Can Patriotism Become an Idol?

Does patriotism ever become idolatrous? Well that's what we're going to talk about today on Conversations with a Calvinist that begins right now. Welcome back to Conversations with a Calvinist and my name is Keith Foskey and I am a Calvinist and I'm welcoming today my good friend and second time on the show, Jake Korn.

He is an army chaplain. He is a wonderful brother in the Lord. I do believe he's a reformed Baptist. I can say that because we share a mutual love. So you're not like that guy, Matthew Henson, who I have to say is my not yet Calvinist friend.

You're my fully Calvinist friend. That's right. I am confessionally committed. Awesome. Well, thank you for being with me today, Jake.

I am really just trying to catch up to the amount of visits on your show as Matt Henson has had. I can't let him beat me.

Well, we're going to have to have you on about six or eight more times, but I'd love it because I enjoy our conversations. So what we're talking about today is really a subject that you and I have chatted about before and we felt like this would be important because today, the day that this will go live is the 4th of July, Independence Day, a very important holiday.

And it's a holiday that my family does celebrate. I do believe it's an important holiday and it's a holiday that we should be thankful for as Americans. It's the day that we declared our independence from England and we now have our United States because of what happened on our Independence Day.

And of course, we're not the only country that celebrates its Independence Day. There are other countries that celebrate Independence Day. So this is something that we do every year, but oftentimes this celebration of American independence is brought into the worship time on Sunday mornings.

And I've seen many churches that end up tailoring their entire service around the concept of Independence Day. And then it becomes, well, we're going to do that on Memorial Day, or then we're going to do that on Veterans Day, and then we're going to do that on these different days.

And you end up several times a year having days that are not only driven by United States holidays, but are really sort of rah-rah services for stoking the patriotism fire. Now, I know, Jake, that right now you're serving in the military.

You're serving actively as a chaplain, but do you still see this in churches? Are you recognizing that this is happening in churches that you're involved with? Or how is this affecting you specifically?

Patriotism in Worship and the Problem of Idolatry

Yeah, so this has definitely been prevalent for my entire Christian life. I do just want to throw a disclaimer at the beginning that none of my views expressed during this podcast are representative of the views of the United States government.

These are just Jake's views. This is not chaplain. This is not the United States Army. I usually don't have to say that, but this issue is just kind of going to cross over a little bit. So I just want to make sure that people understand this is my opinion.

So I grew up in the West, and out West, I would say it is not something that I have seen as prevalent as down here in the South. Now I'm in Savannah, Georgia. When I was a pastor, I was a pastor in North Florida, which is essentially South Georgia.

And, you know, the further East and South I got, the more, not just prevalent, but the more acute these instances of patriotism within the service became. And I remember the first time it became noticeable to me, I was just volunteering in a choir at a very large church here in Savannah.

And it was, I remember it was a 4th of July service and they asked me to sing a special and it was not a song I'd ever heard. And it was a more modern song. It was just, you know, thanking God for the blessing of living somewhere free.

And I was like, okay, I'm super into thanking God, right? Like, I don't mind that. But there were no, none of the traditional patriotic hymns. Well, then I start working at a smaller church, a smaller church, right?

A community church. And there they were much more hymn based church. And I will say distinctly more dispensational, which I think there's an overlap as to how much patriotism and how much dispensationalism go together in a church for theological reasons.

And then I saw the Pledge of Allegiance and three or four patriotic hymns. And, you know, it ramped up in intensity. So, I mean, this is a real thing and it's a real question that pastors and elders need to be considering.

Right. Like in our RPW conversation, I'm not, I'm not seeing a specific directive in scripture. So with the wisdom of the body and the both sola and tota scriptura, what are those left and right limits that make the most sense?

Yeah, absolutely. And and I do, I want to give a little disclaimer as well. And I've been telling myself I was going to do this. So I'm going to do it now. Forgive me if this is totally out of out of left field.

But I've been saying at the beginning of the show, I want to mention to the audience, your help in this show really helps me. And one of the things that you can do is if you're enjoying the content, if you're enjoying today's show and you're listening to this on YouTube, you can hit like and subscribe.

If you're listening to this on Facebook, you can share this with someone. And if you're listening to it on a podcast, you can subscribe to the podcast. That would really help me out. But I also want to add a disclaimer about this subject.

