Debate Review

You can say what you want, but you won't around me. I'm a thief among misfits.

A misfit in the trailer park at night. A misprint with the sixth sense.

Been sick ever since my brother died of an O .D. My true sense never made sense, either to me or anyone else inside of the

G -Sense. My ninth fifth on my right side. Why you staring at your cop outside of my job?

I can't cop on the dotted line. Tell me what's the bottom line. The bottom line is I'm not right.

I'm not left, but this elephant won't fight. There's nothing left but the spotlight. Hold my spear, you can find me in the moonlight.

Moonlight. You can say what you want, but you won't around me.

You can say what you want, but you won't around me. I'm with sin to deep end, and I can't find my assigned seat to sit in.

My theology don't fit in. Black sheep of the Reformation sheep pen. In the reformed,

I'm just another Baptist baptized again. The bastard child of Anabaptist.

Hostage child of Reformation society. We don't need your education. Give me a

Bible in a bookshelf of dead men. Cigars, bourbons, and beer cans. Bow ties, tattoos, and bearded men.

Making reformation. Lay the gun. You can say what you want, but you won't around me.

No, you won't around me.

Yeah, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Open Air Theology Show. My name is Jeff. I'm one of the co -hosts of Open Air Theology.

And I'm also one of the elders, pastor elders, of Covenant Reformed Baptist Church in Tullahoma, Tennessee.

If you don't come and visit, we really don't know what you're doing with your life. But be that as it may,

I'm going to pass it down to this guy right here. All right.

I am Brayden Patterson. I am the pastor currently of Reformed.

I almost said the wrong thing. Excuse me. I'm the pastor of Valley Baptist Church in Hagerman, Idaho.

We meet on Sundays at 11 a .m. Come check it out if you live in southern Idaho. It would be a real blessing to be able to meet you.

However, I'm going to be, my family and I are going to be moving to California to Grace Bible Church in Moore Park in Ventura County.

They meet on the Lord's Day at 10 .30 a .m. So if you live in that area and you're looking for a fellowship, come check that out.

It would be a real blessing to celebrate the resurrection of Christ with you. Also, I have a YouTube channel called Reformed Ex Mormon.

It's a real blessing sometimes to be hanging out with these guys on Open Air Theology. I'll pass it up to Tom.

I do more than you. I get a longer plug, guys. My name is Tom Shepard.

I'm a member of Grace Bible Church in Birney. I head up the evangelism team that goes out on the streets to proclaim the gospel.

We're north of San Antonio. Come out and visit us. I'm glad to be here with you guys.

Very good. Very good. Well, gentlemen, how was church?

Well, I'll go first. I was driving. I drove back on the Lord's Day.

Do not forsake the gathering of yourselves together. So what is she saying?

My wife is saying, are you wearing my T -shirt? No, this is my shirt. This is my shirt. Take your wife's clothes off,

Tom. Are you wearing your wife's clothes, Tom? Yes.

So we went out to the G3 conference, the cessationism conference, and hung out there in Oklahoma.

And I heard some good preaching. We enjoyed our time out there. And we drove back all the way from Oklahoma today.

It was pretty exhausting. And so we listened to Jeff online. We listened to our pastor online.

And... You got fed. Yeah. And then I listened to our church online as well, along with another one.

So yeah. So we actually didn't get to go today. But it was still a good Lord's Day. How was your

Lord's Day, Brayden? I actually was fellowshipping with the saints today. So it was great, unlike some other people in this conversation, apparently.

We just got to sit in and have my co -pastor be able to preach today. And so it was a real blessing to sit under him and just hear him speak on Galatians chapter 4, verses 1 through 7.

A very edifying text to be in. And yeah, it was overall a great

Lord's Day. How about you, Jeff? It was pretty good.

No. It was really good. Just fellowshipping with the saints, man. I mean...

I'm just so grateful that the Lord has got the people that he has at our church. Just the fellowship, the camaraderie.

Man, it's unlike anything I've ever experienced. Like, just the love that's displayed, right?

It's fantastic. And now, as far as my message, in the moment

I didn't feel like I was doing well. But I've received a lot. I haven't got to hear my message. I mean, it was definitely a deep, deep topic.

I spoke on John chapter 14, verses 1 through 6. And I pointed out what's clear and obvious.

But I also pointed out what isn't so clear and obvious. And in doing so, it got a little deeper than most.

But I've received a lot of feedback from it where people really enjoyed it.

They thought it went really good. And again, I haven't got to hear it. But in the moment, I felt like I was dropping the ball.

I felt like I was eating it. But I'm grateful that the Lord used it either way.

So, amen. What we heard was fantastic. It was really good. Pointing people to Christ. Emphasizing that He is the only way.

That Christ is the only way to be reconciled unto the Father. I thought it was really good.

And that was – I think we were in Brownwood, Texas. It was a backward – you don't –

I thought it was Jesus was one way. And being innocent from birth is another way to heaven.

Yeah, that's what we're going to be talking about today. Oh, yeah. Hey, how does my mic sound? Do I sound okay to y 'all? Am I clear?

Something's going – That's what I'm saying. I'm hearing that too. Well, I got animals.

I got the crickets and everything outside. Is that what you're hearing? It's not that. Do you have a microphone plugged into your device?

My microphone is this right here. Can you take that off and not use that?

It's not. Let me try. I might not sound as good.

Not saying that I sound good. Try it. I know I've got one of those voices that –

Oh, yeah. I hear crickets. You're good now. Can you hear me? Yeah. Say something.

That's better. I'm talking right now. Can you hear me? Huh? Oh, my

Lord. Listen. I've been standing – Put the mic back in. I don't want to hear it.

I need some new besties. Tom has his besties, okay? Man.

Hey, listen. So, what we're smoking, we already have a question. I'm smoking a Diamond Crown Maduro.

It's some good stuff right there. What are you smoking, Jeff? I'm smoking a Joya. A what?

A joint? Yeah. Joya. Joya. You're not allowed to do that as a pastor. Yeah. Well, you know, we're

Reformed, okay? Yeah. We don't call something sin if the Bible don't call sin. That's right.

Where were you smoking, Brady? Brady's hiding. I knew it was coming. I don't got much to hide behind, but I'm hiding.

Hiding behind those little hands. But it's really close. Yeah. You guys are ridiculous.

So, how many people, I mean, put a comment in the section if you heard Braden's debate.

Yeah, if you heard the debate that Braden did where he just mollywhopped COC, put it in the comments.

Let us know what you're working with. That's right. And if you didn't watch it, finish watching this and then go watch that.

Yeah. If you didn't watch it, listen, you're about to get open -air theology discipline, okay? I mean, we just…

Listen, the very first thing, the very first thing, when I get done with the debate,

I talked to my wife, of course, Emily. And then I went and called these guys, and these guys tell me,

Braden, before I even tell you if you did good or not, you look dumb wearing a button -up and a tie.

They didn't even compliment me on the debate. They just started riffing and hating on my outfit.

It was messed up. Well, we're open -air theology. And, I mean, I'll tell you how gangster this show is.

Even my wife gets on the debate and says, you're an idiot. What?

You're not allowed to use that. But then I forget she's the black sheep's spouse, so she's allowed to do it.

Fair enough. It is what it is. Not you were an idiot, Braden. Oh, I thought she was calling me an idiot.

I understand if she was calling you an idiot. That makes sense. No, she was calling your debate partner an idiot, right?

Oh. Oh, yeah. That really makes sense then. Yeah. Braden also had a whipped cream problem.

I did have that. When you come to Texas next week, I'm making you a Texas ribeye.

Oh, Debbie. Wait a minute. That's my ribeye. Nope. Listen. Listen, I'm a little mad, okay?

I'm going to go ahead and get this off my chest. Before we get started, I'm going to get this off my chest. These two jack legs are going to be together next week.

You know who's not going to be with them? This jack leg. Right?

They're going to try to call me. You know what? They probably won't even try to call me. They'll probably just forget all about me.

We're not having this tomorrow. Next week, we're going to be absent. No.

Next week, we're doing live. No. Braden's going to be right here. And we're both. I don't know. Yeah.

Braden's a citizen. Next week. It'll be next next week. Is it next next week? Next next week.

I'm still mad. I'm still mad. You should be. I'm still mad. Still mad. We probably won't actually have time to call you because of all the fun activities that we're doing.

I know. All the fun y 'all are going to be having. Get on my nerves. So we get to go.

We're going to go do some evangelism. How do you say Jeff ain't nothing without saying that he ain't nothing.

Y 'all two hanging out together all week. Yeah. We won't be able to call you to tell you ain't nothing. I'll be over here hanging out.

Oh, chopped liver. We offered you to go hang out with some other friends and you weren't.

You didn't like those suggestions. Listen, listen. Get on my nerves.

I'm just letting you guys know I'm pretty sure. Yeah I don't do. Okay the only time I use liver is when

I go catfishing okay. I'm pretty sure that's like a actual judicial ceremonial law for the church is not to eat liver.

I eat liver. It's oh no Tom do you really? Yeah we're on carnivore here. By the way we're on carnivore here.

Here we go look at that. I got a new bestie.

Braden tell us what the debate was about. What was the topic of the debate? Well first of all

I'll first come on to how it came about. I got hit up by Marlon I think it was

Saturday last week. I think saying hey would you be interested in doing a debate on the topic of are babies born with a sinful nature.

And so I was like well I think I can make that happen. I got a lot of stuff going on next week but I think

I can make that happen. And so I ended up telling him yes I believe on Sunday last week. So seven days ago.

And so in reality between work I had about four days to be actually able to prepare for this.

And I'm also trying to do a seminary class right now that I'm getting through. So I didn't get a lot of time to debate or to prepare for this debate.

My opponent's name is Joshua Rodriguez on that debate. And he had

I think months to prepare for this. The other gentleman that he was originally supposed to debate backed out because of I'm not 100 percent sure the reasoning for it but something came up and he wasn't able to do it.

I'm happy I got to jump in. I think I did well for four ish days of preparation.

I was happy about it. Yeah I thought you did good. So are babies born with a sinful nature.

What do you guys say. Well they're born in Adam. So you know through Adam all we all have died through Adam because when

Adam sin he brought into the world sin and death. And as long as there's death then there is sin.

And as long as there is birth there's going to be people born with that sin nature.

Therefore we are going to die. The wages of sin is death. Yeah. When it comes to an infant as long as infants die.

All right. Well an infant hasn't committed a personal sin in order to deserve death. So how is it that infants are worthy of death.

There is because they are born under the federal headship of Adam. Now is that easy to swallow.

No. But good theology isn't easy to swallow. So he contradicted himself several times too.

He was talking about how God wouldn't wouldn't punish an innocent person. And then and then he explained he tried to explain away the punishment you know on or the judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah on the flood as well where babies died.

He contradicted himself several times basically saying well you know they were innocent. That was based on on the judgment of their fathers you know on their father's sin.

So babies were being punished then. But then at the same time he goes well then you can't be punished according to someone else's sin.

Mm hmm. All them on that. And he didn't. I don't think he knew what to say. Yeah.

I think the thing that I think really is bothersome about the whole conversation is that it really does undermine the gospel and what we see with the principle of Christ.

I mean even in the sense of and this is not something I talked about in the debate. But God appears to Abraham and tells

Abraham in you there will be a seed that will bless the nations. Was Christ inside of Abraham.

Like this is this is this is speaking of federal headship and what brings about things. And so are we in Christ.

Well yeah because he's our federal head. Galatians chapter 3. We are the heirs of the promise.

Heirs of Abraham. Sons of Abraham through faith in Christ the seed singular. And so my opponent doesn't understand on this video.

He did not understand federal headship is his presupposition his biblical systematic of how he's approaching to read the text comes from a

Church of Christ standpoint that doesn't hold the covenant theology. And so that is completely foreign to him.

And so that's what I was really trying to get to with things is that we have to have a federal head that represents us in one way or another because Christ is imputed with our sin and we are imputed with his righteousness in 2nd

Corinthians chapter 5 verse 21. That is the teaching. And so if we deny that we fall in Adam how can we how can we have hope that we are saved through the innocence of somebody else.

What blew me away is when you had when you had said he was he was making the same trying to draw a conclusion saying that if you're saying that all babies are born with the same nature then he turned it and said well then

Jesus was born of the same nature as well. Oh man when he said that I about freaking threw my phone.

So he's literally and here's the thing when you when you don't understand who God is when you don't understand his work because he's holy that he requires perfection.

Understand hypostatic union. Right. He doesn't understand who Christ is. You don't understand man's condition.

You don't understand who God is. You're not a brother. You don't understand the gospel. And it's sad to say but but he doesn't understand the gospel.

He's not all that Bible reading. No better off than an atheist.

Yeah. He's no better off than a Muslim. And I'm gonna say this and I'm gonna piss a lot of people off and it's

OK. He's no better than someone who is in Judaism. They don't have

Christ. They don't have God. Well you have a Christ. Listen I'm at this point today to believe in Christ is to know

Christ. And if you don't understand the hypostatic union my dear friend you do not know Christ.

Right. That's right. That's the whole purpose of whenever the God did not turn to Adam and said in a seed the seed of Adam speaking to the serpent he said the seed of the woman.

Right. Right. This seed was not going to have a federal head. It's not going to be born of a natural birth in the sense that one man and one woman come together and have a child.

That's right. If Jesus if Joseph was was truly

Jesus's father then Jesus would not have been the Messiah. Right. That's right. He would have been condemned the same way as all people are condemned in Adam at birth.

Right. So and that was the thing I think even Brayden pointed that out just saying he could you basically under your system you're saying that if a baby is born innocent and never sins then he's going to go to heaven.

He doesn't need Christ's righteousness put on his account because he's already perfect. That's basically occasions.

Oh yeah. Yeah. Well the thing that really bugged me about it is that he so first of all he never said anything in any of the conversations that I had with him or he had with Marlon about using slides.

And so he brings up these slides that have pictures of babies with devil horns on it. Second command violations with it.

Things that I was not aware of and I was not OK with at all. And so Marlon didn't know about it.

It took place. It is what it is. I'm just disappointed that he did that to be honest with you because like that would be the equivalent of me making a slide and having a baby dancing on the blood of Christ or dancing on the cross saying look at how innocent

I am. I don't need the blood of Christ. I'm like those are just red herrings that are not like that should not be permittable in a debate when we're trying to have a cordial conversation.

Isn't that what he tried to do too. And I think you had actually mentioned it to Jeff and I before the debate even started that you had seen him do this a couple of other times where where he was trying to make the case where do all babies go to hell since since if they die do they do they do they all go to hell.

And you'd pointed out you'd brought up you're bringing up an emotional point to to look at the implications of that wasn't that's not what the debate was it was on does the baby have original sin or not.

A thousand percent yeah so his question was do babies go to hell and that is a question on soteriology that absolutely is tied with original sin and that question on it but that being your very first question just shows where you're going with this like you're just trying to make an appeal for the audience to get emotionally charged with it you're not actually trying to go to the next.

I would have had a lot more respect for it said let's go to a bible verse and I'm going to ask you this first of all like that would have been totally different that like just to say do babies go to hell you're making an emotionally charged straw man that's a red herring that's trying to get people to be emotionally invested with your argument rather than what scripture says and that that's just ridiculous that's not that's not good.

I think the most outrageous thing he did one besides that was bringing up the fact that you're going to be the next pastor at Grace Bible Church and the current pastor who you're going to be as if he was trying to find some contradiction yeah there was no contradiction it just didn't when he tried to do that I just ah

I couldn't believe that either I thought it was quite uh comical because when he said that I was like oh he's talking about pastor

Errol right now what nothing to do with this conversation he wants to hey

Jeff do you do you mind if I play this video of Errol and what he said this today he said this today at at his church at the church that I'm going to Grace Bible Church are you trying to make us cry are you look

I got pretty emotional this gentleman Tom's gonna cry look

Joshua went to this humble man and was trying to listen this humble gracious godly man that has been pastoring for 40 years listen like just listen to how sweet this gentleman just the kindness listen to this yesterday uh our next pastor

Braden was engaged in a debate online and it was live from five to seven or something like that Francis and I watched it last night listen go to go to YouTube and put in the search bar gospel truth the the gospel truth that's the name of the people who sponsored the debate and just put in Patterson debate on on that and it'll come up he's involved in more than one just look for the one that was on the fifth we'll leave that up for a little while so you can write that down listen you know why

I want you to listen to this I want you to see how gifted your pastor is I could not have done that when

I was his age I could not do that now he is uniquely gifted with God's word and kind powerful bold but kind um it helped of course that the the position he was debating was correct and his opponent was sadly doesn't understand the gospel even though he claims to be a

Christian but I just I just really want you take the time to watch your pastor in action um wow yesterday uh our next pastor that guy to go and try to I was just I was

I think he's speaking too kindly of you like I just yeah I agree

I agree listen I just when Joshua brought him up and thought that like saying something that he would say was going to contradict something

I I was going to say it no not at all and like that's just I don't know

I thought it was a little bit off it wasn't it wasn't called for but but thus he did it and I think it did not work out for him because Errol and I are we're both

Reformed Baptists so guess what we're both arguing for probably from that perspective so I'm not on that and and I I would

I would even bet I would even bet that Errol is probably praying for this guy because he truly does oh yeah and the gospel

I I promise you he is yeah yes yeah he is a humble that was that was underhanded you know what god means for bad god or what is it good god what man means for bad god means for good good lord oh my lord dude you need to go to bed

I have this person in my speech I will say I will say this

I told you guys earlier I am from Idaho I'm a simple man I mispronounce

Philippi Philippi I still don't know the way to say it and in the debate I said you can't say

Tullahoma you're you're no it's not it's Tallah I live here and it's not

Cal it's Kyle how that's what I said listen I said

Aoris and I should have said Arist that's my fault in the debate stop straining at gnats and trying to swallow a camel in the process hey what's up Tim how are you how are you doing

Michelle how you doing Debbie sup well

I uh I have the video of the debate here I don't know if you guys want to listen to any of parts that were said by either him or by me addressing you know what

I don't even think they're really gonna pay attention because we kind of pushed Haps out and brought Tom in and no one even said anything about it so what are they gonna listen what are they really listening to here you ready for it let's do it

I'm down wait what parts are you gonna put you know I think the best parts whatever parts you want me to put do it do it where he was asking you questions because okay yeah you nailed him on everything that he let me try that yes all right it's coming up can

I bring up before we go right to his questions can I bring up this time when I asked him you can do what you want this is your show too let me ask permission fair enough look at how handsome

Braden looks though in this I mean he looks like a dork fish I know y 'all are jealous he's got better I believe it's right here it's right here football helmet yes

I mean clearly he's in a oh no oh he obviously doesn't have kids right orthodox he does have one child he does around him well before we begin you're new to this show we make fun of people and we do it in good fun get over it get over it yeah if you're looking for a show that doesn't make fun of people this is not the show that's right

I think it's around we'll play a violin for you at the end of the show though yeah yeah it is true yeah if you can't have fun why what are you doing yeah what are we doing

I've never heard of a yes I mean clearly he's in a where he obviously understands law right um

I said earlier about that you know when we come to our youth now if you're asking me like well he had to look into the law well obviously because in his youth you know understanding then obviously he obviously knows that he's seen but the law obviously just exposed his sin that was to covet so he said

I would not know covetousness unless the law said do not covet right so he did not know that he only knew what he understood right was based upon what the law actually said and that's how he died that's right um and says in roman 7 11 for sin taking the cage by the command to see me and by excluding so sin slew him but wasn't isn't the case that he was already born like slain rather than sin slain him after the commandment came and deceived him and slew him so I mean

I don't know how I mean if that's Joshua yeah so you're in your 30s let's just say you have high blood pressure let's just say you have it okay and you've never had your blood pressure taken do you know without the blood pressure being taken that you have high blood pressure no okay yeah so if I give you a blood pressure machine what does it tell you that I have high blood pressure yep so there was sin the law came and it showed

Paul that he was sinful previous to the law before and your argument from verse 9 is that Paul was innocent when

Paul saying he was actually sinful before the law came okay well mic drop

I don't think what's being dealt with is that he says I'm alive so it wasn't like he was saying that got him tripped up big time yeah big time big time yeah yeah that was good so let me go right to his opening q a part right here because that no reason

I was arguing from that was uh romans 7 9 says before the law came

I was alive but when the law came I died and in verse 13 it says that the law demonstrated that I was sinful so it what he's talking about there is that Paul thought he had righteousness but when he realized what the law was he realized he was dead and he couldn't be made righteousness that's that's what the whole point of that is in that part um but here is no guys this is charlie with badass beard care and today

I'm here to talk to you all about a free sample that's right we offer a free sample of beard oil but talking about sins or righteousness he's talking about a jewish uh system of the levi's and melchizedek just not talking about righteousness being spread to another person or sin being spread to another person so I can't follow joshua yeah for your 20 -minute cross -exam brayden okay begin my questions all right so uh brayden um first question um if all children are born in sin right which would be a child or an adult you know makes no difference right then do you believe that it's possible for god to send perhaps my seven -month -year -old or your three sons to hell if god forbid they die today

I think that that is a question regarding soteriology that I heard you ask in your debate with ian that I believe is a fallacious straw man and that is being used as a red herring that's not dealing with the fact that children are dealt with or are born with original sin however

I will answer your question on this and I will do it in a non -emotional way according to 1689 london's confession of faith that is fitting with the scripture on this topic it gives us what scripture also gives on topic is that there's always one means of salvation for all people which is being born again and having faith in jesus christ alone and it's righteousness of christ the obedience according to romans 5 that makes a person righteous so do children go to hell or to heaven ultimately

I don't know anybody that goes to hell goes there justly based off of the based off of not only their sin but what the representative adam did but anybody that goes to heaven likewise is represented in christ so if a child goes to heaven according to the righteousness of christ wasn't there so he brings up my children my children like that's just that is not cool to do in a debate but at the same time it worked against him too it did yeah it definitely did you want me just let this play tom and we can talk about things or what do you is there a place in there specifically you want to look at or what so yeah i'm trying to think when when the question came out does god does god um does god kill innocent blood can do you know where that is specifically oh that was a question he asked me that was a question from it was at the one that was that's right even if none guy asked it oh look at that i just got it by the way i just i just put it up and i got it in my first click there we go okay this is good all right and listen to both answers on us joshua um well it's not for joshua but it says for both uh i guess every question for both is so capacity but anyway anyway well does god kill innocent blood joshua does god kill innocent blood right now it is a time of war you guys want to pay for a premium we read in jeremiah 9 where they were we don't play that killing innocent blood in regards to now i guess what he's trying to say is that when god killed certain nations where children involved well that was a consequence of their parents what they did so they died because of that children weren't committing sins therefore that god was killing them for that no but like me if i was born to a mother who was a drug addict and i come out deformed that's not because i somehow inherited her saying that i'm a drug addict too no it just is a consequence right just like in jonah when the when the ship was being wrecked the people were saying what's happening who's causing this it was a consequence of what jonah did and so people in the boat happened to be part of the situation the setting where they had to had to pay for jonah for what he was doing so no god does not kill innocent blood in regards to oh i'm gonna kill a baby because you know they're a devil no that's not how he works as for um david when the innocent when his baby died was a consequence of what david did wasn't because god set forth just to kill that baby that that's not the case all right uh brady yeah so joshua just essentially became a believer in original sin he said that the babies were dead were able to be killed because of a consequence of their father's sin and he quoted earlier from ezekiel chapter 18 saying that innocent people from the the children of a father shouldn't be uh put to death because they are innocent um he has just contradicted himself and he's closer now to the line of original sin which prays the lord for it uh this is dealing with federal headship uh no one is righteous no not one children are not righteous by nature and they are only made righteousness righteous through the federal headship of christ i agree with joshua uh i would also look at jonah and i would also talk about noah in the regard of his boat according to genesis chapter 7 and genesis chapter 8 it says that they were able to enter the ark based off of noah's righteousness and so why did only seven people uh not including you know we were able to make it through the water because noah was righteous god does not kill innocent people he kills people that are sinners and the only time that an innocent person has died is jesus christ uh praise all praise and glory to him so here here's the thing on that and and you you ripped him on that because if if if a baby is innocent and doesn't need the blood of christ to cover his sin nature to cover his sin guilt then christ need to die and you know one of the things that you didn't bring up and everything you know when you look at the abortion issue and why are we opposed to abortion if all these innocent babies are going to go right to heaven anyway so tom i wanted i was thinking about asking him that question i didn't because i didn't want to stoop down to his level of asking the fallacious reasoning argument like fair enough i almost asked him that because if he believes that if a child is born innocent and they get a ticket to heaven in that sense they get to go to heaven based off their innocence not off the blood of christ based off of their innocence right listen an abortionist has sent more children to heaven than jesus ever has because he hasn't sent anyone to heaven that's a child that's right yeah ma 'am if your theology allows for that kind of reasoning you got issues yeah anybody anybody who thinks that they could have a relationship with the father outside of christ is not a christian it's not you're not a christian nope it's a works -based salvation and you can't get there you can't the the standard is too high we've discussed this numerous times on different shows numerous times yeah thinking of where would be another good place to go to to talk about stuff uh i think her name was danine i don't see her on tonight did it come before your question or after your question it was after mine it was after yours oh right there found it that that's it all right everybody i'm sorry you're gonna have to watch another ad and these ads do not help open air theology this is this is these laws are not uh paying paying us money though no all right so we're gonna jam through a couple of these questions here and this question's come from danino thank you for the question question for joshua if we are not born with a sin nature and are only prone to sin can there be a person who never sins that was the best question of the day great questions yeah yeah so um again um we're not born prone to sin or prone to goodness like adam and eve they weren't born to goodness or to sin they had to make that decision for themselves they had no knowledge of good and evil god gave them a command to me if they had a promise to goodness god wouldn't have to give them a command they would just do good all the time could you stop it right there so wow so according to him jesus is plan b yes so according to that logic jesus is plan b yeah that adam and eve messed up and god and trinity were like oh what are we going to do we just created these people we we created this world we've done all this stuff what are we going to do and jesus is like send me send me like this is absolute garbage and then just just in hopes i i hope they make the decision you know yeah yeah just no and i think that goes back to him being he is a pelagian and so he undoubtedly doesn't believe in god's sovereignty um so that i mean this is where i made it in my introduction statement i said that by denying original sin as joshua church of christ members and other people along those lines of theology do it introduces fatal flaws into your theology regarding other essential uh areas or other very important areas within theology and god's sovereignty is affected by how you view original sin um one thing that i don't think he says in this part right here but i would just bring out his principle joshua believes that death could have taken place without the fall in fact he believes that adam and eve were were going to die without sinning so the issue with that is then death was a part of god's original created order which means it was called good which then first corinthians 15 calls death the last enemy which is not good and then there will be a saying that will come about oh death where's your sting oh death where's your victory if we say that death could exist prior to the fall then we have to also acknowledge that death could exist after the resurrection because it's a garden state there's no hoping system there's no hope in this plan whatsoever with this um and that's that's where the idea that we are born innocent like adam and eve is is undermining the the need for christ yeah it's undermining that need let me ask you guys this and because i'm not too familiar i mean he's one of the first first persons that i've actually heard on church of christ is is he an accurate representation of what church of christ believes across the board yes a church of christ is and it's what you would call a radical biblicist so so by definition we as baptists would are biblicists in in a sense right we want our theology and our doctrine to derive from the scripture a radical biblicist would say uh only the bible like like it was probably a guy uh that i met doing open air preaching reach out to me wanted to have coffee and so i went to have coffee with him and and and he brought his bible he said listen i am not a part of a church i i just read my bible and we started and he and then we started having a conversation and he sounded very church of christ to me and finally i got him to admit he was a church of christ he asked a question he said if all you had was a bible would that be would that be good enough and i said if all i had was a bible yes that would be great it would be fantastic however that is not all that the lord has given to us right because it's one thing and i've been saying this for about the last week and i think i even mentioned it in my sermon today it's one thing to have the words in the bible memorized right it's another thing to know it's one thing to know the words that are in the bible it's quite another thing to know why the words are in the bible that's right right and so we have a such thing as biblical theology historical systematic theology but more in particular specific historical theology right dealing with with what was taking place at the time that these words were written because because everything that was written was written for a purpose and it's the it's the job of the exegete to get into the words of the scriptures to understand the context of the scriptures but also to understand why that's right this book or our peter wrote this book or isaiah wrote the book of isaiah right why were these particular words given at that particular time that's right right you you don't know that if all you have is just the bible and so is it would it be sufficient if that's all we have yeah i mean okay but that isn't all we have and we need to use all that we have so someone like a church of christ would would say just give me the bible and only the bible i don't need to know why these words were in there i just these words even if they contradict to just point there let's go in the in the video where he uh he brought his opening statement because he cherry picked verses yeah do you want me to come back to this part with denine here in a moment or um i mean didn't did we hit it did we we got through part of his answer do you want me to go back to find his introduction which is finally finished that and then let's go back and listen how he took verses where context obviously adam chose through his three will to choose evil rather than the good i mean again this if he's told depravity because they i mean adam didn't have a sinful nature yet he chose evil why you know um psalm 78 30 to 39 says that we are just but flesh god remember that they were just flesh hebrews 2 7 we are made little lower than the angels proverbs 1 10 sinners entice us um genesis genesis 6 12 we corrupt ourselves not that we're born corrupted um first peter 1 14 we're ignorant that's the thing like we were born ignorant just like adam and eve were made they didn't have the capacity i mean they didn't have the understanding of good and evil until god said here's the command don't do this and they did the opposite so i mean no we don't have opponents to evil or good um and no we're not born in sin yeah stop right there yeah and you but that was that's a pretty good example of what his introduction was like just bible verse after bible verse after bible verse which he is in his mind undoubtedly thinking ah this means i won the debate because i talked about bible no you're taking things out of context like that's like that's like me just reading little snippets of kamala harris and saying look how great she is like you need to know context before you can determine if this is a is true in the way that you're interpreting it right and and and i think you brought up to the point i mean you you did a great job in in romans 7 or in romans 5 where you were talking about well basically you're we all have a law written on our heart number one um we are without excuse romans 1 i mean so so it's not ignorance we're suppressing the truth you know that's that's what sin does um yeah let's let's go back and and listen to him in his introduction yeah his introduction didn't oh my yeah you guys ready for baby devil baby devil yeah are we gonna second command violations in this one everyone so you think you know wicks do you really you really know about first up we've got shape as soon as you begin to speak okay now friends if god were going to tell us that man was going to be born in sin that would not genesis 3 be the place to do it in genesis 3 16 to 17 it says unto the woman he said i would greatly multiply thy sorrow and that conception and sorrow should not bring forth children and unto adam he said cursed is the ground for thy sake and sorrow should not eat of it all the days of thy life now we read where he's pain was going to be multiplied and we read where adam was going to have to work harder from the ground but nowhere did we read where god said also your children are going to be born sinners so who added this additional curse of course adam's sin had catastrophic consequences for the human race but his sin did not lead to a redesign of the original prototype since god's workmanship still remains as good as ever deuteronomy 32 through to 4 and james 3 9 and jane and in genesis 4 1 it reads and adam knew eve his wife and she conceived and bared cain and said i have gotten a man from the lord now after being expelled from the garden eve gives birth to a son and as the psalmist says low children are a heritage of the lord and the fruit of the womb is his reward psalms 127 3 and i am fearfully and wonderfully made psalms 139 14 but if children are born and made sinful then what reward is children to parents and how can a child be described as wonderfully made going back to the garden god made man after his image and observed all his creation that it was made very good genesis 127 and 31 and yet even after the fall god still continues to make man after his image and upright genesis 9 6 ecclesiastes 7 29 now we just read that cain was the first child born after the fall so wouldn't cain be a great indicator whether we are born simple or not and genesis 4 6 to 7 it says in the lord said unto cain why art thou rough and why is that countenance fallen if thou do as well so thou not be accepted and thou doest not well send life at the deposit right to these shall be his desire and that's so i think jeff and i were discussing this tonight and i'm gonna put jeff on the spot here maybe he'll remember it um when we were talking about you know all all men were created in god's image in genesis 5 3 it says when adam had lived 130 years he fathered in his own likeness after his image and named him seth what's this what's the distinction between being born of natural generation right there in the image of adam versus uh uh in the image of god in the first place in in the in the but in the previous verses before that so i take the position that adam alone was born well adam and adam and uh not born but adam and eve were created in the perfect image of god and when it says that seth was created in adam's image i take the position that adam the image of adam is the imperfect it's the broken image of god so so so here's what i would say to to prove it so if you would turn in your bibles to romans you want man listen i opened it right to it baby feels amazing when that happens oh my goodness that just happened because a lot of people this isn't i i don't it's not a new interpretation there are other people so my wife thought that i came up with this interpretation and then she read uh jc rouse book on holiness and she saw hey he has your same interpretation i said woman i'm not making this stuff up all right this is huge this really is big yeah this is big all right so in romans 8 verse 29 it says for those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son yeah in order that we might be the first born among many all right so let me let me let me put it like this so are you saying that we're created in god's image but we have to be conformed to the image of god we're created in god's image and we need to be conformed to the image of his son who is god right and so after the fall of adam not only so you know like the whole idea of of being born in adam's curse his descendants are the broken image of of what he was created in and what i like to do is i like to think of it as a mirror so let's just say that everyone who was born they're born a broken mirror and this mirror is a broken image of god right all right and it says that we we are being conformed to the image of his son and my understanding of that text if you keep reading it's speaking about the resurrection of the dead when you and i as christians are wrote are raised from the dead with our glorified body at that moment we are the perfect image of christ absolutely all right so when we're born we're born broken we have a broken marred image of god right there's cracks in the mirror right you can see it but there's defects it's cracked all right and so for the believer as he's being conformed to the image of god in his sanctification those cracks start to heal themselves and at the resurrection he comes up it's a perfect image of god it's a perfect mirror for the unbeliever who was born with that same broken mirror as he's living his life not being sanctified not being conformed that mirror those cracks start to get all the more so that mirror is starting to crack all the more and when he raises from the dead it's dust in other words he stays in the image of the he comes out the ground the perfect image of christ and that i mean the perfect image of adam which that's what uh first corinthians chapter 15 is teaching 100 that's a huge that i love that that's awesome good stuff i'm here every night so come check me out i think we have an ad for you here soon so jake uh i don't know if this is if it's he's saying that it's sam just said doesn't that look lds pictures which oh yeah it does and jake just said it actually is i know that awful art style anywhere lol i don't know i i want to know if this is going to be confirmed or not was was joshua using jw or mormon pictures to describe it well i mean there's kane right i've seen him before i want to address though too like in his argument of genesis 4 -1 that today i've got i've gotten i've born born a child with the help of the lord listen this is a mother who's holding her first child ever and she's praising god for it that's that doesn't mean that the child was made innocent that doesn't mean that at all and especially especially does eve know if kane is kane baby in her arms does she know that kane's gonna go kill abel one day no she doesn't know what he's going to do so what was the promise right before this text eve through one of your offspring the serpent will be crushed there is a potential that as eve's looking into kane's eyes she's thinking maybe this is the sun is this the one is this the sun but no she was holding a viper and a diaper that would go and kill abel the one that was making a righteous sacrifice yeah if you don't get this and you don't see this in the bible man you are are lost yeah good stuff i'm gonna play i'll try to rule over him as from what i understand those that uphold the doctrine of born and sent he said we are utterly indisposed disabled made opposite to all good and wholly inclined to all evil as a consequence of the fall yet while kane's sacrifice wasn't acceptable to god can someone explain how kane was trying to offer to god so that he would be pleased furthermore the fact that sin lurks at the door seeking an opportunity to come in proves that sin has no power over us unless we allow it to more importantly god also told kane that he is capable of living right and that we can rule over sin stop now it said that our intellect okay rewind that go to romans 6 that was weird back up a little bit he basically said that they have that a that a a person being born has power over sin that they choose whether or not they can sin so i went back 15 seconds let's listen if i caught that furthermore the fact that sin lurks at the door seeking an opportunity to come in proves that sin has no power over us unless we allow it to more important sin has no power over us unless we allow it to yeah that that is absolutely crazy so romans chapter 6 let me try and find it and this is talking about the christian the christian we don't we don't have power over sin until we are in christ for the starting at verse 10 for the death that he died he died for sin once and for the life he lives so you also must consider yourselves dealt dead to sin and alive to christ let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body to make to make you obey its passions do not present your members to sins as instruments of righteousness or unrighteousness but present yourselves to god to those who have been brought forth from death to life your members of god the instruments of righteousness for sin will have no dominion over you since you are not under the law but under grace it wasn't until the covenant of grace until it was and was was the point in time where you could actually have the power of over sin dude all right i gotta share this real fast too that was good stuff tom but jake from your church jeff dear beloved jake look at what he just shared with me oh this is off of jw .org

is there a um i don't see where it says jw .org oh yeah it's it's at the top i can't let's show it but it is jw .org

i see it because they're clearly yeah i see it i wonder it has jehovah down here yeah jehovah's servants yeah it's jw .org

and that's oh my goodness yeah well i'm sure jeff correct me if i'm wrong jehovah witnesses came from church of christ is that right no so the jehovah's witnesses came from uh this the seventh day adventist charles case russell was a seventh day adventist however it was the same time frame okay as the the restoration movement out of the restoration movement came the churches of christ which were were uh uh uh cambellites they were originally called cambellites and then you had the charles tase uh helen j ellen j white brought about the seventh day adventist her and her husband and some other folks and charles tase russell who was the the guy that started jehovah witnesses which were they were originally called russellites okay was a seventh day adventist wow that is i can't that is unbelievable that he i mean he is pulling from resource at the same time that his the foundation of his church was being brought up as well that's strange heresy begets heresy yep yeah that's right for sure wow good find jake yeah definitely hey jake's a he's smart guy yes he is all right i'm gonna hit play maybe importantly god also told cain that he is capable of living right and that we can rule over sin now it's said that our intellect body and spirit have all become dead in sin and wholly defiled according to the doctrine of born in sin uh job 624 job 264 says to whom has out uttered and whose spirit came from thee so my question is whose spirit came from adam nobody's because the spirits come from god ecclesiastes 12 7 isaiah 42 5 and he is called the father of spirits hebrews 12 9 our human fathers are men of the flesh they are called the fathers of our flesh so our physical attributes like our skin color eye color hair color and many other physical features are passed on from our human parents but our spirits come from god so if our spirits come from god then shouldn't they be as pure as a source from which it comes unless we are saying that god's spirit is also corrupt now based upon what i'm about to read i do not know how my opponent and others alike believe that children are born in sin due to the consequence of adam's transgression in ezekiel 18 20 and says the soul that sinned it shall die the sons should not bear the iniquity of the father neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son the righteousness of the righteousness should be upon him and the wickedness of the wicked should be upon him you see after god told the jews to not use a proverb mentioned in ezekiel 18 3 the father okay shall not bear the iniquity and and you shall die the one the soul who sins shall die you guys is is that not true do we not it is true we all die every single one of us i brought this out in my rebuttal for just a quick second people die brayden a hundred percent except for christ well christ even died but he rose again he's the only one that died unworthily of death um i would so he just goes on just carpet bombing the audience with bible verse after bible verse after bible verse i bring that up in my rebuttal and i mentioned how ezekiel 18 he's taking out of context because ezekiel 18 is talking to israel about land promises right so what what kind of law do you think this is talking about putting the father to death and not the son to death over and also is this talking about god bringing death upon these people or man bringing death upon these people right it's about the nation managing governing themselves its penal code is what this is this is a judicial law so if a father goes out and commits adultery or eats bacon should we put the child to death should we put the child out of the land with him no that's what this is talking about however and i brought this to him in exodus 34 7 it says i will i will surely not clear the guilty that's right i will visit the father's iniquity upon his children and upon his children to the third and fourth generation so it seems that when god is the one that can bring injustice on someone he actually does transcend just the the father who did wrong but it affects and he brings the consequences of those sins to the children and the children's children and this is in the giving of the moral law the second time after the battle after the after israel had broken the law the first time and so the the thing that i i found that was very inconsistent in this verse and i did a terrible job in my cross examination trying to say this because i couldn't find the bible verse it was the biggest hiccup i had in my cross examination but the soul that sinneth it shall die so if you're a sinner you should die the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father so so the son will not so if you're righteous you cannot be given your father's iniquity neither shall the bit the father bear the iniquity of the son so if the father's righteous the son can't transmit his sin to the father the righteous of the righteous shall be upon him and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him uh gentlemen let me chime in just a second to talk to the chat group i just i just figured out how to add moderators oh cool um i just added three so um y 'all can figure that out go ahead go ahead no you're good so if if listen if it's unjust to put a child to death based off the sins of the father if it's if it's unjust and i asked him this is it unjust for god to transmit the sin of the father to a child and he said yes and i asked him if it was unjust for the righteous to have their righteousness being imputed to a guilty party and he said well i don't know if i'd say unjust isaiah 53 and the suffering servant says surely he bore our iniquity he was pierced through for my transgressions he was crushed for our peace listen if we don't under if we if we think that this is talking about moral law and federal headship and we're going to say it's unjust well then god did something unjust when he transmitted our sin upon christ and christ's righteousness upon us we're blaming justice and this is the very gospel this is the gospel yes yeah ezekiel 18 is talking about ezekiel first of all is prophesying and it's with a nation being taken into captivity into babylon and it's it's saying that it's addressing the people of israel who are complaining is what the the context is there they have this proverb that the fathers uh eat sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on the edge and god says stop complaining about this right he says for your penal code put a man to death that commenced the sin not the son and the man but that doesn't alleviate that god in exodus when he brings the death of the firstborn in the house why did the firstborn live in the house if the father committed a righteous act right that's right the son died that night if the father disobeyed god right look at the pattern of scripture all the way through judges that's a good point when when israel continued to to turn away from the god do what was right in their own eyes they would turn away from their god after idols and it affected generations uh because of their sin because it was the consequences of their sins and until they repented and called that out to god it was the entire cycle all the way through judges it's the exact same thing that's happening here so jake sent me another link i think did he use tell me if he used this picture if this picture came up earlier i'm gonna share this is this another picture that he used uh i'm not sure where's it from j -dubs j -dub stuff wow now is he using oh yeah he did it for joe too yeah this is joe yeah he used another pic he's using pictures from jehovah witnesses that's absolutely insane i wonder if he used all of his pictures is he using any of their content too by the way i'm just wondering maybe he's definitely got their argumentative because it was from joe 26 that he's quoting from so i'm looking real fast joe 36 there joe this is nuts guys i can't believe this believe it bruh good find jake this is this is embarrassing for joshua yeah samuel says all his pictures are from watchtower all his pics are from jehovah wow that's i'm gonna just say it joshua repent and believe in the gospel yeah yeah he's definitely not a brother man he's again i stated this earlier he's just as lost as any atheist right i mean i don't so personally for me so i know some churches of christ pastors that are reformed in their understanding of justification like they don't hold to baptismal regeneration they don't hold to all this stuff that we see i can't name them well excuse me they're not pastors preachers churches of christ preachers i i can't i can't name them because they you know they will get in trouble you know but i've been calling them to come out come out of that right so not all churches of christ right are in the same boat however but if you're if you're bought into this system you're you're not a brother you're not absolutely and i and i'm gonna be honest with you i really have trouble with saying that the ones that are in it but that they hold to a biblical justification are brothers as well because they won't come out of it like they they won't disconnect from it yeah it's like what do you love more you know do you love the truth more do you love your system do you love the the being under the umbrella yeah do you love the fact that you're getting paid to be a preacher right yeah listen get a regular job like like go work at kroger like be better that loves the truth and go plan a church for sure yeah that's right amen man that's nuts and jake good fine brother good fine how do i get the balloons i don't know what you're doing over there i heard it usually goes look i googled it i said why do balloons pop up on somebody's screen and it said it's usually because somebody listens to too much p ditty next sunday we're doing a ditty show we'll get a mean of ditty around tom hey no dibby no dibby oh man oh that's good we're gonna do a ditty show bring your baby oil we need it yeah oh no wait don't you dare leave the baby oil at home don't worry i have to fly with an air air airplane size it's only this big but i'm bringing hundreds of them so don't worry oh my lord i'm in on the graphic bro all right do you want me to hit play or do we want to go somewhere else in this debate wherever you want man i'll tell you what i just i feel i mean i'm not sure if y 'all want to keep going with them but i'm just i do i do want to bring out i did say something that i i really was proud of coming up sorry a prideful in a sense if you're lying to jacob sorry i should have let it keep on playing that was too good this is good um this is just a part of my debate uh the intro that i i thought this was a good section here we'll see and we'll see in abraham and joseph's brothers how sin manifests in even the greatest men of the faith their stories remind us that this sin is not something we learn or develop later in life it is present from birth and has seen so no i did not treat my son's sin as a little thing by excusing him as innocent instead i exposed his sin and told him that he needed to seek forgiveness in christ and prayed with him right there a moment to address sin that could have been missed or possibly reinforced if i denied original sin my three -year -old likewise will laugh when he is caught disobeying lying or stealing his brother's toys and even my one -year -old child will purposely look over his shoulder to ensure that his mother and i are not watching before he tries to do something that he's not supposed to children are not taught these traits but my children inherited this nature through me because my first father adam sinned as r .c.

sproles says we are not sinners because we sin we sin because we are sinners in the infamous story that we all know of isaac newton it is said that while sitting under a tree an apple fell upon his head leading to his discovery of gravity i want to ask the audience this if an apple hit his head what kind of tree was he sitting under surely it was an apple tree i pray that this will strike my opponent's head today why are you a sinner because your family tree goes back to adam who was a sinner in need of ah stop right there that was good though that was real good that was good that was real good that was smooth this therefore shows the need for parents to pray with their children the need to teach them the bible the need to bring them to church and most importantly the need to call them to repent and believe in the gospel in hopes that they might be born again it is unbiblical illogical and very dangerous to believe that children are not born with a sin nature as it elevates their morality uh to that of jesus christ thus lessening the need for jesus's obedience and removing the desire to proclaim the gospel to them the need for christ is for all including children because all people including all men all women and all children are dead and trespassing sins our only hope is being made alive in christ jesus boom boom boom good stuff brayden i safe to say that i i think you whooped him pretty bad thank you all glory to god i hope that he will be regenerate and have faith in christ recognize his own fallenness and also his federal heads fallenness and seek the righteousness that is in christ alone right amen amen yeah man i thought you you know like you slapped him up man i mean it's like the uh the pastor at the church i can't remind me his name again the pastor going arrow arrow well arrow hill yes yeah yeah it's it it's like he said you you have the truth on your yeah yeah you know you know the sad part about it you know it's one thing when when there's pushback from a brother you know it's it's another thing when you're so dug in when you're so blind and everything but you know what would we expect you know an unbeliever to to answer i mean he he's in he's in the natural man the natural man receives not the things of the spirit because to him everything that you had said was right over his head and the sad part about is being i mean hopefully the seed is planted he heard the gospel um clearly presented uh and and hopefully uh well you know now it's up to the lord to do his work and maybe he did maybe he will that's right you know what else i got a problem with if you bring up something about my small hands listen i'm not going to mention your small hands good lord i was going to mention only two out of the three of open air theology have yeah have done a public moderated debate one of us is a sissy i've been saying this for the longest time are you trying to look for a debater right now jet tom yeah are you trying to debate a deer you got him until braiding gets there and look i'm a chokehold here and bring it to you and let you debate it right then and there if anybody wants to do i don't we have uh don't we have some some armenians that want to do something on calvinism soon yeah so jake jake came with me today he said he found uh these three guys one of them reminded him of braden one of them reminded him of you and the other one reminded him of me and they do oh no no jake came to you and said one of them was really handsome he reminded me of braden the other ones were a little ditty and get a little little ugly wait a minute wait a minute i'll tell you what whoever that guy was to remind me of me i'll take that old dementia guy anytime i wanted to debate i'm talking about joe biden right now i'm challenging him right now any dementia guy wants to talk to me about i challenge joe biden right now tom that's a dangerous game because if it's a lose -lose situation if you win you beat up a dementia dude if you lose you lost to a dementia dude yeah i mean it's not i'm ready i'm ready i'm ready get the old dementia guy on here i'm ready to go oh man y 'all what are their names what's the youtube channel's name or what is it jake jake are you still on buddy i think he's still on we're relying on you jake we don't know these guys he sent me i've never watched these guys let me go to it he sent me a link we don't know these guys we never watched these guys but listen if three armenians want to get on and debate three calvinists it's the it's the the e the evangelical armenians is what the show's called let me i'll have it let's do it post it put it on the on the screen we get a uh a non -bias moderator he's gonna send you the picture oh yeah oh yeah okay yeah get it to me i can get it i can get it done are you sending on facebook i'm gonna put it on the uh on this uh uh crap i had a joe biden i'll put it on youtube i'll debate jeff anytime on calvinism here it goes i just sent it hey yeah oh dude that's a good one tom you should debate jp uncut again the calvinist killer let's do it let's do it that guy's whack did you send it yeah i sent it it's on i sent it to the youtube link the the what on open air theologies what you gotta get click on open air theology i don't know if y 'all know what that is hey listen how about you do this can you go to the private chat in this this thing and send it through our private chat section because then sure well it'll be easier so no i can't send him a screenshot on messenger so you post it i'll put it on my i'll send it i'll do it on youtube i mean on the comments on facebook on the comments for this video yeah on my facebook page my face you're losing me right now i dude i don't know how to get you brayden do you see the link i'm is it the link hold on here i'm posting i'm gonna i got it i got it i got it right here i got it i'm up it's coming let me get it all screened up now on my side gotta hit present screen share there you go thank you tom jeff do better next time hey hey look i can only do what i do i do it yeah look look at these jack legs i already know what i'm like which wait wait which one is brayden the one with the small hands hello welcome to the society for evangelical armenians youtube channel i'm dan chapman and i'm excited my uh co -host uh chris uh chris good to see you again as always and then also welcome back to the program uh jim pearl oh i'm oh yeah let me have the bottom all over it i guess i'm the dude in the blue i guess i'm the bald dude let's reach out to him we're calling you out let's go yeah jake had a long conversation so i think if you go really into this mess i mean towards the end jake is interacting with him in the messenger oh cool all right yeah so right there there it is that's j getting into a car with a seat belt right it's we want to go he manufactured a car yeah we might have to do one on them i'm sure they're not on millennial either well i'll i'll do any one of them on millennialism too i think you need to debate your son on millennialism who kevin kevin who kevin hayes yeah dude i'll be kevin hayes on millennialism absolutely but i'll say the number one motive from my experience oh he's going off his experience i don't like him let's get him let's go and they tried to get away from that fear by claiming that it's not possible there's tom that seems to be the number one motive that i encounter i see that's the only motive for osas for sure oh yeah i think there are more calvinists that are calvinists because of one saves always saved than they are for the other things there's a comment here that i really think we should share yeah let's share jake yeah he's coming at you he's coming at me and he's welcome to come at me two things jake one since when is doing the wise thing that god wants you to do something to criticize i mean show me in the bible where where you see a prophet or an apostle saying how dare you you think you did the right thing and you did and you did what god wanted you to do and we're going to scold you for that if they burned you they burned you jake jake you got answered and i'm surprised you're even going to jeff's church still being an armenianist now yeah marlon's watching marlon get these guys we're ready to debate all three of them we want to do three on three open air theology versus uh some armenians topic yeah what is the topic topic is uh who can smoke more cigars they probably smoke cigarettes what is going on listen we ain't right okay you mean y 'all pastor churches well all right so um yeah let's close out with some questions anybody got any questions hey thank you guys for letting me look at a review of the debate i appreciate you everybody i appreciate these two guys for watching i appreciate you you are part of open air theology don't be thanking me i'm thinking you guys i can't pull listen so welcome brayden thank you and thank you to the audience for watching and supporting and praying and that was very encouraging thank you like i said i only really got four days this gentleman had months or a month at least several weeks okay i appreciate the prayers thank you guys go ahead now continue on with what y 'all were saying thank you are we that's what i need to know am i a part of your besties well don't be well i have another group chat that i go and hang out with people at conferences with and uh and when i'm hanging out with them i will not answer your phone call i mean does that listen does that make you guys my besties or does that seem like you guys are my second hand friends sounds like we're chopped liver ah all right well bribing tom to me i mean we were literally right behind virgil walker walker's preaching brayden's calling me up how come you're not answering tom i thought i was more important than virgil but apparently i was right under the pulpit i couldn't i couldn't answer all right i haven't watched him okay yeah is marlin still watching hey there's melissa on facebook what are you doing girl um oh guys we should we should so all right maybe next sunday let me let me throw this out as a as a oh no another braiden show let's talk about steven anderson next sunday didi and steven you don't what you don't know who steven anderson is tom no are you kidding you're into the ifb world he's the guy that debated james white he's the guy that stands on top of his pulpit shouting about calvinism okay he's had a huge thing he's a huge he's very well known very popular he's known he's known as the hate preacher is what i've seen people call him he just look michelle just commented the hate preacher so yeah the hate preacher he just had a whole bunch of stuff come out that him and his he's a abusive man um him and his wife were abusing their children they're now out of the house and are blowing everything up it's bad but we can talk about didi and steven anderson and goes hand in hand okay i haven't heard anything about the steven anderson thing oh you haven't oh yeah i know about it it's blown up yeah um another thing we could talk about is uh what people are calling replacement theology yeah let's see what this is saying children love god with all their being and their neighbors as themselves do children love god with all their being and as themselves no yeah yeah and i brought nicholas that was something i brought out in the debate children do not do that that's a law that's universal that's over everybody children do not do this adults do not do this grandparents do not do this and that's the underscoring fact that we need christ the only way to love god with all of your heart with all of your soul with all of your mind and with all of your strength according to first john chapter 3 verse 23 is to believe in the name of the son jesus christ amen so unless somebody believes in jesus they do not love god and those who believe in jesus guess what they do they love their neighbors they love their neighbors as themselves that's right true believers in jesus christ do not have a dead faith right that was a great question yeah go check out the debate yeah great question dude i already i've already got a thumbnail that i'm gonna make for next week it's gonna be diddy and stephen anderson holding hands holding bottles of oil it's gonna be all awkward stephen anderson's gonna be standing on top of the it's gonna be good i don't i can't believe you don't know i'm sorry like i do think less of you now you didn't think much of me before this is true he's the guy he's the guy that like has the up sitting down if you pee sitting down you're not a real man oh my gosh oh my gosh dude i don't like bugs i'm not going to texas that thing got carried right in a way that thing's bigger than my hands you i'm sitting here sitting here that's not saying much so big bug big spider i think we have a question here let me pull it up no well let me look do you guys believe that a man can turn god away when he convicts them of their sin so yes well is it convicting of their sin onto salvation like is he calling them because in john 5 he says all that the father has given me i lose none and he says that if you were called he will surely raise you up on the last day so if the conviction of sin is coming about from the holy spirit calling you then no you can't turn that away because you will be raised up in the last day however god can use sin or can use law to convict people and they can become more hearted so i guess it just depends on what you mean by that question if it's the way that i was taking it was from from the point of view of a christian speaking of christian who has fallen into sin so can you can a person well he's not gonna so i think the westminster confession probably uh yeah westminster confession says that we can we can fall hard but we will not fully and finally fall away you know the six west minister john what are you doing you presbyterian what is going on with you today you hang out with your besties too much and look what happens you're a presbyterian now i'm not a presbyterian you just our we have the second london the superior confession of faith i'm alone am i not oh geez you want to debate is that what you want to do no we cannot fully and finally fall away from if we are already had too much now i didn't believe that someone so so just to give a football term i believe that that a christian can stiff arm the holy spirit in the sense that he can he can so in like in galatians where it says that uh you what does it say about the holy spirit you have uh you've agreed you've grieved the holy spirit so he's speaking to christians who are listening to false teachings through the judaizers so when he says that you have agreed the holy spirit what he is not saying is that you're no longer a christian he's just saying that you're you're not listening to the holy spirit right and so and so a person can be in sin and be convicted by the holy spirit and continue in sin until the discipline of god comes upon them because it's one thing to be convicted by the spirit and and then there's quite another thing when god uses that that rod his rod to discipline us let's hear what the west minister says go ahead tom wait what does he say listen no so she knows it more than better than you so so cannot he's just asking can a man decide not to be saved oh oh no that's what he's asking then now where's that at where's that irresistible grace um did he put that up there yeah i didn't see it i that's where i'm saying it just depends on what way he's asking the question he's asking if it's unto salvation meaning that the the call of god for you to come unto the sun god determines so let me answer it this way if god determines to save you fred can can you thwart his will no no you cannot it's it's impossible if god is calling you unto himself you will come um you cannot you will have you will have a new heart you will have affections all all done by the holy spirit uh zekiel 38 what is somebody else saying something no orthodox mccarthur just said something what did he say he said if anderson gets charged he'll be wishing he could be sitting down sorry that caught me off guard listen you gotta pay attention to what we're doing i know that what just got me i was oh my gosh you got me looking around dude smack it with your west minister confession ain't enough you guys see that thing tom i'm not gonna come to texas if you don't kill that in your bed i'll take a shower don't you dare he's going in your room when you get here i will kill an axis deer and put it in your bedroom if that happens yeah so concerning his question i think you also need to answer the question uh what does it mean to be saved right so so so to be saved salvation like the root of it means to be rescued right so so so like if someone so if a kid is playing in the middle of the road and the car is about to hit the kid and i run out in the middle of the road and grab that kid out of the road and keep the car from hitting that kid in one sense you could say that at that moment i was that kid's salvation i had to rescue the kid what are you laughing at hey marlin what's up anyways a big problem in christian circles is they don't understand what it means to be saved i had a guy uh walk up on my porch one day he didn't know that i was a christian and he asked me he says are you saved and i turned around real quick he was like what are you doing i said save for what is someone trying to kill me no he says no have you received jesus christ as your savior you can pray this prayer and i was like get off my porch you idiot anyways to be saved means that you have been rescued all right and if and if that's the term given to us about about our our being in christ it means that we were dead in our sins yeah and we have been made alive that's what salvation is right that's what ephesians chapter 2 is speaking about salvation we were following the prince in the power of the air who is the devil who is at work in the sons of disobedience which is what we were but but god has made us alive that salvation we have been rescued in by the work of jesus christ and if that's what it is then there's no way that you can stiff arm god there's no way that you can resist that because we were following the course of this world following the prince in the power of the air and guess what god did for those who are saved he made us alive he made us alive yeah and we come we come to him when that takes place we come to him happily and rejoicing because if your eyes were once blind your heart was once stone and your ears were once death when the gospel call penetrates and your heart is made flesh you rejoice and praise and glory to god it's not a lot of times people paint the calvinistic understanding of soteriology in this light of saying well we're we're being dragged yeah you are but when you experience it you are rejoicing you are so thankful unto god for what has taken place right um i mean think about yeah mazarus being raised yes it's all it's all on the road to damascus like there's several occasions of like people who were hell -bent against god and then god changes their heart now they are totally different they reject their sin it's remarkable and god regenerates a sinner uh just in case anybody's yeah i'm leaving the tarantula alone i i don't touch it i hate bugs i don't like bugs go get a blowtorch dude you gotta get a blowtorch i gotta i gotta i don't think this this yeah this but are you sure that thing's not a dog dude that would get it it's huge i am not going near it dude oh you know what you should do does debbie have any hairspray oh she's got the pump she's got the what the pump the rave yeah that thing is huge i i this thing might kill you when you get here dude you better that thing needs to be dead before i come that's not okay dom i will not i will not be to your house during that time i'm gonna get the westminster confession and smash it i didn't want to say thank you marlin marlin's watching so just thank you moder uh marlin for moderating that debate it was a blessing to be able to come on thank you again marlin can you i can't reach it yeah my wife's out here rescuing me can't do it stop it debbie come on man you gotta act like a man you don't open up theology it's on this chair give it away don't mess with it seriously what are you gonna do with it what is going on right now ladies and gentlemen i want to publicly apologize for tom all right let's look okay so he asked that question and then he brings up this verse so let's address this verse because he's looking at it in the wrong context so so if you go back my friend to verse 35 he mentions all that the father gives me will come to me all right so this is the context so in the same way that a door needs hinges to open and shut we need the giving to the son in order to come to him and so we look at that we we experience our coming to christ we absolutely come to christ we absolutely believe and so and so and so what he's talking about right here as you get into it he starts speaking in a way well especially in chapter six he's giving euphemisms right believe uh i mean uh uh eat of his flesh drink of his blood their euphemism for believing our coming to jesus is our believing in jesus but we can only believe in jesus if we have been given to jesus by the father all that the father gives me that would be an eternity pass will come to me in present time when when the gospel is given and so you have to harmonize those two those two truths given to us in scripture that's right i'm sorry i'm the only listen it's bad when i'm the sensible one okay like that there's something wrong with our show when i'm the sensible one tom's in total shock right now i can tell you what's wrong with our show is that it's got jeff rice and tom shepherd in it oh man what other questions we got uh what do you look say look behind me for you didn't see the thing behind you jeff i'm gonna have to go stand and take a shower man i'll tell you like if i feel anything chrome that's not funny michael good lord oh all right you're crazy all right well we ended there i don't see anything else so might as well oh biblical case what are your thoughts on the biblical case for pacifism i disagree with it we're told in the bible to protect the innocent and part of loving god and loving our neighbor is protecting uh loved ones from evil and wicked men so if somebody broke into my house and is trying to hurt my nearest neighbor he going bye -bye he's no longer going to live most likely yeah um and that's just i'm so glad you didn't say he was going to unlike him i i just cannot stand that kind of language oh i'm happy you interrupted me you're welcome i do what i can do and i can do it yeah what biblical case oh the biblical case that people try to argue from is that jesus says turn your other cheek that kind of stuff yep jesus says go by sword yep so okay i take it for the turn if you think that way you're saying that they have to get saved right away what he says okay so i take it all right i i i don't understand the question concerning the context of what we were talking about if they so yeah so salvation number one isn't a process yeah salvation is not sanctification right so the process i think i think what he's saying is that we could be given to the father we we could be given to this grab me if i'm wrong we could be given to the sun but that process plays out in time it's going to be in real time yes yeah yeah so the given takes place in eternity pass right all right we are called to him in the presentation of the gospel right whenever that call man that's going to whenever when the call is given those who have been given when the call is so so so me as a preacher behind the pulpit and i go out in a street preach when i proclaim the gospel i am calling man to repent and believe i am called i'm preaching the gospel calling them to repent and believe if they have been given to the son by the father in eternity pass if that's the moment when they hear the gospel they will come to jesus christ how and repentance and faith that's right boom uh let's see so yeah so somebody's presented the gospel god is going to choose when he's going to declare that person righteous so it's it's not again it's not left up to to the man it's it there's going to be a point in time when god will declare that person righteous through faith at the appointed time that he grants that person to be able to like like jeff said earlier he makes a person alive that person being made alive is being granted faith and repentance so you were dead in your trespasses and sins in which you formally walked according to the course of this world according to the prince of power they are the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience says among them we too all lived in the lust of our flesh indulging in the desires of the flesh and of the mind and were by nature children of wrath like god being rich in mercy because of his great love with which he loved us made us alive he made us alive by grace you have been saved and he raised us up with him and he seated us with him in the heavenly places in christ jesus so that in the ages to come he might show surpassing riches towards us and guys for by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves that is the gift of god so he grants you right to believe he grants that he gives you that faith we think people are born again so yes we're born into it unless a man is born again he cannot see nor enter the kingdom of god all right so let's move on to mcarthur he asked thoughts on deaconess i'm against it i'm against it and here's and and here's why because if you're for deaconess you have to also be for women pastors because in the i got a little hand raised okay go ahead okay women can be servants they can serve the church in different ways but they cannot be in the office the office of deacons no absolutely not because if you look at that passage in timothy so he addresses elders then he addresses deacons and then he says and their wives who's so the question is who's the theirs and so i would take the brayden was what we had this conversation uh actually brayden kind of point me pointed me pointed this out to me um that that the theirs is it has to be speaking to both the deacons and the elders right or else he's only so why would he lay out qualifications you know so immediately after he he talks to the speaking of elders he speaks with deacons and then he speaks to wives or women so these women have to be the wives of the deacon and the elders and so and so there's not just qualifications for uh the elder the man's become an elder or the deacon or the man become a deacon but also his wife also has to meet qualifications for the man to become either an elder or a deacon and it's part of managing your household well if your wife is not if she's gossiping and slandering and doing a whole bunch of wicked things a pastor is disqualified so yeah everybody yeah uh orthodox oh uh so hold on so fred are are people born into hell yeah until until god born into hell that doesn't make sense so all all people deserve hell all people deserve to go to hell unless god intervenes in a person's life and chooses something chooses not chooses not to unless god intervenes and leaves and and pulls them out of their sin and and makes them alive and in other words he will leave them to themselves they will he will leave them to exactly what they want to do which is sin because they love their sin sin more so until god this chooses to save some um to to make some alive and intervene them and and cause them to be born again that person is going to go to hell and so they're leaving to themselves yeah and i would also point out this is why the act of impassive obedience of jesus christ is so important because if you leave out and most people will they'll talk about jesus dying for them so they speak about the the passive obedience but the act of obedience is some is is the one thing that they leave out and which brings this to a fuller picture right he lived the life that we could not live meaning that the law that we could not keep christ kept in our place as a substitute and then he goes to the cross and he dies taking the punishment that we deserve in our place as a substitute if that happens for everyone guess who doesn't go excuse me guess who goes to hell no one absolutely no one if he has lived the life that you could not live and taken the punishment that you deserve there is no hell everybody goes to heaven that's universalism but if you hope to the passive obedience of jesus christ you have to you have to understand that he did this for some who are the some those that the father chose we're harmonizing scripture and that's the only way that you can see it or you're you're left in a conundrum that you cannot get out of so in order to have that position that you take if you if you if you just look at the act of obedience you're going to end up being a universalist i had to come inside and pull and grab my chair my computer was gonna go dead no it's by grace through faith grace is god the act of grace takes place in regeneration in regeneration god grants to us faith i would i would encourage you to go to the gospel truth and listen to the debate i had with jason bretta where i where i took his lunch money from him i took joshua's dinner money from him tom don't have no money no money no money i would like to go back to the question of macarthur orthodox macarthur asked on it i so hold on let me find it what was it i might have missed it was regarding the whole deaconess stuff uh he said but they are by de facto de facto co -servants with their husbands just uh not hold the titles in your view uh no in one sense so there's no like i i i cannot stand it when a woman's like oh yeah almost like announcing when when somebody becomes a pastor well it's the pastor and the pastor's like wife like almost grouping her into this title essentially right that she's the pastor you see what i'm saying like not not exactly i wouldn't say but um women can teach in certain contexts they cannot have authority over the church they can't hold an office over the church a deacon has an office so people within the church can serve within the church but not have that authority over a over ministry in that sense i would also even say that women are not equipped to hold that office for sure so when we go when we go to romans uh is it romans 16 that talks about phoebe being a deaconess regardless wherever it is it says that she's a deaconess tom pointed this out which i think was expertly done the government in romans 13 also is called a deacon a deaconess a servant right uh it's the in the masculine but anyway regardless they're called a deacon as well and so uh we are not saying that the government is a deacon in the office of a deacon in the church for the church no so it in that context it seems to be that it's a woman who went and excelled in serving and serving and that should tell us that women can serve in the church and and excel in it do wonderful things for the church serve god in those capacities but she cannot hold a position of authority such as a deacon position she cannot have hands laid on her to be set apart for that for that office right so fred asked another question repent repentance isn't faith no yeah let me pull that up yeah yeah repentance is not faith uh they are the two two sides of the same coin they go together you can't have one without the other you're going to have faith you're also going to have repentance if you're going to have a repentance you're also going to have faith and jeff jeff has a good explanation on this too yeah so repentance so you know the greek word the root word is metanoia means to change the way you think and the way i like to say it like my hand can't reach out and grab like this phone holder that i have unless my my mind causes the nervous whatever takes place for my hand to move so my my mind has to control my hand in one sense my hand can't do something that my mind ain't causing it to do right so so in repentance so so the initial salvific repentance i would argue isn't turning from all sin but it's you stop trusting in whatever it is that you're trusting in and you turn to god by looking to jesus christ trusting in jesus you can't turn from something to nothing you can't believe in something unless you turn from something so they go hand in hand and once a person becomes a believer right they they stopped like braden had to stop trusting in mormonism and put his faith in jesus turned to god by putting his faith in jesus christ when brayden did that that was given to him by god however from that moment forward brayden has been repenting of his sins so so then initial repentance would also stop trusting in something and trust in jesus christ and i would cause ask you to read the merrill controversy the whole christ by sinclair ferguson will kind of give you the gist of it so and i would also even say that not not only that it would also include turning away from the sins that that you love so much turning in your own self -righteousness turning yeah yeah so the turning from sin for sure yeah but but it's the the the initial like the repenting of sin so like um it's so i would say it would be an affection of the heart that you're turning away from the sins that god hates turning towards christ and following him turning away from one thing turning towards christ yeah but yeah but my argument would be that that a person cannot turn from sin as an unbeliever exactly yeah you see what i'm saying like i would agree with that like but you know when i became when i was a became a christian i was i was still and you know i wasn't like active active but i was still a gangbanger sure i had a status i had to stop trusting in myself and then i tried but the affections of your heart you would agree yes so the affections of my heart took place then yes and then my the life that i live my sanctification and sanctify god sanctify me he reveals sin i turn from sin that's revealed to me yeah and so that's the ongoing process the initial process is that you turn to you stop trusting whatever it is that you're trusting me like brayden had his turn from uh mormonism i had a turn from me like i i was my god i was the leader of a gang um i mean i had a really bad god complex only six people to could talk to me anyone else they get the hands they get hands put on them and it wasn't oh lord it was you know like i had problems okay i had a i had a turn from me i had a turn from the man in the mirror and turn to god that's repentance turning to god and faith is me trusting in christ yeah i pull up nicholas's and then let's go to um i do have to get off here in a moment guys okay so real quick nicholas says uh so i might say that the core of repentance is coming but the connotation of the word emphasizes changing our mind about our sin understanding our need for the savior yeah but that yeah i would say that that's you're talking about in a moment when the regeneration takes place right regeneration takes places is that god forgives us of our sins yeah so this is you know he sprinkles us with clean water he removes our heart of stone which i would say is self -righteousness this is our turning he gives us a heart of faith which is our believing in jesus christ and he puts his spirit in us that causes us to keep his command absolutely yes all right and i would say it's that or it happens in that order because the bible teaches that the holy spirit comes to those who believe yes again watch my debate yes all right so the holy spirit in us causes us to keep his law that means it's causing us to turn from the laws that we're breaking right so that's that turning repenting from sin it's one thing to have a sorrowfulness for sins i mean that's going to happen in the beginning but the actual walking it out turning from the sins that's happening after you have become a believer i would i would agree i'll die on that hill so fred just said so you're not like like some uh some i've you're so you're not like some i've talked to you i've talked to calvinists that believe god predestined some to hell and some to heaven so when you think about when you think about god choosing some choosing some to to have a relationship with him that that that that special relationship with him that he's going to dispense his grace on a particular people um when you look at that the the opposite end of that is is he's he's passively leaving the rest to their own sin so yes romans 9 it just says that he's prepared some vessels for destruction and some vessels for glory and then paul says well what are you going to say oh god why have you made me like this and he says who are you oh man to answer back to god well the thing that has created santa is creator um what does it say why did you make me like this why did you make me like this thank you um yeah ultimately we're talking about the creator who is infinitely greater than anything that you and i can even think of and he created us meaning that we are infinitely lower than him and he still died for us so it shows the magnitude of his love for us found in jesus christ but at the at the end of the day we have no right to say god or why if if god has chosen for these four if he's chosen three of these coins to save well he's chosen to save three of these coins he's going to choose these three for his own purposes he leaves the one to itself so he didn't intervene in this one life he gave them what they wanted this this person right here wanted exactly what they wanted they loved their sin more than christ he left them in their sin he chose to save these all four deserved hell but he chose these unto himself i hate the analogy to him you need to work on that i hope you don't use that in your future upcoming debate with jp uncut it works and and i'm 75 cent pritchard oh that's a good point good point all right guys i gotta get off yeah we'll just go ahead and call it um last words go check out my debate if you haven't watched it already go check it out mon marlin's channel the the gospel truth uh go subscribe on there also if you live in the ventura county area in california more park more specifically go check out grace bible church uh if you live in southern idaho come check out valley baptist church i have a youtube channel called reform vex mormon it's a blessing to be on here with these guys on open air theology uh seriously you guys are a blessing love you guys you are my besties and i do not put you in second place i'll now pass it to tom let's hear what you have to say on this topic so i would say to fred i can because i don't know who you are um if if you're looking at being a christian from from the front end and and as to whether or not you're saved everything i dude repent and believe and you'll know that god did that in your heart your your responsibility is to repent and believe the gospel your responsibility is the call on christ to recognize that you're a sinner and that you need a substitute you need his perfect righteousness put on your account and if you do that instead of getting into the debate is how does he do that looking at it from the front end you will know that you are his because you have faith because he is granted that faith and so i would say that to call on him today if you if you don't know him is that your last words that's my last word and you guys are my besties just in case you guys know you guys are my besties and yeah and i i love you i love you guys i love all you guys out there too you guys are my besties well i guess i better begin with i can tell you guys now what i'm getting you for christmas don't let me say it are you gonna let me say no bracelet and i got 75 yeah so so so hashtag no diddy because the way that they said it sound really gay i would consider y 'all my besties all right so now that we got that out the way no yeah again thanks everybody for uh watching checking us out we really love interacting with y 'all it's been a blessing some of y 'all reached out to us privately uh talking about the show thanking us uh if you if there's a subject that y 'all want us to touch on please reach out to us also um remember the conference coming up in february open earth theology conference uh so you go to open earth theology conference .org