Western Society and The Continuing Spiral into Moral and Ethical Chaos.

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Discussed the continuing spiral into moral and ethical chaos in Western society, looking at a few “evangelical” examples, followed a number of interesting rabbit trails, and eventually ended up back with…Brian Zahnd’s opening statement in his debate with Michael Brown.

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00:33
Welcome to the dividing line on a Thursday afternoon last program. I have a blank screen up there have no idea.
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What's what's going up with that, but Last program for quite some time for me.
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Anyways, I am headed to South Africa, I'm wearing my South African rugby rugby
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Jersey again today The folks down there were kind enough to provide to me last time
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I was there I'll have to try to remember to bring it with me because I'm sure I'll be treated much better As they go to the airport if I'm wearing this land in Joburg Now you're a native come on in you know, don't worry about but So I've gotten enough links, all right to the
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Sorbo thing I'll talk about You don't don't send me anymore. We'll get there in just a second
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I don't know how much I can say about it because movies not out or anything like that Well, we'll look at that in a second but first as I said next
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Monday evening I head for Johannesburg it's a long trip to get there
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Not I didn't sit down with it, but I'm I'm it's looking like a minimum 24 hours in the air plus I don't know two five seven
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Yeah, we're looking looking right around 32 33 hours something like that I think to to get there your total times 32 hours with five hours layover in London And that's it.
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The rest is in the air 32 hours of what 32 hours total one way, right?
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Okay. Yeah, so you're you're you're 28 hours in the air Yeah, it's about 47 hours in the air. Yeah for about 14 each.
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Yeah. Yeah Yep, long trip and then back again. So put that together and that's a couple days and your arms will be tired
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Oh, I'm arms will be very tired. Yes But anyway Really looking forward to to getting down there there is we're gonna be doing so much the
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The list of things the the debates the topics are very very good
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We're hoping to have you know, we still don't have some of the actual, you know one of the debates
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You know, obviously the debate in the masjid has been available for quite some time but the debate at University of Pretoria Still trying to get that So this time hopefully we'll be able to do it differently and I'll be able to just maybe did you get any?
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Information on that and are we gonna send? Okay. Alright, hopefully send some SD cards with me Can you imagine we can do that with little cards in words really weird?
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anyway but Yeah, lots of lecturing lots of debates and I don't think
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I'm down there quite as many days That was last time. I'm not sure It's close It's close.
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But I said, I'm only I'm only gone one Sunday I'm only gonna miss one Sunday. I get back on a
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Saturday. I think so. Well what's left to me live back on us? but Anyhow Really?
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And of course this time we're gonna be both in the Johannesburg area and then down in Durban as well
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So well, there'll be two two areas that will be there in South Africa We've got a worldview conference again
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Like I did last time had a great time at that Just hopefully be a real encouragement to the church down there.
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But also if all the debates come off as scheduled that'll put us over the 140 moderated public debates mark
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And these are actual debates go watch listen to We can identify the people that I debated the locations
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I have debated in in, Nebraska but we actually have evidence of that and My the person
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I debated named Jerry Matitix will will confirm that fact I remember the sweater that I wore the second night.
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I debated Jerry Matitix in Omaha because it was cold in Omaha But I did not debate
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Shabir Ali in Omaha just say it just say it that was that was before my
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Islamic activity So anyway, so keep in mind what's coming up we've got
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South Africa next week and Then shortly just a couple weeks after I get back
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We need to I I know I know it's all up to me to do all this stuff but We need to have some information up as soon as we can on the trip that I'm going to be taking at the beginning of November and If this if this calendar program is actually synced
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Which it doesn't look like it is unfortunately Yeah, that one that one not that one not work.
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Let's try this. That's It doesn't know what's going on. Oh This one works good.
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Yes Don't know Probably Yeah, I'll be at Trinity Fellowship Church on November 1st, that's in New Jersey and The I've got a debate with on Islam with Shadid Lewis and Gonna be doing something for Hope Reform Baptist Church on Long Island Cornerstone Church debate with Shadid is on the 8th, by the way of November and then
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I'll on the 9th. I'll be at New Hyde Park Baptist Church in Morning, and in the evening,
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I think I'm supposed to Be with brother more than Edmore North Shore, I think
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I think So and there might be some other stuff in there. I don't know but Gonna be a busy trip
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New Jersey and New York, New Jersey, Long Island beginning of November and then a couple weeks after that Off to Kiev and Berlin and Get home from that and a couple weeks after that Norway and then the g3 conference in Atlanta I had a couple months off from visiting with the
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TSA folks and They've been missing me. And so we're gonna we're gonna renew our our close personal relationships over the next number of months and my frequent flyer accounts gonna go boomer once again, and that's just sort of how
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That'll work. So that's what's coming up and Obviously we need your prayers for you know
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The Obviously Funding and you know, there's got to be people involved on the you know boots on the ground seems to be the big phrase these days but Rudolf Busch off down to South Africa and then
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Nick and and Greg White and and all the guys at eBTC and in Berlin because I'm teaching both in Ukraine and flying to Berlin and and We're gonna do some neat stuff there at eBTC again and and then next year
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I'm gonna be teaching me BTC again in Zurich book of Hebrews really looking forward to that so There's all that stuff
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But I'll be honest with you the you know Other than the preparation and a lot of my preparation has just been trying to do more and more reading background stuff
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You know, I've been putting in huge miles because I'm working through some really thick Tough stuff on on Islam right now as far as the the reading goes but the thing that crosses my mind most often is
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What happened the first time I flew internationally I when I first went to London And I you know, we were scheduled me to do this whole thing on cults and isms and all the rest of stuff and and And Wow, I I got sick man.
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Did I get sick? I was really really really sick I mean I did that I did the presentation, but I was sitting down Trying to answer questions in the afternoon
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I said literally I had to call a stop to it because I knew within two minutes He that was gonna pass out or throw up wanted to And that was that was ugly that was ugly and I hate putting in all this effort to do this stuff
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And then you get there and you're sick You know you spend that many hours in a hermetically sealed
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Tube and with people who are coughing and hacking everything else. It's tough not to be exposed So I do everything
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I can to you know You know all sorts of stuff to kill it clean the hands and and I'm doing everything
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I can to stay healthy But it's in the Lord's hands. So if you'd pray for health ability to stay healthy and sleep and and stuff like that and That would really that would really that would really be great.
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I would I would appreciate that So lots of lots of travel lots of ministry coming up your prayers your support very much a part of that thank you for all of you who all of you have given to help make this a possibility and Certainly, we'll be trying to as best we can
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Keep you informed as to what's going on down there in South Africa and with all the traveling we're gonna be doing and things like that, so next
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I I Hear you yesterday Fred Hit me up and said
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I I need I need a commentary Fred Butler hit me up inside I I need a response to this.
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I've never seen it before Let the lion roar
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New movie coming out next year I've seen the trailer.
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I Guess we should have queued up the trailer, huh? That would have been a
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Might have been interesting but Anyway, let the lion roar I don't know what it's about.
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Nobody knows what it's about But some of the stuff that I've read
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Reformers changing the Bible putting anti -jewish stuff in the Bible mistranslating the
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Bible blah blah blah going after Luther and Calvin Kevin Sorbo plays
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Calvin. Oh boy That looks great
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So check out these suggested interview questions part of me wants to go ahead and contact the the media folks and say oh
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We'll interview the author. That's it because the books not available yet Let the lion roar suggested interview questions here.
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They are Tell us about your film. Let the lion roar What is this deception that you describe
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Are you saying we're deceived about the gospel How did you discover this conspiracy?
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What does this mean for the church today? So what would the church look like if this deception was overturned?
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Doesn't this raise difficult questions about Israel Are you saying that Christians are actually
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Jewish? Those are the eight interview questions that are suggested in the press pack for Let the lion roar
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Hey I Don't know you can't refute something that you have not that you have not seen
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But let me take some wild guesses just some wild guesses From some of the stuff
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I've read Evidently, this is an attack upon quote
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Replacement theology end quote which is a lousy term That is generally used by people who are dispensational in their perspective in regards to the nation of Israel, so if you believe that the church is
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The fulfillment of the promises to Israel that those, you know Those troublesome little phrases in Paul like the true circumcision the
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Israel of God, etc Etc, but you're about the church in the New Testament If you actually take that seriously, then you're guilty of believing in replacement theology and you're now guilty for all the anti -semitic acts that have ever happened in the history of the world and so Evidently that's in here somewhere.
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And so I guess they go after Ambrose and Augustine and everybody who
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You know doesn't have what they think is the appropriate eschatology or something like that And so I guess that's what's behind the alleged changes the
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Bible or something. I I don't know It obviously really concerns me when people start making
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Accusations about tampering with the text of Scripture and stuff like that as if Christian scholars just sit around picking their noses all day long and have no earthly idea about the
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History of the transmission of the text even some of the stuff is saying well They're translating from Latin into English and therefore they did this
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I So we'll see maybe some more stuff's gonna come out before then that will give us something you know, who knows maybe if there's if the interest remains high we'll go ahead and Contact the folks and let's find out straight from from the author.
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I think it might be actually Be interesting be interesting to do but there you go
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Here comes another conspiracy film what the lion Roar is going to be coming out and aren't we all excited about that?
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You know Every once in a while. I see an article Over at MRM, I think
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Sharon wrote this against good stuff member inactivity in the Mormon Church. I bet you didn't see this digit On Tuesday 23rd
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September 2014 the blog nearing Colob Took a look at recent more missionary reports regarding a localized church inactivity
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What follows is a summary of nearing Colob's research findings that they gleaned unscientifically from reading
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Mormon missionary blog posts Which is interesting. I am more a missionary blog posts would be an interesting firsthand source of information
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South America Northwest area out of 1 ,800 ,000 members 1 ,000 ,000 did not go to church
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Germany after two state presidents left the church 90 % of the ward in Dortmund is inactive
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Santa Domingo West Mission cities of Ocoa and Parra members are refusing callings six former branch presidents have gone inactive and the small 350 member branch of Parra is basically all inactive
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Gottsdale Arizona 75 % of the reporting missionaries ward is inactive West Virginia most of the wards and branches are comprised of inactive members
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Columbia, California a Columbia Collie Maybe it's Collie most of the ward leaders inactive
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Belgium Netherlands 75 % of reporting missionaries ward inactive Argentina Mendoza Mendoza Argentina 60 .8
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% of the ward inactive Montreal Canada most reporting missionaries ward inactive or borderline inactive
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Detroit, Michigan The reporting missionaries ward had only 30 people at a Sunday service because the rest of the ward is inactive
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Malaga Spain 70 % of the reporting missionaries ward inactive Hazan City Philippines reporting missionary suggests exaggerates question mark that 95 % of her ward is inactive
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Cebu Philippines the majority of the ward inactive Seagoville, Texas an enormous portion of the reporting missionaries ward is inactive
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The article says while this information is likely troubling LDS leaders and perhaps encouraging the critics of Mormonism It does not prove or disprove anything about the truthfulness of the religion
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What it does tell us is that a significant number of Mormons are dissatisfied with their faith Friends people who leave
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Mormonism for a life without Christ No better off in the eternal scheme of things and people who remain LDS and follow a different Jesus These inactivity reports are a poignant reminder that as Christians we not seek merely to lead people away from Mormonism We are called to a much greater purpose
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Our hope and deepest longing is to walk with those who are spiritually lost Helping them along that rough but glorious pathway to new life in Christ The great scope of Mormon activity does not reduce the size of our mission field one bit
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Let us keep our shoulders the plow until the field is ripe and ready to harvest in fact What I would add to the commentary there is in my experience the religiously abused
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Are far harder to reach than the religiously active? Let me talk to a
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Believing active Jehovah's Witness any day Over against one of those poor Jehovah's Witnesses the millions of them that exist out there that are the burned over The burned out they just they're they no longer have ears to hear it.
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They just don't care and so There are big troubles in In Salt Lake City, there are big troubles in Salt Lake City The new direction that started under Hinckley the de -emphasis of The the unique elements of LDS theology that really began under under Hinckley have
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And it's all due to BYU. I mean, it's it's all BYU influence It's you know, there's well as a confluence of things that have come together, but BYU is behind a lot of this stuff
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You know, I've said many times there's gonna be a split it may be the kind of split that just sort of happens
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When you leave a piece of fruit Sitting on a plate long enough that it rots it'll split eventually because it's simply falling apart.
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I mean there are splits that are due to Energy existing amongst people in and these people believe this and these people believe that but it just seems like like Mormonism is just sort of like You know lost its way lost its direction
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Has really nowhere to go because it's never had a foundation Man Fascinating stuff fascinating stuff and I appreciate the perspective that was
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That was taken there as well. It was it was well well said one last thing before we get to to Brian's on You've got to do it
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I Hate when I get a tweet and I have no earth The seven minutes ago.
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Oh, oh, oh, I bet that's got to contact the the guy
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Yeah Contact the author of the of the book movie guy and have my that yeah,
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I'd like to do it I'd like that would be I'd like to find out what in the world the guy has to say because I I looked him up and they're just He's not really written anything of any substance, so who knows
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But anyway, y 'all heard on the briefing this morning, by the way, dr.
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Mohler. I Haven't gotten any of the royalty checks that I'm owed for the wholesale stealing of my copyrighted phrases
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Theology matters You know, it's been been been used a lot but now you're even putting in your blogs the dividing line
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I mean People just somebody in channel was even saying Have we ever seen
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Al Mohler and James White in the same room at the same time? The answer that is no we actually have not so You know,
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I'm getting a little concerned here but on the on on the briefing
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I believe this morning I was rowing during this a particular section of the briefing and there is a reference of course to the publication yesterday of The report from a council in Germany Council members said
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Let's see German Ethics Council calls for incest between siblings to be legalized by government
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Council members said social taboo would still prevent relationships right right
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Patrick schtubing Who was adopted as an infant and met his sister in his 20s has launched several appeals since being in prison for incest in 2008
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His lengthy legal battle has prompted widespread public debate sexual relations between siblings between parents and their children are forbidden under section 173 the
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German criminal code and offenders can face years in prison But on Wednesday the German Ethics Council recommended the section be repealed arguing it to the risk of disability and children is not enough to warrant the law and Decriminalizing incest would not remove the huge social taboo around it
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Now catch that What's the reason now this is this is
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Again I'm repeating what dr. Moller said this morning, but sometimes some people don't listen to dr. Moller the secularist as As we've listened to people
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Years ago. Well a couple years ago. Remember when we played oh, what was that guy's name that Oh Homosexual that went after the kids in the high school and Dan Savage we played
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Dan Savage having a dialogue at some Christians table in his house remember
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This was I don't know two three years ago. I lose track after all and Remember that he was challenged on what basis would you say that?
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two brothers or you know incestuous relationships Would be inappropriate They always struggle because now you're asking them to make a positive
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Ethical moral statement and they don't like to do it other than saying homosexuality is good Natural proper all those other kinds of things
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But normally what they end up saying is well, you know, I don't I don't I don't do the
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You know, I don't think the the incest thing is is good because you can have deformed children. In fact, my understanding is that this this quote -unquote couple
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Two of their children are in fact
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Have problems have problems Which which is like duh you'd think but but That's the argument that's used as well.
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We can't allow that because Well, that wouldn't answer the question Which is an absolutely perfectly valid question to ask of anyone who believes in quote -unquote marriage equality
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In fact, I last night someone tagged me in a Facebook post Someone had posted this equal sign marriage equality.
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I Couldn't comment on it. Does that does that mean they've limited to a certain number of only people that follow them or friends or Is that what that's all about best
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I can tell if if Somebody that's on your friends list likes or comments on one of their friends
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It'll show up in your feed but I can't comment you can't comment unless you've either gone and followed them or You know or you're a friend with them.
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Yeah, I couldn't comment. It's probably best I couldn't Because I just wanted to say this woman who had posted it you don't believe marriage quality you don't believe what you posted
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We've talked about this before But it's a perfectly valid question to ask and I'm gonna ask them. All right
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So if the only reason here is the risk of disability then two brothers should be able to marry, right?
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because there's no risk of disability there because Despite what people say two brothers cannot produce live offspring
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Two sisters two brothers Why not why not a grandchild with a grandson with a grandmother
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Who's no longer able to bear children? See that they they cannot argue against the morality of those relationships
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Because if all you've got is well don't like it because you know, you could have deformed children
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That's that's that's the extent of your moral Problem with this and it is it is
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And Then to say that the Would not remove the huge social taboo around it.
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Really, you know, what would a single best -selling movie
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That would do it. That would do it. How about just a beloved
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Hollywood character in These days with our society That's all you need all you need right, yep, and we already know there's a pretty strong Bestiality movement in Germany as well.
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So there you go incest bestiality polygamy It's it's not
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You know, we've had people mocking the slippery slope argument for like this isn't a slippery slope.
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It is a cliff and We hit the bottom everything goes splat
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And God raises up a society that will listen to him and Puts it in the place of the society that jumped off the cliff and went splat sort of how all that works
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Hmm amazing. Absolutely Amazing well last time we were together
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What? What? This is weird This just did from Chris arts and let's see if you can read that If you can't no, no, no,
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I I think I can ah Well the reasons that I have the
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LG G3 so I can actually see things but I had another pair in here someplace, too Not sure where it went.
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Oh Look at that even through the dust Mm -hmm. Oh Saturday November 1st
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Trinity Fellowship Church, Tom's River, New Jersey Sunday a November 2nd Christian Fellowship Church, North Brunswick, New Jersey Sunday p .m
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November 2nd Grace Reformed Baptist Church Church, Merrick, Long Island November 3rd
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Cornerstone Christian Church, Hicksville, New York What are you doing
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When you're coming when you're done Tuesday Tuesday and Wednesday November 4th and 5th.
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Hope Reform Baptist Church, Medford, New York. That's sort of farther on the island Thursday November 6th
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Word of Truth Church Farmingville, New York Saturday, November 8th Shadid Lewis debate
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That'll be at New Hyde Park Baptist Church Sunday a .m.
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November 9th New Hyde Park Baptist Church Sunday p .m. November 9th North Shore Baptist Bayside, New York that's
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Ed Morris Church and That means I'm going to be Really busy the whole time that I'm there in case you may have noticed going
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Chris. He's just getting started. No, no, no No, there's no No, there ain't ain't much more in there time wise and I approved all those things.
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So So there you go You know the last time I was at Ed Morris You know,
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I don't know if it was the last time I was at Ed Morris Church I've been going back there for so long now
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But there was one time one of the more recent times that I ended up at North Shore I Was so sick by the time
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I got there. It was I think it's the only time I've really functionally not been able to preach because I was coughing so much
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Normally you take something you take some cough suppressant something That was that was rough, but that's also where I had one of the most interesting debates
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Oh, what was that guy's name? Well, I actually
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I've had two debates there one of the Church of Christ guy, okay, so that was Paul Barber Yes, and then there was you think your brother
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Barker know the brother Barker debate those are both the same those are both Yeah, yep. Yep.
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Yep. Yep, and Ed Moore I could I could spend the rest of programs
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We've had some interesting history in Long Island remember the the one trip where I did not sleep on the plane out on the red eye with Warren and I Any idea how short those flights are
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I woke up with vertigo? Yes, I do remember that and it had to stand there and videotape the whole thing with a room spinning like yes the top
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Yeah, but have you ever seen a Baptist pastor dance on a table? I? Have not now that I think about it
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Actually, he wasn't on the table the Italians in the room were in the table while he was doing
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Elvis All righty, then there's a visualization People are complaining we've been derailed once again.
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Oh, we have been derailed, but it's okay. It's alright to be derailed. It's it's okay What was
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I talking about before you came in okay, there's the There's the the schedule coming up in the early
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November so you were transitioning design. Yeah early October South Africa early
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November New York, New Jersey early December Kiev, Berlin mid
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January Norway Atlanta Wow It's one of the reasons
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I took up running Seriously is it seriously is because if all I did was cycling
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I would be really seriously depressed because But so add to the health thing not beating myself up so much running
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While I'm on all these trips and of course the ones in December running in the snow might prove to just Hopefully I could find a treadmill someplace or something.
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I don't know Wasn't that rocky three? Oh, yeah Tire and roll it and yeah, yeah well yeah
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III don't think Stallone was actually doing most of that stuff Oh movie reference. Sorry.
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Oh, yeah. Mm -hmm. Yeah, there's another one I'm sure it'll end up on a certain person's Red go to red go to Zahn Zahn Zahn.
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That's okay. All right, whatever Last time we were together we or the time before no last time
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I read through the tweet exchange that I had with With Brian Zahn and One of the ironies and I'm gonna get picked on for this
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But oh by the way, I I wrote to Steven Anderson and I guess he's put up a blog post
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Where he's admitted that I was not projecting a picture of two men kissing on the back wall during a sermon
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That it wasn't a sermon That basically everything he said was just completely wrong based on he says well somebody told me it was a sermon ad come on By the way,
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I Would not for a second apologize If I had found the picture if I had showed it to people it was in the media
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It was about what was going on at one of our military academies I wouldn't have left it up there the whole time
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But here these men are they are quote -unquote getting married. They're profaning marriage at the chapel of the
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US Air Force Academy I think that's directly relevant to being able to say this nation has
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Spit in the face of God and all his yelling and screaming and everything else
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I could care less just because you scream it while beating on your beaten -up pulpit does not make it relevant or true
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Okay, that doesn't So I wrote to him and I said why don't you come into into the studios we'll talk about it
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So we've been going back a little forth a little bit. I've got a draft of an email written to him
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Haven't sent it yet because I'll be perfectly honest with you I've been sitting here going there's so much in that clip that we played last time that needs to be addressed
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The especially the abusive Approach toward homosexuality you say abusive.
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He just simply said that homosexuals should be stoned I Pointed him to first Corinthians chapter 6
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Where the inspired scriptures in any translation well, maybe not some of the perverted translations of the homosexuals have been putting out but Says and such were some of you.
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Do you really think the Apostle Paul in? Talking and there's a whole list of sins there
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Many of which were worthy of stoning under the Old Testament law not just homosexuality
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Do you think that the only thing Paul said to those Corinthians who had now been saved?
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Was you're worthy to be stoned period and a discussion. No, he proclaimed the gospel to them proclaim the gospel
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I mean liars will not inherit the kingdom of heaven and Stephen Anderson was lying up one side down the other about me
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So he's deserving to be stoned too. So is that all we're gonna say? No, it's abusive to the people that church
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To speak as he speaks But here's the one thing, you know,
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I said, well, you know when I get back from South Africa, you know Why don't we come in and then I started thinking about it.
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We have no common basis He doesn't believe I'm a Christian. I don't believe he is. I Believe it's a little cult.
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He's got over going over there the only my biggest concern Would be a could it be educational worthwhile?
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I'm not sure that it could be be it's the people in that church, but I don't think I can I can communicate with them
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I think they are so tightly controlled that I don't know that they would listen to that program
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But I cannot remonstrate with the man as with a minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
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That's the problem And so I don't know I'm still thinking about it.
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I'm still thinking about it. I just don't know If it'd be even worthwhile, but I'm thinking about Okay, so back to Brian's on sorry about that But we did play that last time and I wanted to let you know that You know, and I even said hey, you know what?
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If you want to call me a pervert and a moron all the rest of stuff How about I come to your church
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I'd do it I'd do it I'd walk into that place.
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I have nothing to fear from those folks and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that when it comes to handling the
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Word of God, all right I can Anderson can't and So if there are any of God's Actual sheep in that congregation
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They'd hear that that's why I don't think I'm gonna get an invitation to do that, but I'd be willing to do that.
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All right We had this interesting conversation with Brian's on and we've discovered that Brian's on does not believe in the persecuted scripture he
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Here was I'm sorry. This is this is what got me off track. Here is what I didn't mention last time that at some point
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Oh, it was when I was trying to get the tweets. Remember we had a whole lot of problem getting
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Trying to put the tweets together and and put it together and I posted on the blog article for the last dividing line. I Saw some of his more recent tweets
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He is writing Introductory material to books of the
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Bible for the new living translation and I think some of them are in the Old Testament really
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The guy that doesn't read any of the biblical language as far as maybe reads
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Hebrew but if he doesn't read Greek pride doesn't read Hebrew and Doesn't know what the
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Tanakh is How much Meaningful reading in Old Testament backgrounds and context.
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Can you do without having run across Tanakh? I mean It's all through Christian works on the
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Old Testament and certainly if you've ever done any reading in Jewish scholarship
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It's there so why Why is he writing introductory materials for publication in some study
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Bible of the well new living translation? That would explain something but really
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I'm I'm left going Wow, that's That that's amazing.
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Okay, so we were listening to Brian Zahn's opening Statement in his debate with Michael Brown.
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We certainly can understand what one of the major issues is now and that is
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Michael Brown believes that you can actually go to the text of Scripture and come up with a doctrine of Substitutionary atonement and Obviously Brian's on doesn't think you can do that his fundamental bibliology is
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Just so far removed It explains all of this, but it's still important to listen to so let's dive back into it here in the last 20 minutes program
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We violently send our sins into Jesus. Indeed. He bore our sins. We violently send our sins into Jesus Christ He absorbs them now
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Michael's gonna ask What does that mean We violently send our sins into Jesus We're where do you find that anywhere inscription
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Where do you find that in Richard Balcombe or any of your favorite interpreters? Which you know when when we challenge your position you just go.
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I'm just agreeing with these guys over here doesn't take responsibility Where did they say that I'd like to see what words
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Richard Balcombe say We violently send our sins into Jesus now.
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I know where the Bible says that the father laid our sin, but violently send our sins into Jesus Okay In his dying breath.
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He reveals the heart of the father father Forgive them for they know not what they do and when Jesus prays father forgive them for they know not what they do upon the
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Jesus is not asking the father to act contrary to his nature instead Christ is revealing to us the very heart of God in that moment
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No one would suggest That even if you accept that phraseology that this is asking
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God to do something other than what would be natural for him to do It is a straw man
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To say that what penal substitutionary atonement means is that you've got an angry father
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And I mean I was I was talking about how this is a misapprehension
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Back at NPBC. Okay. I mean it's been 30 years literally been 30 years straw man straw
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Mannequist Maximus But that's that's what you got. Jesus takes our sin that was violently sent into him down into death
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Shakes it off on the third day. He is raised and comes back to us with the first word of the new world
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Peace be with you We must remember that before the crucifixion of Jesus is anything else this new world.
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There's this I this it's idea Recreation is an element of truth.
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I mean what is one of the titles of of Jesus Prince of Peace What do we have?
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Having been justified by faith in Christ corner Romans 5 1 peace with God. It's an element of the truth it's an important element of the truth, but the problem is when you divorce an element of the truth from the
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Basis that makes it real you make it untrue Why do we have peace because God's holy nature has been satisfied
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Because God himself in Father Son and Spirit has provided Substitutionary atonement so that our peace is a real peace not just a faux peace
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So when you say well, I like this, but I don't like that you can take a part of the truth and end up making it an untruth by detaching it from the foundation that inspired scripture provides and It's frustrating to see it is a catastrophe
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It is the unjust violent lynching of an innocent man. It is the murder of God This is precisely how the
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Apostles spoke of the crucifixion in the book of Acts consider now by the way
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The book of Acts You know the terminology murder of God I Guess the closest you might get to that is
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Acts 20 28 maybe But let me say once again The destructive
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Subjective hermeneutics illustrated by Zond Destroys the
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Trinity Or let's put it this way If it doesn't destroy the
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Trinity it reduces the Trinity to What you feel you'd like God to be like Rather than it being a divine revelation
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Brian's on is Not to be going into any mosques in the near future
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Not gonna be going in any kingdom halls any ward chapels He's not gonna be defending the doctrine of the
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Trinity against its vociferous opponents As he can't
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He doesn't have sufficient foundation. That's why I said to him in the in the Twitter conversation your perspective destroys apologetics
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That's why Brian's on does apologetics against reformed theology not against the critics of the
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Christian faith because that's all he can do and the reason he does so is because we
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Say more than he thinks we can say Given the nature of Scripture all goes back to the nature of Scripture Acts 2 23 this
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Jesus you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men Acts 3 15 you killed the author of life whom
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God raised from the dead Acts 5 30 God raised up Jesus whom you killed by hanging him on a tree
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Acts 7 52 now You're you're sitting here going and then the way in a minute.
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He's not he's not doing Think he's doing Yeah, he is because Remember, let me see if I can bring it up real quick here
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Oh Drat I didn't I didn't I didn't edit that portion This is a oh
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I just clicked on something I shouldn't have clicked on sorry, this is live We've lost our moderator. We can have a free -for -all now
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As long as we're airing offenses, I just do want to throw in that I'm offended the people say that God killed Jesus But there we go
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Found it. I mean you gotta understand. This is just a bunch of blue blocks. I Had not marked it but this when when when
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Michael started his first rebuttal, he basically said he was offended by the
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Monster God language and and all the rest that stuff makes perfect sense So when
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Brian starts his first rebuttal, this is this way says as long as we're airing offenses I just do want to throw in that I'm offended the people say that God killed
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Jesus, but there we go. I Just heard him going through texts in the book of Acts, right and A bunch of you were beating your head on the desk
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Because you know that Acts 4 27 through 28 is in the book of Acts, but doesn't get quoted
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Why because For truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant
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Jesus Whom you anointed both Herod and Pontius Pilate along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel And what does that 428 say?
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the very thing that offends Brian's on Brian's on is offended back 428 to do whatever your hand and your purpose predestined to occur
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Herod Pontius Pilate Gentiles people of Israel what did them what did they all get together and do again?
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um They played bingo. No battleship. No We're talking about the crucifixion and yet he's offended
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Yeah, he's offended that God had anything to do with this that God was in fact in charge of this. He's offended at acts 428
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It's right there And I'm offended when you quote a bunch of texts from the book of Acts that rightly point out the role of sinners because every one of those groups there they were sinners and then ignore the rest of what the text says because the rest of the text says that well
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God predestined it to occur Now he hates Calvinism But the fact the matter is he he hates
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What the Bible says about this subject Now I I went oops and jumped away from where we were so I'm gonna have to get find it here
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The death of Jesus upon the cross was a murder. It was a lynching. It was a mob killing It was a lynching that God knew would happen because he had sent his son into our sinful system
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And that's the sense in which it's a sacrifice. But even Plato knew that no, no, no, wait a minute. No, wait a minute
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Now did you catch that? That's a good spot to go to I think that's where we were I think I'm pretty I wasn't I'm not trying to skip anything if I skipped something
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But I think I was thinking that's that's where we were to catch that The death of Jesus upon the cross was a murder it was a lynching it was a mob killing
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It was a lynching that God knew would happen God knew it would happen
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Why? Sent his son into our sinful system and that's the sense in which it's a sacrifice
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But even Plato knew that such a thing would happen if a righteous man ever came among us because in his
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Republic 400 years before Christ Plato says what would happen if a perfectly perfectly righteous man came into our world
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Plato says he would be scourged fettered and crucified so God knew because Plato knew
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Yeah, it it wasn't that this was God's purpose It wasn't the
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Father the Son the Spirit together covenant to get no known. It's it's Yeah, this this system this sinful system
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Okay, so there is this rap feel that you're really limited to the parameters of biblical revelation
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You want to come up with something new something that's edgy, you know catches people attention and So you get this kind of language?
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So there is this radical aspect of Christ exposing the sinful nature of our systemic sin that we call civilization
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That is shamed at the cross Hmm is is man's
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Depravity and sinfulness Shown clearly at the cross. Yeah But is that what the writers focus upon in this sense
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Like they never even heard of it. So the death of Jesus was a sacrifice, but it was a sacrifice to end Sacrificing not to appease
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God because on Good Friday, where do we find God? Where do we locate God in the drama of Good Friday?
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The drama of Good Friday. It's just like when we get to the Calvinism debate eventually and they talk about The dance
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They everybody even the Calvinists talked about the dance and I just want to go
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Stop already You really don't think that the parameters of Revelation found in Scripture are enough here.
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I mean Now someone in Twitter just asked is on an open theist. I don't know.
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I don't know. Um, my recollection is in the
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Calvinism debate that he said he wasn't but I could be wrong about that Austin says he's open to it.
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So I Don't know. I mean to be honest with you this kind of emergent feel -good ism strikes me as as Almost being too amorphous
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To even answer questions like that Are you restricting me too much, you know that type of a thing?
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I don't know is God in Caiaphas Requiring a scapegoat to bring peace is
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God found in Pilate Demanding an execution in order to protect the Empire According to Acts 428 what
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Herod and Pilate and the Romans and the Jews did God's hand and purpose predestined to occur
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That's the only way we can answer this That's what we Christians the way we can answer these questions
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Or is God found in Christ? absorbing sin and offering forgiveness or is it a whole lot bigger than you're willing to allow it to be because you get to pick and choose what in the
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Bible you will or will not believe 2nd Corinthians 5 verse 19 says that God was in Christ Reconciling the world to himself
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Um The use of the term and there is
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I would say in the instrumental Not locative God was by means of Christ reconciling the world to himself
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Not in the sense of being in Caiaphas or in Jesus in a locative
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Sense Penal substitutionary atonement turns that inside out and teaches that God was outside Jesus Reconciling himself to the world baloney baloney
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I can say that with more confidence now Having tried to dialogue with Brian's on the man just simply is not well -studied
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Just not I'm sorry, you know when when you challenge him on something He says well,
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I follow these guys. Should I follow you? it's hard to respect that and It does explain all the straw man here.
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There are just so many of them. That is not what penal substitutionary atonement does
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The father is always the fount of salvation always the fount of the atoning
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Work itself. It does not turn it inside out
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You're just Choosing well, I I only want an atonement that is that is in two dimensions.
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I won't see it in three dimensions I won't see Fulfillment in in all of these pictures and you'll know
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I that's too complicated I want it black and white one piece of paper Nice in nice thin easy to look at and you end up with this kind of stuff
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If that would be bad enough, but then when you turn in then when you add to it the monster God Crude stuff
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Makes it a whole lot worse Makes it a whole lot worse See this point in the cross.
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God is not reconciling himself to the world. He is reconciling the world unto himself So really what we're dealing with in this debate in this discussion is what is
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God like? Well, yeah We're actually dealing with has
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God actually spoken with clarity But yes, we are dealing with what is God like and can we trust how he has revealed himself to us
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To be able to know what God is like, but we've all heard this one before haven't we? We've all heard that.
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Well, the reason that you should reject Calvinism is because it presents a
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Terrible horrible view of God and all the rest of stuff Heard it before Always discover that it results in a very simplistic
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Reductionism of both reformed theology as well as biblical theology as well. I'm gonna mark that as where we need to pick up Lots of stuff between now and the next time we get to do that lots of things happening
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Your prayers for the upcoming trip ministry in South Africa very very much appreciated
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John Sampson will be will be keeping especially all of you Calvinist with the two
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A's Happy happy He and by the way real quickly
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If if someone out there would be willing to to join John's ESV only cult.
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He'd really be happy because he's just he's had no he's had no takers and I think he's sad about it and It's very difficult to see a
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British person with their their their lips quivering, you know Because they're supposed to keep that stiff upper lip, but when it quivers, it's really sad
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So it would someone be willing to do the ESV only thing because it'll it'll make him a lot happier so maybe you can call in next week and let him know that you've
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Joined up. Okay. Well folks your prayers appreciate. Thanks. Listen divine line today