Spain Trip Review on Today's Dividing Line

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:34

And welcome to the Dividing Line on a Tuesday morning at our regularly scheduled time. I'm sure that shocks a few of you.

00:41

We normally don't do this, but here we are on a Tuesday morning. Just back, haven't even been back 24 hours yet from Spain, thanks to the fact that my transatlantic flight was delayed and we went around circles very slowly for quite some time, which means by the time

00:59

I landed, my flight home had already left and it was the last flight of the evening. So in all the hundreds of thousands of miles

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I have flown, Sunday night was the first time I've ever been stranded in the city.

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That's very good. I cannot complain. I cannot complain. And U .S. Airways took care of me and I had a place to stay and got home yesterday, which made for a long, long, long, long trip.

01:27

But we are home here safely and that's the important part. My daughter is in channel freaking out because it's snowing in Atlanta and she is a

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Arizona girl. I tried to warn her. I tried to tell her, you know, it's going to be 80 degrees here on Thursday. It's snowing there.

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And, you know, that's, you know, we've got it good here. There's no two ways about it.

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So anyways, welcome to the program. Lots to talk about, lots to talk about.

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I just posted a small article. I've posted two small articles today on Twitter using

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TweetShort. And that's where you tell Twitter's 140 character limit to take a flying leap.

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That's what TweetShort is all about. And I'm using it and I don't care about any of you

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Twitter purists. Look, that's what Michael does. Almost all of his tweets are a reference to a Facebook thing, which goes longer.

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So what does it matter? You know, really, that's not concerning about it.

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And Michael just responded, explicit is my word, consistent is yours.

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Well, actually, explicitly consistent would be mine. That's funny.

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Anyway, I've actually put two little articles up today where I've been challenging

03:00

Michael's statements right on the text itself. We rarely get to get into that level.

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And I honestly think that that's where we have our best ground.

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And so if you don't follow me on Twitter, and you know what I've decided I'm going to do? I mean, I have two

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Twitter accounts and I feel really badly about the second one. I never remember to cross post stuff.

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And now that I'm using TweetShort, I can't cross post stuff. I would have to copy it and then re -sign in on the other one and then post it there.

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I'm just not going to do it. I think I may close the other one down and just tell everybody, you know what?

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If you don't like my cycling stuff, forget it. Then don't follow me. I'm just not going to worry about the complaints anymore.

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This is where I'm going to put everything. And if you're following A &O Director, you're only getting a sixth of what

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I post anyways. So I think I'm just going to shut that down. But anyhow, it's over there if you want to take a look at that.

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And you'll find it to be interesting. I do want to talk a little bit about this past weekend and in the process, a few things that came along.

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And we'll probably take your phone calls toward the end of the program at 877 -753 -3341. 8777 calls.

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I hadn't thought about that. Doing software changes over there and hence the voice behind the curtain is a little nervous today.

04:36

I didn't put any bailing wire on the Comrex machine today. You hadn't even thought about that? It should work.

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It really does. It ain't broke, so I guess I don't have to fix it. We'll see what happens. But hopefully, once he gets everything figured out, what this will allow us to do is

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I can put stuff up on my screen and share it with you folks on the live video stream, which would be really cool.

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The exciting thing about what this is capable of doing, and I've seen a number of demonstrations on this, and these are people that are actually out there doing it.

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And that's a nice thing. It's not coming from the manufacturers just trying to sell the thing. The exciting thing is

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I can take, for instance, when we tried to play the Ergon Kanner clips, and we had all the...

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I was just doing it wrong. And I can put from your computer,

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I can actually take... You can have a YouTube screen up, and you don't even have to maximize it. I can actually zero in on just the

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YouTube window off of your computer, and as you're playing it, they're watching it, and the sound is coming through the soundboard just like normal.

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And you can do this full screen. I can actually switch from full screen to zooming into the video window.

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Whatever you're doing, we can sit there and do all kinds of different switches. As I mentioned, that'll be great for the folks who watch.

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It's not going to be all that great for the folks on the podcast, which I'm not really sure what to do about.

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Maybe if you listen on the podcast, you go, I have no idea what's going on here, that'll force you to take the time to watch the video.

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But what it could allow me to do, and I will not try to do it all the time so that we don't lose all of our podcasters, but what it will allow me to do is to put a cord and stuff on the screen and look at textual variants and point to stuff, and that'll be really cool.

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I can put manuscripts on my screen and see how this says this and see how this.

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That's just uber -geeky stuff. One thing I haven't told you about is there's actually a checkbox where I can actually select, and it'll actually, or I think on your end you would select it, whether or not you show your pointer or not.

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So for instance, when you're watching a YouTube video, showing the pointer would be distracting because it always seems to land right in the middle of what you're doing.

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As opposed to if you're working with a cordance, you can be pointing at things and talking about it.

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This is going to be really cool. Pointing and selecting and doing stuff like that, yeah, that'll be really cool. I keep looking over at the channel and Summers.

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I've never seen this before. I'm like, what is happening? I've seen snow that has already fallen once or twice.

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No, I've never seen snow fall from the sky. This is so crazy.

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Is it okay to drive in this stuff? Well, there you go.

07:43

There's what happens when you are a native Phoenician and didn't get many trips up to Flagstaff, evidently.

07:53

Anyhow, let me talk a little bit about this past weekend. First, this isn't specifically about my encounters with Michael Brown, but I got on the plane, flew across the country.

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See, I had farther to go than Michael did. I had 4 ,000 more miles and about nine more hours in the air than Michael did because he's already on the

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East Coast, so that was a little bit easier for him. But I flew from here to Philadelphia, and I get off the plane.

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Well, actually, anymore. We're still taxiing, and I start looking at my emails.

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There's this email that says, have you seen this? I click on this link, and it's the

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Peter Lumpkins thing. For those of you who have not heard, this was

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Wednesday? I think it was Wednesday. Yeah, it was

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Wednesday. The story broke while I was in the air that good old

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Petey Lumpkins, Lumpy himself, had...

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There was a massive explosion of cronyism in Georgia on Wednesday.

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You got my back, and I got yours, which has never happened in Georgia before.

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Right, okay, not really. But I get off the plane, and I am laughing.

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I am simply laughing. I mean, I know it's sad for the students there. I feel badly for the students.

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I feel badly for the alumni and all that stuff. But look, hey, it's the trustees that put this guy in charge.

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So I'm sorry if your student and your money goes to Bruton Parker.

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You might want to reconsider that. But it's just so obvious that this is payback for Lumpkins just absolutely prostituting himself in any sense of decorum, truthfulness, consistency, logic, rationality, anything else.

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In the abject defense of a proven liar. It's just shocking.

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It's like he's been willing to just throw it out there. He's been willing to throw so much garbage around that anybody willing to do that...

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So the big question immediately crossed everybody's mind. Everybody that was contacting me and everything else.

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Everybody, the first question is, OK, if he's vice president of communications, what's

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Timothy Rogers going to be? Which vice president is he going to be? Because if he's handing out jobs as, hey, you've stood with me, and you've proven you can lie as well as I can.

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And so let's see what we can get you to do too. Who knows what the position for Timothy Rogers would be.

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But interestingly enough today, I caught a clip on J .D. Hall. I didn't get the

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URL. Somebody was going to track that down for me. And if they did, I missed it.

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Yay, Summer's birthday present just arrived. When I ordered it, they said it was going to arrive on her birthday.

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But then I get the thing and it's like... When the

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UPS man knocked, Clementine fell over. I'm not sure what the connection between those two things is.

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I really need to shut the channel down for right now. Just focus, focus, you know.

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Anyhow, what was I saying? We were laughing. This is all we could...

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What else can you do in a situation like this but start laughing? So that was the first thing.

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I arrived in Philadelphia, and there's the news of Peter Lumpkins, vice president of communications.

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Well, that should prove to be really interesting. And then, of course, while I was in Spain, there was a...

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Well, evening. It was morning over here, but evening for me at some point. I think it was

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Friday night over there. So it would have been Friday morning here where you and Lumpkins were going back and forth on Twitter.

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So he wants to challenge... He's come up with the user or a liar approach, which is what

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I've said many times because we've documented it on video. But again, video documentation means nothing to these guys.

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It just doesn't exist. It doesn't really matter. We don't have to deal with it. And then

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Peter Lumpkins, who I guess has been a professor of church history for years. I didn't know this.

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I've not seen any of his books on this. I mean, he's put out a pathetic little booklet on Calvinism, which is beneath the level of laughable.

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But I haven't seen his other books on church history. Evidently, this guy's an expert on church history.

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I'd like to know where he's taught church. I'll bet he'll get to teach church history at Bruton Parker.

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Yeah, there you go. The new professor of church history at Bruton Parker will be

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Peter Lumpkins, since he's already VP of communications. Why not? And so I actually get back from doing a debate with Michael Brown on Revelation TV, and I suggested a much better debate to have at Bruton Parker, which was resolved,

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Ergenkanner has lied concerning his past and his upbringing.

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I affirm, you deny, let's do it at Bruton Parker. Well, of course he didn't. No, I don't want to do that.

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Cervantes! That's right, Cervantes! Sorry, panicked. No, sorry, that's all I've got, because I know

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I could never face you on that, and I don't have the integrity to say otherwise. Anyway, so there were a few lumpy explosions over the course of the weekend.

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They weren't even distractions. It was just sort of, you just shake your head anymore and go, really? Seriously? But J .D.

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Hall mentioned, and I didn't get the thing, he claims to have found, since I haven't seen the

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URL, let's be careful here, he has claimed to have found a comment that Timothy Rogers placed on a blog in 2008.

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And I think there was some former Southwestern prof, I guess, that sued the seminary and Paige Patterson.

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And a lot of people were saying, you're not supposed to, Christians are not supposed to sue other Christians. And so I guess

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Timothy Rogers jumped in and, don't do this, unless it's a black and white thing, just don't do this.

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And now, of course, that little inconsistency is being brought up, but not like Timothy Rogers would ever care about inconsistencies.

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But it was rather, again, humorous to see the inconsistencies.

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So anyway, that was the weird stuff about the weekend. Let me just say, once I got to Malaga, which

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I did not realize, I don't know why I had in my mind had placed it, and I should look at,

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I've got a world map over there, should look if they have it. I had no idea I was within visual range of the

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Rock of Gibraltar. In fact, at one point, the guy pointed, Tim was driving me from the airport.

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We were actually in Mijas, which is down the road a little bit from Malaga. And the day

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I got there, it was clear enough. He said, see those rocks jutting out of the water way out there on the horizon?

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And I said, that's Africa. So that's the Straits of Gibraltar over there. And I'm like, really?

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Wow, we are really in south, south, south, south, south Spain here, way, way down there.

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Anyway, it was a beautiful area. Looks a lot like Arizona.

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Oh, there it is. Jason just brought up the web archive from SBC Today.

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And so here I'm clicking on it. Yeah, that terrible archive.

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Oh, how, why can't we get rid of those things? Yes. Why? How does it?

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Right. Sometimes I picture Herman Munster just going, darn, darn, darn, darn, darn. That's true.

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That's true. Well, actually, this isn't, there are 149 responses to this.

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And Tim Rogers actually wrote the article. So I don't have any idea how

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I'm going to get through 149 articles, 49 comments in there. But anyhow, it is on web archive,

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I suppose, so we can track it down eventually. Internet Archive Wayback Machine is what it's called.

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I wonder where we got that idea. Anyhow, what was I talking about? Oh, the area really looks a lot like Arizona.

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I mean, there was a mountain out where they put us in a really nice place. The folks at Revelation TV really were very kind to us.

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And we had plenty of food to eat and stuff like that. And outside the window, outside the back actually patio -type door thing in the hotel, there's this mountain.

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And I'm like, man, I feel like I'm in Tucson. It really had the feel of like Tucson, Arizona. Very, very similar geographically at that point.

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Almost everybody spoke English or could speak English. I had zippity -doo -dah zero

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Spanish food the whole time I was in Spain. I mean, fish and chips or we went to an

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Italian place one night. In fact, the night before the debate on the atonement, not predestination, the dinner before that turned out to be a mini debate in of itself.

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And that was at a real nice Italian place. And the spaghetti bolognese there was great.

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And so it was really interesting, the area. I didn't get to do any looking around or anything like that.

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I would have loved to have driven down the straits. That would have been great, but busy times.

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And we recorded some other programs other than the debates. I was on Michael's program live on Thursday night,

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I think it was. And then we recorded a morning.

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Well, I think the morning show was live. And then the next day I recorded a program with Tim on New Testament Reliability.

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I'm not sure when that'll air. If it has aired, I don't know. Maybe they'll send some stuff. I don't know. But so we were kept pretty busy.

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And we'd record and then go back to the hotel and get rested up for the evening because of the time shift.

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And now that I'm looking at it, I wonder why it's an hour difference there. That's interesting looking at the

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I guess the map sort of confuses things. But we were debating between 10 p .m.

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and midnight there in Mijas. So it was late night stuff.

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And so I wanted to make sure I was properly rested and would be coherent at that time of night.

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I normally don't stay up that late. And so it was scheduling and jet lag and all the rest of that kind of stuff.

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So the folks at Revelation TV took great care of us. And in regards to the two debates,

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I posted an article yesterday. I wrote it on my iPad on the flight back from Philadelphia to Phoenix yesterday and got it posted up last night.

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And some people have been complaining that it wasn't the normal formal type of debate.

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And I knew it wasn't going to be because they had sent us an example of how this was going to work that had included the debate between Peter Tatchell and Dave Robinson on gay marriage, on redefining of marriage, the profaning of marriage, as I think we need to start saying.

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And so I knew that the first hour was going to be interchange, discussion between the two participants.

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You'd have a short opening statement that sort of lays out where you want to go.

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And then, look, it's tough when you do not have a structured period of time.

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You don't necessarily have a specific thesis statement. But the reality is this is television, and you can't buck the system, shall we say.

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People want to see movement. They want to see exchange. They don't want—they tend to start drifting on a five -minute presentation.

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And, of course, remember what happened last time I was on Revelation TV on the Jack Mormon debate on King James -only -ism.

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I forget how much time we had at that—anyone remember how long—Algo would have to remember how long we had to do opening statements.

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We actually had an opening statement, and Jack Mormon read his opening statement on television.

22:05

He read it. Well, that does not work on television. I'm sorry. I knew it didn't work on television, which is why when they came to me,

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I didn't read anything. I just turned toward the audience, turned toward the cameras, and spoke to them.

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And it's just the nature of television. Most of us do not want to sit still looking at a screen watching somebody reading something.

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And if they've been talking for too long without movement or without exchanging, people start losing attention.

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So I knew it was going to be like that. In that first debate, though, I repeatedly had to try to bring the topic back to the subject of the evening.

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Part of that, in the first hour, was due to the fact that Michael's arguments against particular redemption aren't against particular redemption.

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They're against universal or unconditional election. And how many times have I said that even when

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I hear someone say, Well, I'm a four -point Calvinist. And I just go, What's your objections to the

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L, which is what it almost always is? When you start boiling down their objections, they're not objecting to limited atonement.

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They're objecting to unconditional election. They're not actually a four -pointer at all. And the vast majority of argumentation is not derived from what the atonement actually accomplishes.

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It's not derived from discussions of intent. It's really not derived from any of the explicit biblical passages that talk about what the result of the atonement actually is.

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They are derived specifically from objections to unconditional election.

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Or the type of objection that, Well, if that's true, then what about this text that says this over here that isn't really addressing atonement, but if it were true, then it wouldn't say it this way or something along those lines.

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And so, oh, look at that. Clem just took her first steps. I hope you recorded that.

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She almost did that. I surprised Summer. Yay, mark this day down.

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And it was during the dividing line. And that's why she obviously was trying to get back to the computer to be able to continue to hear what

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I was saying. That's why Clementine took her first steps. She just walked to me. Very good. You know, we were down in the lobby at the hotel and I still had

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Wi -Fi there. And so I asked Summer by text,

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I said, Could we do FaceTime? And so right as I got FaceTime going on, here comes

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Michael. And so I just sort of held it out a little bit. And so Michael and I were talking to Clementine and Summer via Facebook.

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So there you go. They got to do a little chat. But a little bit later on, she was standing there and I think it was another time we

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FaceTimed and she was standing there. And you could just see the look on her face was, I know it'd be more effective if I just walked over there because everybody else does it.

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And you could see her going, and then down to the knees and then back up again.

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But evidently, yeah. Yay. See, she was walking towards me and the computer.

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So there you go. My sonorous tones have summoned from my granddaughter her first steps.

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There you go. And terminal case is right. Evidence number one, the deal is good for early childhood development.

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There we go. We need to have some advertisements for get your child to listen to the dividing line and they will take their first steps there.

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There we just we just proved it. And there you go.

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What was I talking about? I don't know. Clementine was cheesing at grandpa and grandpa

26:04

Michael, too. There you go. Because he's a grandfather as well. So two old men going, oh, look at the little baby is what we were basically doing in the.

26:12

So anyhow. All right. So in that first that first portion of the of the of the debate, a lot of the discussion did get somewhat diluted.

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And some of you have sort of felt like I was disappointed because that no, I knew it was going to happen. But it's still my job to bring the topic back to the subject of atonement, because I got to realize the vast majority of the folks in that audience have never heard what

26:39

I was saying. In fact, let me just step back and say, I just think just on the level of having the opportunity of presenting that level of theological discussion, both subjects, both atonement and healing on really one of the largest.

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I think it is the largest television network station, whatever, in over there in Europe was a tremendous opportunity.

27:05

It really was to be able to have that kind of discussion, and especially between two people who actually believe the

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Bible is the word of God. You know, I mean, those poor people in Europe, they're just surrounded by theologians who would never have had that conversation because they don't really believe that the

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Bible is consistent. And so they don't really have anything to say. So that in and of itself was a really cool opportunity to be able to do that.

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So just on that level, I thought it was great. Now, I did think that there was a real difference between the two programs.

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The atonement one, you know, I expected in the second hour, you know, once you open up the phone lines on a subject like that.

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And when you think about it, let's get two people together on European TV to talk about, oh, the atonement and healing.

28:03

Talk about topics with tremendous tradition and emotion involved.

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I mean, I just know that so many of the people that are going to be watching are just going to have so many distractions, not just distractions around them, but theological, traditional, and emotional distractions on both subjects.

28:30

I mean, tough, tough topic there, both of them to address.

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And I knew that once we opened up the phone lines and the Twitter and all the rest of that stuff, that we'd be getting questions from every angle.

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And that's why I really wanted to try in the first hour to at least get across the main points.

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I mean, Hebrews 9 .15, there you've got a direct text directly teaching the particular nature of the atoning work of Christ.

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It's right there. So I got that out there. I got Hebrews 7 .24 .25 out there.

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I got Hebrews 9 .28. We got into a little bit of Hebrews 10, just touched on it.

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And we got the golden chain in and the statement as well, vitally important, from Romans 8 .30

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and following, who will bring a charge against God's elect, God's one who justifies. Those are all incredibly strong, strong, incredibly strong texts that I got in there.

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But right toward the end of the first hour was an exchange that I thought pretty much summarized what the issue was all about.

29:49

And the people that I recognize are experts or at least trained in listening to argumentation all caught the same thing.

30:01

They felt that there was a time in the first debate where the issue really was decided for the careful listener.

30:10

And I just got another Twitter. Yeah, Michael says,

30:16

I believe I clearly demonstrated the fallacy of the Calvinistic reading of John 6 during our DL debate. Well, Michael, I'm sorry, but you didn't.

30:24

What you did in John 6 was to say, well, all these previous texts change what we have there.

30:32

No, I don't believe that that's the case, and I've never seen Michael explain what

30:38

I wrote in the little mini article on Twitter. And that is, again, John 6 .37,

30:44

all that the Father gives me will come to me. Will come is belief. Will come comes after the giving.

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Michael has it backwards. Our coming is what determines our being given. No, that doesn't work in John 6.

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And you can assert it, but it doesn't work there. It's just that's an eisegetical assertion.

31:03

So I'll respond to that once we get done with the program here. Speaking of Michael, here was the exchange, and it's not all that long, so I won't speed it up.

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We were talking fast enough as it was. But I kept pushing at the end, despite Tim sort of getting in the way.

31:27

There had been one point where I quoted from Revelation chapter 5. Because I think Revelation 5, and that's one of the things

31:33

I said in the long tweet that I posted right before the program started. Revelation chapter 5, tremendous text, where the

31:41

Lamb says, You were slain and purchased with your blood men from every tribe, tongue, people, and nation.

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If Michael's position is right, it should simply say, You purchased every tribe, tongue, people, and nation. That's his position.

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But it doesn't say that. It says men from every tribe, tongue, people, and nation.

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There is the universality. It is without distinction, not without exception. It's right there.

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And I presented it, and right as I get done presenting it, Tim turns to him and asks him a question on a completely different topic.

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And so it was never followed up on. Which is unfortunate. But that's just the way these go.

32:25

So that was already passed, and so time was running out. And I wanted to really focus upon the key issue, and that was the fact that Michael's position divides the work of the high priest.

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The high priest can offer the sacrifice, but then not intercede for the people for whom he's offered the sacrifice.

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Utter violation. Even if, and he argues, and I responded to this in the article on our website, it says, well,

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Leviticus 16 is for every single Israelite. No, it's those of faith. The congregation, the whole concept of it, is that the people for whom this is going to be effective are those who are following the law.

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Not for those who are violating the law. It's for the remnant. It's for the people of true faith. But be that as it may, even if he takes that perspective, the high priest still interceded for everyone for whom the offering was made.

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And in his perspective, Jesus dies for every single human being who has ever lived, but he does not intercede for those who have already died.

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Why he would die for them when they're already condemned, I have no idea, but we didn't get to that. So here's that section of the program.

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You have to be made spiritually alive first. And so regeneration is what brings that about. Well, who is regenerated?

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The elect of God. Upon what basis? The fact that their salvation has been provided for perfectly in Jesus Christ.

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And so you see, every one of these texts, I am very concerned that one of the thoughts that people might have is, well, no one knows what the

34:07

Bible says. The ultimate determiner is who is consistent all the way through from beginning to end.

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And we have debated the first few parts. Now we're looking, however, at another issue. And I want to bring us back to that.

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What is the nature of Christ's intercession for a person in hell?

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Because I have alleged, and I have not heard any response to the fact, that there is a perfect connection between the audience for whom

34:35

Christ dies and those for whom he intercedes. So I want to know, I've mentioned a couple of times, what is the effect of Christ's intercession for a person in hell?

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There is no effect. He's not interceding for someone in hell. See, I only responded to predestination.

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You started those things. I'm simply responding to points that you made. And I brought up justification by faith, knowing how you believe as a

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Calvinist, but in point of fact, forgiveness is not actuated until someone believes. Repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins, et cetera, et cetera, throughout

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Scripture. And until those people repented, even if you say it was all an act of God, even if you say from beginning to end it was an act of God, until they repented and believed, they were not forgiven.

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So that's the simple point. It is salvation for those who believe. And Jesus prays in John 17 for those that will come to him, those that the

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Father will give. Who does the Father give? Those who believe, those who respond to his message. I'm consistent from Genesis to Revelation.

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I say without question it's a consistent message of God extending his love to the entire world and giving an opportunity for people to respond.

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He set it up like that in his sovereign will. That's backwards according to John 6, but I did not get an answer.

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I think you just said he's not interceding for anyone in hell. Now notice what's going on here.

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Michael didn't answer my question. And this does bother me at times, I mean, because I don't think it helps the audience at all, but he went back to a previous point he wanted to make and to comment on that.

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And of course, I recognize forgiveness is not actuated until belief takes place, but faith is a gift of God and is the result of regeneration.

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So it's an irrelevant argument against my position, but I had just asked a direct question.

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And he said, well, he's not interceding for anyone in hell. He knows what my point is. My point is he has now divided the audience of the sacrifice from the audience of intercession.

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You have a high priest who intercedes for a different group, a smaller group, than the sacrifice he just made is meant for.

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And so it would just strike me that that's what needs to be dealt with.

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So we went on. I think you just said he's not interceding for anyone in hell, but you also said that he died for everyone who is in hell, yes?

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He pays the price for everyone and he prays for those who will believe. There are only a few references to his intercession,

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John 17, Romans 8, and then the Hebrews passage you've been referencing. He prays for those who will believe.

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Where do you get that? Where do you get in Leviticus 16 that the high priest will intercede for those who will believe over against those who do not?

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This is not deriving your theology from the text. You've got your system and you're massaging the text to fit.

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Then, unfortunately, again, we got disrupted, got dragged off. And what did

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I do? I dragged it back. So James may have a theoretical problem with it.

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I just follow the plain meaning of the text, which says that faith precedes regeneration. It's explicit in numerous texts.

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The plain meaning of 1 John 5 says that regeneration precedes faith, if you just look at the grammar. But it's not a matter of following plain meanings.

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It's allowing all of the word to speak. And what we just heard and what I want to keep focusing upon here is what

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Michael is positing is that Jesus does not fulfill the parameters of the high priest.

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Because the high priest had, if a high priest according to the book of Leviticus had offered the sacrifice and then put the bowl down upon the altar and took off his priestly garb and left without going into the holy place to sprinkle the altar, would he have finished his work?

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But Leviticus 16 is explicit. He made atonement for the entire nation. That text works 100 % against you.

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And if someone would not humble themselves, they would be cut off and would not receive the benefits of the atonement that he made.

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So you're going to have to work out how that works. But it's explicit. He made atonement for the whole nation. The scapegoat bears the sins of the nation.

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All the uncleannesses of the nation on the tabernacle, they're all cleansed. But the person who will not humble themselves does not receive the benefit of it.

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I can't let go of this because we haven't heard an answer to it yet, and I'm not trying to be a recalcitrant.

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But you have an answer to Leviticus 16. But could you address that point over again as well? Well, because I disagree.

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I think you're looking at that and you're asking the question, when you're looking at the nation there, who is it?

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The believing nation or the unbelieving nation? The entire nation. Whether believing or unbelieving is not taken into consideration,

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I don't know. It's the entire nation. It's explicit. It's all their rebellions and sins. I think that's totally against even the prophetic message.

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But here's the point. But it's there. It's explicit in the text. If the high priest enters into the holy place, for whom is he interceding?

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Is not the scope of the offering and the intercession identical in the work of the high priest?

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He was to intercede for the entire nation. He also did not have foreknowledge of those who would believe. He made atonement for the entire nation and interceded for the entire nation, asking

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God to forgive. The forgiveness was offered and then it was rejected by the people. You could even argue in the

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Hebrews passage, you keep pressing, that Jesus enters into the holiest place of all and offers intercession for the entire world and offers forgiveness of sins for the entire world.

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And those who receive it are those that benefit from it. If you want to be consistent with the rest of the testimony of Scripture, which

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I'm pressing you on, and honestly, even the verses you say there are answers for, I haven't even heard a hint of anything that would undo all of the passages or Jesus being the savior of the whole world, especially for those who believe.

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Therefore he is able also to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

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So you just said that he's not interceding for people in hell. They're already lost.

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Why would he be interceding for them? Because did Jesus die for them? Yes he did. So again, if the audience is the same, then the death of Christ for those who are in hell was intended by God to never have an intercession or an application.

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I said those who are already in hell he's not praying for, their fate's already sealed. I did not say he didn't make intercession for others.

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I said those who are already in hell. So you have a group of people. I just want to make sure everyone understands. It's literally 30 seconds to make a point.

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So you have a group of people for whom Christ did only part of the work of a high priest. He didn't intercede for them.

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When he said, Father forgive them for they know not what they do, that could be intercession. It's a textual variant actually. It's a very strong textual variant. Let's leave that aside.

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Even so, he shed his blood for every human being, and that's what's explicit, and that's what's in explicit harmony with Leviticus 16, an overwhelming testimony.

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Those who are lost reject that expression of God's love. So there it was. I place it before you and honestly say that I think the person who can just step back, analyze the argument, goes, he's inconsistent at this point.

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On one side he says, well, why would he intercede for someone who's already lost? Well, why would he die for someone who's already lost?

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Same question. And so if he says, well, yes, the high priest had to intercede for all of the people of Israel, and some of them were going to be lost, didn't

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God know that? But, be it as it may, if he's going to say, yes, he intercedes for all of Israel, and the offering is made for all of Israel, then he would have to follow that.

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If Jesus' atonement follows that same pattern, then he dies for everyone and intercedes for everyone.

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But I just don't think he wants to say that Jesus intercedes for people who are going to be lost. But then again, he already is,

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I suppose. If he's interceding for everyone now, you see, this issue of the relationship of atonement and intercession, because they are one aspect of, they are the aspect of the work of Jesus Christ, our

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Amaraldian friends and everybody else, they just don't have a meaningful position on this subject.

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They've got to hold to things that don't fit. Because the explicit, since that's the term that he likes to use, the explicit and consistent teaching of the

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Bible on the subject of the result of the work of Jesus Christ is that it perfects those for whom it's made.

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So you either need to become a universalist, and throw out those parts of the text that talk about the eternal punishment of the wicked, or you have to recognize that there is a specific people in view here.

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And I thought that was rather clearly brought out right before the break, and then the questions from the audience come in, and you end up doing soundbite responses to all sorts of objections, this direction or that direction.

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My frustration at that moment is like, wait a minute, you can move your time a little bit, and this is a climax of the entire debate right here.

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Why would you suddenly drop, you guys got 30 seconds. No, you can't move anything.

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It's totally locked in. Absolutely fixed, huh? It's totally locked in. So, you know, it's like being on Michael's program.

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He's got a time clock, and you do what you've got to do. That's just, any network situation, that's what you'll get in.

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877 -753 -3341, maybe you watched the debates. I want to sneak in here toward the end of the program and have some comments on the exchange.

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That would be fine, 877 -753 -3341. The next evening, we did the healing debate.

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It was very different in tone, for which I was thankful for. I certainly attempted to portray that myself.

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I felt like it was a topic, especially in light of the audience, that needed to be handled with a great deal of pastoral concern.

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You can, I think a discussion of a subject like that, recognizing that there are all sorts of people in physical distress who are watching and listening, you just, it had to be handled the way that it was handled, and I thought it was handled rather well, to be perfectly honest.

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I'm not patting myself on the back here, but I think both Michael and I did a good job in not going ballistic and going for the nuclear option type thing, but keeping the audience in mind.

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The questions were pretty good. We expected, I had expected much more of the here's all my testimonies of healing stuff to predominate, but I think most people recognized that the real question was, well, if one person's healed, why isn't another person healed?

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And of course, my whole theory, my whole presentation was that God is just as free in this area as any others, and that's where Michael and I differ, is

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I have the sovereign decree of God, and he does not, and that's going to have massive impact on how you deal with these particular issues.

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So that's the way that went. I did want to mention that one thing, and I mentioned this on Twitter, and I sort of just passed over it in the article that I wrote yesterday, but I was really bothered.

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I expect all sorts of comments, and there were on Twitter and stuff, but when Steve Hayes over at Triablog, in reviewing that particular debate, that particular discussion, and of course, he's been evidently some type of continuationist, and he's been going after the

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Strange Fire folks for quite some time. In his review, he rather casually commented that evidently

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I had not studied Brown's position, and I was just like, so easy to sit behind a microphone and snipe at people, especially when you don't do that kind of stuff yourself.

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Very easy. And that bugged me like I don't know what, because here

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I am. We took on this responsibility. I had already begun prep for the trip to Kiev and teaching church history and had all sorts of stuff on my list that I wanted to get to before that, and I had to put all that aside for a period of weeks.

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And in that process, not only got through from having to came to Saathur and other works on Amaraldianism and related atonement issues, but I also took the time, and Michael will confirm this, by the way, to read

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Authentic Fire, Michael's response to Strange Fire. I read Hypergrace, which was interesting, though I was unaware that it's primarily a charismatic thing.

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It's very similar to our anti -lordship stuff, very same roots, but in a charismatic context.

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But I read his book Hypergrace. So those are his two most recent books, and they're tangentially anyways related to the subject of healing.

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Certainly Authentic Fire would be much more directly. And then, years ago,

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Michael had sent me his book that he had written sometime in the 1990s, Israel's Divine Healer, which is not his doctoral dissertation, where his dissertation was on the

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Hebrew word rafah, for healing, but that is dissertation plus further reading that he had done on the subject of healing in the

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Old Testament. And since that was pre -Kindle, he will tell you, he provided me with the

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PDF of it, so that I could get to the specific sections that would be directly relevant, which was all the introductory material, the material on the

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Torah, on the poetic books, and on the New Testament and the conclusions.

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And that is his in -depth stuff, and that was many hours of material on that subject.

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And I also listened to about a two -hour long sermon, that even Michael didn't remember, delivered at Brownsville, on Is Healing for Today.

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Someone, I believe, I think it was in Twitter, maybe email, don't remember the direction where stuff is thrown at me, but someone was kind enough to link me to that.

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And even Michael said, I don't remember that one, you might want to stick with Israel's divine healer, but they were consistent at that point.

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So I'm not sure how many hours that added up to, but I did due diligence to understand his position.

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Evidently, Mr. Hayes was confused. Confused by the fact that I raised the issue more than once that Michael's position is far more nuanced than what you will find, not only from the

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WordFaith folks, but from most Charismatics, who have embraced the idea that divine healing is always

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God's will, and that to say, if God wills, is to actually destroy the act of faith.

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And given the audience that we had, I had to raise that issue.

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I had to, and at one point said, it seems that everyone on the panel is saying these things.

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Now, he actually came back and walked back one of those statements about one step. He wanted to, you know, and that's certainly up to him to do.

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But to say I had not studied his position is just insulting and absurd.

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And I had, and attempted to accurately represent it and interact with it during that period of time.

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And I think the fact that he knew where I was coming from and I knew where he was coming from is what allowed it to be as fruitful and as non -rancorous as such a discussion can be, especially in light of the fact that you're inviting the audience to participate.

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So, you know, I would love to see some of these critics actually put in the position

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I'm in. And when they actually get the opportunity of doing that, it's amazing in the future that they generally tend to be considerably kinder and a little more fair in their criticisms.

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It's when they've not been there that they seem to know exactly what I should have said and exactly how

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I should have said it. And there's something about walking a mile in moccasins or something along those lines that people might want to keep in mind.

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877 -753 -3341. 877 -753 -3341.

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Michael had tweeted, The DL shows speak for themselves. I read John 6 in the context of John 1 through 6.

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Calvinism vanishes quickly. Well, actually just the opposite is the case, especially when you look at some of the sections in 5, 8, 10, 17.

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And that still is not a response to the reality. John 6, 37 makes it very clear.

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All that the Father gives me will come to me. That is a pre -existing condition to the action of the verb.

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It is the giving of the Father that results in the coming of the individual. And all of those that are thusly given come.

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It is the free act of God. And to say that, well, that's based upon foreknowledge of who's going to believe.

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Well, what is coming? It's believing. That's what the whole point is.

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He's explaining the unbelief. And that never entered into Michael's attempt to deflect

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John 6. He didn't deal with the reality that Jesus is explaining the unbelief of the

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Jews. Even though they've rowed across the lake and they are seeking him, Jesus knows their hearts.

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And he says, you are not believing in me. And it is in the context of explaining their unbelief that he says, all the

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Father gives me will come to me. And that coming is the result of the

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Father's sovereign giving. And that's the only other way to explain what then follows in the next sentence. I've come down from heaven not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me.

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What's the will of him who sent me? That of all that he has given me, I lose none of them, but raise them up in the last day.

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So the only way to get around this is to turn the entire text backwards into a situation where what

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Jesus is really saying is that God responds to man rather than what the real issue is.

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And that is he's explaining the unbelief of the men, and it comes from the fact that God is the one who has to give.

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877 -753 -3341. What, are you testing to make sure that the software is actually?

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That's true, that's true. You've been changing a lot of stuff. So I guess you're just testing, making sure that that's open.

54:33

Now Michael just tweeted, I find it fascinating that Calvinists retweet other Calvinist comments as if the tweet proved the point.

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Hardly. Michael, that goes both ways. I can't tell you how many times I've seen

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Arminians and Charismatics just retweet somebody else's tweet as if that somehow proved the point.

54:50

That's just the nature of Twitter. What? I didn't see anything. No, well, unfortunately, when

54:57

I'm looking at that channel, it's, you never understand until you ride 100 miles in another man's spandex.

55:06

Okay, that's just inappropriate. That is completely inappropriate. And let's see, control and press purge 60.

55:17

All right, there we go. We just sent the author of that statement into press purgatory where he will suffer for his statement for 60 seconds and then we'll come back into channel and be sanctified from ever making that kind of statement again because it's sort of like buying used cycling shorts on eBay.

55:41

It's just not right. It's just, no, no, you don't do that. I don't care how many times you wash them.

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It does not matter that, no, no. You buy them new and then you burn them or something.

55:54

That's just how it works. So anyways, I guess nobody wants to discuss the programs.

56:00

I guess I have absolutely covered everything that there is to cover about the atonement and divine healing.

56:07

Actually, Josh Elson asked me a question and I really, I didn't get a chance to get back to him. I'm not sure if it was this morning or yesterday.

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He asked me on Twitter, something about would you be open to, something about other gifts or something along those lines.

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And I thought I was fairly straightforward in my presentation in explaining the fact that, there it is.

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There it is. I thought it was there. Helpful, created order, sickness.

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I thought it was there. Maybe it's been pulled or something. No, no, there it is.

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Oh, there it is. Okay. Asked a question that went unanswered and you, are you open to the manifestation of signs?

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What signs? The apostolic signs? No, because there are no apostles.

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What are the signs? The apostolic sign gifts have ceased.

57:17

I made that pretty clear. And point out that we see, one of my problems with a lot of charismatic interpretation of the

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New Testament is, you fail to recognize that it was written during the apostolic period. And hence you assume that the apostolic period remains normative after the apostles are gone.

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But the apostles were a gift to the church and they had a function. We are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets,

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Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone. And it gets really messy when you keep laying the foundation over and over and over and over and over again.

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The church is to be, there's to be a structure. You build up on it. And, you know, this is interesting because this comes up.

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Who do we talk to about that all the time? The Mormons. Not only do they have their apostles, but you've got to have those apostles.

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You've got to have that there. It's like, no, their teaching has been delivered to us. The once for all delivered to the saints faith.

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The apostles succeeded by God's grace in doing what they're supposed to do. So are we talking about sign gifts that demonstrate apostleship?

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Then I would say no, obviously. What are the signs that we're talking about? Signs of what? Presence of the

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Spirit? Obviously I believe the Spirit's active in the church. And gives discernment and enlightenment and everything else, but not revelation and not signs of apostleship.

58:38

So anyways, thanks for listening to Dividing Line today. We will be back,

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Lord willing, at our regular time. I'm going to be on Janet Mefford later on today, by the way. And then on Waseco Woods on Thursday too.

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So I'm sort of making the rounds this week for some reason. But we'll be back on Thursday.

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Should be our normal time. We'll see. And if not, keep an eye on that blog. Keep an eye on that Twitter feed as well.