December 23, 2020 Show with Nate Pickowicz on “How to Eat Your Bible” AND James Fryer on “Global Studies on Mariolatry & its Implications on Missions”

Iron Sharpens Iron

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:05

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

00:10

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

00:23

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

00:31

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

00:38

Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

00:51

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions.

00:58

And now here's your host Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

01:09

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

01:19

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Christmas Eve Eve on this 23rd day of December 2020, and today happens to be a

01:32

Wednesday, and I am delighted to have back on a returning guest for the first hour who

01:39

I love to interview. His name is Nate Pickowitz. If you do not already know who Nate Pickowitz is, you must get to know him and his books and benefit from them.

01:52

He is pastor of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmanton Iron Works, New Hampshire. He's an author including books such as Reviving New England and Why We're Protestant.

02:05

He also writes articles for Table Talk and other periodicals, and today we are addressing his latest book, and I love the title.

02:14

It's one of my favorite titles that I've ever seen in print of a published book,

02:19

How to Eat Your Bible, A Simple Approach to Learning and Loving the Word of God, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back for the first hour of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Nate Pickowitz.

02:32

Thank you, Chris. It's good to be back, and by the way, folks, make sure you stay tuned through the entire program because joining us in the second hour, my second guest today is another returning guest,

02:44

James Fryer, an author and Marian apparition researcher, and he's going to be discussing global studies on Mariallotry and its implications on missions, so make sure you stay tuned for that part of the program as well.

02:59

But before we go into your book, How to Eat Your Bible, tell our listeners about Harvest Bible Church in Gilmanton Iron Works, New Hampshire.

03:08

Sure, so we planted Harvest Bible Church in 2013. Gilmanton Iron Works is a pretty small town, less than 4 ,000 people.

03:16

It's the town I grew up in, so to be able to come back and minister and pastor a church here has been really great, but I'm married to Jessica, my wife.

03:25

I have three children, and it's just been my joy to be able to preach and minister to the people that are here at the church, and just every year is a new thing, and certainly for 2020, it's been a unique challenge, but also just laden with opportunities and with blessings from the

03:40

Lord, so it's just been really good to be here. Praise God, and I first became aware of Pastor Nate Pickowitz's ministry,

03:50

I believe, through our mutual friend, Pastor Mac Tomlinson, who is pastor of Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas, and I ask of our listeners to pray that my oldest brother,

04:06

John, who is 76 and lives just 10 minutes away from Pastor Mac Tomlinson's home, that he is willing to receive a visit from Pastor Mac because my brother has some very serious health problems, and none of us are guaranteed a long life on this earth, let alone we're not even guaranteed a day, but my brother has critical stage emphysema and cancer of the lung, colon, and spine, and he, from what

04:43

I can sense, is not trusting in the finished work of Jesus Christ, although the

04:49

Lord is showing very promising signs that he is drawing my brother, but it's one of those situations where I don't have a lot of confidence and peace about it, so pray that he is willing to meet with Pastor Mac again.

05:05

Mac did meet with him before the COVID crisis, when my brother had to take a trip to the hospital, and Mac showed up unannounced, and my brother seemed to enjoy the visit very much, which has me puzzled as to why he's just reluctant for another visit, but please pray that that occurs, and more importantly, that my brother not only is physically healed from the things that are attacking his body, but much more, infinitely more important, that he comes to eternal life in Jesus Christ, and I appreciate your prayers about that.

05:42

If you could, Pastor Nate, even though these books are not the topic of today's show,

05:49

I do want you to give a summary of Reviving New England and why we're

05:55

Protestant to our listeners, so that they can have their appetites whetted, and not only purchase these books, but perhaps even listen to our previous interviews on the

06:04

Iron Shepherds Radio archives on those books. So let's start with Reviving New England.

06:11

Sure. So being in ministry in New England, I've lived here my whole life, and so there's a huge dichotomy, a huge chasm between what ministry used to be like here and what it is now.

06:23

We're probably the least churched region in the whole country. I think Vermont is the least churched state in the whole country.

06:30

We're right behind that. And not even just that, you know, people attending church, but profession of faith and, you know, trusting in Christ as Savior.

06:38

So, you know, the book really talks about biblical principles for revival, things that are pretty straightforward, but are keyed specifically to New England.

06:47

And then I followed that book up with a book called Why We're Protestant. It's a simple book on the five syllables of the

06:55

Reformation, and interested in your second guest. I don't know if I'm going to have a chance to plug in. I have another place to be, but very interested in ministry to those who are participating in, you know,

07:06

Mariology and things like that. I did a lot of research for that book, for Why We're Protestant. And the

07:12

Roman Catholic religion is really strong up here in New England, and there's a lot of folks, even in my church, that have come out of Roman Catholic backgrounds.

07:21

And so really the book was an apologetic to try to reach people and explain what is the difference between Roman Catholicism and Protestantism.

07:28

And so I really tried to make that accessible. And one book we haven't gotten to, I was going to come on, but things kind of got jumbled up, is that Dustin Benz and I wrote a book called

07:39

The American Puritans that came out. Oh yeah. Yep, and so that's been chugging along this year as well, and that's really nine stories of early

07:49

Puritans, American Puritans, that hardly anybody knows anything about anymore. Cotton Mather and John Winthrop and all those guys.

07:55

So we got to get you and Dustin on to discuss that book. I know, I know. In fact, I know who

08:00

Dustin is. I've never met Dustin face to face, but I've had a number of conversations with him, and I've interviewed him on Jonathan Edwards' angelology.

08:11

That's right. Or the angelology of Jonathan Edwards. That's right. And I believe he did his doctoral dissertation on that, if I'm not mistaken.

08:18

He did, he did. And I assisted him in candidating for a church that has become very important to me on Long Island, New York, and things on both sides didn't seem to be a perfect match.

08:37

So I think that Dustin is more prone to enter into full -time teaching now.

08:44

Well, he's the provost of Union School of Theology in Wales, so he's got a big plate of responsibilities, and he's brilliant for the job.

08:54

They're really enjoying having him there, it seems. So yeah, he's one of my best friends that we talk pretty much every day, and we just really had a lot of fun writing a book together.

09:03

It was great. Yeah, my friend Justin Peters seems to be sharing a lot of Dustin Benj's quotes on Facebook, one of the few things that Facebook is good for, spreading the gospel.

09:20

That's right. And Dustin certainly has some very pithy statements that are worthy of spreading.

09:27

Yeah. And by the way, James Fryer, who you just mentioned, the second guest today, he did his doctoral dissertation on Mariolatry, so it should be interesting.

09:38

Well, I want to give our listeners our email address if they'd like to join us on the air. Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

09:47

We would obviously like you to be asking specific questions about subject matter that you hear as Pastor Nate continues to describe and explain what he has included in his book,

10:01

How to Eat Your Bible, a simple approach to learning and loving the Word of God. But since he is a pastor, we will allow you to ask pastoral questions and theological questions.

10:15

He would be from a very similar background to the theological background that I am from,

10:21

Reformed and Baptistic. And so if you have a question, send it to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

10:28

chrisarnson at gmail .com. And please give us at least your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the

10:35

USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter, such as a pastoral question or something like that.

10:45

So this is obviously an attention grabber, quite a humorous and I think memorable title,

10:55

How to Eat Your Bible, if you can explain that. Sure, so if you're familiar with this, there's quite a few references in Scripture and the

11:03

Prophets and even in the Psalms about the imagery of eating the

11:08

Word of God, and there's verses that talk about taking the scroll of Scripture and putting it in your mouth and having it be sweet.

11:16

You know, God uses very descriptive imagery, not that he wants us to be, you know, chewing on our

11:21

Bibles and eating paper, but he wants us to be imbibing the

11:27

Scriptures so much, we become so intimate with the Word of God that it is as if we're eating a meal.

11:33

You know, very similarly in Lewis John chapter 6, when Jesus is talking about eating his flesh and drinking his blood, he's not advocating for cannibalism.

11:42

What he's talking about is the intimacy of relationship and the closeness and really the spiritual ingestion of God.

11:50

I mean, he wants to be close to us, and so Scripture is laden with references to things like that, and so really

11:57

I seized on that idea, that metaphor, and I just wanted to write a book that was going to be practical and helpful to get people off and running.

12:06

There's a very specific audience that I'm targeting with this, and I want to help people to really learn how to just read and study and love the

12:14

Word of God. Well, tell us more about, in more detail, that target audience.

12:20

Sure. So a lot of the book is... a lot of it's autobiographical.

12:26

I tell a couple of stories and even just my own personal discovery of Scripture and learning to love

12:32

Scripture. You know, I'd come from a background of going to church that was, you know, that was really sort of marketed for seekers.

12:42

It was an attractional church, and so I'd been sitting in the pew and getting involved, but you know,

12:47

I really didn't know the Word of God at all. I didn't understand who he was. I didn't understand his doctrine, teaching.

12:52

I didn't understand the narrative of Scripture. It just felt very foreign to me. I knew that I should be reading the

12:59

Bible, but nobody was willing to show me how, even if I asked people, and so the

13:05

Lord was very kind after a couple of years to sort of not just put the Bible in my lap, but also to provide some helps, and really

13:13

I built a whole reading plan around a methodology that John MacArthur had written about in his study

13:20

Bible, so I sort of took some of that and I modified some of it and really just came to love

13:25

Scripture through that approach. So I'm writing this book. I mean, certainly it's for seasoned Christians.

13:30

Hopefully it'll be helpful for people who've been in the Bible for a while, but there's a large number of people.

13:36

We're facing a biblical illiteracy epidemic. A large number of people have all these

13:41

Bibles in their houses, but don't know how to get into them, and so I want to fight through the guilt and the shame and really just give people practical helps and encouragement on how to start and really how to learn how to love reading the

13:55

Scriptures, and I really believe it's possible. Now, what is it about the

14:01

Scriptures that very often, not with every single person,

14:08

I mean there are even people who love to read the Scriptures and seem to know a lot about the

14:15

Scriptures or not even regenerate. You know, there are seminary professors who have memorized huge portions of Scripture.

14:23

They might even know the original languages, but they are as spiritually dead as a doornail. But a lot of people, there's something very intimidating about picking up the

14:34

Bible on their own and reading the Bible on their own and studying it, and do you think a lot of it is just spiritual warfare, the demonic realm or something?

14:45

Because it seems strange that you could have people who, you know, they know by heart the stats of their favorite athletes and teams and could go on and on and wax eloquently about all kinds of subjects, music and other things, and then when it comes to picking up the

15:06

Bible, even though the Bible, even on the basis of sheer literature, has some extremely fascinating, riveting stories in it.

15:18

They're not all genealogies, you know, there's some really mind -blowing things there, and that's why even, you know,

15:28

Cecil B. DeMille and other movie producers have created movies about the

15:33

Bible, most of them absolutely horrific and horribly dumb, but I would say

15:39

The Ten Commandments, at least for the artistry of cinema, was a very excellent movie, although it did not remain completely faithful to the

15:49

Hebrew scriptures, but what are your thoughts on that? What is the big roadblock for most people picking up their

15:56

Bible? I think it's a lot of things. I think it depends on the person, but you know, I think part of it, and I address this in the book, that really the

16:03

Bible isn't, it's an intellectual book, which is kind of what you're talking about with being literature, and it certainly is, but it's also a spiritual book.

16:11

So on the intellectual side, I think people, especially today, we're so used to scrolling through and getting information very quickly,

16:20

I don't think the vast majority of people are really good with sitting down with a book to read it.

16:25

I mean, you ask most people, when was the last time you read a book and really studied a book, and I don't know the stats, but I don't think it's as many as it used to be.

16:35

So I think overcoming that, of the sort of the data overload, to actually sit down and read something to understand it.

16:44

But you know, we devote time to our favorite movies, but if I were to just drop you, for example, in the middle of The Lord of the

16:50

Rings, you know, three hours and 28 minutes in, and say, all right, understand this, most people who don't know that story don't understand a thing.

16:58

You know, you got people and names and places, it makes no sense. And I would be one of those people. Sure, well, you know, but that's kind of the point.

17:05

But if, you know, if you were to actually immerse yourself into the world of it, all of a sudden, you know, you start to understand better.

17:12

So I think that's a lot of it, when people, they sit down with a thousand page book, they flip it open, and they say, all right,

17:18

I'm going to try to find a verse that means something to me. Well, you're missing the narrative, you're missing the story, who is this person, what are they doing, you miss the gospel, you miss everything.

17:27

So to really understand it intellectually is one thing. But the second part of that is that it is a spiritual book.

17:33

You know, for example, 2 Timothy 3 .16 says, you know, the Word of God is, it's breathed out of his mouth, it's

17:39

God breathed, it comes from God. Hebrews 4 .12 said it's living and active. So there's a spiritual component that the

17:46

Spirit of God uses the words, he uses the actual words, and does something in us spiritually.

17:53

You know, the the words themselves, the thoughts, the doctrine, the teaching, all of these

17:58

God uses to change us. So, you know, you can understand it intellectually, but you might not understand it spiritually.

18:05

So I think there's a lot that has to go into that, but I cover that, you know, in terms of approaching it spiritually, and then trying to put your thinking cap on and really wrap your brain around, okay, what is this book actually teaching?

18:17

So a lot of those are, that's the heart behind it, trying to understand it on both fronts, as an intellectual book and as a spiritual book.

18:26

Now obviously, I'm sure, knowing what I know about you, you would be opposed to the notion that is rampant today, and it may have been rampant for quite a long time, perhaps even centuries, but I think today it's likely more rampant than ever that you have maverick, lone wolf people who think they're

18:51

Christians, and who think too highly of themselves to be under the tutelage, under the discipleship, under the oversight and shepherding of faithful pastors, undershepherds, and they like to just read the

19:12

Bible, perhaps on their own, or they like to just listen to people on the radio and watch televangelists and so on.

19:22

But for that person who is a person who's being drawn by God, who might be listening, and when they are home alone, even though they should be obviously spending time of fellowship a part of the week, especially on the

19:41

Lord's Day, with God's people and hearing the Word preached, when they are home, what kind of counsel would you give the new believer or the person that's being drawn about where do

19:57

I start with this book, or this huge bound together series of books, 66 books, where do

20:06

I start? Should I just start at Genesis 1 and keep reading until I'm at the end of Revelation?

20:12

Should I read a little bit of the Old Testament, a little bit of the New? What are your recommendations about that kind of thing?

20:18

Sure, so you've actually asked me two questions, and I want to figure out which one I want to hit first here, but I think to the maverick students who think that they don't need any help from anybody else,

20:30

I think there's a certain element of pride that goes there, that thinks that we're able to just kind of navigate on our own.

20:39

There's sort of a headstrong attitude to that, and I... we see an example, for example, in Acts chapter 8, when the

20:46

Ethiopian eunuch is on the back of that chariot and he's trying to read Isaiah, and Philip comes alongside and asks him, do you understand what you're reading?

20:53

And he says, well, how can I unless someone explains it to me? And so then you have Philip jumps up on the back of the chariot, explains to him, teaches him what the verses mean and how to apply them, and really that becomes a couple hours of a baptismal interview before he goes and gets baptized as a believer.

21:10

So we see examples already of people being taught in Scripture. Jesus commands in Matthew 28 to make disciples.

21:18

That means students. You're supposed to train people and teach people the obedience of Christ given to us in the

21:24

Word. So Ephesians chapter 4 talks about how pastors and teachers are gifts to the

21:29

Church. So if God gives pastors and teachers as gifts, then we should take advantage.

21:35

And I mean, I'm a pastor myself, but I glean from godly men. I want to learn. I want to grow.

21:40

So I would be foolish to assume that I would have the corner on truth. I want to understand what this book means, and God has given us so much to do so.

21:51

But I think to the second part of that, I was intimidated going into Bible reading myself. I mean,

21:56

I would just flip it open and hope that something spoke to me. But it wasn't until I actually was reading the contents of the introduction to the

22:06

MacArthur Study Bible, and he actually lays out a pretty simple plan, but he basically says to start with a

22:12

New Testament book. So I would, you know, in my personal opinion, I would not suggest starting in Genesis, even though it is the beginning.

22:20

I really think that you should start in the New Testament if you're brand new to this. And the reason is because we sort of live, we live in this new covenant era.

22:28

We want to meet Jesus. He's the one that we encounter. He's the one who we're saved by.

22:34

We start in the New Testament. You know, we start in the Gospel of John even. You know, start in a Gospel. That's a great place to start.

22:39

And just begin to read it and study and get to know that book. Lord willing, you have a whole lifetime to read the entire

22:47

Bible. Once you have a handle on the New Testament, then my goodness, the Old Testament just comes alive in a way that you've never seen before.

22:54

So I would definitely suggest starting in a New Testament book, and just slowing down and taking your time, and just read it until it makes sense, especially, you know, in a

23:03

Gospel. You can read about Jesus' life and ministry right there. So there's certainly ways, I think, to get into that.

23:09

Some people start in a doctrinal book like Romans, but I think just start and pray that the

23:14

Lord would give you guidance and understanding, and He will help you. He's able to help you. And in the book,

23:20

I also offer some tools, some basic Bible study tools that can be helpful as well. Well, I'm going to ask a listener question, and then

23:27

I'm going to have you answer it when we come back from our first station break. We have a first -time questioner,

23:35

Micah, who is a student at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky.

23:42

And Micah says, I have a question about the American Puritans book. What would

23:48

Nate say the difference is between the English Puritans and American Puritans, especially considering that the

23:56

Puritan movement was specifically a movement regarding the Church of England? And would he say the

24:03

Puritan movement was a success or failure since the Church was not reformed?

24:09

Interesting. And of course, Puritans were kicked out of the

24:14

Church of England. But we're going to have you respond to Micah's questions when we come back from our break.

24:21

And if anybody else wants to get in line, we do have some people forming a line here to have their questions asked and answered by Pastor Nate.

24:30

Our email address, again, is ChrisArnson at gmail .com. ChrisArnson at gmail .com. And please, as always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the

24:40

USA. We'll be right back after these messages, so don't go away. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

24:53

If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know I have a great love for getting Bibles and other documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity.

25:03

And besides that, they feel so good. I'm so delighted I discovered Post Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding.

25:10

No radio ad will be long enough to sing their praises sufficiently, but I'll give it a shot. Jeffrey Rice of Post Tenebrous Lux is a remarkably gifted craftsman and artisan.

25:20

All his work is done by hand, from the cutting, to the pleating of corners, to the perimeter stitching.

25:26

Jeffrey uses the finest and buttery soft imported leathers in a wide variety of gorgeous colors, like the turquoise goat skin, tanned in Italy used for my

25:35

Nestle Allen 28th edition, with a navy blue goat skin inside liner, and the electric blue goat skin from a

25:42

French tannery used to rebind a Reformation study Bible I used as a gift. The silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome.

25:53

Jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications, and even emboss your logo into the making whatever he rebinds a one -of -a -kind work of art.

26:03

For more details on Post Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding, go to ptlbiblerebinding .com.

26:11

That's ptlbiblerebinding .com. When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

26:24

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

26:32

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the NASB.

26:38

I'm Pastor Nate Pickowitz of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmanton Iron Works, New Hampshire, and the

26:44

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Rich Jensen of Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, New York, and the

26:52

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Sulay Prince of Oakwood Wesleyan Church in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, and the

27:01

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor John Sampson of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona, and the

27:09

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Chuck Volo of New Life Community Church in Kingsville, Maryland, and the

27:17

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Steve Herford of Eastport Baptist Church in Jacksonville, Florida, and the

27:24

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Roy Owens Jr. of the

27:30

Church in Friendship in Hockley, Texas, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

27:36

Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart?

27:45

Consider restocking your pews with the NASB, and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

27:54

Go to nasbible .com, that's nasbible .com to place your order.

28:05

Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, announcing a new website with an exciting offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a

28:14

Christian perspective. Try World Now at no charge for 90 days by going to getworldnow .com,

28:23

that's getworldnow .com. I rely on World because I trust the reporting,

28:28

I gain insight from the analysis, and World provides clarity to the news stories that really matter.

28:34

I believe you'll also find World to be an invaluable resource to better understand critical topics with a depth that's simply not found in other media outlets.

28:42

Armed with this coverage, World can help you to be a voice of wisdom in your family and your community.

28:49

This trial includes bi -weekly issues of World Magazine, on -scene reporting from World Radio, and the fully shareable content of World Digital.

28:58

There's no obligation and no credit card required. Visit getworldnow .com

29:04

today. Also check out World News Group's podcast, The World and Everything In It, at wng .org

29:12

forward slash podcast. That's W for World, N for News, G for Group, dot org forward slash podcast.

29:31

I'm Dr. Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

29:37

I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

29:42

Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jansen and Christopher McDowell.

29:50

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God, like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in his

30:04

Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim Christ Jesus the King and his doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.

30:14

I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love, as I have.

30:23

For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

30:30

That's hopereformedli .net. Or call 631 -696 -5711.

30:39

That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Quorum, Long Island, New York, that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

30:53

Welcome back. This is Chris Sorensen. If you just tuned us in, our guest for the first hour is

30:59

Nate Pikowitz, and we are discussing his latest book, How to Eat Your Bible, A Simple Approach to Learning and Loving the

31:07

Word of God. And before the break, we received a question from Micah, who is a student at the

31:15

Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky. And Micah asked,

31:23

I have a question about the American Puritans. What would Nate say the differences between the

31:30

English Puritans and the American Puritans, especially considering that the Puritan movement was specifically a movement regarding the

31:35

Church of England? We'll ask the second one after you finish responding to that. The long and the short of it is that there are several streams of Puritanism.

31:45

Everett Emerson, who is a Puritan scholar, has traced at least four streams. And they all just kind of range in terms of their basic belief about separation and not separation.

31:56

And really what you have, you have Puritans who are Puritanical in doctrine, Puritanical in practice, who end up separating from the

32:03

Church of England and coming overseas to America. For all intents and purposes, they are Puritans in and of themselves.

32:09

But once they cross over, they're deemed by many as separatists. And they really do begin to distance themselves.

32:16

And so the point of writing about the American Puritans is really to trace the stream of doctrine, the stream of thought.

32:22

And because I guess on a technical basis, they would not be within that movement, considering it began and ended in England.

32:29

So there's an academic discussion about that.

32:35

But we're pretty firmly in line with those who would say that there is that movement out there.

32:42

I'm trying to remember what the second aspect of his question was. His second question was, and would you say that the

32:50

Puritan movement was a success or failure since the Church, and he's speaking of the

32:55

Church of England, was not Reformed? Yes, I mean, the movement that the

33:00

Americans were trying to, the early Americans were trying to get, they were trying to purify the Church and then basically send the

33:06

Reforms back home. They failed. I mean, they didn't accomplish what they were trying to accomplish. Really, when you have to, when you trace the value and sort of the contribution of that movement in the early

33:18

American colonies, it really gave birth to sort of a spirit of revival of Reformation that carried into the

33:25

Great Awakening. And so the early Puritan influence really has a huge part of the evangelical movement that comes out of Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, and beyond.

33:34

So there is a legacy there. That's what we explore is that legacy, even though the movement itself and the efforts they were trying to make really ended up failing within the first 80 years or so.

33:45

So we just traced, our book traces the history of the stories of those people, what's valuable about them, the contributions that they made as individuals.

33:55

And we'd really try to tell the story as completely as we can with the short 200 -page book that we have.

34:02

So it's our best effort for what it is. Of course, we don't want to trash the entire

34:10

Church of England because in spite of the aberrant elements in it, still to this day, where you have the

34:18

Oxford movement, which is very Romish, and really you could barely tell the difference between them and Roman Catholics because the only thing that we would notice is that they don't believe in the primacy of the

34:32

Pope. And then you have on the other end just total leftist apostates who are denying the pillars of Christianity and supporting homosexuality, even amongst the so -called clergy and promoting abortion and all kinds of horrendous and demonic things.

34:51

So there is still a solidly Reformed element within the

34:56

Church of England, and there are many great heroes who gave their lives in the Church of England as well. Right.

35:02

I mean, J .C. Ryle is one of my personal heroes. I mean, he was an Anglican bishop and was a very faithful preacher,

35:09

Reformed in his theology and his convictions, a solid man of God. You know, even though he had certainly some doctrinal challenges in his life and ministry,

35:18

I mean, J .I. Packer was an Anglican or a Church of England guy before he broke over that very issue, obviously.

35:26

So I mean, there is a heritage there. But again, the purpose of our book is to explore the life and legacies of key leaders that came from England to America to kind of form the basis of what we have for a church in America.

35:40

So we don't get into all the different details. We try to cover the movement in very broad terms in the first few pages of our book.

35:48

And so certainly I would say that if Mike is interested, you know, purchase the book and read it for himself.

35:55

We try to make the argument, if he hates it, I will send him his money back. Well, in actuality, he's actually won a book for free.

36:05

Oh, there you go. Thanks to the generosity of Moody Publishers.

36:10

And also thanks to the generosity of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com, who will actually be shipping the book out to Micah.

36:19

So Micah, you're going to have to give us your full mailing address, your full name and full mailing address so that cvbbs .com

36:28

can ship out a copy of How to Eat Your Bible to you. And thanks for, oh, and by the way, you're also going to get, since you're a first -time questioner, you're also going to get a free

36:38

New American Standard Bible, which obviously our guest Nate Pikowitz enjoys since he participated in our ads promoting the

36:48

NASB. So thank you very much for listening and joining our program today with a great couple of questions there.

36:56

We have another listener, Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina.

37:02

And Grady actually happens to be a faithful listener of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and a faithful financial supporter of this program as well.

37:12

And I have to enlarge Grady's email because the font is microscopic, so I can't read it.

37:20

And I'm doing that now. And Grady says, Greetings Brothers Chris and Nate.

37:26

What Bible reference tools do you recommend in Bible study? Sure. With our technology today, there are so many tools available.

37:36

One app that I think has been really helpful for me has been the Literal Word app.

37:42

It's an app on your phone, but it's also a website, Literal Word. And that is really primarily a

37:49

New American Standard Bible app. And it functions very similar to a lot of the other

37:54

Bible study apps. But you can zoom in on the references. You can click on them. You can see the word studies, those cross -references.

38:02

I mean, everything that exists in a study Bible and more exists in that app.

38:07

So I would strongly suggest Literal Word as a strong app. But I mean, any tool that you can use that can make good references.

38:17

I know that many Bible students use the Treasury of Scripture Knowledge. It's just a really large concordance of solid

38:25

Bible references, cross -references. Those are helpful. Let Scripture interpret Scripture.

38:31

Also, Bible tools that can help you understand individual words. You have to be careful with those.

38:37

You don't want to commit what D .A. Carson called an exegetical fallacy. You don't want to just assume that, for example, the

38:43

Greek word dunamis literally means dynamite because it does not. But there is something behind the explosive power, so to speak, behind the word.

38:53

But not to isogeet the word itself. So great tools for cross -referencing word studies.

39:01

There's so much out there. But I'd say Literal Word is my go -to app right now. Well, thanks,

39:06

Grady. Make sure we have your full mailing address there in Asheboro, North Carolina. You've also won a free copy of How to Eat Your Bible, compliments of Moody Publishers, and also compliments of CVBBS .com.

39:18

We'll be shipping that out to you. We have John in Bangor, Maine. How close is

39:23

Bangor, Maine to Gilminton Ironworks, New Hampshire? That's probably about two to three hours.

39:31

I haven't been there in quite a while. I think it's about three hours away. John in Bangor, Maine asks, do you think that the more hungry reader who picks up the

39:45

Bible, especially if they are a new believer, has to be careful of biting off more than he can chew by reading too lengthy of a portion of the

39:55

Bible as a regular habit, which probably will not enable him to retain what he is reading?

40:02

That's certainly possible. I think our friend John has asked and answered his own question.

40:09

There's certainly a danger with that, of course. You know, you don't want to... It's like any book. I mean, you can't sit there and just binge reading a book and then hope to retain everything.

40:19

Certainly, Scripture has to be meditated over. You want to be chewing on it. You know, there's this concept of meditation, of turning things over in your mind.

40:29

I think, you know, varying your approach is good because sometimes it's good to sit down and make a habit of reading large portions to get the context, but other times it's helpful to turn a verse or a single phrase over in your mind to understand better.

40:44

I would definitely suggest varying your approach. Sometimes it depends on your season.

40:50

Sometimes it depends on the day. But, you know, the whole idea is you want whole

40:55

Bible knowledge for your whole lifetime. So that's going to take lots of different kinds of approaches, but I don't think it's bad.

41:02

I mean, I personally have read large portions of Scripture for the sake of context, but you really do want to slow down and meditate.

41:10

That's why I love expository preaching. It focuses in on just a couple of verses and to try to tease out the meaning and understand better.

41:17

So there is certainly a danger, but I think you just have to know yourself and know where you are and just be careful.

41:23

You don't want to just plow through just to get through. You want to understand it. That's the whole point. And, John, you've also learned how to eat your

41:31

Bible, so make sure we have your full mailing address in Bangor, Maine at cvbbs .com.

41:36

We'll ship that out to you. We have Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, who, in fact, you just said something that is connected to his question.

41:48

He said, there seems to be great disagreement amongst pastors and Christians in general over expository preaching and topical preaching.

41:58

There are some who are promoting expository preaching that seem to never want to be involved in topical preaching unless it's perhaps on Christmas and Easter or some special event like that.

42:13

And then you have others that are only involved in topical preaching, and not necessarily because they're exposed to expository preaching, but it may be just easier for them or something that appeals to them more than expository preaching.

42:28

Can we not find a balance and do both? I think it's a good question.

42:34

I've talked about that in Reviving New England, but it's a pertinent question. I think when it comes to what is the steady diet that a church receives,

42:44

I think when a church receives a steady diet of topical preaching, what happens is it dislodges believers from the greater narrative of Scripture.

42:54

It also models for them bouncing around from topic to topic. You're not as likely to hit difficult topics if you were to choose them yourself, and so I think topical preaching can be useful.

43:06

I don't think there's anything wrong with topical preaching as long as it's done exegetically, as long as you're exploring what the whole

43:13

Bible has to say on the topic, and that you're not just cherry -picking or reading something into the text that shouldn't be there.

43:20

So topical preaching is fine, but what is the steady diet of a church, and what is the steady diet of a believer?

43:27

You need to be immersing yourself in the Word of God, and the Apostle Paul in Acts 20 tells the

43:33

Ephesian elders, I did not shrink from sharing or declaring to you the whole counsel of God. We want to give people the whole counsel of God, and a good expository ministry will not just deal with individual verses and work verse by verse, book by book, but will also draw the connections from other places in Scripture to give you a whole understanding of what this passage means in the greater context.

43:56

So again, I think both are valuable, but a church that is starved of expository ministry and only has topical preaching,

44:06

I fear will become anemic and really lack a completer understanding of the totality of Scripture.

44:13

Yeah, we who are Reformed love the phrase, the whole counsel of God, and we typically want that incorporated in the life of the preaching and teaching ministry of the churches to hear and learn and absorb the whole counsel of God, and that is more likely going to occur with expository preaching.

44:38

And also, wouldn't you say that it's going to offer fewer occasions for hobby horses, although if somebody really wants to hobby horse, even if they're doing expository preaching, they can do a lot of eisegesis.

44:51

Sure. Yeah, and I think going verse by verse, book by book, there's a risk of becoming a running commentary and just sort of talking as you're going.

45:00

I think to really study the Scripture, to cut it straight as the Bible says, you really have to pull from other places in Scripture and really understand there's a phrase referred to as authorial intent.

45:13

What was the intention behind the Scripture? That's what you're trying to find. What is God saying in the verse, in the passage, in the context?

45:21

So that's what you're shooting for. But I mean, there's been many times just in my own ministry where I'll try to work faithfully through a book of the

45:29

Bible or through a passage, and there'll be stuff that comes up that in my own flesh, I don't really want to preach.

45:36

It's difficult or it's challenging or it's just not something that's as much fun, but you do it and you work through it, and you're always amazed that God will use that to sanctify and to encourage

45:46

His people, to train them. It's always a blessing to me. So you end up covering more ground.

45:52

You end up meeting more needs. And it's amazing how many times people will come away getting what they think they need or really being encouraged or ministered to by a passage of Scripture you wouldn't have otherwise preached.

46:06

So the Lord calls us to be faithful. It's not my job to go and try to figure out what

46:12

I want to give people. I want to know what God wants to say to them. So I believe that I'm convicted of that process myself.

46:22

And you've also won a free copy of How to Eat the Bible. Make sure we have your full mailing address.

46:29

And we have Bobby in Hartsdale, New York, and he says, I know that there is a danger of developing new novel ideas that no one in church history has ever believed or uttered.

46:45

And to follow teachers that claim to have made those discoveries and to teach them should be viewed with great suspicion.

46:54

But at the same time, I think there's a polar opposite problem as well, where people are terrified to be true, enthusiastic, and investigative

47:03

Bereans. How do we get the balance with those two? Well, I think you brought up a good point that you can't make the

47:11

Scripture say something it's never said before. I think that's where you go back to trusting in faithful teachers.

47:21

Passages are not going to just suddenly emerge with some new meaning that hasn't ever been there before. So a good commentary will be helpful to you, a commentary that will cover and span the whole course of church history.

47:34

If it's something that's never been seen before ever in church history, there's a good possibility that's not what that passage means.

47:41

So I think you have to hold church history in balance. Again, church history is not authoritative, but it does bear witness to the

47:47

Spirit of God helping believers throughout the course of time understand the passages of Scripture. So you don't want to invent some new novel idea.

47:56

But at the same time, I would say go to a commentary as a second or third resort. Pray through the passage and simply ask the

48:04

Spirit of God to give you understanding. Even as a pastor, as a preacher, many, many times, just about every week,

48:11

I'm sitting down with a verse and if it's not apparent, I'll just stop what I'm doing and I just ask. I say,

48:16

Lord, please help me understand this passage. Give me wisdom. Give me insight. And He's always faithful to give me enough to keep on going.

48:23

So certainly pray, certainly study, and then if you're stuck or if you're not sure, then yeah, consult a resource that could be helpful.

48:31

I mean, there's so many good commentaries and so many good pastors out there who've taught these passages before, and we don't want to stray outside of what has been accepted by the church for 2 ,000 years.

48:42

Yes, and I'm sure you would agree with this as well, since you wrote why we are

48:48

Protestant, and especially because you are, but there is a lot of lying going on out there, either by people who are consciously lying or they're just ignorant of the facts of history.

49:02

But I'm speaking specifically of many Roman Catholic apologists or just Roman Catholic laymen who repeat what they are hearing, that the

49:10

Reformers did that very thing that we are warning against. They will claim that the

49:17

Reformers came up with new ideas that were never heard or taught or believed by Christians during the entire patristic era and up until the 16th century, and this is just totally false, isn't it?

49:36

Yeah, it's interesting, too, because when you study out the history of Reformation, Martin Luther, when he was,

49:42

I mean, he wasn't trying to change anything initially, but he was going back and he was reading the early church fathers and was bringing all these ideas to bear and kind of made them look at what he was reading, and then once they realized that what he was saying was what has always been said, that's when they started seeing problems.

50:00

You know, he was going back to Aquinas, he was going back to Peter Abelard, you know, and he was bringing a lot of these ideas to the fore, and he's going back to Augustine.

50:08

Certainly there's different understandings of, you know, words about, like, for example, justification, but yeah,

50:14

I mean, the Reformers were trying to go back to the sources, ad fontes, back to the sources. What does the scripture say?

50:21

What have we always believed? And what they were discovering, it was actually the Roman Catholic Church that had wandered away from orthodoxy and just never admitted it.

50:30

Well, we are now out of books, but we thank you, listener. You have won the final book that we have to give away,

50:38

How to Eat Your Bible, and make sure we have your full mailing address so it can be shipped out to you.

50:44

And we do have a comment, not a question, from a first -time, perhaps, listener or responder,

50:52

Terry, who lives in Woolbridge, Ohio, who says,

50:58

Just a note to say how blessed I was to be standing next to you at the Shepherds Conference in 2017 when you handed your recently -authored

51:07

Puritan book to Ian Murray. Precious moment. How about that?

51:12

I remember that. I don't know if I remember being with Terry, but I remember, yeah, I was able to give

51:18

Reviving New England to Ian Murray. That was great. Wow, what a precious memory.

51:24

Well, thank you, Terry, and although we don't have a copy of Nate's book to give you, since you are a first -time commentator,

51:32

I guess I could say, we'll send you out a free New American Standard Bible if you give us your full mailing address in Ohio.

51:39

Well, we are out of time, Nate, and I want to make sure that we have your church website given so that our listeners can visit there, especially if they live in Gilmanton Ironworks, New Hampshire, or if they're visiting there, hbc -nh .org,

52:00

hbc -nh .org, and if you're interested in purchasing the book that we are addressing, it's published by Moody Publishers, but you can get it at cvbbs .com,

52:11

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com, and Nate, I definitely want to have you and Dustin Banjon to discuss the

52:18

American Puritans, and I hope the next time you're on, we can have you on for the full two hours. That'd be great,

52:24

Chris. Thank you so much. And we're going to our midway break right now, folks, so please be patient with us, because it's a longer -than -normal break.

52:32

It's the break that we have in the middle of the show that Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

52:38

FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us to have a longer break, because they air their own public service announcements to localize this show to Lake City, Florida, and while they do that, we air our own globally heard commercials.

52:50

So please try to respond to our advertisers as much as you can, and also send us questions for our second guest,

52:56

James Fryer, on Global Studies on Mariolatry and its Implication on Missions. And that email address, again, is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

53:06

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages. Was your business shut down during the

53:25

COVID -19 pandemic, depriving you of earning any money, causing you to default on your rent as you try to survive without income?

53:35

Maybe you've had to close your doors for good. The good news, you thought, was that you purchased business interruption insurance as a part of your business liability policy with a major insurance company who told you they are a good neighbor, or that you would be in good hands.

53:54

You filed a claim only to be told that it was denied due to the Pandemic Exclusion Clause.

54:01

The Pandemic Exclusion? Since 2006, most insurance companies added this clause to enable them to deny your income loss claims in the event of a worldwide pandemic.

54:13

Do not give up. No matter what state you live in, call Buttafuoco & Associates now at 1 -800 -669 -4878.

54:24

Buttafuoco & Associates is a part of a large multi -district litigation, and they are working with lead counsel to bring what they believe will be a successful lawsuit for these claims.

54:35

It is the best way for you to proceed. There's absolutely no risk to you.

54:40

You do not have to pay them out of pocket, and there is no fee unless you recover on your claim.

54:47

You need to call 1 -800 -669 -4878 right now.

54:53

Trust the law firm where the attorneys at one of the largest business firms on Long Island, New York, are sending their own clients for representation during this lawsuit.

55:04

Buttafuoco & Associates. Here to help business owners rebuild their lives in the wake of the pandemic.

55:11

Call 1 -800 -669 -4878. Hi, this is

55:28

John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the

55:36

Arnsharpen's Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the

55:48

Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast, knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.

55:57

I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised

56:04

Chris up for just such a time. And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

56:13

I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

56:19

Arnsharpen's Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

56:27

I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com

56:34

where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com. Here's what

56:41

Gary DeMar, president of American Vision, had to say about Ironsharpen's Iron Radio recently.

56:47

Good to be back, Chris. I always enjoy our time. You, I have to say, you're one of the better interviewers out there, and I've been doing this for 30, more than 30 years.

56:57

Wow, that's some compliment. How much do I owe you for that? You don't have to owe me anything.

57:04

We're in good shape. I'm glad you said it on the air so I don't have to brag about myself.

57:11

Tell your friends and loved ones about Ironsharpen's Iron Radio airing live Monday through Friday, 4 to 6 p .m.

57:18

Eastern time at ironsharpensironradio .com. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries and the

57:27

Dividing Line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach, and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church, now located at their new beautiful facilities in Corham, Long Island, New York.

57:47

I've had the privilege of opening God's word from their pulpit on many occasions, have led youth retreats for them, and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my

57:55

New York debates. I do not hesitate to highly recommend Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island to anyone who wants to be accurately taught, discipled, and edified by the holy scriptures, and to be surrounded by truly loving and caring brothers and sisters in Christ.

58:11

I also want to congratulate Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham for their recent appointment of Pastor Rich Jensen's co -elder,

58:17

Pastor Christopher McDowell. For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net,

58:25

that's hopereformedli .net, or call 631 -696 -5711, that's 631 -696 -5711.

58:35

Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island that you heard about them from James White on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

58:53

We are excited to announce another new member of the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio advertising family,

59:00

Bhanu Gadi, owner of three New York pharmacies, Lee's Drugs of Floral Park, Long Beach Chemists, and Prescription Center of Long Island in Hempstead.

59:10

Bhanu Gadi earned a doctorate in pharmacy degree and is very knowledgeable on the current coronavirus pandemic.

59:18

Please contact Dr. Gadi so he and his expert staff can give you proper guidance amid all the contradictory confusion we are all hearing in the media.

59:28

To find the pharmacy nearest you, call 516 -354 -2000, that's 516 -354 -2000, or order online at leesdrugsrx .com,

59:42

that's L -E -E -S drugsrx .com. Don't forget to ask about their discount generic drug program.

59:50

Greetings in the matchless name of our Lord Jesus Christ. My name is Bhanu Gadi. I'm a pharmacist in New York, which is the epicenter of the latest crisis the world is going through.

01:00:02

In Psalm 139 verse 14, the psalmist offers praise to the Lord like this,

01:00:07

I praise you because I'm fearfully and wonderfully made and wondrous are your works that my soul knows very well.

01:00:14

He saw God's goodness and mercy, kindness and the beauty in what

01:00:20

God has designed and he has erupted into praise. In any crisis or problem, brothers and sisters, our only fallback position is to trust

01:00:29

God's design. And once we do, there is nothing for us to do but to erupt in praise to him.

01:00:37

When the whole world is searching for a solution, God in his infinite mercy has given us what we need to address this illness, which can be very serious.

01:00:46

Such is the beauty of his design. Knowing that design, how can we not erupt in praise to our great

01:00:52

God like the psalmist did? May God bless you and give all of us wisdom to see greater things in his design.

01:00:59

Thank you. This is

01:01:17

Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

01:01:23

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron Sharpens Iron radio financially.

01:01:32

Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our

01:01:44

Lord Jesus Christ. And of course, the end of what we strive is the glory of God.

01:01:51

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

01:02:04

Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

01:02:14

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org That's gracechurchatfranklin .org

01:02:22

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign

01:02:28

Lord, God, Savior, and King Jesus Christ today and always.

01:02:46

When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

01:02:52

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

01:03:00

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the

01:03:05

NASB. I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, President and Professor of Systematic and Homiletical Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylors, South Carolina, and the

01:03:17

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Chuck White at the

01:03:22

First Trinity Lutheran Church in Tonawanda, New York, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

01:03:28

I'm Pastor Anthony Methenia of Christ Church in Radford, Virginia, and the NASB is my

01:03:33

Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Jesse Miller of Damascus Road Christian Church in Gardnerville, Nevada, and the

01:03:40

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Bruce Bennett of Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York, and the

01:03:49

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Rodney Brown of Metro Bible Church in Southlake, Texas, and the

01:03:58

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Jim Harrison of Red Mills Baptist Church in Mayapac Falls, New York, and the

01:04:06

NASB is my Bible of choice. Here's a great way for your church to help keep

01:04:11

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart?

01:04:17

Consider restocking your pews with the NASB and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:04:27

Go to nasbible .com, that's nasbible .com to place your order.

01:04:39

Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions, coffee shops, and local hangouts,

01:04:47

Long Island Youth for Christ, staff and volunteers meet with young people who need Jesus. We are rural and urban and we are always about the message of Jesus.

01:04:56

Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following Christ.

01:05:04

Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959. We have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around the world.

01:05:18

Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future. Volunteer, donate, pray, or all of the above.

01:05:25

For details, call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385 -8333, that's 631 -385 -8333, or visit liyfc .org,

01:05:41

that's liyfc .org. As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

01:06:08

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

01:06:17

Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he shall be represented in the world.

01:06:25

They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

01:06:31

God in spirit and truth. Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a

01:06:36

God -centered focus. Reading, preaching, and hearing the word of God, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, baptism, and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship, performed with faith, joy, and sobriety.

01:06:51

Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at gcbcnj .squarespace

01:07:00

.com That's gcbcnj .squarespace .com

01:07:07

or call them at 908 -996 -7654. That's 908 -996 -7654.

01:07:17

Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,

01:07:34

Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read. He who never quotes will never be quoted.

01:07:42

He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own.

01:07:47

You need to read. Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the

01:07:54

Prince of Preachers to heart. The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future, and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

01:08:07

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered,

01:08:12

Christ -exalting books for all ages. We invite you to go treasure hunting at Solid -Ground -Books .com

01:08:19

That's Solid -Ground -Books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

01:08:28

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And please don't forget, folks, that Solid -Ground -Books .com

01:08:38

is a vital, a premier, a really central financial supporter of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:08:47

We would likely not continue to exist apart from the faithful advertising campaigns that Solid -Ground -Books .com

01:08:57

purchases to air on this program. Please, whenever you are considering replenishing your own library or purchasing a gift for someone you love, or even a stranger that you want to lead to Christ, go to Solid -Ground -Books .com,

01:09:17

Solid -Ground -Books .com, and always mention that you heard about them from Chris Orenson on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:09:23

In fact, they are the publishers of a book that our second guest has written,

01:09:30

James Fryer, although that is not the topic of our discussion for the second half of the program.

01:09:35

We're going to be discussing global studies on Mariolatry and its implications on missions, but we'll have

01:09:42

James refresh our memories and also introduce for the first time, in summary form, something about the book that he has written for Solid -Ground

01:09:52

Christian Books when we enter into our discussion with him. But I just want to, before we go to James's interview,

01:10:00

I want to make sure that you all know that Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is in seriously urgent need of your financial help because of the coronavirus pandemic hysteria.

01:10:11

A lot of people in our audience have been hit hard financially, and that means subsequently so have we because the donating has gone down and the advertising has gotten fewer and farther in between.

01:10:28

And we are really, really struggling to remain on the air. So please, if you love this show, go to IronSharpensIronRadio .com,

01:10:38

click support, then click click to donate now. You could donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that fashion.

01:10:45

If you prefer snail mail, an address will appear on your screen where you can click support when you click support at IronSharpensIronRadio .com

01:10:54

and you can make those checks payable to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and mail them to that address. Please, as I always try to remember to remind you, don't siphon money away from your regular giving that you're accustomed to to your local church in order to give to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:11:09

We don't want you to punish your church financially by blessing us financially. And also don't put your family in serious financial jeopardy by giving to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio because those two things are commands of God and scripture providing for your church and your family.

01:11:24

Providing for this radio show is obviously not a command of God, but if you are blessed financially above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands, then please go to IronSharpensIronRadio .com

01:11:35

click support, then click, click to donate now, frequently and give generously.

01:11:41

Also folks, if you want to advertise with us, send me an email to chrisarns and at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line as long as whatever it is you are promoting is compatible with what we believe.

01:11:51

And last but not least, if you are not a member of a local Bible -believing church, no matter where you live on the planet

01:11:57

Earth, I may be able to help you find a church because I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the globe and I have helped many people in our audience find churches near where they live, sometimes just within a few minutes of where they live and they didn't even know these churches existed or didn't know that they were biblically faithful.

01:12:12

So send me an email to chrisarns and at gmail .com and put it in the church of the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to our second guest today,

01:12:21

James Fryer, an author and a Marian apparition researcher and we are addressing, as I said before, global studies on Mariolatry and its implications on missions.

01:12:29

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Trump and Zion Radio, James Fryer. Hello, good evening.

01:12:38

It's great to have you back, James. And if you could, before we go on to our main topic today, just give a very brief summary of the book that you have written for Solid Ground Christian Books.

01:12:51

Yeah, Chris, thank you so much. It was a blessing to be able to have that work published and people have been gracious to give me good feedback.

01:13:00

It is essentially looking at themes kind of bringing together two themes on more of spiritual warfare and as well as apologetics.

01:13:12

Now, really looking at trying to bring a biblical, sound biblical, exegetical study or a reformed study of the theme of spiritual warfare, certainly bringing in historical perspectives and stance from the patristic writers and the

01:13:28

Puritans and reformed writers through history, but also just expositions of texts from scripture that bring us to more of a sound view of spiritual warfare themes as we encounter, facing the world of flesh and the devil that are always bombarding the believer that the

01:13:53

Christian life really is more of a battleground activity than it is more of a laid -back or a casual approach to life.

01:14:05

God has called us into the fray and we're often faced with great, great adversity in the

01:14:12

Christian life, and so just for the health of the Church, remember what we're called to in that.

01:14:20

And the title again of that book that you wrote for Solid Ground Christian Books? Yeah, it's called

01:14:25

Battle Cry and it's reflections on the gospel and being ready in and out of season, both spiritually ready and standing in Christ before Christ as well as kind of ready to defend the gospel in this dark age.

01:14:42

That's Battle Cry, and if you go to solid -ground -books .com, you could type James Fryer, F -R -Y -E -R in the search engine and this book will come up.

01:14:54

You can also type Battle Cry in the search engine. This book will come up and also you can hear our last interview with James on Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio on this book.

01:15:04

If you go to the podcast past shows section of Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio .com and you click on that and you type in his name,

01:15:13

James Fryer, F -R -Y -E -R, or Battle Cry in the search engine, that interview audio link will come up.

01:15:22

Well, this is a topic that we are addressing today, Mariolatry, that is near and dear to my heart because I was rescued by the grace and mercy of our

01:15:36

Lord, God, Savior, and King, Jesus Christ, out from the false religion of Roman Catholicism back in the 1980s and had been a witness firsthand to people who are so deceived into this idolatrous practice and belief system that involves the saints and relics and statues and paintings and icons and objects and first and foremost among those idols that Roman Catholics are prone to worship in spite of the fact that they insist they are not worshiping these people or objects they certainly are whether they admit it or not whether they realize it or not but the chief among those people who is an actual dear saint and sister in Christ now in eternity with Christ, Mary, his mother,

01:16:39

Jesus Christ's mother, but she has become an idol to many tragically. But first of all, if you could define

01:16:47

Mariolatry. Oh, absolutely, Chris. Thank you so much.

01:16:53

It's been a blessing to be able to study putting this together. Like you, I'll just say real quick,

01:16:58

I was born again, came to Christ out of Catholicism. I grew up Catholic Church, Catholic grade school through junior high and all that.

01:17:08

Well, and then we were missionaries in Nicaragua as well, where there's unique kind of forms of folk religious

01:17:15

Mariolatry, you know, traditions there, which brought some of this to the head.

01:17:21

Really, Mariolatry is indeed it is indeed a type of idolatry.

01:17:27

It is a worship of Mary. There's really just no, you know, the semantics that Rome tries to play of a hyperdulia and this type of thing that just is a higher heightened sense of reverence and things for Mary really are in fact of worship.

01:17:46

There's no way of really splitting hairs on that. So there's an idolatry. It is a bowing to something else.

01:17:53

They make her really essentially, you know, a fourth member of the Trinity and their view and their functionality of how

01:18:01

God is working in humanity. Now, of course, as I said before, they would deny that.

01:18:08

But what is being done by faithful Roman Catholics?

01:18:13

And when I say faithful, I don't mean faithful to the scriptures or faithful to Christ, but I mean faithful to their dogma.

01:18:20

And what are Roman Catholics doing that makes their devotion to Mary and the saints and the objects cross a line into actual worship?

01:18:37

You will have folks like Patrick Madrid, a very well -known

01:18:42

Roman Catholic apologist, who will say that if we love our spouses or our children or our grandchildren or anyone in our family and we carry photographs of them in our wallets or wherever we carry things and we look at these photographs adoringly and even bring them to our lips and kiss them when we miss these people that these photographs depict, we should be in no place to criticize

01:19:17

Catholics for the devotion that they have. That's, I think, a very disingenuous and deceptive argument because Mr.

01:19:25

Madrid knows that there's a lot more going on with the devotion, the excessive devotion that we would call, that you and I would call, worship of Mary and the saints and of relics and objects that there's far more than your average person who carries a memento or a photograph of a loved one.

01:19:46

But what is going on, in your opinion, that makes, or from your knowledge of the scriptures and of Roman Catholicism, what is going on that makes these people guilty of idolatry and of worshiping people and things other than God?

01:20:05

Yeah, just like you said, Catholics would not differentiate, and they would hold to the doctrine of the

01:20:12

Trinity and they would say by definition they are not worshiping Mary, in fact, but then at the same time, in practice, it really brings some of these things to mind.

01:20:22

There's a well -woven path, kind of a trajectory of this Marian belief and embracing of Mary, kind of this developing of the

01:20:33

Marian perspective through the Middle Ages, on through past the

01:20:39

Reformation, all that. I think it partly, if you look at part of the defining of it is they began to add doctrines to their understanding of Mary in a heightened reverential, not just a respect, but really a sense of worship in the sense that they are praying to her.

01:21:01

She's essentially in function, practically omniscient over, or omnipresent over all of creation, rather.

01:21:10

Omnipresent that she's answering prayers simultaneously from heaven all over the world.

01:21:18

There's things that are, by default, are very much in the role of God that we would not see.

01:21:28

In fact, because of the definitions of the Marian dogma, those make up their understanding, really, that brings it much more closer to worship.

01:21:42

Certainly, some of the same things that you said, every time I was reading something recently, even the new

01:21:47

Pope, every time he returns from a journey, he goes straight. There's a giant picture of Mary there in the

01:21:53

Vatican. He stops there to pay homage to her and revere her and give veneration to her there at the painting.

01:22:05

But this has been true throughout history. We can go on to talk about, if you want, how this manifests in various cultures.

01:22:14

On every continent. Yeah, well, before you even do that, why don't you tell us how you even got involved in this specific study of Mariolatry?

01:22:29

Yeah, well, we have been involved in missions, let's say, my wife and kids growing up, we were involved in missions for almost 18 years with other parts of ministry as well, serving the chapel currently, but we worked and traveled to Nicaragua for a number of years.

01:22:51

We were there doing theological education, helping develop the theological training center, still working with some of the

01:22:56

Nicaraguan evangelical leaders there. There's some great partners we have there.

01:23:03

Well, being there, I saw firsthand some of the particular trends or traditions that they have regarding their

01:23:13

Mariolatry there but regarding the Immaculate Conception celebration, the 90th celebration, it's throughout the whole country.

01:23:24

Aside from the stronger, more, you know, certainly solid evangelical churches, the culture is interwoven with this

01:23:33

Marian tradition. It's really bigger than Christmas, celebration of the

01:23:39

Immaculate Conception of Mary. Well, as I started looking at themes in my

01:23:45

Ph .D. program in Missiology at the Western Baptist Theological Seminary, I spoke with my dissertation, my doctoral advisor, and he had worked with the folk

01:23:58

Islam. So really, we began looking at some of the things we talked about there.

01:24:06

Really, the folk Catholicism. So we have the world religions. We have, you know, Islam, Catholic, Islam, Hinduism, certainly

01:24:14

Catholicism. And then, from Catholicism, you have your folk

01:24:21

Catholicism, which essentially is a morphing of Catholics. So you have the

01:24:26

Catholic dogma that is codified in Rome, along with the

01:24:32

Marian dogma, the Marian beliefs, which drive there this false, you know, this false theology and falsity of Mary.

01:24:41

But you see manifested in various countries that we saw in Nicaragua, from the

01:24:47

Marian dogma, even more bizarre and particular traditions developing in different countries where Mariolatry is prevalent.

01:25:00

Now, would you say, from your experience, that there are certain nationalities and ethnic groups that are more prone to the more extreme forms of Mariolatry?

01:25:14

Obviously, all of it is heretical and an offense to God, no matter how mild it may seem.

01:25:25

But are the Hispanic cultures, and especially perhaps in Central and South America, or maybe even places like Puerto Rico, and perhaps even the

01:25:44

Italian culture in some of those areas, are they more prone to the extreme forms of more blatant worship than, let's say, your

01:25:58

Irish Catholics and those from Poland who are Roman Catholic and so on? No, I think there may be worship styles that are acute in different areas, certainly more expressive or emotional worship styles.

01:26:14

But I think that interweaving of Mariolatry into a culture...

01:26:20

Of course, we think of Latin American Catholicism and whatnot oftentimes, but my studies show you see it throughout the world.

01:26:31

Like you said, in Poland, Poland has a deep tradition of Mariolatry going all the way back to, they believe they have a painting that was from the age of Constantine, that painting that they've surrendered their entire government and country to that painting.

01:26:48

Is that the Black Madonna? Yes, that's the exact thing they call it.

01:26:53

There's a black version of Mary, and they believe that that painting has protected them through wars and battles and all kinds of things.

01:27:05

So as well, you see places you wouldn't find or you wouldn't expect to find deep kind of Mariolatry trends.

01:27:14

But I've found that even in, for example, in Pakistan, where there's a Marian shrine and where hundreds of thousands of people every year travel there in Pakistan from Sikhs to Hindus, Muslims to Catholics, traveling pilgrimages to the

01:27:31

Marian shrine, pleading for miracles from Mary. So distinct in their faiths, of their different faiths, yet still traveling to this place where they believe

01:27:46

Mary is going to do miracles for them. So you wouldn't think in Pakistan, but other places like that as well.

01:27:53

In fact, even in Jerusalem and Ephesus, there is an Eastern tradition some

01:28:00

Catholics hold to believe, and potentially the belief that Mary died in Ephesus, that Mary and John went to Ephesus, and they have the

01:28:10

House of Mary in Ephesus. Archaeology, many archaeologists believe that is the

01:28:16

House of Mary. Well, the House of Mary in Ephesus, they actually turned the bedroom of Mary into, they call it the

01:28:24

Quran room. And in that House of Mary, there's two strands of pilgrimage, you know, two groups, largely venerating

01:28:35

Mary, Islamic group going to the Quran room to venerate Mary and the

01:28:42

Catholics. Oddly as well, that Mary being a central, predominant woman figure in the

01:28:49

Quran. Now that's fascinating. I have heard of this strange phenomenon of Muslims showing up at the same sites where alleged

01:29:04

Marian apparitions have occurred. And one of the reasons why it, to me, is fascinating and bizarre is that Islam and Muslims seem to be hyper sensitive and would even categorize your average born -again evangelical

01:29:29

Protestant Christian as an idolater for the devotion that we have towards Jesus Christ.

01:29:36

They would actually consider that shirk, which is the most blasphemous sin, the most evil sin that a human being can commit, giving, they would call it giving partners to God, making someone equal with God, as we believe

01:29:56

Jesus is equal with the Father and the Son because they are all God. But knowing that, that they would be giving any kind of devotion to Mary, and it's also ironic since the

01:30:08

Quran itself, it never mentions the Trinity, but it prohibits a belief in the three which would, in their minds, proving that the

01:30:24

Quran was not inspired by God because it falsely defines the Trinity, even though, as I said, it doesn't use the name

01:30:30

Trinity or the word, but as the Father, the Son, and Mary. So that's why it's quite strange that they would have any kind of devotion to Mary other than the kind of honor that a

01:30:48

Protestant would have for her. But if you could explain that. Yeah, well,

01:30:55

I guess probably that area I don't understand as well.

01:31:01

I know that they definitely have a strong veneration for Mary. What are they actually doing, the

01:31:08

Muslim, when they are making a pilgrimage to some quote -unquote holy site?

01:31:15

What are they doing in relationship to Mary, physically and mentally and so on? I have not found any

01:31:23

Marian prayers in print from an Islamic perspective yet. We see these pilgrimages going on, at least the one in Pakistan.

01:31:35

It seems that they're pleading for miracles, desperate, you know, sickness and poverty and things coming to Mary for miracles.

01:31:45

I didn't see that in other places. I didn't see exactly what they were requesting of Mary, different things.

01:31:55

But, you know, we do see this merging in later history, even up until recent times.

01:32:06

The recent pope is... There was a huge meeting of a leading imam and the pope in Egypt, I think, last year.

01:32:16

They have papal encyclicals where they wove together their official document from their perspective to unify

01:32:26

Islam and Rome for the purpose of not in dogma, but in practice for the sake of type of world peace and those types of things.

01:32:40

They have... I've included the documentation of those papal encyclicals that are available through the

01:32:47

Vatican Archives. So they definitely... They see embracing...

01:32:55

Even the Vatican Council, too, had left things open for them to join together and welcome them as kind of brothers under God.

01:33:07

Now, if you could, tell our listeners the exact title of your doctoral dissertation that you did on this subject, and what exactly did you do to educate yourself and prepare yourself and equip yourself to write this dissertation on this subject?

01:33:24

Yeah, so it's actually called The Exposure of Large -Scale Devotion to and Missiological Implications of Folk Religion Practices of Marian Veneration, and with the case study of Nicaragua, which was one of the chapters that you have to...

01:33:41

PhD studies, you have to find something that distinguishes it from maybe other studies.

01:33:47

There have been a lot of folk religious dissertations and things written on Marian Veneration, but there is a couple anthropological studies coming out of Mexico and things that have some...

01:34:01

Like I referenced, my bibliography has about 300 books and articles from all different aspects of missions,

01:34:13

Scripture to Roman Catholic documents to more biblically -minded studies that are refuting the trends of Rome.

01:34:26

So I can tell you just briefly with that, if it answers your question, just the flow of how that I put it together.

01:34:35

One was drawing all the resource in various different areas to begin to put the dissertation together, and with that,

01:34:46

I looked at all terminology and definitions and concepts, three different areas, one from a kind of Marian global perspective, and including the

01:34:55

Nicaraguan case study background of Marian traditions and Marian dogma. Secondly, kind of the biblical, theological issues and matters from Scripture.

01:35:06

And then thirdly, the biblical missiological backdrops.

01:35:11

So looking at missiological terms, missiological concepts that would help us understand more of a folk religion, this kind of looking more at the morphing of the

01:35:21

Catholic faith as it's kind of gone out into specific context culturally throughout history.

01:35:30

From that, I developed a chapter on, specifically on the distinct forms of Marian veneration,

01:35:36

Mariolatry in Nicaragua, traditions, practices there. And from lastly, kind of the so what chapter, we know in the

01:35:46

PhDs, mostly kind of research developing through the trajectory of history, that you get to, you know, kind of the punchline is the so what chapter.

01:35:57

So in that, I've had kind of missiological implications on missions.

01:36:03

So looking at the text of Scripture and the implications of, you know,

01:36:11

Marian ongoing, Marian revelatory activity and apparitions of Mary.

01:36:17

So this is a major problem. We have, we must come to terms that this is essentially demonic, right?

01:36:25

That you have an ongoing Marian revelation in different places, often times blatantly contradicting the

01:36:34

Scriptures. And then these apparitions that are sought after by people flocking to sites all over the world.

01:36:43

As well, implications when it comes to evangelism, apologetics, spiritual warfare. We must understand going into evangelism, missions, apologetics, engaging folks with knowledge that we want to understand, we want to approach them.

01:37:00

Many Catholics may not be aware of what they're saying, what they're doing. They may recognize the

01:37:05

Bible. So therefore, we have a great platform to start with, to start in Scripture, where we don't see these traditions and dogmas.

01:37:14

And then, we have also implications of the pluralism and syncretism of Marian folk religion.

01:37:23

From things I mentioned to you already, from the pilgrimages to the House of Mary in Ephesus, and in Pakistan, and other places as well.

01:37:34

The last part was really something very significant as well, a massive ecumenical, missiological collaboration.

01:37:43

So you have ecumenism as really the negative side, or the very bad side of ecumenism.

01:37:53

There's not really generally a positive word, but occasionally you'll find people will use it more in an evangelical light.

01:38:01

So I'll just couch you in the idea that this kind of crossing into a

01:38:07

Roman Catholic, Protestant, evangelical type ecumenism, where groups are kind of joining together with Rome in a false unity, really.

01:38:20

So that's hugely problematic. You have today a liberal missiological group, a missiological society that last year actually met on the campus of Notre Dame to redefine missions, to join together liberal

01:38:38

Protestant evangelicals, liberal with Rome, to go to redo missions together, kind of undoing the

01:38:46

Reformation. So these are largely massive problematic matters.

01:38:53

And places like Nicaragua, for example, where they've had the Gospel for 150 years, and now we want to go back into these places that American Catholic and evangelical ecumenical missions groups going back in to re -evangelize places where they've had the

01:39:13

Gospel for 150 years. So it's really there's a lot of darkness in this and much working against what many faithful missionaries have brought for years.

01:39:28

In fact, we have to go to our final break right now. And if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, I would strongly advise you to do so quickly because we're rapidly running out of time.

01:39:37

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back with James Fryer and Mary Altree right after these messages from our sponsors.

01:39:51

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio depends upon the financial support of fine Christian organizations to remain on the air, like the

01:39:59

Historical Bible Society. The Historical Bible Society maintains a collection of Christian books, manuscripts, and Bibles of historical significance spanning nearly a thousand years.

01:40:11

The mission of HBS is the preservation and public display of ancient scripture, dissemination of scripture, to provide tools equipping believers and Christian apologetics with evidence for the

01:40:21

Bible's reliability, and to introduce Reformation literature and Christian art to a broader audience.

01:40:28

Since 2004, HBS has toured schools and churches throughout the northeast United States, reaching thousands of believers and non -believers alike who are hungry for knowledge of the

01:40:39

Bible. HBS's founder, Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law, is committed to sharing this collection along with an inspirational historical message that will captivate you and your church.

01:40:52

Come journey through their website, historicalbiblesociety .org. The collection includes a complete 11th century

01:40:59

Bible, an actual page of the Gutenberg Bible from 1455, the first book ever printed, the

01:41:06

Geneva Bible, the 1611 King James Bible, and much, much more. Visit historicalbiblesociety .org

01:41:14

today. Thank you, Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law, for your faithful support of Iron Trump and Zion Radio.

01:41:31

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here. If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know

01:41:37

I have a great love for getting Bibles and other documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity.

01:41:44

And besides that, they feel so good. I'm so delighted I discovered Post Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding.

01:41:51

No radio ad will be long enough to sing their praises sufficiently, but I'll give it a shot. Jeffrey Rice of Post Tenebrous Lux is a remarkably gifted craftsman and artisan.

01:42:01

All his work is done by hand from the cutting to the pleating of corners to the perimeter stitching.

01:42:07

Jeffrey uses the finest and buttery soft imported leathers in a wide variety of gorgeous colors like the turquoise goat skin tanned in Italy used for my

01:42:16

Nessie Allen 28th edition with a navy blue goat skin inside liner and the electric blue goat skin from a

01:42:22

French tannery used to rebind a Reformation study Bible I used as a gift. The silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome.

01:42:33

Jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications and even emboss your logo into the leather making whatever he rebinds a one -of -a -kind work of art.

01:42:44

For more details on Post Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding go to ptlbiblerebinding .com

01:42:51

That's ptlbiblerebinding .com When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the

01:43:05

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

01:43:13

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the

01:43:18

NASB. I'm Pastor Brandon Scalf of Cruciform Bible Church in Indianapolis, Indiana and the

01:43:24

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Chris Hatton of Grace Chapel in Sanford, Florida and the

01:43:32

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Jack Wilke Minister of the Forney Church of Christ in Forney, Texas and the

01:43:39

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Mike Wachowski of Westminster Chapel in Ballground, Georgia and the

01:43:46

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Steve Cooley of Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston, Massachusetts and the

01:43:54

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Brock Evans from Wading River Baptist Church in Wading River, Long Island, New York and the

01:44:04

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Tom Lassner of Chris View Baptist Church in Big Spring, Texas and the

01:44:12

NASB is my Bible of choice. Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air.

01:44:19

Pastors, are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart? Consider restocking your pews with the

01:44:26

NASB and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:44:32

Go to nasbible .com that's nasbible .com to place your order.

01:44:43

Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read.

01:44:51

He who never quotes will never be quoted. He will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own.

01:45:00

You need to read. Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the

01:45:06

Prince of Preachers to heart. The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

01:45:19

Since its beginning in 2001 Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered,

01:45:24

Christ -exalting books for all ages. We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com

01:45:31

That's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past or present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

01:45:41

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We are excited to announce another new member of the

01:45:57

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio advertising family, Bhanu Gadi, owner of three

01:46:02

New York pharmacies, Lee's Drugs of Floral Park, Long Beach Chemists, and Prescription Center of Long Island in Hempstead.

01:46:11

Bhanu Gadi earned a doctorate in pharmacy degree and is very knowledgeable on the subject. coronavirus pandemic.

01:46:19

Please contact Dr. Gadi so he and his expert staff can give you proper guidance amid all the contradictory confusion we are all hearing in the media.

01:46:28

To find the pharmacy nearest you, call 516 -354 -2000.

01:46:34

That's 516 -354 -2000. Or order online at leesdrugsrx .com

01:46:42

That's L -E -E -S -D -R -U -G -S -R -X -D -O -T -C -O -M. Don't forget to ask about their discount generic drug program.

01:46:51

Welcome back! This is Chris Arnson and if you just tuned in, the second half of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is an interview with James Fryer who is an author and Marian apparition researcher and we are discussing global studies on Mariolatry and its implications on missions and our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:47:14

chrisarnson at gmail .com and we have Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania who asks, have you found in your studies of Mariolatry and the people who are predominantly guilty of that practice and belief system that they actually make

01:47:32

Jesus Christ out to be less tender and merciful and loving and graceful and approachable than Mary?

01:47:42

They seem to act as if that Mary is the go -between between Jesus and God or the mediator.

01:47:53

What are your thoughts on that? That's actually often seen kind of as a for that again and again as a perspective that Mary's, this tradition of Mary has grown as a more approachable, humble person who is more compassionate and all this.

01:48:13

And certainly we don't see that in Scripture. We do see that Christ is calling us to take his yoke upon us and he's gentle and lowly and he definitely is calling us to walk with him and take up our cross and follow him.

01:48:31

And so we certainly see the answer is really we have to go back to Scripture, back to kind of Christological perspective of Scripture or the actual

01:48:41

Christological framework that we see in the Scripture. We don't see anything like that in Scripture that says go to Mary as its first step to the less approachable

01:48:52

Christ. So certainly we see Scripture as Jesus, Jesus, Jesus is the central person we are called to.

01:49:00

He is our one we go to. He is the one that proceeds on our behalf, our high priest and the one who's who saves us.

01:49:11

We have Joseph in south central Pennsylvania who said you said earlier that you believe at least some of these apparitions or manifestations of something masquerading as Mary are actually demonic.

01:49:28

Are there any that you know of that are actually just frauds and the concoctions of charlatans who have staged these things or are all of the prominent ones you know of in your opinion actually demonic and from the spirit realm and actually manifesting and performing dark and satanic miracles?

01:49:54

I would have no doubt that some are absolutely fraudulent. Various types of things that you hear all kinds of strange traditions.

01:50:01

The Catholic Church actually has a whole framework of how they how they try to authenticate in apparitions and some are still kind of on the testing ground whether they're going to approve those apparitions or not include them in the approved ones.

01:50:16

And so which of course is ridiculous but the by and large maybe the

01:50:24

I don't know the accepted ones by Rome might I think become more and more demonic more and more outlandish more and more unbiblical.

01:50:34

Yes and my own understanding of this subject I haven't obviously done the exhaustive research that you have done but I understand that even

01:50:44

Roman Catholics are divided over what they would consider bona fide genuine apparitions of Mary whereas universally it seems all faithful Roman Catholics have a very high view of the

01:51:01

Fatima apparitions the Medjugorje apparitions in Yugoslavia are more hotly debated in fact

01:51:12

I know some traditionalist Roman Catholics that would be more prone to exclusive Latin right mass and so on that believe actually believe that the

01:51:27

Medjugorje apparitions are demonic and I think that the bishop of Medjugorje at least in the past and for many years has opposed the apparitions there have you seen that there is a division that I've just mentioned?

01:51:43

Yes yeah absolutely there is it's exactly true at the same time various popes and folks have traveled there

01:51:53

Catholic leadership traveled there I think some probably trying to discern whether it's they're going to endorse it or not but now that they do there is definitely throughout the history of popes for example you have kind of folks who are less focused on Mariology things and others more so where things have swung back to Francis being a extremely you know fanatically

01:52:26

Marian devotionalist and we have Ronald in eastern

01:52:32

Suffolk county Long Island who says I know that you are a friend and he's speaking to me here

01:52:38

I know that you are a friend of Ken Samples who co -authored the book The Cult of the Virgin Catholic Mariology and the

01:52:45

Apparitions of Mary and you have interviewed him on that subject I was wondering if your guest James Fryer was aware of this book?

01:52:54

Yes I've read it actually I use it I think I referenced it in my dissertations at least in my bibliography and I recommend the book it is well done

01:53:03

Yeah and it's interesting when I've had conversations with Catholics about it there have been some who get highly offended and they they are highly offended by the title of the book how dare he call it

01:53:17

The Cult of the Virgin why does he have to be so offensive? and I said well did you know that there's a

01:53:23

Roman Catholic term it's actually a term right out of the Vatican that they call the

01:53:28

Devotion to Mary The Cult of the Virgin so that's an interesting fact that a lot of people might not realize

01:53:36

Ken Samples and his co -author the late Elliot Miller were not seeking just to be harshly insulting by that title it just happens to be a

01:53:49

Roman Catholic phrase that is a large place in history and the

01:53:55

Devotion of Mary but I want you James in the last few minutes of the show just basically to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners and obviously sometime in the future we've got to have you back on for the full two hours because the time goes by too quickly to try to tackle a subject so deep oh absolutely that would be a great privilege of course

01:54:21

I think just that you know looking historically at this this trend is developing almost

01:54:30

I want to say a nice way kind of monstrosity of Marian dogma

01:54:35

Marian devotion that certainly we see a great divergence at the Reformation and the

01:54:41

Council of Trent and that they're really reformers begin to greatly discern and steer far away from these aberrant forms of worship and devotion to Mary but I think that maybe just looking at the missiological implications of it are so important I mean as you may have read missionary books have served on the mission field or your church is praying for the mission field there's nothing more grievous than things that I've read and seen personally where you have missionaries well -intended missionaries who will in fact you know in their training of leadership in other countries

01:55:25

I've seen this in Nicaragua where a missionary will in fact bring up in folks to train

01:55:32

Latin American pastors or Catholic priests and pray them in front of the

01:55:38

Catholic pastors involved in helping train them as if to say we can now move beyond the

01:55:47

Reformation and get back into kind of a unity with Rome I mean this is such a tragedy

01:55:55

I think that that's something that if you sense your church is going in this direction at all it's a huge red flag there's so much research on this and then this

01:56:07

I'm hoping to publish a book from this dissertation but it's so important and we're going to see

01:56:14

I think some division unfortunately even on the mission field where some are going to go the direction of the

01:56:22

Reformation and some are going to you know basically try to undo the

01:56:28

Reformation so this is a huge problem so I think in that you know we certainly pray help if you pray for Latin American churches pray for other churches in other places around the world in fact

01:56:43

Rome has targeted their place of focus that they have publicly stated is the continent of Africa they are going after Africa to you know promote

01:56:56

Catholicism throughout Africa and you know one of the things that oftentimes

01:57:04

American Christians are have a huge issue of kind of a sentimental unity that we don't see that and so it's one of the things that you know

01:57:16

I've heard from others that one of the men that I talked to an author who's a Reformed Baptist pastor in Rome actually and he said that you know the

01:57:24

American Evangelical Church has a huge problem with you know this almost a sentimental nostalgia of unity of sentimentals of wanting to bring unity to amongst you know

01:57:38

Evangelicals and Catholics and so it's something that we oftentimes are not very discerning about it's come back to haunt us again and again throughout history ecumenicism that is unhealthy undiscerning anti you know

01:57:53

Reformed in the sense of the great Reformed tradition that we hold to and defend so this is something that it's in our churches it's in America Christian bookstores and Christian churches and we've got to come to I think strong terms with this and you know play against it and oppose it amen well we're out of time and I want to make sure that our listeners are reminded that if they want to get the book that we mentioned that is not about our subject today it's not about Mariolatry but Battle Cry Reflections for Soul Readiness and the

01:58:29

Defense of the Gospel In and Out of Season which is our first which is the first book by our guest

01:58:34

James Fryer you could go to solid -ground -books .com solid -ground -books .com

01:58:40

and order that there and as far as ways that our listeners can keep updated on your dissertation on Mariolatry getting into print how do they keep up with you and find out more about updates yeah

01:58:55

I'm sorry I don't have any web page or anything up and going but I certainly you know you can get my email address potentially through the through the

01:59:04

Iron Sharpens Iron or from the research of the book the

01:59:10

Battle Cry book you could also I can just give my email address

01:59:15

I don't know if that's appropriate but it's james .r .fryer1 at gmail .com

01:59:21

I can help you with any research items or questions on this area certainly this dissertation is going to be in the research system like in colleges and seminaries that now all these types of papers are going into for research that will be available to people and we're out of time and I want to remind everybody listening that I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater savior than you are a sinner

01:59:50

I hope you all have a safe happy healthy blessed and Christ -honoring