Both Jake and I, as I already mentioned, we are men who would consider ourselves patriots. Jake has has dedicated his life to serving our country as a chaplain. Well, one of the one of the men who's willing to bring the gospel in a place that it's I would say would be difficult because you are under the restrictions and structure of the United States military, but you're still bringing the gospel.

And I'm so grateful for men like you. I have a son who's serving in the United States Air Force. And I pray that men like you are in his life and are able to share the gospel with him. I know he grew up hearing the gospel, but, you know, like I said, you're a patriot.

You're serving. I believe I'm a patriot. I've I've not only have I allowed my son to serve, but I've been proud of his service. And he's he's currently serving overseas. And I'm grateful for that. So neither one of us in this conversation are intending in any way to diminish the concept of patriotism.

We're not intending to diminish the the flag or the the the the role that America has played in in in being a light for good in many areas and doing good things around the world. And so, you know, we're we're not those guys.

I totally agree. And I think that's the most important thing to start off with, because these things do tend to devolve into a sort of, you know, name calling or devaluing our opponent on the other side.

If you there's fireworks going on in the background of my neighborhood as well. You know, if I start to say and I've experienced this, hey, I'm not comfortable with that, or perhaps that expression is too much on the Lord's day, the pushback automatically is, oh, well, you're not patriotic.

And and I just don't I don't think that's helpful. What we're looking for is a rightly ordered life, right? God first, family, country, however, you know, that works out. And it is the role of a pastor elder to shepherd his flock and to say even this good thing can possibly become idolatrous.

You know, I always think of the the bronze serpent, right, from from the children of Israel's time in the wilderness that that they needed. It was important. Jesus uses the bronze serpent as an example to describe his salvation.

But we forget that there was a time that the children of Israel kept it and and they had to destroy it because they formed an idolatrous relationship with that thing and not the God who empowered what that thing accomplished.

It was his his goal. And I feel the same about America, God's providence that America was formed for his will, for his purpose, either, you know, at sometimes as an agent of his goodwill in the world and perhaps sometime in the future or even now, you know, as a subject of his wrath and injustice.

Right. So but but a rightly ordered patriotism. And I even think there's there's some realm of patriotism on the Lord's Day that's good to talk about. And then there's also stuff that says maybe we push that to a Wednesday afternoon get together with the church.

She don't I mean, there's but it's not a you're a patriotic and I'm not is what I say. Absolutely.

And and just as you were talking about that, I have I've had the benefit of serving many funeral services for men and women who served in the armed forces. And I've been to the Jacksonville National Cemetery.

If I've been once, I've been 50 times. I mean, I've you know, I've been so many times that I know the people who work there and I know the young men and young women who fold the flag and who present it to the spouse or the next of kin.

And I've seen that flag folded so many times. I've heard that the playing of taps, which I finally I found out they actually don't play taps. The guy holding the bugle, it's it's fake.

Yeah, it's rare. It's rare that you get an actual player now.

Yeah. Yeah. Which is I mean, it's fine, but people don't realize that guy's not really playing it. He's just holding it. But we but when they hand that flag and they say, you know, please accept this flag as a as a in honor of your of your loved one's faithful service on behalf of the president, United States, please, please.

That's that's always touching. That's always a moment of of, you know, where I say to myself, this this person earned this, whatever the whatever it may be, whether they served there four years and got out or whether they served 20 years and retired or whatever.

This person did something that was of value. And I'm grateful for and I'm grateful to be able to honor them in their at their funeral. So so, yeah, yeah. The idea of not being a patriot, because we're going to question the subject of having worship services that center around, you know, I mean, because honestly, there are services that happen today.

I'm certain because we're recording this on Sunday that's going to go out tomorrow. There are services today where I'm certain songs which sang about America were sung in worship America, America, you know, and it becomes a question of, OK, what did we come here today to do?

Yeah. And and what's interesting is I know you know this, but the audience may not. If you take a hymn book, there's a whole section in the older hymn books, even the modern the one that we have is the one that Lifeway published back in the early 2000s, which was called the Worship Hymnal.

It was the new Baptist hymnal, but it was also called the Worship Hymnal for churches that weren't Baptist. So we weren't Baptist. So we bought the Worship Hymnal. There's a whole section, Star Spangled Banner, America the Beautiful.

Yeah. My country tis of thee. Yeah. Yeah. And for a moment as a former, well, I guess I wouldn't call you a former worship leader, but one who that was your job for a while, right, was to lead worship.

And I'm sure you still do. But I mean, that was your job title as a worship leader. How did you respond when people came and said, I think we should have sang America the Beautiful today?

Patriotic Songs, Church Tradition, and Dispensational Assumptions

So, you know, when I started working for this small church, I had come from just a different background and I came into the church and at the time it had a traditional service and a contemporary service.

And when I first came in, the traditional service kind of had its own crew running it. And so like at first I was not invited to kind of take part in that. And then so I ran the contemporary service and I didn't we didn't do any hymns.

And honestly, this is so funny. So the church had done bulletins up until I showed up and my first big patriotic holiday, I don't remember which, we did not do any patriotic songs. I played a, you know, a transition video with a bit of a patriotic thank God for where we live kind of thing.

And and there was a nice patriotic prayer. And I told a bit of my story, but we just didn't do any patriotic songs. Well, at the time we printed one bulletin that had traditional on one side, contemporary on the other side.

Well, the traditional service folks looked at the contemporary song list and saw that we didn't have any patriotic songs. And they came to me and said, well, why aren't you guys doing any patriotic songs for a service that they're not even going to?

Yeah. You know, like like their service was entirely patriotic songs and ours wasn't. I said, like, you know, one, like you didn't come to the service. And I think we struck a nice chord. You know, it was like today.

It was a Sunday that wasn't actually the fourth. I think it was like July 2nd. And, you know, we acknowledged it and prayed for the country. But no, you know, they said, well, you have to sing sing songs.

And I said, I the classic Calvinist answer. By what standard? By what standard do I have to? And and I'm sad to say I was a young new pastor and it started more of a row than I wanted. And I started to really learn about, you know, this church's tradition and and their theology and how that influenced this choice and their opinion of America.

And, you know, this was a very dispensational church, which I was completely new to dispensationalism, frankly. You know, and for them, there is this theological concept that God created America so that America would establish Israel, the nation, you know, and and thus right.

There is this this overlap. It's not just God's providence, right? It is his direct acting in an eschatological frame. And the pastor, the outgoing pastor who was kind of in his retirement years, you know, we had a long talk about it.

And I said, you know, for my generation, we're a bit of a skeptical generation. It's a tough sell for you to tell me that like how much honor you want us to have for the country in this service. We are coming in like a post-Vietnam, post-Roe vs. Wade mindset.

Well, now we're post post-Roe vs. Wade. Praise the Lord. Amen. Right. You know, but this was 2015 or so, you know, like for us, the concept of America is is it's a much more murkier water, whereas the traditional service congregation, these are, you know, some some silent generations of folk who served in the Korean War, you know, less gray, right?

More black and white. And they would say, well, you know, my patriotism is my faith. And I let me stop you.

I don't mean to interrupt. You know, I have heard that on multiple occasions. And that strikes such a such a negative chord in my heart to hear someone say my patriotism is my faith. And I can't believe one, I can't believe people would say it.

But also, I don't know exactly what they mean. I think I know what they mean. I hope I'm giving them the grace to think that it is a charitable reading. Yes. Yeah.

The charitable reading is is, you know, God first intertwines our faith into how it's expressed in this country that has a First Amendment right to religious expression. That's the charitable reading.

Yeah. But but nonetheless, like like that's not just toes on the line. That's like dancing on the line. And the pastor encouraged me to say that that's a good thing. And I'm like, man, I don't I don't know if it is.

And and so I kind of took a very watchful stance. I you know, I was fairly new. I gave my opinion to the pastor and the elders. But I said, like, you know, I'm not running the church. I'm not an elder yet here.

So I'm going to honor your decisions. And I'll tell you, the next patriotic holiday, I paid attention. And I am not as you listen to our last conversation. I'm not somebody who's going to judge pretty intensely somebody's worship style.

I don't care if you're raising your hand, if you're dancing, I'll think you're weird, but I'm not going to think you're, you know, unbiblical. But I paid attention. And for the most part, that traditional service, right?

No one ever raised their hands. But by golly, the next patriotic holiday, when we sing patriotic songs, there are some folk who raise their hands in the patriotic songs with a sense of this urgency that I didn't see for, you know, how great they are or, you know, some other great hymn that the direct subject is is God.

And to me, I began to say, like, look, man, like this is not an inherently sin issue, but we have an idolatry issue here that it's just too blurry. And in my opinion, the answer to that is for the eldership to draw a hard and fast line, right?

This is a you know, if your American flag causes you to sin, pluck it out of your sanctuary. You know what I mean?

Because it's better. And there's the quote of the show, just say.

If you're that's the that's the Calvinist in me, right? We're a bit iconoclastic, right? Like, it's kind of our nature just to say, might be too close to an idol. So let's burn it like that just is our history.

But with good scriptural warrant to say, like, I don't need that. If there's a question, I don't need it.

But clarify, you are not encouraging anyone to burn a flag. Of course not. I don't want anybody leaving that comment below.

Oh, he said, burn a flag. I tell you, man, after five years, maybe six years, six years. Paschke, six years, I encourage them to let's move the flag to the lobby. And it caused a riot. It caused a riot.

It caused a near church split. I mean, to gently say it's time to just move this to the lobby for lots of reasons, right? Not just the idolatry issue, which I don't even think like I didn't make that a primary issue, but also like, hey, man, what if, you know, there was an Iranian Christian who is not even a citizen that for whatever reason made it to our service?

And they have some weird opinions about America. Should we put a barrier of entry to our worship service? Right, because we're coming together under the banner of Christ first. And it's a it's a tough it's a tough issue, right?

Like it's a there's there's not an easy answer. I mean, I guess there's the easiest answer, which is just don't include it at all in your Sunday morning in the Lord's Day. Right. But but like how that works itself out in the life of a church is is something that should be dealt with some sensitivity.

Excuse me, some caution, but I don't know.

The Flag in the Sanctuary and the Meaning of Church Symbolism

Yeah. And I would I would add a thought to what you just said, because you mentioned the the Iranian guy showing up. And obviously there's that's possible that could happen. I do. I would go a step further maybe in my argument.

And I do think what you said is completely true. So I'm not questioning the the reality that that could happen. We could have an Iranian. We could have anybody could show up that. But it's. The the place that I have the issue with the flag in the sanctuary, since you brought up, we'll kind of deal with that.

And I do have I have a quote from the Internet I want to read. And we're going to talk about that, too. But the thing that I take issue with with the with the flag in the sanctuary is when we are looking at the chancel and I don't call it a stage, I know a lot of people call it a stage.

Some people call it a platform. You know, I call it a chancell because that's the traditional name. And it keeps me from saying the word stage. I don't think stage is sinful to say. I just prefer not to say stage.

So when we look at that platform and we begin to think about the the focal the focal point. And I do think there are three focal points on the chancel. You have the the place where the word of God is is held.

We call that the pulpit. Some churches have moved to a table or to a music stand or whatever. But I do think that that place has a place of honor and for good reason. In fact, the very idea of Protestantism is the is the is the upholding of the word of God that, you know, the church is the pillar in support of the truth and the truth is in is that word.

So having that place. The second, of course, is the place where we serve communion. That is the bread and the cup. And that's that tends to in most churches sit right in front of the pulpit, whether it's one level below on the steps.

It's still right in front of the pulpit. It's still center. It's still in a place of prominence. And depending on your church, us being Baptist, our baptistry sits behind the pulpit. And therefore these three things center our mind on on God's word and God's sacraments, his the two things that that picture us as believers.

We have the the baptism, which which enters us into the covenant community and the and the Lord's Supper, which which is what we do as the covenant community community. And I don't mean to belabor this, but the point I'm making is for years there were there are videos of me online.

I mean, I preached for years with it, with flags behind me. One was American flag, one was a Christian flag. And I always I always looked at those videos and would always sort of grimace because I would I look like I look like somebody who is a politician.

Because behind me were these two big flags that were between me and the baptistry. And they stood as like almost like two pillars of, you know, we are this is who we are. And so, yes, I do think it could be offensive to the Iranian.

But but but to me as a believer, I think we're we're placing it in the wrong place. Yeah. Yeah.

I completely agree that the symbolism is so important, you know, as brothers of the reformed tradition. Tradition isn't usually our main watchword, right? We're we're soul scripture people, but we still like traditions and we do things for a reason.

And there's always been this kind of symbolism of where things are placed and why they're placed there as a way of just communicating the gospel with all of our senses. And I'm completely into that. And I completely agree that there is a certain baggage that is carried by just just the the visual, because you or somebody made a choice.

This goes here and this is why and this is at that level. And this is why. And when we look at scripture, then as our guide, scripture actually tells us the opposite, right? Scripture actually says we're citizens of heaven.

Scripture actually says there's no, you know, barbarian, Scythian slave or free scripture does not give us the picture that says combine these things. Scripture says the opposite. Now, I say that to say this, the Lord's Day, right?

We look at that as something that is set apart special, a gift of grace. It is something that we value and is valuable. But the church should not just be about what do we do during that hour in 15 minutes?

We are about walking together through life, you know, all week long. And as pastor elders, we're shepherding our flock all seven days of the week, which is why to me, when I say, hey, let's keep the flag and the flag songs out of the Lord's Day celebration, because that set apart.

But it is no less part of the life of the church. If we then go have a banging barbecue where we have a flag, praise God for our blessings. Tell stories about veterans in honor. You know what I mean? It is not less that it's put there, but it is rightly ordered, in my opinion.

Now, it's weird to say, because I'm an Army chaplain, right? But I agree. I have a theological perspective on chapel that is very much informed by my faith as a Reformed Baptist, a confessionally committed Reformed Baptist, that chapel is not church.

Chapels and churches are very different, right? A chapel is a stopgap measure. If you're stuck in the hospital or you're traveling on a cruise ship or you're deployed to a foreign location where you are separated from your church, and specifically what I mean by that, separated from the elders under whom you are under their spiritual authority, where you can still, you know, in a similar capacity without that sort of authority, receive the gift of grace of preaching of the gospel.

But a chapel is not a church. And so the symbolism that is, you know, present in a chapel is just going to be by nature different because it's not under authority. I, as a chaplain, I am given to the Army by an organization similar to a missionary.

I am not a pastor with authority. I cannot, with authority, determine. I can preach from the pulpit, right? But if a brother comes to a chapel service with his mistress and not his wife, I don't actually have any ability to, you know, properly do church discipline to him.

And so that order matters, right? So the symbolism in the chapel service is going to be very different. In a church setting, though, which is what we're talking about, we are shepherding our flock. And so why is it less to say the Lord's Day is set apart for this?

This is an hour that we set apart for this celebration. But this barbecue or this parade or this special time of gathering, whatever, how is that less? And if you're fighting too hard for it to be put into that special set apart time, I, as your pastor, immediately say, we need to examine the heart on that and people don't like that at all.

No, nobody wants to be questioned on this issue either. Nobody wants to have to defend anything. They just want to, they just want to say it. They just want to say, this is, this is the way it is.

I tell you, and during that whole phase of my life, I mean, there was a town hall called and the elders were defending their choice because ultimately they went with the choice. Well, I was an elder at the time.

We went with the choice to move the flags. But there was a shouting match in the church. And I mean, it was definitely thrown at me that y 'all aren't patriots, y 'all don't have any patriotism. I'm thinking, man, I have, I have buried friends under that flag.

I have stood vigil as it is draped over coffins. I've handed it to people I don't know. I have delivered multiple, you know, funeral messages under that flag. I have fought and bled for it. Like, don't, don't tell me I'm not patriotic.

I'm just trying to get us to be rightly ordered. And my goodness, why would you fight against that? Now, I don't want to be guilty of saying, if they're saying you're not patriotic, I don't want to be guilty of saying, well, you're not faithful to Christ, but as a pastor, it is kind of my job, right, as a pastor elder to say, hey, brother, here's what the Bible says.

Let's check your heart on it. The Bible does say our citizenship is in heaven. How does that rate with what you're talking about? Man, people don't like that. There's a great story of John Piper. He went through this, you know, at his church, you know, and he is a much wiser man than I am as far as pastoring and and rightly dividing the word goes on most issues.

I'm more right on some issues, you know, and amen, you know, and he came to a similar place where eventually you just have to say, like, hey, right is right and wrong is wrong. And under the authority of this church, how we rightly divide the word, this is what we've decided is going to happen for these reasons.

And I assume you love Jesus and you should assume I love Jesus. And so under the authority of the word of God, here's how your elders are rightly deciding this decision. And that might not be what your elders.

That's why we're that's why we're for Baptists and not Presbyterians. If the church next to me and their elders faithfully came to a different decision of where their flags go, OK, right. As long as as long as they're they're separate from as long as they're always reforming right to to what scripture calls us to, that decision is what's right for their flock because the idolatry issue is what's different.

If that idolatry issue is growing like yeast, then that thing just needs to be cut out. You know what I mean? I'm sorry.

No, no, you're right. And the part that that you keep mentioning about the idolatry issue, and that's very true, I think also you hit on something earlier. I want to circle back. And that is the idea that.

You you didn't sing the songs, the church that you were at, they saw that you didn't sing the songs, you said they had the bulletin, they looked at that. And did they was there ever a time that they that that anyone got upset because you didn't sing How Great Thou Art or you didn't say, you know what I'm saying?

Yeah, it's like this is a this is a issue that seems to rile people up in there. And it's like this where you get upset. Tends to be where you place value. Amen. Yes. And so when I think about like when I when when in 2008, when our church went through the issues of Calvinism, I understand why people were upset.

I understand why the the few people who really disagreed with me because they really thought that Calvinism was dangerous. They really thought because they had they'd heard these things about it. I get it.

And I did try to be gracious, even though there was some some that made it hard because they they came hard against me and accused me of things that weren't true. But ultimately, I get that, you know.

And so if somebody comes to me and says, hey, man, you know, the songs that we're singing, I'm concerned with the theology of those songs. OK, all right, well, let's talk about what it is you have a concern about or if even if, you know, even though I know this whole Hillsong Bethel thing, there's a lot of argument and we can talk about that another time.

But you know what? Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, we did during the during the the RPW conversation. So if that issue came up, at least I know the heart of the person they're concerned about. They're concerned about biblical integrity and theology in these things.

Absolutely. And then we get to this issue. If a person comes in, they're concerned about the flag. I do want to give them the grace to say, OK, you think that by not having this flag here, that that is somehow diminishes the value of the men and women who fought diminishes the value of our freedom that we have to to celebrate and worship freely.

All these things are good. But you understand that's not my purpose. My purpose is not to diminish the value of these men or the my my my purpose is so that we do not confuse what we are here to do. Yeah, we are here to worship.

Yes, men and women have died for our ability to worship. But we can celebrate them another time.

We're here to celebrate Christ. And they they probably would want us to focus on Christ, frankly, especially those who have died and went to be with Christ. Oh, yeah. Amen to that. No, I completely agree with you.

I think, you know, if it was sanctity of life Sunday, right. And we didn't mention sanctity of life. And someone came up to me and said, hey, you didn't mention sanctity of life. There's more cause for that, because then I think a clearly biblical stance.

Right. This is clearly something that scripture endorses, is that we defend the weak and execute justice, right? Justice. But if I come to Fourth of July and I don't sing my country tis of thee, there's not a clear biblical warrant to do so.

It's extraneous, you know, at best. And like you said, you know, yes, people have fought and died. I'm alive, but you would think that my presence in that conversation would disarm them as I'm saying, hey, member of that community, don't worry, checked in with them.

We're good. Let's keep doing the gospel. But it didn't it didn't impact it whatsoever, which says to me it isn't actually about that. It's it's about our addiction to traditions. Right. We talked about that last time.

The tradition of the church is an addicting drug. And we have really good ways of of transforming how we view scripture in order to inform keeping our traditions the way we like them. And if we could be more honest about that, I think we would probably have a better way.

But it's we we want to justify our traditions scripturally rather than write scripturally, derive our traditions, if that makes sense.

No, absolutely. And and I want to I want to bring up what this guy wrote. I shared it with you before the show. And I think this is as good a time as any to bring this in, because there are there are guys out there who would say pastors who would say we need this flag.

We need patriotic songs. We need a Fourth of July service. We need a service that centers on America. And I've even seen churches. Maybe you have seen them, too, where they would invite like senators to speak or something like these big Baptist churches that have access to big names.

I mean, I mean, doggone. What was his name? Mike Pence, you know, was the vice president. I'm sure I don't remember it specifically, but I'm sure there was a time where he has spoke in a church on a Sunday morning during the sermon time where he spoke about America rather than really focusing on on on Christ.

But this is a guy and I am going to mention his name for the sake of not for the sake of defaming in any way, because I don't know this brother. And I do count him as a you know, he's a brother. I believe he's a pastor.

But his name is Kyle Cadell. And Kyle, if you ever hear this, no, brother, we're not I'm not downing you in any way. I actually want to interact with what you've said here. In fact, I'm going to tag you in this on Twitter so that you can see that we're going to interact with this.

And I hopefully we do so in a respectful way. But this is this is what Kyle says. He says, praying in advance for those young pastors who get inspired by the evangelical Twitterverse to make a statement by removing the flag from the sanctuary that's been posted there for twenty five years and was donated by the late brother Herschel's family.

That's, of course, a made up name. The Monday will be a long one. Now, his what he's saying, he's he's being tongue in cheek and he's, you know, being kind of funny. But what he's saying is that a lot of pastors that are young, they get on Twitter, they get on Facebook and they get inspired.