February 12, 2018 Show with Interviews from the 2018 G3 Conference Part 5: Tom Buck & Michael Wieszchowski

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron so one

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear

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Good afternoon.

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania,.

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This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 12th day

of February 2018, only two days away from the birthday of

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in unmarked bills and I look forward to receiving that money for my birthday to

help Iron Sharpens Iron remain on the air and today we are going to be

continuing our series of on -site interviews or

playing I should say our series of on -site interviews that were conducted in

January at the G3 conference right there in the exhibitors booth

hall where I had an exhibitors booth for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and

it was such a joy and a blessing and a delight to be there and I look forward, God willing, to returning

for the 2019 G3 conference in Atlanta Georgia next year but

without further ado I am now going to start to play some of those

interviews at least two of them that were conducted on -site and and keep in mind those of you who

are listening perhaps that were interviewed at G3 conference at the G3 conference and you have not yet heard your interview.

I intend to eventually play all of them so keep your eyes and ears open

for future broadcasts where I will continue airing the G3 interviews but today

we are going to begin with the interview I conducted with Tom Buck and I hope you enjoy it

just as much as I did here is part one of three parts of the Tom Buck interview

this is Chris Ornson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio again a live on -site at the

G3 conference in Atlanta Georgia.

In fact I keep saying live on set I guess it wouldn't be live for those listening over the airwaves

at the moment they're hearing me speaking because this is being pre -recorded for a future

date so perhaps that's an inappropriate use of language but I am on -site

at the G3 conference and it's been such a joy to

not only meet so many people even more than last year people I've never seen

before in my life who have told me that they have been listening to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and loving it

and people of all skin colors and backgrounds

and geographic locations and it's just been blowing me away and humbling to see how many

people have been blessed by what we do here on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio but I'm so glad

to be interviewing right now somebody that my dear friend of many years Dr. James R. White of Alpha

Omega Ministries has spoke very fondly of for quite a while.

His name is Tom Buck and he is the pastor of First Baptist Church in Windale Texas

and he is in attendance here at the G3 conference and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for

the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pastor Tom Buck.

Well thank you it's an honor to be with you today.

Well tell us first of all.

Something about First Baptist Church of Windale Texas.

Well our church is located in East Texas about an hour east of Dallas.

I've been the pastor there senior pastor for 12 years.

It is established church since about 1887 so a

long -standing church and just thankful for the opportunity the impact that we

have in that area we're focusing on building a solid church on the Word

of God and also helping to equip other pastors in the area in building healthy

churches so that's kind of our vision both inwardly and outwardly in the community.

Now how would you.

Describe your church theologically and any any way else that you'd care to describe it?

Well I.

Would say we're Southern Baptist Church so it has been Southern Baptist not its entire

history it was actually a Baptist Missionary Alliance BMA prior to becoming Southern

Baptist about 75 years.

Ago.

I don't even think I'm familiar with that denomination or that fellowship of Baptists.

It's.

A smaller group that's mainly located in Arkansas, Louisiana, and Texas but a very

solid theological group as well they're reformed.

Their seminary is located in Jacksonville Seminary one of their seminaries also in Little Rock Arkansas

and our church would be considered to be reformed

in its doctrine specifically soteriologically

and Southern Baptist as well so we're aligned with the Founders Movement in the Southern Baptist

Convention, Nine Marks -ish in the sense of helping churches.

Dr. Tom Askell is a good friend of mine has been on my program many times and I'm looking forward to interviewing him at some point

before I leave Atlanta because I know he's here.

And well one of the things that I like to do when I especially when I interview

somebody for the first time.

I'd like you to give a summary of your testimony of salvation about the

kind of religious atmosphere if any you were raised in what the providential

circumstances that the Lord used to draw you to himself and also

how you came to embrace the doctrines of sovereign grace which may have been simultaneous with your

salvation experience.

But perhaps they're not.

They weren't with me.

Tell us.

Something about that.

It certainly wasn't with me either.

I grew up in a Southern Baptist Church in East Tennessee and that was in

the late 60s early 70s so that was the time when the

Southern Baptist Convention was in quite a bit of turmoil regarding its theological convictions

coming out of the seminary.

So my pastor was quite liberal and I didn't know that

until later on.

But he was.

He preached from the Bible.

But he didn't preach the Bible.

But I'm thankful that I in other words he read the words but then reinterpreted them.

I was involved in eisegesis absolutely.

I remember one sermon in particular that he preached regarding the demoniac when Jesus encountered

and when Jesus asked his name of course the demon spoke Elysian which

means one of many.

And the pastor who denied he didn't believe in miracles and didn't believe in the spiritual world saw the man

answering that and saying that he had kind of lost his identity in the world and he was just one of many

people and forgotten his own name.

So that's I mean that's still in my memory.

Interestingly enough from when I was probably about seven or eight years old.

So I came to know the Lord though.

Because I was raised my parents were believers and my mom constantly

shared the gospel with me.

But later on as I would I realized that that my pastor probably

about interesting enough about eight or nine years old I realized that my pastor wasn't preaching

what was in the Bible.

He would read and say something else and I would ask my parents about that.

I began listening to WMBI out of Chattanooga and listening to the pastors preach

the Bible in a very different way and I had decided that I wanted to go to

Moody Bible Institute.

I went there and that's where I was introduced to the doctrines of grace of which I immediately

was repulsed by what I heard at Moody Bible Institute.

Yes you were introduced to the doctrines of grace there because it's not really known for being at least a

thoroughly reformed Institute for higher education.

Well I was introduced to four points.

Calvinist with the lists at least as I said to up instead of tulip as we would call them.

But dr. Marvin Mayer he's still alive today and taught me the Word of God and and it didn't

take me long though to be convinced because as soon as I went back and

wrestled with what the text said and he I was taking him for the book of Romans.

It was as clear as could be to me although I had been raised completely opposite.

So I immediately saw what the Word of God was saying and was ecstatic to see

that you know here's this is truth.

And so I repulsed at the beginning but very quickly embraced it and went back home to my home

church and and had interesting discussions will say with my pastor who

was quite concerned that I had been taken over by the dark side.

Of course.

Erwin Lutzer's a thorough going Calvinist from what I understand.

Yes.

And so while I was in Bible callers there at Moody that's where I attended church love to

hear Erwin Lutzer unpack the word.

He was an expositor.

For sure.

Yes.

For sure.

And that's where I came to fall in love with the handling of God's Word in an

expositional manner and I went on to Dallas Seminary so I did the full dispensational

route and then decided that I wanted to go and

begin what I called at that time and there it's kind of popular now.

But it's been 25 years ago revitalizing churches.

I want to go into a church that had just died not in the sense of just its

effectiveness and began to just preach the Word of God I went to Florida and was there for 12 years and the Lord was

gracious and blessing that.

And now I'm in East Texas so I've been in two churches both for 12 years.

Yes in fact when.

Your or our mutual friend dr. James are white wrote the book the Potter's Freedom.

Erwin Lutzer was very enthusiastic and excited to write an endorsement for it which

he did and he was in a panic that he might not

make the deadline but he God thanks be to God was able to get his his endorsement

in his commendation for the book before it went to print so that that commendation is still

in the current edition of that.

What can you tell our listeners about what it is like

being a pastor of a sovereign grace -believing church in what is known as the

Bible Belt.

In fact even you could even make it a broader issue as well

being a person who I'm assuming if you are a reformed church that you

believe in a regenerate membership and the Southern

Baptist Convention as every single Calvinist I know in the Southern Baptist Convention has

freely admitted to me you have scores of churches where

the credibility of conversion of multitudes in those congregations especially

the very enormous ones is very doubtful.

At times in fact I can still remember speaking to an old preacher

Mississippi years ago when I told him I was from New York he said

well you guys in New York you get it easy.

All you got to do is get people saved.

We got to get them lost then get them saved.

Now he was reformed so obviously he didn't believe that anybody any human gets anybody saved but

it was the way it was just a quaint way of speaking about evangelism and the fact that

in the Bible Belt people most people think that they're Christians just because they're

from.

Baptist or Pentecostal or some kind of evangelical background.

Absolutely.

In fact that's one of the reasons I originally went to Florida because I had grown up in that cultural Christianity and I

was actually repulsed by that and I just said I'm not gonna I don't want to go into that I would

rather go into southern Florida where a lot of people were moving down from New York and Boston in

those areas and just it was very different interacting with those individuals who were fine to tell you that

they were lost and didn't care one bit to claim that they had no religious affiliation

but the Lord worked in certain ways and this opportunity opened up

to go to First Baptist and I found that it was going to be a different challenge in one sense of where I was

in in southern Florida and going to the cultural Christianity that was there in East Texas very much

like where I came from in East Tennessee I the church it was very different

than the church I went to in Florida that we had 50 people now I was going to a church that had

attendance of about seven to eight hundred with over two thousand members

and that was going to be a challenge.

I was thankful that and the reason I went there was very open.

I think that one of the things that happens often in the Southern Baptist Convention is I have found that there are some guys who aren't really

open and honest up front about where they are in their doctrine.

I was very open and honest the pulpit committee as they talked with me that's what they wanted so it meant made made it easy

in that sense but I shared with them that it it was gonna be a long road because you can't go in and bring the kind of

reform that needs to take place overnight and so one of the things I would say is that

as guys go into the Bible belt pastors they need to have a patience patience of

Job so to speak that they're willing to take the time that it's going to take

to make the changes that need to be made.

The churches don't become unhealthy overnight.

They certainly don't become healthy even at this as fast as they become unhealthy.

So we we began just preaching the word but one of the first things we

addressed was on was regenerate membership and rather than just

wiping the rolls clean we felt we had a responsibility and this is what I shared with

the church that we have a responsibility.

We at one time took these individuals whether we did it flippantly or not we

took them into the care of this church and we are to be shepherding them.

We are the ones are at fault for allowing them to drift away from the church.

They certainly have a responsibility.

It is the responsibility of that individual Christian to stay connected.

But the church had allowed these people to disconnect themselves and had done nothing to

that I'm aware of to have pursued after them and so we spent two years.

I was probably there a year or two before we began this but we spent two years of working it caught to try

to contact each and every person that was no longer connected to

the church was on the membership rules and we began with the approach that we failed you.

The biblical role of the church is to love and care for its flock.

We haven't done that and we began to reach out to them visit each home that we went to try to

visit each home.

Many of them we couldn't find but we took a two -year painstaking effort to locate them and

then after we had recovered a very very few minuscule amount of 2 ,000 maybe two maybe two

or three four people we began to take to the church

those whom are unwilling to come back and begin the process of removing them from the membership of the

church.

But we tried to do it in the most loving and caring way we can.

I think pastors need to do that and not go to the extreme of just come in and begin to wipe out the

rules and begin over again.

Now to those people who were being removed react to that.

What's kind of interesting one couple that we went and visited sweet dear couple

and they said we we're really busy.

We worked a lot we have our own business and we don't.

We're not probably going to be coming but we don't want to be taken off the rolls and

we lovingly said that's not the path that we would take forward.

We went to the church we removed them from the rules.

Two weeks later they come they're in church and they come up and they say this

is not what we want.

That was four years ago and they haven't missed church since.

Wow they came and rejoined the fellowship.

Now that's one couple out of the myriad.

Some of them got very angry so they even give a reason they had just

fallen out of the habit.

And what I mean is do they give a reason why they're angry.

No they they would call us

judgmental.

I think for so many the reason I say it's the fault of the church for some so much as we we

took lightly them coming in.

So what's the big deal if they're not around.

So I think churches one of the things they must do is have a more careful process of

how you allow members to come into the church so that they understand the gravity of what it means to be a member.

So it is odd when you say why are you removing me.

You haven't cared for 20 years.

Why do you care all of a sudden.

So I think their anger was probably out of just not understanding on many levels and some of them probably weren't

believers and they had made a profession got baptized became a member and they may have not come

back at another day.

Which was my experience growing up in my churches in East Tennessee.

Now is the First Baptist Church of Lindale confessional.

No.

Well we are in one sense we are in the sense that we hold to the Baptist faith and message

but we're not at the point where we have you know kind of reformed to that degree.

I think that is when you're bringing change about in the church.

I think you have to begin to say what are the most important things I need to deal with right now.

What hills do I need to die.

Yeah I'd be willing to die and I've even taken it in this kind of analogy if a doctor goes in

he may have three different patients that all need the same surgery but they have various other

things that might be wrong with him and he has to determine what do I treat first.

What risks am I going to take if a surgery is needed to take place this patient I'm going to rush him in this patient.

I've got to get these other things under control first.

So I think that takes great wisdom and patience as you work with the church.

So we just adopted a church covenant in the last two years.

The reason we were did not adopt that church coming to the last two years is because one of

the things in the church covenant dealt directly with that.

If you participated in any level of alcohol you could not be a member of the church and

I am personally a teetotaler.

But I wanted I felt like the church need to understand.

We should not bind the consciences of our people with anything God's Word doesn't.

So we're gonna say we believe the word but then bind their conscience with something extra biblical.

That's not right.

But our church was not ready for that.

So it was better to not use a church covenant.

For example until the church was ready to make that change.

When we made the change we had a hundred percent vote to not include that language and have

a covenant that was was different than that.

So that's just one example.

It's kind of interesting how one would.

Have a mindset where we don't want people in the church that ever drink at all

any amount of alcohol but as if they stay away from the church they can still be

members.

Does your.

As far as being in a church or pastoring a church that is theologically

reformed what is the reaction then to what you believe and the way you

preach and teach and disciple from Christianity or Christendom in the surrounding area

of that.

Lyndale Texas.

Vicinity.

Well of course we've had some folks who have rejected that and have left our church.

I believe you attract who you are so when you preach the word it

becomes clear.

I'm not one who speaks of terms like Calvinism.

I don't wear my reform points upon my sleeve but I preach the text

and I don't shy away from what the text says.

So it's.

I'm.

I know I'm clear enough because I get in enough debates that people come after up after a sermon to know that.

I've been clear about what I believe.

But the good thing is is that there are some folks in our church who are diametrically opposed

to some of these things but yet they remain.

They know that I'm preaching the word.

They remain faithful to the church.

We have some good interaction sometimes strong.

I wouldn't even I wouldn't use the word heated but strong debate.

But they have stayed and they are not disgruntled.

I think sometimes they're disturbed by certain things are said.

We have interaction with that.

So we've had classes of people.

We've drawn people that are committed.

We've we've kept people who are or maybe somewhat objection objecting to certain things.

We've lost some people.

And then you also draw sometimes the people that are the cage stagers and

and they don't think I'm reformed enough.

So you get it all across the spectrum.

Now.

I don't know how you know thoroughly studied you.

Are about the history of the Southern Baptist Convention and about the South in general

but it seems interesting that in the 21st century

of course Calvinism is a minority everywhere perhaps except Grand Rapids

Michigan but it's especially rare and a minority

view in the South and yet the Southern Baptist Convention began

completely by Calvinistic pastors.

Do you have any idea what happened to reverse the situation where you have now

Calvinists in the Southern Baptist Convention who are a tiny minority and in some cases are even

vilified and condemned and there are warnings being sounded

against them by the majority who are calling themselves traditionalists who are

not Calvinist.

How did we reach that point.

And how can there be such universal ignorance about the.

Calvinistic roots of this denomination.

Well I think that you begin to see the

movement away from strong reform soteriology at

least around 1925 with the Southern Baptist

Statement of Faith.

Then they were wanting to they began even then watering down the language

even of the New Hampshire Confession which itself was somewhat of a watering down of the language

and so you begin to see that drift take place.

And I think that I know this is going to sound

probably by those who are on the side and say that this that's arrogant but the convention drifted away

from that theological position and we also see it drift away into what it became in the 70s

60s and 70s.

Which liberal denomination.

Yeah now the moment you say that the other side cries that you know that you know that that's arrogant to

say that Calvinism is what keeps you there.

I don't think Calvinism keeps you anywhere.

I don't think reform theology sir necessarily keeps you anywhere but here's the thing that's tied to it when you

preach the scriptures and you preach them clearly in an expositional manner of what

is the text saying that is the key I think to bringing about

those who come to understand the doctrines of reform theology or Calvinism because it's

clearly in the Word of God and so I credit the drift in the convention to the failure

to of the preaching in the pulpit.

You have W .A. Criswell he was an expositor now he wasn't as strong of a Calvinist as some Calvinists are

today in the convention but he was much more Calvinist than he was what other people try to paint him out to be.

And what was he.

He he wasn't you know the quintessential expositor but he certainly was an expositor

and so for me as we preach the Word of God I think that's what's called the Revivalization.

This in in the Southern Baptist Convention.

Now those who oppose it I have dear friends that opposed that opposed reform theology in the

convention and I love them they're they're godly men

intelligent men.

But I think there's a disconnect where they somehow believe

that these doctrines are a threat to evangelism and Southern Baptists have always been praise God

committed to want to evangelize.

I think that committed to a to some faults that they commit in order to get

people to respond because we push those baptism numbers and that makes us

you know feel good that people are being reached and so I think they have a false connection there as well that a baptism means

somebody got saved when we both know that that's not always the case so

I believe that's where the disconnect comes is they just can't they believe that this is going to destroy missions that

Calvinists don't care about evangelism.

And one of the reasons they point to is take for example my church it's been said

he took the church of two over 2 ,000 and now it's down to 850.

No I didn't I took a church of 850 and exposed that they had fake

numbers.

We're gonna be continuing with the Tom Buck interview after these messages from our

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And now we are going to continue airing our on -site interviews

at the G3 conference.

This is the second of three parts with Tom Buck and.

But please sit back relax and.

Enjoy this wonderful interview.

And Southern Baptists have always been, praise God, committed to want to evangelize.

I think that committed to some faults that they commit in order to get

people to respond because we push those baptism numbers and that makes us you

know feel good that people are being reached and so I think they have a false connection there as well that a baptism means

somebody got saved when we both know that that's not always the case.

So I believe that's where the disconnect comes is they just can't they believe that this is going to destroy missions

that Calvinists don't care about evangelism and one of the reasons they point to is

take for example my church it's been said he took the church of over 2 ,000 and now it's

down to 850.

No I didn't.

I took a church of 850 and exposed that they had fake numbers.

Can your church building even hold 2 ,000 people?

No.

I inherited this but we have to have two services to hold the number we have so we

would have to have four services to hold 2 ,000.

So it's not like you have dozens and.

Dozens of empty pews.

You would have had them anyway if these people were absentee members of the church but it's a ridiculous

charge because you were just as you said exposing.

That those people weren't truly members.

We also have fewer baptisms compared to many of the other churches but I you know I had a pastor

tell me just the other day that they run on

Sundays 300 or so they've ran that for a long time and that this last year they had 200 saved.

Well why aren't you running 500?

You ran 300 last year, 300 this year, 200 got saved.

Now that many people didn't relocate it's because we are satisfied

sadly with evangelism that calls people to a decision but does not call

them to repentance and faith and discipleship.

One thing that I have heard.

From Southern Baptist brethren who are believers in the doctrines of grace very strongly

Reformed or Calvinistic.

Soteriologically it's ironic that the charge that you mentioned is

so common that Calvinism kills evangelism.

And yet from what I've heard from Southern Baptists about

the mission field is that you will have people who are non

-Calvinists who are far less persistent and patient

and persevering in evangelism.

They and the those especially those on mission boards who uproot people if they don't think

that there is quick enough numeric growth in decisions

for Christ and they'll pull them away from that area.

And and it seems to me that if you really believed that

God you know will bring his people from out of every tribe and tongue and

people a nation that you would be more patient and more persistent and to linger in areas longer

even when there is not.

Very quick fruit or fruit bearing very quickly.

I agree and I think I think it was Piper that said it that Calvinism is the

hope of missions that we can know it's the fuel for that that we can know that

God has a people and it allows us I think to continue to be persistent

to realize that it's up to God to bring about the growth.

And if I go in thinking here am I and I'm gonna say this quotations around it

so I don't mean this to be insulting but my five gimmicks or my five you know plans or

whatever it may be that I've used everywhere else.

And if I go in and those things don't work I move on to somewhere else.

That's what I've seen as a pattern even among pastors in churches in America they go in they have a five -year

plan.

It either works or it doesn't work.

If it doesn't grow I move on to the next place.

Whereas if we're really going to build healthy churches and have healthy missions we need the mindset

that we have a promise from God that he is going to come now.

He may not do it with my particular ministry and in my particular lifetime.

But my call is to be faithful and I can go in with the confidence and continue to serve there knowing

that God is going to accomplish his goal he's going to accomplish drawing people into his kingdom.

That's what keeps me going.

Or there would be many times I'd pack my bags and move on to the next town.

I'm gonna say something I'm gonna ask you about something that is I have to be very careful the way I word my

sentences especially in a day and age of hypersensitivity

and I hope that people don't misunderstand what I'm saying.

But I have been a witness to things

lately that some of your Southern Baptist brethren have been participating in

that reveal such a desire

and I think it has a right motive in a right desire to erase the

horrible stereotype and actual horrible

stain of a history that has involved the sin of racism.

And it has been a real sin that has existed amongst Southern Baptists.

And basically it's existed amongst all humans in one level or another for one

reason or another.

I mean you have all kinds of people who are the same ethnic background

who despise those who are from a different region of the country

that you know speaks the same language they do and so on.

I mean I know I have met and spoken firsthand with

Puerto Ricans who are very bigoted against Mexicans and South Americans and I've spoken with

South Americans who despise Puerto Ricans.

And you could go on and on and on.

So the white race is not the only people group that have been guilty of the sin as

as many especially liberals would have the world believe but this is a long way of saying that

I am concerned about some Southern Baptists who so much want to

apologize for the sins of the past of the denomination that they are

overlooking theological aberrancies by believed by

those who are black or by those who are

known for being involved in civil rights groups and activities and so

on if it concerns me that there are some who are so

desperate to be welcomed as those who do not personally possess

the sin of racism that they may overlook sins that are equally

as damning.

Am I making any sense here.

No you're making sense.

Completely I mean I've been having this conversation with a variety of pastor friends of mine within the

Southern Baptist Convention and might I say that the conversations are not exclusively with white people.

I'm having these conversations with people of various different color and one of the

things is that is painted is that as if all

black Christians agree on this issue they don't and they don't the ones

who are in the camp of saying that we that there is a need to

figure out a way to forever cleanse the stain there those who don't

agree with that that are black are not given the same voice that at least even they say that

as those who are on the side so there seems to be a one -sided conversation.

That's what deeply concerns me.

I have pastor friends and I'm one of them so I'll be honest even saying it here that we're sometimes afraid that we are

afraid to talk about it because the moment we talk about it it's

almost as if there is the thought that well then you're racist.

I do believe that I need to listen to my black brothers and sisters and you're right there's

Hispanic there's issues of racism

towards not just black people but other races as well.

But let's just talk about the black I I do agree that I need to listen to my black brothers and sisters to

understand their experience to understand that they may have experienced something very different in my worldview and I don't

understand what they're feeling what they've been through what all of those things.

But I would say yes that you need to listen to not just the voices that are over here in the side that say

there is systemic racism but listen to the voices of black men and women who say that's not my

experience.

So to say that the experience of all black Christians are the same is is absolutely

demeaning to you the word that has been used with me by black brothers and sisters in Christ that have not experienced that.

So if we're going to listen listen listen to everybody we're gonna have a conversation let's have a conversation with everyone.

But it has come to the point that as long as you have a certain

position then other things can be ignored.

I have asked some questions even with the ERLC regarding the upcoming

Martin Luther King 50th anniversary I have a very nuanced position on that.

My nuanced position is this.

I am thankful for how God used Martin Luther King in his sovereign plan

in the history of this nation to deal with the blight that was upon this nation.

Regarding the racism that it infiltrated the south in particular but was in the north

as well but particularly in the south and that there are deep wounds

deep wounds with our brothers and sisters many of them of what took place this is not just with slavery

that might be their grandfather great -grandfather great -great -grandfather this is grandfather that's still

alive that experienced this and if we are insensitive to them that is is

horrific and not godly.

So I'm thankful for what God used Martin Luther King on the other side I don't understand how you

say we can elevate him to say as as a good

pastor when he denied some essential essential

theological doctrines that are not outer concentric circle issues but our

core issues of the bodily resurrection issues of the deity of Christ issues of the virgin birth

the very things that we fought in the resurgence of the Southern

Rabbis Convention against the liberals he held of those positions.

Now we certainly don't need to throw Martin Luther King to the side and say well he can't be honored because of his

whatever other sins that are out there that are talked about.

But why can't we not say have a nuanced position.

It'd be okay but it is not received well when I've asked those questions it what comes

back is well you just want to throw him out.

You're just a racist.

No not at all.

I don't understand the maybe I don't understand because I come from a privileged background set

maybe that's true and I don't know it but I can't have the conversation and even feel comfortable asking

some of the questions that I want to ask to better understand because it's not being allowed.

So I have grave concerns I really do.

Yeah when you start thinking that way that you have to overlook

heresy because of the way a person may have been treated

by the very just because of the very nature of the color of their skin

you you're treading in dangerous waters to saying that people who have been

victims were persecuted genuinely.

I'm not saying that that especially in the era of the civil rights

movement there were lynchings and there were all kinds of horrible things going on regularly.

Not that they'd never happen today but they were regularly going on and of course dr. King was

assassinated.

But to say that just because someone is a member of a group whether it be this

the color of one's skin or any kind of ethnic

community that they may be a part of that is just opening up a exploding open

a dam of heresies that could just be flooded into the church even more

than exists now in the areas where for by the grace of God it has

been prevented from coming in.

But we're seeing more and more compromise in churches and seminaries identifying

themselves as reformed as it is and this is just another way of compromise

just because people have been mistreated that they seem to have a a

license to hold to things that we have always considered as reformed Christians

damning.

They have a right to believe these things and we it is our duty to overlook those things

because we can't.

Remove heroes from people.

Absolutely unless they were considered a racist at one time.

So if it's a person that had racism in their background we can tear down their statues.

We can remove everything about them.

We can.

That's all that they're categorized as.

And so racism has been raised to the level as the almost the unpardonable sin.

And the interesting thing about it.

And of course it's wicked it's wicked.

It's vile.

It's damning.

It is.

It's damning to hell anyone that anyone that is a

racist who condones his racism.

Right.

But here's the thing the same people we're talking about will tell us that with homosexuality

that people can struggle with that their whole lives and we continue to love them and preach the God's grace to them.

And they'll still go to heaven even and I'm not saying they won't because I believe that people can struggle with that.

So they'll say that someone can marry to name any sin even even as we're having the debate about

transgender.

That we should welcome those in our church because they may struggle with that.

And we need to give them the gospel.

You and I both would agree on that.

They may struggle with that their whole.

Lives.

Obviously there are certain individuals obviously that if they're still

involved in a sin we wouldn't invite them into membership but they may

attend our services and hear the preaching.

Of the gospel.

Correct.

So what I'm saying is a meaning to say is that they will look at those individuals

and say they may struggle with those type of things in their life and still be a believer.

But racism.

You must completely never struggle with that again.

You must never have an issue with that.

You must renounce it once and for all at the at the altar or you're not saved.

I think sin is in the hearts of all of us.

We all are battling and fighting against it.

If we're true believers we are working to mortify our sin.

We are not in any way labeling ourselves.

I mean we have people saying labeling themselves very freely to say that I have same -sex

attraction.

I struggle with it but I don't act on it.

Imagine if I began to say I want everybody to know I struggle with racism internally but I never act on it.

So that's my point.

There's an unbelievable attack upon this particular sin that is so different

from every other sin.

There's a lot of things they're troubling me in this issue with the Southern Baptist Convention.

Well we're going to go to our.

Midway break right now it's a longer break than normal because of our

friends at grace life radio requiring that we have a longer break between our 254

minute segments.

So I hope you that you are patient with us as we go to this break and we'll be right back at willing right after these messages with

more of the on -site g3 conference interviews from g3 2018 this

past January in Atlanta Georgia.

And we have one more of those g3 conference interviews or one more segment

I should say of our Tom Buck interview and don't go away.

God willing we're gonna be right back after these.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arns.

And before we start airing the third part of the third of three

parts of our interview with Tom Buck that was conducted

on site at the G3 conference in January of 2018 at

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Last but not least, the spirit of the age and the age of the spirit is the theme of the

Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology coming up at two different places, even though it's called the

Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology, just to have a connection with that historical conference

that began with Dr. James Montgomery Boyce at 10th Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia,

Pennsylvania.

There are two locations where this conference is being held this year.

The first is the First Christian Reform Church of Byron Center, Michigan,

April 13th through the 15th.

The second, April 27th through the 28th, is at the Proclamation Presbyterian Church in

Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania.

And the plenary speakers include Daniel Aiken, Richard

Gaffin, Daniel Hyde, Conrad M. Bayway, one of my favorite preachers of all time, and

Richard Phillips.

Workshop speakers include Jonathan Master, David Murray, and Scott Oliphant.

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Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And now we are returning to part three of three of the

interview that we conducted with Tom Buck on -site at the G3 conference.

I hope that you enjoy this interview with Tom Buck.

What a precious brother in Christ he is, and I enjoyed interviewing him very, very much,

so I hope you enjoy it just as much.

And Tom Buck, I am certainly going to try my best to get him back on

Iron Sharpens Iron very soon, because I just loved interviewing him.

I think sin is in the hearts of all of us.

We all are battling and fighting against it.

If we're true believers, we are working to mortify our sin.

We are not in any way labeling ourselves.

We have people labeling themselves very freely to say that I have same -sex

attraction.

I struggle with it, but I don't act on it.

Imagine if I began to say, I want everybody to know.

I struggle with racism internally, but I never act on it.

So that's my point.

There's an unbelievable attack upon this particular sin that is so different

from every other sin.

There's a lot of things that are troubling me in this issue with the Southern Baptist Convention.

And I am wondering.

What may develop in the years ahead of us, because there are

different philosophies amongst leftists that divide them.

And sometimes, we have even been seeing in the news lately, how

feminism may trump the...

I'm trying to use a correct phrase here.

Let me reverse the way I'm saying it.

Misogyny, or perceived misogyny,

the view of belittling women in any way, that seems to be

trumping the race issue.

You seem to be seeing, or not even seem to, you are seeing

celebrities who are black being accused right alongside with white people

for being involved in

unwelcomed sexual behavior towards women.

And one must wonder, all these heroes that the

has wanted for many years to uphold as

pillars of decent, moral, American

society, that when are they going to be toppled?

Because we find out things that they viewed, or

we find out how they viewed women in certain areas.

Like you could even go back to some of the heroes that we hear about during

Black History Month.

And I'm not saying that we shouldn't hear about them.

But especially when you're talking about the 18th and 19th century, how did the average

black man view women then?

I mean, you may have leftist feminists finding out

things about these men that we are all supposed to be viewing as heroes.

And some of them, or many of them, if not most of them, rightly so.

And yet they will be robbed of their position in history, perhaps, if the feminist card.

Trumps the race card.

Do you understand what I'm saying?

Absolutely.

I think that the whole hero mentality

is faulty anyway.

We just, as a church, need to be preaching the gospel.

In some ways, I could care less whether a statue of anybody goes up or comes down from our American culture.

But, in fact, I don't understand why pastors get involved at all on either

side of that.

On the monument issue.

Yeah.

Whoever it's to.

And I'm speaking regarding heroes that we have.

I think, let the church get back to just preaching the word of God, addressing all sin,

and quit allowing the ebb and flow of the culture to drive what we're trying to

do in our churches in the pulpit.

Because the sin of today, or of yesterday, which was heavily racism, as you said, now is moving

towards misogyny in our culture.

It's always going to be something new.

Because the culture is always trying to make itself look moral and deal with the issues that they think are

important in the day.

And the church is always trying to catch up.

And that's what we'll forever be doing.

To be relevant in the culture today.

Let's just preach the word.

Let's just win people to Christ and be focused on building churches

that will have an answer for today and tomorrow and a hundred years from now,.

Barring the Lord's return.

Now, I could be wrong, but I'm assuming that you are not completely opposed

to Christians having heroes, as long as we don't turn them into idols.

I mean, I have heroes like Charles Spurgeon and even R .C. Sproul and even James White, a living hero.

And I think that there's nothing wrong with emulating people for

admirable actions and character traits that they possess that we should learn from without

going to the extreme of holding them up as idols and overlooking anything

at all where they were flawed.

I mean, what do you think about what I just said?

I agree wholeheartedly.

So if I look at someone like, someone wanted to debate me the other day that Jonathan Edwards was a slaveholder and that he

promoted human slavery.

Obviously, I have not looked enough into what his writings are on that.

But let's just, I'll assume that what they were saying they supported for sake of argument is true.

Obviously, I wouldn't condone that.

But that doesn't mean that I then have to absolutely consider him to be

a wretch because of his being wrong in that particular area.

I certainly do not want to be judged a hundred years from now by the same standard that we are judging

our former leaders in the way that they're doing this, that everything is

dismissed.

If you knew everything that I've struggled with in my life, in everything in my heart, and vice versa,

we would probably be repulsed to sit with one another because all of us

have thoughts, sinful thoughts in our mind, things that we're battling, whatever it may be, to mortify in our life.

The question is, I don't want to be defined by the worst things

that I've ever done.

I want to be defined as my collective whole.

And that just.

Doesn't seem to be taking place today.

And some of the things that men who were men of

their times said and wrote that are very

unfortunate, we could even go back to Martin Luther, the things that he wrote toward the end of his life about the Jews and so

on.

That was not the focal point of their lives

that dominated their ministries or what they wrote about.

I mean, there is a big difference between somebody who is driven in

most of what they do by the sin of racism, like somebody we're not going to obviously

uphold as a hero of the faith somebody who was a member of the Ku Klux Klan or a

grand dragon of the Ku Klux Klan, who might happen to have written something that was

theologically accurate or what have you, not that I even know of one that exists, a book or

something of that nature from somebody in that organization.

But my point is, Jonathan Edwards' mission in life was not to

uphold the myth of white supremacy.

That's not what he exhausted himself.

Writing about and preaching about.

I have his collected works and not just the small two volume, but the Yale volume, and I've read 70

percent of it.

I haven't come across anything yet that would cause me to think that he promoted anything

of white racism or supremacy.

He, they may say, well, if he had slaves, then he had to.

But I think there's one other thing that's missing in this, especially if we're, if we're

reformed.

Why are we so arrogant to believe when we already know, but by the grace of God, there go.

I, why are we so arrogant to believe that had I lived in the time of Jonathan Edwards,

that I would have been seen it so perfectly.

Uh, now we do know there were people that did by the grace of God, see these things.

William Wilberforce.

I mean, there you go.

A guy that saw it, but thank God that he raised someone.

Up like that.

In fact, uh, the reforms, Presbyterian church of North America, the

covenanters, they were the first Christians, uh,

in the South that had integrated services and were opposed to slavery.

And, uh, especially, um, if you are not

including Quakers into the mix, because it's debatable whether you can really

consider Quakerism as a part of evangelical or historic Protestant Christianity,

but the reformed Presbyterians, they were, uh, among the first in the South or the first as

a denomination to openly oppose slavery.

Well, do we think.

As we look in judgment on the past that every single one of us would have been a William

Wilberforce?

I think not.

And there do, and do we think that 400 years from now that people will not

look back upon things that we believed and say, how did they ever believe that?

And they will see the scripture in areas that's truth that we were blind to.

I just think there is a tremendous arrogance going on right now that we need to be humbled and we need to

stop and we need to be careful about how we are, I believe, causing division within the

church even in how we're not having a conversation about this, but we're saying

conversation over,.

Here's what you must believe regarding this.

Yes.

In fact, uh, obviously there are even Pelagians

who object to the notion of mankind being cursed with the

sin of Adam, uh, thinking wrongly that they would have somehow

been, you know, more pure and obedient to God.

If only I could have been there.

Right.

And they, they don't see it as a, a justice that all men are cursed with this

thinking that if, that they would be able to somehow overcome the

temptations to sin and, and be sinless for their entire lives, even though they couldn't point to one person who.

Actually has achieved it.

Have you ever interviewed Vody Baucom on this issue?

I have wanted to interview Vody Baucom for years, and I saw him in the

restaurant here before the conference and he said that he would be interviewed.

So hopefully that will happen,.

But I love Vody Baucom and I've heard him preach and well, he's one of those black brothers

that sees the view differently.

And I, he has been, and he was hit hard by, uh, even our reformed,.

Many of our reformed black brothers because of the positions he took publicly uncertain, very notorious

circumstances and newsmaking events, uh, where he was, uh,

saying that, uh, you know, if you're in a community to not dot, dot,

if you're in a community dominated by black citizens and most of those,

uh, young black men are being murdered by other black men.

Isn't that an issue that you should be addressing more ferociously and vigorously than

the occasions where white police officers are committing these crimes?

And not that we should overlook abuses by the police or anything like that, but I'm just saying this is, and I, of

course, paraphrase Vody, but that seemed to be what he was saying.

And unless you think I.

Misinterpreted.

No, I heard the same thing.

And I think that it would be interesting to hear from him regarding how does he, how would

he speak to us as, uh, as white brothers and sisters in Christ

and how we can go about understanding the issue and engaging others on the

issue so that we can have unity in the church.

There is a lot of disunity about this and it's not because everybody that is concerned is a

racist.

The disunity is, is because of the myriad of reasons.

And one of the biggest reasons is because there's an.

Unwillingness to have a conversation, right?

And the boy who cried wolf syndrome is very much in play here

because I believe racism is indeed alive and well.

Unfortunately, it is a sin that exists amongst professing Christians to sin that I have

experienced in conversations with Christians and I am taken aback

at sometimes how openly racist some individuals I know are,

and they would refuse to acknowledge that.

But when you constantly hear people being accused of it, when they are clearly

not guilty in those instances where they're accused of it, where they're being slandered, where their

characters are being assassinated, and you just keep hearing this over and over and over again, people don't

take it seriously when it actually is occurring or they don't take it as seriously as they should.

And it's just like, oh yeah, another charge of racism again.

You know, come on, give me a break.

It's a very dangerous situation that is developing.

And it, uh, basically disagreement

with leftist philosophy equates racism in many cases in the minds of.

Leftists.

And at the end of the day, what is the cure, if you will, for a racist

heart?

Is it not the gospel?

And the gospel is the only thing that can transform people.

And that's what the church needs to be busy about.

Not civil solely, I have nothing against civil action

per se, but where the church puts its energy and efforts into trying to change the

culture without giving them the gospel.

And I don't understand that because these are the same people that were mad at Richard Land

in the 80s for trying to force, in their words, morality

upon America without the gospel.

And now they're just got another brand of it, of issue of morality.

And they're saying, we need to stamp out racism in our country.

Well, how are we going to do that?

It's not through legislation, though we certainly need to have legislation.

Hearts must be changed first.

That's the purpose of the church.

Should we also speak for good legislation?

Yes.

But if our energies are lopsided away from the preaching of the gospel to that,

then we are in serious trouble.

Yes.

The conservatives decades ago were the ones that were accused of being

a part of the thought police.

But it certainly has reversed 180 degrees where those on the left, it's

ironic how the slogan that was very often uttered and perhaps still is

often uttered by those on the left is you cannot legislate morality.

And yet everything that they are doing politically is an attempt at

legislating things that they view to be moral.

And they are going to extremes that conservatives never dreamed of, even in the heyday

of, you know, the greatest amount of political

control that conservatives had in this country.

It's getting scary.

And you can even see not that I approve of vulgarity amongst

liberal comedians and so on, but you could see that there is a nervousness amongst even them now from

people of their own ilk that frequent the same cocktail parties and

socialize together.

There are leftists even who are starting to realize the danger that

is coming from their own ilk, if you will.

Liberalism.

Well, I would like you now to basically summarize what you personally want

most to be etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

And also, of course, if you could conclude by making sure our listeners have all of your contact information for the First

Baptist Church of Glendale, Texas.

Well, my passion and.

Heart is the local church.

It always has been.

Being a pastor is my greatest joy.

I love to preach the word, but I love to disciple people and grow people.

And I guess the thing that I would want to etch in people's minds is that if you

want to make an impact on the world for Jesus Christ, then the local church is where your energies need to be.

I obviously thank God for ministries like Iron Sharpens Iron, because that's what you're doing

is you're putting the truth of the doctrine out there.

Find a church that is going to teach you the word of God, is going to hold you

accountable to the truths of God's word, love you enough to come after you and pursue you

if you go off in sin, and who will take you from the time that you come to Christ to the time that

they bury you in the ground to build you up and equip you in the gospel of

Jesus Christ to make you a saint.

The most important thing about a church is what it believes.

And we go into churches and we often are shopping for a variety of things, whether it be a

certain program for my stage of life or music or whatever it may be.

The thing that should drive us to a church is what do they believe, what do they preach, because

all those other things are peripheral.

You can help change those things if there needs to be better programming or whatever.

But one thing that you will not make a difference in, more likely than not, is altering what that

church believes.

So you need to unite yourself with a church that's solid in its doctrine, preaches the word, and the

gospel is the only solution that they offer to people for the problem that we have, which

is sin.

My church is located on the internet at just simply www

.fbclindale .com, which is F -L -I -N -D -A -L -E.

That's correct.

And all our sermons are there.

You can even probably get a taste of kind of who we are.

We make sure their website lets people know what the culture is like in our church.

And I'd love, you know, if anybody wants to interact with me, they can find me there, and my

email address is just tom .fbclindale .com, L -I -N -D -A -L -E.

Well, it's been an honor and.

Privilege to have you on the program today.

I look forward to many more opportunities to interview you on Iron Trap and Zion Brother.

Please let's stay in touch.

Thank you so much for having me.

God bless.

And that is the conclusion of the Tom Buck interview that was conducted live on

site at the G3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia at the Georgia International

Convention Center.

We are now going to go to our final break, and then we are going to hear the

interview that we conducted with Pastor Michael Wyszkowski, and I hope I pronounced that

correctly.

I think I did.

Michael Wyszkowski.

Sounds like I have a lisp, but that's how I believe you correctly pronounce it.

He is pastor of the Westminster Chapel in Ball Ground,

Georgia, and I really enjoy this brother.

I thank God for him.

He is a godsend because he not only picked me up from the Amtrak

in Atlanta and brought me to the Georgia International Convention Center where my hotel was

attached, the Marriott there, but he also brought me

back to the Amtrak after the event was over on the 20th of January

and spent hours of fellowship with me because I had a long wait for that Amtrak back to

Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.

So he was a precious godsend to me and has become a friend, and I look forward to

many more opportunities to fellowship with him.

But that will be our final interview that we air today after this final station break,

so don't go away.

God willing, we are going to be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I would like to introduce you to my good friends Todd and Patty Jennings at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley

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In fact, I believe that's the only way you're getting those offers of the free shipping and the free $20 book

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purchase $50 or more worth of merchandise.

So now we are back to our final interview of the day.

It's not going to be our final G3 interview.

We have more to come on future programs.

Although when I sign out or even when I introduce my guest, Michael

Wyszkowski, pastor of Westminster Chapel in Bull Ground, Georgia,

this was the final interview that we conducted at the G3 conference as people

were actually tearing down the exhibitors booth and packing up ready to leave.

That was our final interview, but we still have more to come.

We just put this one in our lineup today because it fit

time -wise nicely into the program so we had time to air it.

So this is our interview with Michael

Wyszkowski.

And keep in mind, even though we say it's our final G3 interview, we have more to come in future broadcasts.

And let me introduce to you my dear brother in Christ and friend, Michael Wyszkowski

of Westminster Chapel.

Chris Arnzinn here at the tail end of the G3 conference here in Atlanta, Georgia.

It has been such a blessing.

I can't even describe in the English language how much I have enjoyed being here this year.

I enjoyed it last year, but this year has been even more of a blessing.

And I am with right now someone who actually became a friend last year, who I providentially

met here, Pastor Michael Wyszkowski.

Yeah, that's good.

You did good.

I thought that I was going to pronounce.

It right.

Did I?

No, that was good.

Wyszkowski.

There are various ways, even among family members.

Is it Wyszkowski?

Wyszkowski.

I think I put a K that didn't belong.

No, that's an extra K.

No, I had a teacher in school who used to call me Wynowski.

It lasted the entire semester and I just let it go.

I want a good grade, but it happens all the time.

Pastor Michael Wyszkowski,.

Who is the pastor of the Westminster Chapel in Ball Ground, Georgia.

Almost at Ball Park again.

It kind of sounds like you would say Ball Park, but no, Ball Ground.

That's right.

He has been such a blessing to me because not only is he a wonderful brother in Christ,

he wears his love for the Lord on his sleeve.

It just like pours out of him.

He is a very vibrant individual.

His joy in the Lord is contagious when you're fellowshiping with Brother Michael.

He has been a godsend because here locally he has been my transportation to the train

station.

He has been somebody to fellowship with during long hours waiting for my

Amtrak train back to Pennsylvania.

I'm so delighted that you are here again today, Brother.

Why don't you tell our listeners something about the Westminster Chapel of Ball

Ground, Georgia?

Well, first of all, I'd.

Just like to say the only reason that I offered to pick you up is because you were from Pennsylvania and I figured you were a Steelers fan.

Once I found out you weren't, I decided that I'm never.

Giving you a ride again.

Well, I remember I'm a native New Yorker, but I did before a Christian

place bets on the Steelers back in the 80s when they were on a Super Bowl streak.

Terry Bradshaw was the quarterback back then.

There you go.

Well, yeah, I do.

I pastor a.

Westminster Chapel in Ball Ground.

We're just a small church in a small

town, about 70 people.

Usually we have an attendance reformed.

We're not affiliated with any specific denomination per se, but we do characterize

ourselves as reformed, heavily influenced by the confessions, thoroughly biblical,

have a passion to proclaim the Word of God verse by verse through books of

the Bible.

We're led by biblical elders and deacons and just a

real amazing plurality of gifted men and women that God has drawn to the church.

We're actually, one thing I've noticed being a part of some of the bigger churches, and of course there's

nothing wrong with the big church, but being a small church we're able to have a kind of

family fellowship that I think a lot of the bigger churches don't really experience outside of

small groups and things like that.

That's who we are.

We exist to preach the Word and love people.

And do ministry.

Amen, and I know one of the things that is unique that you rarely see, although it does

exist, such as I know that the Free Presbyterian Church of North America

and also their mother church, the Free Presbyterian Church in Ulster in Northern

Ireland, they have both those who believe in paedo -baptism and

credo -baptism or credo -baptism or those that believe in infant baptism and

those who believe in believer -only baptism, to put it in more understandable terms,

both involved in the same congregation.

Yes.

And that is the case with you.

It was even the case with the late Peter Jeffrey who became a friend of mine from Port Talbot, Wells.

Yes.

The congregation where he pastored, Sandfields, which was at one time the congregation

where Martin Lloyd -Jones pastored.

Yes.

They had both Presbyterians and Baptists in there.

Yeah, you know, it's something that we prayed about a lot.

Even now we still pray about it, and of course, you know, it's not a decision that every church is

required to make.

We just feel that we have such a deep appreciation for our Presbyterian brothers

and our Reformed Baptist brothers and, you know, even the New Covenant guys that we wanted to

create an environment and have a church where both are welcome.

You know, I've always found it interesting that some of my Reformed Baptist brothers

will quote these guys like R .C. Sproul and Sinclair Ferguson and John Calvin.

They'll quote them and they'll recommend their books, they'll recommend their works, and yet, under

their church government or under their church structure, those same individuals wouldn't be

able to participate in the leadership of the church.

They wouldn't be able to teach Sunday school.

They wouldn't, in some cases, they wouldn't even be able to be members, and I've always been a

little bit perplexed by that, but I do see also, I recognize that

it's not necessarily required by the Bible.

And by virtue of the fact that you are an.

Independent, autonomous congregation, you are not Presbyterian in your polity.

No, no, we're not.

We're not.

And, of course, autonomous from any structure outside of

Scripture.

We do have, of course, a body of elders and deacons, and we

encourage one another to have relationships with those outside of the body and

accountability outside of the body,.

Just not necessarily official.

So why don't you give our listeners a summary of what you've.

Experienced at the G3 Conference this year?

Yeah, it's been great.

It's been really good.

Very similar to last year.

Really solid speakers.

Just really encouraged by some of the messages.

Derek Thomas had a great message on Romans 12, 1 through 2, that I appreciated

having preached through Romans.

Now I'm two and a half years in, and I was just recently preaching through that chapter, and so I

just had a deep appreciation for some of the things that he was saying.

I had the honor of, once again, interviewing him recently on Iron Trip and Zion Radio to promote.

The G3 Conference.

Oh, excellent.

It was great.

Votie Bauckham, he was very encouraging.

His message just...

Yeah, he's powerful.

Oh, well, just even the content, just that perseverance in ministry and enduring

suffering as a young minister, it's just so important to hear that over and over again.

Not just to endure suffering, but to persevere in a way that you don't give into the

pragmatism and the Christianity light of our culture that is

pervading the modern -day church.

It's such a temptation to do that, and you've got these guys here at the G3

who time and time again are calling young ministers, old ministers to

persevere and to hold fast to the truth of sound doctrine and to

not give in to pragmatism, to not give in to the ways

of our.

Culture, the direction that we're headed.

Yeah, I was so thrilled that I finally had the opportunity for the very first time to interview Votie.

He has been a very difficult person to get a hold of to interview, especially since he lives now in

Zambia, where my dear friend since 1995, Dr. Conrad Mbewe

is the pastor at Kobwata Baptist Church in Lusaka,

Zambia.

The only thing that I regret was that when I finally got a hold of...

Well, when he got a hold of me, actually, he finally made his way to my booth.

Both Votie and I were totally exhausted, so I had mercy on him and kept

the interview rather short, which I still have misgivings about because I really wanted to keep him here

for 45 minutes or an hour, but I didn't want him angry at me either.

He looks like he could snap me in half with one hand, even though I'm a fairly large person myself.

Well,.

I got a funny story, actually, about that.

When I was a younger teenager, I had gone to a conference

in Kentucky.

I can't recall exactly what conference it was, but Votie Bauckham was there, and I was

just getting into some of his stuff, still in that sort of

dazzled by the superstars of Christianity

phase.

He was there, and he was kind of late setting up, and he just got there.

I remember I was wearing my jeans with holes in them, and I had my

cool hipster outfit on.

He had gotten there, and I said, Hey, Votie!

Hey, Votie!

Can I get a picture?

Hey, Votie!

Votie!

And finally, he turned around and said, It's Votie!

And wait a minute!

He wasn't being mean, but it was just too funny.

I'll never forget that.

I'm glad I pronounced it correctly.

He was gracious, and of course, we talked, but I'll just never forget that.

I was just so scared.

He was going to break out his Brazilian jiu -jitsu.

That's right.

He is a martial artist.

In fact, I believe that that is the specific type of martial art that

Frank Mullis is involved in, who we just interviewed not long ago during the course of the stay

here.

Excellent.

Well, as far as your church's outreach to the local area

of ball ground Georgia, and of course, tell us exactly geographically where that is.

Sorry, I apologize if you've said it.

No, I'm really, really bad with directions and

maps and stuff like that, but the people who live in this area, it's in between Jasper and Canton.

It's right off

exit 27 on 575.

As far as outreach, I believe strongly in intentional evangelism.

I think that's one thing that the church has lost sight of.

We strive to come up with all these crafty and clever ways to reach people.

Friendship evangelism.

There's other names that are escaping me right now, which of course, there

are elements of those things that are fine and good.

Actually, we should be involved in some.

Of the elements of those things.

Absolutely.

There are virtues too.

Just about every system that someone pushes as the evangelism system to go with.

I think that one thing that's been neglected is just that concept of just intentional

evangelism with the gospel, going out with the intention, handing out tracts, engaging people,

being honest about who we are.

Look, we're Christians with the gospel.

We're not going undercover.

We're not sitting there and acting like we want to be best friends with this guy when really

our aim is to reach him with the gospel.

Even street preaching.

There's been some street preachers here that I just so appreciate their willingness to step out

and to do that.

I still do it occasionally, but in preparation for the ministry, that was something that was really

instrumental in my life, was just taking a couple of years and really focusing on

preaching on the streets before I preached behind a pulpit.

That's one way that I encourage our church, our members to be involved in the community is,

yes, build relationships, get out there.

As a congregation, of course, we find ways to do that, but also just

that intentional going out and proclaiming the gospel.

I've been troubled by some friends and acquaintances who have

joyfully quoted, and I can't remember the original source of this.

I don't know if it was St. Francis of Assisi or someone.

I can't remember.

Maybe you know the source, and I am paraphrasing perhaps because I don't have it in front of me, but the

quote is, preach the gospel and if necessary, use words.

That bothers me greatly because if that

was the motto, not only of Jesus Christ, but of his apostles,

none of them would have been martyred.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Well, you know what?

I'll say that the only way that you can possibly do that is if you're really good with charades.

If you're really good with miming things, charades, maybe you

can get the gospel across without words, but I think the fundamental flaw in that is that

it misses the reality that the gospel is actual news.

If I can live the gospel out, then the message of the gospel is no longer the

person and work of Christ.

It's the person and work of me.

I'm hoping that someone somehow will make the connection that I'm a

Christian and I'm doing these things in the name of Jesus, but even the problem with that

is that the gospel emphasizes more than just a person.

It emphasizes a specific message about the cross, what Jesus did on the

cross, what his substitutionary atonement is propitiating work,

his resurrection from the dead, total depravity, the fact that we're sinners in need of a savior.

These things cannot be communicated without words, and

that's connected with how we're equipping our people as pastors.

Are we feeding them this idea that just go out and be good people and be

nice people and be tolerant people and hope that someone gleans the gospel from that?

I think that's just foolishness, and I think that it's an excuse to compromise the gospel,

to just kind of live like the world and do whatever you want and call it gospel.

And you see that in some of these groups too, even where there's this emphasis on

living the gospel, and so every single activity that the church does together, whether it's

poker night, whether it's play in pool, whether it's just hanging out, it all becomes this

living the gospel, no matter what I'm doing.

And I always tell people in the church, you can't live the gospel.

You can live in light of the gospel.

You can live in a way that displays that you've been changed by the

gospel, but you yourself, you can't live the gospel.

You can't be the gospel.

There's only one message of the gospel, and it takes words.

In fact, since some of my listeners may be more diligent

to use correct language, I probably should clarify something that I said

about our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ when I used him collectively

as an illustration of martyrs just moments ago.

Obviously, Jesus Christ voluntarily laid down his own life and was

the Messiah, and his death was an orchestrated

plan of God, so I don't want to give the opinion that I'm just counting him

among other individuals who died for the faith.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

And I want you to have five minutes uninterrupted to just summarize what you most want etched

in.

The hearts and minds of our listeners today.

Well, you would be better served by going and listening to some of the messages at the conference.

I don't have anything new or innovative or

anything original to say.

Probably that hasn't already been said throughout all these interviews.

Well, being someone who believes in the inerrancy of Scripture and the sufficiency of Scripture,.

I don't think that you need to say anything new.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

I think that, you know, just for all the young ministers, one thing that I've been re

-reminded about throughout this conference is our duty not to

think that we need to be pragmatic, to think that we need to be

innovative, think that we need to be new and original, but to preach

the old gospel, to preach the old, old story of Jesus and his love, to preach the Word

faithfully.

And, you know, that's hard.

That's costly in our generation.

There's such a pull on the hearts of young Timothys in our generation,

not just by my generation, but even by the older generation, who wants to reach

the youth and wants to reach out to millennials.

I think we just need to be so, so cautious as younger ministers to

be bound by the text of Scripture that we're preaching, to communicate to our people

that the text is over us.

We're not over the text.

The text is over us, and it should look to our congregation

like we're not just making this stuff up, like we're drawing it from the text.

And then that, of course, transfers into the way that not just we preach, but the way that we lead, the way that we

do counseling, the way that we teach, Bible studies during the week.

It should always seem to those that we're leading, to those that we're communicating truth

to, that we have a standard, and that we're not that standard, but that the Bible is the

standard.

And, you know, if we don't do that, you know, we may be able to come up

with some good psychology or philosophy of ministry that

attracts people, but it's not going to be distinctively Christian.

It's not going to turn people to the triune God and make them more dependent on Him.

It's going to make them more dependent on us.

And so, you know, as a young minister, I'd just like to give that word of

encouragement and exhortation to other younger ministers, and even old ministers, you know,

don't try to, you know, become this

millennial yourself, you know, who, you know, is just obsessed with

reaching youth with a youth message.

Preach the same message for the old, for the young, for everybody.

You know, the gospel doesn't change.

There's not a youth gospel, another gospel for the mature, another

gospel for the old.

There's one gospel, there's one Bible, there's one message of Jesus Christ, and we need to be faithful

to that.

And that's what I would say.

Amen.

And before I have you give your contact information, one thing that I probably should clarify, since,

because of the unusual nature of your congregation being comprised of both Pato

Baptists and the Credo or Credo Baptists, you are not expecting an

elder or deacon or anyone in the church to violate their conscience

and baptize an infant if that is not a conviction.

Absolutely not.

And that's the beauty of having a plurality of elders and deacons in a

church like that, is you're going to find people who are able to do both without violating their conscience.

And so that's a great point, very, very good point.

We never want to go against conscience, never want to go against, you know, what we firmly believe the Scriptures

teach.

You know, I have strong beliefs about the issue myself, but I just want to

remain consistent with our Constitution

and the philosophy of ministry that I believe the Bible teaches.

With matters like these.

And if you could let our listeners know how they can get in contact with you.

Yeah, we have a website, westminsterchapel .net, and my

personal information is on there, my email.

You can go to contact us, and it's just right under there, my email address.

And that's pretty much the main means of communication that we have.

If you want to listen to sermons, we post most of the sermons online too, so you can

get in touch with us that way and check us out and see if.

We're a fit.

Well, we are one of the very few booths still operating right now.

The vast majority of the exhibitors booth have already been torn

down, of course by those operating them, not by anybody else.

And so it's a hint for us to get prepared to leave the G3 conference

here in Atlanta, Georgia, and I'm looking forward to spending some time this afternoon with Pastor Michael here

and breaking bread with him.

And I hope that you all enjoyed hearing the interviews that I conducted

here on site, and I hope that many of you who have not been to the G3

conference will make a vested effort to be here next year if

nothing providentially hinders you.

And this is Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio reminding you all to never forget for the rest of

your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.

Amen.