Genesis Is The Answer To Our Collapsing World W/Ken Ham

In Matthew 16, Jesus chastised the Pharisees who could interpret the appearance of the sky but failed to interpret the signs of the time in which they lived.

Who are the Pharisees of our day? This strong hold of sort of whiteness and white identity and pristineness is really part of what keeps us from making progress.

We need to do better. The Church, rich in theological scholarship, has lingered in academic sanctuaries and ivory towers, failing to translate its lofty doctrines into a tangible and practical cultural apologetic.

At the Worldview Youth Academy, we bridge this critical gap. Here, theological depth is not an end in itself but a means to engage with contemporary cultural issues for the glory of God and the expansion of his kingdom.

Our mission is to cultivate thinkers who can articulate and apply Christian truths within contemporary societal challenges.

So embrace this call to worship God with all your heart, all your soul, and with all your mind.

We will do better as this next generation tears down the idols of our modern culture and works to build a brighter future toward Christendom 2 .0.

Is he hung up on me? What? What?

What? Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men. The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage.

Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make buddies. Not to make brosives. Right. Don't go into the world and make homies.

Right. Disciples. I got a bit of a jiggle neck. That's a joke, pastor.

When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

That's Genesis chapter 1 .1, y 'all. Welcome back, everybody. This is the Gospel Heard Around the World, Apologia Radio.

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So make sure you guys sign up as soon as you can. That's Luke DeBear. What up? I'm Jeff, the Comedian Ninja. And we, as you can see, have some very special guests in the studio with us today.

Maybe you've heard of them. Maybe you haven't. Very excited.

Actually, we're here on an unusual day. What you're watching right now is prerecorded. Yes. Because we wanted to do something special.

So it's Saturday. They just got here. Lala was breaking every speed law known to man. Allegedly.

Allegedly. Yes, that's right. The lawyer speaks up. Allegedly. And so we have special guests in the studio with us today.

We have, of course, my good friend, Ken Ham, Answers in Genesis. We've done a lot of stuff together, actually, by this point.

Yeah, we have. Do you remember? Yeah, it goes back millions of years. Yes. The first time

I ever tried Vegemite was with this gentleman right here. At the top of the arc.

Well, you just need to have a, you know, a better palate. But you know what, though? I've actually grown in my understanding of, like, how healthy it is.

And I probably would eat it now just for the health benefits. Yeah, see? Look how old I am, and I'm still here. Yeah, that's right. Exactly.

See, imagine what would happen if I hadn't eaten it. Like Methuselah age, somewhere around there. Millions of years old?

Why do you think he knows so much about Noah's Ark? That's right. He was there. He lived there. He was there. A missing part of the narrative, not story, as Ken was actually holding on.

So this is actually also Martin Isles. Martin Isles. We have, by the way, titles again is founder

CEO, executive CEO. That's right. Answers in Genesis. Everybody knows, watching this show,

Answers in Genesis. One of my favorites. Answers in Genesis has a long history going back to educate people in the biblical worldview and, of course, the creation narrative.

The importance of Genesis is foundation for really everything. Christian worldview comes out of that.

And then, of course, moving on into the Creation Museum and into the Ark Encounter. I wanted to say at the start of the show, if you haven't been to the

Creation Museum or the Ark Encounter yet, you need to go see it. It will blow your mind. Honestly, it's a refreshing experience to see something that is done by Christians so well.

Disney level. You know what I'm saying? One thing I just want to say is the last time I was at the

Creation Museum, I've been there a couple of times, is just walking through it and just thinking how clean and how high end everything is and sharp everything is and beautiful.

So if you want to take a trip with your family, do something exciting and bless your kids to see really just the rigorous nature of the

Christian worldview and how awesome all this is, definitely go to the Creation Museum and then, of course, the Ark Encounter.

And where would they go to get tickets? Where would they go? Well, I would use

ArkEncounter .com. ArkEncounter .com. And then you can find out about the Creation Museum as well. It has its own website, but you can get to it all from ArkEncounter .com.

Perfect. Do it. I've been there a couple of times. Love it. I was just there. You got to do the Ark Encounter again.

Again. Again. For the third time. And it was just as a spectator really this time, except Lala was trying to pull you into all kinds of work.

He was, yeah. Even though you were on your sabbatical. You don't know that the rule we have as elders is as trying as faithful ministry is, is when we're on sabbatical, we're supposed to do no work.

We're not supposed to talk about work. We're not supposed to talk about ministry. And Lala, you ruined it.

You ruined it. Yeah. What does sabbatical mean? Yeah. Well, see,

God had this thing in the book that you talk a lot about. And so we're here now.

So we got this thing put together. They're in town. They really just landed. Literally. They're going to be doing some speaking tomorrow locally.

And so we thought, well, we have them here. We do some important discussions. So obviously right now things are nuts, crazy bananas right now across the board.

If you talk about gender bending, if you talk about the destruction of human family, if you talk about the abandonment of biblical standards of justice and law, the

Christian worldview is under the boot of the socialists today, the humanists, the secularists.

And they're going full bore all the way with their worldview and everything that they want that comes with it.

And Christians, I believe, have been largely silent over the last couple of generations in terms of a bold proclamation and faithful witness of the gospel.

And so now we're reaping the rewards of that. And so we're in a very trying and difficult time right now.

A world in the West anyway that was so blast by the benefits of the gospel and the biblical worldview.

Now everything's just hanging on a thread. We don't understand why we have these things, why we have these standards.

And one of the things that's always encouraged me, Ken, about Answers in Genesis is your commitment to the word of God as supreme, as the ultimate.

And in particular, and we talk about culture and society around about us today and everything sort of collapsing. One of the things

I've appreciated is your emphasis on the beginning of the narrative, the foundation, the

Genesis story. And that's really been an emphasis for you throughout your entire ministry. Is that? Well, it certainly has because, you know, as I say to people,

Genesis 1 to 11 is the foundation for everything. When I mean everything, it is. The origin of all the basic entities of life in the universe are right there in Genesis 1 to 11.

It's a foundation for all our doctrine. It's a foundation for the gospel. It's a foundation for our Christian worldview. It's a foundation for everything.

And I'll add to that something that I've been saying in recent times too is when you believe a literal history in Genesis 1 to 11, when you believe that is literal history, it's the key to being woke proof.

Because you see, those churches, and you talk about churches being rather lukewarm and so on. I look on it that I think a lot of our problems is because of much of the church because they haven't taken a stand on God's word.

They haven't raised up generations with a biblical worldview starting from Genesis. They haven't taught them apologetics by and large, haven't equipped them with answers to the skeptical questions of our day.

And they actually endorsed generations going to a secular education system that has thrown everything

Christian out. And people need to understand secular is not neutral. There's no neutrality.

There's no neutral position. You're either for Christ or against. And I think if people started saying things like, oh my kids go to the anti -God education system for five hours a day,

I think that might shock them into realizing what's really happening there. Most of our Christian leaders have endorsed the secular education system and told kids, oh you need to go there.

You need to be there to be a witness to the other kids. But we've got to train them up first to know what they believe, why they believe what they do, equipped with answers so they don't get led astray by the attacks of our day.

Because we live in a time, I would say we live in an era that started in the late 1700s, early 1800s, when naturalism started to be popularized.

Naturalism is basically atheism. The philosophy that you explain everything by natural processes without God.

And that led to the belief in millions of years, and then Darwin's ideas starting to take off about evolution, biological, anthropological evolution and so on.

And what happened is much of the church adopted those views based on naturalism, reinterpreted the book of Genesis, said it doesn't matter.

Most pastors don't even know how to teach it. They think it's too controversial to deal with anyway. And we've lost the foundation for our worldview and for all

Christian doctrine, for our morality. And the bottom line, if you start to think about it, Judges 21 -25, there's two verses in Judges that say this.

When there's no king to tell them what to do, they all do what is right in their own eyes. When there's no absolute authority, then everyone determines their own morality.

They're their own God. They determine right and wrong. They define what is good and what is bad. America had an incredible Christian influence.

And the Judeo -Christian ethic permeated the culture. And that was because people back then, you go back to the 1700s and earlier, there was a great respect for the

Bible. There was a respect for Christian morality that came out of the Bible. So even the non -Christians, most of them believed marriage was a man and a woman.

There was only two genders of humans. Abortion would be murder. It would be killing a human being right from fertilization.

But what's happened is, and that was the dominant worldview, but we've allowed generations to be taught against the

Bible and against the history in Genesis. And that doubt has led to unbelief. And generations of our kids, given the foundation, it's man that determines truth.

Then they have left the church and become more consistent in building a worldview on the foundation of man's word, which is the right foundation for LGBT and everything else.

And now we're seeing the secular humanism, moral relativism permeate the culture.

That's the dominant worldview. So now the Christians are the enemy. And that's really the situation we're in. Right. And that's a good point,

Ken. I mean, if you remove the Genesis account of history, you lose an ultimate source of knowledge,

God and the creator himself. You lose the uniqueness of human beings and the imago dei, image of God.

And so if you just lose those points of the biblical story and biblical history, it leads to all that we see today in terms of a denial of knowledge altogether.

I mean, if you read some... It's man becoming his own God. Exactly. If you look at Genesis chapter 3, Genesis 3 .1

and Genesis 3 .5, when God had told Adam, you can eat of all the trees. There's just one you're not to eat of.

Or if you do, you'll die. And we have there an instruction to obey God's word.

But when the devil came along, there are two things specifically there in Genesis 3 .1. Did God really say? So the first attack was on the word of God.

On the word. The authority of the word of God. That's right. In Genesis 3 .5, you can be your own God. Exactly. And those two together really sum up our sin nature, if you think about it.

Because we're all descendants of Adam. We sinned in Adam. We sin after the likeness of Adam, the scripture says. And so we have a sin nature where we would rather trust man's word than God's word.

I see that in the church all the time. And we want to be our own God. We want to decide what's right and what's wrong.

We don't want God telling us what's right and what's wrong. And the more people let that sin nature master over them, then the more we see what's happening in our culture today.

And I believe much of it really is the church's fault because the church did not raise up generations as they should have.

And you think about it. I said the key to being woke proof is believing in a literal Genesis 1 -11.

Because if Genesis 1 -11 is literally true, that history is true, take marriage. In Matthew 19 when

Jesus was asked about marriage, he said, haven't you read? He who made them at the beginning made them male and female.

There he is attesting to the historicity of Genesis 1 -27 that there's only two genders. And therefore a man shall have his father and mother and cleave unto his wife and there'll be one flesh.

There he is attesting to the historicity of Genesis 2 -24 where God defined marriage, right?

Not Joe Biden or the Supreme Court justices. God defines marriage. What people do today when they abandon

God's word, they redefine everything God has defined. And so that's what we see happening. And it's the same for gender.

Once you abandon Genesis because God made only male and female. It was very interesting that on Easter Sunday, if you remember

Joe Biden sent out a tweet, not that he necessarily wrote it, but he sent out a tweet in his name saying, you know, we're celebrating transgender day and, you know, telling them, you know, we love you and so on and you're made in the image of God.

Well, wait a minute, where does that come from? It comes from the Bible and it's first in the Bible in Genesis 1 -26, then 1 -27.

But if you quote the rest of 1 -27, he says he made them male and female. And actually to love those people is to also share with them the truth of God's word to get them to understand

God's word is true and then to be sharing with them that what it means that God created us and understand our sin nature and we should be letting

God's word judge our behavior and feelings, not the other way around. And, you know, when it comes to the issue of abortion, we're made in the image of God, no animal is, only humans are.

And right from fertilization, I mean, you know, look at the Psalms fearfully and wonderfully made. I knitted you together in your mother's womb while you were being formed, while your body's being formed, it's being knit together.

You saw my unformed substance right from fertilization or made in God's image. We're not just animals.

In fact, there's another problem. A lot of our education system, even in the Christian schools, you know, you have the six kingdoms of life and there's the animal kingdom, the plant kingdom, and then they have four others basically.

But man is in the animal kingdom. And what's the emphasis today? You go to zoos. Oh, you're visiting the apes.

You're visiting your family. You know, you're all just animals. That's who you are. You're just a higher animal.

Well, you get rid of spare cats, get rid of spare kids. What's the difference? And really, if we had been teaching a biblical worldview correctly, use the criterion made in the image of God, man would be in a separate kingdom.

And so you're saying man is special because how did God make the animals? Let the earth bring forth the animals.

How did he make man? Let us make man in our image after our likeness and let him have dominion over the creation.

Oh, that then pertains to the climate change issue because we have a climate change religion today that has the creation having dominion over man.

The point is, once you believe the history in Genesis 1 to 11, it's the foundation for all doctrine.

It's the foundation for a biblical worldview. It's the foundation for the rest of the Bible. It's the foundation for all of our morality.

It's the foundation for everything. That's excellent, Ken. One of the things that I've been trying to emphasize for years is that this

Christless conservatism that you see all around us in politics and culture,

Christless conservatism will not change the future. It will not change human hearts. We need the word of God to change human hearts and human minds.

And oftentimes you'll see legislators or politicians trying to grab hold of Christian capital in terms of a

Christian ethical system and trying to say we need to do this. But there's no punch behind it because there's no foundation underneath it because they're not quoting

Jesus or quoting scripture. For example, fairly recently, great documentary, it was great,

Matt Walsh's documentary What Is a Woman was great because it was entertaining to see how they can't even define what a woman is.

But one of the things that Matt Walsh failed to do and he did not do is he did not emphasize the strength of his position on God says.

He didn't answer it like Jesus, having it read from the beginning God created. And so the emphasis in this

Christless conservatism is more on what is tradition, this has always been traditionally held, to which the evolutionists can simply say who is an atheist, well, who cares about that tradition, let's create a new one.

I have a better way. I'm the source of knowledge in my world. It is only tradition. It's just an opinion if you don't have an absolute authority.

And you know the point we need to understand too and you sort of alluded to it there is the solution to all the problems is not government and the solution is not legislation.

The solution is God's word and the gospel. That's always been the solution. But there's a way of reaching people with God's word.

And one of the things I would say too just to sort of sum this up and it's one of the things

I cover in some of my talks and that is I think in many ways sometimes I think we approach in the church, they approach the, you know, dealing with the

LGBT issue for instance, those sort of issues, gender issues, marriage issues in the wrong way.

They're trying to attack the world view aspect which is seen as intolerance and hate and you're attacking their whole world view, their person.

They see it as a personal attack. We've got to learn to argue foundationally because there's a reason why they have those beliefs.

There's a foundational reason. Either it's a total rejection of the Bible or it's reinterpreting the

Bible. There's a foundational reason. And if we don't deal with that foundational reason, you're never going to deal with it up here.

And actually I found when you do witness to them foundationally, it takes the emotionalism a lot of times out of the argument.

And they're more prepared to listen. And then you start arguing down here, you know. You don't believe the

Bible? Well, I do. Well, why don't you believe the Bible? Well, where do your views come from? Well, how do you determine what's right and what's wrong?

How do you decide? You've got to deal foundationally. Yeah, you're focusing on something that's conceptual and they don't have to take it as personal.

Right, exactly. Exactly. All right, so Martin, one of the things that you've been emphasizing or trying to work on is in terms of like cultural issues and dealing with society and culture around about us.

How important is it to you when you think about these issues as Genesis is foundational, how important is it to have that, to be able to effectively work in the world around us, to have any influence or see any transformation?

Well, it's huge. I mean, Ken mentioned that Genesis is the book of foundations, is the book of beginnings, is the book of origins for everything.

And you can look at it as an origin of history. You see that. That's how history began. You look at it as foundations for the interpretation of sort of science, the observation of the world around us, where does it come from.

But another thing that it is foundational for is those main conditions that govern life in creation, the foundational conditions that govern our life.

For example, you think of something like marriage, so central to the governing of human life on earth.

We see that people still desire marriage. We see it is still a big deal in cultures.

Why? Well, God has said that he made the male and female from the beginning and a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, etc.

So you see the interpretation of what we see in creation in what

God has done in those foundational blueprints, male and female. We walk down the street. We look around us.

Nothing could be clearer than the fact that there are men and women surrounding us. What does it mean?

And today, of course, we say, well, I make up my own meaning or I invent my own category. No, you go back to Genesis and you see the foundation.

God has made it that way from the beginning. And if you bother to read through Genesis 2 and Genesis 3, you realize that God gives quite a clear articulation of why he made male and female.

He made them at different times. He had slightly different purposes in the reason why he wanted a man and why he wanted a woman.

And there are words to describe what they were given to do. The man is made to work and to keep or to guard or fortress.

The woman is made to help and she's called the mother of all the living. That has huge implications. And when you look at the psychological research on men and women these days, there's quite a lot of alignment between what

God said in the beginning and what we see today. There's meaning in what God has done in those foundational blueprints.

You go on to the value of human life. Why is it valuable? Made in God's image. Do we see that in creation?

Of course, we see that in creation. We just know intrinsically when we look at a human person that there is something dignified about that life as opposed to other kinds of life.

There's a rationality. There's an ability to civilize. There's a spiritual capacity. Why do we wonder about ultimate meaning?

What is it all about? Well, there's a blueprint. There's a foundation in the word of God. He did it from the beginning, made us in his image.

Even race politics, right? We build barriers, don't we, where barriers don't exist. That's a good point. We're existing in different truth paradigms.

One's an oppressor. One's a victim. We can't understand each other's lived experience. We have different truths.

And there's no scaling these walls. There's no repairing of the boundaries. And you read all these false worldviews from people like Robin DiAngelo and Ibram X.

Kendi. There's no answer. No. I mean, I would read those books and think, well, what's the solution? Where's the hope?

There's no hope. They don't have any, exactly. It's like, well, we need to do better. We're impossibly divided. We're victimizing and hating each other. Well, such boundaries did not exist in creation.

As the apostle Paul said at Mars Hill, God made from one man. You know, all peoples of the earth, right? That's exactly right.

And he sets up the fact that there's one truth that we all live in because there's one creator and there's one ultimate standard.

There's one righteousness because there's one judge in Jesus Christ, but there's also one salvation. And so you see the solution to racial divisions in what

God has done in creation and then worked out through redemption. And so if you don't have that blueprint, that foundation, you don't know how to understand what you see in the world as it pertains to governing human life.

And these are not foundations and blueprints that are just for Christian folk. These are foundations and blueprints which are part of the fabric of creation itself.

And so God calls us all to honor those things and to dishonor them is to try and be as gods.

It is to attack creation. So when we say, well, God made male and female, but I want to invent new categories or I want to mix it up or I want to turn them into costumes that I can wear, you're attacking creation.

Therefore, you are attacking the creator himself. And I think that's the Romans one thing where it says they worship and serve creature rather than creator.

It's his position as creator that this sort of paganistic world hates. And they want to put the creature in that position of the creator and arrogate to themselves almost his creation authority,

Ken said before, to redefine what he has already defined. If you don't have that blueprint, you don't know how to govern life on earth.

And that's how it relates to the blue wall system. No ultimate standard, no certainty there. And I think what's great here,

Martin, is to highlight that everything that you and Ken are saying right now in terms of a defense of a

Christian ethical system, a defense of the gender binary, a defense of the meaningfulness of marriage, the sanctity of marriage.

And as you walk through that whole stream that flows from all this, everything that you're saying is explicitly

Christian based upon Scripture. Yes. So the challenge, I think, is this for everyone listening right now in the audience, is that when you look at the collapse all around us in every possible category where everybody's just a law unto themselves, abandoning the

Christian worldview, when you see people trying to speak against it, if you see,

I mean, even like Donald Trump right now and him sort of poo -pooing men competing in women's sports or transgenders in bathrooms or him even mocking

Harris' running mate Waltz about him putting tampons in girls' bathrooms, there's just sort of a general,

Christless, conservative mocking of those things, right? Like, we all know this is stupid. Men shouldn't be competing with women and you shouldn't have tampons in boys' bathrooms.

But there's no explicit, because God says. Yes. And I think that, people need to hear, is what's missing.

So if you say, man, there's a lot of darkness around us right now, well, the church is supposed to be salt and light, and so where's the light of the church?

Well, the light's going to come from conversations like this, where there's an explicit Christian commitment and a revelational epistemology.

I know this because God says it, and I think that Christless conservatism is afraid to say that.

And I think this is the only way you ultimately overcome what I call the so what problem. Yeah. You can go to a young person and you can say, oh, you stupid moron, obviously it's

XXXY, you know, you can't fight with science, you're so dumb. But then the young person will just look at you and say, so what,

XXXY? Yeah. Because I feel. Yes. Because why isn't my truth greater than the truth itself?

Why isn't my subjective reality greater than your objective reality? And there's no answer to that because they're making themselves the creator, as I said before.

Yes. There's no answer for that except thus saith the Lord, look what God has done, what God has done matters because God is real.

Right. And so without making that connection, all of this is just an argument of mockery and it's an argument of subjective feelings and it descends into nothing.

It reminds me, in Ezekiel 36, where God says, when

God talks about the transformation of the heart, he's going to take out your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And he says, and I will write my law on your heart and cause you to keep my statutes.

Without that ground up transformation in people who know God, care about his law, fear him, and look to what he has done, you're simply not going to get the sort of society that you're looking for.

It's not going to come through Christless conservatism. So regeneration is the foundation. Regeneration only comes with the proclamation of the truth.

Yes. Exactly. You know, it's interesting, regardless of what you think of the ministry of Billy Graham, he was an evangelist that came to Australia in 1959, 1960s, little boy,

I remember that, and he was known as the Bible says man. And you know, it is true in history that thousands of people flocked to his crusades, and it is true that God used them to save a lot of people.

But you see, back then, when he says the Bible says, there's still a respect for the Bible, but when you say the Bible says today, well, the

Bible has been basically, you know, attacked as a book of mythology, you can't trust it, you know, it's against science and all the rest of it.

And the trouble is, the church has helped that because so much of the church abandoned

Genesis 1 to 11 and compromised with evolution and millions of years, compromised with naturalism.

And what's happened is now, the trouble is even if you go out there and say the Bible says, we have generations that say, the

Bible is just a book of mythology, it's sort of going to start even at, I would suggest, we have to start even a step before that to establish, to tell people, you know what the

Bible actually is? And you know what it says? And then, you know, deal with an apologetic for the

Bible and challenge them foundationally in regard to those issues because we're sort of back before even that now in having to reestablish everything from the ground up.

The authority of God. The authority of God. And you know, faith comes by hearing, hearing by the word of God. It's God's word that's sharp and a two -edged sword.

And it's God's word that saves and so on. And the answer is God's word. And you know, it's interesting, you know, if you watch

Fox News or, you know, some of these other, all sorts of podcasts and things, they'll be talking about all these so -called conservative issues which really, you know, they're borrowing from the

Christian worldview for those, but they won't talk about the Bible, won't talk about Christianity, which is why they're just, as we've been saying, it's just subjective.

It's just subjective opinion. That's all it really is. And the answer is God's word, but I suggest that it's really the church's fault.

We've got to get back to that point of actually telling people what the Bible actually is and helping them understand this is

God's word. We can trust it and this is the foundation and pointing them to the truth of God's word and the gospel.

Because that's the solution. You know, all those issues in the culture, you name them, doesn't matter what it is, whether it's abortion or gender or marriage or whatever it is, they're all the same problem.

The problem is they've got the wrong foundation of man's word. They're different symptoms, but they all need the same solution, which is the foundation of God's word and the saving gospel.

There has to be a heart and mind change. And that's really what it comes down to. And that's, I think, key,

Ken, and what you're describing there is in terms of there must be a heart change, a mind change, it's from the bottom up but not from the top down.

And it comes to the gospel. If we oppose these radical positions that destroy gender, marriage, all of culture, society, economics, you can name where there is just complete collapse.

If we try to confront it with a crisis conservatism not being explicit, not saying because God says, then we also remove the essential component that actually brings the transformation that the conservatives are actually looking for, and that's removing the gospel itself.

Because if we're not approaching the LGBT issue or the transgender issue or the gay mirage issue or all of those, if we're not approaching it with the word of God, God says, and this is a sin issue and here's a call to repentance, then there is no transformation possible.

Because what we're looking at around us is a bunch of rebellious humanity rebelling against their God. They know him but they suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness and they exchange

God for something else. And so the only way out of that spiral is the call to repentance and faith.

Remove God's word? It doesn't exist. And so all of these conservative politicians and leaders that are trying to transform all this and say, come on, hang on guys, we'll get this all back to where it's supposed to be, it's like, well where did you think it was supposed to be?

Is there a foundation you're trying to get to? Is there some place you're trying to land? Is there some objective standard you're trying to get to?

Well let's talk about that. And also, you're not going to convince people who love their sin to want to go your way.

Like the most excellent point you made is just the point where you can say, hey look, biologically, it's irrefutable.

You cannot circumvent this in any way. That is, let's use one example, that is a human being from the moment of fertilization, it cannot be controverted, it cannot be denied.

All of the science is on my side. We've been preaching that outside of abortion mills for years.

And you know what we get back every time? From the mother or father who's going inside to kill their baby? I know it's my baby.

I can kill my baby if I want to. The biology is meaningless. And so what we've also said too is a lot of these pro -life groups who say, they say proudly, we're not a

Christian organization, we're not doing this because of the Bible, we're not calling people to faith in Jesus, we're just fighting this on a biological basis.

We just want to prove to these mothers that what they have in them is a unique human being from fertilization. And what we have tried to communicate to these organizations is number one, like you said

Ken, there is no neutrality. You're either with Christ or you're against Christ. And we've also tried to communicate, have we noticed that our culture doesn't care about biology?

In the long run, they'll fail. You're talking to a man about what's in the womb biologically as human and the man in front of you has a sporting a beard, a bra, and a skirt.

And you're trying to say, if I can just convince this man of biology, he'll stop wanting to kill children.

So what is the answer to the problem with what he's doing and with what's happening in the womb? The answer to the problem is bringing them to the foundation of the authority of God's word and calling them to repentance, but we're too afraid to do that.

Because we love our stuff, we love our comfort far too much to be the kind of people that actually say what needs to be said.

And I'm going to say one more word on this. The amazing thing to me that always, it just boggles our mind about this, is the

Christian who has experienced true regeneration, they've come into contact with the holiness of God and their own sinful condition and their need for Jesus and they flee their sin and they turn to Christ, they've experienced that transformation of being confronted with the law of God.

And they realize their sin and their depravity and they turn to Jesus. That's how they came to Christ and they fell in love with Jesus.

But they think somehow that the world around them is going to change apart from that.

It has to happen in the same way. So I have experience with this in Australia being in the political world for about 10 years.

And when I first went into that world and became a spokesperson on political issues and on the media and so on,

I had Christians reach out to me from inside Australian politics and inside Australian media and give me advice.

And one of the first things I was told is don't say the Bible says and don't use

Christian arguments. Use scientific arguments, use secular arguments because if you do that you will remain influential.

And I'm sitting here and I've thought ever since then influential for what? Exactly. Influential to what end?

So you want to recreate some kind of Christianized social fabric, a civic

Christianity with no heart change. You know Jesus said what does it profit a man if he gained the whole world and lose his soul?

You might get a better society but you've still got people I mean you won't get that but let's pretend you did get that.

You've still got people who do not have what ought to be the ultimate end of our influence which is the saving gospel of Jesus Christ.

We say what we say about the cultural issues to point people to God the creator and what he has done in salvation.

And so I ignored those people completely. And so I went on television and so on and addressed these why do you hate gay people and all this kind of stuff is the question that I would ask.

I'd say let's talk about hate and then talk about the fact that hate is the desire to destroy somebody else. By contrast love is the desire for their good.

What is their ultimate good? It's the gospel of Jesus Christ. It's their salvation for eternity. And so we went on and it created all kinds of frustration.

It created all kinds of heat. People were so angry about it. And you know I started to get testimonies coming in.

People would write to me to say that they'd been saved as a result of these sorts of things. I had people from the gay community write to me and say

I want to repent of my sin because what you say makes sense and I know that this is true and that there is a

God in heaven and so on. And so people I want to throw out that challenge influence for what?

Do you want to influence for the gospel and the heart change that comes with it in this life and the next?

Or do you want to have this failed effort of just trying to influence some kind of cultural matrix that may or may not do us some temporary good?

And that's my real problem with Matt Walsh frankly. I mean he did the what is a woman thing and he actively refuses to go anywhere that is remotely

Christian. He wants to secularize the whole thing. And I just want to say to people like him influence to what end?

For what ultimately? And people I think don't have confidence in the truth of God and the gospel.

And that's sometimes why they don't go out there and say what they ought to say and get the whole truth. But you know what? His word doesn't return void.

And you know one of the things I think that's been totally missing and it's missing from much of the church in regard to teaching is that look in an ultimate sense there's only two foundations.

God's word, man's word. I mean that's how the battle started in Genesis 3. You know trust

God, you trust yourself, man's word. And there's this battle between God's word and man's word. And you've got all these

Christians out there that think that oh, if somebody doesn't believe in God's word we can't use

God's word. We've got to sort of argue on their side. But wait a minute, if you give up your foundation of God's word there's only one other foundation of man's word.

You've already lost the battle. And we've got to remember it's God's word that saves. You know not man's word, it's

God's word. But this is a problem right across the board in so many areas because very interesting what Martin was just saying there in regard to what people were telling him.

If you remember back in 2014 I debated Bill Nye, Bill Nye the science guy. And then again when the ark was opened in 2016 took him through the ark.

The interesting thing is before that debate and it's been estimated what's somewhere up to 7 million people watched it live.

And probably 25 million people have watched it since then. And I've had so many testimonies just like Martin was saying. He had people write to him.

I've had people telling me that it really taught them to rethink everything.

And I focused on God's word in the gospel. But here's the point. Before the debate I had all these

Christians, good meaning Christians write to me and say now here's how you need to debate. Don't use the Bible and you've got to use all this evidence and give him evidence.

And look there's some wonderful evidence out there and you've got to go out and do that and show him the evidence is on our side and so on.

But what I did when I did the debate was say when it comes to talking about origins and who we are we have to understand the limitations of science.

Science means knowledge. And when it comes to the past we weren't there and the beliefs that you have determine how you interpret evidence.

So all evidence is interpreted based upon your presuppositions based on the beliefs you have. And so when you start from the

Bible and it talks about the flood and so on you interpret the evidence this way and we can show observationally that what we find confirms that.

When you start from man's word it doesn't explain it because observational science doesn't confirm it.

People got mad at me for doing that because they wrote to me afterwards and said you should have given him all the evidence. They don't understand.

All evidence is interpreted based upon your foundation and it's either God's word or man's word.

There's a whole there's a whole I would say lack of teaching in our churches to teach people well you mentioned the word epistemology before but teach people how do you determine even truth?

And how do you how do you look at the world? People don't understand we've all got a pair of glasses and that's based on the presuppositions we have the beliefs we already have to start with.

And one more just one more thing as a practical example. I was at a conference once I've had this sort of thing happen many times and a man came up to me and he said

I'm gay and I believe in gay marriage. What do you say about that? And so I looked at him and I said well

I'm a Christian I believe the Bible my thinking starts there can I explain why I believe what I do?

And he said I don't believe the Bible don't give me that Bible stuff give me something else but not the Bible. You know one of the most asked questions

I've been asked in 50 years in this ministry is how do you witness to somebody who doesn't believe the

Bible because you can't believe can't use the Bible? In fact if I can name names

Andy Stanley in Atlanta I've actually heard him say if you're going to witness to a non -Christian you can't believe the

Bible because they don't believe the Bible. If you give up the Bible you have no foundation for your world view and also it's

God's word that convicts anyway and so what I said to this man was you don't believe the Bible but I do. Let me ask you a question why don't you believe the

Bible? Where does your beliefs come from? Why do you have the beliefs that you do? How do you determine right and wrong?

Does everyone have to have the same right and wrong as you do? And to go on and I got into that point of saying look

I believe this is God's word it is true I can give you answers to questions if you think it's not true what have you been taught that tells you it's not true let me answer those and if this really is

God's word and I build my thinking on there that's why marriage is one man and one woman and you know

I did this at University in Oklahoma when I was asked to give a public lecture there was to say look

I want to explain to you why we believe what we do we start from the Bible that's why we believe this about abortion that's why we believe this about marriage if you don't believe the

Bible I totally get it you're going to have a different world view to me and we're not going to meet up here it's not going to work but understand we start here that's why

I have this world view and you see most Christians do not think like that because most of our

Christian leaders have not taught them to think correctly you're emphasizing the collision of world views demonstrating to the

Christian that there actually is no neutral ground it's all God's ground and just to one point I know Luke you want to jump in here in terms of dealing with someone like Bill Nye I was grateful when

I watched that debate in terms of focusing on the foundations and someone might say but but but Ken, Jeff look there is this mountain of unbelievable evidence for Jesus being

Messiah the archaeological finds that confirm scripture the transmission of the biblical text faithfully over time and you've got all these different evidences and you can go see and touch and you've got all of the evidence for the global flood why don't you do that and the answer is that's all amazing stuff and it's very encouraging to Christians it's just showing that all of the world around us comports with the history of the

Bible but when you're talking to somebody that rejects the authority of scripture you have to go I think that lower layer you're talking about in terms of look at where you're standing it's better to in my mind it's better to take the legs off the atheist and that is to say to the atheist who wants to debate evidence and logic and reason why are you doing what you're doing right now you believe that your ancestors were bacteria and you've evolved through time and chance acting on matter and meaningless unpurposed processes from fish to philosopher why are you standing here right now when you believe there's no distinction ultimately between you and snails and horses and dogs and rocks and why am

I supposed to be holding to these immaterial universal unchanging laws of logic are they made of matter because you're a materialist and so where are these things at why should

I care about science which requires the principle of induction and the uniformity of nature why am

I to care about that in your world view see when Bill Nye is arguing as a scientist and as someone who's a logician or somebody who believes in logic or whatever the case may be he has to borrow capital from you why cede the capital that Christianity brings in terms of the revelation of God why cede that to the unbeliever by trying to stand in the middle well you know one of the things and this is a big issue in that we can't ignore the spiritual aspect of the battle and that is that man has a sin nature against God you know

I was talking to doing an interview with someone in England from a major Christian radio station over there and he was asking me about our stand on the age of the earth and he said but what about all these

Christian people that believe in millions of years and I said well

I would challenge them on the basis of God's word you can't have death and disease before sin and so on and he said but they are good

Christian people you know I mean they're scientists and surely they want to know the truth and I said wait a minute the heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked you can't ignore their sinful hearts and he said to me something like are you saying they're deliberately trying to avoid the truth

I said well our heart is we don't want the truth and if we let our sin nature master over us we don't want to hear the truth and I said well you can't ignore the fact that they are sinners just like you and I and they were all sinners which is why we need to look to God's word not to man's word and you know when you look at what's happening in our culture as well

I think it goes to why they're having massive problems of discipline in schools and in homes and many church homes as well because we got this wrong philosophy that man is basically good and kids are basically good and if you improve their environment they'll do good just like the police movement man is basically good so if we improve their environment they're not going to want to do those bad things it all comes down to the foundational truth from the bible that man has a sin nature that's right awesome

I have a question for each of you I'll ask Martin first because my question for Ken may derail the conversation we do a lot of stuff politically here in Arizona across the nation for legislation for any abortion and stuff obviously you've been involved politically in Australia so the question

I had and I heard I watched an interview Lalo sent me actually you did he had some really fantastic answers but the question

I have because we hear this a lot from pastors as well as Christians we shouldn't be involved politically like that's a different area we shouldn't do that and we of course think that's that's nonsense but how do you how do you use this biblical world view that we're talking about like how does that justify you being involved politically well we've talked about the fact that God has the ultimate word on the thing the conditions that govern life in this world so that's really the only source of truth on the whole political issue it's the only source of truth for anybody who wants to engage in that space and we have that truth which is for people's good we have that truth which points a society to God and to God's ways and I think it would be an abject failure of duty for us not to reveal that truth to the world around us and to go into public squares and political places armed with that truth now the big issue and we sort of touched on this before is to what ultimate end are you doing that and I would say if the ultimate end is public policy that's not a good enough ultimate end it needs to be something beyond that I often think of Jesus' words in the

Sermon on the Mount where he talks about the role that we have towards the world at large and he says you are the salt of the earth the light of the world he's speaking big out there in the culture out there in the world you're salt you're light salt stops decay stops the rot stops the putrefaction stands against evil how does it do that well by keeping its taste which is the same as saying by not compromising because salt will lose its taste when the moisture it's sitting in seeps into it comes into it from the environment that it's sitting in compromises and changes it so he says resist that be the difference you do not go along with the way of the world you speak against it you live against it you act against it and thereby you have a preservative effect in the earth and he's talking to ordinary people when he says this right now should you be salt in the to be salt of the earth then you need to actually be that person of non compromise in every place that you can and the political sphere and the public square is an incredible megaphone to be that salt also light jesus says you know the light of the world how do you do that what's the point about the light it is visibility how do you be maximally visible how do you be seen like a light a lamp on a stand that gives light to in the house or even a city set on a hill that cannot be hidden you're supposed to be out there right you're supposed to be public you're supposed to be going to where the people's eyes are looking and the people's ears are hearing and he says to do all of that so that people will see your good works it doesn't stop there he says that they may see your good works and give glory to your father who is in heaven so the ultimate point is that you go out there with that good that amounts to salt and light in the world and so that's the ultimate goal is that we use it as a platform for testimony and witness to the ultimate truth which is the gospel of Jesus Christ and the word of God and that goes back to what

I was saying before which is what kind of influence are you seeking so I'm absolutely in favor of standing in the public squares

I'm absolutely in favor of being salt and light in the political world absolutely 100 % but the thing that saddens me is that so often

Christians go in there and they lose sight of that question to what end and they end up thinking it's about some party politic power and so they compromise for the sake of party political power and they usually don't get the power they were looking for anyway

I often say to people as well when you throw out the word of God you actually lose your power you think of the armor of God the sword of the spirit that weapon by which we attack by which we forge ahead is the word of God that's what

God takes up and uses and convicts and you can think that it's up to you to convince all these people of what is the right policy to change the culture you can think that it's up to you to present all the evidence and all the arguments to a person to change their mind on an issue or you can realize it's up to God to cause the change and the weapon he's given you is in your hand it's his word it's the gospel that's the dynamite that's the power and so people need to just keep those basic bedrock truths in mind when they go into those places what kind of influence and what ultimately is your power and I can say you know we did it for a season in Australia and it was amazing what

God was able to do and people need to have more confidence in taking the gospel and the word into those contexts and it might well be that they go in there as a politician but they've got to be transparent ultimately people have got to know who they are why they're there what they ultimately stand for and God can use that very very powerfully actually to advance the gospel in times like this that's excellent it also takes courage right it takes courage enormous courage and I will say this about courage people would often say you know or people often assume that those who go into these sort of lion's den environments and do these things are somehow kind of like fearless people people who just don't have that fear reflex and I just want to say that's absolutely not true everyone is frail everyone is human everyone has that reflex and experiences stress and carries a burden but actually when

God says fear not I am with you what he is saying is I am with you so you can face it you can go through it don't let it get the better of you and I look at say the account of Daniel and his friends in the book of Daniel there they were in this pagan empire and no doubt they were they experienced fears as well when there was a threat of getting your head cut off not eating the food or getting thrown in the fiery furnace if you don't bow to the idol or you know if you don't stop praying go into the lion's den but they actually had courage in the sense that they didn't allow that to get the better of them they had confidence and hope in God and the truth of God and his authority and it was in those crisis moments that their testimony shone the brightest they were the light of the world in the most profound way because they became so visible for their testimony they were the soul of the earth because their lack of compromise again was so pronounced and clear in that moment and one of the phrases

I often used to use especially with young people is that God works in the fires God works in the lion's dens and he actually is looking for people with the courage to stand in those you know they said we might be our

God will deliver us may deliver us from the burning fiery furnace but if not we won't bow neither of those things happened they actually were delivered in the fiery furnace not from it they had to go in there and God needs that kind of courage where you'll stand in those pressure cooker moments and that's when the salt and the light shines brightest but don't mess it up by failing to make it clear why you're doing what you're doing who is the

God you serve and Daniel's a great testimony of that as well he just proclaimed the truth of God and his authority every time he could yeah that was excellent thank you so Ken this isn't my question but one

I wanted to thank you for the arc and how you the flow and I don't know if you want to talk about that for a second but just how you have it set up as you walk through the arc and the reason

I'm saying this is I was just there had some of my nieces my nephew one of my nieces is not a

Christian is not raised in a Christian home and she loved it she didn't want to leave we went to the creation museum a couple days later and we were getting ready to see you actually and Lalo says he probably says this to all the kids but he said there are only two people who have ever built an arc before and my niece

Noah and Ken Ham and she's 10 years old it was awesome but anyways I want to thank you because it was awesome to see that so anyways my question is when you came in you said you said why do people live here great question

I don't know the answer to that it was 105 when we came in and that was cool this is a mild summer day here this is our version of the outback the united states version basically nobody does live in the outback can you imagine somebody came out here one day and it's like 120 degrees and the grass is brown and there's no water and it's flat and you look all around and you say this would be a wonderful place to build a home and live you only got one part of that wrong you said the grass is brown there is none

I actually mowed my grass today but it cost me a lot of money to keep it green to pay for the water we're working really really really hard against the environment

I'm taking that dominion mandate serious so it's kind of a fine question but serious at the same time

I know like in the outback or australia in general pretty much everything will kill you there so we have bark scorpions have you seen a bark scorpion well

I've seen scorpions I know I've stayed in phoenix a number of times and I remember some of the houses we stayed in before I was allowed to get into the bed they came in with ultraviolet light and looking for scorpions did you know that martin

I did not then you see them shine up yeah look they're luminescent with ultraviolet light and they say oh we'll just take the scorpions out of your bed and then and they take them out and then you're going to sleep there for the night yeah we'll go out at night with the black light and kill my son loves to go the worst is the mothers because they carry like 50 babies on their back at one time and it's it's the sort of thing that's what nightmares are made of we gotta remember something they're living in a fallen world yes we don't know what it was like in a perfect world yes this is a groaning world because of sin yeah so you can't look at them now and you know we're frightened of them and what they do to us and say why did god make them this way no when he made everything was perfect there was no death there was no disease no suffering it was a very different world and so they're all out of sync now because yeah yeah yeah so great this that's where i wanted to go with this question so i always call them desert demons i can't i hate them so much and if i didn't know better i'd say that satan actually created these things they're so awful well satan can't create i know but that's why i said if i knew better if i didn't know better i mean but my question is you know romans one is or not romans one collages ones very clear that christ came to reconcile all things he's going to redeem all things how in the world is he going to reconcile scorpions i can't wrap my mind it's like i wanted i want to know how is god gonna maybe i have to wait to get to heaven the lion shall lie down with the lamb i have no idea i know is there'll be no more death god will wipe away all our tears no more disease no more suffering it'll be a perfect place and so if there are scorpions in the new heavens and new earth you can have them as pets do you think no god's gonna have to really change his heart for that you think no it was like really lord i gotta bring these on the boat i don't believe they're on noah's ark okay that wasn't because it was two of every kind seven pairs of some of land dwelling air breathing animals yeah and uh yeah when you're talking about you know spiders and uh insects and you know arthropods and so on um we suspect they're not the same as the nefesh life that has a life spirit uh in it you know the life of the flesh is in the blood and so on so they're not alive in the same sense animals are but uh i i why why did god create them the fact is because of the fallen world things aren't in in the place that they should be and we're doing things uh out of control now so yeah i don't know you know maybe this is how phoenix got started as well could be a fallen world thing because there's a town reminds me of a story there's a town in western australia called marble bar uh and it it's it's the hottest place in australia it has the world record for the most consecutive days above about a hundred degrees i think it would be fahrenheit that's 260 something days anyway oh it's way out in the middle of nowhere and a journalist went out to marble bar to check it out and see who lived there and what's going on and he went into the pub and he said to the bartender he said mate he said what on earth brought you out here to marble bar super remote really inhospitable and he said the bartender just took me to the bar turned around and walked away and a few minutes later he reemerged he leaned on the bar and he just said to him mate there's one thing you need to know there ain't no good reason for anyone to come to marble bar so don't ask that question again and australia was settled as a penal colony so there's no good reason to go to australia right so maybe there was i don't know the history of phoenix arizona no good reason to come here yeah well we had we had native americans live here for a while but honestly until like the well the mormons actually the mormons are the ones that came and started settling down here and actually it's true too that generations ago where some of the native americans lived and so on there was a lot more water there was some sure you know creeks rivers so you know what's happened climate change yeah because because of because of sin because of the flood because of ice age yeah well we really didn't have any big housing booms till about the 50s so once they started inventing air conditioning yeah until then it was very scarce man who created it as a hero and no one knows his name he's one of the heroes of all of humanity the man who made air conditioning he really is i don't know his name no i i'm saying no no the average person doesn't know the name of the man who has just blessed their life so tremendously i just proved that true did yeah exactly no everyone's gonna have to google him now and everyone should be putting pictures of him up on our walls like uh chairman uh mao or chi or something like that's our hero now how do we go from gay marriage to air conditioning i that's what we do here ken just free it's free form long form uh discussion so just real fast uh pointing everybody again to the creation museum uh point everyone to the ark encounter and in particular you heard ken say obviously what we've been saying uh you're hearing it uh with both barrels uh in terms of education christian education and getting your children out of government schools and uh government indoctrination centers and so if you want your children to have a christian worldview you have to work on developing that with them and not handing them over to the secularist to actually indoctrinate them you won't catch up with the amount of time that they're spending uh with your children and so one of the things i appreciate as well as is the amount of material that answers in genesis has put together to help with homeschooling curriculums and and things like the educating our children so i'm pointing everyone to that as well and uh make sure you guys get your tickets take the time i'm telling you i wouldn't recommend it if i didn't believe it i we don't do that here uh you need to to make your way to the creation museum and to the ark and canyon they're the two leading christian themed attractions in the world and uh we get about 1 .2

million 1 million 1 .2 million to the ark and about half a million or so to the creation museum each year people come from all over the world and all across america yeah uh they're absolutely you're right they are the quality or better quality than yeah and that's that's the truth and so that that was one of the things that did surprise me is that i had heard all the great stories about the creation museum but when we first went out uh we went when they were you in the process of building the ark and so we went to see the creation museum then we met you while the ark was under construction we filmed that thing there but i didn't you know i don't really know what to anticipate or expect and uh and so i just remember being walking into the creation museum and maybe after 10 minutes i was like wow i'm really really surprised at the quality of this and how much i really enjoyed it and i've taken my family uh there i can't remember how many times i've been there but uh we were there recent fairly recently with my family when we were in kentucky you guys helped us with the space to for our bill in kentucky of abolition and my family enjoyed it my family loved it and so i highly encourage it you know that i wouldn't tell you to to do that if i if i didn't believe it it's it's worth your time so if you get a chance you have space in your schedule make your way to the ark encounter to creation museum uh just and and and that's it so i think we're going to point real fast everyone yeah to all of our stuff so just uh people that help us and stuff that we love to use ion layer dot com ion layer dot com just want to tell you guys just google the health benefits of n a d uh one of the the great benefits of the christian worldview is is science and medicine and all those different things i'm a big fan of of what uh christianity has done to bless the world with uh medical care and uh and and medicine and there's a whole crazy history about uh christianity and and even things like anesthesiology and and how that started going under um and sleeping uh to have major surgery performed and where that came from in terms of the mind of a christian but uh i'm a big big believer in like biohacking and all the stuff advances we have in science today and so n a d benefits of n a d you'll see the uh what's nicknamed the fountain of youth it's that it's that biochemical thing that god puts in your system that you have an abundance when you're young and you start to lose as you're older uh very expensive to get n a d and it's but it is great it's helped a lot of people recover quickly from surgeries and all kinds of stuff but the guys over at ionlayer .com

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if you want to invest in your in your your longevity and health and wellness ionlayer .com type in apology at all caps in the coupon code they give you a huge discount and we get uh uh helped by them as well for the ministry that we're doing and uh luke yeah and of course you can go to shop .apology

of studios .com where you can get some amazing coffee you guys don't drink coffee though probably how you drink tea i definitely drink coffee and i'm eyeing off those beans yeah yeah i i i don't um i'm not addicted to it i just need it yeah and that's what my son said you know he said dad do you think you're ever gonna stop drinking caffeine i go i like it too much he's like but you know could it be better for you i go i just i like it it tastes great uh and of course you get some tracks you can get some merch and then um we're a partnering with amtac blades bill rapier retired navy seal makes some amazing sharp blades i showed lalo the battle axe earlier and he almost lost an arm uh but we we made sure he did not uh but you can go to amtac blades .com

put apology in the coupon code you get five percent off your order and of course he gives five percent to end abortion now to help us save babies and then heritage defense you can go to heritage defense dot dot org uh um bradley pierce is our constitutional lawyer and if you homeschool your children please please sign up it's super cheap you can put apology in the coupon code and get your first month free and make sure your children are protected if any three -letter agency ever shows up at your door yeah i just want to say just as we end the show today talking about heritage defense we love those guys over there and at right right now it's more it's vital more than ever you have to have some sort of protection in place as christians with all that we're seeing around us and so it is it is obscenely it's obscenely absurdly cheap to have heritage defense on standby if you have anybody show up at your door talking about what you've posted as a christian online or any three -letter agency show up trying to talk to your kids christian worldview stuff whatever is going on you dial a number you've got an attorney on the other end you hand it to people at the door and you say talk to my attorney it is absurd what heritage defense charges for that kind of representation and help and so i really encourage you guys if you're a believer in this culture today you need to have some protections heritage defense we love those guys what they do is honestly what they're charging is absurd for what they offer to christians in our in our nation so absurdly cheap absurdly cheap i was about to say that yeah did i say that wrong it's saturday we're not usually we're not usually absurdly cheap it's absurd you guys should be charging more because i mean to have that kind of to have that on the ready to phone call talk to my attorney if you know what attorneys cost it's when you see the prices of heritage it'll just blow your mind and so uh we'll catch you guys next week right here in apology radio don't forget to go to apology studios .com

sign up for all access we have lots more coming for you guys over the next year to bless you guys for being a partner with us in this ministry please continue to pray for end abortion now we are working in many states right now with bills of abolition and equal protection the fight is not even close to over yet guys it is really just beginning with the prophetic word of the church coming against this we have so much work to do we need your help go to endabortionnow .com