October 17, 2019 Show with Stephen Hamilton on “Challenging the Claim of Celibate Homosexual Christianity” PLUS Brad K. Gsell on “God Is Love: The Most Misunderstood, Misused, Twisted & Falsified Truth in Religion”

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carwile, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions, and now here's your host,

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Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth.

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We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 17th day of October 2019, and today we have both a first -time guest and a returning guest to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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For the first hour we have, for the very first time on this program, Stephen Hamilton, who is a conference speaker and pastor of Lehigh Valley Free Presbyterian Church in Allentown, Pennsylvania, and he's going to be addressing

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Challenging the Claim of Celibate Homosexual Christianity, and then coming up in the second hour we will be joined by Brad Zell, author of The Legacy of Billy Graham, The Accommodation of Truth to Error in the

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Evangelical Church, and he is going to be addressing the theme, God is Love, the

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Most Misunderstood, Misused, Twisted and Falsified Truth in Religion. We're also going to be talking about the 78th

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Annual Convention of the American Council of Christian Churches, held right here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, at Faith Chapel next week, where both of my guests will be speaking.

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But first of all, it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Stephen Hamilton.

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Thank you, Chris, it's good to be with you this afternoon. And if you could,

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Pastor Hamilton, as we typically do, give our listeners a brief description of the

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Lehigh Valley Free Presbyterian Church in Allentown, Pennsylvania. Well, our church, which is actually located north of Allentown, a little town called

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Walnut Court, is a conservative, evangelical, reformed,

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I would even say fundamental church. We're part of a wider denomination called the

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Free Presbyterian Church of North America. As you can probably tell by my accent,

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I'm not a native of this country, though I've lived here now for almost 21 years. I grew up in Northern Ireland, and I was part of the

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Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster, well known and probably best known for its longstanding moderator,

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Dr. N .R .K. Paisley. So our church is a Bible -believing,

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Gospel -preaching church. Yes, I have known of your denomination for a long time.

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In fact, a friend of mine who was pastoring at one time for a number of years in Malvern, Pennsylvania, who is now back in Ulster, Northern Ireland, at the

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Ballymena Free Presbyterian Church, John Greer, not only a friend but also a former client, he had a radio program on a station where I worked for 15 years, and he also was a part of a program that I created called

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The Voice of Sovereign Grace, which featured different ministers from different churches.

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And John, on top of that, preached at a major conference at the church where I was once a member,

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Grace Reform Baptist Church of Long Island, located in Merrick, New York. Very soon after that church came into being, after a merger between two

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Reform Baptist churches, John spoke at one of our first conferences that we had there.

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And it has always been a blessing, not only knowing him and sharing fellowship with him, but hearing him preach.

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He is one of the most powerful preachers I've ever heard, and I miss him being here in the

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United States when I had easier access to him. Right. Well, I know John particularly well.

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We are good friends. Under God, the Lord used John Greer in my coming to this country.

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Our church is actually a church plant of his congregation in Malvern.

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Prior to that, when John was in Northern Ireland and I was in Northern Ireland, he was pastor of a congregation in County Tyrone in Six Mile Cross.

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He was, for a while, though he's not that much older than me, he was my Greek professor in our theological hall.

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And then when he moved to the United States, I visited him and his family probably about seven times over the years, until eventually the

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Lord used him and the opportunity was created through his ministry, actually on the radio in this area in Lehigh Valley, to have me to move across.

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The Lord used that in getting me here, and so about a year after I came, the

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Lord called him back to Northern Ireland, which was particularly painful for me, being so close, about 60 miles away.

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I was so looking forward to the ongoing fellowship that we would have, but it wasn't to be.

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But we're still friends, we're still in touch, maybe not as much as we were, but we're still very much in touch and aware of what's going on in each other's work.

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Praise God. And if you could, we have a tradition here on Iron Trip and Zion Radio, where first -time guests give a summary of their own salvation testimony, including the religious atmosphere in which they were born and raised, if any, and how the

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Sovereign Lord raised up providential circumstances in your life that drew you to himself and saved you.

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Well, I have a testimony that may be very common with others who were converted in a similar set of circumstances.

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I came to know Christ as a child. I know that there are many who have professed salvation in childhood who have subsequently discovered that their profession was not genuine.

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However, many who've been converted in childhood have gone on with the Lord and have proved over the course of time that their conversion was indeed real.

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I would be one of those. I was brought up in a Christian home. My parents were converted just a very few years before I was born, and my dad and my mother were very active church members in a church that I later went on to pastor.

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Very strange account in itself. The Mount Marian Free Priest Church in Belfast, just a few miles from the

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Martyrs' Memorial Church. It was planted in one of the first planted churches in 1951.

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My parents came into the church in 1958, I believe it was, and then

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I was born in 1959. I was brought up in that congregation.

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Not only was I taught the Word of God at home, we had family devotions. We had children's meetings that I attended several nights per week.

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I was in church all day on the Lord's Day. Sunday morning Sunday school, Sunday morning church,

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Sunday afternoon Sunday school, Sunday evening church. So, to say that I was cradled in the

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Gospel would be an understatement. It was really, really part of the warp and woof of our whole existence and our lives.

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But I was always taught from the earliest time that I needed to have a personal experience of God's salvation, that I could not get to heaven because of my parents, because of what the

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Lord had done in their lives, or even in the lives of my elders, siblings, my sisters who professed faith.

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I must come to know Christ personally. It was as a child that I did seek the

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Lord, and I know that through the years there have been many times when I have doubted that and have gone back again to, if you like, seek the

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Lord afresh. And if I wasn't saved that time, that I wanted to now be saved, and I think that's a common experience that young people converted in childhood have, because obviously in many cases such as mine, there's no remembrance, actually, of the time or the date.

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There's no real, sharp memory of coming to Christ.

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However, I learned through the years, and I still believe this, that there must just be a time when you come to Christ.

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There must be a moment of regeneration. There must be a time when we seek the Lord. However, what am

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I trusting in right now? By the way, Pastor Steven, you're really starting to break up and cutting out, or I don't know if you're moving your face away from the mouthpiece of the phone, or...

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Okay. I'm not sure what's going on. It could be the connection here. I'm not sure. It's kind of windy today in Pennsylvania.

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Anyway, as I was saying there, I hope you got most of that. I believe that those who often doubt their salvation because of the fact that they were so young when they came to the

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Lord must come to the place that I was brought to, to ask the question of yourself, what am

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I trusting in to get me to heaven? If I were to stand, and I know this is a kind of a fairytale type of way of looking at heaven.

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People talk about going to heaven, being asked a question, usually it's by St. Peter. I don't believe any of that, of course, but if someone were to ask me at heaven, why should you gain entrance to heaven?

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My simple answer would be, Jesus Christ died for me. I'm trusting in the finished work of Christ and in the blood -tongue of Christ.

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When he took my sins and my sorrows and he made them his very own, and he bore that burden to Calvary where he suffered and died alone to go to him.

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That's my testimony. I've had many periods in my life, in my adult life, when

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I've thought, I wonder, did I get saved when I was, say, six years old?

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I wonder if I really was saved when I was ten years old, or was it that time when I was eleven or twelve when

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I was convicted of sin? As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter.

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It certainly is something that's known to God, but even if it's not known to me, I'm not trusting in a prayer that I prayed,

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I'm not trusting in a decision that I made, I'm not trusting in this or that circumstance. I'm trusting in the finished work of the

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Lord Jesus Christ, and he is all my hope, and he is all my trust. And so that's my simple testimony, and I thank the

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Lord for his hand upon my life, and I have a desire to serve him, I've had that for many, many years, and I'm glad to be a

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Christian. Praise God. By the way, I don't know if you are using a speakerphone or something, but for some reason the connection is not that good as it was when you first greeted me before we went on the air.

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I'm not sure what happened. Okay. Well, I haven't touched anything, I haven't done anything, so I really can't answer that.

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Okay. Well, we'll just have to pray that the Lord improves the connection that we have.

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Well, one thing that I failed to mention that might be an area of interest or surprise to our listeners is that I happen to know that the

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Free Presbyterian Church of North America and its mother church, the Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster, are one of the few, if not the only, that I am aware of,

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Presbyterian denominations that allows ministers to be either baptistic in their understanding of the ordinance of baptism, credo -baptism as it's sometimes called, or believer -only baptism by immersion, or pedo -baptists, and that the word

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Presbyterian in the name of the Free Presbyterian Church of North America is mainly in regard, or even exclusively in regard, to the church polity.

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It does not involve the ordinances which you are permitted to have both types of ministers in your congregations.

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Am I right? That's correct, yes. That has been the policy that was in place from the very beginning of the denomination on March 17th, 1951 in Northern Ireland, to carry over here into the

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Gawr denomination, which now is separate, but joined, to coin a phrase, it's a separate denomination in that we have our own presbytery and so on, but we have full fraternal relations with the mother church.

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But that policy, while it seems novel to many, and we've been criticized from both ends of the spectrum, if you like, because of it, many

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Baptists really are not happy with the fact that we could have among us pedo -baptists, and of course, on the other hand, those who are strongly pedo -baptists really are almost, how could

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I put it, they're certainly not happy with the fact that we would encourage men, elders, ministers, to be credo -baptists.

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It's not that novel, because way back in Wales, I believe in the mid -1700s, there was a denomination there, the

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Welsh Calvinistic Church, and they practiced, it is my understanding, an open policy on baptism, and so perhaps it's not as novel as people might imagine.

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Yeah, that's interesting that you said that, because my friend who is now in eternity with Christ, Peter Jeffery, he is from Port Talbot, Wales, and he pastored a church that was actually previously pastored by Martin Lloyd -Jones, it was the first church that Martin Lloyd -Jones pastored, and Sanfields was the name of the church, and they had the same policy, so it's interesting that you mentioned that Welsh connection.

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Yes, and I've enjoyed Peter Jeffery's many books and booklets, greatly profited from those, and actually there's a book that was written, it may even be an autobiography, but it's certainly a book concerning the life of a great woman of God, and it's called

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Memories of Sanfields, and actually I think Martin Lloyd -Jones. Yes, and in fact

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I had the rare privilege of having Peter Jeffery visit with my mother on her deathbed when he was during one of his visits to the

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United States. He spent a half hour alone with my mother. My mother had been

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Roman Catholic her whole life, but she did have, thanks be to the Lord, a conversion while on her deathbed six weeks prior to entering into eternity, and although I was very confident in her profession,

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I still had some fear and trepidation, and Peter Jeffery emerged from her sick room, and he said to me,

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I don't know what you're worried about, your mother's going to heaven, she's born again! Well, you know, it's wonderful to hear that deathbed repentances are often mocked.

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I have to say, I don't know exclusively, but it seems like a lot in Reformed circles, but I'm always minded of what

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Matthew Henry said, that there's only one deathbed repentance recorded in scripture, clearly, and that's the dying feast.

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And so he said there's only one, lest any should presume upon God's grace.

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He said that there is one, lest any should despair of God's grace. Amen, amen.

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I think that's wonderful. Amen. Well, I'm going to give our listeners our email address in the event that they would like to join us on the air with a question.

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Our topic again today is challenging the claim of celibate homosexual Christianity, and our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

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Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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And also remember folks, Brad Zell is joining us the second hour of the program, and he is going to be discussing

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God is Love, the most misunderstood, misused, twisted, and falsified truth in religion.

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Well, this is a subject that is one that very often evokes anger from people, even from some that profess to be

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Christians, because they think what we are doing is an exercise in hate, and an exercise in self -righteousness, and an exercise in bigotry.

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But isn't it true that if you truly believe in the inerrancy of the

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Bible, you believe that everything that is taught in the Bible is actually being taught by God himself?

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It's God -breathed, that we are not exercising or expressing or demonstrating love towards someone if we are making them comfortable in an activity or even a thought life that will send them to hell without repentance.

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I mean, how is that loving, if you believe this to be true, that homosexuality is among many damning sins?

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In fact, any sin that doesn't have the covering of Christ's blood will send one to hell.

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But it's just remarkable to me that there are people, even though we may treat homosexuals or those involved in that activity with love and compassion, just because we have this very strongly held, unwavering belief, theological view, they will call it hate.

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And this is not the truth at all, is it? No, it isn't. And I am reminded of the words of the

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Apostle himself, the Apostle Paul, who had quite a bit to say about this subject.

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Read Romans chapter 1, read his comments in 1 Corinthians chapter 6. The Apostle Paul said on one occasion, am

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I become your enemy because I tell you the truth? I would contend, as you've just stated, that a person's best friend is the one who will tell him the truth.

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And I don't think anyone who would be asleep in a burning house would feel that it was an unloving action on behalf of a neighbor to come and raise the alarm as loudly as they possibly could, banging on the door, doing whatever it would take to arise and to awaken that person from their slumber, because they're in mortal, immortal danger.

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They're in danger, certainly in life, of perishing in a fire, but those who are in spiritual peril, it's a much worse situation that they're in.

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So speaking the truth does not mean that we are absent or that we're lacking in love, because again, the

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Apostle Paul in Ephesians made that very statement about speaking the truth in love.

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And there's no doubt that there have been those among God's people who have spoken the truth, but not in love.

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They've maybe spoken the truth in anger, or they appear to come across as very judgmental and condemnatory.

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But the fact of the matter is, there's that which God in his word has stated clearly, and God condemns sin, and it must be upheld, and it must be spoken, and it must be spoken as firmly as we can speak it in love.

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And again, to say things that we say, even if we say them passionately, is not to suggest that we're saying those things in a lack of love or in hatred.

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Nothing could be further from the truth as far as I'm concerned on this issue. I want to see people delivered from all sin, including this one, and the range of sins that belong in that category.

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Now, there are people who profess to be Christian who are filled with hate. The obvious notorious group that may spring to the mind of many people is the

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Westboro Baptist Church, which I would consider a cult. They are known as the

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God Hates Fags group, and there are many other people that they claim God hates in their rhetoric.

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And of course, God does hate sin. But they demonstrate no love, because they offer no call to repentance to homosexuals.

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They believe that God has given up on them, that they are impossible, or it is,

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I should say, it is impossible for homosexuals to repent and convert to Christianity and lay aside this wicked lifestyle.

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So therefore, they merely show up whenever they know homosexuals will be present, with a joyful proclamation that they are going to hell.

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And they take great delight in this. And of course, even we would believe that left to his own will, it is impossible for a homosexual to repent and come to Christ.

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But that's the beauty of sovereign grace, is that God gives us a new heart and makes us willing, those who are his own.

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So we do have a message of hope in the gospel to proclaim to them. But the specific theme that we are addressing today is challenging the claim of celibate homosexual

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Christianity. And this is something that has really, to my understanding, especially in conservative, evangelical, and Reformed circles has just risen up and reared its ugly head in the not so distant past.

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The Catholic Church has had this position for quite a long time, where they will permit men who confess that they are homosexuals into the priesthood, as long as they take a vow of chastity.

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They don't think that there is something gravely serious about the desire itself.

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They think it has to be manifest in a physical action before it becomes very serious, which

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I think the Bible does not teach that. It even condemns the burning in one's heart for someone of your own gender.

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But this is something that has become accepted amongst many today who profess to be conservative

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Bible -believing Christians, who even confess and profess that homosexuality is a damnable sin.

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But they seem to share the aberrant understanding with the Roman Catholics that having this as a proclivity in your mind and a burning desire in your heart, for some reason, doesn't seem that very terribly wrong.

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Am I right on that, as far as that is their claim? Of course, I'm not agreeing with that claim.

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Of course. Well, obviously, there is this claim now, which is a fairly recent phenomenon, as I understand it, of homosexual celibate

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Christianity. The idea that someone could be of a homosexual orientation, or a gay orientation, as they would put it, but at the same time understanding what the

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Bible says about homosexual relations, same -sex relationships, realizing that the

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Bible condemns those things, will say, okay, well, we can't be involved, for example, in gay marriage.

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We can't be involved in same -sex sexual activity. But we can be

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Christians, and we can follow hard after the Lord, and we can make, with those of our same gender, spiritual friendships, which are a rather strange notion, that you can be emotionally engaged with a person in a same -sex relationship, but abstaining from any sort of sexual activity.

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Now, there are extremes within the gay Christianity orbit, if I can use that term.

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I don't like actually conceding the word gay to these people, because the fact is that the

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Bible, certainly in the Authorized Version, uses the word gay, for example, in James chapter 2, where it's referring to one's clothing, and the word in Old English had a completely different connotation to what it has now.

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But if we even concede that word to them, gay Christianity, there are some who have no problem claiming that practicing

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Sodomites, those who are engaged in same -sex activity, can at the same time be

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Christians. But then on the other end of the spectrum, there are some, and this is where the professed evangelicals would come in, who are,

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I think, feeling pressure from what we might call worldly trendsetters, who have adopted the position that homosexual desire can be, in some sense, normal.

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It's something perfectly natural and normal to a person, to certain people, and while the homosexual acts are sinful, they will concede, yet a homosexual orientation is not inherently sinful.

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And even within that homosexual celibate Christianity grouping, there are divergent views, both of which are equally wrong and dangerous.

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And I'm not sure if you have heard of the Revoice Conference?

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Yes, I've had several guests who have critiqued that and opposed it, yeah. Right, so you have those people, and they are coming at this from a certain perspective.

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It's an ecumenical, thoroughly ecumenical grouping. It includes Roman Catholics. It includes people who have no regard whatsoever for the inerrancy of Scripture.

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But then on the other hand, there are voices even within professed evangelicalism, even from fundamentalism,

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I guess, who are giving credence to the idea of gay Christianity. Even from fundamentalism?

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Yes, sir. I'm going to now reference a conference that took place just this year, in February 2019, at Naltones University.

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It was called the Core Conference on Gender, Sexuality, and the Church. One of the speakers,

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Tim Geiger of Harvest USA, based in Philadelphia, was interviewed by Dr.

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Sam Horn of BJU. The interview, which is entitled,

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Ministering to Those with Sexual and Gender Struggles, is actually available in video and transcript form on the

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BJU Today website. And I have to say, it's a very revealing, some might even say shocking, interview.

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I'll just give you a couple of quotes. Tim Geiger was giving his own testimony to Sam Horn, and this is what he said, and I quote,

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I came to Harvest USA myself back in 1997 as a young man who had been struggling with same -sex attraction for a good 20 years.

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One of the things that complicated that struggle was that I was a Christian all during that time.

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Now, if I could just stop there, that presents me with a huge problem, which is that it's not consistent with biblical teaching on repentance.

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Whenever you look at what Paul said about this issue, and I realize he wasn't just referring to those sins, but he certainly included them in 1

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Corinthians chapter 6, he said, I'm such were some of you.

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He didn't say such are some of you, he said such were some of you. So the idea that someone could be in homosexual relationships with a multiplicity of men, that's something that he admitted to, during a period of 20 years, on all of that time in his profession, to be a true

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Christian. I'm afraid I have to take issue with that. In fact, we have to go to our first station break right now, and we're going to come right back with the second half of our interview.

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If anybody else would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter.

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In a subject like this, I could readily understand why it would lend itself to those having personal and private questions.

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So that's ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. Please, though, only be anonymous if it is a personal or private question.

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If it's a general question on biblical doctrine regarding this subject, please at least give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

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USA. Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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G3conference .com. G3conference .com. G3conference .com. G3conference .com. G3conference .com. uh... formerly in allentown pennsylvania where did you say the new city was expert or probable article wal -mart or just a small part but what about the north of our own okay walnut correct and we are discussing challenging the claim of celibate homosexual christianity uh...

39:38

and uh... one thing occurred to me when i was surprised when you said that even in some fundamentalist circles there exists this idea of people who genuinely born again for decades perhaps and nonetheless or uh...

39:59

constantly uh... in a lost struggle for people of the same gender uh...

40:05

it occurred to me that although there are among fundamentalists thoroughgoing calvinist such as you and i are uh...

40:15

there are those uh... i believe or teaching something very seriously and dangerously wrong and you kind of hinted at it in the beginning about something that you reject the idea that somebody could claim with certainty that they are a christian just because they recited a prayer at some point and uh...

40:36

it seems that fundamentalism is divided over that you have yet many amongst the fundamentalists who are romans road advocates if you will who believe uh...

40:49

you shouldn't even question that somebody is born again if they uh...

40:54

admit that they're a sinner admits that they need christ as the savior and uh...

41:01

so on and they are they are told you are uh... born again and if you have any doubts in your mind it's just the devil trying to trick you or whatever uh...

41:10

but uh... not all fundamentalists uh... agree with that and uh... it is that the reason you think that this understanding that homosexual christians or a actual real uh...

41:25

people group do you think that that's why did exist among some who are fundamentalist well uh...

41:32

i'm not sure why it is but people would pick that you uh... uh...

41:37

i don't necessarily think that it would come down to an armenian or calvinistic understanding of salvation necessarily but uh...

41:46

that may come into it i want to be fair here to bob jones university i'm not suggesting that they are in the camp of revoice or that they are supporters of the idea of homosexual celibate christianity i want to make that clear however that conference uh...

42:06

and uh... the video which is available and the transcript which accompanies it uh...

42:11

leaves me with with great problems because the guest who was speaking tim geiger i'm not sure what his own theological position is uh...

42:20

he was seemingly criticizing the church generally uh...

42:26

for it approach to people who are same sex attracted and that the church has not done a good job in ministering to people like that but he goes further and let me just give you another quote he says i think two things the church can do one is to invite sexual strugglers people who struggle with same sex attraction to come out of the darkness and into the light by saying this church is a safe place to struggle openly we want you not to hide your struggle for fear of judgment we want you to come into the light and struggle well unquote the one word that's missing there is repentance he didn't say we want to speak to people who have same sex attraction to repent of that sin but talking about struggling well whatever that means and then he says this which is even more egregious in my opinion i'm not saying that gay or trans people can't be christians and then he says i think that as you grow in maturity as a christian you have to let go of those identities because they're not consistent with the way that God has created and redeemed you unquote so Peter B.

43:38

Geiger in that interview with Sam Horn was was stating that to identify as a gay christian is inconsistent with christianity and yet it is possible to be a gay or trans christian well i'd like to know what the difference is between those he also mentioned that he felt that it was important to engage people who are of a different view those who are arguing that this is the way

44:05

God intended for it to happen we need to equip the church to have a voice in these discussions and the most important thing that the church can do is to try to build relationships mutual trust and mutual respect so that when you have an apologetic dialogue about what scripture says now talking about mutually respectful dialogue with those who believe in gay christianity presumably means that we could engage those who are in the revoice conference orbit and have a discussion about these things i really have a big big problem with that whole conference that people could be quote gay or even trans he's talking about transgender people and saying that they can't be christians well if they're engaged in that activity and they're identifying in that way i would say unequivocally they're not christians and they need to repent of that sin we have an anonymous listener who asks why is it that it is impossible for someone to be a homosexual christian while heterosexual christians battle with lusts for the opposite sex possibly their entire lives what would be the difference and when i say a homosexual christian i'm not speaking of somebody actively involved physically in that sin but somebody who battles lust over the same sex attraction in the same way that a heterosexual battles lusts with the opposite sex well first of all i have an issue with someone identifying themselves as having a homosexual or gay sexual orientation like it's an organic thing the fact that motherhood was not created by male and female god never created homosexuality god created people for what we call heterosexual relations when you go to romans chapter 1 the word god makes it absolutely clear that what was taking place in these activities is unnatural it's against nature that's the very terminology that paul uses even in the book of judah it speaks of those in sodom going after strange flesh so we're talking about two different things entirely now the fact is people can struggle with all kinds of sin that's obvious but what we're dealing with here is the idea that someone can identify as a homosexual claiming as, for example, gregory coles the author of a book single gay christian a personal journey of faith and sexual identity he claims that i'm gay in fact he repeats this over and over again i'm gay, i'm gay, i'm gay and actually in the book blames god for his same sex desires and will certainly say that he wants to obey the word of god and follow christ and not be involved in homosexual activity but he also believes that the blood of jesus leaves him in his homosexual desires and he believes that it is good that's based upon a poem that he has written in the book where he ends by saying that the blood of jesus makes all that he is good now, to me that's an assault upon the blood of christ the blood of christ will cleanse you from homosexuality, not leave you in it so, with all due respect to the listener yes, people can struggle with sin but i don't know of anyone who's going to identify as an adulterous christian i don't know of anyone who would say, i am a pornography christian i don't know of anyone who's going to say in any way shape or form that my life is going to be defined by a sin and that's what we're talking about here with this mindset that i can be a quote, gay christian the term gay itself has been invented by those in you know, the homosexual orbit those who are in that activity they're the ones who coined that actual description and then to add to that gay christian it's a misnomer it's an oxymoron actually to say that you're a gay christian yes, and one thing that these folks seem to fail to remember is that there is something uniquely wrong and uniquely in rebellion against the plan and design of god's creation when it comes to homosexuality in that it is not only evil as heterosexual sin outside of marriage is heterosexual sexual sin but unlike heterosexual sexual sin homosexuality is unnatural correct well the fact of the matter is you and i both believe that the least sin the least sin will damn a soul the least sin that is unforgiven will take a person to hell no doubt about that but the idea that homosexual activity and you could include even bestiality you could include other forms of sexual deviance that somehow these are just sins among sins

50:17

I'm always reminded of what happened in the book of Ezekiel where there were those who were taken in and shown certain abominations and then the lord said to them come with me and I will show you greater abominations than these and this is in keeping with the great confessions of faith as well as the scripture all sins are not equally heinous in the sight of god there are some sins that frankly are worse than others and there's no doubt that homosexuality fits into that category because as I've already mentioned

50:55

Romans chapter 1 uses a number of descriptions of the sin, men with men men burning in their lust toward other men, men leaving the natural use of the woman and burning in their lust one toward another the bible talks about it in terms of vile affection it talks about it in terms of that we get against nature so all of these would certainly make us to conclude that homosexuality is an unnatural behavior for someone to say that they're a homosexual

51:34

Christian but celibate how can you divorce the sexual element from that because this is another thing that we could go into and I probably don't have time to some have even referenced david and jonathan in scripture trying to say that that is sort of a template for a celibate same sex relationship and I believe that to be verging on blasphemy one thing that actually goes over the line of blasphemy big time is the view by some homosexual activists and theologians that the disciple and apostle john and jesus christ had this kind of relationship that's why john reclined on jesus's breast and so on and again they wouldn't necessarily claim some would but they wouldn't necessarily claim that there was a sexual element to that but it's in the same it really means the same thing because what they're trying to say is that this fits into queer culture that this is the kind of thing that's a template if you like for same sex relationships that it is endorsed in some way that it is somehow given credence by what the lord did in relation to the disciples but if you get back to david and jonathan david and jonathan were both men who had children jonathan's son was mephibosheth david had wives and he had children, the idea that somehow there was this kind of a relationship that allows for a modern day person to say oh i'm just the same as david or i'm just the same as jonathan in my relationship with this other person is really almost beyond the pale i think when it comes to using the scripture in a wrong way it's so egregious i think but i think there's another element to some of this that we could really touch on that i think is important and that is gay christianity is being supported by anecdotal evidence and subjective testimony which is being allowed to trump the word of god you have people saying well this is who i am this is how i am this is my experience and then we're being told that the church needs to listen to the stories of same sex attracted believers and then formulate their opinions as a church by taking into account these very real testimonials but the fact is that there are many other testimonials that present a really different perspective on that issue and there are people who have been genuinely converted from homosexuality they've been saved by the grace of god they've been washed in the blood of christ and they certainly are not people who would now want to trumpet some claim to being a homosexual christian or a gay christian they've repented of this and repudiated that lifestyle and we are out of time brother i know that you could only be on with us for the first hour we have to go to our midway break now can you quickly give any contact information that you care to share for the free presbyterian church congregation where you pastor in walnut port pennsylvania yes my congregation is located in 233 233 main street walnut port pennsylvania my own email address if you wish to have that is r -e -v -s h -a -m -i -l it looks like revshaml at verizon .net

55:29

so that's r -e -v -s h -a -m -i -l at verizon .net

55:36

and then there's a church website which is not just for my own congregation but the denomination and it is www .freepres

55:46

.org so that's f -r -e -e -p -r -e -s dot org well thank you so much brother i look forward to meeting you face to face next week at the conference in carlisle pennsylvania and i'll be giving our listeners more details about that towards the end of the show thank you good to be with you thank you too god bless well folks don't go away we're going to a midway break right now it's the longer than normal break be patient with us because grace life radio in lake city florida requires a longer break so that they can air their own public service announcements to localize our show to lake city florida a requirement of the fcc so please be patient we're going to be back with our second guest brad zell right after these messages from our sponsors so don't go away when iron sharpens iron radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the new american standard bible were among my very first sponsors it gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the iron sharpens iron radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the nasb i'm dr joseph piper president and professor of systematic and homiletical theology at greenville presbyterian theological seminary in taylor south carolina and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor chuck white at the first trinity lutheran church in tonawanda new york and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor anthony methenia of christ church in radford virginia and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor jesse miller of damascus road christian church in gardnerville nevada and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor bruce bennett of word of truth church in farmerville long island new york and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor rodney brown of metro bible church in south lake texas and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor jim harrison of red mills baptist church in mayapack falls new york and the nasb is my bible of choice here's a great way for your church to help keep iron trumpets iron radio on the air pastors are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart consider restocking your pews with the nasb and tell the publishers you heard about them chris arnzen on iron trumpets iron radio go to nasbible .com

58:15

that's nasbible .com to place your order i'm pastor bill shishko host of a visit to the pastors study and i am so thankful to be part of the advertising family right here on iron sharpens iron if you live on long island or if you're visiting the metropolitan new york area i invite you to join us for worship at the haven on sundays at 4 .30pm

58:43

we meet at the ascension lutheran church facility 33 bayshore road in deer park new york at the haven you'll find god's saturated singing gospel rich ministry and great commission opportunities learn more about us at thehavenli .com

58:59

and join us this sunday at 4 .30pm 33 bayshore road deer park new york chris arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio announcing a new website with an exciting offer from world magazine by a trusted source for news from a christian perspective try world now at no charge for 90 days by going to getworldnow .com

59:25

that's getworldnow .com i rely on world because i trust the reporting i gain insight from the analysis and world provides clarity to the news stories that really matter i believe you'll also find world to be an invaluable resource to better understand critical topics with a depth that's simply not found in other media outlets armed with this coverage world can help you to be a voice of wisdom in your family and your community this trial includes bi -weekly issues of world magazine on scene reporting from world radio and the fully shareable content of world digital there's no obligation and no credit card required visit getworldnow .com

01:00:06

today also check out world news group's podcast the world and everything in it at w n g dot org forward slash podcast that's w for world n for news g for group dot org forward slash podcast i'm james white of alpha omega ministries and my friend chris arenson and i are excited to be attending another g3 conference together in atlanta georgia thursday january 16th through saturday january 18th on a theme that is vitally important to all of us worship matters i'll be on the speaking lineup with eric thomas joel beakey paul washer steve lawson phil johnson tom askell vody balkan and the world renowned preacher teacher and author john mccarthur a fascinating new addition to the roster is costi hymn nephew of the notorious false teacher benny hymn costi has repented the word faith heresies of his youth and is now a reformed baptist pastor and cessationist in california come join me and chris arenson at g3 2020 january 16th through the 18th in atlanta by registering at g3 conference dot com that's g3 conference dot com see you there i'm so grateful to our sovereign god that while manning an exhibitors booth for iron sharpens iron a major bible conference i providentially met pastor andrew smith of christ reformed community church just south of jacksonville florida right off i -95 in saint john's county andrew is certainly the kind of pastor that is a perfect match for my radio show and has already proven to be an ideal guest christ reformed community church shares my conviction that god is both creator and sustainer of the universe he rules and reigns providentially over our lives he directs not only the historical events of the world but also the personal events of individuals i agree with christ reformed community church that the very purpose of the church is to make disciples that we are tasked with the responsibility to evangelize locally nationally and globally and that we are to equip the saints for the work of service unlike the man centered seeker sensitive movement they do not gauge the success of biblical discipleship by how many people are in a church but by the faithful ministry of god's word and gospel for more details on christ reformed community church visit christ reformed cc .com

01:02:51

that's christ reformed cc .com or call 904 955 9881 that's 904 955 9881 tell pastor andrew that you heard about them on iron trumpets iron radio i'm pastor andrew smith and i'd like to urge you to consider joining christ reformed community church saint john's florida in financially supporting iron sharpens iron radio did you know that all believers are priests in first peter chapter 2 verse 9 the apostle peter describes christ church as comprising a chosen race a royal priesthood a holy nation a people for god's own possession so that you may proclaim the excellences of him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light so if you're a christian you're also a priest now you can find the newest styles in reformed and protestant apparel at citizenpriest .com

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citizenpriest .com specializes in christian themed t -shirts and clothing especially for reformed christians citizenpriest .com's

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01:04:24

visit citizenpriest .com today chris arenson host of iron sharpens iron radio here i want to tell you about a man i have personally known for many years his name is dan buttafuoco dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer but not the type that typically comes to mind dan cares about people and is a theologian himself recently he wrote a book titled consider the evidence for the bible ravi zacharias wrote the foreword dan also has a masters degree in theology dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states he represents many christians in serious injury matters all over the country dan is an exceptional trial lawyer he wrote the test for the national board of trial advocacy and currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for 1 million dollars or more and in approximately 10 different states in illinois his lawyers had the 4th largest settlement in the states history in new york his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the law journal if you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state i recommend that you call dan consultations are free there is no fee unless you win dan buttafucco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878 1 -800 -669 -4878 1 -800 -669 -4878 or email me for dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:06:03

that's chrisarnson at gmail .com music music music i'm dr tony costa professor of apologetics and islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

01:06:22

I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak, and have grown to love,

01:06:28

Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jansen and Christopher McDowell.

01:06:35

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

01:06:52

Christ Jesus the King and His doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.

01:06:59

I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as I have.

01:07:08

For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

01:07:15

That's hopereformedli .net. Or call 631 -696 -5711.

01:07:24

That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York, that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

01:07:50

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here. If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know

01:07:55

I have a great love for getting Bibles and other documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity.

01:08:03

Besides that, they feel so good. I'm so delighted I discovered Post -Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding.

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No radio ad will be long enough to sing their praises sufficiently, but I'll give it a shot. Jeffrey Rice of Post -Tenebrous

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Lux is a remarkably gifted craftsman and artisan. All his work is done by hand, from the cutting, to the pleating of corners, to the perimeter stitching.

01:08:25

Jeffrey uses the finest in buttery -soft imported leathers in a wide variety of gorgeous colors, like the turquoise goatskin tanned in Italy used for my

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Nestle All in 28th edition, with a navy blue goatskin inside liner, and the electric blue goatskin from a

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French tannery used to rebind a Reformation study Bible I used as a gift. The silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome.

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Jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications and even emboss your logo into the leather, making whatever he rebinds a one -of -a -kind work of art.

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For more details on Post -Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding, go to ptlbiblerebinding .com.

01:09:10

That's ptlbiblerebinding .com. Welcome back, this is

01:09:18

Chris Arnzen, before we launch into our second half of today's show with Brad Zell, our second guest today, who is going to be discussing

01:09:28

God is Love, which is a very misunderstood and misused and twisted and falsified truth in religion.

01:09:39

Before we go into that discussion, we have some important announcements to make regarding special events that we hope that you will attend, the first of which

01:09:49

I will be there in attendance, God willing. The American Council of Christian Churches is having their 2019 convention at Faith Chapel in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, and two of the many guest speakers that they have on their roster are the first guest that you heard today,

01:10:11

Pastor Stephen Hamilton, and also our second guest, which we will be introducing momentarily,

01:10:17

Brad Zell. They are both on the roster, and many more speakers are on the roster, and we hope that you attend this conference, if you are able to travel to Carlisle, Pennsylvania, that's next week, the exact dates of this conference

01:10:35

I will get to momentarily, but it is actually

01:10:42

Tuesday through Thursday of next week, Tuesday through Thursday of next week, and the theme of the conference that they are going to be addressing, all with different subtitles underneath this main heading, is

01:10:59

Biblical Fundamentalism Pursuing Purity, Biblical Fundamentalism Pursuing Purity.

01:11:05

If you want more information on that conference, and want to join me there, you can go to accc4truth .org,

01:11:18

that's accc4truth .org,

01:11:25

and then when you get to that website, all you need to do is click events, and that will come up right there in the top of the event list, so I hope that you will join me there next

01:11:38

Tuesday through Thursday. Then, coming up in December, oh, I'm sorry, before December, actually, at the beginning of next month, we have a conference of the

01:11:52

Long Island Spurgeon Fellowship, and that is being held at the

01:11:58

Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York. I will be there as well.

01:12:05

That is going to be held November 1st and November 2nd at Hope Reform Baptist Church, Coram, Long Island, New York, on the theme,

01:12:11

The Doctrines of Grace, and some of the topics include God's Sovereignty, Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Perseverance of the

01:12:21

Saints, Is Calvinism Biblical?, and a Question and Answer Roundtable with the audience.

01:12:26

There are a number of local pastors on Long Island who will be speaking at this conference, and I can personally vouch that all of the men speaking are excellent.

01:12:37

If you would love to join me there, I would love to see you there, go to reformedrookie .com,

01:12:44

reformedrookie .com, or you can go to hopereformedli .net, hopereformedli .net,

01:12:51

and you can also call area code 631 -696 -5711, 631 -696 -5711.

01:13:00

Then after that in December, I am going to be packing up my bags again and heading to my old stomping grounds in New York City for the

01:13:10

Foundations Conference, a conference of sermonaudio .com. That's Thursday and Friday, December 19th and 20th.

01:13:17

The speakers include Dr. Stephen J. Lawson, Paul Washer, Rev. Jeff Thomas, Rev. Armin Tomasian, Richard Caldwell Jr.,

01:13:25

and Andrew Quigley. This is a conference for men in ministry leadership only. They can only seat less than 200 people, so therefore they have restricted attendance to men in ministry leadership.

01:13:39

So if you want to join me there, go to thefoundationsconference .com,

01:13:46

thefoundationsconference .com. That's Thursday and Friday, December 19th and 20th, right in the heart of the

01:13:51

Christmas season. There's no better place, in my opinion, to be spending at least a good portion of the

01:13:57

Christmas season than in New York City, and that's where I'll be December 19th and 20th at the

01:14:02

Foundations Conference in Manhattan. Thefoundationsconference .com, thefoundationsconference .com.

01:14:08

Then coming up in January, January 16th through the 18th, which is a

01:14:14

Thursday through Saturday, I am going to be packing up my bags again and heading down south this time to Atlanta, Georgia, more specifically

01:14:21

College Park, Georgia, a suburb of Atlanta, to the Georgia International Convention Center, right near the airport in Atlanta.

01:14:30

And this is a monumental event every year for me, the G3 Conference.

01:14:36

It stands for Gospel Grace and Glory. They have the largest roster of speakers I've ever seen at any conference, and all of them are superb.

01:14:46

The theme is Worship Matters, and the speakers include, once again,

01:14:52

Dr. Stephen J. Lawson. They include Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries.

01:14:57

They include Phil Johnson, Executive Director of John MacArthur's Ministry. Praise to you. Todd Friel of Richard TV and Richard Radio.

01:15:05

Derek Thomas, the world -renowned Presbyterian author, conference speaker, and pastor.

01:15:11

Tom Askell, the Executive Director of Founders Ministries, the Calvinistic ministry within the Southern Baptist Convention.

01:15:18

Stephen J. Nichols, the President of Reformation Bible College, the college founded by the late

01:15:23

R .C. Sproul and Ligonier Ministries. Kosti Hinn, the nephew of the notorious heretic and charlatan

01:15:29

Benny Hinn, who has renounced the heresies of his uncle and renounced the word of faith heresies, and has become a cessationist and a

01:15:38

Reformed Baptist pastor. He is now pastoring in Arizona. And there are many more, including the latest addition to the conference lineup,

01:15:47

John MacArthur himself. I'm so excited about this conference, and I'll be manning an exhibitor's booth there.

01:15:52

I hope you join me there at the G3 Conference. Go to G3conference .com, G3conference .com.

01:15:59

I strongly urge you, if you have a business of parachurch ministry, or anything else that you want to promote to a very large number of Christians, then

01:16:08

I would strongly urge you to register for an exhibitor's booth in addition to registering to attend.

01:16:14

So I have been manning an exhibitor's booth there so far three years, and this

01:16:20

January will be my fourth year manning an exhibitor's booth at the G3 Conference, and it's always a monumental, phenomenal, mind -blowing experience, and a very beneficial and fruit -bearing experience for Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

01:16:33

So I hope you join me there with an exhibitor's booth, too, if it applies to you. Go to G3conference .com,

01:16:40

G3conference .com. They have over 5 ,000 people there every year, and this year, with John MacArthur added, I think they're going to have over 6 ,000 people.

01:16:47

So if you want to register for an exhibitor's booth, do so quickly before they run out of room. They're going to run out of room for that a lot faster than they will run out of room for seats, because it's a very large place, the

01:16:58

Georgia International Convention Center. But register for both if the booth applies to you.

01:17:06

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01:17:13

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01:17:32

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01:17:38

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I urge you to please rectify that situation immediately. And I ask of you to send me an email to ChrisArnsett at gmail .com.

01:19:43

ChrisArnsett at gmail .com, because I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the world, and I could possibly help you find a church near where you live, no matter where that may be.

01:19:56

I've already helped quite a number of listeners in our audience find churches all over the world, whether they have joined them personally as members or whether they have visited them on vacation, or whether they have referred them to family friends and loved ones who do not have church homes.

01:20:15

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So please join us as a benevolent donor or as an advertiser as soon as you can.

01:20:41

We are now being joined by our guest, Brad Zell. As I said earlier,

01:20:47

Brad Zell, he is a returning guest to this show.

01:20:53

He is the author of The Legacy of Billy Graham, The Accommodation of Truth to Error in the Evangelical Church, and an elder of the

01:21:01

Bible Presbyterian Church of Charlotte, North Carolina, president of the International Council of Christian Churches, and of the

01:21:08

Independent Board of Presbyterian Foreign Missions, and editor of Redeeming the

01:21:14

Time magazine. Today we are addressing, for the second hour of this program, God is Love, the most misunderstood, misused, twisted and falsified truth in religion.

01:21:23

We are also going to be, once again, announcing the 78th Annual Convention of the

01:21:28

American Council of Christian Churches at Faith Chapel in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, on the theme,

01:21:34

Biblical Fundamentalism Pursuing Purity, where our guest, Brad K. Zell, is on the roster.

01:21:40

It is an honor and privilege to welcome you back, Brad Zell. Well, it is good to be with you again,

01:21:46

Chris. And if you could, Brad, why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about this conference coming up next week,

01:21:54

Tuesday through Thursday, at the Faith Chapel in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. Yes, the

01:22:00

American Council of Christian Churches is meeting in Carlisle, and the

01:22:06

ACCC was founded in 1941, and this is the 78th

01:22:14

Annual Convention. This is a council of Bible -believing

01:22:21

Methodists, Baptists, Presbyterians, Bible churches, and other denominations who maintain their denominational beliefs, and they don't compromise on that at all, but yet they realize that the body of Christ is much larger than any single church or denomination.

01:22:48

Yes, it's refreshing to see such Biblical ecumenism amongst those who profess to be fundamentalists.

01:22:54

Yes. And I stress the word Biblical, they do not believe in being unevenly yoked with unbelievers in fellowship or in worship services or anything like that, but as long as one is a true believer in the

01:23:13

Gospel of Jesus Christ, one is not and believes in the pillars of the faith, then they would welcome them into fellowship.

01:23:22

And again, that is next Tuesday through Thursday here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania at Faith Chapel.

01:23:29

Can you tell us specifically about your theme that you will be speaking on? Yes, at this convention there will be a number of Bible messages, but in the afternoon they have some breakout sessions on how our fathers ministered, including a number of fundamentalists from the 20th century who have gone to be with the

01:23:54

Lord, and the one that I have been assigned is Dr. Carl McIntyre, who was the first president of the

01:24:02

International Council of Christian Churches. Great. And there are, as I said, many other speakers on the roster there that have different messages that they are delivering under the subcategory of the main theme,

01:24:21

Biblical Fundamentals in Pursuing Purity. So we will repeat that website at the end of the program.

01:24:27

Right now we are discussing the theme, God is Love, the Most Misunderstood, Misused, Twisted, and Falsified Truth in Religion.

01:24:36

Do you think that I have overstated that? No, I don't. Just the other night on the news

01:24:45

I heard someone that was talking about the new homosexual agenda, and, well,

01:24:56

God is love, so, you know, I don't think that we shouldn't have anything against this.

01:25:02

And this is applied to many things that the Bible is against, and we thank the

01:25:10

Lord for the love that he had for our souls, and we are to love one another, and to love our brethren, but Christ tells us that if you love me, keep my commandments.

01:25:22

Amen. And this idea of God is love is not typically hurled at anyone who is trying to defend or minimize the seriousness of wicked

01:25:41

God dishonoring activity, activity that God himself has clearly said in his word are activities and even beliefs that will send one to hell if they are not repented of, and if the blood of Christ is not covering that individual through faith in that shed blood on Calvary.

01:26:03

These are people who are typically trying to paint a caricature of Christians as just being bigoted and hateful people who are self -righteous, who think that they are better than anybody else, who don't recognize sin in their own lives, and they just like to pick on others, but if somebody is truly born again, and I'm not saying that there are not many professing

01:26:28

Christians, and I stress professing, but even some genuine Christians that sin in that area of being proud and not evangelizing in a humble and compassionate and loving fashion, that these people do exist, but if somebody is truly born again and obeying the scriptures in evangelism, the way that they will truly love those involved in sin is by calling upon them to repent, is it not?

01:26:57

That's for sure, and every one of us is a sinner who, the

01:27:02

Bible says that the heart of man is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked, who can know it, and that includes you and me, and so we all need to be saved by the blood of Christ and the salvation which the

01:27:19

Lord offers to us, so none of us is better and can puff ourselves up just like the

01:27:26

Pharisees and say, I thank thee that I am not as other men, and so yes, the call to repentance is at the very heart of the

01:27:37

Gospel, we are told to repent in many places, and so that is something that we must insist on when we present the

01:27:50

Gospel. Well, if you could go to the scriptures and speak on specifically the issue of God being love, and the context from which the scriptures are addressing that very issue.

01:28:05

Yes, well, the International Council of Christian Churches is meeting in Puerto Montt, Chile from January 22nd to 29th, 2020, and the theme of the conference is

01:28:19

God is Love, from 1 John Chapter 4, and it's quite interesting, this is one of the main passages in the

01:28:29

Gospel about God's love, and verses 7, 8, 9, 10, and on, is where the phrase that God is love is found, but yet when you look at the first 6 or 7 verses of the chapter, it says, beloved believe not every spirit, but try the spirits, whether they are of God, because many false prophets are gone out into the world, and then we get down to a little later, and it talks of that we need to discern the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error, and so that is the background, and then the very next verse, beloved let us love one another, for love is of God, and everyone that loveth is born of God, and knoweth

01:29:21

God, and so the love of God is always in the context of obedience and faithfulness to his word.

01:29:32

Yes, nobody, even the most left -wing of parents, would believe that it is a loving parenting, a loving way of parenting, to allow your children to do anything at all that they want to do, obviously, the world is becoming so corrupt that there are parents that are not far from that, there are parents who are allowing their children to pick their gender as if that were possible, but at the same time, even most liberals, or leftists

01:30:16

I should say, would not say that a child should be able to do anything he wants to do, a child should be able to play in the middle of the street, a child should be able to play with electrical outlets, and of course, a leftist would never say their children, when they grow to be 18, have the freedom to vote

01:30:37

Republican, so there are standards that parents typically have, and things that they give liberty for their children to participate in, and things that they prohibit, so it's amazing that one would think that God would be somehow different.

01:30:55

Yes, and we see all through the scriptures where we are told not just what love is, but what it is not,

01:31:05

Paul in Romans 12 verse 9 tells us to let love be without dissimulation, it has to be genuine, it can't be phony, and then he says, abhor that which is evil, cleave to that which is good, so here in the context of love, we are to abhor and hate that which is evil, and cleave to that which is good, and Amos tells us, hate the evil and love the good, so this contrast is found all through the scriptures.

01:31:42

Yes, and we are Calvinists, and I don't speak on behalf of all of the speakers at the upcoming conference in Carlisle, Pennsylvania at Faith Chapel, some of them,

01:31:59

I believe at least two, are evangelical Methodists, so they would disagree with us on this, but Calvinists, I believe, being one myself, have the most biblical understanding on the love of God, because we do not believe that God loves every individual at least in the same way.

01:32:23

God may have a general love of creation, including the reprobate, but he does not love the reprobate, he does not love those going to hell in the same way that he loves his own elect, his own children.

01:32:38

It is, in fact, I think, not only unbiblical and heretical, but nonsensical to believe that God loves those who will be spending an eternity in torment in the same exact way that he loves his children who will be spending an eternity with him in indescribable joy and peace in heaven.

01:33:03

It makes no sense that those two different categories of humanity would be loved in the same way by God.

01:33:10

Obviously he loves his elect, his own children, as a parent, and he also, in the person of Jesus Christ, loves us as his bride, which he does not have that love for those who are the reprobate.

01:33:28

Am I off pace here? No, not at all. Incidentally, there's a number of evangelical

01:33:34

Methodists that are Calvinists. Oh, okay. I know that Dr.

01:33:43

Martin Lloyd -Jones was, I don't know if he was an evangelical Methodist in regard to the denomination, but he was a

01:33:49

Calvinist Methodist. Yes, and the Whitefieldian Methodists are quite prominent.

01:33:58

But Romans chapter 9 really opened my eyes when I was a teenager.

01:34:05

God says, Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated, and doth not the potter have power over the clay to make one to honor and one to dishonor?

01:34:16

And then who art thou, O man, to reply against God? And most of the arguments

01:34:23

I've heard against the doctrines of grace are from a human fairness standard.

01:34:30

Well, how could that be fair? And I once heard a minister when he was preaching, and he said the amazing thing is,

01:34:39

Jacob have I loved, not Esau have I hated. Yeah, that he would love any of us.

01:34:45

Yes, exactly. Yes, well, do you think also that one of the things that is misunderstood about God being loved is that they will take that true statement, and perhaps even go into more detail, and say the very truthful declaration that God is the purest and most loving

01:35:13

God? Yes, and I believe that God is

01:35:32

His attributes. God is love, and there's no comparable expression of love than what

01:35:43

God has given, and we must take what the Bible says that God is a holy and just God, primarily, and I believe it's in Isaiah where it says that He loves righteousness and justice, and so we have to look at the whole situation of the fact that God is a just and a holy

01:36:12

God, and His standard cannot be violated, and we're in no way able of ourselves to meet

01:36:20

His standard. Now, how would you respond to somebody who says, what real harm can be done if you have an exaggerated or not thoroughly biblical understanding of God being loved?

01:36:41

They are on the side that perhaps is more prone to turn a blind eye and a deaf ear away from the sinful activities of others, and perhaps even themselves, not even, at times even recognizing some of the ways they think and behave are damning themselves, but what are some of the reasons why this is such an important issue that we have to understand rightly the fact that God is love and not misuse that and not twist it?

01:37:25

Well, God is not permissive of our sin.

01:37:31

He's a God of great love and mercy and long -suffering, but there's no way that we can go to heaven except for the atonement provided by Jesus Christ.

01:37:46

Our theme verse in Chile is 1 John 4 .10, herein is love, not that we love

01:37:51

God, but that He loved us and gave His Son to be the propitiation for our sin, and so He loved us, but Christ had to pay the sacrifice for the expiation of our sin.

01:38:09

And of course that precious and beautiful word that you used, a very deep theological term that many people have never heard because sadly it's never uttered from the pulpits of the churches where they attend or are members, propitiation, is that not the very fact that Jesus Christ, the perfect man and being the

01:38:37

God -man on Calvary, He turned away the wrath of God that is deserved by each and every one of us, humans, and took it upon Himself, that great exchange that took place on the cross where our sins were imputed to Christ and His righteousness has been imputed to us, and when

01:39:03

I say our and us, I'm talking about His people, because one of the beauties of the

01:39:09

Reformed faith, going back to Calvinism, is that we know that this is a perfect and complete act on the cross, a perfect act of redemption that He provided, and therefore everyone for whom

01:39:22

Christ died will have Christ's righteousness imputed to them, and everyone for whom

01:39:30

Christ died will have their sins, or should I say, had their sins imputed to Christ on the cross.

01:39:38

Yes, and that is correct. As Calvinists we believe that Christ died for the elect.

01:39:47

Some of our Arminian brothers would have us think that He died for everyone and He's pleading for them to accept, but that's not what the

01:40:01

Bible teaches, that salvation is of the

01:40:06

Lord and we were dead in trespasses and sins, and it was the work of His Spirit that authored regeneration and faith in our hearts.

01:40:22

Well, we have to go to our final break right now. It will be a much briefer break, a much more brief break than the last one, but please, if you intend to send in a question to ChrisArnson at gmail .com

01:40:33

for our guest Brad Zell on God is Love, please do so quickly because we're rapidly running out of time.

01:40:39

It's ChrisArnson at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

01:40:45

Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

01:40:50

U .S .A. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. We'll be right back after these messages with more

01:40:58

Brad Zell. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and the Dividing Line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach, and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church, now located at their new beautiful facilities in Corham, Long Island, New York.

01:41:21

I've had the privilege of opening God's Word from their pulpit on many occasions, have led youth retreats for them, and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my

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I also want to congratulate Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham for their recent appointment with Pastor Rich Jensen's co -elder,

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Pastor Christopher McDowell. For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

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That's hopereformedli .net, or call 631 -696 -5711.

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That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, that you heard about them from James White on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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Gary Kimbrough, Patrick Bethlehem Baptist Church in Laurel, Mississippi. God tells us in James 127 that pure and undefiled religion is a visit to fatherless and widows in their affliction.

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In the providence of God three years ago, I discovered a poor, small church outside Lusaka, Zambia in a township called

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Cabanana, who are taking care of 24 orphans. I found them just at the time when they had lost all their funding.

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What was I to do? Could I just say God bless you and walk away? The situation of the children set heavily upon me.

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If just 50 of us would give $35 a month, we could meet the need. Bethlehem Baptist Church will pay the fee to get the funds there.

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So if you give a dollar, a dollar will get to the orphans. In this season of hope and giving, will you consider giving hope to 24 orphans?

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Please send your gift of any amount to Bethlehem Baptist Church, 838 Reed Road, Laurel, Mississippi 39443, or donate through our website, bbclaurel .com.

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Again, the address is Bethlehem Baptist Church, 838 Reed Road, Laurel, Mississippi 39443, or bbclaurel .com.

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on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Welcome back, this is

01:54:35

Chris Arnzen and we have five minutes left to share with Brad Zell on God is

01:54:41

Love, the most misunderstood, misused, twisted, and falsified truth in religion and Brad, I would like you to, before we take a listener question or two,

01:54:52

I want you to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners about this very important topic of God is

01:54:58

Love. Well, I believe that we should not take it lightly.

01:55:05

We are to love our Christian brothers, we are to be concerned for them, and their need should be our need, and we should in no way not care about our fellow believers, but we also must do that which is according to the word of God.

01:55:29

It's interesting that 2 John and 3 John, he writes to the ones he's writing to, whom

01:55:38

I love in the truth, and he tied that. If I may,

01:55:44

I would like to point out that there's a whole issue in the church world on the issue of love.

01:55:51

The International Council that we've been speaking of, their theme is from 1

01:55:57

John 4, the World Council of Churches, which is the liberal apostate council of churches, its theme for this coming

01:56:07

Congress is that Christ's love calls the world to reconciliation, and this is a message not of the gospel that they have.

01:56:24

They present Christ's love as being here on this earth.

01:56:30

The General Secretary of the World Council wrote that may

01:56:36

God motivate and guide us in our planning and work in anticipation of the coming unity of humankind, thy kingdom come, and so they call for a new world economic architecture, they call for universal health care, and many things they call for are good things, but they've replaced the gospel, the true gospel of love, with a false gospel that cannot save.

01:57:07

Many of our people are in churches that are in the World Council. Well we have time for one final question from Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania.

01:57:19

When we present the truth of God in love, and when we declare that God is love, do you think that we who believe in the biblical truth that God also demonstrates wrath, that we should be presenting these things with not only firmness, but also compassion and adding to our words good deeds, even to those who despise our message?

01:57:47

Yes, well Christ tells us that we're to love our enemies and to do good to those who despiteful use us, and so we should give the gospel in a compassionate, kind way, but we also must recognize that God does exhibit wrath, and I think it's

01:58:10

Hebrews 10 that Jonathan Edwards took his passage for his famous sermon,

01:58:16

Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God, and so we must balance all of those aspects.

01:58:24

Well if anybody listening wants to attend the conference where Brad Zell and our first guest

01:58:30

Steve Hamilton and a number of other speakers are on the roster, that's the

01:58:35

American Council of Christian Churches convention that they are having, the 2019 convention, next

01:58:44

Tuesday through Thursday at the Faith Chapel in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. They have to go to accc4truth .org,

01:58:54

and that's the number 4, and then all you need to do is click on events and you will find all the details that you need.

01:59:01

Brad, do you have any contact information that you'd like to share for yourself? Well you can take a look at our magazine at RTT for Readers of the

01:59:13

Bible. It's www .RTTpublications

01:59:31

.org. Great. Well I want to thank you again, Brad. I look forward to seeing you, in fact meeting you for the first time face -to -face.

01:59:38

Yes, I look forward to that. And I hope that everybody always remembers for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater