February 12, 2018 Show with Interviews from the 2018 G3 Conference Part 5: Tom Buck & Michael Wieszchowski

Iron Sharpens Iron

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors

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Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour

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And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions

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Now here's our host Chris Arnton Good Afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth

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We're listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com. This is Chris Arntz and your host of iron sharpens iron radio

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Wishing you all a happy Monday on this twelfth day of February 2018 only two days away from the birthday of yours truly and For my birthday this year all's

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I am requesting is one million dollars in cash in unmarked bills mail to the address you'll see if you go to iron sharpens iron radio .com

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and Click on support you see a mailing address there when you click on support mail

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That money as I requested one million dollars in cash in unmarked bills

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And I look forward to receiving that money for my birthday to help iron sharpens iron remain on the air and Today we are going to be continuing our series of on -site interviews or playing

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I should say our series of on -site interviews that were conducted in January at the g3 conference right there in the

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Exhibitors booth hall where I had an exhibitors booth for iron sharpens iron radio and It was such a joy and a blessing and a delight to be there and I look forward

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God willing to returning for the 2019 G3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia next year, but without further ado.

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I am now going to start to play some of those interviews at least two of them

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That were conducted on -site and and keep in mind those of you who are listening Perhaps that were interviewed at g3 conference at the g3 conference and you have not yet heard your interview

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I intend to eventually play all of them So keep your eyes and ears open for future broadcasts where I will continue airing the g3 interviews

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But today we are going to begin with the interview. I conducted with Tom Buck and I hope you enjoy it just as much as I did here is part one of three parts of the

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Tom Buck interview This is

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Chris Ornson of iron sharpens iron radio again alive on site at the g3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia, in fact,

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I keep saying live on set. I guess it wouldn't be live for those listening over the airwaves at the moment, they're hearing me speaking because This is being pre -recorded for a future date, so perhaps that's an

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Inappropriate use of language, but I am on site at the g3 conference and it's been such a joy to Not only meet so many people even more than last year people.

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I've never seen before in my life who have told me that they have been listening to iron sharpens iron radio and loving it and people of all

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Skin colors and backgrounds and Geographic locations and it's just been blowing me away and humbling to see how many people have been

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Blessed by what we do here on iron sharpens iron radio, but I'm so glad To be interviewing right now somebody that my dear friend of many years.

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Dr James R white of Alpha Omega ministries has spoke very fondly of for quite a while His name is

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Tom Buck and he is the pastor of First Baptist Church in Lindale, Texas And he is in attendance here at the g3 conference

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And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to iron sharpens iron radio pastor

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Tom Buck Thank you. It's an honor to be with you today. Well, tell us first of all something about First Baptist Church of Lindale, Texas Well, our church is located in East Texas about an hour east of Dallas I've been the pastor there senior pastor for 12 years it is established church since about 18 and 87 so a long -standing church

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And just thankful for the opportunity the impact that we have in that area. We're focusing on Building the solid church on the

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Word of God and also helping to equip other pastors in the area In building healthy churches, so that's kind of our vision both inwardly and outwardly in the community

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Now, how would you describe your church theologically and any any way else that you'd care to describe it?

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Well, I would we're Southern Baptist Church So it has been Southern Baptist not its entire history.

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It was actually a Baptist Missionary Alliance BMA Prior to becoming Southern Baptist about 75 years.

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I don't even think I'm familiar with that denomination or that Fellowship of Baptists, it's a smaller group.

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That's mainly located in Arkansas, Louisiana and Texas But a very solid theological group as well.

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They're reformed there are seminaries located in Jacksonville seminary one of her their seminaries also in Little Rock, Arkansas and Our church would be considered to be reformed in its doctrine specifically soteriology soteriologically and Southern Baptist as well.

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So we're aligned with the founders movement In the Southern Baptist Convention nine marks ish in the sense of dr

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Tom Askel is a good friend of mine has been on my program many times and I'm looking forward to interviewing him at some point before I leave

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Atlantic as I know he's here and Well, what are the things that I like to do when

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I especially when I interview somebody for the first time I'd like you to give a summary of your testimony of salvation about the kind of Religious atmosphere if any you were raised in what the providential circumstances the

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Lord used draw you to himself and Also how you came to embrace the doctrines of sovereign grace, which may have been simultaneous with your

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Salvation experience, but perhaps they're not they weren't with me Tell us something about that.

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It certainly wasn't with me either. I I grew up in a Southern Baptist Church in East, Tennessee and that was in the late 60s early 70s so that was the time when the

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Southern Baptist Convention was in quite a bit of turmoil regarding its Theological convictions coming out of the seminary.

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So my pastor was quite liberal. I Didn't know that Until later on But he was he preached from the

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Bible But he didn't preach the Bible But I'm thankful that I in other words.

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He read the words, but then reinterpreted them. I was involved in isa Jesus Absolutely.

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I remember one sermon in particular that he preached regarding the demoniac when

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Jesus encountered and When Jesus asked his name, of course the demon spoke

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Elysian meet which means one of many and The pastor who denied he didn't believe in miracles and didn't believe in the spiritual world

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Saw the man answering that and saying that he had kind of lost his identity in the world

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And he was just one of many people and had forgotten his own name So that's

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I mean that's still in my memory interestingly enough from when I was probably about seven or eight years old So I came to know the

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Lord though because I was raised my parents were believers and my mom Constantly shared the gospel with me

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But later on as I would I realized that that my pastor probably about Interestingly enough about eight or nine years old.

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I realized that my pastor wasn't preaching what was in the Bible He would read and say something else and I would ask my parents about that I began listening to WMBI out of Chattanooga and listening to the pastors preach the

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Bible in a very different way and I had decided that I wanted to go to Moody Bible Institute I went there and that's where I was introduced to the doctrines of grace of which

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I Immediately was repulsed by what I heard at Moody Bible Institute yes, you were introduced to the doctrines of grace because it's not really known for being at least a

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Thoroughly reformed Institute for higher education. Well, I was introduced to four points.

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We'll put it that way Calvinist with the lisps at least as I said to up instead of tulip

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As we would call them, but dr. Marvin Mayer. He's still alive today and and taught me the

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Word of God and and It didn't take me long though to be convinced

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Because as soon as I went back and wrestled with what the text said and he I was taking him for the book of Romans It was as clear as could be to me.

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Although I had been raised completely opposite so I Immediately saw what the

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Word of God was saying and was ecstatic to see that you know, here's this is truth and so I repulsed at the beginning, but very quickly embraced it and went back home to my home church and and had interesting discussions will say with my pastor who

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Was quite concerned that I had been taken over by the dark side And of course

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Erwin Lutzer is a thoroughgoing Calvinist from what I understand. Yes, and so while I was in Bible callers there at Moody that's where I attended church

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Loved to hear Erwin Lutzer unpack the word. He was an expositor for sure. Yes for sure and that's where I came to Fall in love with the handling of God's Word in an expositional manner and I went on to Dallas seminary so I did the full dispensational route and Then decided that I wanted to go and begin

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What I called at that time and there it's kind of popular now, but it's been 25 years ago revitalizing churches

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I want to go into a church that had just died not in the sense of just Its effectiveness and Began to just preach the

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Word of God I went to Florida and was there for 12 years and the Lord was gracious and blessing that and now I'm in in East, Texas So I've been in two churches both for 12 years

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Yes, in fact when you're or our mutual friend. Dr. James R. White wrote the book the potter's freedom

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Erwin Lutzer was very enthusiastic and excited to write an endorsement for it, which he did and He was

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In a panic that he might not make the deadline, but he God thanks be to God was able to get his his endorsement in his commendation for the book before it went to print so That commendation is still in the current edition of that What can you tell our listeners about?

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What it is like Being a pastor of a sovereign grace -believing Church in what is known as the

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Bible Belt In fact, even you could even make it a broader issue as well

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Being a person who I'm assuming if you are a Reformed Church that you believe in a regenerate membership and The Southern Baptist Convention as every single

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Calvinist I know in the Southern Baptist Convention has freely admitted to me you have scores of churches where the credibility of conversion of multitudes in those congregations, especially the very enormous ones is

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Very doubtful at times. In fact, I could still remember Speaking to an old preacher in Mississippi years ago

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When I told him I was from New York He said well you guys in New York you get it easy

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All's you got to do is get people saved we got to get them lost then get them saved

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Now he was reformed so obviously he didn't believe that anybody any human gets anybody saved

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But it was the way it was just a quaint way of Speaking about evangelism and the fact that in the

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Bible Belt people most people think that they're Christians just because they're from Baptist or Pentecostal or some kind of evangelical background

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Absolutely. In fact, that's one of the reasons I originally went to Florida because I had grown up in that cultural Christianity and I was actually repulsed by that And I just said

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I'm not gonna I don't want to go into that I would rather go into Southern Florida where a lot of people were moving down from New York and Boston and those areas and just it was very different interacting with those individuals who were fine to tell you that they were lost and Didn't care one bit to claim that they had no religious affiliation but the

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Lord Worked in certain ways and this opportunity opened up it to go to First Baptist and I found that It was going to be a different challenge in one sense of where I was in in Southern Florida and going to the cultural

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Christianity that was there in East, Texas very much like where I came from in East, Tennessee I The church it was very different than the church.

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I went to in Florida that had 50 people now I was going to a church that Had attendance of about seven to eight hundred with over 2 ,000 members and That was going to be a challenge.

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I was thankful That and the reason I went there was very open I think that one of the things that happens often in the

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Southern Baptist Convention Is I have found that there are some guys who aren't really open and honest up front about where they are in their doctrine

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I was very open and honest the pulpit committee as they talked with me. That's what they wanted So in that made made it easy in that sense but I shared with them that it it was gonna be a long road because you can't go in and bring the kind of Reform that needs to take place overnight

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And so one of the things I would say is that as guys go into the Bible belt pastors

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They need to have a patience patience of Job so to speak that they're willing

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To take the time that it's going to take to make the changes that need to be made The church churches don't become unhealthy overnight.

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They certainly don't become healthy even at this as fast as they become unhealthy So we we began

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Just preaching the word but one of the first things we addressed was under was regenerate membership and Rather than just wiping the rolls clean we felt we had a

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Responsibility and this is what I shared with the church that we have a responsibility we at one time Took these individuals whether we did it flippantly or not.

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We took them into the care of this church and We are to be shepherding them.

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We are the ones are at fault for allowing them to drift away from the church They certainly have a responsibility

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It is the responsibility of that individual Christian to stay connected But the church had allowed these people to to disconnect themselves and had done nothing to that I'm aware of to have

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Pursued after them and so we spent two years I was probably there a year or two before we began this but we spent two years of Working it caught to try to contact each and every person

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That was no longer Connected to the church was on the membership rolls and we began with the approach that we failed you

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The biblical role of the church is to love and care for its flock We haven't done that and we began to reach out to them visit each home that we went to try to visit each home many of Them we couldn't find

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But we took a two -year Painstaking effort to locate them and then after we had recovered a very very few

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Minuscule amount of two thousand maybe two maybe two or three four people we began to Take to the church

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Those whom are unwilling to come back and begin the process of removing them from the membership of the church

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But we tried to do it in the most loving and caring way we can I think pastors Need to do that and not go to the extreme of just coming to begin to wipe out the rules and begin over again

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Now to those people who were being removed react to that. It's kind of interesting one couple that we went and visited sweet dear couple and They said we we're really busy we worked a lot we have our own business and we don't we're not probably going to be coming

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But we don't want to be taken off the rolls and We lovingly said that's not the path that we would take forward.

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We went to the church. We removed them from the rolls Two weeks later. They come they're in church

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And they come up and they say this is not what we want That was four years ago and they haven't missed church since Wow they

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Came and rejoined the fellowship. Now, that's one couple out of the myriad. Some of them got very angry

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So they even give a reason They had just fallen out of the habit and what

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I mean is do they give a reason why they're angry? You're moving them from the rolls No, they

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They would call us judgmental I think For so many the reason

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I say it's the fault of the church for so much as we we took lightly them coming in So what's the big deal if they're not around?

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So I think churches one of the things they must do is have a more careful Process of how you allow members to come into the church so that they understand the gravity of what it means to be a member

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So it is odd when you say why are you removing me? You haven't cared for 20 years

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Why do you care all of a sudden? So I think their anger was probably out of just not

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Understanding on many levels and some of them probably weren't believers and they had made a profession

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Got baptized became a member and they may have not come back at another day Which was my experience growing up in my churches in East Tennessee.

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Now is the First Baptist Church of Lindale confessional? No Well, we are in one sense we are in the sense that we hold to the

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Baptist faith and message But we're not at the point where We have you know kind of reformed to that degree

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I Think that is when you're bringing change about in the church. I think you have to begin to say what are the most

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Important things I need to deal with right now Hills do I need to die? Yeah, I'd be willing to die and I've even taken it in this kind of analogy if a doctor goes in He may have three different patients that all need the same surgery

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But they have various other things that might be wrong with them and he has to determine. What do

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I treat first? What risks am I going to take if a surgery is needed to take place this patient?

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I'm going to rush him in this patient. I've got to get these other things under control first So I think that takes great wisdom and patience as you work with the church

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So we just adopted a church covenant in the last two years the reason

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We were did not adopt that church coming to the last two years is because one of the things in the church covenant

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Dealt directly with that if you participated in any level of alcohol You could not be a member of the church and I am personally a tea total er but I Wanted I felt like the church need to understand we should not bind the consciences

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With of our people with anything God's Word doesn't so we're gonna say we believe the word But then bind their conscience with something extra biblical.

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That's not right, but our church was not ready for that So it was better to not use a church covenant

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For example until the church was ready to make that change when we made the change we had a hundred percent vote

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To not include that language and have a covenant that was was different than that. So that's just one example

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It's kind of interesting how? One would have a mindset Where we don't want people in the church that ever drink at all any amount of alcohol socially

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But as if they stay away from the church, they can still be members Yes, it is

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Does your as far as being In a church or pastoring a church that is theologically reformed

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What is the reaction then? to what you believe and the way you preach and teach and disciple from Christianity or Christendom in the surrounding area of that Lindale, Texas Well, of course, we've had some folks who have rejected that and have left our church.

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I Believe you attract who you are. So when you preach the word it becomes clear.

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I'm I'm not one who Speaks of terms like Calvinism.

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I don't wear my reformed Points upon my sleeve, but I preach the text and I don't shy away from what the text says

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So it's I'm I know I'm clear enough because I get in enough debates That people come after up after a sermon to know that I've been clear about what

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I believe but the good thing is is that there are some folks in our church who are diametrically opposed to some of these things but yet They remain they know that I'm preaching the word.

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They remain faithful to the church. We have some good interaction sometimes Strong I wouldn't even

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I wouldn't use the word heated but strong debate But they have stayed and they are not disgruntled.

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I think sometimes they're disturbed by certain things are said We have interaction with that.

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So we've had classes of people. We've drawn people that are committed We've we've kept people who are who are maybe somewhat objection objecting to certain things we've lost some people and then you also draw sometimes the people that are the caged stagers and And they don't think

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I'm reformed enough So you get it all across the spectrum now,

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I don't know how, you know Thoroughly studied you are about the history of the

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Southern Baptist Convention and about the South in general but it seems interesting that In the 21st century of course

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Calvinism is a minority everywhere perhaps except Grand Rapids, Michigan but It's especially rare and a minority view in the

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South and yet the Southern Baptist Convention began completely

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By Calvinistic pastors Do you have any idea what happened to reverse the situation where?

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you have now Calvinists in the Southern Baptist Convention who are a tiny minority and In some cases are even vilified and condemned and there are warnings being sounded against them by the majority who are

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Calling themselves traditionalists who are not Calvinist How did we reach that point and how can there be such

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Universal ignorance about the Calvinistic roots of this denomination Well, I think that you begin to see the movement away from strong reform soteriology at least around 1925 with the

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Southern Baptist Statement of Faith then They were wanting to they began even then watering down the language even of the

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New Hampshire Confession which itself was somewhat of a watering down of the language and So you begin to see that drift take place?

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and I think that I Know this is going to sound

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Probably by those who are on the side and say that that's that's arrogant, but the convention drifted away

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From that theological position and we also see it drift away into what it became in the 70s 60s and 70s

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Which was a liberal denomination. Yeah. Now the moment you say that the other side cries that you know that You know that that's arrogant to say that Calvinism is what keeps you there.

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I don't think Calvinism keeps you anywhere I don't think reformed theology certainly necessarily keeps you anywhere but here's the thing that's tied to when you preach the scriptures and You preach them clearly in an expositional manner of what is the text saying?

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That is the key I think to bringing about those who come to understand the doctrines of Reformed theology or Calvinism because it's clearly in the

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Word of God And so I I credit the drift in the convention to the failure to of the preaching in the pulpit

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You have W a crystal. He was an expositor now He wasn't as strong of a Calvinist as some

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Calvinist are today in the convention But he was much more Calvinist than he was what other people try to paint him out to be and what was he?

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He he wasn't, you know, the quintessential expositor, but he certainly was an expositor

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And so for me as we preach the Word of God I think that's what's called the rebut calls the revitalization this in in the

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Southern Baptist Convention Now those who oppose it. I have dear friends that opposed that opposed reformed theology in the convention and I love them.

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They're they're godly men intelligent men But I think there's a disconnect where they

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Somehow believe that these doctrines are a threat to evangelism and Southern Baptists have always been praise

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God committed to want to evangelize I think that Committed to a to some faults that they commit in order to get people to respond

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Because we push those baptism numbers and that makes us, you know feel good that people are being reached

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And so I think they have a false connection there as well that a baptism means somebody got saved

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When we both know that that's not always the case So, I believe that's where the disconnect comes is they just can't they believe that this is going to destroy missions that Calvinists don't care about evangelism and when the reasons they point to is

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Take for example my church. It's been said he took the church of tooth over 2 ,000 and now it's down to 850

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No, I didn't I took a church of 850 and exposed that they had fake numbers

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We're gonna be continuing with the Tom Buck interview After these messages from our sponsors, so please don't go away

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G3 conference this is the second of three parts with a

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Tom Buck and But please sit back relax and enjoy this wonderful interview and Southern Baptists have always been praise

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God committed to want to evangelize I think that Committed to a to some faults that they commit in order to get people to respond

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Because we push those baptism numbers and that makes us, you know Good that people are being reached.

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And so I think they have a false connection there as well that a baptism means somebody got saved When we both know that that's not always the case

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So, I believe that's where the disconnect comes is they just can't they believe that this is going to destroy missions that Calvinists don't care about evangelism.

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And one of the reasons they point to is Take for example my church

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It's been said he took the church of tooth over 2 ,000 and now it's down to 850

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No, I didn't. I took a church of 850 and Exposed that they had fake numbers in your church building even hold 2 ,000 people.

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No Yeah, we have to have I inherited this but we have to have two services to hold the number we have

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So we would have to have four services to hold 2 ,000 so it's not like you have

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Dozens and dozens of empty pews that you would have had them Anyway, if these people were absentee members of the church, but it's a it's a ridiculous charge because you were just as you said

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Exposing that those people weren't truly members. We also have fewer baptisms compared to many of the other churches

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But I you know, I had a pastor tell me just the other day that they had

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There they they run on Sundays 300 or so. They've ran that for a long time and that this last year they had 200 saved

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Well, why aren't you running 500? You ran 300 last year 300 this year 200 got saved now that many people didn't relocate it's because we are satisfied sadly with Evangelism that calls people to a decision but does not call them to repentance and faith and discipleship

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One thing that I have heard from Southern Baptist brethren who are believers in the doctrines of grace very strongly reformed or Calvinistic soteriologically it's ironic that the

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Charge that you mentioned is so common that Calvinism kills Evangelism and yet from what

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I've heard from Southern Baptists About the mission field is that you will have

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People who are non Calvinists who are far less persistent and patient and Persevering in evangelism they and the those especially those on mission boards who uproot people if they don't think that There is quick enough numeric growth in decisions for Christ and they'll pull them away from that area and and it seems to me that if you really believed that God, you know will bring his people from out of every tribe and tongue and people a nation that you would be more patient and more persistent and To linger in areas longer even when there is not very quick fruit

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Or fruit bearing very quickly. I Agree, and I I think I think it was

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Piper that said it that Calvinism is The hope of missions That we can know

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It's the fuel for that that we can know that God has a people and it allows us I think to continue to be persistent to realize that it's up to God to bring about the growth and If I go in thinking here am

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I and I'm gonna say this quotations around it So I don't mean this to be insulting but my five gimmicks or my five, you know

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Plans or whatever it may be that I've used everywhere else and if I go in and those things don't work

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I move on to somewhere else That's what I've seen as a pattern even among pastors in churches in America They go in they have a five -year plan.

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It either works or it doesn't work. It doesn't grow. I move on to the next place Whereas if we're really going to build healthy churches and have healthy missions

37:09

We need the mindset that We have a promise from God that he is going to come now

37:15

He may not do it with my particular minister and in my particular lifetime But my call is to be faithful and I can go in with the confidence and continue to serve there

37:25

Knowing that God is going to accomplish his goal. He's going to accomplish drawing people into his kingdom

37:30

That's what keeps me going or there would be many times. I'd pack my bags and move on to the next town

37:38

I'm Gonna say something. I'm going to ask you about something. That is I have to be very careful the way I word my sentences

37:46

Especially in a day and age of hypersensitivity And I hope that people don't misunderstand what

37:52

I'm saying, but I have been a witness to things

37:59

Lately That some of your Southern Baptist brethren have been participating in that reveal

38:10

Such a desire And I think it has a right motive in a right desire to erase the horrible stereotype and actual horrible

38:26

Stain of a history that has involved the sin of racism

38:33

And it has been a real sin that has existed amongst Southern Baptists and basically it's

38:40

Existed amongst all humans in one level or another for one reason or another.

38:45

I mean you have all kinds of people who are of the same ethnic background who

38:53

Despise those who are from a different region of the country That you know speaks the same language they do and so on.

39:01

I mean, I know I have met and spoken firsthand with Puerto Ricans who are very bigoted against Mexicans and South Americans and I've spoken with South Americans who despise

39:16

Puerto Ricans and you could go on and on and on so the white race is not the only People group that have been guilty of the sin as as many especially liberals would have the world believe but this is a long way of saying that I am concerned about some

39:32

Southern Baptists who so much want to Apologize for the sins of the past of the denomination that they are overlooking theological aberrancies by Believed by those who are black

39:49

Or by those who are Known for being involved in civil rights groups and activities and so on If it concerns me that there are some who are so desperate to be welcomed as Those who do not personally possess the sin of racism

40:13

That they may overlook sins that are equally as damning

40:18

Am I making any sense here? No, you're making sense completely I mean, I've been having this conversation with a variety of pastor friends of mine within the

40:27

Southern Baptist Convention and might I say That the conversations are not exclusively with white people.

40:34

I'm having these conversations with people of various different color and One of the things is that is

40:41

Is Painted is that as if all black Christians agree on this issue?

40:49

They know and they don't the ones who are in the camp of Saying that we that there is a need to figure out a way to forever cleanse the stain

41:02

There are those who don't agree with that that are black are not given the same voice

41:08

That at least even they say that as those who are on the side of the so there seems to be a one -sided conversation

41:14

That's what deeply concerns me I Have pastor friends and I'm one of them.

41:22

So I'll be honest even saying it here that we're sometimes afraid that we are afraid to talk about it because The moment we talk about it.

41:31

It's almost as if there is the thought that well, then you're racist

41:38

I Do believe that I need to listen to my black brothers and sisters and you're right.

41:44

There's Hispanic There's issues of Racism towards not just black people but other races as well, but let's just talk about the black

41:55

I I do agree that I need to listen to my black brothers and sisters to understand their experience to understand that They may have experienced something very different in my worldview and I don't understand what they're feeling what they've been through what all of those things

42:10

But I would say yes that you need to listen to not just the voices that are over here in the side that say there

42:17

Is systemic racism, but listen to the voices of black Men and women who say that's not my experience.

42:23

So to say that the experience of all black Christians are the same is Absolutely demeaning

42:29

To the word that has been used with me by black brothers and sisters in Christ that have not experienced that So we're going to listen listen listen to everybody.

42:37

We're gonna have a conversation. Let's have a conversation with everyone, but it has come to the point that As long as you have a certain position

42:47

Then other things can be ignored I have asked some questions even with the

42:54

ERLC regarding The upcoming Martin Luther King 50th anniversary, I Have a very nuanced position on that.

43:03

My nuanced position is this I am thankful For how God used

43:08

Martin Luther King in his sovereign plan in the history of this nation to deal with the blight that was upon this nation regarding the racism that Infiltrated the south in particular, but was in the north as well.

43:22

But particularly in the south and That there are deep wounds

43:27

Deep wounds with our brothers and sisters many of them of what took place This is not just with slavery that might be their grandfather great -grandfather great -great -grandfather.

43:37

This is Grandfather that's still live that experienced this and if we are insensitive to them that is

43:44

Is horrific and not godly so I'm thankful for what God used Martin Luther King on the other side.

43:53

I We can Elevate him to say as as a good pastor when he denied some essential essential theological

44:06

Doctrines that are not outer concentric circle issues, but our core Issues of the bodily resurrection issues of the deity of Christ issues of the virgin birth the very things that we fought in the

44:21

Resurgence of the Southern Rapids Convention Against the liberals he held of those positions now

44:26

We certainly don't need to throw Martin Luther King to the side and say he can't be honored because of his

44:32

Whatever other sins that are out there that are talked about But why can't we not say have a nuanced position it'd be okay, but it is not received

44:43

Well when I've asked those questions What comes back is well, you just want to throw him out.

44:48

You're just a racist No, not at all. I don't understand the

44:56

Maybe I don't understand because I come from a privileged background and said Maybe that's true, and I don't know it

45:02

But I can't have the conversation and even feel comfortable asking some of the questions that I want to ask to better understand

45:10

Because it's not being allowed so I have grave concerns. I really do Yeah, when you start thinking that way that you have to Overlook heresy

45:23

Because of the way a person may have been treated By the very just because of the very nature of the color of their skin

45:33

You you you're treading in dangerous waters to Saying that people who have been victims or persecuted genuinely.

45:43

I'm not saying that That Especially in the era of the civil rights movement there were lynchings and there were all kinds of horrible things going on regularly

45:54

Not that they'd never happened today, but they were regularly going on and of course dr. King was assassinated

46:03

But to say that just because someone is a member of a

46:09

Group whether it be this the color of one's skin or any kind of ethnic

46:16

Community that they may be a part of that is just opening up a exploding open a dam of heresies that could just be flooded into the church even more than exists now in the areas where for By the grace of God it has been prevented from coming in But we're seeing more and more compromise in churches and seminaries identifying themselves as reformed as it is and this is just another way of compromise just because people have been mistreated that they seem to have a a

46:54

License to hold to things that we have always considered as reformed

46:59

Christians damning they have a right to Believe these things and we it is our duty to overlook those things

47:08

Because we can't remove heroes from people Absolutely unless They were considered a racist at one time

47:18

So if it's a person that had racism in their background we can tear down their statues

47:24

We can remove everything about them We can that's all that they're categorized it as and So racism has been raised to the level as the almost the unpardonable sin

47:34

And in the interesting thing about it, and of course, it's wicked. It's wicked.

47:39

It's vile. It's damning it is it's damning to hell anyone that anyone that is a

47:47

Racist who condones his racism, right? But here's the thing The same people we're talking about Will tell us that with homosexuality

47:56

That people can struggle with that their whole lives and we continue to love them and preach the God's grace to them

48:02

And they'll still go to heaven even and I'm not saying they won't because I believe that people can struggle with that So they'll say that someone can married name any sin even even as we're having the debate about Transgender that we should welcome those in our church

48:16

Because they may struggle with that and we need to give them the gospel you and I both would agree on that They may struggle with that their whole lives

48:23

There are certain Individuals obviously that if they're still involved in a sin, we wouldn't invite them into membership

48:34

But they may attend our services and hear the preaching of the gospel, correct so what

48:39

I'm saying is a meaning to say is that They will look at those individuals and say they may struggle with those type of things in their life and still be a believer but racism you must

48:53

Completely never struggle with that again. You must never have an issue with that You must renounce it once and for all at the at the altar or you're not saved.

49:02

I Think sin is in the hearts of all of us We all are battling and fighting against it if we're true believers.

49:10

We are working to mortify our sin We are not in any way labeling ourself.

49:16

I mean we have people saying Labeling themselves very freely to say that I have same -sex attraction.

49:23

I struggle with it, but I don't act on it Imagine if I began to say I want everybody to know

49:28

I struggle with racism internally, but I never act on it So that's my point there's an unbelievable attack upon this particular sin

49:39

That is so different from every other sin. There's a lot of things that are troubling Me in this issue with the

49:45

Southern Baptist Convention. Well, we're going to go to our midway break right now It's a longer break than normal because of our friends at grace life radio requiring that we have a longer break between our two 54 minute segments

50:01

So I hope you that you are patient with us as we go to this break And we'll be right back at willing right after these messages with more of the on -site g3 conference interviews from g3 2018 this past January in Atlanta, Georgia, and we have one more of those

50:19

G3 conference interviews or one more segment. I should say of our Tom Buck interview and Don't go away.

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58:57

Start airing the third part of the third of three parts of our interview with Tom buck that was conducted on site at the g3 conference in January of 2018 at the

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Please send us an email to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and put Advertising in the subject line last but not least the spirit of the age and the age of the spirit is

01:03:05

The theme of the Philadelphia conference on reform theology Coming up at two different places

01:03:10

Even though it's called the Philadelphia conference on reform theology just to have a connection with that historical conference that began with Dr.

01:03:18

James Montgomery Boyce at 10th Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania There are two locations that this conference is being where this conference is being held this year the first is the first Christian Reform Church of Byron Center, Michigan April 13th through the 15th the second

01:03:38

April 27th through the 28th Is that the Proclamation Presbyterian Church in Byron?

01:03:45

I'm sorry, Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania. That's Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania and the speakers of the plenary speakers include

01:03:54

Daniel Aiken Richard Gaffin Daniel Hyde Conrad M. Bayway one of my favorite preachers of all time and Richard Phillips Workshop speakers include

01:04:04

Jonathan Master David Murray and Scott Oliphant and Most of these speakers have been on iron sharpens iron radio in the past I look forward to getting each and every one of them eventually on the show

01:04:15

But if you would like to register for this conference go to G to go to I'm almost to give you the g3 conference address

01:04:22

Go to Alliance net org Alliance net org That is the website of the

01:04:28

Alliance of confessing evangelicals who are running this event or these events I should say and Please tell them at the

01:04:36

Alliance of confessing evangelicals that you heard about these conferences from Chris Arnzen on iron sharpens iron radio and now we are returning to part three of three of The interview that we conducted with Tom Buck On site at the g3 conference,

01:04:55

I hope that you enjoy this this interview with Tom Buck what a precious brother in Christ he is and I enjoyed interviewing him very very much.

01:05:06

So I hope you enjoy it just as much and Tom Buck I am certainly going to Try my best to get him back on iron sharpens iron very soon

01:05:17

Because I just loved interviewing him I think sin is in the hearts of all of us

01:05:22

We all are battling and fighting against it. If we're true believers. We are working to mortify our sin

01:05:29

We are not in any way labeling ourself. I mean we have people saying

01:05:34

Labeling themselves very freely to say that I have same -sex attraction. I struggle with it, but I don't act on it

01:05:42

Imagine if I began to say I want everybody to know I struggle with racism internally But I never act on it

01:05:50

So that's my point there's an unbelievable attack upon this particular sin That is so different from every other sin.

01:05:59

There's a lot of things that are troubling Me in this issue with the Southern Baptist Convention and I am wondering what may develop in the years ahead of us

01:06:10

Because there are different philosophies amongst Leftists that divide them and sometimes

01:06:20

I we have even been seeing in the news lately how Feminism may trump the

01:06:31

The I'm trying to use a correct phrase here Let me reverse the way

01:06:39

I'm saying it misogyny or or perceived that misogyny the the view of belittling women

01:06:50

In any way that seems to be trumping the race issue There you know you seem to be seeing or not even seem to you are seeing

01:07:03

Celebrities who are black being accused right alongside with white people for Being you know involved in sexual unwelcomed sexual behavior towards women and one must wonder all these heroes that the left wants or has wanted for many years to uphold as Pillars of Decent moral

01:07:36

American Society that When are they going to be toppled because we find out things that they viewed or that We find out how they viewed women in certain areas like you could go even go back

01:07:55

To some of the the heroes that we hear about during Black History Month And I'm not saying that we shouldn't hear about them, but especially when you're talking about The 18th and 19th century how did the average black man view women then

01:08:10

I mean you you may have leftist feminists finding out things about these men that That we are all supposed to be viewing as heroes and some of them are many of them

01:08:24

If not most of them rightly so and yet they will be robbed of their position in history

01:08:29

Perhaps if the feminist card trumps the race card you understand what

01:08:35

I'm saying absolutely, I I think that the whole hero mentality is faulty anyway

01:08:45

We just as a church need to be preaching the gospel I'm not I in some ways

01:08:50

I could care less whether a statue of anybody goes up or comes down from our American culture But I in fact,

01:08:58

I I don't understand why pastors get involved at all on one either side of that But that's on the monument.

01:09:04

Yeah Whoever it's to it. I'm speaking regarding heroes that we have I think

01:09:09

Let the church get back to just preaching the Word of God addressing all sin and quit allowing the ebb and flow of the

01:09:19

Culture to drive what we're trying to do in our churches in the pulpit Because the scent of today or yesterday

01:09:26

Which was heavily racism as you said now is moving towards misogyny in our culture It's always going to be something new

01:09:33

Because the culture is always trying to make itself look moral and deal with the issues that they think are important in the day

01:09:40

And the church is always trying to catch up and that's what we'll forever be doing to be relevant in the culture today

01:09:46

Let's just preach the word. Let's just win people to to Christ and be focused on Building churches that will have an answer for today and tomorrow and a hundred years from now barring the

01:09:59

Lord's return Now I could be wrong, but I'm assuming that you are not completely opposed to Christians having heroes as long as we don't turn them into idols

01:10:12

I mean I have heroes like Charles Spurgeon and even R .C. Sproul and even James White a living hero

01:10:22

And I think that there's nothing wrong with emulating people for Admirable actions and character traits that they possess that we should learn from without going to the extreme of holding them up as idols and overlooking anything

01:10:42

At all that they were where they were flawed I mean, what do you think about what

01:10:47

I just said? I agree wholeheartedly so if I look at someone like someone wanted to debate me the other day that Jonathan Edwards was a slave holder and that he promoted human slavery

01:10:58

Obviously, I have not looked enough into what his writings are on that But let's just I'll assume that that was that what they were saying they supported for sake of argument is true

01:11:06

Obviously, I wouldn't condone that but that doesn't mean That I then have to absolutely

01:11:13

Consider him to be a wretch because of his being wrong in that particular area

01:11:18

I certainly do not want to be judged a hundred years from now by the same standard that we are judging our former leaders

01:11:28

In the way that they're doing this that everything is dismissed If if you knew everything that I've struggled with in my life if in everything in my heart and vice versa

01:11:39

We would probably be repulsed to sit with one another because we All of us have thoughts sinful thoughts in our mind things that we're battling whatever it may be to mortify in our life the question is

01:11:53

I Can't I am NOT that I don't want to be defined by the worst things that I've ever done

01:11:59

I want to be defined as my collective whole and that just doesn't seem to be taking place today and some of the things that Men who were men of their times

01:12:13

Said and wrote That are very unfortunate We could even go back to Martin Luther the things that he wrote toward the end of his life about the

01:12:22

Jews and so on That was not the focal point of their lives that dominated their ministries or what they wrote about I mean there is a big difference between somebody who is

01:12:41

Driven in most of what they do by the sin of racism like somebody we're not going to obviously it

01:12:49

Uphold as a hero of the faith Somebody who was a member of the Ku Klux Klan or a grand dragon of the

01:12:57

Ku Klux Klan Who might happen to have written something that was theologically accurate or what have you not that I even know of one that exists a book or something of that nature from somebody in that organization, but my point is

01:13:14

Jonathan Edwards mission in life was not to Uphold the myth of white supremacy that was not his

01:13:24

It's not what he exhausted himself writing about and preaching about I have his collected works and not just a small to two volume

01:13:32

But the Yale volume and I've been I've read 70 % of it. I haven't come across anything yet That would cause me to think that he promoted anything of white racism now somebody may say or supremacy they may say well if he had slaves than he had to but I Think there's one other thing that's missing in this especially if we're if we're reformed

01:13:56

Why are we so arrogant to believe? When we already know but by the grace of God there go

01:14:02

I why are we so arrogant to believe that had I Lived in the time of Jonathan Edwards that I would have been seen it so perfectly

01:14:12

Now we do know there were people that did by the grace of God see these things William Wilberforce Yeah, I mean there you go a guy that saw it, but thank

01:14:20

God that he raised someone up like that in fact the Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America the

01:14:29

Covenanters they were the first Christians in the south that had integrated services and were opposed to slavery and Especially if you are not including

01:14:47

Quakers into the mix because it's debatable whether you can really consider

01:14:54

Quakerism as a part of evangelical or historic Protestant Christianity, but the the reformed

01:15:00

Presbyterians they were Among the first in the south or the first as a denomination to openly oppose slavery

01:15:09

Well, do we think as we look in judgment on the past that every single one of us would have been a

01:15:16

William Wilberforce? I think not and they're

01:15:22

Do and do we think that? 400 years from now that people will not look back upon things that we believed and Say how did they ever believe that and they will see the scripture in areas?

01:15:35

That's truth that we were blind to I just think there is a tremendous arrogance going on right now that we need to be humbled

01:15:42

And we need to stop and we need to be careful about how we are I believe causing division within the church even in how we're

01:15:51

Not having a conversation about this, but we're saying conversation over. Here's what you must believe regarding this.

01:15:59

Yes, in fact Obviously there are even Pelagians Who? Object to the notion of Mankind being cursed with the sin of Adam Thinking wrongly that they would have somehow

01:16:18

Been you know more pure and obedient to God if only I could have been there, right and they they don't see it as a

01:16:27

Justice that all men are cursed with this thinking that if that they would be able to somehow overcome

01:16:36

The temptations to sin and and be sinless for their entire lives, even though they couldn't point to one person who actually has achieved it

01:16:44

Have you interviewed Votie Bauckham on this issue? I have wanted to interview Votie Bauckham for years and I saw him

01:16:52

In the restaurant here before the conference and he said that he would be interviewed So hopefully that will happen, but I love

01:16:59

Votie Bauckham and I've heard him preach and well he's one of those black brothers that sees the view differently and I he has been and he was hit hard by Even our reformed many of our reformed black brothers because of the positions he took publicly uncertain very notorious circumstances and news -making events where he was

01:17:24

Saying that, you know if you're in a community to not dot dot if you're in a community dominated by black citizens and most of those

01:17:37

Young black men are being murdered by other black men. Isn't that an issue that you should be addressing more ferociously and vigorously?

01:17:46

than the Occasions where white police officers are committing these crimes and not that we should overlook

01:17:53

Abuses by the police or anything like that, but I'm just saying this is and I of course paraphrase Votie But that seemed to be what he was saying and unless you think

01:18:01

I miss No, I heard the same thing and I think that it would be interesting to hear from him regarding how does he how would he speak to us as As white brothers and sisters in Christ and how we can go about Understanding the issue and engaging others on the issue so that we can have unity in the church

01:18:25

There's a lot of disunity about this and it's not because everybody that is concerned is a racist the disunity is

01:18:35

Is because of the myriad of reasons and one of the biggest reasons is because there's an unwillingness to have a conversation right and The boy who cried wolf syndrome is very much in play here

01:18:49

Because I believe Racism is indeed alive and well, unfortunately it is a sin that exists amongst professing

01:18:58

Christians to send that I have experienced in Conversations with Christians and I am taken aback at sometimes how openly racist

01:19:11

Some individuals I know are and they would refuse to acknowledge that But When you constantly hear people being accused of it when they are clearly not guilty in those instances where they're accused of it where they're being slandered where their

01:19:30

Characters are being assassinated and you just keep hearing this over and over and over again people don't take it seriously when it actually is occurring or they don't take it as seriously as they should and It's just like oh, yeah another charge of racism again, you know, come on.

01:19:46

Give me a break It's a very dangerous situation that is developing and It Basically disagreement with leftist philosophy equates racism in many cases in the minds of And at the end of the day, what is the cure if you will for a racist heart, is it not the gospel and The gospel is the only thing that can transform people and that's what the church needs to be busy about not

01:20:24

Civil Solely, I have no good to nothing against civil action per se But where the church is put the church puts its energy and efforts into trying to change the culture

01:20:36

Without giving them the gospel and I don't understand that because these are the same people that were mad at Richard Land In the 80s for trying to force in their words

01:20:50

Morality upon America without the gospel and now they're just got another brand of it

01:20:57

Of issue of morality and they're saying we need to stamp out racism in our country

01:21:03

Well, how are we going to do that? It's not through legislation though.

01:21:08

We certainly need to have legislation hearts must be changed first That's the purpose of the church

01:21:14

Should we also speak for good legislation? Yes, but that if our energies are lopsided away from the gut preaching of the gospel to that Then we are in serious trouble.

01:21:26

Yes, the the conservatives Decades ago were the ones that were accused of being a part of the thought police

01:21:35

But it certainly has reversed 180 degrees Where those on the left it's it's ironic how the slogan that was very often uttered and perhaps still is

01:21:47

Often uttered by those on the left is you cannot legislate morality and yet everything that they are doing

01:21:55

Politically is an attempt at legislating things that they view to be moral and They are going to extremes that conservatives never dreamed of Even in the heyday of You know the the greatest amount of political control that conservatives had in this country it's getting scary and and you could even see not that I approve of Vulgarity amongst

01:22:26

Liberal comedians and so on but you could see that there is a nervousness amongst even them now

01:22:31

From people of their own ilk that that that frequent the same cocktail parties and Socialize together there.

01:22:39

There are there are leftists even who are starting to realize the danger that is coming from their own

01:22:47

Train their own ilk if you will liberalism Well, I would like you now to basically summarize what you personally want

01:23:00

Most to be etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today and Also, of course if you could conclude by making sure our listeners have all of your contact information for the

01:23:09

First Baptist Church of Lindale, Texas Well, my passion and heart is the local church it always has been

01:23:19

Being a pastor is my greatest joy. I love to preach the word

01:23:26

But I love to disciple people and grow people and I guess what the thing that I would want to etch in people's minds is

01:23:34

That if you want to make an impact on the world for Jesus Christ And the local church is where your energies need to be.

01:23:41

I obviously thank God for ministries like iron sharpens iron Because that's what you're doing is you're putting the truth of the doctrine out there find a church

01:23:52

That is going to teach you the Word of God is going to hold you accountable to the truths of God's Word love you enough to come after you and pursue you if you go off in sin and Who will take you from the time that you come to Christ to the time that they bury you in the ground?

01:24:10

to Build you up and equip you in the gospel of Jesus Christ to make you a mature saint the most important thing about a church is what it believes and we go into churches and we often are shopping for a variety of things whether it be a certain program for my stage of life or Music or whatever it may be the thing that should drive us to a church is what do they believe?

01:24:36

What do they preach? Because all those other things are peripheral you can help change those things if there needs to be better programming or whatever

01:24:44

But one thing that you will not make a difference in More likely than not is altering what that church believes

01:24:51

So you need to unite yourself with a church that's solid in its doctrine preaches the word

01:24:56

And the gospel is the only solution that they offer To people for the problem that we have which is sin

01:25:05

My church is Located on the internet it just simply www .fbclindale

01:25:12

.com Which is F -l -i -n -d -a -l -e, that's correct And all our sermons are there and you can get a you can even probably get a taste of kind of who we are we you know, we make we make sure their website lets people know what the culture is like in our church and I'd love you know, if anybody wants to interact with me

01:25:33

They can find a way they can find me there and my email address is just Tom at fbclindale .com

01:25:40

l -i -n -d -a -l -e Well, it's been an honor and privilege to have you on the program today I look forward to many more opportunities to interview you an iron sharpens iron brother, please.

01:25:50

Let's stay in touch Thank you so much for having me and That is the conclusion of the

01:25:56

Tom Buck interview that was conducted live on site at the g3 conference in Atlanta Georgia at the

01:26:04

Georgia International Convention Center. We are now going to go to our final break and then we are going to hear

01:26:11

The Interview that we conducted with pastor Michael wish cowshki and I hope

01:26:18

I pronounced that correctly. I think I did Michael wish cowshki sounds like I have a lisp

01:26:24

But that's how I believe you correctly pronounce it. He is pastor of the

01:26:30

Westminster Chapel in ballground Georgia and I really enjoy this brother.

01:26:38

I thank God for him he is a godsend because he Not only picked me up from the

01:26:44

Amtrak in Atlanta and brought me to the Georgia International Convention Center where my hotel was attached

01:26:52

We marry it there but he also brought me back to the

01:26:58

Amtrak after the event was over on the 20th of January and spent hours of Fellowship with me because I had a long wait for that Amtrak back to Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, so he

01:27:12

He was a precious godsend to me and has become a friend and I look forward to many more opportunities

01:27:19

To fellowship with him, but that will be our final interview that we aired today after this

01:27:25

Final station break so don't go away. God willing. We are going to be right back after these messages from our sponsors

01:27:32

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Well, it's a $20 book a book that retails for $20 that you're getting for free if you purchase $50 or more worth of merchandise

01:34:55

So now we are back to our final interview of the day. It's not going to be our final g3 interview

01:35:01

We have more to come on future programs. Although when I sign out Or even when

01:35:07

I introduce my guest Michael Wachowski pastor of Westminster Chapel in Bull Ground, Georgia This was the final interview that we conducted at the g3 conference as people were actually tearing down The exhibitors booth and packing up ready to leave

01:35:28

That was our final interview, but we still have more to come. We just put this one in our

01:35:34

Lineup today because it fit time wise nicely into the program

01:35:41

So we had time to air it. So this is our interview with Michael Wachowski or Wachowski and keep in mind even though we say it's our final g3 interview we have more to come in future broadcasts and Let me introduce to you my dear brother in Christ and friend

01:36:00

Michael Wachowski of Westminster Chapel Chris aren't in here at the tail end of the g3 conference here in Atlanta Georgia, it has been such a blessing

01:36:11

I Can't even describe in the English language how much I have enjoyed being here this year

01:36:16

I enjoyed it last year but this year has been even more of a blessing and I am with right now as someone who actually

01:36:25

Became a friend last year who I providentially met here pastor Michael Wachowski And then did

01:36:36

I know that was good, you know There's cows key. There are various ways even among family members that it was

01:36:43

Chelsea. We shall ski. We shall ski Yeah, I think I put a K that didn't belong. No, that's right.

01:36:48

No, I had a teacher in school He used to call me when now ski it lasted the entire Semester and I just let it go, you know,

01:36:56

I want a good grade, but it happens all the time Pastor Michael Wachowski, who is the pastor of the

01:37:04

Westminster Chapel in ball? Ground, Georgia. Yeah, almost at ballpark.

01:37:09

Yeah full ground No, it's got it kind of sounds like you would say ballpark, but no ball ground.

01:37:15

That's right and it's he has been such a blessing to me because not only is he a wonderful brother in Christ who is

01:37:23

He wears his love for the Lord on his sleeve. It just like pours out of him

01:37:28

He is a very vibrant Individual and it is his joy in the

01:37:36

Lord is contagious when you're Fellowship being with brother Michael and he has been a godsend because here locally he has been my transportation to the train station

01:37:46

He has been somebody to fellowship with during long hours waiting for my my

01:37:52

Amtrak train back to Pennsylvania And so it's I'm so delighted that you are here again today brother and why don't you tell our listeners something about the

01:38:03

Westminster Chapel of Ballground, Georgia. Well, first of all, I just like to say the only reason that I offered to pick you up is because you were

01:38:10

From Pennsylvania and I figured you were a Steelers fan Once I found out different area. Well, once I found out you weren't

01:38:17

I decided that I'm never giving you a ride again Well, I remember

01:38:22

I'm a native of New Yorker, but I but I did before a Christian place bets on the

01:38:29

Steelers back in the 80s when they were on a Super Bowl Street smart man Terry Bradshaw was the

01:38:35

Quarterback back then. There you go. Well, yeah, I do a pastor a Westminster Chapel in ballground and You know, we're just this small church in in Small town about 70 people usually we have an attendance

01:38:50

Reformed we're not Affiliated with any specific denomination per se, but we do characterize ourself as Reformed heavily influenced by the

01:39:01

Confessions thoroughly biblical Passion to proclaim the

01:39:07

Word of God verse by verse through books of the Bible We're led by biblical elders deacons and just a real amazing plurality of gifted men and women that God has drawn to the church and we're

01:39:25

We're actually, you know, one thing I've noticed being a part of some of the bigger churches and of course, there's nothing wrong with with the big church, but Being a small church.

01:39:36

We're able to have a kind of family fellowship That I think a lot of the bigger churches don't really experience outside of small groups and things like that and So that's who we are.

01:39:49

We exist to preach the word and love people and Do ministry? Amen, and I know one of the things that is unique That you rarely see although it does exist such as I know that the

01:40:02

Free Presbyterian Church of North America Also their mother church the

01:40:09

Free Presbyterian Church in Ulster in Northern Ireland they have both those who believe in pedo -baptism and credo -baptism or credo -baptism or Those that believe in infant baptism and and those who believe in believer only baptism to put it in more

01:40:29

Understandable terms both involved in the same Congregation.

01:40:35

Yes, and that is the case with you. It was even the case with the late Peter Jeffrey who became a friend of mine from Port Talbot, Wales.

01:40:44

Yes, the congregation where he pastored Sandfields which was at one time the congregation where Martin Lloyd -Jones pastor.

01:40:53

Yes, they had both Presbyterians and Yeah, you know, it's a it's something that we prayed about a lot even now

01:41:01

We still pray about it. And and of course, you know, it's not a decision that every church is required to make

01:41:09

We just feel that we have such a deep appreciation for our Presbyterian brothers and our

01:41:15

Reformed Baptist brothers and you know, even the New Covenant guys that we wanted to create an environment and Have a church where both are welcome, you know

01:41:27

I've always found it interesting that some of my Reformed Baptist brothers

01:41:32

Will quote these guys like R .C. Sproul and Sinclair Ferguson and John Calvin They'll quote them and they'll recommend their books.

01:41:41

They'll recommend their works and and yet under that under their church government or under their church structure those same individuals wouldn't be able to Participate in the leadership of the church.

01:41:55

They wouldn't be able to teach Sunday school. They wouldn't in some cases they wouldn't even be able to be members and I've always been a little bit perplexed by that, but I do see also

01:42:06

I recognize That it's it's not necessarily Required by the

01:42:14

Bible and by virtue of the fact that you are an independent Autonomous congregation you are not

01:42:20

Presbyterian in your polity. No We're not we're not and and and of course Autonomous from from any any structure outside of scripture.

01:42:30

We do have of course a body of elders and deacons and we

01:42:35

Encourage one another to to have relationships with those outside of the body and accountability outside of the body

01:42:44

Just not necessarily official so Why don't you give our listeners a summary of what you've experienced at the g3 conference this year?

01:42:54

Yeah, it's been great It's been really good very similar to last year really solid speakers

01:43:01

Just really encouraged by some of the messages Derek Thomas had a great Message on Romans 12 1 through 2 that I appreciated having preached through Romans now

01:43:13

Two and a half years in and I was just recently preaching through that chapter

01:43:18

And so I just had a deep appreciation for some of the things that he was saying I had a the honor of once again interviewing him recently on iron trip design radio to promote the g3

01:43:28

Excellent. It was a great vodie. Bakum. He was very encouraging his message.

01:43:34

He's powerful Oh, well, just even the content just that Perseverance in ministry and enduring suffering

01:43:41

For as a young minister, it's just it's so important to hear that over and over again not just to endure suffering but to persevere in a way that you know, you don't give in to the pragmatism and the

01:43:55

Christianity light of our culture that is pervading the modern -day church.

01:44:01

It's it's such a temptation To do that and you know, you got these guys here at the g3 who time and time again are calling, you know young ministers old ministers to persevere and to Hold fast to the truth of sound doctrine and to to not give in to pragmatism to not give in to Ways of the of our culture the direction that we're headed

01:44:28

Yeah, I was so thrilled that I finally had the opportunity for the very first time to interview

01:44:33

Bodie He has been a very difficult person to hold of the interview, especially since he lives now in Zambia.

01:44:42

Yes Yes, where my dear friend since 1995 dr. Conrad M Bayway is the pastor?

01:44:48

yeah, but could walk to baptist church in Lusaka and One of the only thing that I regret was that when

01:44:56

I finally got a hold of When he got a hold of me actually Finally made his way to my booth both

01:45:03

Bodie and I were totally exhausted. So I had mercy on him and Kept the interview rather short.

01:45:11

I still have misgivings about because I really wanted to keep him here for 45 minutes

01:45:17

I didn't want him angry at me either. He is he looks like he could snap me in half with one hand

01:45:22

Even though I'm a fairly large Well, I got a funny story actually about that when

01:45:28

I was uh, I was a young younger teenager I Had gone to a conference in Kentucky I can't recall exactly what conference it was

01:45:38

But Bodie Bachum was there and I was just getting into some of his stuff just you know it's still in that, you know sort of dazzled by the superstars of Christianity phase and and and he was uh, he was there and he was kind of late setting up and he just got there and and You know,

01:46:01

I remember I was wearing, you know my my jeans with holes in them and and I had you know, my cool hipster outfit on and He had gotten there and and I said, hey body

01:46:11

Hey body. Can I get a picture? Hey body body and and finally he turned around he said it's voting

01:46:20

And wait a minute You know, he wasn't he wasn't being mean but it was it was just it was just too funny.

01:46:27

I'll never forget that After that, of course, he was pronounced it correctly He was gracious and of course we talked but I'll just never forget that.

01:46:36

You know, I was just so scared He's gonna break out his Brazilian Jiu -jitsu, that's right. He is a martial artist and in fact

01:46:44

I believe that that is the Specific type of martial art that Frank Mullis is involved in Yeah, just interviewed not long ago during the course of the stay here.

01:46:55

Excellent and Well as far as your your church's outreach to the local area of Ballground, Georgia and of course tell us exactly

01:47:09

Geographically where that is Yeah, I apologize if you've said it. No. No.

01:47:14

Yeah. No, it's uh It's it's I'm really really bad with directions and and maps and stuff like that But the people who live in this area, you know, it's it's in between Jasper and Canton It's right off exit 27 on five on 575 and as far as Outreach, I believe strongly in intentional evangelism.

01:47:42

I think that's one thing that the church has lost sight of You know, we strive to come up with all these crafty and clever ways to to reach

01:47:51

Yeah, you know and other names that are escaping me right now, which of course

01:47:57

There are elements of those things. Absolutely that are fine and good and actually we should be involved in some of the elements

01:48:04

Absolutely. There are virtues to just about every system that someone pushes as the evangelism system to go with You know, but but you know,

01:48:14

I think that one thing that's been neglected is just that concept of just intentional Evangelism with the gospel going out with the intention handing out tracks

01:48:24

Engaging people being honest about who we are. Look we're Christians with the gospel. I'm not going undercover

01:48:31

We're not you know sitting there and acting like, you know, we want to be best friends with this guy

01:48:36

When really, you know, we our aim is to reach in with the gospel and even street preaching, you know

01:48:41

There's been some street preachers here That I just so appreciate their their willingness to step out and to do that You know,

01:48:48

I I still do it occasionally but in preparation for the ministry. That was something that That was really instrumental in my life was just You know taking a couple of years and really focusing on preaching on the streets before I preach behind a pulpit and You know, so that's that's one way that I encourage our church our members

01:49:10

To be involved in the community is is yes, you know build relationships get out there

01:49:16

And and as a and as a congregation, of course, we we find ways to do that But but also just that intentional going out and proclaiming the gospel

01:49:28

I've been troubled by some friends and acquaintances who Have joyfully quoted and I can't remember the original source of this.

01:49:38

I don't know if it was Francis St. Francis of Assisi or someone I can't remember.

01:49:43

Maybe you maybe you know the source but And I am paraphrasing perhaps because I don't have it in front of me.

01:49:49

But the quote is Preach the gospel and if necessary use words bothers me greatly because If if that was the motto

01:50:03

Not only of Jesus Christ, but of his Apostles. None of them would have been martyred Well, you know what

01:50:11

I'll say that the only way that you can possibly do that is if you're really good with charades

01:50:16

All right, if you're really good, you know with miming things, you know charades, you know

01:50:21

Maybe you can maybe you can get the gospel across without words But I think they're the fundamental flaw in that is that it misses the reality that the gospel is actual news

01:50:32

It's it's if I can live the gospel out Then the then the message of the gospel is no longer the person and work of Christ It's it's the person and work of me.

01:50:44

I'm hoping that someone Somehow will make the connection that I'm a

01:50:50

Christian and I'm doing these things in the name of Jesus But even the problem with that is that the gospel emphasizes more than just a person

01:51:00

It emphasizes a specific message about the cross What Jesus did on the cross what you know, his substitutionary atonement is propitiating work his resurrection from the dead

01:51:14

Total depravity the fact that we're sinners in need of a Savior. These things cannot be communicated without words and That's that's connected with how we're equipping our people as pastors, you know

01:51:28

Are we are we feeding them this idea that you know? Just go out and be good people and be nice people and be tolerant people and hope that someone gleans the gospel from that I think that's just foolishness and I think that it's it's an excuse to Compromise the gospel to just kind of live like the world and do whatever you want and call it gospel

01:51:50

You know it's and and you see that in some of these groups to even you know Where you know, there's this emphasis on living the gospel

01:51:58

And so every single activity that the church does together whether it's poker night whether it's you know

01:52:05

Play in pool whether it's just hanging out it all it all becomes this, you know living the gospel

01:52:11

You know, no matter what I'm doing and I always tell tell people the church you can't live the gospel

01:52:17

You can live in light of the gospel You know, you can you can live in a way that That displays that you've been changed by the gospel, but you yourself, you know, you can't live the gospel

01:52:31

You can't be the gospel There's only one message of the gospel and it and it takes words.

01:52:37

In fact since some of my listeners may be more diligent to Use correct language.

01:52:46

I probably should clarify something that I said about our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ when

01:52:52

I Used him collectively as an illustration of martyrs just moments ago, obviously

01:52:59

Jesus Christ Voluntarily laid down his own life. Oh, yeah, and was the

01:53:05

Messiah and his death was a Orchestrated plan of God, so I don't want to give the opinion that I'm just counting him among other

01:53:20

Individuals who died for the faith. Absolutely. Absolutely Absolutely and I Want you to have five minutes uninterrupted to just summarize what you must want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners

01:53:34

Well, you would be better served by going and listening to some of the messages at the conference

01:53:39

I don't I don't have anything new or innovative Or you know anything original to say?

01:53:48

Probably that hasn't already been said throughout all these interviews But it being someone who believes in the inerrancy of Scripture and the sufficiency of Scripture.

01:53:54

I don't think that you need to say Absolutely. I think I think that You know just for all the young ministers one thing that I've been

01:54:05

Reminded about throughout this conference is our duty not to Think that you know, we need to be pragmatic to Think that we need to be innovative

01:54:17

Think that we need to be new and original But to preach the old gospel to preach the old old story of Jesus and his love to preach the word faithfully

01:54:31

And I you know, that's hard. That's costly in our generation There's there's such a pull on on the hearts of young Timothy's in our generation

01:54:42

Not just by by my generation, but even by the older generation, you know Who you know wants to reach the youth and and wants to you know, reach out to the to Millennials I think we just need to be so so cautious As as younger ministers to to be bound by the text of Scripture that we're preaching

01:55:03

To communicate to our people that the text is over us. We're not over the text

01:55:09

The text is over us and and it should be It should look to our congregation

01:55:15

Like we're not just making this stuff up like we're drawing it From the text and then that of course transfers into the way that not just we preach but the way that we lead the way that we

01:55:27

You know do counseling the way that we teach Bible studies during the week it should always

01:55:33

Seem to those that were leading to those that were Communicating truth to that we have a standard and that we're not that standard but that the

01:55:44

Bible is the standard and You know if we if we don't do that, you know, we may be able to come up with with some some some good psychology or Philosophy of ministry that that that attracts people but it's not going to be distinctively

01:56:01

Christian It's not going to turn people to the triune God and make them more dependent on him it's going to make them more dependent on us and so, you know as a young minister,

01:56:12

I just like to Give that word of encouragement and exhortation to other younger ministers and even even old ministers, you know, don't don't

01:56:22

Don't try to you know become this This millennial yourself, you know, who you know is just Obsessed with with reaching youth with a youth message preach preach the same message for the old for the young for every for everybody

01:56:39

You know, the gospel doesn't change. There's not a there's not a youth gospel a another gospel for the mature another gospel for The old it's it's what there's one gospel.

01:56:52

There's one Bible. There's one message of Jesus Christ we need to be faithful to that and that's

01:56:59

What I would say amen and before I have you give your contact information one thing that I probably should clarify since because of the unusual nature of your congregation being comprised of both pedo -baptists and credo or credo that this you are not expecting a an elder or deacon or anyone

01:57:23

In the church to violate their conscience and baptize an infant if that is not as conviction

01:57:29

Absolutely not and that and that's the beauty of having A plurality of elders and deacons it in a church like that Is there going to find people who are able to do to do both without violating their conscience?

01:57:43

And so that's a great point. Very very good point We never want to go against conscience never want to go against, you know

01:57:51

What we firmly believe the scriptures teach, you know, I have strong beliefs about the issue myself

01:57:58

But I just want to remain consistent with my our

01:58:04

Constitution and Philosophy of ministry that I believe the Bible teaches with in matters like these and if you could let our listeners know how they can

01:58:12

Get in contact. Yeah, my we have a website Westminster Chapel net and my

01:58:19

Personal information is on there my email you can go to contact us and and it's just right under there my email address and That's pretty much the main means of communication that we have if you want to listen to sermons we post most of the sermons online to so You know, you can get in touch with us that way and check us out and see if worth it

01:58:43

Well, we are one of the very few booths still operating right now most the vast majority of the exhibitors booth have already

01:58:55

Torn that been torn down, of course by those operating them So it's a hint for us to get

01:59:04

Prepared to leave the g3 conference here in Atlanta, Georgia, and I'm looking forward to spending some time this afternoon

01:59:10

With pastor Michael here and breaking bread with him and I hope that you all enjoyed hearing the interviews that I conducted here on site and I hope that Many of you who have not been to the g3 conference will make a vested

01:59:29

Effort to be here next year if nothing providentially hinders you and this is

01:59:35

Chris Arnson of iron sharpens iron radio Reminding you all to never forget for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater