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August 4, 2020
Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century Gospel Minister George Norcross in downtown Carwile, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the Church and the world today.
Proverbs 27, verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation, to make one another wiser and better.
It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth, who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.
This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this fourth day of August 2020. And I am thrilled after a long absence, the longest lull that we've had in having Phil Johnson on the program, who I believe still holds the record as the most frequently interviewed guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
Phil Johnson is back today on the program. He is the Executive Director of the Media Ministry of John MacArthur. Grace to you. And today we are going to be addressing when to draw the line in the sand when earthly powers make demands on the church.
And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Phil Johnson.
Hey, thanks, Chris. Good to be back with you. It has been too long.
Yes, it has. And you are indeed one of my very favorite guests of all time. And I always am edified and blessed by having conversations with you on the air. Look forward to the next time we can also see each other face to face and share fellowship again.
And I hope it is not too far off into the distant future.
Amen.
Let's, first of all, start off with anything that we need to get updated on in regarding you, your life and ministry. I know that the last time I spoke to you, I'm not even sure we were on the air, but I believe the Pyromaniacs blog has been relaunched.
Well, we sort of relaunched it. Yeah, that's been about two years ago. You know, I quit blogging because I really ran out of opinions. There wasn't much to say that I hadn't already expressed an opinion.
The social justice movement had this major reboot and began to sort of take. I just posted...
Well, what is the website for our listeners who can at least check out your occasional posts?
It's called teampyro .blogspot .com. Team, T-E-A-M. Pyromaniacs. And it'll come up.
Great. And for those of you who may be discovering the ministry of John MacArthur for the first time, unlikely for the vast majority of my listeners, but there are those that are new believers who do let me know that they have just come to faith in Christ recently.
And there are also those representing other religions outside of Christianity who listen to the show. So for those of you who are unaware of Grace To You, the website is gty .org, gty .org. And I strongly recommend that you begin to listen to the preaching and teaching of John MacArthur.
He is on both radio and television. And you can hear his sermons all over the place on the internet. And also you can hear Phil Johnson as well. So I hope that you are blessed and edified. Well, Dr. John MacArthur has been making even the secular news, such as Fox News, as of late because, even though the governor of California has insisted that churches, at least the size of Grace Community Church, cease from having public-gathered corporate worship for the time being indefinitely, I'm assuming, until they are satisfied with something that happens, like a cure for COVID -19 or at least a vaccine.
And from what I understand, and you could be more clear on this to clarify things, Dr. MacArthur, the pastor of Grace Community Church there in Sun Valley, California, he began to open up or reopen the sanctuary there for public gatherings.
And without even making any kind of formal announcements about it, the public-gathered saints grew to thousands again. And I remember him recently, I believe it was on Tucker Carlson, talking about how joyful and a blessing it was to see brothers and sisters who hadn't been worshiping together publicly in a while embracing and not wearing the masks and so on.
But if you could just pick up where I left off there.
Yeah, in fact, let me back up a bit. You know, from the beginning of the quarantine, when all of this in March, none of us really knew how the streets like Coralville could watch. And obviously, from the beginning of that, we said, this is inadequate for worship or replacement, plying with and praying for the people.
And also, when it started, you used to flatten the curve, or at least that was the thing here in California. 15 days, we thought, well, 15 days, at the 15 days we're up is non-essential, and it's at that point.
But the governor of California said, no, you can't do that. After a couple of weeks, very narrow restrictions on the number of people who could attend and all that. In the midst of all that, we said, look, this has gone on too long.
We've opened the church. We're going to begin the process slowly, quietly. We didn't, like you said, we didn't make a big announcement, but people began to come back. I think the first week, we were in the auditorium, more than 100.
We weren't going to turn people away who wanted to worship. And so we began doing that. And that crowd, after about a quarter, decided he was going to close the churches again. So he announced that he wanted churches to close again.
We basically, at that point, said, no, no. The governor doesn't have authority to tell us when and whether and how, and how many people can worship in the church. It's the First Amendment of the United States Constitution says that Congress can't make any law under year.
We think that's wrong, and that the people of God need to worship with a membership of, as far as I know, no one in our flock on the virus. It really seems we should just close down the church and keep even healthy people.
It is not the governor's prerogative to tell us we can't gather for worship. We've continued to do that. We'll see where it goes.
Yes, this is something, as you just mentioned, that is controversial and has divided the body of Christ, not only the body of Christ, but has even divided those that would share most of our beloved and cherished theological positions.
People who might be those that highly recommend John MacArthur's writings and his preaching ministry, people who are sometimes sharing the same pews when they attended public worship. I have had guests on this program from both sides of the argument, and I would be, at least at this point right now, thoroughly on board with Dr. MacArthur and you and the saints at Grace Community Church of Sun Valley, California.
And I had a recent guest who was basically siding with the side of caution and obeying the secular authorities because they are not literally forcing us to sin, the side that would say this is the most vivid way to demonstrate love to the neighbors, the lost around us, that we do care about their physical well-being and so on.
But a part of the story is something you just mentioned before. In fact, I'll be a little bit more detailed on it. Dr. MacArthur said something, I believe in both of his recent Fox News interviews, that according to the statistics, at least in California, you are 99 .98 likely to survive the COVID virus pandemic with little consequence.
And even if you get the disease, the virus, and therefore that was one compelling reason why he and the, I'm assuming, unanimous consent of the elders there, said enough is enough. We're not going to play this game anymore.
Right, and there's limited to sometimes 90 seconds in those interviews on the news. So he's using a simplified sort of, I think he's showing the ratio of the number of people in California versus the number of people who've died.
Even if you take the ratio of number of people who've tested positive and the number of people who've died, and then break it down into age groups, the truth is if you're under 65, if you get it. Quarantine is, frightening is when the governor, at least right now, is to keep churches closed.
Again, we were thinking three weeks, four weeks, at most, a month, 400, 500. Not one of them had COVID. They died from other causes. At least three of them died in isolation. They weren't even able to be visited.
And cemeteries, one graveside service during the quarantine at Forest Lawn, the biggest cemetery. And they had very strict rules, no more than 10 people. So the entire family couldn't even, and even the preacher had to wear a mask from everybody else, even though this was outdoors on a windy hillside, what this is.
And I think every reasonable person, we as believers, when you ask down churches, be clear about that. No, he doesn't.
Now, I have been told by those who are more on the side of Christians submitting to the restrictions and regulations and laws of the government, the secular government, even if they're unjust, as long as they don't compel us to sin.
And I'm not saying that everybody that I've interviewed on that side does not have their own line in the sand that they've drawn. There are those that say that this indefinitely clause that they want, that some governors want the public worship to be ended indefinitely, that they would think that that is too far.
There is a certain point when you say, no, no, no, this is enough. This is, you're going way overboard according to the actual facts of the threat posed by this pandemic. And there are those who say that the government, and we cannot obey the government's actual fiddling with or making restrictions and requirements on things that we actually do in a worship service.
Like for instance, the forbidding of singing and things like that. Some of the folks that would be more on the opposite side of Grace Community Church, some of those folks have even said, all right, that's just going way overboard because that is binding the consciences of Christians that is compelling us to sin if we were actually disobeying God when we gather, we were not doing everything he commanded us to do.
But if you could pick up.
You know, by the way, the governor of California just should not. Coalition had an article where they kind of left the question open and hanging, but saying it's worthy of consideration if people might get infected, should we not sing?
The problem is throughout history, infections, anytime you're in a crowd and more. So when people are singing and yet anyway, let me back up and say, I agree with those who say in general, when someone in a position of legitimate authority makes a law, even if you disagree with it, you should obey.
Like if you think the speed limit is too slow, you don't have the right to override that and drive faster, right? And the responsibility to make laws that govern the civil realm.
You just, you just accused 99 .99 of pastors with sin.
I get, I get that. And in all honesty, I have to confess, I've probably broken that law more than I care to admit. But it is a little bit different though. We're not saying we don't like the law. We don't have Caesar.
This is the same argument where if you're a Christian,.
What harm is done in your opinion? When Christians say, we should really be more inclined to continue bending over backwards and obeying the laws of the government because it hasn't been long enough for us to.
Uh,.
Defy government authorities and return to public gathered worship. We're still not being compelled to actually commit sin. And therefore, even though we may hate this, we should be doing this. And even to continue to be a loving testimony to the lost community.
Yeah. And I will acknowledge there is a war on Sunday to be closed down. Churches, mostly in rural areas, significant should meet or not be to guard the church from in the end. There's an element of persecution in this all and liquor stitch is non-essential.
Now, uh, I know that there are some listeners to Iron Troubles Iron Radio who think I could be obnoxious by bringing up the divide between Calvinism and Arminianism far too often and introducing it into topics where it doesn't make sense to mention it.
But I was wondering what your thoughts are on when those that profess to believe in the doctrines of sovereign grace, I think sometimes contradict that very, those very precious and biblical doctrines that we uphold about God being in sovereign control over everything, how we can think wrongly that people will go to hell if we are not always thinking of how the lost will favorably respond to our actions and our teachings and our conduct.
Now, obviously, I'm not talking about a license to sin or a license to be unloving, but can we, can we not take that kind of idea too far? As if we are in the, in control over the eternal destiny of our neighbors.
Yeah, there's no question about it. And I see where you're going with this and you're right. One of the frustrating things to me has been, and I wouldn't say it's only Calvinist, it is a think that somehow we can win the world's affection by yielding anything like this and that souls are going to be lost.
Deeper issue actually that's been ongoing even before the COVID, the neo Calvin happened is over to you and I have talked about what they, what the, how they think if we don't contextualize the affection, I think that's going to be.
Yes, I've even heard very well-known reformed people make statements that have baffled me who seem to be contradicting their own understanding of the fact that we only plant and water seeds and God gives the increase.
They give you an example. I won't mention the person's name because they don't have his quote right in front of me and I may misquote him to a degree, but somebody that is much beloved by folks in our circles and we both, I'm sure love some things that he has written and said, but a very well-known reformed individual is in some senses in his teaching and life, a pacifist and had publicly stated that if somebody was brutalizing his wife and children, he would not kill those attackers even if he had the capability to because in doing so, since they were demonstrating that they were lost in their actions, he would be sending them to hell and I remember hearing that and thinking how nonsensical that was because even if you want to look at it in those kinds of ways of determining how to think and act, if you let them live, they could go on and kill many other people who are lost and send them to hell.
So I mean, you know, it doesn't make any sense where you would be defying the fact that God is the one in control over where people spend eternity. But we have to go right now to our first station break.
If anybody would like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com c-h-r-i-s-a-r-n-z-e-n at gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.
Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Let's say you disagree with the way your church is responding to your own local governing authorities on restrictions and you don't want to draw identity to yourself because you're in disagreement with your own pastors or maybe you are a pastor yourself and you're disagreeing with your denomination or even your fellow elders, things like that, I could understand you'd want to remain anonymous.
But if it's a general question, please give us at least your first name, your city and state and your country of residence. We'll be right back with Phil Johnson right after these messages from our sponsors.
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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen if you just tuned us in our guest today is Phil Johnson the executive director of the media ministry of Dr. John MacArthur grace to you and we are addressing when to draw the line in the sand when earthly powers make demands on the church.
Our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com. Chrisarnzen at gmail .com. As always give us your first name city and state and country of residence if you live outside the USA only remain anonymous if their question involves a personal and private matter.
Phil I don't know if you saw the email from a listener that I forwarded to you during the station break but since it's rather lengthy I wanted you to see it ahead of time so you have time to think about the answer but I will read it now nonetheless our listener by the way I typically don't announce the full name of a listener with a question but since this is a pastor I highly respect and have known and loved for years I will help to plug his church.
He is pastor John T. Jeffrey very lovingly known by his friends as Jack and even Sergeant Jack due to his service in the military but he is pastor of Wayside Gospel Chapel in Greentown Pennsylvania and he says Phil emphasized the first amendment as did Dr. MacArthur during his Tucker Carlson interview.
First of all and foremost it is hold on a second I'm getting a phone call here. First of all and foremost it's a first amendment right. This is the United States of America and the government can't intrude in worship.
We stand on that amendment.
However.
In the Grace Community Church statement the first amendment was downplayed notice that we are not taking or we're not making a constitutional argument even though the first amendment of the United States Constitution expressly affirms the principle.
In its opening words. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. The right we are appealing to was not created by the Constitution. It is one of those inalienable rights granted solely by God who ordained human government and establishes both the extent and limitations of the state's authority as we see in Romans chapter 13 one through seven.
Our government therefore is purposely not grounded in the first amendment. It is based on the same biblical principles that the amendment itself is founded on. The exercise of true religion is a divine duty given to men and women created in God's image as we see in Genesis 1 26 through 27 Acts 4 18 through 20 and 5 29 and Matthew chapter 22 16 through 22.
In other words freedom of worship is a command of God not a privilege granted by the state. Did something change. Dr. MacArthur and the elders of Grace Community Church's views since the statement was issued.
That now has been has them emphasizing the first amendment.
Yeah I'm glad he asked that question because I think it reflects a misunderstanding of what the statement the point this statement was trying to make. He's not the only one who's raised that question but the statement.
My argument is it goes beyond that to a higher principle.
Not it's ultimately it's ultimately the bible.
Yeah oh it's not that we discount the first amendment it's that we're saying. In fact the key statement there is the freedom of worship is not a right is not a privilege that was granted to us by the state it's a right that is granted to us by God.
So we're appealing to a higher authority even than the than the constitution. But that principle is still in the constitution and if this ever come becomes a court case we'll absolutely appeal to the amendment which simply spells it out for the courts in america head of the church but doesn't have a that is spelled.
Yeah did not even the apostle paul appeal to roman law.
Right yeah.
When he was being wrongly persecuted and obviously he did not believe that roman law was the ultimate authority of uh right right.
And we're doing this we will do the same thing if this ever becomes a court freedom of worship right away. If there were actually other than that.
Well thank you sergeant jack and i look forward to having the opportunity to see you face to face for fellowship at some point in the near future. And once again the website for the wayside gospel chapel where our listener sergeant jack t jeffrey is the pastor is wayside gospel chapel dot blogspot dot com.
That's wayside gospel chapel dot blogspot dot com and that church is located. Uh i had the address right in front of me before. I don't know where it went but uh.
In town pennsylvania.
Oh well you get a better memory than i do.
No i just got the email you sent me.
So okay. Well thanks jack. Uh we have michelle. Oh by the way jack i don't think i could be wrong but i don't think you've ever sent in a question before. So this makes you eligible for a free new american standard bible.
If you are a first time uh questioner so send me your mailing address so that cvbbs .com cumberland valley bible book service can ship you a free new american standard bible. Compliments of the publishers of the nasb who are sponsors of this program.
We have michelle in holland massachusetts who says i would like to know if you and dr john macarthur think that that covid 19 is a judgment of god against a sinful world and if you think it is sifting true believers from those who claim to be believers but are not.
There's no doubt an element of truth in that i wouldn't say that that exhausts everything that the lord is doing in his providence. Through this you could also argue that there's a world tragedy or whatever.
There's always a great question is this a judgment. And in fact to die see a divine mercy that the lord that life is short and we will one day stand before the judgment.
Throne. Well michelle since you are a first time questioner please send us your full mailing address in massachusetts so that cv bbs .com can ship you out a free new american standard bible as well. We have rj in white plains new york and rj says.
I have heard in defense to churches obeying government restrictions on gathering for public worship a quote from matthew chapter 5 verse 41. Whoever forces you to go one mile go with them too. I have heard that quoted in reference to the fact that the roman authorities would at times compel someone to walk a mile for one reason or another and you were to even show greater submission and to be a greater testimony for christ by even doubling that.
How do you respond to that being used in this case.
Well you have to apply that text and it's not like like some of the other things jesus says in that same context if someone strikes you on the cheek turn the other cheek you you'll occasionally encounter people who will argue that the turn the other cheek command forbids any kind of self-defense or both.
Against thing the word. Actually it is not that extra mile thing if somebody asks you to do something that is would be hurtful to your family. Extra mile. What would the extra mile be. Close.
Well thank you rj. We have to go to our longer break our middle break right now. Grace life radio 90 .1 fm in lake city florida requires of us a longer break in the middle. They air the show twice a day in a pre-recorded format and the fcc requires of them to localize this show to lake city florida so therefore during this break they air their own public service announcements and other local things while we air our globally heard commercials.
So please use this time wisely. Write down as much of the information as you can for as many of our advertisers as you can so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize them or at least reply to them.
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Because we absolutely positively rely upon our advertisers to exist we need the financial support that they provide in order to conduct this daily program. So try to respond to the advertisers as much as possible and further ensure you will do that by writing down their information.
Also write down questions for phil johnson the executive director of grace to you and send them to chris arnzen at gmail .com. Chris arnzen at gmail .com. We're discussing when to draw the line in the sand when earthly powers make demands on the church.
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Hi. This is john sampson pastor of king's church in peoria arizona taking a moment of your day to talk about chris arnson and the iron sharpens iron podcast. I consider chris a true friend and a man of high integrity.
He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.
I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise and yet god has raised chris up for just such a time. And knowing this it's up to us as members of the body of christ to stand with such a in prayer and in finances.
I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting iron sharpens iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one-time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry.
I know it would be a huge encouragement to chris if you would. All the details can be found at iron sharpens iron radio dot com where you can click support. That's iron sharpens iron radio dot com.
Chris arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio announcing a new website with an exciting offer from world magazine my trusted source for news from a christian perspective. Try world now at no charge for 90 days by going to get world now dot com.
That's get world now dot com. I rely on world because i trust the reporting. I gain insight from the analysis and world provides clarity to the news stories that really matter. I believe you'll also find an invaluable resource to better understand critical topics with a depth that's simply not found in other media outlets armed with this coverage.
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Linbrook baptist church on 225 earl avenue in linbrook long island is teaching god's timeless truths in the 21st century.
Our church is far more than a sunday worship service. It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant. It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through.
Community involvement.
It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people in healing. We're a diverse family of all ages enthusiastically serving our lord jesus christ in fellowship play and.
Together. Hi i'm pastor bob waldeman and i invite you to come and join us here at linbrook baptist church and see all that a church.
Can be call linbrook.
Baptist at 516 -599 -9402 that's 516 -599 -9402 or visit linbrookbaptist .org that's linbrookbaptist .org.
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As host of iron sharpens iron radio i frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations. A church i've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is grace covenant baptist church in flemington new jersey.
Pastored by alan dunn. Grace covenant baptist church believes it's god's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he shall be represented in the world. They believe churches need to turn to the bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship god in spirit and truth.
Grace covenant baptist church endeavors to maintain a god centered focus reading preaching and hearing the word of god singing psalms hymns and spiritual songs. Baptism and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship performed with faith joy and sobriety.
Discover more about grace covenant baptist church in flemington new jersey at gc bc nj dot squarespace dot com. That's gc bc nj dot squarespace dot com. Or call them at 908 -996 -7654 that's 908 -996 -7654.
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Greetings in the matchless name of our lord jesus christ. My name is bhanu gadi. I'm a pharmacist in new york which is the epicenter of the latest crisis the world is going through. In psalm 139 verse 14 the psalmist offers praise to the lord like this.
I praise you because i'm fearfully and wonderfully made and wondrous are your works that my soul knows very well. He saw god's goodness and mercy kindness and the beauty in what god has designed and he has erupted into praise in any crisis or problem.
Brothers and sisters our only fallback position is to trust god's design. And once we do there is nothing for us to do but to erupt in praise to him when the whole world is searching for a solution. God in his infinite mercy has given us what we need to address this illness which can be very serious.
Such is the beauty of his design. Knowing that design how can we not erupt in praise to our great god like the psalmist did. May god bless you and give all of us wisdom to see greater things in his design.
Thank you.
Iron trump and zion radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the new american standard bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the iron trump and zion radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the nasb.
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Haddon spurgeon once said.
Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read. He who never quotes will never be quoted. He will not use the thoughts of other men's brains. Proves that he has no brains of his own.
You need to read.
Solid ground christian books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the prince of preachers to heart. The mission of solid ground christian books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to christians in the present and future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.
Since it's beginning in 2001 solid ground has been committed to publish god-centered christ exalting books for all ages. We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid-ground-books .com that's solid-ground-books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can unearth from solid ground.
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Please folks don't forget make solid-ground-books .com your very first stop for all your gift giving needs. Whether it be for birthdays wedding anniversaries back to school gifts bereavement gifts uh whether it be for retirement gifts whatever.
The reason being that you are purchasing a gift for someone you love or gifts plural. Please first and foremost go to solid-ground-books .com solid-ground-books .com and don't fall into the trap or the idea that you should be only purchasing your christian brothers and sisters gifts from solid-ground-books .com because the lost folks in your life lead christian literature even more.
Something that you purchase for them from solid-ground-books .com may be used by god to draw those you love who are lost to an eternally saved relationship with jesus christ. So please go to solid-ground-books .com and always remember to mention chris arnzen of iron sharpens iron radio as your source for discovering solid-ground-books .com before we return to our guest today phil johnson executive director of the media ministry of dr john macarthur grace to you and our discussion on when to draw the line in the sand when earthly powers make demands on the church.
Before we return to that we have some important announcements to make. Well first of all tomorrow our guests are two folks that are no strangers to my guest today phil johnson i'm speaking specifically of daryl bernard harrison who is on the staff at grace to you ministries and also his co-host for the just thinking podcast virgil walker.
Both daryl and virgil will be my guests tomorrow on iron sharpens iron radio. We are going to discuss a christian response to black lives matter and i'm sure a host of other issues are going to come up so i hope that you tune into that what i am sure will be fascinating program.
And then we have on thursday a dear friend of mine dr ron mckinney. Dr ron mckinney who is pastor of kinsey drive baptist church in dalton georgia. He is going to be discussing the doctrine of adoption and that is the theological doctrine of adoption although we may begin to discuss in an allegorical way the physical adoption today of of children by christian parents but the main theme is going to be the theological doctrine of adoption.
And then we have adam duly returning to this program. We had an interview with adam on monday and we are having him return on friday because there is so much that we didn't have the time to cover on his book hope when life unravels finding god when it hurts.
That's friday on iron trip and zion radio and tune in every day to this program. We've always got fascinating and edifying guests guests so we hope that you continue listening as often as you can. Also folks i hope as many of you listening join me on friday and saturday august 28th and 29th for the association of biblical counselors conference which is being held at the high point baptist church of larksville pennsylvania a church revitalization effort in northeastern pennsylvania through the grace advance ministry of john macarthur and grace to you ministries and this is going to be a conference i'm sure will equip you to be even a better servant of your own congregation where you are a and also a better ambassador for christ to all you meet and know.
This is going to be a very important conference at high point baptist church and the theme is the basics of biblical counseling. The speaker is dale johnson who is the president of association of certified biblical counselors also known as a cbc and dale will be addressing such subjects as the need for biblical counseling the definition and goal of biblical counseling progressive sanctification qualifications of a biblical counselor secular and integration theories and what makes biblical counseling biblical.
There'll also be a q and a session if you have any further questions that you need answered go to biblical counseling dot com forward slash scranton dash pa dash training that's biblical counseling dot com forward slash scranton s c r a n t o n and that is the location of the conference.
Larksville pennsylvania is a suburb of scranton biblical counseling dot com forward slash scranton s c r a n t o n dash pa dash training. You can also go to the high point baptist church for more details on the location high point baptist dot church high point baptist dot church.
And folks if you love this show and you don't want to disappear from the airwaves you look forward to sharing the free downloadable mp3s with family friends and loved ones. You love receiving free bibles and books uh that are given to our listeners when they send in questions especially if we're interviewing authors.
You love the fact that very often the guests and topics we cover are never heard anywhere else. Well please if you don't want us to disappear go to iron sharpens iron radio dot com click support then click click to donate now.
You can donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that fashion. And uh that's uh iron sharpens iron radio dot com click support and click click to donate now. You can also mail in a check via snail mail the old-fashioned way to the address that appears on the screen when you click support at iron sharpens iron radio dot com if you prefer snail mail i want to remind you please never siphon money away from your regular giving that you're accustomed to to your local church where you remember in order to give to iron sharpens iron radio.
Also never put your family in financial jeopardy if you're having a hard time making ends meet those two things are commands of scripture. Providing for your church and providing for your family. Providing for this radio show is obviously not a command of scripture.
But if you are blessed financially above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands perhaps you have a lot of extra money lying around because you haven't lost your job during the covid pandemic hysteria.
You have been saving money because you haven't been going to concerts. You haven't been going to the movies. You haven't been going to the theater to see theatrical performances and plays. You have not been going to bible conferences.
You have not been going out fine dining. You've not been going to see your favorite sports team perform at the arenas and coliseums where you have been frequenting supporting your local team or your favorite team.
Well these are all reasons why you may have extra money and that money i am more than happy to take some or all of it. If you would love to see iron sharpens iron remain on the air we are in very urgent need of your donations.
We lost two of our largest in fact our two largest financial supporters during the covid pandemic hysteria because their businesses were so severely affected by the quarantining. So we are asking you please if you want us to remain on the air please help us make up for that serious loss of income.
I thank all of you who are already doing that some of you who are faithfully continuing to give month after month after month and some of you who are giving the first time. Also i want to repeat again a wonderful woman in austin texas who i had never heard from before who broke all donation records when it comes to private personal individuals as opposed to businesses and ministries she broke all donation records with a gift that she sent in recently.
I want to thank her from the bottom of my heart and again i hope i meet you someday to thank you in person. But please folks if you have not already given or haven't given in a while or you want to increase your giving we surely could use it.
Go to iron sharpens iron radio dot com click support then click click to donate now. If you want to advertise with us as long as whatever it is you're promoting is compatible with what we believe send me an email to chris arnson at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line.
Also if you are in need of a local bible believing church no matter where in the world you live i have helped many people find churches in all parts of the planet earth where they have visited and joined or recommended to loved ones or visited when they're on vacation.
If you are in any of those categories or other categories that would involve you needing a local church please send me an email to chris arnson at gmail .com chris arnson at gmail .com and put i need a church in the subject line.
That's also the email address where you can send in a question to phil johnson with a question on what we are discussing today. When to draw the line in the sand when earthly powers make demands on the church that's chris arnson at gmail .com chris arnson at gmail .com we have a question that gives me a good time to remind our listeners of something very important.
If you request to be anonymous please please please put anonymous in the subject line or at least the very first word of your question because it's a good thing that i happen to have time to read the entire question i'm about to read in advance.
I usually don't have time to do that and i read these questions for the very first time live on the air. But our listener who wants to remain put the very last word of his question anonymous. That's not a good idea.
I'm glad i caught that in time. But our anonymous listener asks you phil is john macarthur and the church willing to take the reproach shame and embarrassment if the disease is spread in their congregation because of their congregating is john's decision to open his services based on his assessment of the disease statistics.
Would he have conceded to the government restriction if the statistics were more life-threatening and not use the language about listening to jesus and not caesar.
Yeah i mean all of those things. Figure in i'll be charged with that if there's any possibility people could get sick. The place free masks. That government itself isn't non-existent typically targeted to try to inform who are perfectly healthy.
So that's our disease the elders. Well thank you anonymous and.
We have bb in cumberland county pennsylvania who asks do you think a lot of the capitulation of many pastors in the united states if not around the world to cave in to the governing authorities when they are insisting that they close their doors for public corporate worship that the stem of this the root of this is really because of the fact that the church at large has adopted a very low view and a very low level importance for worship itself.
They actually think that watching and listening to a live streamed sermon suffices as worshiping god and spirit and truth. And even attendance and membership of the church has been diminished in importance to even be a non-important or essential requirement of true believers in christ.
People seem to think that they are fine and dandy and in good standing with god if they stay home every lord's day or just bounce around from church to church visiting at their leisure without submitting to the elders in any of them.
Yeah i mean i'm a genitals don't have a solid ecclesiology and it's related to a lot of things again that you and i chris. So it should be tailored to naturally that the with coming to the weekly search should serve a lot of our fellows.
I need this. How much i'm dependent. I mean you don't need the eye. So i think people are appreciating that people get a taste of what it's like not to have consciously and rationally.
Let's see where was that i was just looking at it. Uh oh we have harrison in mechanicsburg pennsylvania who asks and he begins with a statement i am an heir of the reformation through and through having abandoned the false and wicked false doctrines of the church of rome.
However do you think that many evangelicals have run too far in the opposite direction to the point where they no longer think that the ordinance of the church also known as sacraments to some are absolutely unimportant since we are saved by grace through faith alone.
And therefore they don't see a big deal of their churches being shut down or quarantined even if they do not have the ability to participate in the ordinances and therefore they are fine and dandy with the governors and local authorities keeping their doors closed.
Yep i think that's a factor as well. I think that's a good observation i would.
Also ask you in relation to that uh do you think that that uh the warning in scripture that there were those who fell asleep in death uh because of their improper observation of the lord's table do you think that that has.
That warning has application for today. Because the only reason i'm saying this is that there seems to be something very supernaturally powerful and significant about these things that we sometimes de-emphasize as merely and only being symbols and memorials and ceremonies.
I mean obviously in the early church if somebody were to die because of that of improper uh improperly approaching and partaking in the lord's supper that's something to at least uh be ringing in our ears in the back of our minds when we begin to take lightly the importance of the ordinance.
Yeah well let me ask answer those questions in sort of in order. Yes i think that warning has application today. When paul says you know for this cause many of you are weak and sickly and some even die.
He's talking about people who either abuse. It's a time to examine even death. What you have to understand is paul would be hesitant not even just how to interpret or death if you take it casually. Those who sow to the flesh shall of the flesh reap corrupt and can have in the physical realm.
And for those of.
You wondering uh where that exact text is that warns about those who have been weak sick and quote quote fallen asleep or died. It's first corinthians chapter 11 and the specific verse is 30. Um i want you before we go to our final break to reason with people who really think that you and dr macarthur and your elders and all that follows suit with you in agreement with you are in sin.
There are many things in the body of christ that are dividing us even as i said earlier not necessarily a conservative and liberal christendom because most of that which identifies as liberal christendom we wouldn't even think is true christianity.
Um but even brothers in christ who have the same doctrinal statement the same confession of faith the same constitutions uh they have been divided over this issue. And there are some who are saying we are in sin.
So how do you respond to that. Very.
Serious chart. Yeah. And then let me be fair with our critics has advised us fairly keeping the fulfilled your responsibility to the second grade the second great commandment not the second of the ten commandments of the second great commandment love your neighbor as yourself duties that that fulfilling his needs and so on.
And when it comes to fellowship but it you might be at risk all of that said. Also earlier masks and requires you might see this question show love to them whether they feel by the people who make fun of people for wearing masks as i am by the people who scold you if you don't have one but if you're if you're watching even.
Consistently wear the mask like jerry nadler and uh dr fauci and others. Uh you.
Know in their own private world yes which just seems totally irrational voluntarily are not wearing masks unwillingly put. The thing i've noticed is though the idea is just that you watch anybody who's wearing a mask that the mask off counteracts the the purpose because nobody wants to see right up against their.
Yeah that in fact that was.
The main criticism to begin with why we were being warned by dr fauci and others.
Don't wear a mask. Yeah. And and again i'm not trying to convince anybody who sees the app. It is clearly a dipper and their matter and not in fact virtually all the criticism. Outside our fellowship the people part of our church they are wearing them.
Think on our fellowship the best we can with that and real charity. Genuine love for one another requires finding our thoughts towards one another. It's not just about wearing masks. And we're going to our final break.
Right now and if you would like to submit a question of your own do so immediately because we're rapidly running out of time. This is a much shorter break than last two. Our email address is chris arntzen at gmail .com.
Chris arntzen at gmail .com. We'll be right back with phil johnson. Chris arntzen host of iron sharpens iron radio. Here i want to tell you about a man i have personally known for many years. His name is dan butta fuco.
Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer but not the type that typically comes to mind. Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself. Recently he wrote a book titled consider the evidence for the bible.
Ravi zacharias wrote the foreword. Dan also has a master's degree in theology. Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states. He represents many christians in serious injury matters all over the country.
Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer. He wrote the test for the national board of trial advocacy and currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for 1 million dollars or more and in approximately 10 different states.
In illinois his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history. In new york his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the law journal. If you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state i recommend that you call dan.
Consultations are free. There is no fee unless you win dan but a few goes. Number is 1 -800 -669 -4878. 1 -800 -669 -4878. Or email me for dan's contact information at chris arnzen at gmail .com. That's chris arnzen at gmail .com.
James white of alpha and omega ministries and the dividing line webcast here. Although god has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach preach and debate at numerous venues some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with pastor rich jensen and the brethren at hope reform baptist church now located at their new beautiful facilities in corum long island new york.
I've had the privilege of opening god's word from their pulpit on many occasions have led youth retreats for them and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my new york debates.
I do not hesitate to highly recommend hope reform baptist church of corum long island to anyone who wants to accurately taught discipled and edified by the holy scriptures and to be surrounded by truly loving and caring brothers and sisters in christ.
I also want to congratulate hope reform baptist church of corum for the recent appointment of pastor rich jensen's co-elder pastor christopher mcdowell. For more information on hope reform baptist church go to hope reformed li dot net that's hope reformed li dot net or call 631 -696 -5711 that's 631 -696 -5711.
Tell the folks at hope reform baptist church of corum long island that you heard about them from james white on iron sharpens iron radio.
When iron sharpens iron radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the new american standard bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the iron sharpens iron radio audience have been sticking with or switching to.
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Of choice. Here's a great way for your church to help keep iron trumpets iron radio on the air. Pastors. Are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart. Consider restocking your pews with the nasb and tell the publishers you heard about them from chris arnzen on iron trumpets iron radio.
Go to nas bible .com that's nas bible .com to place your order.
Pastor bill saso grace church at franklin. Here in the beautiful state of tennessee our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support iron sharpens iron radio financially. Grace church at franklin is an independent autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of god as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our lord jesus christ.
And of course the end of which we strive is the glory of god. If you live near franklin tennessee and franklin is just south of nashville maybe 10 minutes or you are visiting this area or you have friends and loved ones nearby we hope you will join us some lord's day in worshiping our god and savior.
Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about grace church at franklin. Our website is grace church at franklin .org. That's grace church at franklin .org. This is pastor bill saso. Wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign lord god savior and king jesus christ today and always.
Bhanu gadi earned a doctorate in pharmacy degree and is very knowledgeable on the current coronavirus pandemic please contact dr gadi so he and his expert staff can give you proper guidance amid all the contradictory confusion we are all hearing in the media.
To find the pharmacy nearest you call 516 -354 -2000 that's 516 -354 -2000 or order online at lee's drugs rx .com. That's l-e-e-s drugs rx .com. Don't forget to ask about their discount generic drug program.
Is your business shut down during the covid 19 pandemic depriving you of earning any money causing you to default on your rent as you try to survive without income. Maybe you've had to close your doors for good.
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Do not give up no matter what state you live in call but if you go and associates now at 1 -800 -669 -4878. But if you go and associates as a part of a multi-district litigation and they are working with lead counsel to bring what they believe will be a successful lawsuit for these claims it is the best way for you to proceed.
There's absolutely no risk to you. You do not have to pay them out of pocket and there is no fee unless you recover on your claim you need to call 1 -800 -669 -4878 right now. Trust the law firm where the attorneys at one of the largest business firms on Long Island New York are sending their own clients for representation during this lawsuit.
But if you go and associates here to help business owners rebuild their lives in the wake of the pandemic call 1 -800 -669 -4878. Welcome back. This is Chris Barnes and this is the final segment of our interview with Bill Johnson executive director of great to you the ministry the media ministry of Dr. John MacArthur.
If you have a question send it in immediately to chrisarnsen at gmail .com chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Before we take any additional listener questions Phil I'd like you to have at least three minutes to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today about this subject.
About this subject I would say it's the importance of Christ it's the body for which he gave his life and we. There is nothing that happens should not imminence we might we might have to for a week or two here that this virus that originally moving back take the assembly.
Well we do have time for one more question. We have Bobby in Hartsdale New York who says. Is it not demonstrating a lack of love by preventing those lost neighbors that are so frequently brought up as seeing the church in an ill light because we open for worship services.
Is it not the biggest lack of love to not have our open arms in our public worship available to them when they may be in more need of visiting the gathered church either for experiencing the public worship or for private counsel than.
Anyone else. Yes well that's exactly the point. And and it's not a hypothetical it is true that people have uh their lives have been destroyed people have been ordinary numbers something like 15 ,000 restaurants a lot of the fears that all the news and it's the church and remind.
Our listeners that if you want more information about. Grace to you uh the ministry where our guest serves as executive director the ministry of john macarthur. Gty .org. Gty .org. Thank you so much phil for always doing such an extraordinary job as our guest.
In fact if you could hold on the line i want to schedule you for our next interview if that's possible. I want to thank everybody who listened especially those who took the time to write. I want you all to remember for the rest of your lives that jesus christ is a far greater savior than you are a sinner.