Doug Wilson: Full Preterism, Historical Christianity, 1 Cor. 15, Orthodoxy vs Heresy @blogmablog4870

There is a climactic moment.

There's a last chapter where we all turn around and look at the book of human history.

And we say that was the best story ever.

Right, but there.

With the full predator's view of human history.

It's not a story at all.

It's just one damn thing after another.

Hello, and welcome to the apologetic dog where it's our heart's desire to contend for the gospel of

grace.

So within the logo of the apologetic dog you see first Timothy 620 where Paul is telling Christians

To all be apologetic dogs to guard the deposit that's been entrusted to you.

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material and understanding who the right Jesus is that he is the sovereign King and Lord.

Overall, and he's the second person of the Godhead and scripture tells us you must not only believe in the right Jesus

But you must receive the right Jesus on the terms that he prescribed which is by faith apart from

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more of my time to be able to contend for the gospel in these Apologetic endeavors.

So thank you for joining me.

I just want to give some quick announcements.

Coming up in February.

I will be speaking at a conference that Jeffrey Rice it will be hosting and has

invited me and dr Sam Frost to speak about the dangers of full preterism.

And so this is important because people have questions and I think it's so good to be able to

point back to our Creed's and confessions to show that our rich historic faith has

fundamentally denied The fact that our blessed hope is in our past but it's something that

we long for in our future.

And so dr. Frost and I will be talking about Probably a number of different things.

So that is coming up in February so mark that on your calendars if you're in the Tennessee area and that

you would love to join because That's just the pre -conference.

Soon after the pre -conference will be the rest of the conference that is discussing a why Calvinism which is

important conversation to be had about God is sovereign and you are not and so what that looks like and

so Those are some things coming your way.

And so speaking of eschatology We're gonna be getting in that today as well because eschatology

matters I love the guys out on that YouTube channel eschatology matters Brandon wood Josh Howard's

and Tim Bashong.

Thank you men for contending for the faith and telling people your view of the end times Directly

impact how we live here and now and so today we have a special guest with us

Pastor Doug Wilson.

How are you, sir?

Doing great.

Pastor Doug.

Thank you for taking your time to just meet with me today to talk about some interesting Very important matters of

the faith.

And so before we do that, is there Anything you would like to tell the audience about where they can find you

some of the work that you've been.

Maybe writing some new books lately things like that.

Yeah.

We set up my blog is called blog and may blog and the address is Doug

wills all lowercase Doug wills comm and We set it up such that

if you look at the front page Scroll down a bit.

You can there's a portal to pretty much everything.

I'm involved with Logos school new st. Andrews the church everything.

So that's the one stop Shopping spot.

Awesome, well.

Well, we don't know each other, but I'm from Jonesboro, Arkansas.

So I'm in the Deep South so you may hear that accent going on.

So that's where that's coming from.

I.

Like your beard by the way, well, thank you.

It's more seasoned than mine.

So I hope to grow into a beard like that one day, right?

You don't want to get a white beard too quickly.

Yes, sir, so in Arkansas There have been Two churches that

have been openly preaching full preterism.

And so it's just been something kind of weird that I've had to address.

I serve as a pastor and elder at twelve five church church plant pastor Doug's will keep us in prayer.

We just completed three years and it has been amazing.

And so a lot of people come to me with apologetic questions.

And so full preterism has kind of been on the rise in Arkansas, and it's been so strange.

And so I just want to thank you for the work that you've done and you're no stranger to the world of eschatology.

You wrote a book on it.

I did you recognize this one.

I do.

Yes, wrote that one.

I also did a commentary on the book of Revelation.

That is.

The overlaps.

Yeah. Yeah.

Well, I just want to encourage people to go check out your work and material.

I also want to thank you for teaming up with the guys at eschatology matters Brandon wood and Josh

Howard and Tim Bashong.

Great guys, I actually was.

Just a few weeks ago spoke at a conference with them in Indiana and so I was asked to preach on the

resurrection of the dead and so I knew I need to call in Doug Wilson.

Just to get just to have you weigh in on some of these things because what I immediately start pointing people

to.

Is.

The the heresy of hominidus and felidus and so.

This is something the scripture speaks explicitly about.

And Before we dive into this passage of scripture that talks about the resurrection of the dead how this

is attached to our blessed Hope and the timing of Jesus's second coming.

I wanted to get your thoughts on this real fast, too.

Because you've done a lot of work talking about how full preterism is not just a difference of

opinion of eschatology.

But it's a completely different world view.

And so what I've started to notice is in order for I believe one of your videos said all 14

full preterist out there.

In order for them to survive they have to be parasitic.

They have to say well.

We're just disagreeing on tertiary matters.

You can still welcome us into the fold.

And so that's been so much of the problem here in Jonesboro, Arkansas as you have these full

preterist.

Saying that they're Christians and so people kind of Unawares understand that they're kind of coming in and

just want to welcome them with open arms.

And so I kind of have that hard task of saying no.

No, this is a different Christ.

Maybe we can talk about this.

This is a different gospel a different blessed Hope and so do you think that's a fair characterization of what they

have to do in order to stay alive essentially?

Yes, I think that's fair I don't want to say that everybody who embraces who

gets to the point where he says I'm a full preterist.

Then he's not necessarily unsaved.

Sometimes people sometimes save people get pretty seriously muddled and I think that

that happens with some.

But I do believe that full preterism as a system articulated understood

defined and promulgated is Not the Christian faith it it it

unravels the whole thing and the there are a number of ways to come at this

but the Christian Church has been divided on matters of eschatology from

from early days the first centuries.

But the one the one thing that Orthodox Christians have always agreed on

Eschatologically has been that full preterism is wrong.

But.

That's the only thing that's the only thing that we've agreed on because the the Apostles Creed

Which goes back very early?

We believe that Jesus Christ is going to come again to judge the quick and the dead.

So this confession that human history has a terminus human history has an end point

at which Christ comes and the and the dead are raised.

That is inconsistent with full preterism and the Orthodox Christian Church

for 2 ,000 years has Always confessed that and that's the one thing that we

agree on which is that full preterism is wrong.

I and I would argue that this is not simply I just said 2 ,000 years.

But I think it's much older than that because when Jesus is talking with Martha

After Lazarus dies She's a faithful Jewish woman first century.

She doesn't have Thessalonians in her possession.

She doesn't have the book of Revelation in her possession and She says to Jesus.

I know he will be raised at the last day.

Speaking of Lazarus So a belief in the final resurrection of the dead at

the last day was something that faithful Jews Like Martha were confessing

before there was a New Testament so this so this goes all this goes way

back and when you when you look at the error of Hymenaeus and

Philetus You're and and Paul comes off the top ropes when he's dealing

with them, right?

He says they're they're making a hash of everything.

When he says that if if you adopted the full Preterist view and

Paul is writing this near the end of his life.

These are in the pastoral his pastoral letters near the end of his life.

And if you believe that everything was fulfilled by 70 AD.

You have to you have to be saying that Paul is coming off the top ropes calling their teaching

Gangrenous and ungodly Upsetting the faith and he's saying this because they were a

few months off in their calculation.

Right.

Pastor Doug, do you care if I read that passage real fast and we can begin to come back this.

Because the Apostle Paul's talking Timothy and warning him about false teachers, right?

And and he already addressed One of these gentlemen in the the first letter so here in

verse 16 of 1st Timothy chapter 2 He says to Timothy.

But avoid irreverent babble for it.

It will lead people into more and more ungodliness and their talk will spread like gangrene.

Among them are hominid yes, and Philetus who have swerved from the truth saying that the

Resurrection already happened.

They are upsetting the faith of some so that's that's pretty heavy Language here and

pastor Doug.

I've been interacting with full Preterist and it's so interesting because they want to say well Look, the only

thing that Paul is addressing is the timing not the nature.

So of course Paul and and these two individuals must be in agreement on the nature

of the resurrection.

What's your first thoughts when you hear something like that?

Then if the only disagreement is timing then you have to answer my my question.

Why is Paul so upset over?

Them being a few months off where he's come.

He's coming at them for introducing a gangrenous teaching that's going to introduce

ungodliness and Why because they say the resurrection happened in 62

ad instead of 70 ad.

Are you serious?

Pastor Doug you got you got to understand that the temple was still up.

It hadn't been destroyed yet, and they were still under the law.

So by hominid and Philetus by them saying the resurrection already happened.

What they're really doing is saying that the law is still going to be this yoke of bondage.

And the temple can stay as is so somehow.

Pastor Doug.

Those are two determining factors that are in the the backside of Hymenaeus and Philetus his

mind that totally just undo Christianity.

That's what I get a lot of times that the temple is relevant in this conversation and they're still under the law.

The problem is that Paul doesn't mention the temple or the law.

He mentioned mentions the resurrection.

He's he says my problem with what these guys are saying is what they're saying about the resurrection.

Right.

He doesn't say.

He doesn't say anything about the law and Paul.

Paul is more than capable of handling Judaizers who he

Addresses that in Galatians.

He addresses that in Colossians.

He knows how to end Romans.

He knows how to attack people who are Promulgating

Illegalistic Judaism or who want he any he says

this is what you're doing.

You're.

He talks about their problems with the law by using nouns like law.

Right.

Here not here about the resurrection, right.

And so the the main feature here is the timing and so everyone has to interpret what all else is

going on.

But what he is purely addressing is to say that the timing of the resurrection and so

these false teachers would have been familiar with what the the Hebrew Scriptures would have Talked

about like in Daniel 12 about the resurrection of the dead right.

This is something that all saints have have in the back of their mind when it when we talk about eschatology

and so He only focuses in on Paul only sees it necessary here to focus on the

timing.

And so if someone is teaching that the resurrection of the dead has already happened when it hasn't it's

anathema language.

It's it's poisonous.

It's cancerous.

And he said he uses the term swerved from the truth right.

Makeshift wreck of the faith essentially and so that's yeah.

Exactly because if if you take the The position that the

Orthodox Christian position maintains which is that the general resurrection of the dead

happens at the conclusion of human history as Opposed to someone who says the general

resurrection Happens in the middle of human history That's a difference and it's but it's

a difference over the meaning of history.

It's it's it's not a difference if it's just a few months apart if Paul says no

Hymen is has always a hot been a hothead.

He's jumping the gun.

It's not going to happen for another five years.

Okay, that's that's not a dispute about the meaning of history because when you're if you have a

dispute about the meaning of history It's a dispute about the meaning of life and then the meaning of the new life and the

meaning of the gospel.

You this is one of those things where It's in one of my blog posts on this I said it's like

theological Jenga where you're pulling out this thing at the bottom of This of the

stack of blocks and you think it's just one block.

I'm just pulling this out, but the whole the whole edifice rests upon this as

Paul's language indicates, right?

Yeah, I play Jenga.

You want to be careful not to go straight to the bottom.

Well.

The big point that I want to stress here like like you're bringing out is the timing here.

Paul's is addressing here there's other scripture that we'll get into here in a moment about the nature of

the resurrection and so pastor Doug in Jonesboro a

lot of people really look up to you and your content and I was real excited to be able to have you on

because These full preterists you probably are aware of this, but they will grab your content and other.

You know men of the faith that we look up to and so they're trying to infuse themselves in

To orthodoxy, right?

And so I just want to let you know that your labors haven't been in vain.

In fact, it's reaching us here in the Deep South.

Just you know the the cautions the dangers that are attached to full preterism and so I just wanted to thank you again for

that and I've actually had a few incredible platforms to speak to other pastors in our

local area of saying Jeremiah.

What is full preterism and why is it?

Why is it bad?

Why is it dangerous?

And so I've been able to warn kind of sound that that bullhorn and I've been

able to connect with other men that I believe you're familiar with.

Dr. Sam Frost.

I've had him on a number of times.

To really Get his insights because you know He was a big leader in this movement for about a decade and has come

out of it and wrote many books.

Which I think you're familiar with some of his writings.

Yeah, I read his why.

Why left.

Full preterism was a very very good book.

Oh.

Yeah, definitely want to recommend the audience to go check out that book as well.

And even you'll you'll appreciate this even our homeschool groups here in our local area

I've been able to speak to Board of Directors and just explain to them all the dangers of how this

Redefines our blessed hope enough and it what's interesting is when people Intuitively when they hear that

everything is already fulfilled that's prophesied and terminated in 70 AD in our past.

Most people are like are you serious?

The second coming already happened the resurrection of the dead happened and the new heavens a new earth is already

and no not yet.

Most people Intuitively think that's kind of wild and I remind them.

Yeah, this is only about 30 years on the scene.

I mean, that's why you rightly in the past said there's only about 14 of them, right?

Right and so Keep us in prayer here in the Deep South because we're constantly having to fight

these battles.

And so it's just interesting when you're able to sit down and open up 2nd Timothy chapter 2

you can talk about Paul saw it necessary to talk about things like the timing because this has

you know Embedded in it all of history connected to it, right?

And so the resurrection already happened then our blessed I hope is not future but it's it's

realized and so I I do want to get your thoughts here on the nature of the Resurrection and

so I feel like one of the best places and we can go to some other scriptures if you have in mind but first Corinthians 15

is a chapter where Paul Addresses that very topic.

And so when I'm talking with full preterists that say, oh, well, let's just assume that hominidus and

philetus Are in agreement with Paul on the nature of the resurrection.

And so one of the points I immediately go to pastor Doug is well, that's not what he's addressing there.

But we have other passages of scripture where that's exactly what is in question.

So do you have any thoughts before we dive into some of what Paul said in 1st Corinthians 15?

Yeah, I would I would want to frame it this way because in 1st Corinthians 15 Paul

Draws a straight line link between Christ's resurrection and ours.

Right, so when we talk scripturally the nature of Christ's

resurrection is the same as ours and If you go with the full preterist understanding it has

to go the other way.

Right.

So the nature of our resurrection would be the nature of Christ's.

Now what that means is let's say a brother a Christian calling Demetrius died

in 69 AD.

Okay, he died and was buried and then we come back in

71 AD.

After the culmination of all things after the resurrection has already happened.

Or.

Let's put it right before Whatever date Hymenaeus and Philetus.

Put it right.

Can we come back to that grave and find the body?

Okay, now if we can come back to if someone died before their resurrection

and we come back a year after and Go dig the dig the body up.

Is there a body that can be dug up?

Now if that's the case, you know, if you say well the full preterist says you die and you

receive your new body in heaven and Your your body is in the coffin

still.

Well, here's my question.

Could we do that with Jesus?

All right, if our All right, our resurrection is

Paul says in first Corinthians 15 Christ's resurrection is the first fruits.

It's the it's the down payment.

It's the earnest that what happened to him is going to happen to us.

Therefore what you're claiming happens to us is what you're claiming happened to him.

Right now right that that means if you you could say with a straight face Christ was raised

and his body is still in the.

Grave.

You're just a theological liberal.

That's that's.

And.

And the Apostle Paul says our faith is vain we're still in our sins.

This is all a big bunch of nothing.

Right, well, I appreciate you kind of setting that up because as we're gonna look at this passage now, I believe this passage

Versus 20 and following kind of we'll kind of stop at verse 26.

But this was also I believe I heard you say a passage that led you out of dispensationalism, right?

But or at least the the pre -millennial dispensational because we look at what the end is talking about with Paul.

And it's the the parousia and the resurrection of the dead.

And so I think that's interesting that this passage does seem to kind of lend itself away from

dispensationalism.

And in my opinion is the death knell to hyper pretorism and so I'd like to look at this

passage and get your thoughts on it because it does talk about such a tight unity of What

what it meant when Jesus was resurrected from the dead what that?

Told us as Christians what happened to us one day as well and surely we'll be restored to new life

now, right?

Spiritually, this is eternal life that we know the true God and Jesus Christ to me sent.

But there's something we still long for and look look forward to that that bodily aspect of what it means to

be Human, so first Corinthians 15 20.

There's a Wonderful context here that Paul has been talking about in verse 20 He says but

in fact Christ has been raised from the dead the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

For as by a man came death by a man has also come the resurrection of the dead for as an Adam all dies.

So also in Christ shall all be made alive.

But each in his own order Christ the firstfruits then at his coming Those who belong to

Christ then comes the end when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying Every

rule and every authority and power and then the postmillennial say for he must reign

until he has put all of his Enemies under his feet the last enemy to be destroyed

is death.

I gave your your post more crowd a plug there.

But the reason why I kind of stop it at verse 26 is because what is death, right?

I've noticed this is important when we're talking about the resurrection of the dead.

Jesus died.

What does the phrase Fallen asleep mean all these in my opinion pastor Doug

are Connected to the buildup that Paul is getting with when he says than a toss right death and

so I think you have to conclude consistent with what Paul is arguing here is this is talking about

a Physical death the the termination termination of physical life.

So what are your immediate thoughts?

Absolutely, and in the full preterist vision human history just goes on and on and on and on.

Sin is never completely destroyed.

Death is never completely destroyed.

And yet here in first Corinthians The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Doesn't that mean it will be destroyed?

So they have to say this is a spiritual death, right.

Exactly, but then it unravels backwards.

Why would the first fruits of the harvest?

Be completely unlike the harvest.

Right, why why how can we insist on the bodily resurrection of Christ?

He comes out of the grave.

The tomb is empty and His body that went in the grave is transformed.

That's the that's the reality and that's the first fruits.

Well in verse 23 here each in his own order Christ the first fruits, whatever the nature of that

is.

It applies to what follows.

So the first fruits of the harvest is the same as the harvest.

Christ the first fruits then at his coming those who belong to Christ and that means the people who are

who are raised at Christ's coming are Participating in the same kind of bodily resurrection

from the grave that Christ experienced.

Yes, that that kind of gets into the discussion later in first Corinthians 15.

They they continue to talk about the the nature so I believe it's around verse 35.

Maybe I can get you to weigh in on this as well.

But someone will ask how are the dead raised with what kind of body do they

come?

And so as I was studying this Paul was kind of mad at the just the nature of the question itself.

Because it seems like it's being asked in a mocking tone.

Like that just seems impossible for a physical resurrection to even take place and Paul is just

saying look.

You already believed in Jesus's resurrection, which you received by faith.

And so, you know Resurrection is not only possible, but it's a reality.

And so when he says in verse 36 you foolish person It seems like he is saying it's unthinkable

pastor Doug for Christians to deny a future Bodily resurrection for believers

as our blessed hope.

And so, you know kind of the rest of the passage Paul gives many Illustrations about how this is necessary a seed has

to die in order for it to be raised and transformed, right?

Right.

So this this Adam sin -cursed body.

Guess what is going to die?

Physically, right and.

When it dies and goes in the ground it does so looking at verse 37 there.

It does so as a bear kernel.

Right, so.

But according to the full preterist the body that goes in the ground is not a kernel at all.

It's not a seed at all.

It just goes in the ground and rots and you get your new body in heaven.

You don't plant a seed in one place so that the plant will grow in another place.

Right.

The the the women who Witnessed Christ's resurrection met him at

the place where he was buried they went to the garden where he had been buried.

The angels appeared where he had been buried.

And if our Death and burial is going to be like his

that means the crop is going to come Where we were planted.

Now, this is something when when Paul's preaching to the Sophisticates of

at Mars Hill in Acts 17, they listened to him up until the resurrection part and

Then and then they said oh, this is just this is outlandish.

There's something about the resurrection of the dead that is offensive to the the person

who wants to be Intellectually sophisticated it seems child.

It seems childish.

It seems very Simplistic and you know, you mean to say it

the the Greeks Socrates believed in the immortality of the soul.

That's that's something you can believe and be sophisticated.

But if you believe that your body is going to come out of the dirt.

Right.

That seems like Good great good grief, but here this is one of my favorite points.

I'd like to intrude here and it's not really an intrusion.

It goes with this the the.

The atheist materialist likes to make fun of the Christian for saying that God formed Adam out

of dirt.

Right, that is oh, come on Human you're using.

The human beings were created out of dirt by God and I'd say well you believe the same thing.

Only you leave out the God part.

We've we've got men and we've got dirt.

Right.

You've got dirt primordial goo that we evolved out of and we have dirt that

God superintended in fashion man out of but both of us believe that Organic

matter came from inorganic matter and then you think that Christians are absurd.

Because we think it's going to happen again.

Right, we believe we believe that I'm gonna die my body's gonna be dead.

It's gonna go in the ground and then it's gonna be raised again, but that's not the

first time right, I.

If I when I'm raised from that when I'm raised from the dead, I will come into a new existence.

Just like I did in 1953 only it'll be much much better.

Won't be it won't be corruptible won't be dishonorable.

Won't be you know.

It won't be all the things that Paul lists in first Corinthians 15, but the living life from nothing

life from death.

That's something that happens and everybody everybody acknowledges it.

Yeah, well.

Something I wanted to also touch back on because you mentioned Adam because I get how the atheist worldview They read the

account of Genesis and it's absurd to them.

It might usually Retort back is just saying look I Would rather look at the

eyewitness testimony the one who was there and gets to tell me truth.

That's that's a worldview is the God of truth gets to reveal to us What the truth is not just my

speculation and assumptions on you know given sets of patterns that I don't know always have

consisted the same way and Pastor Doug a couple weeks ago.

I got to preach on this passage first Corinthians 15 20 through 26.

And so I began by saying look look what Paul is emphatically saying, but in fact Christ

has been raised from the dead.

Paul only gets the benefit of declaring This is truth.

In fact because the Word of God said it would happen.

So what's interesting is Paul goes on here to talk about Adam, right?

For as in Adam all die and so one objection pastor Doug that gets thrown back at me

as well when we go back to Genesis chapter 2 God said the day that you sinned and eat

the the tree of knowledge of good and evil then you will surely die and Their response

is well Adam didn't die physically that day.

So this must be a spiritual truth.

And so I say well keep reading right because essentially Adam and

Eve sinned and we see consequences of the fall and a part of that was man.

Returning to dust.

Oh that sounds like the best definition of death we could see in Scripture that God used the dust of the ground to

form.

Adam breathed into him the breath of life and it was As a result of sin Man is

going to return back to dust.

So is that a good take on on saying well There's more going on.

Then simply Adam not physically dying that day and I even go as far as say he should have.

But a substitute was made.

God took animal skins animal physical death had to happen on Adam and Eve's behalf.

So that just proves that Adam and Eve should have died.

But God but God was merciful gracious loving we get to see kind of more of God's character put on display.

That's I agree.

I would say amen to everything you just said and I would add a couple of a couple of additional

Things.

The first thing is that I define death not as cessation but as.

Separation.

So.

The day that Adam Ate of the fruit.

He was separated from fellowship with God who was his life.

Okay, so and you can see that when they heard the Lord walking in the cool of the day Coming down to walk in the

garden.

They hid they were separated from him.

And.

So there was a there was a covenantal death that happened right away because of the separation of the

severing of fellowship.

Physical death is the separation of the soul and body.

Okay.

Now the physical death that they went through years later

Happened because of the separation of fellowship with God.

In other words, it was a cascading set of deaths.

There was an immediate covenantal death.

Separation from God if they had been killed on the spot.

There would have been no injustice done right if they'd been physically killed.

And the reason they weren't physically killed It's because God is merciful.

But God is not merciful.

Just okay.

I think I'm feeling Kind today.

As you pointed out there were there were animals that were killed by God and Adam and Eve

were covered by God's mercy, but but that mercy Ameliorated

the death.

It did not.

It did not indicate that God changed his mind about the death.

The day you eat of the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden you shall surely die.

Ezekiel says the soul that sin shall die.

Paul says in Romans the wages of sin is death but you can have death

without Ceasing to be so in Ephesians 2.

We were all by nature objects of wrath and we were dead in our transgressions and

sins In which we used to walk.

So you've in Ephesians chapter 2 you have people walking around in death.

They don't cease to be but they're in a state of death.

Which Adam and Eve were the moment they ate from the fruit of the tree?

Yeah, so there's layers to this because you know, you mentioned kind of a covenantal relationship with Adam and

God and so this is where the full preterist is.

Yeah, it's covenantal death.

Everything is covenantal and from my estimation it's actually built on a type of

dispensational hermeneutic because when they are talking about a Covenantal Adamic

death they are referring to the ethnic people of Israel, right?

They're not looking at the deeper principles of who the true Israel is.

And so I loved what you said death is more separation, right?

Alienation as Calvin put it and so there's a lot going on in the garden and so

may the whole man at least is Dichotomous, right?

He has a physical element made from the dust of the ground and there's that spiritual element.

And this is inextricably linked together.

And so when I read Genesis 1 2 3 Death would be

touching all of who man is and so is that another good way of just kind of expounding on death?

You can't separate it to merely be just spiritual or just physical, but it's also

Covenantal and touches both features of what man is.

Correct.

Absolutely.

It touches everything we are and it touches everything we touch.

And if someone says yes Yes covenant.

It's not a physical death because they didn't die that day.

I'd say okay.

Let's come always come back to Jesus when he came from the dead.

Was that a covenantal resurrection or When Mary Magdalene came up and

touched him.

What what was she doing?

Well, what was happening?

It was real.

And so that's kind of Paul's whole beginning argument in this great resurrection chapter.

He begins with.

The resurrection of Jesus his suffering his death his resurrection that was according to the Scriptures.

This is Christianity 101 and I believe he's saying don't don't forget that right?

This was all according to the Scriptures and now some of you are beginning to doubt that Resurrection is possible.

And so he points to Jesus as the principle as the rule and as the paradigm,

right?

And so yes the paradigm and the biblical word for that paradigm would be first fruits because he

uses it in verse 20 and he uses it in verse 23 and.

Thus if the if the first fruits is wheat the harvest is going to be wheat.

If the first fruits is the bodily resurrection from a grave.

Then that's what the harvest is.

Hmm.

What are your initial thoughts?

I've heard this objection.

I kind of laugh because I know what I say initially.

But Jeremiah the resurrection the dead the first fruits are talking about Old Testament

Israel, so this is kind of a corporate body.

Covenantal resurrection.

This isn't necessarily for Christians.

Yeah, I'd say.

What did.

What did Jesus do?

Hmm, so going back to the first fruits principle pointing to Jesus.

It's always.

Yeah, I like to point out that.

That.

Those who have fallen asleep is not just a reference to Old Testament

Saints, but it's also used to describe those that saw our Lord's resurrection.

Some who have fallen asleep and some of those are still, you know alive among you today.

So falling asleep when we look about the account with with the Lazarus.

This is a term for Saints both Old and New Testament.

And so exactly this this corporate body resurrection view just falls flat, right?

You can't point to Jesus like you're like you're pointing out not consistently.

They have to redefine first fruits.

They have to redefine what it means to be fallen asleep.

Right because falling asleep is a reference to Saints Old a New Testament and it means that they physically died.

Right now we don't believe in soul sleep but this is talking about the blessed hope that Christians have that

we long to Wake to a new day a new dawn to see our Lord Jesus

face to face.

So it is as though Metaphorically that this is just merely sleep, right?

We're gonna wake up the general resurrection of People outside of Christ.

They don't get to look at death as merely falling asleep, right?

So I wanted Yes, I got some amens from Pastor Doug.

That's what I'm talking about.

And so this going back to this passage so much is wrapped into this type of

Resurrection of the dead it's bodily and then we we get in verse 24 more

timing indicators.

I don't know how much you've interacted with full preterist.

But their whole claim to fame is the timing indicators the timing indicators and you've actually said When

when you get a few good nuggets, right?

You had this theological hammer and you started just smashing everything in to 70 AD with these timing indicators.

Is that how you put it before?

Yeah, probably.

Yeah, well you said it one time I laughed I was like that's so good because much of Scripture

some of Scripture does seem to point at what's what Jesus and all of it discourse is about to happen with the Destruction of the

temple and and perhaps with this generation.

I know there's a lot of talks within orthodoxy that You know continues to sharpen one another but

what I've really pressed on people saying look, let's actually answer back with a

Stronger timing indicator and I believe Paul lays it out clear as day here because

in verse 24 or verse 23 But each in his own order Christ the firstfruits what Jesus's

resurrection looks like as a promise to us.

Christ firstfruits then at his coming right as at his returns the presence of when King

Jesus Comes back.

He says then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

So we're starting to see at Jesus return is going to be when we who belong to Christ

Resurrect from the dead and then verse 24 then comes the end.

Okay, because full preterists like to redefine the end always to mean to be the end of Covenantal

Israel at 70 AD.

So do you want to comment as we're kind of going through verse 24?

But then comes the end.

Is that very important to understanding Paul?

Yeah.

Because if you say well, that's just talking about Covenantal Israel then if

you if they place the end in 70 AD Then that means Jesus delivered the kingdom to God

the Father in 70 AD.

He had destroyed every rule in every power by 70 AD and

he's no longer reigning.

Okay, so If I said to a full preterist is

Christ reigning now.

I think given given their understanding of verse 25, they'd have to say no.

He must reign until until.

Hmm that's good.

Because you mentioned this earlier full preterism has the world as we know it This is the new heavens and new earth right that

that's just spiritual language to say that when we are in faith in Christ

We are in the new heaven and new Jerusalem.

And then to your point earlier Everything continues as is and so

they may be point to what Jesus, you know accomplished at Calvary to Accomplish to defeat the

penalty of sin the penalty of death but this worldview can't actually

articulate how we interact with the physicality of Death right its presence

right because it's going to continue and so then comes the end Paul talks about Earlier

in 1st Corinthians upon whom the end of the ages has come and so, you know

There's been so much work talking about the already and not yet Jesus is first coming brought his

kingdom right inaugurated at his first coming and then we're gonna see that one day at the end of

this timeline right that Essentially Adam kick -started that's gonna reach an end

and that's gonna be the consummation of the age to come.

So, I didn't know if you wanted to touch on that as well.

Yeah, according to the full preterists basically Jesus had a reign that lasted for about 40

years.

That's the millennial reign to them.

Right.

That's the millennial reign and that's an awful lot of millennial reign to get into one

one generation.

I Guess I would argue that it simply doesn't do justice to the

cosmic scope of the language here right.

It's sort of like you're this is a setup for a major letdown.

That's it.

That was the Millennium.

You mean I've lived I've lived 30 years longer than the Millennium did.

That's not that's not cool.

Yeah, and that's why I'd say like intuitively when people start hearing what full preterism is they they're

unconvinced.

I mean because spiritual warfare essentially goes out the window right.

Because The devil and all them have been already judged and thrown into the lake of fire at 70

AD right and so It it redefines Christianity.

They have this hammer where everything gets reinterpreted into 70 AD, right?

It has to be read backwards not progressively the way that scripture was handed down to us.

And so we're kind of building up to this major timing indicator that I believe full preterism has

zero to to respond with of real substance because.

For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

And so when people come to me or I try to help warn people of these things, there's still death.

There's still sin.

There's still wars all the effects of evil around us.

And this is a promise that as we look around us and we still see the effects hurts and pains of of

evil.

Sin and death.

This is a reminder that Jesus has not returned yet.

Because when he does all these things are going to be judged with the apocalypses, right the great revealing of the

great Coming of our Lord to judge the world in righteousness.

Exactly.

Exactly, so the last enemy what you what you're doing is saying.

Well, you have to understand that verse 26 the last enemy to be destroyed is death

doesn't mean that death is destroyed.

And and I say what why did why did God give us a Bible.

Well, this is a damning death pastor Doug and Adam didn't die that day.

Yeah, so if it's a damning death so that that Death and sorrow when when the Bible says death and

sorrow flee away.

What you're doing is saying it they don't so I have the sensation

basically of standing in a full preterist view of history and I feel like I'm standing

in a corridor of Wax linoleum on the floor and an acoustic tile ceiling.

That's eight feet you know eight feet up and this this Tiled hallway

with acoustic tiles up above my head eight feet tall Goes on forever and ever and

ever and ever and and that sounds basically that sounds like hell.

Basically the the Christian the Christian hope Is realistic about the existence of

evil and wickedness and suffering and affliction in this world.

But we have a story arc and in the store in the story arc There's a pivot

point which is the death and resurrection of Christ.

There's the advancement of the kingdom.

There is the the fulfillment of the Great Commission and then

there is a Climactic moment.

There's a last chapter Where we all turn around and look at the book of human history

and we say that was the best story ever right, but there

With the full preterist view of human history.

It's not a story at all.

It's just one damn thing after another.

Yeah, and it's frustrating right I mean I feel the the words of the Apostle Paul to the the

believers at Corinth.

He says you foolish person, right?

They're they're casting doubt that resurrection is even possible and he's like look to our Lord, right?

He did it and he's the first fruits, right?

And so I'm with you.

I mean it makes me angry Because this is not a tertiary doctrine.

This is attacking our first -tier gospel Blessed hope because what you do with the

resurrection has a necessary consequence.

I like what you said, that's kind of redefining Who Jesus is and so right a

couple more thoughts on this, but I just wanted to say in my interactions with Dr. Sam Frost we're

talking about death right how this is talking about the the wholeness of who man is and he astutely pointed out

in Psalm chapter 90 you have you know The psalm of Moses saying you return

man literally Adam to dust and you say return Oh children of man all of his

posterity and that same passage goes on to say the years of our life Are but 70 so

my point is he's talking about actual physical life.

There's there's a terminus, right?

There's an end that all of history is working toward towards and our life is a testimony of that, right?

We wither up we we dry up and maybe we'll live 70 or 80 years, but

we are going to die and returned to dust and so To your point.

I mean that's just totally taken away to say off a damning death, right?

It's just sin against God and it's merely spiritual so I Just want to thank you

pastor Doug.

Good good.

I just basically I would say and so do you think that physical death?

Is the result of sin or do you think it's.

Do you think that physical death is something that God looked down on?

In creation week and said behold.

It is very good.

All right, so is physical death good or bad.

Is physical death connected to Adamic death at all.

Is that a consequence?

Because otherwise now now you're you have your you've disrupted apologetics and

the defense of God's goodness because God has sort of Decreed

as a good thing anguish and suffering and decay and decrepitude.

Is that a creational good or is it the result of sin?

So you said something that really resonated with some of my experience because I say unfortunately, but God's providence

I've been having to study this for the better part of a year.

This goes back to about a year ago.

I had a dear friend That's pastoral ministry calling me saying Jeremiah.

I'm gonna explore the world of eschatology and I told him good luck.

I'm gonna continue with apologetics, but we'll still sharpen each other and you know months into this thing.

He went from pre mill to all mill to post mill.

Then he called me one day pastor Doug and just said Jeremiah.

I think I'm a heretic and I was like Hold the brakes.

What in the world are you talking about?

And so he just thought he said, you know, remember that full preterism stuff I was talking to you back a while back and I just said yeah

that crazy stuff and he goes I can't disprove it.

And so my my advice was it's okay to wrestle with hard to understand concepts but

please by everything that is holy don't preach it from your pulpit and.

So it was just you know a matter of weeks.

Maybe a couple months and that's exactly what this individual started doing.

And so this this has touched Jonesboro in a way where I'm from where it's personal

so I When you start talking about how they redefine everything one of my big questions was,

okay.

You know, like I said to my friend I said apologetically you have to be able to to give an

account for why things happen in the world and my point was death.

Why does death happen?

Because it's a result of sin and the response of this individual at the time was it's just talking about

spiritual death not sure why physical death is actually occurring because in his mind it.

He's uncomfortable with saying well, it's a result of the fall because of the implications of that later on.

Yeah, so to your point exactly full preterism they can't give an account for the world that we live in the the purpose

right much less the tell us of what everything is.

Working towards because for them it goes on.

Infinitum.

Yeah, and one of the most manifestly obvious truths for anyone with a Christian

common sense.

Is that death.

Physical death is an enemy?

Mmm, it is.

And we can back it up with Scripture.

Like like when the full predators say y 'all are just hyper credalist.

I'm just thinking oh boy.

We have to have this conversation because you've rightly put out.

Look.

They're not the ultimate authority the creeds and confessions, but they are a higher authority than than you.

Right, right.

Not not higher than Scripture not higher than Scripture, but higher than you guys.

And if you utilize that table of contents in your Bible We're bound by types of creeds,

right?

And that's not a bad thing.

And so what I've tried to encourage, you know, all of us within you're studying eschatology because eschatology does matter.

Brandon would Is we should be able to offer a robust eschatology

of our blessed Hope the second coming of Jesus the resurrection of the dead.

That's bodily for crying out loud and how Jesus will return to restore the world and righteousness and restore all things.

So I do think we need to have robust Apologetics to answer the full preterist, right?

But like you've rightly said we don't want to hand them a microphone, right?

I believe you've talked about first -order threats versus force first -order error.

Is that right?

You talked about two categories, I believe.

Correct and so at this point in time, there's about 14 of them right now.

Unfortunately, all 14 of them are in my backyard.

So I'm forced to call, you know, Pastor Doug and dr. Sam Frost and which I'm grateful for the

opportunity.

So I do want to remind people.

Hey, we do need to give Scriptural answer contending for context and I think first I

think 1st Corinthians 15 and going back to 2nd Timothy chapter 2 are wonderful places to start.

But that's this is embedded in a larger worldview.

Like you've been pointing out, right?

This isn't just the first time we've read about these things in Scripture.

Exactly.

So as we begin to wind down I Want to get some of your some more of your thoughts because when people say Jeremiah

Why is full preterism attack on the gospel?

Well, we've kind of talked about it's an attack on.

Jesus's.

Bodily Return right because they put that in the past 70 AD and we're like no

Jesus is going to return to destroy the last enemy death physical death and it's almost

unfortunate I have to keep qualifying that but that's the argument Paul makes in 1st Corinthians 15 and so

number two to get the timing of the resurrection of the dead is heresy, I mean causes people to swerve from

the truth because our resurrection is so tightly connected with Jesus's Resurrection him being the first

fruits.

Yes.

I've also told people Full preterism undoes the nature of who

Jesus is as the God -man.

So I'd love to hear your thoughts so their understanding of 1st Corinthians 15 is flesh and blood

Cannot inherit the kingdom of God, so there's no Bodiliness in heaven and I had

to learn that the new heavens new earth is disconnected from the idea that we go to heaven.

One day, okay, and so when you start asking about Jesus being the God -man.

They don't like him having a body now in heaven.

And so I believe dr. Frost wrote an article is where do they hide the body?

Essentially because in their theology Jesus Needs to be the God -man somehow, but he can't

have that human nature as we know it.

And so are you aware that they kind of push that view that Jesus is no longer the man, right?

The way because you got to think first Timothy 2 that's before 70 80, right?

I don't know how that that helps them, but that's usually the rescuing device.

But Jesus does not have a body now seat at the right hand of the Father in heaven.

So you did and so I'd say that.

So then you don't have a high priest interceding for you.

Right, you don't have a high priest and that's necessary.

Romans 8 is a good place to say like he is giving us all things.

He he not only died for Christians with his penal substitutionary death.

Sorry, my Arminian friends out there, but more than that he was raised for us.

No dispute there and he continues to intercede as our perfect high priest and that's the whole point of like

federal headship.

We need Jesus to perfectly represent us, but they will say he no longer has that

humanity aspect and.

It's just sort of When they have this kind of carnal logic that has them by the throat.

It just carries them right out of Orthodox Christianity.

If if Christ is not in the God -man in heaven now.

Interceding for you now, you're not a Christian.

It's it's that simple.

Christ is declared in Romans 1 for he's declared with power to be the Son of God by his

resurrection from the dead.

We know that he's gonna judge the whole world acts 17 by his resurrection from the dead.

He was in Romans.

He was raised to life for our justification.

So that resurrection if it's not a bodily resurrection with where he ascends in the body

ten fingers.

Into heaven if that's not the case, you're still in your sins.

And if you're confessing something different, you're not a Christian.

Which which kind of makes sense for what they're trying to do because as you know acts 111 We understand the way that Jesus

ascended as he's coming back, but in their whole redefining is that he he was ascending

authoritatively.

Right, and so that's kind of the moment that he somehow loses the body because when he returned at 70 AD he was spiritual.

You know, I mean and so they're not shy about denying that Jesus doesn't have a body

now.

They can't I mean they'll try to say he's still the God man.

But one one of you that was put out I believe by the gentleman named Don Preston was well Jesus when he ascended

was reabsorbed back into the the Trinity by the eternal Lagos.

So he still has those human memories when he did that.

So like I said, they they are serious about he doesn't have that bodily nature.

This is just Gnosticism.

Because.

So then the question is I've understood some full predators say we get a heavenly body.

But what if Jesus doesn't have one?

Why do I need one now?

Yeah, well that's that's it.

Do you believe.

What it's starting to boil down to is do you guys believe in a resurrection at all?

Hmm.

Well, I was resurrected when I put my faith in Jesus Jesus said to was it Martha I'm the resurrection of

life that you believe in me.

So then the answer is no.

They don't not not a future bodily Biological as some of them said resurrection, so

they denied that.

And so something I was talking with dr. Frost about there's many passages that use the present tense of.

Jesus's.

Human nature for in him the the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily.

And so it seems like at the incarnation I mean this fits with what you already said, but there's a present

continual sense that he must continue to Represent us perfectly.

And so this has been one place Colossians 2 9 and another place. I would love to Get your thoughts on

is in 1st John chapter 4.

Ironically because you mentioned kind of Gnosticism being at play, you know John's getting ready

to combat these these Gnostic Ideas, it says beloved do not believe every spirit.

But test the spirits to see whether they are from God for many false prophets have gone out into the world

by this.

You know the Spirit of God every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come

present tense in the flesh is From God and so what do you think about this?

You know keying in on Jesus coming in the flesh is in the Perfect tense the continual sense that he's in the

flesh to deny.

That is essentially heretical.

Because you no longer have that high priest.

I agree with that and they would say well, we believe that he has come in the flesh, but then he.

Then he quit.

Doing that, you know, my question is how why why did Paul use the perfect tense that that was gonna have a a

terminus.

Yeah, I would say the same thing He in in Romans.

He ever lives the sea Romans 8 27.

Romans 8 to 34.

Sorry, who is he who condemns.

It is Christ who died and Furthermore is also risen who is even at the right hand of God

who also makes intercession for us.

So.

It links his intercession For us in the body if he died he rose

and he prays Right if I don't have a high priest.

If I don't have a high priest in the body, I don't have a high priest.

Hmm.

So I'll read this kind of passage again that you were talking about who shall bring any charge against

God's elect.

It is God who justifies who is to condemn Christ.

Jesus is the one who died.

I always put a finger up him because I say I want to.

I want people to remember three Things he died a penal substitutionary death for Christians.

Paul's talking about the elect.

Sorry Armenian friends.

But more than that argument from the lesser to the greater who was raised.

He's at the right hand of the Father who is interceding for us.

And so I think.

That's such a strong passage because it does talk about the particularity of Jesus's substitutionary

death.

Right for the elect for Christians, but it's a package deal.

His resurrection isn't disputed that it's for those who believe and he continues to intercede on our behalf.

So there's there's a lot hanging in the balance there pastor Doug and I just want to be

respectful of your time and so Appreciate you talking to me about these important

matters.

I think you have done a phenomenal job of Not giving the microphone to full predators

that are I'm constantly hearing people drag your name through the mud now.

They'll praise you with with so much other stuff, but oh poor Doug.

He can't get his eschatology, right?

And it's so frustrating.

Because it's not like you're afraid to debate and tussle with these people.

You've talked on this subject but you rightly are not gonna give them a platform because they're trying to call out Jeff

Durbin who I'm Friends with and my thought is don't waste your precious pastoral

time with these wackadoos.

You know what?

I mean?

And so there may come a day where that's necessary, but it ain't today, right?

Right.

And so I think you've done a phenomenal job with that.

Because they are springing up in in Arkansas.

And so you may have to keep pumping content for the apologetic dog to continue to wage the

good fight.

I will say this by God's grace.

There was there's two full predators churches where I'm at.

One is already closed shop.

And so People ask me why and I'm just like they can't self -sustain.

I mean they can preach a year on the Olivet discourse and that's their battle cry when it comes to meaningful discipleship.

Past, you know pastoral care.

It's not gonna be a healthy church, right?

So it's gonna have a way of just dying and in self imploding.

And so a lot of these guys that write books on full pretorism.

They have to sneak in to these, you know, mega SBC churches, right where they can't

they might become members But any reform church is gonna bar them from coming to the table and being a

member.

And so my big caution to people is.

Look.

Full pretorism is parasitic.

It has to leech off Orthodoxy and try to cloak itself and creep in unaware.

So do you have any kind of final words to any full predators out there listening?

Yeah, I would just say the incarnation was permanent.

Just like that the incarnation was permanent and.

There's so much other things that we've talked about that's attached to the incarnation.

But you have to give up so much in order to save.

You know the the paradigm the worldview of full preterism and so right.

Pastor Doug.

Thanks so much.

Let's encourage people go read your book.

You're not heaven misplaced.

And you say you wrote some more on eschatology elsewhere.

A.

Commentary on Revelation called when the man comes around.

So comes right you come up with the best titles, by the way, just with everything.

Appreciate your work with all that and so pastor Doug, maybe our paths will cross again one

day in the future.

And so until then, thank you so much.

Yes, we'll be ready.

Thank you soon, right?

All right, as the Sun uses it.

All right.

God bless.

Take care.

Thanks so much for tuning in to the apologetic dog.

This was a big blessing to have pastor Doug come on and just talk about why eschatology matters.

What our blessed hope looks like in the return of King Jesus in our future.

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