Opportunities to End Abortion

Conversations That Matter

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:01

We are live now on the conversations that matter podcast. I'm your host John Harris. I hope everyone's doing well out there it is a gloomy day in New York, but Progressively going towards spring which after a long winter is definitely refreshing so I was just outside doing some work and as I was doing some work getting rid of Leaves and salts and all the rest that comes with winter the

00:26

Amazon truck came and you know, I don't Amazon truck doesn't come to my house very often

00:32

I seldom order things on Amazon, but My book is using Amazon printers and that this is what it looks like So I got my first authors copies of against the waves

00:43

Christian order in a liberal age Wanted everyone to be aware of that and I have a lot of copies

00:49

So if you are interested in this book, I'll do more content and let people know a little more what's in it as we go

00:56

You can go to John Harris podcast .com. You can go to Amazon .com.

01:02

You can order it there It is on Kindle and it should be on audible if it's not now by the end of the week So just want to give everyone an update on that now that being said we have a very special guest today and a topic that I've been really looking forward to because abortion needs to be completely ended abolished made illegal and We've had trouble the last few years getting to this point even with Republicans In certain very deep red states running everything.

01:31

They have the governor. They have the legislature They have the court in their states and and they just can't seem to get past this point even after the

01:38

Dobbs decision so my interest is in doing what we're about to do is really primarily to look at the best strategic ways that you as a

01:49

Faithful Christian who wants to also see the end of abortion how can you take the limited resources you have and put them to good use if the

01:57

Lord's called you to this kind of thing and With me to discuss. This is a very special guest.

02:03

We have Bradley Pierce for the first time on the podcast Bradley Pierce Is a lawyer who you can find out more about at FAA dot life the foundation to abolish abortion

02:14

He is the producer of a documentary series called abortion free which you can go watch there and Bradley, thank you so much for joining us

02:24

Thanks for having John it's great to be with you My pleasure. Well, give us a little bit more about what you do.

02:30

Obviously, you're a lawyer and you're trying to fight Abortion, how are you doing that exactly?

02:36

yeah, well the main thing that we do at the foundation abolish abortion is We we draft equal protection legislation.

02:44

So this session Right now there's a lot of abolition equal protection bills filed around the country we've been involved with writing almost all of those and So that's what we've been doing, you know for a number of years now

02:59

And so we get involved with drafting those get involved working with legislators helping grassroots

03:07

Organizations that support those, you know doing educational things as well and you know presentations at conferences and just trying to get the message out there of How we believe

03:18

God would have us to address this issue of abortion and kind of like you're talking about What is our individual duties and and really speaking to Christians and also do you especially to pastors?

03:29

You know, how can pastors be properly equipping the Saints for the work of ministry on this issue? Could you give us a lay of the land?

03:37

Because I keep seeing polls that claim that the majority of Americans, especially

03:42

Gen Z are very much pro -choice or pro -abortion and That this is a growing hill to climb on a national level

03:52

But there are states that are very deep red where the people like, Oklahoma, Idaho The people are very against abortion.

03:58

At least they say they're pro -life Everyone elected says they're pro -life in these Republican majorities

04:04

So it seems to me that there's some areas especially post -ob decision where we can work

04:09

We have some latitude, but it doesn't seem like things are progressing As fast as one would expect especially as fast as the left would say things are

04:18

I mean they act like You know, what is it 38 states or something have already banned or limited abortion?

04:24

They paint this very scary picture to their base who cares very much about making sure abortion is accessible

04:30

So so give us a lay of the land. Where are we really at in the United States? Yeah, you know,

04:36

I think one way Addresses in a number of different ways But I think one way is it kind of compares to the issue of slavery again not just because we're abolitionists but because there are a lot of overlaps

04:48

One way of viewing this is that you know after the Civil War we had slavery abolished in every state under the 13th

04:55

Amendment when that was passed Officially abolishing it there, you know before that we had let's say 1850 where we had lots of northern states that had abolished slavery, but you know southern states obviously had not

05:09

But then go back to 1750 When not a single state had abolished slavery and that's where we are today when it comes to the issue of abortion

05:18

Not not to say that it's necessarily going to be, you know A hundred ten hundred twenty years from now before we actually abolish abortion, you know, hopefully as much sooner

05:28

But we still have a long road ahead of us. It's still legal in every state for mothers to Abort their children.

05:37

And so even in the red states pro -life states That have passed, you know

05:43

What I've called kind of third -party bans on abortion banning third parties from assisting with that, you know

05:49

Which ends up shutting down the clinics. It's not illegal there. It's explicitly written into the bills This does not apply to the mother in all the pro -life bills.

05:57

So that way because of that moms are still able to order the pills possess the pills take the bills and Abort their children in those states in addition to the abortion travel

06:09

You know going to other states and so we still have a long way to go There's no state that has actually abolished abortion, you know when you do it like that It's kind of like saying slavery is illegal for everyone except for the slave owner

06:20

It's like well, that's then we have not abolished slavery there. So so there's still a lot of work to do you know, we do see you know, it's kind of the

06:31

You know, there's polls go different ways as far as where people in the country are Obviously the the majority of folks

06:40

I'd say the majority folks really just don't care. You know, there's a lot of apathy on both sides But since the

06:46

Dobbs decision overturn Roe vs. Wade, we have seen a greater Action from the pro -abortion side and and making a number of gains around the country

06:58

We had something about that. I mean what gains has the pro -abortion side Made I mean,

07:03

I know there's been some bills that they've defeated that like in Ohio, for example, but what do you see as gains?

07:10

Yeah, well, they've so there's they've defeated a ballot initiative right after Dobbs in Kansas that would have you know provided some more protections for pre -born children, but since then they've actually tried many of their own ballot initiatives to actually enshrine abortion as a constitutional right in many states and In most of those where they've tried they've actually been passed.

07:33

So for example, Ohio you mentioned there They passed a ballot initiative basically enshrining abortion as a fundamental, right?

07:40

And and a number of other states where that's happened. Some of those have gotten defeated like in Florida But even in the state like Missouri, you know a red state they were able to pass a ballot initiative like that So I think it's because you know after Roe overturned after Dobbs overturned

07:58

Roe I think a lot of the pro -life movement your average pro -life voter That's what they had been fighting for for so long is overturning

08:06

Roe and once that was accomplished I think a lot of people either totally went to sleep on the issue or just really moved it to the back burner

08:15

Whereas the opposite happened on the pro -abortion side it became very much a front issue and and so I think that's why we we have seen and We are seeing right now, you know the pro -abortion side making those kind of political gains

08:32

This is an interesting dynamic for me because it feels so surreal. I remember for years

08:39

Defeating Roe v. Wade was the goal and that was pretty much the only goal It seemed like for the pro -life movement and it seemed unreachable like we would never get there

08:48

I was pretty skeptical that especially Donald Trump would Get to get us there, but here we are and the

08:55

Dobbs decision is not a perfect decision But it did I think give us probably more latitude than we had before To work on the state level and after you know that happened.

09:05

It's like there's no plan. Really I shouldn't say no plan and maybe I'm exaggerating but that is how it feels to me like like now lost in the pro -life or anti -abortion movement and I don't really know why that is exactly like I'm still very much interested in Getting this taken care of and making sure that it's illegal to kill one's child but I See what you're talking about People are not as motivated on this as they were before I don't know if other issues have overshadowed that that it's sort of home in a tangible way for them but every time

09:43

You see or you know One of those videos or signs or just that those jolting reminders that this is a child that is being killed

09:52

I mean it just cuts right to the heart of like and this is this is still a huge huge huge issue

09:59

Something we should care about as believers. So how do you cut past that? How do you how do you get to?

10:05

Especially legislators who claim to be Christians in red states that seem to vote against abolishing abortion

10:13

Yeah, you know there's a lot of them that I Think a lot of people really do think that the issue is solved

10:20

In their states, right because even even in a lot of these Republican states you know the clinics when they were here had to Report the number of abortions that they were performing and to the

10:34

Health Department And so the Health Department still collects those and so, you know on paper if you actually go look at the

10:40

Health Department reports Yeah, you're gonna see in a lot of these states, you know high numbers like for example here in Texas, you know

10:46

Fifty five to sixty thousand abortions a year and it's the same way a lot of other, you know

10:52

We're pretty much all the other states And then after Dobbs, you know, then we had a trigger bill, right that You know made it illegal for the clinics to operate

11:03

And then you see the number dropping, you know from fifty five sixty thousand down to you know a hundred or Fifty or you know and which are really mostly just kind of what they call abortions, but are mostly kind of a life -or -the -mother situations and And you think oh, well, hey great.

11:20

We've we've about we've effectively abolished abortion here, you know abortions basically gone Let's move on to another issue

11:27

But what you know, but what that doesn't show is the number of abortions, you know, that abortion abortions are still happening

11:34

They're just you know either going out of the state or They're ordering the pills in the state and none of that ends up getting reported in the state

11:42

So you get this, you know facade of having you know That oh, we've we've dramatically lower the numbers when it's like actually there's more abortions now in the

11:52

US than there were even ten years ago and Even in the 14 states that many people consider to be abortion free

12:02

There's still as many In some states, it's only a slight decrease in some states

12:08

It's basically the same in some states even an increase since before the Dobbs case

12:13

And a lot of people don't realize that so a lot of the our work right now is Is not just educating people.

12:21

Yes. Here's the biblical way to abolish abortion. You know, we believe in equal protection That's what the Constitution requires etc

12:26

But making people aware of the that hey, this is still a problem in the first place Because a lot of people think that it's not

12:34

And that could be an inhibitor if people think that this is a done deal in their state They're not gonna put resources towards fighting it anymore because they think the bill is done

12:42

There's other issues, but I want to explore that a little because I have heard this so often that the number of abortions have gone up or remain the same and Is this just because technology has?

12:54

Changed and people are able to get in -home Medications or abortifacients.

13:03

I don't know if there's other ways they're accomplishing abortions in later stages But they're able to get these things and kind of you know, do -it -yourself

13:12

Abortions or what is it? Because it honestly it doesn't make sense to me either That if there's no

13:17

Planned Parenthood's in your state somehow the numbers of abortions remain the same that I can't wrap my head around Maybe if you could walk us through how that's possible.

13:26

I think the main way that it's happening is So when Dobbs overturned

13:32

Roe Then it basically ran Planned Parenthood ultimately out of 14 states currently today

13:39

That you know that are being called abortion free. So Obviously didn't do really deal with the demand right people were still still wanted abortion.

13:47

It didn't change people's hearts in that regard and Because you know because the law said it didn't apply to mothers.

13:55

It didn't didn't change really this the supply it just changed the method and so What we've seen is that because it kind of eliminated the clinics from these states

14:07

It actually made it much more financially viable for the pill providers

14:14

You know to basically create what I you know No offense to Amazon but like the amazon .com

14:20

of abortions right to where you can now go online and order And so it's kind of like even in you know, just think about whenever kovat was around Yes, you know most a lot of stores were closed or it was really hard to get you know to stores or is really pain

14:37

And yet consumer buying actually increased in spite of that. And so I think that's what we've seen

14:44

You know, but where does the consumer buy and go right it went online And so I think that's what we're seeing with the abortion issue.

14:51

Is that yes, it's harder to go to a clinic now but it's actually cheaper and easier to actually do the abortions because because the market has shifted to the abortion pills online that's driven the prices way down and It's way easier to do that.

15:07

So instead of going and getting a six seven hundred dollar clinic abortion You can now get a hundred fifty dollar pill abortion.

15:13

That makes a lot of sense I was just in Kentucky last week and I know they have a bill

15:18

To abolish abortion that's going through in the church that I was speaking at a lot of the members. They are very active on this front and trying to get

15:28

Christian leaders and political Republican leaders to support this bill and Anyway, the thing

15:36

I was talking to them about a little bit and I'd love to pick your brain on this is You know if it's as you say, it's it's like the amazon .com

15:45

abortion pill coming in This becomes an interstate commerce issue, right? Like this is where the federal government would have to get involved.

15:53

The only thing a state government could effectively do in that case I suppose would be to I mean you can't kill a two -year -old in your house, right?

16:02

So you can't kill the child in the womb so they can put that on the books But it is in it was very difficult

16:07

I would think to enforce that because it is you know, two -year -old has a social security card people ask questions

16:14

Especially in an early stage in a pregnancy. There's really gonna be no evidence There's gonna be no no one's gonna know possibly that this even happened.

16:23

It is so easy to conceal. So You know, what what is the hope with a bill like that in your mind?

16:29

Like what would the government be able to do that they? That they can't do right now

16:35

Yeah, well, you know obviously the the actual shipment of the pills is an interstate commerce issue But ultimately the the act of homicide is very very much a state issue and happening within the states and so we do believe the state homicide laws need to Apply to people from the moment of fertilization and and there's some states where they already do

16:55

But then they have written in to even to those, you know Even the homicide law does not apply to the mother with regard to her own unborn child

17:03

So we need to remove those exceptions so that way the law Everyone's equally subject to the law and then everyone's equally protected by the law.

17:10

That's what we want But yeah, certainly it's going to be more difficult to to actually enforce those but kind of backing up You know in some ways the point of the law is not

17:22

You know is not to find and enforce it or to find the criminals and penalize them the primary point of the law

17:29

You know or the first, you know first function of the law is to educate, you know This is you know, basically as the

17:35

Bible says to tutor, you know, this is the this is the value of life This is how much we value life.

17:41

We value these lives equally with these lives And the penalty is strict because of how much we value life

17:47

But then if people don't agree with that Then the law is to restrain evil rise to root to deter people from committing those crimes

17:57

Yeah, there's lots of people that would commit crimes every day if if we didn't have penalties in those laws those penalties serve the purpose of Restraining them which is for their good

18:06

But of course is for the good of the potential victims and then finally the law is there to provide justice

18:14

Yeah, if people will not be taught they will not be deterred they go through with it Okay Now there needs to be justice provided which then ultimately teaches and deters as well when justice is carried out.

18:24

And so That's certainly more difficult in this context, but it's not really not that difficult in a lot of situations

18:33

I was actually talking to someone just the other day actually a police officer who in the course of investigating a crime came across text messages between the

18:45

The suspect that he was investigating and his girlfriend Where his girlfriend indicates?

18:52

Hey, I've you know, I'm pregnant You know, what are you gonna do? And he's like, well, I'm listening. I'm gonna give you money for the abortion

19:00

Okay, let's order the pills and they go kind of going back and forth in these text messages like all right We're in the pills. All right, you know, you know, did you get the money?

19:07

Yes. I got the money All right. Did you do it like I mean today in some ways today? it's almost easier to enforce because of how much evidence people are constantly shedding as we

19:20

Constantly shedding evidence because of how much we're texting and videoing ourselves and pictures and and everything today

19:27

So in some ways it's actually easier to enforce than ever And even even the ordering of the pills, right?

19:33

There's receipts for that and things for that. And so, you know, so yes, and so it'll be certainly be more difficult than than You know investigating

19:46

Homicides of born people but certainly not impossible There's some questions coming in and I have a lot of questions too, but I want to get to some of these

19:54

Javier All of us says if states can prohibit the shipping of a particular gun magazine

20:02

Why can't it prohibit abortion drugs? That's a good question because in New York we had something a few years ago called the safe act and We were limited in all kinds of ways

20:15

But one of the ways that that particular law limited us was through the the size of the magazine essentially sports stores could not carry a magazine that held over seven bullets and And so I don't know exactly how legally that all worked out

20:31

But no one was shipping any of this stuff and if you go on like Cabela's to try to order that it's not coming to New York, so I can't that same thing apply to abortion pills

20:42

It kind of does in a couple of different ways. So First of all, you know, there's many states that have passed what they call drug inducing abortion pill bands or chemical abortion pill bands

20:54

That do prohibit you know shipping pills in and or manufacturing pills or distributing pills within the state and You know the issue with the primary issue with those is that even all of those also say this does not apply to the mother

21:11

And so it's you know, it's it's one of those it's like if you had a band, yeah, it's illegal to possess

21:17

You know a magazine over five But this doesn't apply to gun owners. Yeah, wait a second.

21:23

I mean You know what I'm saying? So so that's that hurts it from you know from being effective and then secondly

21:32

If there actually is a federal law that prohibits the interstate, you know shipping in the mails of Abortion drugs, there's actually a federal law.

21:43

It's been on the books for about a hundred years, I believe And it's called the

21:48

Comstock Act It prohibits, you know distributing some other materials as well But it's not being enforced today.

21:56

So the the Biden administration's, you know Did this huge memo saying why they weren't going to enforce it?

22:04

The Trump administration so far has not made any indications that they're going to enforce that as well

22:11

Even if they did there's certainly plenty of ways around it, you know Shipping or traveling in other ways, but at least that would make it more difficult

22:19

But but even that's not being enforced today. I've never heard this. I don't think or if I forgot it if I've heard it

22:27

There's a law on the books as it stands right now to prohibit abortifacients from being shipped

22:32

Across state lines in this country. That's right. Yeah So this is kind of like the border situation we have the laws but just no one's actually doing anything about them

22:42

That's that's a good way of describing it You know, it is somewhat a I mean it wouldn't deal it wouldn't solve the core issue, which is that homicides legal, right?

22:51

You know and ultimately it's kind of a gun control issue right or a drug war kind of issue you can you can make the you can make it illegal, but if you're not dealing with the actual root issue of Homicide then, you know, you're just kind of chopping it.

23:06

You're not getting to the root, right? You're just kind of chopping at the branches, but should they enforce it should the Trump administration force it?

23:11

Absolutely. Yes, but at least so far they haven't indicated that they are going to yeah Are there any positive things you see about the

23:18

Trump administration? I know the Mexico City policy has been reinstated from what I understand

23:24

And it sounds like Trump is gonna allow states to have the latitude to try to sort some of these things out

23:30

But do you foresee any other help coming from them or do you think that Anti -abortion folks in red states are pretty much on their own

23:41

You know, I mean certainly lots of positive things from the Trump administration on lots of other issues but on this issue

23:49

Yeah, other than some of those kind of more international policies you know, certainly they you know,

23:57

Pardoned the folks who had stood in front of abortion clinics and things like that things just things that we're grateful for but overall

24:05

You know not helpful on this issue and even a lot of the messaging during the campaign was, you know counterproductive from the

24:14

Trump administration, so we're hoping that people can get to him and reach him and You know help to help turn that toward equal protection toward protecting children

24:28

You know even on the kind of leaving states to do their thing even that during the campaign

24:33

You know, there were a couple of issues. There was an issue in Arizona. There was issue in Alabama Both of which, you know, he kind of said like well, let's let states do their things but he then kind of went out of his way to to get involved in against the the anti -abortion side and So, you know

24:54

We're certainly not seeing leadership from him on this issue and and what we are seeing is Is unhelpful even recently he issued an executive order

25:03

That's not not doesn't really do anything yet other than you know, ask for some recommendations, you know on the issue of IVF Which you know has lots of problems a lot of IVF processes

25:17

You know Involve actual homicide of children. And so, um, so, you know,

25:23

I don't know where that's ultimately going to go But it's not a good sign Yeah, I think it's important you mention uh that because I read it and it could after seeing some of the blowback online

25:31

And I thought this does nothing. He's just saying uh, we want to see some recommendations made and The curious thing that um,

25:40

I suppose that I was asking I know we're getting into maybe some different territory But not really because uh when you're destroying

25:46

Embryos, you are destroying human life just like in abortion. You're destroying human life.

25:51

It's it's both murder and um And one of the things that i'm i've just been perplexed about is you have these pro -life organizations out there that have resources to be able to I don't know file briefs on these things and set agendas and so forth and It doesn't seem like there's much coming from them on the ivf front they're awfully silent

26:15

From maybe i'm wrong. Maybe you can correct me but You know, there are countries like italy is probably the most well -known country that have severe regulations on Ivf to try to make it as ethical as possible same -sex couples can't uh

26:29

Participate in it. I I don't I don't even know if you can do more than um One or two eggs because you have to implant whatever you fertilize these kinds of things

26:38

And um, and I don't even see any mirror of that in our country Like there's no one advising the president to my knowledge saying if you're going to do this

26:47

Then let's put some regulations on this. I What is going on with that?

26:52

Why is there no moral direction from the pro -life, uh organizations on this issue?

26:58

You know, I mean certainly there are some you know, i'll get you know, give credit where credit's due There certainly are some organizations that are speaking up and then saying some good things and then opposing

27:09

Um kind of the what seems to be a rush, you know to support ivf Without any, you know any questions at all um

27:17

You know, but that said I think what you're pointing out is that yeah, generally speaking, you know, most of the pro -life leaders are fairly silent about it

27:26

Whenever you know destroying a life is destroying a life whether that's five days old or five months old, you know

27:32

It's still still is destruction of human life And so it's something that we need to be talking about especially if we're going to be consistent

27:39

On this issue, but I think that's where a lot of it comes back to is You know quite frankly a lot of the pro -life movement

27:48

And by pro -life movement i'm not talking about like pregnancy help clinics and things like that that do a lot of awesome work

27:53

I'm, even you know involved in the board of one of those um I'm talking about like the pro -life lobby

27:59

You know the major lobbying organizations that have bills and you know that You know endorse politicians and politicians endorse them and things like that There we've seen for a long time a compromise on this issue of protecting life and really kind of letting the politicians, um you know drive things which normally politicians are just you know,

28:23

I mean there's some good ones out there, but a lot of them are just interested in getting re -elected and And and so, you know taking a hard stand on a controversial issue is not you know

28:33

Not the first thing on their list and so a lot of these pro -life organizations provide cover for them You know for for acting in a cowardly way and being willing to compromise and so we're seeing a lot of that I mean it's frustrating because you can have a conversation about political reality and just say look this is where things are at this is uh the

28:52

Barriers we have to contend with which is why You know a b or c we were not, you know We're not going to get our bill passed or whatever but still being the moral conscience and saying this is wrong and this is where we need to go and But abandoning the field just seems to me like you're asking for more

29:08

Abortions, you're asking for more discarded embryos. You're asking for more murder uh You mentioned there are some big pro -life

29:15

Organizations that though are doing some good work and I want to highlight that for people who might be Wanting to give their finances which are limited to organizations that are actually in the fight.

29:25

So Um, you know what comes to mind is you think through some good organizations doing work?

29:32

well, and and i'm speaking specifically on the ivf issue right people that are speaking out like Lady named katie faust, you know speaking out very boldly on the on the ivf issue um, you know, lila rose with live action speaking out very clearly on the on the um, on the ivf issue um and and others, you know that You know, we're gonna have disagreements on other fronts, you know with with some of those but at least on the ivf issue

29:59

Um, you know saying some good stuff Good good. Um, I want to get to some more of these questions because I keep asking my own here

30:07

But uh, let's see here. We have another question here What would it take this is from pacific?

30:13

Westy I guess is the name. What would it take to get federal funding of planned parenthood stopped?

30:20

What would be the result if we could get all federal funding stopped? I feel like you already started to go down this road a bit with this would incentivize the amazon

30:29

I don't keep using amazon, but the the mail in abortions But what do you think if we could actually get to that point of shutting them down permanently?

30:37

You know, I think it's something that You know, we we certainly want to see planned parenthood defunded

30:43

I don't want my tax dollars going there but in some ways it's You know

30:49

It kind of gets back to what what's what does god how does god tell us to deal with this issue?

30:55

Really? I think it's something that's fundamental. We have to come back to otherwise. We're just kind of chipping away at the edges

31:00

We're not actually dealing with the core issue And I think the way that god tells us to deal with murder Is that it should be illegal?

31:07

It should be a crime and if we make it a crime, then that's going to deal with the whole funding issue and and The you know the whole shipping of pills and and all these other things

31:17

Um better than anything else, right? If we really want to see planned parenthood defunded then how about we make it illegal to murder people?

31:25

Um that that should be step one And then yeah, then let's go look in you know, are these there's still some other way they're getting money

31:32

Um, but step one has to be let's make it illegal to murder people And then we can go after that.

31:38

Otherwise, we're just kind of making it um You know more sanitary Uh to murder people we're making it to where hey, well,

31:46

I don't you know now I don't feel as guilty Um, or I don't feel like you know, at least my tax dollars aren't going to that But that's not you know

31:55

The problem isn't the main problem isn't that my tax dollars are going to murder, you know, it's fun planned parenthood

32:00

The main problem is that people are murdering people And so I think we need to keep the focus on that.

32:06

I think that anything else Although I would love to see them strip that out of the budget

32:12

I think we have to keep our focus on equal protection and I think if we do that Then these other things will happen automatically.

32:20

I think if we keep the focus that life begins the fertilization We should be providing equal protection to that life

32:27

Then we'll see all these other things happen, but whenever we're willing to accept these compromises like oh, well, let's just make it illegal to You know to to murder babies after they're born, right?

32:39

You know, there's a whole big push in the federal government to pass that bill and it's like Guys, if that's where you're like, that's our victory then

32:49

You're gonna at best you're gonna get that but you're probably not even gonna get that But if you go all the way over here

32:56

To the actual principle right stick with the principle that here's when life begins

33:02

And here's how we should protect it like all other life Then you're gonna get these other things right?

33:07

But you got you have to shift the whole window this way In order to get any of it. Yeah. Trump has been usually pretty good in the business world especially

33:17

I mean, that's the art of the deal right of like trying to Go three steps past what he actually wants so that he can

33:26

Negotiate and get what he wants and this is an issue that i've noticed Uh for republicans, they're not willing to play hardball like that They don't want to go for an aggressive measure and then okay, let's say there's a something happens in committee and Uh, you know, it's a heartbeat bill, whatever

33:43

They they just like they they go for the heartbeat bill from the beginning. They already have like almost

33:51

For some of them I suppose an admission that you know, maybe it's it's not a child before that heartbeat is there and yeah, it does strike me as like, um,

34:01

It's odd that this is one issue Maybe there's others that I haven't thought of but where? We don't play hardball because there's other issues that we will certainly play hardball on immigration has been one of them uh, so Yeah, yeah good good thoughts there.

34:14

Um some other questions here a question from dr. Bob Uh, is the state by state approach ultimately feasible it seems impossible in a place like california

34:25

And we were maybe talking about this, uh off Before we started recording. How can the republicans get abolition done without getting booted at the national level?

34:36

Um, so this is tactics and strategy, right not morality Uh in the sense of like we're not he's not asking what's right and wrong

34:43

But he's saying like how do you make any gains in california? I have that same question I'm sitting in new york right now.

34:49

I don't even know what to do Yeah well, I think I think it has to become there's a started a lot of points with this but Let me start at this one.

35:00

So I think that it has to become an issue that republicans um are consistent on uh

35:07

And consistent on our position and consistent with when life begins consistent with how we treat that So we have to start with that and then we have to start with our demand

35:15

And stop undermining all of our own arguments. Um, you know, that's been happening for a long time So we have to we have to get clear on that and then

35:23

In these states, you know, like like your own or like california You know, I know some some folks are like well

35:30

Let's just try to get a heartbeat bill or let's just try to get this or let's just try to get that or let's Just try to get a born alive infant protection act.

35:36

Um but even even those things are ultimately They are they undermine our own arguments and they actually end up setting us back and delaying things because There's a lot of state like I just mentioned earlier

35:52

There's a lot of states that have passed heartbeat bills born alive in the protection acts chemical abortion

35:57

They've passed all these things and abortions are still happening there um, and so You know

36:05

Our goal is not to pass a bill. Our goal is not to pass a piece of legislation Our goal

36:10

Is to establish justice, you know as god's required and to protect children to provide equal protection right, that's what our goal is and so You know, the goal isn't to just you know make

36:23

Give give people, you know better ratings on their pro -life, you know organization, you know voting vote

36:29

You know, you get an a plus or whatever For passing a bill that ultimately did nothing And so I know folks in you know, like new york and california may say boy

36:39

I would I would give anything Even just have a heartbeat bill But go look around at the states that actually have heartbeat bills and you'll see they're not actually doing anything other than They're making people think that abortion is has, you know been taken care of um, but when it actually hasn't and the other thing that they do is they make people look like Their pro -life and get the pro -life votes without actually doing anything to actually protect children

37:06

Is it possible though? You know, you know marathas and I do though that like a heartbeat bill though would protect some of the children at later stages where um,

37:17

I don't know maybe maybe there's Maybe maybe people mothers are still bold enough to uh

37:24

Do some kind of a an at -home abortion. I mean, I don't want to get vivid here but you know

37:29

Using more than just a board of patients um, right Because if they can't go into a clinic and get that done that seems like a strong disincentive

37:39

From having the abortion they either have to travel to another state that allows it I suppose Or do it at home and at those later stages that is a severe uh health or you know, that's a risk that is a risk to a mother's life when you got people essentially operating that um, you know without uh medical uh facilities and so forth so um

38:02

You correct me if i'm wrong here. It would seem to me though that that might would save at least a few lives It would seem so and and perhaps there are a small number that are saved but actually then

38:13

You know as far as like individual. Yeah, there's certainly cases out there where people say. Oh, I didn't go through with it because of this

38:20

But as far as the actual data, it shows that it it overall it actually doesn't save lives and and I think what's happening is that So, you know harvey bill is basically a six -week abortion ban um, but then even the harvey bill says this doesn't apply to the mother so that it's still a you know, it's still

38:40

Yeah up to 40 weeks for the mother. So these abortion pills that you order um, they actually

38:46

You know that they come With you know instructions and they say they can be used up to 13 weeks

38:52

And there's even people that are going you can even go like into you know reddit chat rooms and There's people they're like, well, my baby's bigger than this and um

39:02

They're like, oh well, you can just double up And so there are a lot of people that are still there that are doing that and um, you know, and we're seeing that you know, not just people talking about but actually people like You know posting pictures of it

39:17

And um, it's pretty horrific so it's still it's still happening the harvey bills, you know has you may

39:25

Indicate may you know impact a few people? But overall has very very little effect.

39:31

Uh, certainly not the effect that people are led to believe it has It sounds to me like what's happening is people are responding to these limitations by actually being more

39:41

Uh on top of it, you know if it's a if it's legal Uh for the first two trimesters or something you're going you have an opportunity and you can think about it

39:51

Maybe that actually gives you more opportunity to think through maybe save the child's life But if there is a limitation

39:57

At a certain stage then you are incentivized if you're gonna do an abortion to do it early

40:02

That is that what's going on? That's what it sounds I think so. I think there's definitely that and and I think it actually ends up resulting in in more abortions again for some people

40:12

Um, you know, it's up i've sometimes described a heartbeat bill as a hurry up and get your abortion, you know bill

40:19

Um that that does say hey, you should actually act more quickly and rush into this decision even faster

40:25

Um, so I think we certainly see that as an effect as well Yeah, that's I I hadn't really uh noodled on that a whole lot that that would be the the impact um, because you know,

40:36

I thought well if If a mother can't get to the facilities to get an abortion, you know

40:43

No abortion safe, but you know in a way that's not as threatening to her life Um, then she's more likely to keep the baby

40:51

I mean that that's how i've kind of thought like well, but i'm not i'm not I can't get myself completely into the mind of these people and if anything has experience has taught me

41:01

Um, they think differently It's it's just going to these clinics and seeing some of the people that come in who are brazen and i've

41:07

I don't know if you've seen that more lately, but it seems to me Uh comparing what I see now at abortion clinics to what

41:14

I saw years ago There is much more of a hardenedness About they don't care like it's murder.

41:20

That's fine. Um I like how do you even reason with someone like that whose conscience is that seared you really can't right?

41:28

Uh, and and if that's where we're going then it's going to take a lot of power and law to um,

41:34

To do something about that Uh, all right, so we have some more uh questions here, let's see we have um, uh conceptual clarity

41:43

What can we do to get pastors to stand up against the state referenda? Pushed by the pro -abortion side and vigorously oppose them and preach against them

41:55

So not a political question as much but what about pastors who? How do you see them being involved in this fight in a better way?

42:03

Yeah, well, I think pastors You know, I guess as far as how to get them there That's I hope we can figure that out.

42:10

But as far as what they should be doing um You know, I think pastors

42:16

Need to go study the god's word Okay And because I I remember what you know, i've always been pro.

42:23

I grew up pro -life, you know, my parents voted pro -life We're republicans life begins at conception. I know that I was always against abortion

42:30

But it wasn't until I actually started getting involved with this and You know,

42:36

I you know, I even started speaking, you know About abolition and things like that and I and someone invited me to speak at a conference

42:44

About the issue in general and I thought you know what? I really need to do a talk about What does the bible say?

42:50

About when life begins and and then look at the science and all that as well, but start with the bible

42:56

You know, does the bible say anything about it or is it just kind of these these, you know vague?

43:02

Like before I knew you before you were, you know born I knew you or knit you together in your mother's womb. Is it just kind of vague statements or does it actually?

43:10

clear Like no, no life begins at fertilization. Is that even in the bible?

43:15

Or are we just kind of being this bible is kind of vague or is you know is abortion mentioned in the bible or or even how we're to deal with it or How we're to abolish it or make it illegal for everyone.

43:25

Is that in the bible? And The more I looked the more I saw it's very clear.

43:32

It's very clear This would be a much longer conversation, but it's very clear when life begins at fertilization

43:38

There's so many things in the bible to make that clear Just one of them for example was that you know, the number one word

43:45

I think one of the top words used for children Uh throughout the bible is the word seed

43:52

And when is a seed a seed it's whenever literally go study, you know go study plants

43:58

Botany and it's you know When a seed becomes a seed when the sperm from one plant and the the ovum from another plant come together

44:06

That's when you have a seed And so that's when the life begins of the new plant.

44:13

Well, god uses that exact same terminology To describe children that they are seed

44:19

And uh, anyways many many other examples in scripture just make it clear when life begins Clear how we're to deal with it exodus 21

44:27

Um, you know on how we should deal with that, you know God says do not show partiality in judgment as far as how we deal with it legally loving our neighbor as ourselves

44:36

Okay, let's protect them with the same laws protect us. So I would just encourage pastors Don't take my word for it

44:42

Take god's word for it and go actually study this issue And see what god has to say about it and then get up in the pulpit and talk about it and tell people about it because You know, the sheep are lost without a shepherd and we need shepherds that are willing to To labor in the word and in prayer.

44:59

That's you know What elders you know pastors are supposed to be doing? And then bring that and feed the sheep and equip them for the work of ministry

45:07

And I think that's what the church has to be doing. Yeah. Good word. Good word. I hadn't thought about that with the seed language, um,

45:14

I often bring up john the baptist and leaving the holy spirit and dwelling him even before birth, but um

45:22

Here's another question for you. This sounds like this is a very specific question for a real scenario william

45:28

If couples in your small group were promoting ibf And the leader won't address it when they ask for prayer

45:36

Would you break fellowship or go over the leader's head and bring it up anyway

45:43

Uh, I I think what he's asking is would you challenge that essentially? um, and he doesn't really give any uh

45:51

Right, right. I don't know if it's just promoting ibf with cautions or anything, but you take that any direction you want

45:57

Yeah, I mean always there's so many dynamics. It's hard to as a lawyer I'm, always like I can't give you specific legal advice because I don't know all the details of your situation

46:07

But but you know, obviously as christians we should be very slow to break fellowship with people

46:13

Um, so, you know labor with them through this issue talk try to talk with people, you know, um

46:19

Make make appeals, you know with humility, but but I think we have to talk about it. We have to talk about you know

46:26

What goes on with ibf and educate people about that warn them about that And yeah, we we can ask our our leaders and our churches to be doing that But if they're not we can do we we can and should go directly to the brothers and sisters that we have

46:42

And warn them about that. I remember years ago And this is the opening of a whole other issue if we're not already controversial enough, but I read a book by randy alcorn

46:52

Called does the birth control pill cause abortions And it was before I was married and a friend a friend of mine had asked me like oh

47:00

How many children do you want and I said like oh, you know five or six, you know, and uh

47:12

I'm, not sure what happened there. I'm hoping that people can still See me It looks like our friend bradley pierce is frozen

47:21

So let let me know if you're streaming. Yeah, he froze. Okay, so you're still seeing me.

47:26

Let me uh Let let me remove him from the stage And i'm going to message him and um

47:36

Ask him to rejoin Can you rejoin? Um I was really looking forward to this too.

47:45

That was a really Bad time for him to go We can see you john.

47:50

Okay. Well, i'm glad you could see me Man, what a bad time for him to go. All right. Well, hopefully he'll come.

47:56

Oh, here he is. All right Sorry about that. No, that's all right.

48:01

I was worried that it was on my end. I'm glad it's not so uh, you it was a terrible time for it to Telling us the story and it was like, yeah, you know the good parts

48:12

Let you continue. Yeah, so Anyway, I read this book and I was like, wow, that's unbelievable

48:19

And I had you know a number of friends, you know who are married That I didn't know whether they used the birth control pill or not, but I had you know

48:27

I thought you know what? I need to let them know about this and actually like bought 10 copies of the book and send it to them you know, most of them, you know didn't really talk to me about it and And uh, but some of them were very very grateful.

48:41

And anyways getting back to the issue here I think that we have a duty to warn people and and ultimately, you know after that it's between them and god, but but we have a duty to warn people and so Um, I think that's what we that's what this person, you know should do

48:56

In a humble way and kind of working, you know Again, I don't know all the details but working through channels as much as possible

49:03

You know as a seminarian I remember in class. We had an ethics class Hearing the professor talk about ibf and I remember thinking to myself and I and i'm maybe this is to my shame but I don't think a lot of other people thought well,

49:15

I don't really need to pay attention too much to this because I don't think i'll ever have to go through any of that.

49:20

And uh, so, you know, this is a minority of couples and um

49:26

The thing is though Obviously if you're a pastor you have to counsel people who are going to have these questions are going to be in your office

49:32

And my experience has been most pastors know very little about ibf and The evils that can be attached to that process

49:42

And so counseling couples and that means first you need to understand exactly what it is how it works.

49:48

What are some of the dangers? What are the things to avoid if a couple goes that direction? It most pastors

49:55

I would wager have Almost no information about it and they probably think it's okay.

50:01

It's just um, You know kind of like getting surgery if you have a broken arm, it's just a medical procedure um a deficiency and uh, so I I think what you're saying is 100 right we should um,

50:15

We should probably encourage our pastors to look into this and and be vocal um

50:22

Let's see. There's there's some other questions here and we we have about 10 minutes I I try not to go too long after an hour generally.

50:28

So um, just so you know as we get into this, uh, here's a question for you from Uh cappy lover.

50:36

I don't think that's the actual name there. It's a cat picture So I don't think a cat's right again, but how can we get the organizations to do more to stop these ballot initiatives?

50:46

I'm assuming these are the ballot initiatives Uh or constitutional protections of abortion so it's very practical question yeah, again,

50:56

I think I think it comes back to We need to stop when I say we I mean the pro -life movement needs to stop acting like um

51:03

The work is done, right? Because whenever you whenever you're like, hey, we've saved all these babies and we were down to only you know five abortions in our state and And roe versus wade is gone and you're not actually talking about but Right.

51:20

All these babies are still dying and it's still legal for mothers, right? If you're only talking about the things that are

51:26

Sound really good Then you're actually putting people to sleep when you do that and you're taking people out of the fight

51:32

Because you're telling them that the work's done the fight's over and so that I think that's a big issue and one reason why pro -life movement has lost many of these ballot initiatives and And why as you mentioned earlier, it seems like they have no plan

51:47

Uh in a lot of places and I think it's because they really don't have a plan I've actually even talked to some insiders that kind of say that there's not really a plan, you know

51:56

We've we overturned roe and it's like well now what do we do? And uh, whereas the pro -abortion side does have a clear plan and they're being consistent with that And that's where we have to be consistent.

52:05

They're they're consistent is that you know, it's not a baby But even if it is mom's rights trump baby's rights and so abortion on demand up till birth taxpayer funded um

52:16

You know, we don't have a consistent. Um You know plan on or you know vision on our side

52:23

We say life begins at conception, but you know, the pro -life movement doesn't actually act like it. That's what we've got to start doing Uh, here's a question

52:31

Basically, william boone is asking if you are against birth control or you think it's wrong Do I think birth, you know, that's a long issue, but I do

52:40

I I think that uh, one of the aspects of birth control the actual pill

52:45

That every christian every person should look into is what the effects of it are

52:51

And some of the effects of it are to prevent the sperm from meeting the egg And so there's nothing aboard a patient, you know as far as that goes

52:58

But one of the effects of it is that after the sperm has met the egg And joined together and you have a new life with its own unique DNA growing on its own

53:07

Is one of the purposes of of it is to actually? Thin the lining of the uterine wall um in order to prevent that child from implanting

53:18

And and getting access to you know nutrients and oxygen and things that you need for life and ultimately you know essentially, um starves and asphyxiates that baby to death and uh people need to understand that So I think that is wrong and people need to need to look into that What effects uh from pacific again?

53:40

What effects on our water supply result from so many in -home abortions being done? I don't know if you have that info.

53:47

Yeah, you know i've seen some info from some pro -life organizations Talking about that.

53:52

I think it does have an effect on the water supply It is in some ways. Um You know, there's two things one is like Guys who cares about the water supply?

54:03

They're murdering people over here You know, let's like let's deal with that and then we can deal with the water supply but You know again, there's actually some pro -life organizations.

54:13

There's one of them in particular Um students for life action i'll go ahead and mention that they have a bill that they're pushing around the country

54:20

To actually require the abortionists You know who send these pills to women?

54:26

Actually send them a body bag basically in order to put the body in there and then get it

54:35

Disposed of as medical waste instead of flushing it down the toilet flushing him or her down the toilet and again

54:43

That's one of those guys The goal is not to make this more sanitary You know, the goal is to abolish it and um

54:53

And so yeah, there is an effect on the water supply But it makes me it reminds me of the what god says about the shedding of innocent blood

55:02

That it pollutes the land Right. That's what god says happens when you shed innocent blood

55:07

It pollutes the land and then that blood cries out to him for judgment and if we don't provide justice

55:14

Then he will to those who are committing it and to the people of the land He says that are allowing it and so that's the that's the pollution that we need to be worried about most yeah,

55:24

I did not know about that I maybe the logic behind that would be they have to sort of have a mental pause if they're putting the child in a body bag and Think about the fact that this is a human

55:36

I don't know but um Remember it was a few years ago Not a few. Um, it's probably more like a decade or two decades ago when there was a big push

55:44

I mean there still kind of is but there was a big push at one point uh to get these um Uh, why am

55:50

I blanking on the name these machines that you know show you the ultrasound ultrasound, thank you ultrasound machines um into as many communities as possible because the idea being if if a woman could see

56:02

Her child on the screen and if you made that um, one of the the things that she had to go through in order to receive help

56:09

From a pro -life organization like a care net or something that she would choose life

56:15

And um, and I don't know all the numbers on that I mean it makes sense to me that that would be you see your child up there on the screen

56:23

But it seems like the younger generations are becoming more aggressively pro -abortion despite the technology

56:32

Clearly showing this is an actual child. The information has is out there in a clearer form than it has ever been

56:41

You can access that right away easily from your home, you know mobile device

56:47

But uh, it's the human hearts that are hardened. Um, Right, and that's something that an ultrasound machine can't fix

56:55

You know or a body bag or some of these other items I suppose but That's my own commentary.

57:02

I don't know. Yeah, go ahead. No, I mean again that's why we ultimately have to talk about this issue as Sin right and that those who are committing it the women who are committing it the men who are you know

57:14

Pressuring them into it or facilitating it or involved in any way or just abdicating their role to you know to lead um, you know that that they are culpable as sinners and it should be a crime god says it's a crime

57:28

That's how we should treat it. And when we say like a lot of the pro -life organizations have been

57:34

Well, everyone is a victim Then You know that that's that doesn't solve the issue, right?

57:41

Christ came to save sinners and so we have to admit our sin Before we can receive, you know, the the the solution to that sin, which is you know salvation through christ

57:52

But we have to get to that issue. Yeah All right. One question real quick for me was freeing the jews from pharaoh not a political reality john from gibberty jabber

58:01

Uh, I think the intent behind that is maybe trying It's not phrased maybe well, but I think the intent is to say that If god is behind the effort, then it will succeed to which

58:13

I say amen. And yes, uh in our Democratic process we have uh, which is not universal.

58:19

Not every country has the processes we have It does take a certain amount of people uh to get policy done at least in a legislative body and so um,

58:30

So you can look at where votes are where polling says people are and you can see Perhaps if god is working in People's consciences and that's what we need to pray for if that's the mechanism that he's going to use then he's going to use it

58:42

But no, I do agree. God is ultimately in control. Um, Bradley one last question for you that I I think we should end on here is really the reason

58:51

I had you on Uh, what can normal average everyday christians, uh blue or red states?

58:58

Where should they be putting their resources and time if they care about this issue? Which they should care about it and Where do you see maybe an encouraging?

59:07

Uh glimmer of hope where we can maybe see a victory here in the near future Yeah, well,

59:15

I mean I'm part of the abolitionist movement. I think that that's where christians should get behind and support

59:21

I think it's consistent with what god says we should do Uh and not just what he says we should do but how he says we should go about it

59:29

Um, so I think that's where christians should get behind and support Um, and and we're seeing a lot of a lot of movement on that a lot of progress being made

59:39

Yes, it's slow. We're you know, we all want things to happen instantly Um, but that's not normally how god works sometimes, you know abolishing evils this massive

59:51

Um takes generations even and but we need to be faithful, right?

59:56

That's what we're called to be and then we trust him with the results And so I think that's where christians need to get behind.

01:00:01

We're seeing in the bills. We've been introducing bills since 2016 We're seeing those bills getting more co -authors more legislators signing on to those bills than ever before More of those bills being filed this year than any any year before Um those bills getting further we got uh to the committee

01:00:19

You know in uh to the floor vote in north dakota this year had more votes on the floor than we've ever gotten

01:00:25

Uh more votes in committees that we're we're seeing than we've ever had before And you know if you under if you study history, it gives you hope

01:00:34

That's not original with me. I forget who originally said that but You know you you look back at like william wilberforce trying to abolish the slave trade and then trying to abolish slavery

01:00:44

And starting off with very few votes in favor and then just kept reintroducing it reintroducing it reintroducing it

01:00:50

And slowly the votes, you know began to climb and yes, sometimes they dipped and then sometimes they came back

01:00:56

But eventually got the votes to do it and and I think that's what we have to do and be willing to do

01:01:02

Uh, we live in a very instant gratification short -term thinking kind of society

01:01:07

And we have to have we have to get out of that and be and think biblically think generationally think

01:01:15

You know more eternally in the way that we act and when we do that, then then we don't have although I want it to end today um

01:01:24

We can still have patience knowing that as long as we're doing what we should do Sowing the seed then we can trust god with the results and when that's going to happen

01:01:33

Amen, yeah, we have questions now coming in on the 14th amendment and all kinds of things, but guys it's been over an hour

01:01:38

So if you want bradley to come back on the program sometime then maybe we can do that But I appreciate your time and I know it's very valuable

01:01:46

Uh, I say I think I read online you how many kids do you have? We're expecting number 12 right now actually

01:01:54

Farm or something. I mean is there like I wish maybe maybe someday but no right now we don't

01:02:02

So, uh, so you're a lot of speed there but um, you know, you're you certainly have

01:02:08

Um, you're plateful. You're trying to do the right thing on this. So I would just ask people out there Hey pray for bradley pray for everyone involved in this fight.

01:02:16

It's not easy And we are trusting the lord that he's going to bless these efforts over the long haul and uh,

01:02:22

If we don't even live to see them, we will we will gain his um, Well done and thou good and faithful servant as we go to heaven.

01:02:29

So Uh with that, thank you so much. God bless and we'll talk later.