Christian Pastor vs. Pro-Ab0rtion Dog Walker

Apologia Utah

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:00

Making a movie here or something? No, just filming for safety, protection, a witness.

00:06

You're the ones that need the safety, huh? Uh, yeah, he's actually been attacked out here. Oh yeah? Yeah. So you think this is a

00:13

Christian thing you're doing? Saving babies, yeah. This is less Christian than they are to see.

00:18

Do you want to come talk to me about it, man? I'd love to talk to you about it. Okay. Yeah, come talk to me. I can have a dialogue with you about it.

00:24

Yeah, go ahead. Tell me what you think, uh... Well, I'm Andrew, by the way. I'm a pastor of a church in South Shore.

00:29

That's sad. That I'm a pastor? No, it's sad that as a pastor you're out here doing this. Tell me why.

00:36

How would you feel if on Sunday they came to your church and promoted what their belief system is to your congregation?

00:43

Yeah, we've actually had that happen multiple times. And how did you like that? We actually had dialogues with them and talked with them about it to show them the folly of their worldview.

00:51

Uh -huh. And you're the ultimate authority on God? No, the scriptures are the ultimate authority.

00:56

Okay, and you're the one that interprets the scriptures absolutely correctly. You're convinced of that?

01:01

Well, I believe when God spoke through men as they wrote the scriptures, that he spoke in a way that is clear and understandable, right?

01:09

So if there's ever an issue on interpretation, what we can do is go back to the original language, at least that they were written in, so we can try to figure out any problems with interpretations or anything like that.

01:19

But I think God spoke clearly. I don't think there's a very good consensus on how God spoke clearly. So what do you believe exactly then, sir?

01:26

In terms of God or morality? Well, I believe that we are sovereign beings, and that we answer to God, okay?

01:36

And that anything that we do is not necessarily your problem. That's my problem with God, okay?

01:44

And you're not my authority. Your patriarchy here is not establishing anything.

01:50

This here is intimidation. It's nothing other than intimidation. What do you think is happening inside there?

01:55

Well, what do you think is happening at schools where kids are shot to death? Are you guys out protesting about the living children that are being killed?

02:05

So let's start in one basic premise, all right? So inside the womb, what is it, sir?

02:12

Well, I don't know, and neither do you. You don't know what's inside the womb? Neither do you. You don't know when that spirit enters that body.

02:20

That's your speculation. Well, this is what we know, sir. So what we know is that when a sperm— Don't say we know.

02:25

No, no, no, listen. You haven't let me finish, right? So when a sperm and an egg meet, right, we have the

02:31

DNA from the mother, the DNA from the father. They meet, and fertilization occurs. When that happens, we do know for a scientific fact that genetically it's a different human being than—

02:41

It's a body. It's alive. It's a body. But it's also alive. Okay, it's a body. It's a human being with a different genetic makeup than the mother and the father, which is alive, which is multiplying and growing, all right?

02:52

And is it human, or is it not? That's the question. Sure, that's a good question. It's human.

02:58

Based on what? Your feeling? Of the mother and the father both being humans, creating a human life in the womb.

03:04

So you know when that spirit enters that body. I'm not talking even about the spirit, sir. Well, that's important. Do you believe that we exist as spirit beings before we're here?

03:12

No, I'm not Mormon. That's not a Mormon concept. I'm not

03:17

Mormon either. That's not a Mormon concept. It's definitely not a biblical concept. Sure it is. I knew you before you were born,

03:23

Jeremiah. What kind of thing is that? Yeah, God has the foreknowledge of all things, Isaiah chapter 60 verse 8.

03:30

He has declared the end from the beginning. So that's your interpretation of that. No, I just quoted the scripture to you. And I quoted the scripture that said he knew who he was beforehand, and now you're making an interpretation of that.

03:39

But what we're talking about with Jeremiah is we're talking about a prophet of God who's telling me he has a very specific reason for existence in the context.

03:47

Yeah, it's not saying that you were alive in a spirit world before you were born. That didn't make any sense at all, what you just said.

03:54

Why not? Because you're now setting up Jeremiah as more special as the rest of us because he had a very specific mission here.

04:02

So that situation's different. I'm no less significant to God than Jeremiah was. Right, sir.

04:07

Well, the point that I'm making is the scriptures don't say that before you were born, you were in a spirit existence.

04:13

That's not what it says. Well, that's your opinion. Well, you quoted the scripture to me, and it doesn't say that. Well, you took the scripture and created your opinion of it.

04:23

Okay. Okay? I have a different opinion of it. Are you LDS by any chance? No, I'm not. Okay, so help me understand, then, where you're coming from.

04:33

You said you're a sovereign being and that we answer to God. Yes. So what exactly does that mean?

04:39

Do you have your own religion, your own God that you've created and worshipped? Do you worship anywhere on Sunday?

04:44

What do you do? I have. I don't right now. Because religion, to me, because of what I'm seeing here, is a complete turn -off to me.

04:52

Okay. A complete turn -off. Okay. Okay? Yeah. And, you know, the people, my wife passed away two months ago.

04:59

I got a message from a good friend yesterday that was parroting God's words. He used that as an opportunity because he thinks it's his proselyting supersedes anything else.

05:14

Okay? Help me understand what you mean by that, then. See if I can pull it up.

05:20

Yeah, please do. Sounds like you've been through a lot in the last couple months. Well, I've been through a lot in my life.

05:26

Everybody is. That's not the point. Let's see if I can find it here. And he was being genuine.

05:35

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But he was being like you in his genuineness. He was missing the point, okay? And the point was to comfort me, not to proselyte to me, okay?

05:44

Because what I did is I quoted something, and he says that's not how

05:52

I feel about it. It was even more forceful than that. But what I quoted was, you know, we all die twice.

05:59

The first time we die is when our bodies give out. The second time we die is when our stories stop being told.

06:09

Okay. And he said that's too negative for him. That's not how he views it. Okay. And then he started telling me about the resurrection and everything else.

06:18

I know about that. I didn't need to know about that. Okay. So first of all, he's dismissing my comment.

06:25

And then he's using that opportunity, instead of having compassion for me and comforting me, to parrot scripture that he feels is so significant that I need to know about it in the moment.

06:38

Okay. I know about Christ. I know about God. Okay. I don't need to have that told to me by somebody that thinks they know it better than me.

06:47

Right. Okay. Do you believe in Jesus? Sure. Okay. What do you believe specifically about him in his being, then, like in his deity?

06:55

Well, I believe that he was literally the son of God. Okay. That he came here to save the world.

07:02

Okay. That he did it through compassion and love, and that he was very tolerant of a lot of things.

07:09

The things that he wasn't tolerant of were people that weaponized religion. Whether it was the

07:15

Sadducees, whether it was the Pharisees, he didn't go after people like this. He went after religious zealots that thought they had the answers and were representing him.

07:25

And they weren't representing him. Do you remember what he always condemned the Pharisees with when he told them? Yeah. What did he say to them most of the time?

07:31

Well, what he said is, you're all rotten, stinking bones inside, you're whitewashed outside.

07:37

Matthew 23, right there. Yeah. So that's what he condemned them of. Well, he always told them that you're forsaking the law of God for the sake of your tradition.

07:44

And he always actually spoke to them, and he said, have you not read what was written? Right? So he went back to the previous words that he had given

07:54

Moses, even on Sinai. Okay. It was the pre -incarnate Christ who spoke with Moses and gave him the law. Okay, so where do they differ?

08:00

Where do they differ? Yeah. The Pharisees had multiple traditions that they had been creating throughout the time of the intertestamental period that weren't actually in the law of God.

08:09

And they were holding people to a standard that God didn't actually reveal in his law. So what I would recommend, at least when

08:16

I speak of Jesus, is I want you to know Jesus, right? You said you believe he's the literal offspring of God.

08:22

So do you believe... I know him. Help me understand if I'm wrong. Do you believe that Heavenly Father, and there was a

08:29

Heavenly Mother, and they procreated and created Christ? Is that what you mean by the literal Son of God? I don't know.

08:35

Okay. I don't know. Did you grow up in the LDS organization? I only ask because of the context in which we're at. We're in Utah. Yeah, you're trying to think that this is who

08:43

I'm representing. That's what I'm asking. And I told you already my answer to that. You said literal

08:48

Son of God. I'm asking for clarification, that's all. What part of that is confusing when

08:55

I say literal part of Son of God? Well, in the context in which we live, the LDS organization believes that Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother had spiritual intercourse, and literally he was born from Heavenly Mother.

09:07

Who cares how it came to be? He's literal Son of God. I don't know how it came to be. I don't think you were there either, and I don't think there's anything in the scripture that tells you how that came to be.

09:16

Oh yeah, John chapter 1, man. You're going like immaculate conception? No, no, no, no.

09:22

I'm not Roman Catholic or anything like that. So go ahead, enlighten me. Yeah, yeah. So John chapter 1, it says,

09:28

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. It says, All things were created through Him, and there was nothing that came into being unless it was created through Christ.

09:36

So I believe that Jesus Christ, according to John, his disciple who recorded this,

09:43

He's always been God, eternally been God, never created, the creator of all things.

09:49

So he's the Son of God, okay? And so Christ is praying to His Father, He's praying to Himself.

09:59

Right, so Christ, what the scriptures tell us, like in Colossians chapter 2, it says, In Him the fullness of deity dwelt bodily.

10:07

So what Christians believe, at least Orthodox Christians, is that Jesus Christ took on flesh, right?

10:14

Philippians chapter 2. So He was the eternal God. Just listen, there's something called the hypostatic union where He was fully

10:20

God and fully man. In His humanity, yes, He prays to the Father, but it doesn't mean

10:26

He's praying to Himself. Because Christians believe there's one... So this is another semantics about, you know, it just doesn't make sense.

10:34

What you're saying doesn't make sense, and you're finding a really convoluted way to try and explain it away. Not necessarily.

10:40

What we believe is that there's one being of God that exists in three persons. The Father, Son, and the

10:46

Holy Spirit. I get it. But you're getting situations that you can't explain, and then trying to find a way to validate them in your own mind.

10:55

But essentially what we're getting away from here is what we started out with. This is inappropriate.

11:01

Well, that's the premise, right? And the reason why you think it's inappropriate is because you actually worship a different God, not the

11:07

God of the Bible. I worship a different God than you worship. Absolutely. You worship a false God. No, stop there.

11:13

Because now, I'm not as rude to say that to you as you are to say that to me.

11:19

Well, you came up telling me that I'm wrong for doing this, did you not? Oh, yeah. I did. So, using your own standard, that doesn't really make sense.

11:26

That would be whether you were a Christian, whether you were an agnostic, whether you're an atheist.

11:32

I wasn't putting it on to you as a Christian, I was putting it on to you as a human being. You're coming back to me and saying that my

11:39

God is false because it doesn't make sense to you. And because it's different than your

11:45

God. That's outrageous. No, it's not that it doesn't make sense. God says, those who hate me love death. And what you're standing in front of today is a death camp.

11:53

This is a death camp. Human beings are being slaughtered in the womb. So, let them answer to God. Let them answer to God.

12:00

Okay, do you think murder should be illegal? Well, yeah, of course. But this is not a question, this is something that's, you know, there's a law, there's a court.

12:08

Take it through them. When you murder somebody that's actually on this plant, that's not in the womb, you answer to the authorities.

12:16

This is a different situation. So, why does the womb for you then, sir, change the fact that they're human?

12:23

That's the question, right? I already told you. Because you don't know when the spirit enters the body? Exactly. And nor do you.

12:29

Other than what you've convinced yourself of. No, sir. Regardless of when the soul enters the body. It's a human being upon conception which is alive and living and multiplying.

12:39

Right? So, if you think murder should be outlawed, that's why I'm here today, sir. And are you this passionate about other things?

12:47

Absolutely. Are you as passionate about kids that are shot in schools? Do you go and work against the gun lobbies?

12:54

Do you do those things? Well, here's the issue. You're skirting around the fact that over 60 million babies have been murdered in the womb since 1973 in which we can count.

13:04

In the United States of America. I'm telling you... This is a big issue. This is a new issue. It's not a new issue. Oh, yes it is.

13:10

Because back in the 1700s and 1800s, abortions were happening all the time. The ecclesiastical authorities had no problem with it.

13:16

It was something that then all of a sudden came into being because there were some people that felt that they had the truth and the answers.

13:23

And they wanted to spread it out. This was not something that was a problem back in the 1700s. Read up on your history.

13:30

Read up on the 1800s and 1700s. And you'll find that this was an ongoing thing that the ecclesiastical authorities had no problem with.

13:38

I'll give you the fact that I do think this has been going on for thousands of years. Like it's recorded in Deuteronomy 18.

13:44

It says that there's those who sacrifice their children, right? It's a mullet. Okay. And stop it.

13:50

Now again, you're transposing things that aren't—they're talking about living out of the womb children.

13:58

And now you're taking that back into what you believe. They weren't talking about children that weren't born yet.

14:05

But you're doing it again though, sir. This is a human being that's alive in the womb. You're taking a scripture that actually doesn't support your position and then perverting it to make it support your position.

14:16

Okay, here's one. In Exodus, there's a case law for when a woman who is pregnant gets striked in the belly, right?

14:22

If there's two men that are fighting and there's a pregnant woman nearby and she gets striked in the belly, if that baby dies in the womb, it's case law from Exodus.

14:29

It says life for life. That the person is to die because a human being died in the womb. That's God's law. Do we know who died there?

14:35

It's case law. It says if this were to happen, this is the outcome.

14:41

Because God actually values life in the womb more than you do, sir. Okay. That's the problem. Yeah, okay.

14:46

That's your opinion. It's not my opinion. That's a case law from Exodus. Okay. But the thing is, you are sitting here trying to intimidate people.

14:54

No, sir. This is intimidation. Okay. If I walk around with an automatic rifle in a protest,

15:02

I'm trying to intimidate people. A camera is an automatic rifle, sir? Well, it is. It's trying to act like, you know, you are under threat that you're not under threat.

15:08

That's absolutely false. You are the ones that are threatening them. Okay. We threatened him, sir.

15:14

And now his baby is alive because we are out here today. You threatened him? No. I'm being facetious in a sense.

15:21

Look, this family with that baby is alive today because we are out here. That's his choice. Great. Great.

15:28

Get rid of the cameras. Act civil. Act with humanity. Sir. Don't act with intimidation.

15:33

No, sir. I don't have a problem with you being out here. But when I see that, that tells me who you are.

15:39

And it tells me that you're an intimidator. You're a bully. That's who you are. Take that off.

15:44

Be a man. Be a man. Sir, it is for protection because we have people who do attack us.

15:50

Stop. Oh, those women look like they were really freaking scary. You can talk to him. He's been attacked, sir, by men.

15:56

Oh, where are they? The camera was the only thing that kept me from going to jail because I was able to prove by a camera that it...

16:04

I'm just trying to understand where... You're here to intimidate people. That's the bottom line. See, truth doesn't matter to you.

16:10

It doesn't matter. You just said that. See, that is insulting. Well, it's...

16:15

That's insulting. You just told me that the camera that I use... I have a different opinion than you. And you're willing to insult me to say that truth is important to me?

16:23

Wait a minute. That truth that I just told you... Wait, wait. Truth's not important to you, sir. Because you don't like hearing what

16:29

I have to say. That's insulting. And I don't act that way to people because that's insulting. That's unpriced life.

16:36

You just told me... Where do you get all these morals from, sir? That's what I'm trying to understand. You don't believe in the God of the Bible.

16:41

Where do I get morals from? Yeah, where do they come from? By my life's experiences. By loving human beings.

16:47

Is it love to murder children in the womb? Listen. That's your opinion. No, sir. It's a fact.

16:52

No, it's not a fact. That's your opinion that now you are transposing or you are projecting onto something else.

16:58

This is the issue that I see, sir. When we believe that morality is purely an opinion... Listen. We become relative in our morality.

17:05

Listen to this. Hitler did the same thing in the Holocaust. He said, they're not humans. They're Jews. Just listen. You haven't let me finish.

17:11

They're not Jews. They're humans. They're not humans. They're Jews. We can go ahead and kill them. Sir, you've done the same thing with human beings that are in the womb.

17:17

They're not humans anymore. They're in the womb. My grandfather was in prison in Germany because he wouldn't join the Nazi party. I'm talking about you, sir, not your grandfather.

17:24

Well, I'm an extension of my grandfather. Sir, you believe the very same premises... No. ...that

17:30

Nazi Germany does by dehumanizing people that are in the womb. Well, let me make a point here.

17:36

And I don't know if this applies to you. Okay. But it applies generally to the Christian community, especially the nationalist

17:41

Christian community. Okay. And you're not going to like hearing this because I don't know if you're part of it. Well...

17:46

But if you're part of it... Morality is relative to you anyway, sir. So it doesn't matter. So it's really... Well, that's... So are you going...

17:52

Are you going to the Christian community, the national Christian community, that are supporting a sexual predator, a domestic terrorist, an insurrectionist, a seditionist...

18:01

Who are you talking about? Really? Yeah. Who do you think I'm talking about? I have no clue. Really? Yeah.

18:07

Wow. Then you really are, you know, not tuned in. I don't know who you're talking about.

18:14

You've got to tell me who you're talking about. Wow. Wow. A sexual predator, a domestic terrorist, okay?

18:22

Someone who orchestrates a coup to overthrow our country, okay? A seditionist, a subversive, a blatantly habitual pathological liar.

18:33

Is any of this starting to get to you? Well, I'm trying to understand why you think those things matter ultimately in the first place.

18:40

Wow. We were just talking about morality and how important it was. Yeah, but why do you say those things are wrong if morality is opinion?

18:48

Where do they ultimately objectively become wrong? So do you support... Would you support, encourage, endorse, and vote for somebody who's a sexual predator, who's a domestic terrorist, who orchestrates a coup to overthrow the country, who's a blatantly habitual pathological liar?

19:03

Because your community, your Christian community, by and large supports that.

19:09

And then you're going to preach to me about morality? Really? I'm just trying to figure out where you get objective morality from.

19:17

It's not objective morality. Is there an objective truth that transcends human experience?

19:24

Sure. Okay. How do you know that? Because I've experienced it. So you know it by your experience.

19:30

I know what's humanizing and what's dehumanizing, okay? This qualifies as dehumanizing.

19:37

This is never anything that Christ would do. It would never even be on his radar. He says to stop it in his own law.

19:43

Stop it. Rescue those who are unjustly sentenced to die. Do not sacrifice your children. So you're saying this is something that he would do?

19:51

110%. Wow. I'm filled with the Holy Spirit, sir. The Holy Spirit brings me here. See, I can say, you know,

19:57

I'm going to stoop to your level now and say you think that, okay? Because you're attacking me personally by saying, you know, the things that he said, the things that you said, okay?

20:08

That's a personal attack. Well, the Bible tells me to judge with righteous judgment, sir. And the fruits of what you're speaking are evidence that you don't know

20:16

God. But I want you to know him. I want you to have peace with God. I do. I do. I do. I represent

20:22

God. You represent God. Yes, sir. You're the standard for morality. Well, when

20:27

I said that to you, you were like, yeah, I'm a pastor. What is it that makes you? I didn't say I was the standard. I said the scriptures are the sole and tolerable rule of faith in practice.

20:34

So much. That's what I go by. You go by the scriptures? Sure. Okay. You go by the scriptures too.

20:41

Yes, 100%. But when I go by the scriptures, then I'm the person. When you go by the scriptures, then you're representing

20:47

God. When I say I'm representing God, you find that outrageous. I'm trying to figure out what.

20:52

So you agree, then, that the Bible, the Old and New Testament, is the infallible word of God.

20:59

The sole rule of faith in practice. So you would be subservient and listen to what the scriptures say. That's somewhat ignorant.

21:05

How many pans have those scriptures passed through? How many translations have those scriptures passed through? Tell me what you think in terms of translations.

21:13

How does that work? Well, my opinion is that there are things in there.

21:18

Like, one of them is, be thou therefore perfect. Well, that's a translation that, when you go back, means, be ye therefore mature.

21:31

Okay? That's the true translation of it. It causes people a lot of discord in their lives.

21:38

For sure. Because they think, you know, how can I ever achieve this? Right, right, right. We can't be perfect.

21:43

We're human beings. We're failures. Right. But that's in the scriptures. That's in most of the translations.

21:49

Okay? It's inaccurate. And it causes people a lot of stress and anxiety. Well, I was trying to figure out, how do you think that the

21:56

Bible is translated, if that's a better question? Well, I think, originally, it was people who had personal contact with Christ.

22:05

And then they wrote those things down. And then someone else, it's just like the grapevine. If I tell you something, by the time it gets to the 20th person down the line, it sometimes doesn't even resemble what

22:15

I say. Right. Okay? So when you're looking at scripture, you have to look at it through that lens. You have to say, you know what?

22:22

These are people that, whether it was Constantine or whoever in the process, had agendas, had designs, that they used the scriptures.

22:31

They weaponized the scriptures to a degree. No. If you actually look at history with the transmission of the text.

22:38

I was supposed to meet someone in 15 minutes. I appreciate your time. So I gotta get going. Come on, Zach. Let's go. Well, just know that Jesus Christ is fully

22:44

God. He took on flesh and died the death that we deserve on the cross. I know the same thing that the guy that was trying to comfort me, because my wife did.

22:53

It's inappropriate. Comfort me. Don't parrot scripture. I don't need it. I understand it.

22:59

I can parrot scripture back to you, too. I find it offensive. I wouldn't do that to you. I am going to share myself with you, not parrot what someone else said, to try and convince you of something.

23:11

Give me your own words. I'm not interested in the other words. Sir, the Bible says that the gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing.

23:18

It smells like death. I was just trying to give you the gospel, sir. You need to have peace with God. Jesus Christ shed his blood, and through faith in him alone, you can be justified today, declared righteous.

23:28

Right before the Father. You have a wonderful day, sir.