April 25, 2023 Show with Jason Cherry on “The Making of Evangelical Spirituality”

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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father

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James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister

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George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe. It's Iron Sharpens Iron.

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This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now here's your host, Chris Arnson. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 25th day of April 2023.

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I'm thrilled to have a first -time guest today on the program. His name is

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Jason Cherry. He's an elder of Trinity Reformed Church in Huntsville, Alabama, as well as a teacher and lecturer of literature,

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American history, and economics at Providence Classical School in Huntsville, Alabama.

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We are going to be addressing Jason's book today, The Making of Evangelical Spirituality, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Jason Cherry.

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Thank you for having me, Chris. It's so good to have you on the program, and I think that you've written an important book that we are going to be addressing today.

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Before we go into the contents of that book, uh, please tell our listeners about Trinity Reformed Church in Huntsville, Alabama.

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Trinity Reformed Church in Huntsville is one of the greatest blessings of my life. Me and my wife, my family, were looking for a healthy church for many years, and this is an answered prayer to that.

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Some friends of mine, we were working to plant a church in late 2018 -2019, and that's a difficult task, and we were having some difficulty launching until the

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COVID crisis hit, and all the churches started shutting down, stopped worshiping on the

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Lord's Day, and some of our friends who knew we were working on a church plant said, hey, we're Christians. We want to continue to obey the

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Lord and worship on the Lord's Day. Why don't you guys start meeting? And so we started worshiping when all the other churches closed down, and so our church plant strategy was a worldwide pandemic, and so we started in a backyard with a few families, and now we've got over 350 members, between 350 and 400 people every

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Sunday. It's almost too much growth. It's a blessing. It's one of those good problems, and it's a church that's built around commitments that we saw lacking in the evangelical church.

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For example, one of our commitments is keeping our kids. We wanted to emphasize keeping our kids.

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We see so many kids that grow up and leave the faith in the South. If you've met an atheist, then you find that they were raised in the church, and so we wanted to emphasize that.

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We also wanted to emphasize covenant renewal worship on the Lord's Day, real community, not just through programs but through hospitality, and also

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Catholicity, and one of the things we do, we're a Reformed Presbyterian church, but on the issue of baptism, we don't divide on the issue of baptism as best as we can, and so there's quite a few

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Baptist families in our church, and when it comes to their decision how to baptize their children, we defer to the head of household on that question, not because we're relativists.

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We have our convictions just because we don't feel like this is the time and place we need to be dividing over those things when we have a common faith in the

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Lord Jesus Christ. Great. Well, if anybody wants more information about Trinity Reformed Church in Huntsville, Alabama, go to trinityreformedkirk .com,

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K -I -R -K, which is the Scottish word for church, trinityreformedkirk .com, and it's wonderful to hear another example of how

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Romans 828 became fulfilled in the launching of a church or the growth of a church because of the unbiblical and even unconstitutional mandates both by local and federal government during the so -called

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COVID crisis or pandemic, and how the attempts to thwart

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God's church backfired in many instances, and how people came to discover churches who had their priorities in order according to God's plans and decrees and desires, and so I am so glad to hear about such a healthy number of people gathering there in Huntsville, Alabama, at Trinity Reformed Church.

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Tell our listeners more about Providence Classical School, the church where I am formerly a member, or should

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I say I was formerly a member, on Long Island, New York, where I'm originally from. Grace Christian Academy is also a classical

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Christian school, and I just recently emceed a fundraising banquet for Grace Christian Academy, which was hosted by keynote speaker

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Pete Hegseth of Fox News, who's also somebody who's very passionate about classical

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Christian education. Why don't you tell our listeners about Providence Classical School? Yeah, Providence Classical School is another great blessing of my life and for my family.

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The school started in 1996 in a basement, and now it's a school that has over 250 children,

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K through 12. I'm a humanities teacher in the secondary program. I've been here for nine years, and one of the unique things about this school is we have 40 different churches represented among the families that go here, and I've learned a lot about Catholicity and getting along with other brothers and sisters in Christ who have different faiths or come from different faith traditions, different denominational backgrounds, and yet we come together.

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We're united in Christ, and we make it work, and we educate our kids classically. We desire for them to get a classical education, a classical

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Christian education, and not just to learn intellectually, but also to learn the virtues of the faith, how to live out their faith, and how to think in terms of a

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Christian worldview. Well, if anybody wants more details on Providence Classical School in Huntsville, Alabama, go to providenceclassical .org,

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providenceclassical .org. Well, we have a tradition here on Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio, Jason.

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Whenever we have a first -time guest, we ask that guest to give a summary of their salvation testimony, including any kind of religious atmosphere in which they were raised and the providential circumstances with which our sovereign

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Lord raised up to draw them to themselves and save them. Let's hear your story.

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Chris, I grew up in a family where we went to church every Sunday. It was a

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Southern Baptist church in Texas where I grew up, and I remember from a young age going to church. I remember going to Sunday school and learning about the gospel.

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I remember going to Sunday services, singing the hymns, listening to the preaching and the prayers, and just going back to my earliest days.

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It's hard to remember a time when I didn't believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as Lord of the universe,

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Lord of the church, and as Savior and forgiver of my sins. I remember at a young age reading the Bible in my bedroom, very interested in the things of Christ.

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The Lord gave me a desire to learn about Him and to believe in Him.

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And I was baptized on a profession of faith when I was 13 years old. And as I went through the high school years, the college years, where there's a lot of temptation and different situations, doubts, the

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Lord was good to keep me. The Lord's grace was sovereign over my heart. And through all the difficulties, the temptations to sin, the hard times and the failures,

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I never had a time where I fell away, where I doubted the Lord to the point of denying

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Him. And as I came through college, the Lord blessed me with a beautiful wife,

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Tracy, and we have two beautiful daughters. And my family is the blessing of my life that I thank

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God for more and more as each year passes. And that family, that wife and my kids, is a big part of how the

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Lord's grace has kept me and persevered me through hard times. And my story is really one of God's grace to a sinner who didn't deserve it.

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Amen. Well, how did you come to discover and embrace Reformed theology? Well, I was growing up in a

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Baptist church, and as a teenager there was a youth minister there who was a Reformed Baptist, and he was teaching us the scriptures.

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And once he started opening up the Word of God and teaching it in really an expositional fashion,

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I was immediately drawn to it. And once you start doing that for long enough, you can't help but see the doctrines of grace.

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And so I remember specifically when I was 15 years old, I started to see the sovereign grace of God in a way that blew my mind and enhanced my love for Christ.

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So that kind of started my journey on it. And as I worked through college and certainly the college years,

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I started to pursue those things more and more. And then in 2007, I was out of college for a year and a half, and I enrolled at Reformed Theological Seminary.

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I was working a full -time job in the medical field at the time, but I was also taking classes, and I went to RTS, and of course that took me even further along in my journey in the

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Reformed faith. Amen. Well, you have a new book,

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The Making of Evangelical Spirituality, which you have authored.

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And the term, as you are likely well aware, spirituality is one of the most abused and twisted terms out there.

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You have people who—many people who will claim, oh,

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I'm not a member of any particular religion or denomination or theological perspective, but I'm a very spiritual person.

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And that word is being used to somehow protect an individual from responsibility to actually believe in the right thing, and of course, most importantly, the right

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God, the one true God of the Scriptures. But tell us exactly what you mean by the title,

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The Making of Evangelical Spirituality. What I'm concerned with in this book is the phenomenon that I observed as I interacted in different faith traditions throughout my life—Baptist churches, non -denominational churches, various student groups in college, the different folks

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I interact with in my school, also Presbyterian and Reformed churches. Cutting across the denominational spectrum,

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I've heard this language of God spoke to me, God is speaking to me, God told me, and I was struck just how that seems to be the ubiquitous spiritual assumption of evangelical

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Protestants that cuts across denominational lines. And so spirituality certainly has a broad meaning in culture.

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Robert Fuller's book, Spiritual but Not Religious, kind of explains how your average person in America embraces spirituality but not

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Christianity. But in the Christian tradition, spirituality is basically just the entirety of our lived relationship with the

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Lord, our personal relationship with the Lord. And it seems like that the ubiquitous assumption for an evangelical

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Christian is that their personal relationship with the Lord is going to include God speaking back to them extra -biblically.

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In fact, those of you in the audience who listen to Iron Sharpens Iron radio regularly will know that very recently we had

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Justin Peters on the program. In fact, it was on April 20th. We had

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Justin Peters of Justin Peters Ministries discussing the doctrine of the

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Holy Spirit, and a part of that conversation was the very thing that my guest today, Jason Cherry, has mentioned.

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And we also, in that conversation, brought up the fact that this phenomena about the

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Lord telling individuals something, the Lord speaking to individuals, it is not exclusive to charismatic,

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Pentecostal, and self -professing, non -cessationist or continuationist churches and individuals, is it?

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No, it doesn't. And there's really a spectrum of beliefs here. I mean, everyone who talks this way doesn't always mean the same things.

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One of the things I try to do in my book—this is chapter two—is I try to create a taxonomy of the people who think this way and have these spiritual assumptions.

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And so maybe on one end of the spectrum you have the spiritual populace. They're those who—they hear people using this kind of language about how

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God spoke to me, and so they then also begin using that language, kind of thoughtlessly so, just kind of to keep up with the community around them.

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But if you were to press them, they would probably deny that God actually spoke to them outside of Scripture.

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Then there's the spiritual, what I call the spiritual fire -eaters, and these are those who really are convinced that God spoke to them.

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And yeah, these are certainly common in charismatic churches, but in my experience, they're also in Baptist churches, non -denominational churches,

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Presbyterian churches as well. And one of the characteristics of the spiritual fire -eaters is that they are rather aggressive in making sure you understand that this is how

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God speaks. They really want you and all the other Christians around them to hear God's voice just like they have heard

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God's voice, and for them it really becomes the center of their relationship with the Lord.

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And then on the furthest end of the spectrum are what I call the spiritual heretics, and these are like the

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Mormons who write down their revelations, and then we get a new book of revelation like the

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Book of Mormon, and the problem with them is they're just too consistent. Their consistency causes their heresy because, yeah, if God's speaking revelation to me, maybe

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I should jot this down. Maybe it is important, and it's that kind of consistency that drives groups like the

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Mormons into heresy. So yeah, it's a wide spectrum of people, and it's not just charismatics who think this way.

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And at the risk of duplicating too much of what I already discussed with Justin Peters, I think it's an important element of the conversation to bring up again.

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That very kind of spirituality that you mentioned that is more of a universal phenomenon where you have both cessationists and continuationists or continuists alike saying the same kind of thing in regard to God communicating with them.

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Very often I have found, especially being involved in Christian media going back to the 1980s, probably before you were born, there is, and it really infuriates me to tell you the truth, there is a common way that Christians will cloak themselves with false humility, and they are actually exalting something that they've created with this false humility to make it appear as it came from the very mind of God.

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And I'll give you an example, and this of course again is across the board.

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You don't have to be charismatic or Pentecostal to say something like this, but you will have, for instance, a songwriter.

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He writes a song, or she writes a song, and someone says to that person,

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I really love that song. That song, I am going to include it in my personal worship.

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I'm going to ask the worship leader at church to perhaps include it in our own worship at the church where I am.

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I've got to tell you, you are really a gifted songwriter, and I love the insights that you have, and just the creativity and beauty which you have unfolded in this song that you wrote.

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Oh no, don't thank me, don't keep praise upon me, it's all from God.

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That kind of thing is really, as I mentioned, I think it's false humility, and trying to exalt that song, or that book, or whatever it else is that you've created, without saying it to the level of Scripture or something.

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It's all of God, nothing to do with my talent, please don't embarrass me by complimenting me, it's all of God.

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Wouldn't you agree that this is not only a false way of communicating something, but an irritating one?

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Well, I think you're right on both cases, and I think you are right that there is a certain sense there where people are using

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God Spoke to Me in that way, and sometimes I think they're even deluded themselves, like sometimes

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I think they really do believe what they're saying, which is almost even more scary, but it's a certain way of giving authorization to what you've done in the case of a song like you mentioned.

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It's kind of authorizing that this is legitimate, this is good, this needs to be consumed by others, and so it gives this, it's kind of this easy authority to assign to what

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I've done, or I've said, or song I've written. Well, I'd like to give our listeners, our email address if they have any questions of their own for my guest

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Jason Cherry on his book, The Making of Evangelical Spirituality. Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

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c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. What were some of the compelling factors that led you to say to yourself, you know,

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I really need to write a book on this issue, and the way that you began to do research and so on, which eventually led to the finished published product?

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Well, like for so many that write books on subjects, it was because I was confronted with it in my own church context multiple times where this was being used in a very destructive way, where people were using this kind of language to do certain things, to engage in certain activities or ministries that were clearly unacceptable or inappropriate for them to do.

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And when I started to see this multiply in very harmful ways in a local church context, it made me curious first off on just kind of why this was so ubiquitous.

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And so it started with a lot of curiosity. I wanted to know, how did we get to this point where people are just using this language, it's clearly inappropriate what they're concluding, what they're announcing, and yet nobody can say anything to them because they've got the force field of God told me.

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So I was curious largely, how did we get to this point in evangelical Christianity? And when

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I went, I went to look for a book, maybe there's a book that can explain this to me, and I didn't find one. And so I found there was a gaping hole here.

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There's a lot of books out there explaining how to hear the voice of God. There's a lot of conferences out there like by the

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Bethel group or the Vineyard group that you can come and you can learn how to hear the voice of God. But I wanted to understand why are there so many books teaching people to hear the voice of God?

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What's happened in the four or five hundred years of American evangelicalism where this is now the baseline assumption, as we said, not just for charismatics, but for many conservative

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Bible -believing Christians who find their names on church membership roles in what otherwise would be healthy conservative

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Christian churches? Okay, we have an anonymous listener who asks,

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I have been told even by some Reformed Christians that John Hus had some kind of a word of knowledge or prophecy before he was executed when he said in 1415, before he was burned alive, you are going to burn a goose but in 100 years you will have a swan which you can neither roast nor boil.

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And that obviously was a quote by Hus who was referencing the fact that his last name actually means goose.

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And since 1415 is obviously a year before,

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I'm sorry, a hundred years before, nearly to the year, two years shy of it, in 1517 we have

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Luther nailing the 95 Theses to the castle, the church, the door of the castle church in Wittenberg.

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So yes, I just like our listener, our anonymous listener, I have heard that presented as if John Hus had some kind of a revelation from God.

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How do you answer that? And this is once again something that is typically said by cessationists when speaking of the life of John Hus or the

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Reformation in general. There's a lot of examples like the

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John Hus story. So take the John Hus example and multiply it by about a thousand. There's a lot of things like this in church history that happen after the

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Apostolic Age. So how do we address this? Well, of course we could go in and try to scrutinize each and every one.

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That's not really possible though. Yes, making a prediction a hundred years in advance, that could be possible.

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Maybe though he did have some sort of insight. Maybe he drew some conclusions because of the lay of the land.

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He was reading the signs of the times as Jesus commanded us to do in Matthew chapter 16 verses 1 through 4.

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In fact, Jesus says we are evil if we can't connect the dots of what's happening in our world.

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And so maybe that's what John Hus is doing. But also when it comes to that broader question of the cessationist, non -cessationist debate,

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I think in some ways that debate is a little unhelpful, mainly because I think it would be better to talk about, you know, have the debate, have the different points of view, but it's really about what's normal, what's normative, and can there be exceptions to the norm?

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Well, I think that's certainly within the realm of possibility, and I know a lot of a lot of cessationists who will admit that.

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And so certainly you're looking at an extreme moment in history with John Hus, so maybe it's an exception, but that doesn't mean it should be the normal expectation for Christians today to hear

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God speak a fresh word to them in their quiet time. Well, thank you,

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Anonymous. Excellent question. And guess what? If you provide for me off the air, of course, through an email, if you provide for me your full name and mailing address, you have won a free copy of the book we are addressing today by my guest

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Jason Cherry, The Making of Evangelical Spirituality. We're going to our first commercial break right now, and if you would like to join our anonymous listener with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Give us your first name, at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Don't go away. We're going to be right back right after these messages with more of Jason Cherry.

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We're back with our guest today, Jason Cherry, an elder of Trinity Reformed Church in Huntsville, Alabama. We're discussing his book,

38:04

The Making of Evangelical Spirituality. Our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

38:10

chrisarnzen at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence. We have Cindy in Findlay, Ohio who asks, good afternoon

38:20

Chris and Jason. Please forgive me if this has already been addressed or if it is not pertinent to the discussion today as I am setting this question prior to the show and I am tending to little ones and am regularly distracted.

38:35

Since Christian spirituality is a consciousness of fellowship with the spirit of Christ interrupted by carnality and sin and develops when a born again believer makes a consistent and ongoing choice to surrender to the ministry of the

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Holy Spirit, when discussions with charismatic leaning believers arise about the gifts of the spirit, aside from getting into the cessationist debate,

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I sometimes merely mention that it is the believer's obligation to focus on the fruit of the spirit referenced in Galatians chapter 5, 22 verses, 22 through 23.

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More so or even rather than the gifts of the spirit, especially the apostolic gifts, which

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I personally feel have ceased. Nevertheless, when those who would consider themselves more spiritual because they display these so -called gifts of the spirit, how would you help these individuals to see and value that true spirituality, mature spirituality, is evidenced by the fruit of the spirit rather than the so -called gifts?

39:46

I think she's on to something. And the overall question that she's addressing is, what is the spirit's main work?

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And I think that's actually one of the troubles with this kind of spirituality is that it's assuming that the spirit's main work is to give me a specialized message into my head, when in reality the

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Holy Spirit's main work is to make us holy. It's a dead giveaway. He's called the

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Holy Spirit for a reason, and certainly the Holy Spirit's doing a lot of things. He makes a dead sinner come to life spiritually.

40:27

The Holy Spirit's doing lots of things, but the chief role of the Holy Spirit is to make us holy.

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And what is the evidence of that? Well, it's the fruit of our lives, as was mentioned. So I think that's exactly right.

40:40

And that's where you can, I think when you're talking to charismatics, you can say, okay, let's just set aside the cessationist debate.

40:47

Let's just assume for a moment that New Testament prophecy is intended to continue into the current day.

40:55

Now, I think that's a big if, and we can talk about that more. But even if it's supposed to continue into the present day, this is not the normative thing for Christians.

41:05

If you look into the Old Testament, we have God speaking to people. Yes, Moses and the others, but that was very few people, actually.

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In the Old Testament, there are a few people over a period of a thousand years who get special revelation. This isn't supposed to be the normal thing for regular

41:21

Christians. And by the way, in the Old Testament, those prophets, most of them were killed for speaking God's word in that way.

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So maybe we shouldn't be so eager to get this kind of revelation as we think we're supposed to be. So it's about what is the primary way

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God operates? What is the primary role of the Spirit? And I don't think there's any way, even if you give them the non -cessationist debate point,

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I don't think there's any way you can conclude from Scripture that the Spirit's main work is these charismatic gifts.

41:51

Well, thank you, Cindy. And guess what? You have also won a free copy of the book we are addressing today,

41:58

The Making of Evangelical Spirituality, by our guest Jason Cherry. Make sure that you send us your mailing address in Findlay, Ohio, so that we can have that book shipped out to you.

42:11

Another anonymous listener says, I'm remaining anonymous, as to not unnecessarily offend my own pastors and elders.

42:21

I have heard on occasion my own pastors and elders, before delivering a sermon, that the

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Lord had pressed this message upon their heart. Sometimes it will even involve them saying,

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I was originally going to preach on a different text today, but the Lord made it clear, overwhelmingly so, that I am to preach on this different subject.

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Is that necessarily a violation of what you believe is proper for Christians to believe and say before declaring biblical truth, or is it too close to an insinuation that they are receiving extra -biblical revelation?

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They may be insinuating that. However, just that language, as I just heard it presented, may actually be the proper way to talk about it.

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And this is one of the misconceptions of those who are arguing that these kind of prophetic gifts do not continue into the post -apostolic age.

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We're not saying that the Spirit does not work. It is clearly the case that the Spirit does work in our lives, and He does so in a very intimate fashion.

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But there's a big difference from saying, God told me, which then takes us into the category of revelation, divine revelation,

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I'm now communicating the Word of God, versus God stirring the heart. And you see, this is chapter 14 of my book called

43:44

Enablement, the Spirit is divinely enabling us towards faithfulness. And you see a lot of different language in Scripture that I categorize as God's sovereign sway over the heart.

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And so God is turning the heart, God is stirring the heart, God is inciting the heart,

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God is putting things into the heart, and many other descriptions you see in the Bible.

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And so it very well may be the case for your pastor that God did stir their heart, which I think is actually a different thing from God spoke to me.

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And I think that is how the Spirit works. The Spirit, God is sovereign over our desires, and He can influence the heart.

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He can have a sovereign sway over the heart. In fact, Dr. Martyn Lloyd -Jones, one of my heroes, he would use the word intimation.

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And he had several instances where he had what appeared to be a prophetic knowledge of the future.

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And I document a few of these cases in my book. But he never described it as God told me. He was very cautious in that way, and he used the word intimation, which

44:45

I think is actually a proper way to approach it, because he's acknowledging the fact that God can sovereignly work in the heart, stir the heart, put things into the heart, but that's actually a different thing from divine revelation.

45:01

Yes, and it can also be the fact that the pastor is saying that the

45:07

Lord led me to speak on this subject rather than another. That man may be so saturated with the

45:15

Scripture that something that is occurring in the life of that congregation or in the community or even in the nation or the world, because of the fact that the man, as I believe it was

45:29

Charles Spurgeon who was referring to John Bunyan as his blood is bib -line everywhere you prick him, anywhere you prick him, the

45:39

Scriptures ooze out. And that's a paraphrase because I don't have it right in front of me. But he could have been triggered by the

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Holy Spirit using his own knowledge of Scripture that has been stored and retained in his mind to change what he had originally thought of.

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And he's just using, just as you said, a proper way of explaining that. Am I off base here?

46:07

No, I think that's exactly right, and I think that's what we would call Christian maturity. When someone has the Word of God living in their heart, they're actively obeying, the

46:15

Spirit is at work in their heart, then they're going to be wise, they're going to have insight, and they're going to be led towards the things of God.

46:23

And so yeah, I think that's exactly right, Chris. So I'm assuming by what you have said so far that even the well -intentioned biblically sound, theologically solid man who ascends into a pulpit, he may say for the very same reasons you and I just discussed, the

46:49

Lord has led me to preach on a different topic or the Lord has given me this topic today, he may say

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God really spoke to me today and this is why I'm preaching on this subject.

47:01

He may mean those other things innocently and just not be phrasing it in a way that makes you comfortable.

47:09

So are you saying that those listening who do that, who say things like the Lord spoke to me but he doesn't mean revelation, they should just stop saying that?

47:19

I do, and I think this is, it may sound petty, and I understand that that may come across as petty, but that is one of the points

47:25

I wanted to get across in the book, is that even if you're using that language and you don't really mean it, and so you think it's harmless, actually the words we use matter, the language we use matters.

47:36

In fact, Charles Taylor, the sociologist and philosopher in his book The Language Animal, in that book, he's actually arguing against the neo -Darwinist in that book, but one of the things he points out is that language is constitutive of thought.

47:50

And so if we just start repeating language over and over again, and we might not mean it literally but we're just using it over and over again, well eventually we're going to carve out categories for that language to actually shape what we think.

48:05

But in addition to that, the problem with that is the problem of wrongful attribution. If I say that God said, then

48:13

I'm making a claim about who God is. We're all familiar with the passage that says, out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks, and we always use that in application to us, but you know that's true of God too.

48:26

What God says reveals his character. So if we're running around saying, well God said, God said, God said, but I don't really mean it, well actually we're making a claim on God's character, and that's why there's some specific and rather frightful warnings against this very thing in the

48:40

Old Testament. For example, Ezekiel chapter 13 verse six says, they have seen false visions in a lying divination.

48:48

They say, declares the Lord, when the Lord has not sent them, and yet they expect him to fulfill their word.

48:54

If you go on and read, this is a passage of condemnation for those who say, thus sayeth the Lord, when in fact

48:59

God did not say that. You see another such passage in Jeremiah chapter 23 verses 33 through 40.

49:05

So it's probably better to use the accurate language, the biblical language, than to use this language just because it happens to be really common and familiar in evangelical circles.

49:17

Yes, and of course with the media saturated with charismatic and Pentecostal televangelists and radio evangelists, we have to make a clear distinction between what we are saying and what they are saying, because they are frequently talking about the fresh new words they are allegedly receiving from God.

49:40

And by the way, I want to say this to both of my anonymous listeners, if you are first -time questioners, not only have you won the book we are addressing,

49:50

The Making of Evangelical Spirituality, you've also won a free copy of the New American Standard Bible, if you are a first -time questioner.

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So let me know that, trusting in your honesty and integrity there, if you are a first -time questioner, we will have a free copy of the

50:11

New American Standard Bible shipped out to you, and that will be shipped out to you by our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com,

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and we thank them for doing that. We also thank the publishers of the

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New American Standard Bible for supplying us with Bibles to give to our first -time questioners.

50:31

We're going to be going to our midway break shortly. The midway break, as those of you who listen to this program regularly will know, is a bit longer than the other breaks, because Grace Life Radio, who airs this program, 90 .1

50:45

FM in Lake City, Florida, they are required by the FCC to localize

50:51

Iron Trip and Zion Radio and all of their programming geographically to Lake City, Florida, and they do that with their own public service announcements and other local things that they air during the middle of our show.

51:04

We, on the other hand, simultaneously air our globally heard commercials, so I'm asking you to use this time wisely.

51:13

Please write down as much of the contact information as you possibly can for as many of our advertisers as you possibly can, so that you can more frequently and successfully contact our advertisers.

51:27

It's very important to me that you do so because the advertisers are the ones who are primarily, other than God himself of course, keeping this program in existence.

51:40

We cannot exist without the financial support of our advertisers. The donations that come into Iron Trip and Zion Radio are not nearly large enough for us to solely be sustained by them, so we need our advertisers.

51:56

Therefore, try to keep our advertisers happy by responding to them. We hope that that means that you buy their products when they're selling something, that you use their services, that you support their para -church organizations, or that you visit their churches, but when you cannot do any of those things, there's one thing that any

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Iron Trip and Zion Radio listener can do who really loves this show and is really grateful to God that there are people and organizations out there that love this show so much that they share the wealth with which

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God has blessed them with us, so that we can remain in the air. If you're really thankful for that, thank our advertisers.

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If you can't buy anything from them, just say thank you for sponsoring Iron Trip and Zion Radio, and that should go a long way to keep them interested in renewing their advertising contracts.

52:43

And of course, send in your questions to Jason Cherry on our topic today,

52:48

The Making of Evangelical Spirituality. That's chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

52:56

As always, give us your first name, at least through city and state and country of residence. We'll be right back with Jason Cherry, so don't go away.

53:15

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here. I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

53:26

G3 National Conference. That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd, on a theme that I've been preaching, teaching, writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

53:39

I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel, and Josh Weiss, founder of G3 Ministries.

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And there's more great news. Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio can get you a 30 % discount off the registration fee.

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Chris Arnson and I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd at the

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G3 National Conference in Atlanta, Georgia on the sovereignty of God. Make sure you stop by the

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Arnson while you're there.

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Go to g3min .org and enter promo code G3ISIR for your 30 % discount off the registration fee.

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I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.

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Every Christian who's serious about the Deformed Faith and the Westminster Standards should have and use the eight volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the

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It is much more than an exposition of the Larger Catechism. It is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology.

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Dr. Morecraft is pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, and I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation.

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For details on the eight volume commentary, go to westminstercommentary .com, westminstercommentary .com.

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For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com,

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heritagepresbyterianchurch .com. Please tell Dr. Morecraft and the

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Saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, that Dr. Joseph Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sent you.

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When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the

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NASB. This is Darrell Bernard Harrison, co -host of the Just Thinking podcast, and the

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NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Tom Buck at First Baptist Church in Lindell, Texas, and the

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NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Kent Keller of Faith Bible Church in Sharpsburg, Georgia, and the

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NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Mark Rimaldi, pastor of Sovereign Grace Church of Greenbrier, Tennessee, and the

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NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Matt Tarr, pastor of High Point Baptist Church in Larksville, Pennsylvania, and the

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NASB is my Bible of choice. This is

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Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

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Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially.

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Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our

58:46

Lord Jesus Christ. And, of course, the end from which we strive is the glory of God.

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If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

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Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

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Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

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This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign

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Lord, God, Savior, and King Jesus Christ today and always.

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Hi, this is John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona, taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the

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Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the

01:00:01

Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.

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I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise and yet God has raised

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Chris up for just such a time and knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

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I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

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Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

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I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com

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where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com. I'm Dr.

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Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

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Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell.

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It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in his holy word and to enthusiastically proclaim

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Christ Jesus the King and his doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island and beyond.

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I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as I have.

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For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

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That's hopereformedli .net or call 631 -696 -5711.

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That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Quorum, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

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If you love Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers.

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One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Hansen is doing is

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Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society. Their mission, to foster belief in the credibility of scripture as the written word of God.

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Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

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A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

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Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he shall be represented in the world.

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They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

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or call them at 908 -996 -7654. That's 908 -996 -7654.

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Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And here's an update.

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The new website for Grace Covenant Baptist Church of Flemington, New Jersey is gcbc -nj .org.

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That's gcbc -nj .org. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

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01:09:31

Before I return to my discussion with Jason Cherry on his book, The Making of Evangelical Spirituality, I just have a couple of very important announcements to make.

01:09:42

Folks, if you really love this show and you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves, I'm urging you please go to IronSharpensIronRadio .com,

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I believe, I would love to help you launch an ad campaign as quickly as possible because we are just as much in urgent need of your advertising dollars as we are in your donations.

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So send me an email to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line. Remember folks,

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and put I need a church in the subject line. I also want to let our listeners know that I just got the wonderful news from Dr.

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James R. White. MidAtlanticReformation .org. MidAtlanticReformation .org.

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That's the Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society, and of course you can also keep looking at ironsharpensironradio .com

01:14:02

for more details. We are now back with our guest Jason Cherry, elder of Trinity Reformed Church in Huntsville, Alabama, and also the author of The Making of Evangelical Spirituality.

01:14:15

If you have a question for him, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:14:21

We have Ted in Moundville, Alabama. Ted says, does your guest believe that late 19th, early 20th century phenomena such as the ministry of Charles Finney and the dispensationalist theology surrounding the

01:14:39

Schofield Reference Bible may have contributed to some of the aberrant spirituality that is so prominent among evangelicals today, if only in an indirect roundabout manner?

01:14:50

I often wonder whether those two particular influences made it easier for charismatic theology to take root in the evangelical world.

01:14:58

Very good question. In fact, it has something to do with another book you wrote that I hope is still in print,

01:15:05

The Culture of Conversionism and the History of the Altar Call, but we'll have you address that book in a second after you answer

01:15:16

Ted's question. Obviously, it'll hopefully take longer than a second for you to answer the question, but what do you think about Ted's question there?

01:15:27

Ted, yeah, I think there's a lot there, and actually I would trace it back to First Great Awakening. Now, I realize

01:15:32

I'm a Reformed American Christian. I'm not allowed to say anything critical of the First Great Awakening, but I'm going to do it, okay, because the

01:15:39

First Great Awakening paves the way for the Second Great Awakening. That doesn't mean they're the same. The excess and abuses of the

01:15:45

Second Great Awakening are not what happened in the First Great Awakening. There's a lot of good work in the

01:15:50

First Great Awakening, but in the First Great Awakening, you start to see what I would regard as the subjectivizing of American Christianity, and there's several results of the

01:16:01

First Great Awakening that then paved the way for the Second, where Charles Finney, of course, is prominent, and so one of the things that happens in the

01:16:10

First Great Awakening that's then exaggerated in the Second is the idea that emotionalism and excitement are the true essence of true

01:16:17

Christianity. Now, of course, Jonathan Edwards was trying to guard against this, but that didn't mean it didn't set in in many circles within Christianity in the mid -18th century.

01:16:28

Also in the Great Awakening, the First Great Awakening, this revitalized the idea that fervor and passion were the key qualifications for being an elder or a minister, and so that is wrapped up very closely with this idea of God spoke to me because often instead of education,

01:16:47

I don't need education. I don't need theological training because I've got an inside track to God's knowledge, to God's Word.

01:16:55

And then also in the First Great Awakening, what you see there also is a displacement of church authority.

01:17:01

You have itinerant preachers like George Whitefield, who, of course, are marching up and down the eastern coast preaching, and people then leave their churches or at least trust their minister a lot less than they trust

01:17:14

George Whitefield and thereby realize that I can have my spiritual life apart from any sort of meaningful contribution from the local church, which

01:17:24

I think also aids this problem. And so all of those things which are being guarded against by Jonathan Edwards and some of the some of the key figures during the

01:17:33

First Great Awakening didn't become exaggerated in the Second Great Awakening. You mentioned Charles Finney.

01:17:39

Charles Finney is just in excess of an emotionalism, and not just him himself, but he's operating in upstate

01:17:47

New York for so much of his ministry, and it's called the Burned Over District, where you have revival after revival.

01:17:52

It gets very redundant, and the 19th century in America is the spiritual Wild West. You see

01:17:58

Mormonism come on the scene. You see Seventh -day Adventists and a lot of other groups, and what's at the center of all of these groups?

01:18:06

Well, a lot of them are in the same region, and a lot of them are claiming a special word from God as the basis for their divergent beliefs.

01:18:17

So yeah, I think, Ted, you're onto something there. Now, Charles Finney, I'm sure you would agree, was guilty of far more than merely being overly emotional.

01:18:29

The man was a heretic. He was such a Pelagian, he would make the

01:18:35

Roman Catholic Church look theologically solid on soteriology. In fact, my friend

01:18:41

Jerry Johnson, who was the producer of the very well -known documentary series

01:18:49

Amazing Grace, The History and Theology of Calvinism, he has said of Finney that he was not a synergist, he was a monergist, but a monergist of the wrong kind.

01:19:01

He was a man who believed that salvation was all in the hands of man and not in the hands of God, not a combination of both.

01:19:10

But he was really teaching a false gospel, and it's ironic, so ironic, that so many fundamentalists who despise

01:19:19

Roman Catholicism have a love affair with Charles Finney. Isn't this strange? And do you agree with what I said, by the way?

01:19:25

I agree with all of it, and back to my first book called The Culture of Conversionism and the History of the

01:19:30

Altar Call, which is still available on Amazon, yeah, it documents a lot of this. I think my longest chapter in the book is

01:19:36

Charles Finney, because there were so many theological problems, it took a while to untangle it all, and yes, you're right in terms of his

01:19:42

Pelagianism and his theological problems there. And I think the two books, though, are related. I think they're very related.

01:19:49

What you have that I document in my first book is this idea of what I call conversionism, which is just the necessity of a crisis conversion event, this kind of template that has to meet a certain standard before we'll say you're converted.

01:20:04

And a lot of that is very subjective, and of course it develops over time. Finney, again, is the worst offender of this, but there's a lot of contributors to that.

01:20:13

And when you look at American evangelicalism today, I think the two unifying beliefs that cut across the denominational spectrum are first, conversionism, the idea that I have to have a datable conversion experience.

01:20:24

Well, that notion was invented by a man named James McGreedy in the context of the early Second Great Awakening, where he required his converts to have a datable conversion experience, and then he sent his protégés around to do revivals requiring such a thing.

01:20:38

And now, when I conduct membership interviews for my church, we ask, you know, what's your history being a

01:20:44

Christian? Almost all of them feel like they have to apologize if they can't tell me the time and date they were converted.

01:20:51

And I'm operating in a very conservative Reformed Presbyterian church, and yet they still feel like they're supposed to have a datable conversion experience.

01:20:59

So that's conversionism. And then the second unifying belief of American evangelicalism today is this

01:21:06

God -spoke -to -me spirituality, and neither of those is particularly healthy. Now, perhaps just to push back a little bit,

01:21:17

I happen to be a Christian who believes that it is a negative thing and not a positive thing for a preacher, a pastor, to open up the

01:21:33

Word of God and teach about it in a very dry, dull, professorial manner, where there is no passion for what he is reading.

01:21:47

There doesn't seem to be any compassion being, you know, evoked from his heart and mind while he is delivering a message that should be saturated with urgency on occasion.

01:22:03

And it may be revealing a man who is very dry and mundane in his delivery of even doctrinal and theological truths, it may be revealing, not necessarily, but it may be revealing he really doesn't care about these things he's talking about.

01:22:20

Now, how do you respond to me? This is in regard to the critique of emotionalism, and I'm very opposed to emotionalism, where people are manufacturing emotion in order to manipulate the listener and even faking things.

01:22:37

I love to see a pastor cry when he's very worked up by a biblical truth that is precious to his heart, but I hate when it seems as if he's trying to force tears out of his eyes.

01:22:48

But if you could, comment on my thoughts here. Well, I agree with you, and I think it is a common misconception to think that if you push back on the idea that God spoke to me and is supposed to speak to us and reveal

01:22:59

Himself, especially in this extra -biblical way, that that then means that you're going to be promoting some sort of dry or cold

01:23:07

Christianity. In truth, the Spirit is very active today, working in the hearts of His people, producing fruit, producing life, producing love, producing lots of joy.

01:23:20

And I think that joy will come across in a preacher or anybody who's living out the Christian faith.

01:23:25

So if I see joyless or lifeless preaching, I tend to conclude similar things as you just shared,

01:23:30

Chris. By the way, Ted, you have also won a free copy of the book we are addressing today.

01:23:37

Thanks for your excellent question. Make sure we have your address in Moundville, Alabama, where that book can be shipped.

01:23:46

I would love to have you on the program for a second interview on the culture of conversionism, if you are willing to do so.

01:23:56

And perhaps, although we've already mentioned this, but there are probably the vast majority of evangelicals who think there is something biblical about the altar call.

01:24:15

And when you do not have an altar call in your service, some people are aghast.

01:24:22

They wrongly associate you with dead liberalism because liberals don't have altar calls either.

01:24:30

But for the wrong reasons, the liberals don't have an altar call because they don't even typically believe in a concept of salvation, unless that means that you have become a social justice warrior or somebody who is celebrating

01:24:50

Earth Day or something. They don't have any call to repentance because most of the things that Christians are calling people to repent from are things that the left celebrates.

01:25:03

So they don't have altar calls. But typically, Reformed Christians do not have altar calls for an entirely different reason.

01:25:10

And one of the main reasons is it's not in the Bible, and there are Christians who treat it as if it's the third sacrament or something.

01:25:16

But if you could pick up there where I left off. Yes, and that's why I wanted to uncover the history of the altar call and show how new it really is, and how it does emerge before Charles Finney.

01:25:29

You know, generic Google search, history of the altar call, and it'll tell you Charles Finney invented it.

01:25:35

Truth is, it'd been around before then, and probably in the late 1770s even, they were doing something that we might call an altar call.

01:25:43

But it slowly and gradually developed, and of course it really became a prominent characteristic in the

01:25:49

Second Great Awakening, until you just march through the decades. And then you have Billy Sunday, you have before him, you have

01:25:56

D .L. Moody, then of course you have Billy Graham, who's known for his altar calls. And many of these men are faithful men.

01:26:01

They're not all on the same campus as Charles Finney in terms of their poor theology, but they make the altar call a normative practice to conclude a sermon, almost to the extent that the altar call replaces the sermon.

01:26:14

I was in one church once where the pastor was trying to move away from an altar call, and one church member commented, well, how are people going to get saved?

01:26:20

And so I think that's actually the biggest problem, is it confuses people on what salvation is.

01:26:26

It makes them think that salvation requires walking through these certain steps, walking the aisle, signing a decision card, which was that process was invented in the late 19th century, and doing these certain steps, when in fact,

01:26:40

God's marvelous grace is often capable of working in different ways than just an altar call.

01:26:45

And people often aren't saved, especially if you're talking about children raised in the church with Christian families.

01:26:51

They're often not saved in a crisis conversion event like Damascus Road event with Paul. It's often slow and gradual, and the

01:26:58

Spirit is powerful and capable to save someone immediately in a crisis conversion event, but He's also powerful enough to save someone through the nurture process of just being raised, learning the gospel over time, and the process of conviction and convincing doesn't happen in one moment, it happens over many, many moments.

01:27:17

And that's the problem with the altar call, is it confuses that, and it makes it very difficult for parents and pastors to actually minister to the children in their congregation who are coming under conviction, because they make that child, and I document this in my book, they make that child fit the cookie cutter experience, even though the child's experience is different than that.

01:27:38

And that completely sets the child on a wrong path, and I actually think that is the cause. In fact,

01:27:43

Charles Finney admitted this late in life, this is part of the cause of the high fallaway rate that's associated not just with Charles Finney's altar calls, but with all of the primary big -name evangelists and their altar call movements, that so many of those people walk the aisle, have a very emotional and sincere moment, but then six months later, they're not walking with the

01:28:03

Lord. Yes, in fact, I have been taken aback watching the opposite of what you have said about an emotional experience.

01:28:14

I have seen many altar calls, and in fact, I went one time to a

01:28:20

Billy Graham crusade, when he was still with us, obviously, when my sister, who's

01:28:26

Roman Catholic, urged me to accompany her at a Billy Graham crusade. Her Roman Catholic church was urging everyone to go, which says something about the theological depth of Billy Graham's crusades.

01:28:45

But while sitting there, which is not all that uncommon at a place that has altar calls, there was a long line of people who were standing there as if they were online at the

01:28:58

Department of Motor Vehicles. There was no emotion. They were just standing there, waiting to have their experience with a counselor, as they call them.

01:29:10

And to me, it was an evidence, these people aren't broken by God. These people don't appear as if they are being led to repentance of their worship of the world, the flesh, the devil, and themselves.

01:29:27

They just appear to be just waiting to get this thing over with, maybe because somebody with them urged them to get in line.

01:29:35

But I'm assuming that you've witnessed that as well. It's not always an emotional thing. Sometimes it's painfully obvious that there's no emotion involved.

01:29:45

Yeah, and this is one of the points I make, is that the altar call started as kind of a protest against some of the things that were happening in the church.

01:29:55

It was like a protest against lifeless Christianity. And now as it's progressed for over 200 years, the altar call is usually a very rote, lifeless thing.

01:30:04

And so you see kind of a development there that makes the whole thing very ironic. Yeah, one thing

01:30:11

I want to make clear is that I believe my guests would agree with me, that it is important to invite sinners to come to Christ, to flee to Christ for salvation.

01:30:27

But that is not equivalent to an altar call, or an invitation where people come forward and kneel in front of a pastor or preacher to recite a prayer that he guides them through.

01:30:43

You can flee to Christ while you're sitting there listening to a sermon.

01:30:48

You don't have to be walking forward with some kind of a spectacle attached to it.

01:30:55

And to insist that that is a necessary element is really

01:31:00

Phariseeism, where you're adding something to the commands of God, to the conduct and life and practice of the church.

01:31:09

As if I said before, it's a third sacrament or something. But I don't want to steal too much of the thunder of our possible interview that I'm hoping does take place on this book of yours, your other book,

01:31:24

The Culture of Conversionism in the History of the Altar Call. So I guess we'll move on right now.

01:31:32

And let's see here. We have an anonymous listener who says, although I understand why the

01:31:46

Reformed preachers and teachers in my life tend to shy away from the term evangelical because of the way many, if not most, modern -day evangelicals have abused that title or identity,

01:32:01

I still believe it's an important thing to say about ourselves so that they don't wrongly think—that is, the public or our friends, family, and loved ones to whom we are describing ourselves—that we are something outside of that realm completely, and they may come to the wrong conclusion that we are just another dead, mainline denomination or something.

01:32:25

What are your thoughts on this? I agree with that, and that's something I've gone back and forth on, but I think

01:32:30

I have settled on the fact that evangelicalism is a term that needs redeeming. The evangel is the gospel, and so when you use that term, if you're using it accurately and it's describing what's happening, then yes, that means the gospel's at the center.

01:32:45

And so yes, as a Christian, I want that to be the case. But of course, the word evangelical now is a very contested word, but I think some good can actually come for when we participate in the contest.

01:32:55

And one of the things I do in chapter one of my book is I kind of go through very briefly a history of American evangelicalism and how we come to have some of our hallmark beliefs, and one of those hallmark beliefs, of course, is having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and I don't have a problem with that.

01:33:10

I think that's good for us to talk that way, and I think there's a biblical argument for that, and I think all of that way of talking is wrapped up with the term evangelicalism.

01:33:20

And I would also encourage us, as we're contesting for that term, to realize that it's really taken on a political meaning in recent years thanks to various political happenings.

01:33:31

And so you've seen this in several books. For example, Frances Fitzgerald's book, it's about the history of evangelicals, and she's not really writing as a

01:33:43

Christian as far as I can tell, and I hope I'm not wrong about that because I don't know her personally, but it seems that by the end of the book she just uses the term evangelical to describe someone who voted for Trump, you know, and honestly, that's not going to help our cause if it takes on this kind of political meaning.

01:34:03

If we can contend for that word as primarily a theological term that describes something specific and redeem it,

01:34:11

I think that's in our benefit. Amen. Couldn't agree with you more, and it's not just Reformed people that have a tendency to overly react to the term evangelical.

01:34:25

Almost all of my fundamentalist friends, fundamentalist Baptist, independent folks, independent

01:34:32

Baptist folks, they will disdain any use of that term because they will identify it as just being equivalent to neo - evangelical.

01:34:44

But anyhow, we're going to our final break. It's going to be more brief than the other breaks.

01:34:52

If you have a question that you'd like to ask, please submit it as soon as possible to chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

01:34:58

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Give us your first name, at least your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

01:35:06

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. And that last anonymous listener, make sure you provide for us your full name and your mailing address through an email so that we can have the book shipped out to you that we're addressing,

01:35:25

The Making of Evangelical Spirituality, and also let me know if you are a first -time questioner so that we can have a copy of the

01:35:32

New American Standard Bible shipped out to you as well. Don't go away. We will be right back after these messages with more of Jason Cherry.

01:35:58

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here. I'm very excited to announce that my long -time friend Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

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I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.

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Chris Arnson, I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd at the

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Please be sure to also give it a good review and pass it along to anyone who would benefit from the teaching and the many solidly reformed guests that Chris Arnzen has on the show.

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01:45:12

Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Avino, and thanks for listening. When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air. Hello, my name is

01:50:05

Paul Washer and I'd like to invite you to a conference at Ridgecrest, May 4th through the 6th.

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It's about the chief end of man, which of course, the glory of God is the chief end of man.

01:50:18

Now on the 4th and the 5th, I'm going to be preaching and both times it's going to be directed toward young people, teenagers, those that are in their 20s and 30s, those who are singled and those who are married.

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And what I'm going to be teaching is first of all about the need to race to maturity.

01:50:40

We have so many young men and women that need to rethink their behavior and they need to go forward and press hard into following Christ, to growing in maturity, to be a pillar in the church and also to be a salt and light to the world.

01:51:00

Also, I'm going to be teaching on Daniel chapter 11 and the need for strength.

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We are going to need strength in the coming generations in order to fight this great tidal wave of darkness that is coming upon not just the

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United States of America, but the entire globe. Now, how are we going to be strong enough to face this?

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It is only through the knowledge of God. And when I'm talking about the knowledge of God, I'm talking about the knowledge of God as it is revealed in the person and work of Christ.

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And of course we know him and his work through scripture. So I hope that you will attend.

01:51:42

I'm going to be there, many other speakers, and we are going to be praying that God would do a genuine work of reformation and revival.

01:51:52

That's the Chief End of Man Conference, May 4th through the 6th in Ridgecrest, North Carolina.

01:52:00

God willing, I will be there manning an exhibitor's booth for Iron, Sharp, and Zion Radio. To register, go to churchendfamilylife .com,

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churchendfamilylife .com. Click on events and use promo code IRON to get 50 % off your registration fee.

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That's promo code IRON for Iron, Sharp, and Zion Radio. Paul Washer will be joined by 15 other speakers, so it'll be well worth your while to be there, and I hope to see you there.

01:52:28

We are now back with our guest today, Jason Cherry, an elder of Trinity Reformed Church in Huntsville, Alabama, and also the author of The Making of Evangelical Spirituality.

01:52:40

If you have a question, send it in immediately, because we're rapidly running out of time. chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:52:47

Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence, if you live outside the

01:52:53

USA. And we have Joseph in South Central Pennsylvania who asks, what other important way is modern evangelicalism teaching falsehood?

01:53:10

You could do a month's worth of programs on that, at least. Yeah, no kidding. Actually, I think there's one way in particular that connects to this very issue, and that is because so many evangelicals have been taught that when it's time to make a decision,

01:53:25

I just need to pray and wait for the Lord to speak to me. What's happened is we are an unwise people, and when you have an unwise people, you have a bunch of people who are easily fooled and are easily deluded, and there's nothing righteous about believing lies.

01:53:42

And yet what we have in the evangelical church today is a bunch of people, and this starts with the leaders in so many churches, that have not built up their wisdom muscles.

01:53:51

You know, in James 1, verse 5, James tells us to pray for wisdom, not for a new revelation.

01:53:58

So if we're constantly seeking a new revelation, then what we're doing is we're saying, well, I don't have to be wise. I don't have to learn how to read what's happening in the world and make decisions.

01:54:09

And the problem then happened, I think, on display with what happened with COVID in 2020. You had a lot of evangelical pastors who went along with the zeitgeist there.

01:54:19

Why? Why did so many pastors fall for the shutdowns? They stopped meeting.

01:54:25

They encouraged their parishioners to get the jab and pretended this was the new fruit of the

01:54:33

Spirit. Why were so many deluded? Well, it's because we've stopped pursuing wisdom, and one of the reasons we've stopped pursuing wisdom is because I don't need wisdom.

01:54:42

I just need a word from the Lord. Well, I want to make sure that anything else that you will want to highlight from your book is at least mentioned before we go off the air today, so we don't miss anything that you were definitely intending to speak on.

01:55:04

One of the most common questions I get is people coming from a Reform background who say, you know,

01:55:09

I've seen this problem also, and I've seen that it can be destructive and harmful. What's the best way to deal with it, with my friends or the people in my church?

01:55:18

And I think there's a lot of answers to that, but I think it starts with having a comprehensive understanding of the issue, and that's the reason

01:55:26

I wrote my book. And so a lot of Christians do have a pretty, from what I've seen, a lot of Reform Christians do have a pretty good biblical argument and pushback against these things, but I think it's also helpful to understand culturally as evangelicals how we got to this place, and that's what

01:55:42

I do in part one of my book. I think it's important to understand historically what's happened over the years that's brought evangelicals to this assumption, and then, of course, the theological critiques are very important as well.

01:55:55

So having a comprehensive view of it is important, and a lot of that also is understanding why evangelicals who believe in the

01:56:04

Lord Jesus Christ, who have a very sincere faith, practice this kind of spirituality. And that's one of the things

01:56:10

I do in my book, especially chapter five. I interviewed a lot of people, read a lot of accounts of people who think this way, and I really wanted to understand why they thought this was the proper exercise of their personal relationship with the

01:56:23

Lord. And so I think instead of starting with, let's just race to why you're wrong, let's understand why people, why good, sincere

01:56:33

Christians practice this spirituality. And when you do, what you find often are a few characteristics.

01:56:39

A lot of them are coming out of what they regard as a very dead, apathetic, cold, and lifeless church culture, and they've mistakenly thought that this is the solution.

01:56:48

A lot of them want an experience. We've put experience above truth, and so they want an experience that's more real than real, and they think this gives them that.

01:56:59

A lot of them also distrust external authority, and so what do they trust?

01:57:04

They trust internal authority, and a lot of this is that kind of suspicion against the institutional church, which is increasingly common.

01:57:12

And so if you understand where people are coming from, I think you can actually have a more fruitful conversation to direct them to the glorious grace of God as revealed in Scripture.

01:57:22

Well, I just want to repeat all of the necessary information for our listeners to get a hold of Jason Cherry, and the church where he serves, and the school where he ministers.

01:57:37

First of all, if you want more information on Trinity Reformed Church in Huntsville, Alabama, go to trinityreformedkirk,

01:57:45

K -I -R -K dot com. Trinity Reformed Kirk, which is the Scottish word for church, trinityreformedkirk .com.

01:57:54

Also, if you want more information about Providence Classical School in Huntsville, Alabama, go to providenceclassical .org,

01:58:02

providenceclassical .org. If you want to order the book by Jason Cherry that we have been discussing, which is titled,

01:58:11

The Making of Evangelical Spirituality, I would urge you to go to cvbbs .com, our sponsors,

01:58:17

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service. If they don't have it, they will order it for you. And of course,

01:58:22

I want to remind you all about the conference next week that you've been hearing advertised on the program,

01:58:31

The Chief End of Man, 16 speakers, May 4th through the 6th in Ridgecrest, North Carolina.

01:58:37

Go to churchandfamilylife .com, churchandfamilylife .com, click on events, and use the promo code

01:58:44

IRON. You will get 50 % off the registration fee. And a little bit further down the road, don't forget about the

01:58:53

Sovereignty of God Conference, which is the G3 National Conference, September 21st through the 23rd in Atlanta, Georgia, where I will be manning an exhibitor's booth there for Iron Trip and Zion Radio as well.

01:59:06

And if you go to g3men .org, g3men .org, and click on events, use the promo code

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G3ISIR, G3ISIR, for a 30 % discount off your registration fee.

01:59:21

I want to thank you so much, Jason, for being such a wonderful guest. I look forward to your return to the program.

01:59:26

I want to thank everybody who listened. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater