produce free parenting resources, train church leaders, and offer biblical counseling so that the next generation of dads and moms can use the scriptures to parent their children for life and godliness.
01:00:47: Please visit us at truthloveparent .com. Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions, coffee shops, and local hangouts,
01:01:03: Long Island Youth for Christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need Jesus.
01:01:09: We are rural and urban, and we are always about the message of Jesus. Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following Christ.
01:01:21: Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959. We have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around the world.
01:01:35: Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future. Volunteer, donate, pray, or all of the above.
01:01:42: For details, call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385 -8333.
01:01:49: That's 631 -385 -8333. Or visit liyfc .org.
01:01:57: That's l -i -y -f -c dot org. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.
01:02:13: If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know I have a great love for getting Bibles and other documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity.
01:02:24: And besides that, they feel so good. I'm so delighted I discovered post -Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding.
01:02:30: No radio ad will be long enough to sing their praises sufficiently, but I'll give it a shot. Jeffrey Rice of Post -Tenebrous
01:02:37: Lux is a remarkably gifted craftsman and artisan. All his work is done by hand from the cutting to the pleating of corners to the perimeter stitching.
01:02:46: Jeffrey uses the finest in buttery soft imported leathers in a wide variety of gorgeous colors like the turquoise goatskin tanned in Italy used for my
01:02:55: Nestle All -in -28th edition with a navy blue goatskin inside liner and the electric blue goatskin from a
01:03:02: French tannery used to rebind a Reformation study Bible I used as a gift. The silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome.
01:03:13: Jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications and even emboss your logo into the leather, making whatever he rebinds a one -of -a -kind work of art.
01:03:23: For more details on post -Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding, go to ptlbiblerebinding .com.
01:03:31: That's ptlbiblerebinding .com. Lindbrook Baptist Church on 225
01:03:44: Earl Avenue in Lindbrook, Long Island, is teaching God's timeless truths in the 21st century. Our church is far more than a
01:03:51: Sunday worship service. It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.
01:03:57: It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement. It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people and healing.
01:04:04: We're a diverse family of all ages. Enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ. In fellowship, play, and together.
01:04:11: Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman, and I invite you to come and join us here at Lindbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can be.
01:04:17: Call Lindbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402. That's 516 -599 -9402.
01:04:25: Or visit LindbrookBaptist .org. That's LindbrookBaptist .org. O hail the power of Jesus' name.
01:04:37: This is Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.
01:04:43: Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support
01:04:48: Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially. Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our
01:05:04: Lord Jesus Christ. And of course, the end for which we strive is the glory of God.
01:05:11: If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe ten minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some
01:05:24: Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.
01:05:34: Our website is GraceChurchAtFranklin .org. That's GraceChurchAtFranklin .org.
01:05:42: This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our
01:05:48: Sovereign Lord, God, Savior, and King, Jesus Christ, today and always.
01:06:03: As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.
01:06:16: The church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.
01:06:26: Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he shall be represented in the world.
01:06:34: They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship
01:06:40: God in spirit and truth. Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a
01:06:45: God -centered focus. Reading, preaching, and hearing the Word of God, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, baptism, and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship, performed with faith, joy, and sobriety.
01:07:00: Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at GCBCNJ .squarespace
01:07:09: .com. That's GCBCNJ .squarespace .com.
01:07:16: Or call them at 908 -996 -7654. That's 908 -996 -7654.
01:07:25: Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Hi, this is
01:07:44: John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnzen and the
01:07:51: Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the
01:08:03: Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast, knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.
01:08:12: I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised
01:08:19: Chris up for just such a time. And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.
01:08:28: I'm pleased to do so, and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting
01:08:34: Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?
01:08:42: I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com
01:08:49: where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com Iron Sharpens Iron When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the
01:09:07: New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the
01:09:16: Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the
01:09:21: NASB. I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, president and professor of systematic and homiletical theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylor, South Carolina, and the
01:09:32: NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Chuck White of the
01:09:38: First Trinity Lutheran Church in Tonawanda, New York, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.
01:09:44: I'm Pastor Anthony Methenia of Christ Church in Radford, Virginia, and the NASB is my
01:09:49: Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Jesse Miller of Damascus Road Christian Church in Gardnerville, Nevada, and the
01:09:56: NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Bruce Bennett of Word of Truth Church in Farmerville, Long Island, New York, and the
01:10:05: NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Rodney Brown of Metro Bible Church in Southlake, Texas, and the
01:10:14: NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Jim Harrison of Red Mills Baptist Church in Mayapac Falls, New York, and the
01:10:21: NASB is my Bible of choice. Here's a great way for your church to help keep
01:10:27: Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew Bibles tattered and falling apart?
01:10:33: Consider restocking your pews with the NASB, and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
01:10:42: Go to nasbible .com. That's nasbible .com to place your order.
01:10:54: Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said, Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read.
01:11:02: He who never quotes will never be quoted. He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own.
01:11:09: You need to read. Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the
01:11:16: Prince of Preachers to heart. The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future, and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.
01:11:29: Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered,
01:11:34: Christ -exalting books for all ages. We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com.
01:11:42: That's solid -ground -books .com, and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can unearth from Solid Ground.
01:11:51: Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And always remember to make solid -ground -books .com
01:12:00: your very first stop for all your gift -giving needs. Purchase frequently and purchase generously at solid -ground -books .com,
01:12:09: always mentioning that you heard about them from Chris Arntzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Before I return to my discussion with Pastor Jeremy Brandenburg of Redeemer Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, on patriarchy, we just have a couple of announcements to make that are very important.
01:12:26: First of all, if you love this show, folks, you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves, please. I'm urging you, go to ironsharpensironradio .com,
01:12:35: click support, then click click to donate now. You can donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that fashion, and if you prefer snail mail, there will also be a physical address that appears on your screen when you click support at ironsharpensironradio .com,
01:12:50: where you can mail a physical check made out to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. If you want to advertise with us, as long as whatever it is you're promoting is compatible with what
01:13:00: I believe, you don't have to believe exactly as I do, but you need to be promoting something that is at the very least compatible with what
01:13:07: I believe, please send me an email to chrisarntzen at gmail .com, and put advertising in the subject line.
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01:15:31: Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who asks, Pastor Jeremy, I'm still not really getting the gist as to how patriarchy is significantly different, or different at all, than complementarianism.
01:15:47: Is it just the word that bothers you, complementarianism, because maybe it has too many loopholes attached to the name?
01:15:55: Great question. I think patriarchy, and how is it different from complementarianism, it's a difference in emphasis, and I think if you look at the way people use the term complementarian, and I think there's lots of people and lots of men, pastors in the
01:16:18: Reformed world, who would use the term. Kevin DeYoung in his article says he's still going to use the term, that's great, but I think it's very revealing that he's even writing this.
01:16:26: I think it's a response to the trend that's kind of highlighting, or pulling back the curtain, so to speak, on the fact that it's such a compromised term to make what the
01:16:39: Bible actually teaches less offensive and more palatable to people who aren't
01:16:45: Christians, and even to make Christians look less crazy in the world. But the question is, what are the differences?
01:16:53: Well, I think if you believe that the Bible is supporting patriarchy, or teaching patriarchy, then it means father rule.
01:17:01: It means that men are created to rule, and it's not just that, well, men have to be, because God said so, men have to be, only men can be the leaders in the
01:17:11: Church. It's like, no, the difference is that to say that you believe patriarchy is biblical, and that it's
01:17:18: God's design, it means that God designed for men to lead. He designed for Adam and Eve.
01:17:24: They complemented each other. Adam needed Eve, and Eve needed Adam. But Eve, the woman, was created to be
01:17:31: Adam's helper. And Adam was created to lead and to rule, and it was a co -rule.
01:17:38: They were king and queen together, I think we can say, and fully affirmed, but men are given the gifts to lead, and when men exercise those gifts, not just in the, yes, in the
01:17:49: Church, yes, in the home, and really and fully in the home. It's not just a nod to, well, because the
01:17:55: Bible says that we have to let the husband know. Husbands need to lead with full authority and conviction in the home, and women should be building up their husband in the eyes of their children, in the eyes of their
01:18:07: Church community, in the eyes of their non -believing community. Women should say good things about the husband.
01:18:12: You know, one of the things I'm always talking about with my wife is how, in popular culture, to be a man is kind of a joke.
01:18:18: You know, we watched this one show, and it just, it really infuriates me how, well, there is one guy on the show who's a strong male leader.
01:18:32: He's a strong leader. Would this be the Munsters? I'm just curious. Say that again?
01:18:39: I'm sorry? You said the Munsters? Yeah, I was just joking. You know, but if you just, if you look at any, you know,
01:18:48: I could use this one particular show as an example. If you look at pop culture, you look at the way men are even spoken about, look at the way men are portrayed in movies and TV.
01:18:57: By and large, they're a joke. The dad is always a doofus, and what
01:19:04: I'm saying is, Dad, you're not a doofus. Dad, you are given strength and ability and gifts to lead, and you must lead, and you must exercise strength in a
01:19:15: Christ -exalting and confident way in your family, in your workplace, because that is
01:19:21: God's design. So it is, in that way, I think it is different than what a lot of people mean by complementarianism.
01:19:31: And I think, again, the complementarianism was a compromised position. I don't know if the term was coined by John Piper and Wayne Grudem, but they certainly were a big part of promoting it in their book on biblical manhood and womanhood.
01:19:49: But it's simply acknowledging the fact that men were created to rule. And some of the best quotes come from secular authors.
01:19:58: One of the guys that Kevin DeYoung cites is a man named Stephen Goldberg, who wrote a book called
01:20:03: The Inevitability of Patriarchy, and he says that Goldberg thinks his book has set a world record for the number of times it was rejected by publishers.
01:20:12: He was rejected 69 times by 55 publishers, because the term is so unpalatable.
01:20:18: Well, why is it unpalatable? Is it only because, yes, there's bad patriarchy, there's bad fathers, there's bad male leaders?
01:20:28: No, it's because anything that is truly God's design is going to be resisted by sinful human nature.
01:20:37: So I hope that answers the question. I could go on for quite a while. But I think it also is just simply acknowledging and embracing, not downplaying and negating the real differences between men and women.
01:20:50: One of the other things, there's physiological differences, there's biological bodily differences. They're not just, you know, a lot of people say, well, if we just socialize our children differently, society would be different.
01:21:03: You know, you see the way some of these countries are going and companies, even the corporate influence on, the corporate attempt to make everything gender neutral.
01:21:12: Well, if we just socialize boys and girls, they'll all be the same. No, that's not true. There's no way to eradicate the differences between boys and girls.
01:21:22: And if you're a parent or a grandparent or if you have nieces and nephews and you're around little kids, you see from the moment they are born, boys and girls are different and these differences are
01:21:33: God -given. And so therefore, they're God -glorifying. One of the things that's very interesting in this article by DeYoung, he points out how from the very moment of birth, he says this, one -day -old female infants respond more strongly to the sound of a human in distress than a one -day -old male infant.
01:21:56: Just think about that. From the moment of birth, from before birth, we're designed, we're made with these inherent innate differences and they're not bad.
01:22:05: There's nothing wrong with women who are living as women, as God created them.
01:22:11: There's nothing wrong with men. God didn't make a mistake in creation. And by the way, I would say that a particular dad or dads might be doofuses, but they can't be content in remaining that way.
01:22:28: They've got to, especially if they're Christians, their duty is to repent of being a doofus, being somebody that is allowing their wife and giving her the burden that is unwarranted to place upon her, the role of leader in the family.
01:22:49: As I've repeated many times in this show, I think that a man who seeks to be a tyrant in his home over his wife and children, he is a doofus.
01:23:01: He's a doofus if he is not asking his wife for her counsel and advice, especially in areas where she may have vastly more experience than her husband, or knowledge, might even be the role her employment has for her that has given her, you know, a great amount of information.
01:23:25: The husband would be stupid not to get his wife's counsel. And lest we forget about a very biblical concept of a godly woman that is not the stereotype that feminists like to accuse anyone who is conservative of embracing that the wife is merely to be barefoot and pregnant and never stray from the kitchen and the bedroom, let us not forget
01:24:07: Proverbs 31, where there is a lot of extremely complimentary, and there's no pun intended there, complimentary verses,
01:24:22: God -breathed verses about a woman who is to be viewed as a woman who has worth far above jewels.
01:24:35: You're talking about things like, let's see here, she brings her food from afar.
01:24:47: She rises also while it is still night and gives food to her household and portions to her maidens.
01:24:53: She considers a field and buys it. From her earnings, she plants a vineyard.
01:25:01: She girds herself with strength and makes her arms strong. She senses that her gain is good, and we could go on and on with the images of this godly woman that utterly annihilate the view of a woman as a household slave.
01:25:23: So I just wanted to remind our listeners about that as well, and that these are God -breathed truths. So therefore, obviously, since you are a man who treasures and boldly proclaims the inerrancy of Scripture, you would not see any of this proverb in contradiction to patriarchy.
01:25:41: No, not at all. In fact, I think there is, in God's design, in the way that he made men and women, and the way that God has designed for the church and the home and the family and the community to function, there is a place for women to exercise their
01:25:58: God -given gifts, their intellectual abilities. I like to point out, we actually read through Proverbs as a family for devotions, and the passage you just mentioned,
01:26:09: Proverbs 31, I made it a point to stop and say to our kids, I said, you know why we have the home that we have?
01:26:14: I said, because of your mommy, because I was busy. We moved here last year, and I was neck deep in figuring out how to be a pastor, and it was my wife who was looking up properties and setting up times for us to go, and by the grace of God, we have a nice little home in Carlisle, and it's not because I was doing the work, it's because my wife was doing the work.
01:26:36: So it's a great misnomer. It's a stereotype. Honestly, it's a disparaging, very disparaging stereotype of stay -at -home moms, of women who are living out their
01:26:49: God -given calling, both as wives and mothers, and as grandmothers. I try to, I'm very thankful for, this is not true in every marriage.
01:27:00: We have people in our church who, the wives are in the workplace. We have many couples where the wife and the mother is at home, and it's not always possible because of financial burdens, but I would say that every couple should look, as much as they are able, to have the wife and the mother stay home with the children, because I think that is
01:27:24: God's design, and women are just equipped. Again, look at the biological realities.
01:27:30: Men cannot have babies. Men cannot nurse babies, regardless of what you hear in the insane swirlings in our current cultural moment, but men and women, it takes a mother and a father to raise children, and we don't say because,
01:27:50: I had a professor in seminary that I really loved. His name is Kent Hughes. He pastored a big church in Wheaton, Chicago.
01:27:58: Yeah, I've interviewed Kent. Yeah, I think you told me that before. Yeah, he's a very good and godly man, and he was raised by his mother, and I believe his aunt.
01:28:09: He says, I was raised by women, and Kent is a man's man. He's a very godly man.
01:28:14: He wrote a book recently re -released on disciplines of a godly man, and his father died when he was young.
01:28:27: We don't take the exceptions, though, and say, well, this is equally as good, or it's the same.
01:28:33: No, I mean, you see, there's so much fallout in our culture today with the frequency of single motherhood, with the absence of fathers.
01:28:44: This is not good, and it's not God's design, and if we're looking to God, we're looking to his word for all of the wisdom that we need to live in a way that pleases him, and that is a blessing to each one of us if it means following the pattern that he has laid out and living in his grace according to the design that he created, and that is good for both men and women.
01:29:11: We have an anonymous listener who says, Can you provide for us any telltale signs that a man who is either seeking leadership in your congregation or seeking to begin to court your daughter, or if a woman is single and men are approaching her romantically, how they could weed out those that you believe would become not only inappropriate leaders in a church, but leaders in a family.
01:29:52: I'm immediately reminded of a book that was written over a decade ago by Votie Balcombe, What He Must Be If He Wants to Marry My Daughter, published by Crossway.
01:30:04: But anyway, you got any ideas? Yeah, it's a great question. I think you should look at the whole man.
01:30:11: You should look at, honestly, his background, his parents, his family life. We have young men in our church who want to be married and want to find a good and godly woman, and the advice
01:30:24: I give them is live the way that God wants you to live now and be pursuing the things that are pleasing to Him.
01:30:32: Being in worship regularly, being in the Word, having a vocation and sticking with it, not going from job to job, looking at the whole man, look at his devotion to the
01:30:46: Lord. You know, not every man is going to be as fluid and as fluent in prayer or as drawn naturally to spiritual things, but no matter what the measure of faith that you have, this is one of the things
01:31:03: I wanted to say. If you are going to be a husband and then, if the
01:31:09: Lord wills, a father and have children, you are the spiritual leader in the home, regardless of your wife's interest or aptitude for theology and for the
01:31:19: Scriptures and for teaching the Bible. So, yeah, you should look at who...
01:31:25: First of all, you just have to get to know them, of course. That's obvious. But find out, ask questions, like, how did you come to know the
01:31:33: Lord? What is your devotional life like? Who are some Christian men that you look up to and admire and respect?
01:31:42: You know, there's guys we could name who are not believers, who have a tremendous amount of influence and a wide audience with young men because of their, you know, emphasis on building men up.
01:31:55: You hear the term, the manosphere and red -pilling and all of this. But, you know, if we don't want our young men to be captured by those kinds of influences, captured and captivated, then they need to be looking to godly leaders, godly men in the
01:32:13: Church. And seeing them, you know, I think of the verse from Hebrews where, remember your leaders, those who spoke the
01:32:22: Word of God to you. You know, ask a man who his influences are. Who is he listening to? What kind of stuff is he...
01:32:29: You know, podcasts are huge today. Are you listening to... Are you having good godly influences or are you listening exclusively to to men who aren't very wholesome?
01:32:42: By the way, folks, I would heartily recommend after this show is over, at some point, that you listen to a recent interview with a very godly young woman,
01:32:53: Katie Garraway, the daughter of a very long -time friend of mine, Pastor Vincent Sawyer of Victory Baptist Church of Port Charlotte, Florida.
01:33:04: Katie and her husband, Caleb, they operate a ministry called
01:33:10: Remnant Ministries and she was recently on the program, July 19th, in fact, to discuss courtship and its advantages over dating.
01:33:19: And she had a lot to say about things very similar to what this listener asked.
01:33:27: So I highly urge that you look that up. Look up... You could even just type in the search engine
01:33:33: Katie Garraway, G -A -R -R -A -W -A -Y. And speaking of Votie Baucom, I can imagine the terror that must go through a young man's mind as he is seeking the approval of somebody as imposing and ominous as Votie Baucom, a very large, muscular man who is a martial arts champion, although a very gentle and soft -spoken man as well.
01:34:04: But I am sure that he can strike tough. Not a man you're going to mess with. Right. Let's see here.
01:34:13: We have Bobby in Hartsdale, New York, who has a question for you.
01:34:23: He says, Do you think that this has to be a subject of study, that pastors begin to gather men in their congregations together for Bible studies and small group studies in the event that a church really needs to be transformed over this issue of patriarchy?
01:34:53: Yes, absolutely. Thank you for the question. I think it needs to be happening.
01:34:58: I happen to be Presbyterian, so at our regional and national levels, it's a body of men.
01:35:10: I think there needs to be... One of the things that I started when I got here, and I think it's still going, and we've got a good group of men who come on a regular basis.
01:35:19: It's an encouragement to me, but we meet twice a month, very early in the morning for prayer.
01:35:25: I was very, very encouraged. We had some visitors, some very special friends of mine who came and visited our church, friends from my time in the
01:35:35: Army. They just happened to be in town, and they visited. My friend's wife commented to me.
01:35:41: She said, It really, really stood out to me that in worship, the men in your church were singing.
01:35:49: I think the same would be true if someone visited Grace Baptist. When you hear men singing, it really leaves an impression.
01:35:59: And so, yeah, to answer the question, absolutely, this is something that needs to be studied. It's something that needs to be taught.
01:36:05: I preached from Proverbs 1 on Sunday, and I made it a point to speak to the young men and to say to them,
01:36:11: As go the young men, and as go the men of the church, so goes the church. Not to say...
01:36:17: I mean, women have done phenomenal things in church history. Christian women are doing phenomenal things today.
01:36:23: I just read something from Johnny Erickson Tata, and so powerful, her witness and her testimony and the amazing reach of her organization to people with disabilities.
01:36:35: It is unbelievable, and we praise God for it. But there is a wonderful godly
01:36:41: Christian woman who's also Reformed and believes in the place of the husband and the male leaders in the church.
01:36:49: So absolutely, this needs to be taught. It needs to be properly understood, because when it's improperly understood, then yeah, you have abuse, you have all kinds of problems.
01:36:58: But I would say, just from my anecdotal, very still new to the pastorate perspective, the trend and the tendency today is for men to not lead and to not exercise the authority with the boldness and the strength that we need to in order for the church to be functioning properly.
01:37:21: We have CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who says,
01:37:27: Don't you think that the church needs to be very careful not to even unconsciously adopt the world's understanding of manliness when they are seeking for leaders?
01:37:41: There are men that fit the stereotype of machismo who are arrogant, which can be mistaken for honorable sense of confidence.
01:37:53: And there are men who are bullies, and on and on we could go in describing men that are very often the world's perfect picture of masculinity, and yet they are a danger to the church, in my opinion.
01:38:09: What say you? Yes, absolutely. That's a great point, and thank you for raising that.
01:38:16: Yeah, there is a, and I see it even in kind of the
01:38:22: Christian manosphere world, there's this kind of caricaturish concept of the man and the masculine guy, and there's distorted and bad ideas of what it means to be a man and to be a leader.
01:38:41: However, I will say this, the best thing to do is, again, come back to the Word of God and come back to the Lord Jesus Christ, because as I study the
01:38:49: Scriptures, I'm preaching through the book of Mark. I took a break during the summer, and I'll start up again in September.
01:38:57: As I reflect on the character of Christ, Jesus perfectly balances tenderness, and He is
01:39:05: Himself the Son of God, and He's full of love and compassion and mercy, but Jesus also is full of perfect strength.
01:39:15: So the short answer is to come back to Christ and to look at Him, to look at Jesus, to know
01:39:21: His love and His mercy, and to be shaped by Him. That's the way to avoid every manner of error, including having men who are toxic and abusive and domineering.
01:39:36: But I would say, again, to me, where we are today, the tendency is far more in the opposite direction, where men are reflexively not leading and not stepping up and not speaking in ways that they need to be into every kind of issue.
01:39:52: You know, I mentioned a story on Sunday during my sermon. I had a friend of mine who was getting some work done on his home and some repair work, and the insurance company was involved, obviously, and then they had a contractor, and the contractor said to him, don't worry about the deductible.
01:40:15: I'll just charge that to the insurance company. You know, it takes courage, and it takes a certain amount of boldness to, first of all, to just not go along with that.
01:40:25: It takes some moral backbone to say, no, I'm not going to do that, and then also to confront the one who's trying to basically steal and have no integrity.
01:40:37: That's the kind of masculine leadership that we need, men who are not afraid to take a stand and to live as godly
01:40:45: Christian men in the world, and it needs to be at every level and every place and every community, and it's going to have a tremendous effect.
01:40:53: All right, we have a question from an anonymous listener that I'm going to ask you now and have you answer when we return from our final break.
01:41:01: Sounds good. The listener says, it is not my intention to get your guest in trouble, but I was wondering what his views are on women being leaders in industry, in the workplace, and in politics.
01:41:17: All right, we'll get you to answer that when we return from our final break.
01:41:23: It's going to be much shorter than the other breaks. If you have a question that you would like to ask also, please send it in immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.
01:41:31: chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages.
01:41:53: James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here, excited to announce that my longtime friend, Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading to Washington, D .C.
01:42:03: for the G3 Ministries Regional Conference on the theme, Just Thinking About the Bible. The conference will be held
01:42:09: Thursday, September 15th through Saturday, September 17th, and I'll be speaking along with Stephen Lawson, Josh Weiss, founder of G3 Ministries, and Daryl Bernard Harrison and Virgil Walker, co -hosts of the
01:42:21: Just Thinking Podcast. To register, visit g3min .org, that's g3min .org,
01:42:27: and click on Events. Your registration will include a ticket to the Museum of the Bible nearby the conference venue in Washington, D .C.
01:42:36: So join me and Chris Arnson September 15th through the 17th in Washington, D .C.
01:42:41: for the G3 Ministries Regional Conference. Register now before they run out of seats at g3min .org,
01:42:48: that's g3min .org. Stop by the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Arnson while you're there.
01:43:00: Have you noticed the gap that exists between the Sunday morning sermon and the Sunday school classroom or the small group study?
01:43:08: So often we experience great preaching from the pulpit, but when it comes time to study God's Word in those smaller settings, well, let's be honest, it leaves a lot to be desired.
01:43:19: It seems like it is nearly impossible to find good curriculum out there today that is true to the
01:43:24: Word of God and is built upon sound doctrine, much less it's hard to find curriculum that will actually teach people how to study the
01:43:31: Bible. Hi there, my name is Jordan Too, and I am the Executive Director of the Baptist Publishing House.
01:43:37: Our ministry is dedicated to providing local churches with sound Bible study resources.
01:43:44: Our quarterly curriculum is titled The Baptist Expositor, and for good reason.
01:43:49: We are Baptist, and we exegete the scriptures. If you want to have a curriculum that teaches your people how to study the
01:43:55: Word of God, I invite you to go to our website, download a free study, baptistpublishinghouse .com.
01:44:02: May God bless you. Hello, my name is Anthony Eugenio, and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, New York, and also the host of the reformrookie .com
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01:48:03: Unlike other book sites, they make no effort to provide every book that is available or popular because, frankly, much of what is being printed is not worth your time.
01:48:13: That means you can get to the good stuff faster. It also means you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic, heretical, and otherwise faith -insulting materials promoted by the secular book vendors.
01:48:25: Browse the pages at ease, shop at your leisure, and purchase with confidence at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.
01:48:32: Order online at CVBBS .com, that's CVBBS .com,
01:48:38: or you can order by phone at 1 -800 -656 -0231, that's 1 -800 -656 -0231.
01:48:49: Please let our friends at CVBBS know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
01:48:59: As a mother, I was looking for a magazine that would include devotionals that I could quickly do before school and had theology and doctrine made very simple for children to understand that they could read themselves or I could walk them through.
01:49:16: There's tiered content so that you can go to the older group and learn more or go to a younger section and it's even more simple.
01:49:25: Join us on our journey in developing our magazine entitled Ignited by the Word, which engages and ignites the hearts of our children and young people in their walk with God Order Ignited by the
01:49:39: Word for your home today at ignitedbytheword .org Learn more information and subscribe now at ignitedbytheword .org
01:49:49: and receive your first two issues free and put good literature in your children's hands.
01:50:00: If you love Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers.
01:50:09: One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Arnton is doing is
01:50:15: Daniel P. Patafuco, serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.
01:50:21: Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society. Their mission?
01:50:27: To foster belief in the credibility of Scripture as the written Word of God. They go to various churches, schools and institutions to publicly display a rare collection of biblical texts along with a fascinating presentation by Mr.
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01:51:40: Visit historicalbiblesociety .org That's historicalbiblesociety .org
01:51:48: Thanks for helping to keep Ion Sharpen's Ion Radio on the air. And folks,
01:51:54: I want to remind you about an event this Saturday that I hope that you will support in some fashion and if you live in Queens, New York or even more close
01:52:05: Bronx, New York there is an outreach going on by Soul Fishing Ministries at Yankee Stadium because of the fact that Joel Osteen a notorious false teacher is going to be speaking there at Yankee Stadium and Soul Fishing Ministries will be there to hand out tracks and be a witness for the true gospel of Jesus Christ.
01:52:32: So if you want to find out more about how you can be involved go to soulfishingministries .org soulfishingministries .org
01:52:39: and click on events. I also want to remind you about the Ion Sharpen's Ion Radio Pastors Luncheon if you're a man in ministry leadership and you'd like to attend this event on Thursday, September 22nd 11am to 2pm at Church of the
01:52:53: Living Christ in Louisville, Pennsylvania featuring keynote speaker Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries Send me an email if you'd like to attend
01:53:02: ChrisArnson at gmail .com ChrisArnson at gmail .com Put Pastors Luncheon in the subject line
01:53:07: It's absolutely free of charge and all men in ministry leadership are welcome whether they are elders, pastors and by the way that's the same office deacons, parachurch leaders if you are in that category and you are a man please send me an email if you'd like to attend
01:53:25: ChrisArnson at gmail .com and put Pastors Luncheon in the subject line Pastor Jeremy you heard that question about can women in your opinion be biblically faithful while being leaders in the corporate world in the business world and also in the realm of politics?
01:53:44: Yes and to address the first part of the question you're not going to get me in trouble with anybody
01:53:55: I think my elders understand where I'm coming from and I think they appreciate watching me you know this is a personal emphasis of mine in our church and I hope in the community to encourage men and challenge men to step up to the plate
01:54:14: I think yes women can you know I can't tell a woman in my church that she's in sin for pursuing political office or looking for to be a leader in business or education but it's just it's not going to be the norm it's never going to be the norm because men were created to rule and to exercise authority and you know look at the vast expanse of human history and it's yes there's terrible examples of repression and control and abuse but that's not a reason to jettison and get rid of God's good design with men leading with God glorifying strength so women can do
01:55:00: Calvin said a woman can be queen she just can't be a pastor and I just think it's important to remember what are the what are the
01:55:11: God -given innate differences between men and women and you know are you are you exercising are you leading are you are you doing what you're doing as a woman you know one of the things the army
01:55:22: I'll just say this I got a message from a friend who was at the National Infantry Museum outside of Fort Benning and there was a little display for the first woman company commander and obviously celebrating that fact and talking about the gender -integrated army you know one of the things about seeing women in the military and there are plenty of women in the military my alma mater the
01:55:44: United States Military Academy has an ever -increasing number of women who attend but to me as I look at the way that women are used and the way that they serve the closer it tends to obliterate or it tends to that's a strong word but it tends to diminish their femininity and it tends to cause them to look more and more like men and so depending on what field you're in you know there's fields that are more conducive to a woman you know acting like a woman and leading like a woman instead of trying to be a man and I mean that both in demeanor and attitude and speech and in appearance so if that makes sense yeah and I would even add to that it really troubles me to see women wearing a police uniform fireman's uniform fireperson's uniform especially when you hear about requirements being diminished and made easier for ladies to be involved in those things
01:56:51: I'm not saying that there is no role in a police force for a woman involving involved in investigation and things like that but to be out there on the typical beat with your billy club and your gun on your side
01:57:09: I just it bothers me greatly and I think it's putting women in and that's not because I have a poor view of women
01:57:17: I think it's because I have a high view of women and that they should not be subject to that we have a minute for you to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners actually less than a minute so if you could summarize it well
01:57:31: I'd simply say that don't be ashamed of being a man or a woman because in the beginning
01:57:37: God created all things and he said they were very good and we're being recreated all of us in the image of Christ and we're to be we're calling us to be mature men and women in Christ together not downplaying or denying or disparaging our differences but celebrating them and giving thanks for them and living them out to the glory of God Amen and once again the website for Redeemer Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Carlisle Pennsylvania is
01:58:07: RedeemerOPC .org RedeemerOPC .org and I also want to remind you about sixdaycreation .com
01:58:14: the ministry of Charlie Lieber who is a member of Redeemer OPC in Carlisle and who's going to be my guest next
01:58:21: Tuesday to discuss the suicide of his son and how he as a Christian is seeking to respond to that that website is sixdaycreation .com
01:58:30: I want to thank you so much Pastor Jeremy for being such an extraordinary guest today I look forward to your return to the program
01:58:37: I want to thank everybody who listened and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater