August 4, 2020 Show with Phil Johnson on “When to Draw the Line in the Sand When Earthly Powers Make Demands on the Church”

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions and now here's your host

Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensirenradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this fourth day of August 2020 and I am thrilled after a long absence of the longest lull that we've had in having

Phil Johnson on the program who I believe still holds the record as the most frequently interviewed guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Phil Johnson is back today on the program he is the executive director of the media ministry of John MacArthur, grace to you, and today we are going to be addressing when to draw the line in the sand when earthly powers make demands on the church and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Phil Johnson.

Hey thanks Chris good to be back with you it has been too long. Yes it has and you are indeed one of my very favorite guests of all time and I always am edified and blessed by having conversations with you on the air.

Look forward to the next time we can also see each other face to face and share fellowship again and I hope it is not too far off into the distant future.

Amen. Let's first of all start off with anything that we need to get updated on in regarding you your life and ministry.

I know that the last time I spoke to you I'm not even sure we were on the air but I believe the

Pyromaniacs blog has been relaunched. Well we sort of relaunched it, yes that was about two years ago.

You know I quit blogging because I really ran out of opinions there wasn't much to say that I hadn't already expressed an opinion on and then the social justice movement had this major reboot and began to sort of take over the discussion among evangelicals and so many people were making arguments and saying things in favor of a sort of quasi -Neo -Marxist view of social justice.

I found myself wanting to say more and more so we sort of came back on the air briefly

I wrote with two or three other guys that kept going for maybe a year and a half or so and now

I just post blog posts sporadically whenever I have something that I really want to say there's no better place to put it

I'll just add it to the blog. So yeah it's active but not nearly as active as it was in its heyday.

We used to post every single day and now I post about every other week. Well, what is the website for our listeners who can at least check out your occasional posts?

It's called teampyro .blogspot .com team t -e -a -m pyro .blogspot

.com or you can just do a Google search for pyromaniacs and it'll come up.

Great, and for those of you who may be discovering the ministry of John MacArthur for the first time unlikely for the vast majority of my listeners but there are those that are new believers who do let me know that they have just come to faith in Christ recently and there are also those representing other religions outside of Christianity who listen to the show so for those of you who are unaware of Grace To You the website is gty .org

gty .org and I strongly recommend that you begin to listen to the preaching and teaching of John MacArthur.

He is on both radio and television and you can hear his sermons all over the place on the internet and also you can hear

Phil Johnson as well so I hope that you are blessed and edified.

Well, Dr. John MacArthur has been making even the secular news such as Fox News as of late because even though the governor of California has insisted that churches at least the size of Grace Community Church cease from having public gathered corporate worship for the time being indefinitely

I'm assuming until they are satisfied with something that happens like a cure for COVID -19 or at least a vaccine and from what

I understand and you could be more clear on this to clarify things Dr. MacArthur pastor of Grace Community Church there in Sun Valley California he began to open up or reopen the sanctuary there for public gatherings and without even making any kind of formal announcements about it the public gathered saints grew to thousands again and I remember him recently

I believe it was on Tucker Carlson talking about how joyful and a blessing it was to see brothers and sisters who hadn't been worshipping together publicly in a while embracing and not wearing the masks and so on but if you could just pick up where I left off there.

Yeah in fact let me back up a bit you know from the beginning of the quarantine when all of the shutdowns were instituted in March none of us really knew how severe the

COVID -19 crisis would be some of the news reports were predicting you know bodies stacked in the streets like cordwood and it sounded like a real dire epidemic of death was about to befall us and so you know when the government asked everybody to close and everything to close down Grace Church also went to live stream services where John MacArthur would preach to an empty auditorium for a few weeks and then that would be live streamed so people could watch and obviously from the beginning of that we said this is inadequate for worship this is not a suitable replacement for congregational worship but we are doing this for the time being because we want to follow the principle of 1st

Timothy 2 where we seek to live peaceable and quiet lives by you know complying with and praying for the people who are in authority in the secular realm and also when it started you remember that the slogan was 15 days to flatten the curve or at least that was the thing here in California 15 days we thought well 15 days at most could be 3

Sundays that we would have to be on hiatus and when the 15 days were up they said we need another 15 days and that 30 day shutdown turned into 2 months and then 3 and finally the

President at one point President Trump said he wasn't happy that governments were treating liquor stores and abortion clinics as essential businesses and letting them stay open but saying that the church is non -essential and it needs to open so we began to open the church at that point but the

Governor of California said no you can't do that after a couple of weeks he relented and said ok the churches can open but with these restrictions and he had very narrow restrictions on the number of people who could attend and all that in the midst of all that we said look this has gone on too long people are starved for fellowship we need to open the church we're going to begin the process slowly quietly we didn't like you said we didn't make a big announcement but people began to come back

I think the first week there were 600 people in the auditorium even though the Governor had said no more than 100 we weren't going to turn people away who wanted to worship and so we began doing that and that crowd grew over the weeks till last

Sunday it was 5000 people somewhere along the line after about 10 days or 2 weeks the

Governor decided he was going to close the churches again so he announced that he wanted churches to close again we basically at that point said no

Christ is Lord of the church not Caesar the Governor doesn't have authority to tell us when and whether and how and how many people can worship in the church it's the first amendment of the

United States Constitution says that Congress can't make any law that restricts the freedom of worship so we've continued to do that and I think you know there is a bit of controversy about it some people even

Christians who think better to suspend worship there are some churches who have already announced that they're going to stay closed through the remainder of the calendar year high profile churches doing that we think that's wrong and that the people of God need to come together we haven't had anybody in Grace Church with a membership of I don't know 12 ,000 people or so as far as I know no one in our flock has died from the virus

I don't know anyone who is currently testing positive for it there really seems no good reason that we should just close down the church and keep even healthy people away from worship so arguing that look it is not the governor's prerogative to tell us we can't gather for worship we've continued to do that we'll see where it goes yes this is something as you just mentioned that is controversial and has divided the body of Christ not only the body of Christ but has even divided those that would share most of our beloved and cherished theological positions people who might be those that highly recommend

John MacArthur's writings and his his preaching ministry people who are sometimes sharing the same pews when they attended public worship

I have had guests on this program from both sides of the argument and I would be at least at this point right now thoroughly on board with Dr.

MacArthur and you and the Saints at Grace Community Church of Sun Valley California and I had a recent guest who was basically siding with the side of caution and obeying the secular authorities because they are not literally forcing us to sin the side that would say this is the most vivid way to demonstrate love to the neighbors the lost around us that we do care about their physical well -being and so on but a part of the story is something you just mentioned before in fact

I'll be a little bit more detailed on it Dr. MacArthur said something I believe in both of his recent

Fox News interviews that according to the statistics at least in California you are 99 .98

percent likely to survive the

COVID virus pandemic with little consequence and even if you get the disease the virus and therefore that was one compelling reason why he and the

I'm assuming the unanimous consent of the elders there said enough is enough we're not going to play this game anymore right and understand you know he's limited to sometimes 90 seconds in those interviews on the news so he's using a simplified sort of summary of what the issues are you can you can look at those statistics different ways

I think he's showing the ratio of the number of people in California versus the number of people who've died even if you take the ratio of number of people who've tested positive and the number of people who've died and then break it down into age groups the truth is if you're under 65 your odds of surviving if you get the virus are almost 100 % it's the death counts that you hear are predominantly older people most of the high numbers of deaths the concentrations of people who've died have been in nursing homes and mostly back in the in the

Northeast not in California so depends on how you look at the statistics but anyway you look at the statistics the odds are you're going to survive if you get it and people are going to get it the problem with the quarantine is it doesn't make the virus go away it just slows down the rate of infection so people are going to be infected with the virus no matter when they release the quarantine and what's most frightening is when the at least from our perspective as the church when the governor reinstituted the ban on churches he called it indefinite he said it was indefinitely and then the very next day in the news they announced that they were canceling the rose parade

January 1st so it seems pretty clear that the governor's intention at least right now is to keep churches closed through the end of the year now when this began we were thinking three weeks four weeks at most a month we could tolerate a live streaming service but we cannot close down all the ministries of the church for the better part of a year you just can't do it

I pastor a flock of 400 500 people within Grace Church and which means

I'm responsible for funerals weddings anything like that in my little group we've had four people die since the beginning of the quarantine not one of them had covered they died from other causes at least three of them died in isolation they weren't even able to be visited by their families as they were dying and the doctors knew they were dying but they they couldn't have visitors so they died alone and we can't in California under strict regulations

I did do one graveside service during the quarantine at Forest Lawn the biggest cemetery

I think probably in California and they had very strict rules no more than 10 people so the entire family couldn't even come to to bury their beloved one and even the preacher had to wear a mask and stay six feet away from everybody else even though this was outdoors on a windy hillside the restrictions are a gross overreaction to the reality of what this is and I think every reasonable person understands that so at some point you have to say look there are certain things that a secular governor might declare non -essential that we as believers do not believe are non -essential and when you when you ask does the governor really have the authority to shut down churches

I think the Constitution is pretty clear about that no he doesn't now I have been told by those who are more on the side of Christians submitting to the restrictions and regulations and laws of the government the secular government even if they're unjust as long as they don't compel us to sin and I'm not saying that everybody that I've interviewed on that side does not have their own line in the sand that they've drawn there are those that say that this indefinitely clause that they want that some governors want the public worship to be ended indefinitely that they would think that that is too far there is a certain point when you say no no no this is enough this is you're going way overboard according to the actual facts of the threat posed by this pandemic and there are those who say that the government and we cannot obey the government's actual fiddling with or making restrictions and requirements on things that we actually do in a worship service they like for instance the forbidding of singing and things like that some of the folks that would be more on the opposite side of Grace Community Church and some of those folks have even said all right that's just going way overboard because that is binding the consciences of Christians that is compelling us to sin if we were actually disobeying

God when we when we gather we are not doing everything he commanded us to do but if you could pick up you know by the way the governor of California has ruled that churches should not sing there should be no congregational singing so that is one of the rules he's made and there are churches in California who argue that we ought to submit to that we ought to stop singing and even the gospel coalition had an article where they kind of left the question open and hanging but saying it's worthy of consideration if people might get infected should we not sing the problem is throughout history you risk catching viral infections anytime you're in a crowd and more so when people are singing and yet scripture does command us to sing anyway let me let me back up and say

I agree with those who say in general when someone in a position of legitimate authority makes a law even if you disagree with it you should obey like if you think the speed limit is too slow you don't have the right to override that and drive faster because that is

Caesar's he has the right and the responsibility to make laws that govern the civil realm you've just you've just accused 99 .99

% of pastors with sin I get that and in all honesty

I have to confess I've probably broken that law more than I care to admit but I can't justify that biblically our argument here is a little bit different though we're not saying we don't like the law therefore we don't have to obey it what we're saying is that no in this case

Caesar has overstepped his bounds and taken over in a realm where only

Christ is head of the church Caesar can't make laws telling us how when and how many or what methodology to worship and this is not a new problem this has been an issue through church history it's it's the very question that drove most of the

Puritans out of the Church of England when the English government wanted to mandate that they wear vestments and go by the prayer book you could make the same argument there they could have done that and not been guilty of any sin but their argument was this is not the domain of Caesar this is the this is the domain of Christ he is

Lord of the church and therefore we reject Caesars attempts to meddle in business that belongs to Christ that's the same argument we're we're making here if the governor suddenly made a rule that everybody going to church has to wear you know well like they did in Germany if you're

Jewish you have to wear a star what if the governor of California said if you're a Christian you have to wear a cross emblazoned on somewhere on your person that's that's a law he has no right to make and I would hope that as believers we would say look that's that's not the purview of the government to make laws like that and therefore we respectfully but firmly refuse to obey an illegal order now what harm is done in your opinion when

Christians say we should really be more inclined to continue bending over backwards and obeying the laws of the government because it hasn't been long enough for us to defy government authorities and return to public gathered worship we're still not being compelled to actually commit sin and therefore even though we may hate this we should be doing this and even to continue continue to be a loving testimony to the lost community yeah and I will acknowledge there is some subjectivity in that there were churches who said look even one

Sunday to be closed down is over the line we're not going to do that and they refused to close down mostly smaller churches mostly in rural areas where wasn't much of a threat anyway they said the government has no right to shut us down so we're going to continue to worship lots of churches or I should say a significant significant minority of churches took that position from the beginning we're saying now it's gone on far too long already and there are others who are saying we can stand this for a little bit longer eventually all of them are going to have to come to the realization that you cannot yield to Caesar the right to say whether the church should meet or not and what they do when they meet you know forbidding singing and telling people they have to wear masks and all of that does the government have the right to do that we're saying no no

I think that the elders of the church have the responsibility to guard the church from you know infection or whatever they can take advice from the government they can watch what's happening and make those decisions but it really is not the government's right to step in and mandate how the church should worship when they should worship how many people should attend it's just it opens a door that in the end somewhere down the line is going to be used to persecute the church and in fact many of us believe there's an element of persecution in this already because when you say no no abortion clinics and liquor stores massage parlors gambling casinos all of these things are essential businesses and therefore they can stay open but the church is non -essential and it has to close there is a built -in element of persecution there now

I know that there are some listeners to our enterprise on radio who think

I could be obnoxious by bringing up the divide between Calvinism and Arminianism far too often and introducing it into topics where it doesn't make sense to mention it but I was wondering what your thoughts are on when those that profess to believe in the doctrines of sovereign grace

I think sometimes contradict that very those very precious and biblical doctrines that we uphold about God being in sovereign control over everything how we can think wrongly that people will go to hell if we are not always thinking of how the lost will favorably respond to our actions and our teachings and in our conduct now obviously

I'm not talking about a license to sin or a license to be unloving but can we can we not take that kind of idea too far as if we are in control over the eternal destiny of our neighbors yeah there's no question about it and I see where you're going with this and you're right one of the frustrating things to me has been and I wouldn't say it's only

Calvinist it is a compromise perhaps of the

Calvinist view of divine sovereignty to think that somehow we can win the world's affection or admiration or whatever by by yielding anything like this and that souls are going to be lost if we don't that's a deeper issue actually that's been ongoing even before the

COVID crisis in the neo -Calvinist movement I think what's 40 years pragmatism and you know seeker sensitive religion these things you and I have talked about many times have become so deeply ingrained in the evangelical you know way of thinking that even it's affected even young Calvinists who say you know we believe

God is sovereign we believe the gospel is the power of God unto salvation all of that but then say look if we don't somehow accommodate what the world is currently doing what they what they love what they watch how they think if we don't contextualize the gospel to that and and sort of win people's attention and affection by talking about what they're interested in so we observe everything from social justice to you know whatever the latest popular movie is and that's what we preach about because somehow we think that's going to be more potent or more effective than the gospel itself in bringing people who are dead and trespasses and sins into the light of the gospel and awakening them to Christ you're right that's a that is a total abandonment of a genuine confidence in the sovereignty of God and the power of yes

I've even heard very well -known reformed people make statements that have baffled me who seem to be contradicting their own understanding of the fact that we only plant them water seeds and God gives the increase they give you an example

I won't mention the person's name because I don't have his quote right in front of me and I may misquote him to a degree but somebody that is much beloved by folks in our circles and we both

I'm sure love some things that he has written and said but a very well -known reformed individual is in some senses in his teaching and life a pacifist and had publicly stated that if somebody was brutalizing his wife and children he would not kill those attackers even if he had the capability to because in doing so since they were demonstrating that they were lost in their actions he would be sending them to hell and I remember hearing that and thinking how nonsensical that was because even if you want to look at it in those kinds of ways of determining how to think and act if you let them live they could go on and kill many other people who are lost and send them to hell so I mean you know it doesn't make any sense where you would be defying the fact that God is the one in control over where people spend eternity but we have to go right now to our first station break if anybody would like to join us on the air our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com please give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter let's say you disagree with the way your church is responding to your own local governing authorities on restrictions and you don't want to draw identity to yourself because you're in disagreement with your own pastors or maybe you are a pastor yourself and you're disagreeing with your denomination or even your fellow elders things like that I could understand you'd want to remain anonymous but if it's a general question please give us at least your first name your city and state and your country of residence we'll be right back with Phil Johnson right after these messages from our sponsors was your business shut down during the

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He saw God's goodness and mercy, kindness, and the beauty in what

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Thank you. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you've just tuned us in, our guest today is

Phil Johnson, the Executive Director of the Media Ministry of Dr. John MacArthur.

Grace to you. And we are addressing when to draw the line in the sand when earthly powers make demands on the church.

Our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

As always, give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter.

Phil, I don't know if you saw the email from a listener that I forwarded to you during the station break, but since it's rather lengthy,

I wanted you to see it ahead of time so you have time to think about the answer. But I will read it now.

Nonetheless, our listener, by the way, I typically don't announce the full name of a listener with a question, but since this is a pastor

I highly respect and have known and loved for years, I will help to plug his church.

He is Pastor John T. Jeffrey, very lovingly known by his friends as Jack and even

Sergeant Jack due to his service in the military. He is Pastor of Wayside Gospel Chapel in Greentown, Pennsylvania.

He says Phil emphasized the First Amendment, as did Dr. MacArthur during his

Tucker Carlson interview. First of all and foremost, it is a

First Amendment right. This is the United States of America and the government can't intrude in worship.

We stand on that amendment. However, in the Grace Community Church statement, the

First Amendment was downplayed. Notice that we are not taking or not making a constitutional argument even though the

First Amendment of the United States Constitution expressly affirms the principle in its opening words,

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

The right we are appealing to was not created by the Constitution. It is one of those inalienable rights granted solely by God who ordained human government and establishes both the extent and limitations of the state's authority as we see in Romans chapter 13, 1 -7.

Our government, therefore, is purposely not grounded in the First Amendment. It is based on the same biblical principles that the amendment itself is founded on.

The exercise of true religion is a divine duty given to men and women created in God's image as we see in Genesis 1, 26 -27,

Acts 4, 18 -20, 5 -29, and Matthew 22, 16 -22.

In other words, freedom of worship is a command of God, not a privilege granted by the state.

Did something change in Dr. MacArthur and the elders of Grace Community Church's views since the statement was issued that now has them emphasizing the

First Amendment? No, I'm glad he asked that question because I think it reflects a misunderstanding of what the statement, the point the statement was trying to make.

He's not the only one who's raised that question, but the statement doesn't downplay the

First Amendment. It's just saying our argument is it goes beyond that to a higher principle. It's ultimately the

Bible. Yeah, it's not that we discount the First Amendment. It's that we're saying, look, in fact, the key statement there is the freedom of worship is not a right, is not a privilege that was granted to us by the state.

It's a right that is granted to us by God. So we're appealing to a higher authority than the

Constitution. But that principle is still in the Constitution, and if this ever becomes a court case, we'll absolutely appeal to the

Constitutional Amendment, which simply spells it out for the courts in America, the principle that we're arguing, which is that Christ is the head of the

Church, not Caesar. So the government doesn't have a right to restrict our worship.

That is spelled out in the First Amendment. We're not discounting that or downplaying it. We're pointing out that it's based on a higher authority than the

Constitution itself. Yeah, did not even the Apostle Paul appeal to Roman law when he was being wrongly persecuted?

And obviously, he did not believe that Roman law was the ultimate authority over what? Right, and we're doing this.

We will do the same thing if this ever becomes a court case. But what we want to stress here is that freedom of worship, if it were a privilege, merely a privilege that the government granted, then it would be a privilege the government could take away.

We're saying the government didn't give us this as a privilege. The government in the First Amendment simply recognized that what divine principle has already established, and therefore no

Constitutional Amendment or government power has the rightful authority to take that right away.

It's a God -given right and not a government -given privilege.

That's the point we're making. It's not to downplay the First Amendment. It's to point out that we're actually appealing to a higher authority than that.

Well, thank you, Sergeant Jack, and I look forward to having the opportunity to see you face -to -face for fellowship at some point in the near future.

And once again, the website for the Wayside Gospel Chapel, where our listener,

Sergeant Jack T. Jeffrey, is the pastor, is waysidegospelchapel .blogspot

.com. That's waysidegospelchapel .blogspot .com.

And that church is located... I had the address right in front of me before.

I don't know where it went. It's in town, Pennsylvania. Oh, well, you've got a better memory than I do. No, I've just got the email you sent me.

Okay. Well, thanks, Jack. We have Michelle.

Oh, by the way, Jack, I don't think... I could be wrong, but I don't think you've ever sent in a question before, so this makes you eligible for a free

New American Standard Bible if you are a first -time questioner. So send me your mailing address so that cvbbs .com,

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, can ship you a free New American Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers of the

NASB, who are sponsors of this program. We have Michelle in Holland, Massachusetts, who says,

I would like to know if you and Dr. John MacArthur think that COVID -19 is a judgment of God against a sinful world, and if you think it is sifting true believers from those who claim to be believers but are not.

There's no doubt an element of truth in that. I wouldn't say that that exhausts everything that the

Lord is doing in His providence through this. You could also argue, and we bring this up frequently, whenever there's a world tragedy or whatever, there's always a great question, is this a judgment from God?

And in fact, on Sunday, John MacArthur preached from Luke 13, where the tower falls and kills a bunch of people, and he asked

Jesus, why did this happen to these people? Why were they killed? Were they worse sinners than the rest of the people in our country?

And Jesus said, no, unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

Which sounds like a harsh thing to say, but what Jesus is actually saying there is, for you who survive this, it's not a judgment, it's a mercy.

It's a warning from God and a reminder that you will face His judgment someday when your sins are irremediable.

You'll stand before God after death because it's appointed on a man once to die, and after this, the judgment.

And so, as we see people around us get sick and die, for those of us who survive,

I think we should look at it as a mercy, a divine mercy, that the Lord let us live with a reminder that life is short, and we will one day stand before the judgment throne.

Well, Michelle, since you are a first -time questioner, please send us your full mailing address in Massachusetts, so that CVBBS .com

can ship you out a free New American Standard Bible as well. We have

RJ in White Plains, New York, and RJ says,

I have heard, in defense to churches obeying government restrictions on gathering for public worship, a quote from Matthew chapter 5, verse 41, whoever forces you to go one mile, go with them two.

I have heard that quoted in reference to the fact that the

Roman authorities would at times compel someone to walk a mile for one reason or another, and you were to even show greater submission and to be a greater testimony for Christ by even doubling that.

How do you respond to that being used in this case? Well, you have to apply that text wisely, and it's not...

Like some of the other things Jesus says in that same context, if someone strikes you on the cheek, turn the other cheek, you'll occasionally encounter people who will argue that the turn -the -other -cheek command forbids any kind of self -defense or even for a nation to go to war.

It rules that out. We should never use any retributive violence. And yet,

Romans 13 clearly says that the powers that be are ordained by God.

It's talking there about people who enforce rules against things that are clearly evil, and it says that they don't wield the sword in vain.

In other words, they are...and it goes on to say they're ministers of God for good. When they use force to stop crime or put an end, sometimes the sword actually is an instrument of death.

So that text even makes room for capital punishment and policemen who use deadly force and things like that.

So because both of those texts are inspired Scripture, we know that the turn -the -other -cheek command is not that sort of absolute rule.

Same thing with the go -an -extra -mile thing. If somebody asks you to do something that is wrong or that would be hurtful to your family or, in this case, something that puts an end to public congregational worship and leaves literally thousands, if not millions, of Christians without fellowship, teaching, an opportunity to worship and sing, you're not obligated to go an extra mile.

What would the extra mile be? Close down the church permanently? That is really not a valid application of that text.

He's not speaking there to churches who are either being oppressed or asked to do things they shouldn't do by the government.

He's not saying capitulate to wrongful commands or illegal orders.

Well, thank you, RJ. We have to go to our longer break, our middle break right now.

Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle.

They air the show twice a day in a pre -recorded format, and the FCC requires of them to localize this show to Lake City, Florida.

So, therefore, during this break, they air their own public service announcements and other local things, while we air our globally heard commercials.

So, please, use this time wisely. Write down as much of the information as you can for as many of our advertisers as you can, so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize them, or at least reply to them, even thank them for their sponsorship of this program.

And that will, God willing, lead to them wanting to remain our advertisers, which in turn will,

God willing, subsequently mean that we will remain on the air for a longer future, because we absolutely, positively rely upon our advertisers to exist.

We need the financial support that they provide in order to conduct this daily program. So, try to respond to the advertisers as much as possible, and further ensure you will do that by writing down their information.

Also, write down questions for Phil Johnson, the Executive Director of Grace to You, and send them to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. We're discussing when to draw the line in the sand when earthly powers make demands on the church.

Don't go away. We'll be right back with Phil Johnson after these messages from our sponsors.

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That's liyfc .org. As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

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Before we return to our guest today, Phil Johnson, Executive Director of the

Media Ministry of Dr. John MacArthur, grace to you and our discussion on when to draw the line in the sand when earthly powers make demands on the church.

Before we return to that, we have some important announcements to make. First of all, tomorrow our guests are two folks that are no strangers to my guest today,

Phil Johnson. I'm speaking specifically of Darrell Bernard Harrison, who is on the staff at Grace to You Ministries, and also his co -host for the

Just Thinking podcast, Virgil Walker. Both Darrell and Virgil will be my guests tomorrow on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

We are going to discuss a Christian response to Black Lives Matter, and I'm sure a host of other issues are going to come up.

So I hope that you tune into that, what I am sure will be a fascinating program.

And then we have on Thursday a dear friend of mine,

Dr. Ron McKinney. Dr. Ron McKinney, who is pastor of Kinsey Drive Baptist Church in Dalton, Georgia.

He is going to be discussing the doctrine of adoption, and that is the theological doctrine of adoption.

Although we may begin to discuss in an allegorical way the physical adoption today of children by Christian parents, but the main theme is going to be the theological doctrine of adoption.

And then we have Adam Dooley returning to this program. We had an interview with Adam on Monday, and we are having him return on Friday because there is so much that we didn't have the time to cover.

On his book, Hope When Life Unravels, Finding God When It Hurts. That's Friday on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and tune in every day to this program.

We've always got fascinating and edifying guests, so we hope that you continue listening as often as you can.

Also, folks, I hope as many of you listening join me on Friday and Saturday, August 28th and 29th for the

Association of Biblical Counselors Conference, which is being held at the

High Point Baptist Church of Larksville, Pennsylvania, a church revitalization effort in northeastern

Pennsylvania through the Grace Advance Ministry of John MacArthur and Grace to You Ministries.

And this is going to be a conference I'm sure will equip you to be even a better servant of your own congregation where you are a member and also a better ambassador for Christ to all you meet and know.

This is going to be a very important conference at High Point Baptist Church, and the theme is the basics of biblical counseling.

The speaker is Dale Johnson, who is the president of the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors, also known as ACBC.

And Dale will be addressing such subjects as the need for biblical counseling, the definition and goal of biblical counseling, progressive sanctification, qualifications of a biblical counselor, secular and integration theories, and what makes biblical counseling biblical.

There will also be a Q &A session. If you have any further questions that you need answered, go to biblicalcounseling .com

forward slash Scranton dash PA dash training. That's biblicalcounseling .com

forward slash Scranton, S -C -R -A -N -T -O -N, and that is the location of the conference.

Larksville, Pennsylvania is a suburb of Scranton. biblicalcounseling .com forward slash

Scranton, S -C -R -A -N -T -O -N dash PA dash training. You can also go to the High Point Baptist Church for more details on the location.

highpointbaptist .church, highpointbaptist .church. And folks, if you love this show and you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves, you look forward to sharing the free downloadable

MP3s with family, friends, and loved ones. You love receiving free

Bibles and books that are given to our listeners when they send in questions, especially if we're interviewing authors.

You love the fact that very often the guests and topics we cover are never heard anywhere else. Well, please, if you don't want us to disappear, go to ironsharpensionradio .com,

click support, then click, click to donate now. You can donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that fashion, and that's ironsharpensionradio .com,

click support, then click, click to donate now. You can also mail in a check via snail mail the old -fashioned way to the address that appears on the screen when you click support at ironsharpensionradio .com

if you prefer snail mail. I want to remind you, please never siphon money away from your regular giving that you're accustomed to to your local church where you're a member in order to give to Ironsharpension Radio.

Also, never put your family in financial jeopardy if you're having a hard time making ends meet. Those two things are commands of scripture, providing for your church and providing for your family.

Providing for this radio show is obviously not a command of scripture, but if you are blessed financially above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands, perhaps you have a lot of extra money lying around because you haven't lost your job during the

COVID pandemic hysteria. You have been saving money because you haven't been going to concerts, you haven't been going to the movies, you haven't been going to the theater to see theatrical performances and plays, you have not been going to Bible conferences, you have not been going out fine dining, you have not been going to see your favorite sports team perform at the arenas and coliseums where you have been frequenting, supporting your local team or your favorite team.

Well, these are all reasons why you may have extra money, and that money I am more than happy to take some or all of it if you would love to see

Iron Trip and Zion remain on the air. We are in very urgent need of your donations. We lost two of our largest, in fact, our two largest financial supporters during the

COVID pandemic hysteria because their businesses were so severely affected by the quarantining.

So, we are asking you, please, if you want us to remain on the air, please help us make up for that serious loss of income.

I thank all of you who are already doing that, some of you who are faithfully continuing to give month after month after month, and some of you who are giving the first time.

Also, I want to repeat again a wonderful woman in Austin, Texas, who I had never heard from before, who broke all donation records when it comes to private, personal individuals, as opposed to businesses and ministries.

She broke all donation records with a gift that she sent in recently. I want to thank her from the bottom of my heart, and again,

I hope I meet you someday to thank you in person. But please, folks, if you have not already given or haven't given in a while, or you want to increase your giving, we surely could use it.

Go to www .IronTrumpinsIronRadio .com, click support, then click click to donate now. If you want to advertise with us, as long as whatever it is you're promoting is compatible with what we believe, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

and put advertising in the subject line. Also, if you are in need of a local Bible -believing church, no matter where in the world you live,

I have helped many people find churches in all parts of the planet earth where they have visited and joined, or recommended to loved ones, or visited when they're on vacation.

If you are in any of those categories or other categories that would involve you needing a local church, please send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Phil Johnson with a question on what we are discussing today, when to draw the line in the sand when earthly powers make demands on the church.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com. We have a question that gives me a good time to remind our listeners of something very important.

If you request to be anonymous, please, please, please put anonymous in the subject line or at least the very first word of your question, because it's a good thing that I happen to have time to read the entire question

I'm about to read in advance. I usually don't have time to do that, and I read these questions for the very first time live on the air.

But our listener who wants to remain anonymous put the very last word of his question anonymous.

That's not a good idea. I'm glad I caught that in time. But our anonymous listener asks you,

Phil, is John MacArthur and the church willing to take the reproach, shame, and embarrassment if the disease is spread in their congregation because of their congregating?

Is John's decision to open his services based on his assessment of the disease statistics?

Would he have conceded to the government restriction if the statistics were more life -threatening and not use the language about listening to Jesus and not

Caesar? Yeah, I mean all of those things figure in, obviously. If there was a plague that was literally taking the lives of people all around us, obviously what we're saying, though, is it's really the elders' decision to make, not the governor's.

We are charged with the responsibility to shepherd our people and oversee the worship of the church, and it's really not the governor's call to tell us whether we can sing or when we can meet, how many people can be there, all those sorts of things.

So that's our argument. The government is overstepping its authority if they try to regulate the worship of the church.

We always take measures to make sure that if there's any possibility people could get sick or whatever, we minimize that.

And in fact, if you came to Grace Church last Sunday, you'd see there was hand cleanser and masks all over the place, free masks that people, if they came without a mask, could take and use if they chose.

On the other hand, we don't see it as our duty to enforce rules that the government itself isn't consistently enforcing.

If it's okay for mobs of people to do public demonstrations and even riots, and the government doesn't enforce any of these regulations against them, then they don't have a ground on which to try to enforce those things against religious gatherings or really anybody else.

So, yeah, that's part of how this figures in. Obviously, if people began to get sick on a widespread basis or some serious illness was spreading through our flock, we would take measures to try to end the risk to people.

But the fact is, with the COVID -19 thing, the medium age of people who have died from the virus is 82.

So what we've done is recommend people who are in those high -risk categories, elderly people, people with comorbidities and so on, to stay away, stay home, watch the livestream.

But for someone who's younger, someone in his 20s or 30s, the risk of death from this virus is virtually non -existent.

Yeah, there are people in those age groups who die, but as many people die of heart failure at that age, it's not a sickness that typically targets younger people.

The people who've had fatal cases have generally been older people who already have some other disability as well.

And so we've taken measures to keep people like that from unnecessarily exposing themselves to this sickness.

But for the rest of us, people who are not high -risk categories, it just seems folly to try to enforce a total quarantine on people who are perfectly healthy, people who are not seriously at risk.

So that's our decision, and we feel it is the elders' prerogative to make those decisions for the

Church, not the governors. Well, thank you, Anonymous. And we have

B .B. in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who asks, Do you think a lot of the capitulation of many pastors in the

United States, if not around the world, to cave in to the governing authorities when they are insisting that they close their doors for public corporate worship, that the stem of this, the root of this, is really because of the fact that the

Church at large has adopted a very low view and a very low -level importance for worship itself?

They actually think that watching and listening to a live -streamed sermon suffices as worshiping

God in spirit and truth, and even attendance and membership of the Church has been diminished in importance to even be a non -important or essential requirement of true believers in Christ.

People seem to think that they are fine and dandy and in good standing with God if they stay home every

Lord's Day or just bounce around from church to church, visiting at their leisure without submitting to the elders in any of them.

Yeah, I mean, I'm hesitant to judge any specific person's motives, but I think it's beyond debate that that is a widespread problem that many of us have warned about long before the

COVID crisis hit, that contemporary evangelicals don't have a solid ecclesiology, a good appreciation for the importance of the

Church and Church membership and faithfulness to your own local church.

We take such a casual attitude towards these things so that, you know, sporting events and whatever in practice take priority in many people's minds over worship, and that's been a longstanding problem within the evangelical movement for a long time.

And it's related to a lot of things, again, that you and I, Chris, have discussed before the Seeker Sensitive Movement, which gave the idea that worship services are for you, not for God, so it should be tailored to your tastes in music and your interests, and forget, you know, preach the

Word in season and out of season. Let's find out what people are interested in, and let's talk about that.

Give them messages that, you know, strike their felt needs or whatever. So people have the idea, naturally, that Church is for them, it's for their sake, and therefore if there's any kind of inconvenience or difficulty with coming to the weekly service,

I can either skip it or stay home and watch it on the internet, and that should suffice.

And it doesn't really suffice. And what it's done is rob people of fellowship.

There is an upside, I think, even, in that I've noticed with a lot of people in our fellowship that when they began to come back, there was a lot of vocal expression of the sense that I need this,

I've missed this, I didn't appreciate how important face -to -face fellowship in the

Church is, how much I'm dependent on other members of the body. And Scripture's full of this truth that we need each other, that you are just one member in the body, and you know, you may be a toe, but that doesn't mean you don't need the eye.

All the members of the body need each other. That's what it means to be a body. And so I think people are appreciating that, having been starved for fellowship.

So there's an upside to it, although it's not something

I would want to encourage for churches to close down for extended periods of time just to let their people get a taste of what it's like not to have the fellowship.

We should appreciate the fellowship. We should consciously and rationally think about what it means in our

Christian lives and pursue it. And I think a failure to do that over several generations now has contributed to a lack of understanding among evangelicals about the importance of the

Church. We have, let's see, where was that? I was just looking at it.

Oh, we have Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, who asks, and he begins with a statement,

I am an heir of the Reformation through and through, having abandoned the false and wicked false doctrines of the

Church of Rome. However, do you think that many evangelicals have run too far in the opposite direction to the point where they no longer think that the ordinances of the

Church, also known as sacraments to some, are absolutely unimportant since we are saved by grace through faith alone, and therefore they don't see a big deal of their churches being shut down or quarantined, even if they do not have the ability to participate in the ordinances, and therefore they are fine and dandy with the governors and local authorities keeping their doors closed?

Yep, I think that's a factor as well. I think that's a good observation that the only way you can tolerate months of separation from the

Church is if you don't have any kind of appreciation for what it means to come to the

Lord's table with your fellow believers, to remember the Lord's death together with the body.

If you don't miss that, if you haven't somehow felt deprived by the quarantine of those elements of the fellowship, then, yeah,

I would say your appreciation of the importance of the sacraments is too low. It's a good observation.

And I would also ask you in relation to that, do you think that the warning in Scripture that there were those who fell asleep in death because of their improper observation of the

Lord's table, do you think that warning has application for today? Because the only reason

I'm saying this is that there seems to be something very supernaturally powerful and significant about these things that we sometimes de -emphasize as merely and only being symbols and memorials and ceremonies.

I mean, obviously, in the early Church, if somebody were to die because of improperly approaching and partaking in the

Lord's Supper, it's something to at least be ringing in our ears and in the back of our minds when we begin to take lightly the importance of the ordinance.

Yeah, well, let me answer those questions sort of in order. Yes, I think that warning has application today.

When Paul says, you know, for this cause, many of you are weak and sickly and some even die, he's talking about people who either abused the

Lord's table. In fact, in Corinth, it sounds awful. They were coming to the Lord's table drunk and using it as a,

I mean, it became almost a food fight. And so he rebukes them for their abuse of the

Lord's table and also for a casual attitude towards it. And Paul says, it's a time to examine yourself.

And I think people who don't take that seriously probably do subject themselves to sickness and even death.

What you have to understand is Paul's an apostle, and so he's speaking under inspiration when he says that.

I would be hesitant, not even just hesitant, I would not look at an individual situation where somebody got sick or died and conclude automatically that, well, that's a punishment for not, you know, not approaching the

Lord's table in the right way. We don't know that. I don't think we're supposed to try to interpret every turn of divine providence and invest it with a meaning.

But the warning nevertheless applies. It reminds us to take the

Lord's table seriously and examine ourselves when we come. And there may be consequences, supernatural consequences.

I mean, the Lord's intervention with sickness or death, if you take it casually, those who sow to the flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption,

Scripture says. And I think what that means is that all sin has consequences and can have consequences even in the physical realm.

If you sin, you are compromising your own physical well -being sometimes.

And for those of you wondering where that exact text is that warns about those who have been weak, sick, and quote, quote, fallen asleep or died, it's 1

Corinthians chapter 11 and the specific verse is 30. I want you, before we go to our final break, to reason with people who really think that you and Dr.

MacArthur and your elders and all that follows suit with you in agreement with you are in sin.

There are many things in the body of Christ that are dividing us, even, as I said earlier, not necessarily a conservative and liberal

Christendom, because most of that which identifies as liberal

Christendom we wouldn't even think is true Christianity. But even brothers in Christ who have the same doctrinal statement, the same confession of faith, the same constitutions, they have been divided over this issue and there are some who are saying we are in sin.

So how do you respond to that very serious chart? Yeah, and let me be fair with our critics as well.

The majority of people who have been harshly critical of what we're doing have not criticized us for meeting.

They've criticized us because they've seen pictures of the congregation and there are people who aren't wearing masks and we're not practicing social distancing, which is pretty hard to do in a congregation of 5 ,000 people with a church campus that's limited in size.

So we're not necessarily keeping the six -foot limit and things like that.

And so the normal criticism is, well, you're failing to fulfill the second great commandment, which says love your neighbor as yourself, because you're taking a risk that you might expose your neighbors to infection.

But there's more to the second commandment than you. You haven't fulfilled your responsibility to the second great commandment.

I mean the second great commandment, not the second of the ten commandments. The second great commandment, love your neighbor as yourself, the duties that that puts on us are by no means all fulfilled just because you wear a mask.

And in fact, the stress on loving your neighbor in Scripture is quite the opposite direction.

It involves doing things for him, showing love to him in a personal way, fulfilling his needs and so on.

And when it comes down to the church, showing love to the brethren, I've said this online, the priority in Scripture is on koinonia, fellowship and association.

Koinonia is the Greek word, and it's a big word that includes a whole lot.

It's usually translated fellowship, but it contains all the ideas of brotherhood and communion and intimacy, community.

It's not about masks and distance barriers. It's about the opposite.

Greet one another with a holy kiss and all those verses. So the idea in Scripture on fellowship has to do with a family -style sort of intimacy, not keeping my distance from people, but sharing with them in everything, sharing in our possessions if necessary, sharing in our support and love for them, affection.

People who want to practice social distancing can do that on our campus.

We have space where you can go, and especially if you feel you might be at risk, wear a mask.

Or don't come, as I said earlier. But you can practice social distancing and all of that.

We don't force anyone to come without a mask, but we're not, as I said also earlier, we're not tasked with enforcing rules that the government itself enforces only inconsistently.

So we see the question of masks and social distancing as one of those debatable matters that Paul deals with in Romans 14, where he says, look, let everyone be fully convinced in his own mind, which means charity requires you not to heap criticism and condemnation on the person who might see this question differently from you.

Let everyone be fully convinced in their own mind and show love to them, whether they feel they need to wear a mask or they don't.

I'm just as irritated by the people who make fun of people for wearing masks as I am by the people who scold you if you don't have one.

But if you're watching online and seeing some of the videos that have been posted, it's the people who claim that wearing a mask is the only way to express love for your neighbor.

They tend to be the harshest ones in their condemnation of people who maybe don't see it the same as them.

And they don't even consistently wear the masks like Jerry Nadler and Dr. Fauci and others in their own private lives.

They'll take it off to scold you and get in your face, which just seems totally irrational to me.

Also, if you watch people who wear masks, the idea is to stop minuscule droplets from being spread.

I get that. I wear a mask when I go into a store or any place around here. It's basically required.

But putting on a mask to sing praise to the Lord just sort of goes against my grain.

So when I'm in church, I prefer not to wear the mask. But I would only do that in the presence of other people who voluntarily are not wearing masks themselves.

So I wouldn't unwillingly put anyone else at risk. But the thing I've noticed is, though, the idea is to stop the spread of those droplets.

You watch anybody who's wearing a mask who's about to sneeze, you'll take the mask off in order to sneeze, which, you know, counteracts the purpose.

Because nobody wants to sneeze in a mask that's right up against their face. Plus, masks encourage people to do more touching of their face and all that.

People aren't really wearing the masks in a hygienic way. Yeah, in fact, that was the main criticism to begin with, why we were being warned by Dr.

Fauci and others. Don't wear a mask. Yeah, and again, I'm not trying to convince anybody who sees it else.

Otherwise, I know there are lots of people who believe the scientific data goes the opposite direction, and you really ought to wear a mask.

I won't try to change your mind. You're welcome to your opinion. But my point is to say it is clearly a debatable issue.

It's not a question on which we have a clear biblical answer. And therefore, we've decided, the elders of our church, to treat it as a

Romans 14 matter. And we discourage people from getting in arguments about it or scolding others who don't see things the same as them.

And so most of the criticism about that, in fact, virtually all the criticism about that, has come from outside our fellowship.

The people in the fellowship, the people who are part of our church, they understand it. All of them can live with it.

Those who want to wear masks can do so and stay away from those of us who aren't wearing them, and vice versa.

So even that puts an imposition, I think, on our fellowship, because then you have to distance from the person who, you know, isn't wearing them or wants to wear a mask.

But, you know, we're doing the best we can with that, and Romans 14 doesn't attempt to resolve every difference of opinion between Christians.

So I think real charity, genuine love for one another, requires us to be as kind in our thoughts towards one another.

It's not just about wearing masks and keeping your distance. We're going to our final break right now, and if you would like to submit a question of your own, do so immediately, because we're rapidly running out of time.

This is a much shorter break than the last two. Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

We'll be right back with Phil Johnson. Chris Arnsen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here.

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This is Chris Arntzen. This is the final segment of our interview with Bill Johnson, Executive Director of Great To You, the media ministry of Dr.

John MacArthur. If you have a question, send it in immediately to ChrisArntzen at gmail .com.

ChrisArntzen at gmail .com. Before we take any additional listener questions, Phil, I'd like you to have at least three minutes to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today about this subject.

About this subject, I would say it's the importance of the church, the body of Christ.

It's the body for which he gave his life to redeem from sin.

And without his sacrifice, all of us would be doomed forever. Paul describes us in Ephesians 2 as dead in trespasses and sins.

Until God intervened through the work of Christ to free us, liberate us from the bondage of sin, and bring us into union with Christ.

And we celebrate that every Sunday when we gather. First day of the week to celebrate the

Lord's resurrection from the dead. To commune with one another. And literally to celebrate the communion table where we remember the

Lord's death and resurrection. And that is the central moment of the week for every genuine believer, whether we realize it or not, whether we appreciate it or not.

There is nothing that happens in the week that takes legitimate priority over that.

So to see it canceled because of fears about a virus, a viral infection, is something that we should not sit by idly and let happen easily.

It's true that if there was an imminent threat of death or a serious plague going around, we might have to forego meeting for worship for a week or two or however long it takes.

But in this case, the passage of time has made it clear that this virus doesn't pose the serious threat that originally was feared.

And it's time for Christians to be moving back into their fellowship with one another and worshiping the

Lord on the first day of the week. It's a biblical command not to forsake the assembly of yourselves together.

And that's a command that ultimately the church is going to have to own and obey.

Well, we do have time for one more question. We have Bobby in Hartsdale, New York, who says,

Is it not demonstrating a lack of love by preventing those lost neighbors that are so frequently brought up as seeing the church in an ill light because we open for worship services?

Is it not the biggest lack of love to not have our open arms and our public worship available to them when they may be in more need of visiting the gathered church, either for experiencing the public worship or for private counsel than anyone else?

Yes, well, that's exactly the point. And it's not a hypothetical. It is true that people have, their lives have been destroyed.

People have been suffering in ways unimaginable because of the extended quarantine.

I heard today that just an extraordinary number, something like 15 ,000 restaurants, have gone out of business permanently.

That's a lot of lives destroyed, a lot of jobs lost, a lot of dreams evaporated.

And people are hurting. And the only answers to the fears that people live with is the message the church proclaims, the gospel.

And Scripture even says that Christ came and sacrificed his life to redeem people who all their lives have suffered under the fear of death.

And I don't know that the fear of death has ever been as prominent, at least in American society, in my lifetime, it's never been as prominent as it has been in 2020, and mainly because of the virus and all the news and the way the news has spun about it.

People are living in fear, and only the church has the right answer to that problem.

So to silence the church and cause Christians to basically bottle up their fellowship and simply stay alone at home and watch sermons online, it's an abandonment of the responsibility of what we're called to as the church.

And it's time to move in a different direction, time to return to our public worship, our corporate gatherings, so that the message can get out the way it's intended to.

Amen. And I want to remind our listeners that if you want more information about Grace To You, the ministry where our guest serves as executive director, the ministry of John MacArthur, gty .org,

gty .org. Thank you so much, Phil, for always doing such an extraordinary job as our guest.

In fact, if you could hold on the line, I want to schedule you for our next interview, if that's possible.

I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write. I want you all to remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater