SRR 121 Deranged by Doug Wilson, Messianic Judaism & John Piper & the Decline of Sola Fide at Final Judgment (7)

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I do a podcast. I'm not interested in your podcast. The anathema of God was for those who denied justification by faith alone.
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When that is at stake, we need to be on the battlefield, exposing the air and combating the air.
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We are unabashedly, unashamedly Clarkian. And so the next few statements that I'm going to make,
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I'm probably going to step on all of the Vantillian toes at the same time. And this is what we do at Simple Riff around the radio, you know.
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We are polemical and polarizing Jesus style. I would first say that to characterize what we do as fashion is itself fashion.
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It's not hate. It's history. It's not fashion. It's the Bible. Jesus said, woe to you when men speak well of you, for their fathers used to treat the false prophets in the same way.
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As opposed to blessed are you when you have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness. It is on.
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We're taking the gloves off. It's time to battle. All right, ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the podcast.
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This is Simple Riff around the radio where the Bible alone and the Bible in its entirety is applied to all of life.
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My name is Tim Shaughnessy and I am one of the co -hosts here. Today I'm joined by Carlos Montijo.
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And unfortunately, Hiram Diaz was not able to join us tonight. So we want to get an episode out.
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So we're going to go ahead and record Carlos and I. And we are going to make a commitment to stick to Piper tonight.
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Well, all right. So I say that loosely because we need to address a couple of other things first.
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But we are definitely going to get to John Piper. We want to continue the series that we were doing with respect to Carlos's article.
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And if you want to get ahead and read ahead, we were discussing Carlos's article when
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Protestants err on the side of Rome. John Piper, final salvation and the decline and fall of Sola Fide at the last day.
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Part two. Today we're going to be covering fatal flaw number six. I also want to recommend
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Carlos's interview on the Trinity Foundation radio with our good friend
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Steve Matthews, where he basically gave an overview of the entire article.
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And this article does cover, it draws out six fatal flaws from John Piper's doctrinal final salvation.
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If you are getting into the controversy surrounding John Piper, this article is a must read.
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And it took some time because what Carlos did is he just simply accepted for the sake of argument that, okay, let's say
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Piper's right. What does this lead to? Because the doctrine of justification is so central to Christianity.
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Well, what do you know? It just leads to one fatal flaw after another. So today we're going to be discussing fatal flaw number six, which is titled deadening the resurrection.
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And I think this is one of Carlos's favorite, favorite sections.
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But before we get to that, Carlos, you recently just, we just put up an episode that you did with Hiram Diaz talking about the
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Doug Wilson issue. We sort of got sidetracked on that, the
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Doug Wilson issue. And when we did an episode where we talked about the interview with Doug Wilson and James White.
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So that was a very good episode. I want to give a big thanks to Hiram Diaz for that.
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But do you, first of all, let me just give you an opportunity to say hello, jump in here. And do you have any lingering thoughts on that episode?
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Yeah, it's good to, well, first of all, it's good to be back on the show with you, Tim. And I know we keep having these hiatuses, but we try to, every time we record, we do try to make the most out of it and to produce good, solid content that will actually benefit our listeners.
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And we actually haven't been on a break so much because we do have a backlog of episodes that we need to publish.
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That I've just been, it's been hard for me to find the time to actually do it. But we've got a few studies to upload and that episode that you just mentioned with Hiram and I talking about Doug Wilson.
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So, and regarding that episode, you know, we've really,
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I'm glad we finally started to address Doug Wilson because he is,
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I don't know why, I can't really tell why people like him so much, but he's good enough to the point where he can even deceive
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James White himself. And, you know, with, I think this is just a weakness for Dr.
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White. It seems to be one of his weaknesses where he just, he's just having, for whatever reason, he's really not seeing this at all.
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And I think we're going to show that even more today with his recent podcast talking about this.
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But yeah, that was about it. Yeah. And we're going to play a clip of that podcast.
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You pointed it out, you listened to the whole episode. But, you know, it's really remarkable.
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I'm glad that you guys took the time to go over and play that clip. And I remember after the clip,
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I think it was like five minutes long of Doug Wilson talking about whether or not GK Chesterton, I think, no,
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Tolkien and was, yeah, I think Tolkien and Chesterton. And Lewis.
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Or Lewis. I know one of them was J .R .R. Tolkien. But talking about whether or not they could be saved.
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I mean, you listen to the clip. And so then afterwards,
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I mean, you're just completely astonished at what Wilson has said. And anybody with a basic understanding of Christianity would have to say this man is totally unqualified to be a teacher in Christ's church.
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And what's what's what's amazing is it. And you guys didn't point this out.
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But what's amazing is, is while he's setting up the question and and giving his argument at the very towards the beginning of his response, he says,
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I'm as Protestant as you get. And then you listen to what he says. And he equates works with right theology with respect to the gospel.
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And and if it were left up to him with what he just said, he would completely undo the
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Protestant Reformation. And yet he he he boasts that he is he is as Protestant as you get.
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That was just the that was. I can't think of anything else to say about that, except for that was exceedingly wicked.
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For him to completely dismantle the the doctrine of justification by faith alone by essentially saying, well, it's not necessary to be saved because ultimately we're saved by grace alone.
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And as I was listening to your episode, because I wasn't able to to jump on, I kept saying that's implicit faith, that's implicit faith.
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And I'm so glad that Hiram pointed that out, that that's really a form of implicit faith, which is what
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Rome teaches. And then you pointed out later in the episode that he he's essentially agreeing with with with Roman Catholicism, because ultimately you don't need to to believe in justification by faith alone.
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And, you know, he he sort of said, you know, oh, well, if you ask a five year old, you know, is it imputed or is it is it imparted or infused?
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Yeah. And it's like those are technical terms. What a sham. What a total sham.
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And I wanted to read what what Paul says in Galatians chapter five, because this is this is really,
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I think, the heart of the matter. Paul says, look, I, Paul, say to you that if anyone accepts circumcision,
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Christ is of no advantage to him. I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.
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You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law, you have fallen away from grace.
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So people who are in the Roman Catholic system and believe that they're somehow going to be justified by their good works, this applies to them.
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And it is the most irrational, illogical, just it's it's infuriating.
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It's it's it's really infuriating when you have
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James White and we're going to play the clip where he just goes off on other people who are trying to call out
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Doug Wilson. And what's so bad is is that James White postures himself as as the rational one, as the intellectual.
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And yet when it comes to Wilson, he is just so completely superficial. I was reading the book by John Robbins and Sean Garrity.
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And at the beginning, they say Wilson informs us that he is post -millennial,
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Calvinistic, Presbyterian, Ventilian, Theonomic and Reformed.
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And, you know, it's like, OK, I get it. You know, Jeff Durbin is post -millennial. He's Calvinistic.
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He's Ventilian. He's the he embraces theonomy. You know, I think
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Jeff is Reformed Baptist. He's not Presbyterian, but I know James White is is Reformed Baptist. But it's like,
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OK, and you guys are confronting the culture and you see Doug Wilson as an ally.
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And and yet when I mean, when he fumbles the gospel, when he when he brings utter and total confusion into this concerning the gospel, it's like it's it's a non -issue.
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Or at least that's how it seems. That's how it seems. It's a non -issue. And it's just infuriating.
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So you brought up, I guess, in James White's latest episode, you brought up this clip.
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And I'm just going to go ahead and play the part that you wanted to comment on. I'll give you an opportunity to comment on that.
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And then then we have to do some other. We have to deal with something else before we jump into Piper.
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But let me go and play this clip. Right. Real quickly here, continuing saga, whitewashing everyone with the same brush from certain folks.
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Continues on. Now there is a Facebook. So now not not only we all know that, you know, the first person to get the.
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Doug Wilson derangement syndrome paint was my daughter, Summer. And then, of course,
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Jeff and Luke at Apologia. But now I'm looking at a tweet and now we've got
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Tom Askew, who I've always suspected was was federal vision.
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I mean, it's just as absurd to accuse me of it again. And now
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G3, Josh Weiss. So anybody. Why isn't
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Phil Johnson on this list? He took the picture of me and Doug at G3. So why. But he's not in the picture.
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Maybe that's why he did it that way. I don't know. But he took the picture. So it's the associationalism.
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This is the stuff we've talked about before. This is the fundamentalist mindset where anybody, you know, hey, you went to the same hotel as that man did.
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Therefore, there you go. You all believe the same things. It's the same type of thinking that certain people and when reformed people bite onto this type of stuff.
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Well, it gets it gets super, super ugly. Very, very, very quickly.
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But I wanted to read you. Now, if you haven't seen it, it's interesting. There is an article.
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The truth about federal vision on Facebook. The source is given R. Scott Clark, Brandon Adams, and various and monarchism.
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Well, most of it came from R. Scott Clark. That's that's put that way. And we know that R. Scott Clark, I think
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I'm being very, very fair to say that R. Scott Clark is grossly imbalanced when it comes Doug Wills. He cannot he cannot even try to be fair.
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Just can't even try. And so anybody who just goes, yes, whatever you say, Dr. Clark won't even try to be fair, won't even try to listen.
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I mean, there's there's a there is a clear derangement syndrome out there. Here's an example of it.
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So 2019, December, James White about to make it begins participating with federal visionist
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Doug Wilson. Yes, love how the spin is. This is I mean, these folks watch MSNBC and go,
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I see how that works. Let's do it ourselves. Doug Wilson, a series of videos called The Sweater Vest Dialogues.
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In the first video in the series, White asked Doug Wilson a series of questions on Sola Fide, i .e.
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justification by faith alone through grace alone in Christ alone. And ready. And Wilson responds these questions by using classic federal vision language.
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I don't even know what to say.
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I don't even know that you you go through the specific statements point by point by point by point by point.
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And these people cannot hear it. They they live in a world where it just becomes.
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And and it's like, I have my conclusion. Don't confuse me with the facts.
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That's that's that's where we are now. That's where we are. So there you go. So I wonder who will be next to be added to the great grand and growing conspiracy list.
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I don't know, but it's it is truly sad to observe, but it's out there, folks.
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It is out there. All right. So, Carlos, that was the clip that you heard that you wanted to comment on.
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And man, that is that is a total mess. Disappointing.
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Yeah, it's it's extremely disappointing. And, you know, I just want to go back to what
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James White said about Rosario Butterfield and how he was just pointing out or he was he was trying to when he was reviewing
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Diane Gadskins article. And I think that's how you say her name. He was saying that we live in an age where everybody's superficial and shallow.
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And he went through that article and he responded to it. But then when it comes to somebody that he, you know,
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I don't know. When it comes to somebody like Doug Wilson that I guess he likes, that he knows he he just apparently he cannot seem to be objective.
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He cannot see. And he is extremely shallow. And so there were a lot of things wrong with that interview that he should have pressed him on, that he should have called him out on.
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And it's like we went through point by point by point. It's like, OK, maybe you weren't paying attention because he totally botched the covenant of works, totally botched it in the interview or in the the interview that we played last week.
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I mean, he just totally botched justification by faith alone because he equated faith with works and then concludes that Roman Catholics can be saved because you're not saved by works.
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What a stupid thing to say for for somebody of his stature in in the church.
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What a stupid thing to say. You have thousands of people listening to you.
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It just it infuriates me. So, Carlos, what what are your thoughts on what you just heard?
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I'm disappointed. I never imagined that I would be playing a clip of James White to critique it, to criticize it and to oppose it because for the longest time
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I've been very fond of James White. He's been a great blessing to me personally.
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But this continues to show how much of a weakness situations like these are for him because we already saw our part.
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Hold on. Hold on. Let's set that up for our listeners a little bit, because James White got you out of fundamentalism, got you out of the
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King James only as groups. So and I appreciate what you're saying, because you're trying to point out that we're not we're not biased.
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We're not we're not James White hating right now. This is this is a valid critique.
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You know, you do have a lot to be grateful for because you were a King James only us. And James White is the one who got you out of that.
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Yeah, I mean, he's also part of the reason he's the main reason I became a Calvinist and transitioned to a reformed direction.
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I'm not yeah, like I'm not I'm not anti James White at all. And I don't really care for Doug Wilson either.
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I have no real attachment to him. I just the things that I've seen the interview that we we already analyzed the interview and we expose just how bad how false
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Doug Wilson's teaching really is. You can go back and listen to Episode 117, Seperate Firmanda.
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And so what he says here, and I'm not as I listen to it again,
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I'm not sure who he was referring to. It sounds like he was referring to somebody else. I was quoting R. Scott Clark that wrote an article on Facebook or something like that.
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I haven't seen the post myself, so I don't know what he's referring to. But I can you can kind of see like, oh, he in his interview with White, Wilson uses classic federal vision language.
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And what what White is assuming he's like, OK, even after we go point by point asking him, do you affirm or deny this?
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And Wilson denies the accusations that Brandon made against him and R.
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Scott Clark as well. And so it's like, well, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Dr. James White is an expert in church history, and it's like he should know.
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And I'm sure he does know that the Aryans during the Aryan controversy, the people who rejected that Christ was
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God. They affirmed the orthodox formulations, but when they would connive with each other and conspire, they would redefine them with their own perverse definitions.
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And so a heretic has no problem affirming orthodoxy. He has no problem doing that.
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You see Wilson doing that. You see Piper doing that as well. He says, oh, my answer is a mainstream reform tradition.
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And so that's not the issue. And he should know better. He should know that the issue is not do you affirm or do you deny?
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The issue is, what do you say that it is? And so Wilson actually explained what he meant in the interview with White.
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And that's what we analyzed. We analyzed his response. And his response was a confused, false gospel of federal vision, monocovenantal mess.
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And it was obvious, because I don't know what's going on.
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It went straight past him. He did not see it at all. He just moved on to the next point and didn't even bother to ask him about the historical facts about what he said about Robbins and about how federal vision controversy began in the first place.
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About what do you mean that God was gracious to Adam and would have been gracious even if he had obeyed perfectly the covenant?
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What do you mean by that? That's absurd. That's like turning the covenant of works into something that's not the covenant of works anymore.
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And mixing it with the covenant of grace and mixing law and gospel and perverting it all together.
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And Wilson has a number of problems. I mean this is just sort of the tip of the iceberg.
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In the other episode that you mentioned that Hiram and I talked about, we were supposed to talk about Piper, but we couldn't get off of the
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Wilson stuff because he says so many stupid and false things. They're absurd.
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And they're patently false. And it's sad that White doesn't, it's blown right past him.
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He's not seeing any of it because in his show he denied those accusations.
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And that's it. That settles it for White. What this demonstrates is that this really is an example of very shallow superficial thinking, which is what
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James White complains about so much.
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That was just going to say, that really bothered me about him because he's accusing all these people,
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R. Scott Clarke, presumably us as well, because we're opposing Wilson and White on this point.
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As if we have this Trump -Wilson derangement syndrome and it's like, sadly, he needs to take a serious look in the mirror because the stuff we're saying, we're critiquing exactly what he said.
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We're taking what he said. We're holding it up against what Reformed theology teaches, what the Bible teaches and showing how he's completely at odds with it.
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So the one that's being shallow and totally deranged, unfortunately, with respect to this issue is
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White himself. And it's like, you got to open your eyes. It's a valuable lesson,
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I think, because somebody as qualified as Dr. White, who knows the
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Greek, who knows the Hebrew, who knows church history backwards and forwards, somebody who is church history literate should be immune to this stuff, should be immune to this stuff because it's so common.
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It's one of the most basic lessons of church history. And sadly, it's hitting him right in the face, right between the eyes.
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Yeah, it's really wrong to portray all of this as Wilson derangement because obviously, like you said, we would fall into that category.
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But, you know, we're a bunch of nobody, so he's not going to listen to what we have to say.
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So that brings us up to the last thing that we need to talk about before we get to your article.
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And we are going to get to your article. This might be a little bit longer of an episode, but whatever.
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So we do think that one of the reasons that people just seem to fall apart whenever you call somebody out or whenever you disagree with somebody publicly is simply because this is an area of life in the church that is so neglected, that is so neglected.
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And I think that it has so much to do with the fact that the church is largely effeminate.
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It's like we need to put on love and we categorize people instantly as victims.
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You know, they're a victim. And so if you disagree with them, you're an oppressor. And our thinking is in these areas is just so unbiblical.
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And what we see a lot of times is that you'll have guys like John MacArthur who can call out
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Joel Osteen. But, you know, is he going to call out John Piper? No, he's not.
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And you see these relationships and these alliances form. And I think that this really plays directly into why
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James White is not calling out Doug Wilson, because they're fighting on the same front with respect to the social justice issues.
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And so the question comes up, you know, how would we deal with this if somebody in our camp or somebody that that we were friends with went in a wrong direction?
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Well, you have to you have to be responsible in how you do this.
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So if somebody is going to disagree on, you know, we partner with Presbyterians, we're
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Reformed Baptists. And when you know, we don't have an issue with our differences.
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And we're not going to we're not going to call somebody out. We'll disagree, but we're not going to call somebody out over something like that.
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You know, Timothy Kaufman is doing a series on eschatology. And we know that there's people that disagree with, you know, disagree over eschatology or something like that.
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So there's room for disagreement. But then there comes a time when you just it's like, okay, this this is crossed over into something else.
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And we have to call somebody out. And we don't like to do it. It's not fun.
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But what what happens is that the person is starting to say stuff that is dangerous.
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And so this is this is an example. This is an example of what James White should do with respect to Doug Wilson.
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And this this really demonstrates that yes, we we want to care for people, we want to be respectful, we want to love people, but at the same time, we can't just compromise truth.
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So it really, it really saddens me to have to do this. But we are going to have to warn people away from Jason Peterson.
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Jason Peterson is he's a prolific writer, blogger, I think he had a podcast.
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But he was he's a Clarkian. And a number of years ago, we got into a little scuffle with him over Clark's view of knowledge, whether it was justified true belief or just belief.
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Or I can't remember Jason's take on that. But it was a secondary issue.
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And we we scuffed with him. And after that, Jason had reached out to us, particularly me, we we, you know, he apologized for his part in that and we reconciled and I would have considered him to be a friend,
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I still consider him to be a friend. And what happened after that is I invited him on to the podcast because he was a
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Clarkian. From what I remember, he was a Presbyterian. He said that the Westminster Confession of Faith was the the best summation of the
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Christian faith at the time. And he had self published a book that we had recommended.
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I actually had a copy of the book. And we invited him on I interviewed him, you know, he seemed like a really great guy.
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Theologically, we had a lot in common. He was a Clarkian. And I was really hoping that we could just mend bridges and move past our prior disagreement.
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And I thought, okay, this is, you know, he there's a lot of potential here.
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And this is great. So we, we recommended his stuff. And now we're going to have to retract that and actually warn people away from him.
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The reason that this has come up is because there have been some developments in Jason Peterson's theology.
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He apparently embraces word of faith. He is claims to be a Messianic Jew.
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So he's not reformed anymore. He's not Presbyterian. I'm not sure exactly why this stuff is taking place.
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But earlier this week, he, he had published an article on Kobe Bryant, and whether or not
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Kobe Bryant was saved. Kobe Bryant was a
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Roman Catholic, and he apparently had attended mass the morning that he was that he was killed.
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Now, first things first, we absolutely want our listeners to pray for Kobe Bryant's family.
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I can't even imagine just the amount of grief that they're dealing with. And so as a
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Christian, you know, we can't compromise the truth of the gospel, which, which basically says that you're saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
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When it comes to people that we know are people that we like, and there is just, I mean, the implications of that are extremely difficult to wrestle with.
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Well, what about Kobe Bryant? So Jason Peterson wrote an article, basically saying that he believes that Kobe Bryant is in heaven.
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Now, when I, when I saw the article, somebody else had, had pointed it out, tagged us in it.
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When I saw the article, I thought that the, the route that Jason Peterson was going to take would have was, was basically going to be this.
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Yes, it's possible for a Roman Catholic to be saved. We would wholeheartedly agree with that.
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It is possible for a professing Roman Catholic to be saved. We, we've said that many times.
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The problem is, is that you have to, you have to make, you have to be careful. Doug Wilson is not careful.
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He's sloppy. The stuff he says is stupid. The Roman Catholic, I'm going to explain it.
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Hold on. I'm going to explain it. The Roman Catholic church condemned the gospel at the council of Trent.
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They basically said, if you, if you hold to justification by faith alone, you're anathema. So they, they condemned the gospel.
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And consequently condemned themselves. Now, this is actually something that you've pointed out in your article,
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Carlos. So what we mean by what we're saying is it is possible for somebody to say like,
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Oh, I'm Roman Catholic, because this is what they've, they've identified as they grew up that way. And, and yet they truly believe the gospel because they really don't understand what
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Roman Catholicism teaches. And they, they think like, Oh yeah, Roman Catholics, like they teach this, they teach that, you know, you're saved by Jesus, Jesus Christ.
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And, and you'll be saved, you know, if you believe in him, well, we would tell that person, okay. So it's possible that you, that you are, you might really be saved, but at that point, you're not a
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Roman Catholic. So you need to tell that person, Hey, listen. So according to Rome, you are, you are condemned if you believe that.
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And, and the, the judgments at the council of Trent were later deemed infallible. So this is the official teaching of the
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Roman Catholic church. If you believe the gospel, according to them, you are condemned. You are not, you are not, you are not saved according to them.
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So at that point, because salvation only comes through the Roman Catholic church, according to them, you are not a
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Roman Catholic. So that's where I thought Jason was going to go with this was, you know, yeah,
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I've met people. We live in a heavily predominant Roman Catholic city. I've met people where they grew up Roman Catholic and it's like, yeah,
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I'm Catholic. They don't understand what Roman Catholicism teaches. And you just have to gently respectfully say, look, man, you're not really
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Roman Catholic. It sounds like you're a Bible believing Christian and you should just embrace that and stop saying that you're a
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Roman Catholic. So that's what, that's what we mean when we say yes, it's possible for a professing
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Roman Catholic to be saved. We do not mean that it is possible for an actual
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Roman Catholic to be saved because in order to be a Roman Catholic, you have to deny the gospel.
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So I hope that people are understanding how that's, that's playing out. I mean, this is, this is, this is rational, logical thinking here.
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And unfortunately, Jason Peterson, he wrote an article in which the way that he affirmed whether or not
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Kobe Bryant was, was saved or not. He writes, it is my position that the
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Catholic's conception of justification is not consistent with Ephesians two verses eight through nine.
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Amen. You're right. It's not. But then he says, but the essence of the gospel they preach is by faith alone, just as it is with the
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Protestants. That is a complete total undermining of the entire
35:12
Protestant Reformation. And Jason with, with, with this, with this thinking would completely undermine the
35:20
Protestant Reformation. This is extremely dangerous. So I wrote to him and I said, my friend, you need to recant this.
35:29
You need to, you need to like recant this. You know, my hope is that he would.
35:35
And basically wrote back and he said, it's my position, take it or leave it. This is my position. And then he informed me that he is now a word of faith and that he is a
35:43
Messianic Jew. This type of thinking is extremely dangerous because Rome teaches a false gospel.
35:51
And so for Jason to say that the essence of the gospel that they preach, that the Roman Catholic priests preach, that the
35:59
Pope preaches, that the system holds to is essentially that the essence is by faith alone.
36:10
Either Jason does not understand the Roman Catholic position or he does not understand the biblical position.
36:19
And, and in both, so either J and it's possible that Jason may not be saved. I, I, I don't know.
36:26
I'm going to hold out hope, but there's, there's absolutely no way that he should be on a platform instructing people.
36:36
He is, he is prominent within the, the Clarkian groups because he was a very, very outspoken
36:45
Clarkian. And he is, he's actually writing a book, a new book on Clarkian apologetics.
36:52
The irony here is that this is step one in defending the faith is you,
36:58
I mean, if you cannot get this right, then there's no reason that anybody should read your book on, on defending the faith.
37:09
It's, it's, it is totally, I mean, Carlos, do you have any, do you have any thoughts on this?
37:19
Yeah. If, if by defending the faith, you mean defending Roman Catholicism, then it's not the true faith.
37:25
So, and what I was going to say is, like, you can't be, you know, when people say you can be saved if you're a
37:37
Roman Catholic, but the problem is you, a true Roman Catholic cannot be saved. Like, because of what you just explained that the council of Trent, the
37:45
Roman Catholic church has very clearly anathematized and condemned the biblical gospel of justification by faith alone.
37:52
And that's only one, that's only one of a myriad, an entire quagmire of heaps and mountains of false doctrines upon false teachings that the, the, the
38:02
Roman Catholic church has perpetuated for centuries. And so he's, he is seriously confused and there is just, he is, he is completely unreliable when it comes to spiritual things.
38:18
Now, from, from, from what I read in, in the, his article about Kobe Bryant, that was just, he just took a really, really bad wrong turn and he's just not in a, it seems like he's not even rational anymore.
38:31
Like he's just totally irrational. What he's saying is just irrational nonsense compared to, you know, coming from a position of, of a
38:42
Clarkian, of a scripturalist, somebody who values logic and consistency and arguments and, and, and consistent biblical systematic doctrine.
38:52
Going from that to this is, is a completely like 180, just the worst kind of possible turn that somebody can, can take from what it seems.
39:03
And I will say I have had some, some experience with Messianic Judaism.
39:11
It's interesting because in my college class, I have a religious studies minor.
39:16
So I took a, a religious studies class where they encouraged us to attend a, a service that wasn't our, our own faith.
39:26
So I went to a mess, a Messianic Jewish church and here in town and it was pretty cool.
39:36
I mean, it was interesting there. They have a, they had a rabbi and he kind of was going through the Hebrew.
39:41
He would explain everything and for, you know, he would read it in Hebrew and then explain it. And it was, it was an interesting learning experience, but there were,
39:50
I noticed some things when talking to the people in the church that kind of alarmed me. One was that they all seem to, some of them seem to love
39:58
John Hagee. And John Hagee, I remember when
40:04
I, I started listening to him when I was first saved and he made a pretty troubling statement that kind of got me thinking like, what?
40:14
He said something like, if you're not assured of your salvation, then you're not saved. So something like that.
40:20
He was equating like assurance with salvation. But, and he said other really bad stuff before, way worse than that.
40:26
Like he's apparently, one of his books, he says that Jesus didn't even come to be the Messiah or something like that. So there's, there's some serious problems with, there can be some serious problems with Messianic Judaism because they also say like, well, it's okay to keep the law if you want to, you don't have to, but you know, you can.
40:45
And it's like, well, that's not really the impression that Paul gives. He says, I mean, you're, this is a waste of time if you're not, these are old and done away with obsolete covenant things that you don't need to even bother with anymore because Christ is already here.
41:02
So why would you bother? And so, and there was also another ministry called
41:09
Zola Levitt. I used to get their newsletter called the Levitt Letter. And this article just kind of, it was a tipping point for me because they had an article talking about the
41:20
Pope and the Pope said something critical about Israel. And their whole concern, and this is tying into what, what's going on with Jason, ironically, because their whole point was that the
41:33
Pope pray, they, they, I think they even said at the end of the article, let's pray that the
41:39
Pope will have a better disposition and attitude towards Israel. So right there, you can already see that their priority was not the gospel.
41:48
Their priority was not Christ. Their priority was not the Bible. It was Israel. It was all about the political nation of Israel in which the
41:57
New Testament is still banned, by the way, the last time I checked. And so he, he, they're, they make these issues, like these dispensational issues, like Israel, the nation of Israel, they're all about that.
42:11
And they're, they're even willing to go as far as to say, pray that the Pope will have a better attitude towards Israel.
42:17
And it's like, you completely missed the mark. Yeah. Why don't we pray that Israel will have a better attitude towards their
42:25
Messiah? Yeah. I mean, you know, like, and how about you pray that the Pope will like renounce his false gospel and I mean, quit or something like, well, stop being antichrist.
42:38
Yeah. Yeah. Well, okay. So let's wrap this up. Jason, I still like you, but I, I absolutely 100 % disagree with you.
42:46
I think that where your theology is headed is dangerous. Um, if you would lead people back to Rome, that antichrist system, then, you know, you should not be platforming yourself.
43:01
You should, you should, you should quit and study some more.
43:07
We, we have resources. We have people available to you. Uh, Timothy Kaufman is, uh, is an expert in this area.
43:14
He's also a Clarkian. Um, so, uh, we would commend you to the stuff that we've put out on, on Roman Catholicism.
43:23
And, um, in the meantime, uh, we are, we are going to warn people away from you and it's not something that Carlos and I, um, enjoy.
43:34
Um, we, you know, we, we just can't sacrifice truth for, for friendship.
43:42
Um, and real quick, just, uh, if people want, I don't know if you mentioned it, but people want the context to the previous, uh, fiasco that, that went on with Robbins regarding Robbins and Talbot and, uh,
43:56
Jason Peterson. Uh, we, we wrote an article called knowledge, faith, and the marks of a true Clarkian that you can check out at, uh,
44:02
Thorncrown ministries if you're interested. Um, yeah. So James White, that's, that's how you do it.
44:09
I mean, that's what you should do with respect to your buddy,
44:16
Doug Wilson. Um, nobody likes it. It sucks.
44:22
Uh, but if you're going to be faithful to the truth, um, do you have to take these steps?
44:30
Uh, so Jason, you're also free to reach out to us, um, and, uh, and contact us.
44:35
Um, I'm not sure how much I'll be able to engage in, in debate or dialogue. I know that you, uh, didn't seem like you wanted to, but I would still, uh,
44:44
I'd still consider you a friend. Uh, if you ever came to town, um, I'd take you out to lunch.
44:50
So, um, I'm trying to be as, as respectful as possible, but, um, at the same time, we're drawing a line here.
44:57
Uh, we want to tell our listeners not to, not to read Jason Peterson's stuff. All right.
45:03
So Carlos, let's jump into your article. And we have gone very long. Um, podcasting is, it's tough work guys.
45:13
So, uh, once again, your article, and this is, uh, with respect to John Piper, um, is when
45:20
Protestants err on the side of Rome, John Piper, final salvation and the decline and fall of Sola Fide at the last day.
45:26
Part two, we are looking at fatal flaw number six. And, uh, as I've already mentioned, that is titled deadening the resurrection.
45:36
Uh, so why don't you just go ahead and lead us into that? And, um,
45:41
I might ask you some questions. Yeah. So the, we, um, we started this section on the last episode, um, and we kind of concluded by reading
45:51
Turretin, Francis Turretin and John Calvin on these issues, uh, regarding the final judgment.
45:58
You know, that's really, the more I think about it, the more I kind of start to, to, to see things from a, from a big picture.
46:07
And really Piper's issue is his view of the final judgment is really what's, what's at the, at the core of his problem.
46:16
His, his understanding of the final judgment is so messed up that it bleeds into all this other stuff.
46:23
And, you know, starting with the doctrine of the resurrection of the justification, and then, but, but it's his view of the final judgment that kind of causes him to, to corrupt and to falsely dichotomize, uh, initial justification with final salvation.
46:40
And so you really see, you really see that with regarding the resurrection and his take on that.
46:48
And so, um, we, we kind of ended on, on the talking about the fact that when you, when you teach something like that, initial and final justification or salvation, it undermines every legal status that the believer has in Christ, even sonship, even adoption.
47:06
It undermines everything because if you still have to show up on the final judgment to prove yourself, to prove that you're worthy of entering heaven, it was all for naught.
47:16
It's not, it means nothing until you can present your inherent righteousness before the, before the throne of, of judgment in Piper's view.
47:25
So, um, there are a myriad of errors there. And so now regarding, because, because here's, because Piper teaches that Christ will judge believers by putting their works on trial as a judge.
47:43
He's very emphatic about that. We've quoted that repeatedly. We're going to face Christ as a judge, according to Piper, which is how he will actually judge unbelievers.
47:53
So he's not even making a distinction between how he's going to judge believers and unbelievers.
47:59
And so Piper contradicts the reality that God is no longer a judge, but a father to us.
48:05
He's a father to believers. And so he totally undermines this relational, this complete transformational aspect to the, our standing with God, starting with justification, but also the fact that we are now sons of God.
48:23
And so sin becomes a domestic issue, no longer a legal criminal issue. We're no longer criminals in the eyes of God.
48:29
We are sons and daughters. So in a, so, and Piper recently attempted to clarify that by, by coming full circle to the logic of his teaching.
48:40
He said, glorification in Paul's thinking is a process that begins at conversion.
48:45
It doesn't begin at the last judgment. It begins at conversion and includes sanctification.
48:52
It's consummated at final salvation. This is key.
48:59
This is very important to understanding how Piper is wrong about this. He is saying that glorification is consummated.
49:08
It reaches its full manifestation or potential, whatever, until final salvation.
49:19
Now, according to Piper, when is final salvation? So this is, this is one of the things that keeps coming up.
49:28
And so Tim Coffman actually addressed it in, in our article that we coauthored.
49:36
People like to say that Piper is speaking of glorification, not justification. So that is actually objection number two.
49:46
Tim Coffman writes, some of Piper's defenders insist that it is wrong to make final salvation mean final justification in Piper.
49:55
It seems to them rather that Piper is talking about final glorification instead. One problem with having
50:02
Piper speak of glorification is that Piper repeatedly states that final glorification is our inheritance after attaining or getting to heaven.
50:12
In other words, as shown above, final salvation is salvation from future judgment or salvation after future judgment.
50:23
And in Piper's thinking, glorification only occurs after that judgment.
50:31
So he goes on to, he goes on to, I guess, work this out a little bit more.
50:39
But so basically, yeah, yeah. So the problem, so Piper is saying it's consummated at final salvation.
50:48
And then in Piper's article, he says, in final salvation at the last judgment.
50:54
So he's making it very, like what Coffman is explaining, Piper is making it very clear that what he means when he's talking about final salvation, he's talking about the last judgment.
51:05
So our glorification, according to Piper, will not be consummated until we are judged by Christ, until after we're judged by Christ.
51:14
And so that leads to a little bit of some problems.
51:22
We'll just put it that way for now. So the first problem is that it contradicts the
51:31
Bible, like flatly. And this is not a difficult doctrine to discern.
51:36
It's a basic, this is just basic Bible 101. So it contradicts the biblical teaching that glorification is actually consummated when
51:47
Christ returns and glorifies believers at the resurrection. And this is again why
51:54
I titled the article, I mean this flaw, deadening the resurrection.
52:00
Because to Piper, he's completely undermining and ignoring the fact that that is when glorification is consummated.
52:10
When we are saved, our spirits are regenerated, our bodies are still corrupt.
52:18
When Christ comes back, when he comes back, he is going to glorify his saints.
52:28
He is going to bring the dead back to life in Christ, and then he's going to instantly glorify those who are alive at the time.
52:35
So our glorification will be consummated when
52:40
Christ comes back, before the final judgment even takes place. So you see the problems being drawn out so badly, all because Piper insists on this initial and final salvation thing.
52:58
It's so flatly, this contradicts basic Bible doctrines.
53:05
And this is as basic as basic can get. And it's not just that.
53:13
So that's what the Bible teaches, that Christ is going to come back, he's going to glorify believers at the resurrection.
53:22
Now if Piper had meant that glorification is consummated when Christ returns, not to judge, but to vindicate believers and reward them for their good works, then he would agree with the
53:36
Bible in historic Protestantism, because that's what those teach. But once again, and it's so ironic, because he's claiming this whole mainstream reform view, and it's like, dude, you're at odds with basic Bible doctrines at this point.
53:52
You're just so way off. You can't even get basic, simple Bible doctrines correct.
54:01
And obviously that's not what he's saying. He's not saying what I just explained here.
54:07
That's not at all what he's saying. He's saying glorification is consummated at final salvation. So can you take a moment to talk a little bit about the doctrine of vindication and how that differs from what
54:26
Piper is saying? So unpack what do you mean by the doctrine of vindication for those who don't know. But then also specifically highlight how he's not speaking of the doctrine of vindication, because that's another thing that comes up.
54:40
People either say, well, he's speaking of glorification, not justification, or they will say that he is just spousing the doctrine of vindication, which is what they claim is right in line with Protestant orthodoxy.
54:59
So can you just dig into that a little bit deeper since you mentioned it? Yeah. And there's a really good quote.
55:08
I'm going to read the Westminster Standards to explain that a little bit more. Wait a minute.
55:15
We're Reformed Baptists. Are you allowed to do that? Oh, yeah. As long as they agree with us, then we're good.
55:24
Same team. Yeah, right. But here's the thing. That's what this section is all about.
55:33
This is what Piper is so dead, pun intended, wrong about.
55:39
Because the resurrection itself is the cosmic vindication of God's people.
55:45
That is the proof that you belong to God at the final judgment, at the second coming, at the return of Christ.
55:54
Earlier, in a previous episode, I read a quote by Michael Horton, who says the exact same thing.
56:02
He says, all who have been justified inwardly renewed and are being conformed to Christ's image, but their cosmic vindication as the justified people of God will be revealed in the resurrection of the dead.
56:16
So that's the whole point of the resurrection. And so many people undermine this doctrine completely.
56:25
The resurrection is our vindication. It's going to be obvious by the glorified nature of your body.
56:34
When Christ comes back, it will be obvious who belongs to who or who's going where.
56:41
So this is the big problem with many
56:46
Protestants today that maybe even aren't as bad as Piper, because they keep insisting on having to prove yourself somehow with good works.
56:57
And it's like, you just completely missed the point. You're completely missing the point about what
57:04
Christ has already done for us. And that's going to become beautifully manifested at the resurrection.
57:10
It's going to be a glorious moment where we are going to be fully, finally consummated in glory.
57:20
And not in the sense that we'll be in heaven or whatever, but in a personal sense.
57:30
Our glorification is going to be consummated when Christ resurrects us with a glorified body.
57:37
And so he just missed the whole point. I mean, he didn't just miss the point. He basically destroys the doctrine of the resurrection.
57:47
To Piper, he makes it mean absolutely nothing. But here's the thing.
57:55
There's an issue here because on one hand, in some sense, he does acknowledge that Christ will resurrect believers upon his return.
58:07
The interesting thing is, as I kind of started reading again his articles, he doesn't really mention glorification in the context of the resurrection.
58:16
And here's why. You can see why. Because he doesn't believe it's going to happen fully until after you get judged by Christ.
58:24
And so that's completely destroying the eschatological timeline that the
58:29
Bible clearly teaches. Well, can I chime in? Yeah. Not only that, but at the final judgments according to Piper, it's almost like you have to present your good works in order to demonstrate before everybody else that you really were his.
58:46
There's nothing left to prove. Yeah. And so on that note, let me go ahead and play a short little video clip to illustrate just exactly what
58:58
Piper's teaching. I like to think, for example, of the thief on the cross.
59:05
Okay. A lifetime of sin. All he did was sin for what? Forty years? He's dying.
59:12
May begin by cursing, like we heard from John. Bam! The spirit blew.
59:19
Where it wills, no explanation. This man's repenting. He's crying out for mercy.
59:27
And Jesus says, see in paradise today, that man will experience the judgment according to works.
59:37
What will he have? Not many. Half an hour's worth, but they're sweet and they're real.
59:50
So the file will be opened, right? The books and the book. You get the book of life and you get the books.
59:55
These books are really thick. Everything you've ever done. Every idle word, Jesus says.
01:00:02
Everything. They're all written down. So this man's file is going to be picked up like this. And just every one is
01:00:07
F. His grades are all F. Pick him up, throw him out.
01:00:14
It's got a little teeny file at the back. And in it, his heart was broken for his sin.
01:00:24
Recognized Savior. Lovingly exhorted his comrade in evil died.
01:00:35
And the Lord will hold this up to the whole universe. He was real.
01:00:41
He trusted my son. This is the evidence.
01:00:48
So that had he ever read a commandment in the Bible that says, you will not enter into the kingdom without a work.
01:01:01
He'd know how to interpret it. The work isn't the ground of his acceptance.
01:01:08
The work was the fruit of this amazing opening of his heart, believing in Jesus, being justified and the fruit for 15 minutes, half an hour, an hour.
01:01:19
And that goes written down. So that's the entire episode or the entire clip that somebody sent me, but it sounds right, but it's not right.
01:01:32
And I want you to want you to talk a little bit about this a little bit more, because what people seem to think is that your good works are going to be brought out and put on display in order to prove that you really were his.
01:01:44
And so he emphatically says, you know, he holds this up and he says he was real.
01:01:51
And what you're saying, Carlos, is that the thief on the cross is going to be standing there in his glorified body.
01:01:58
And so you're not going to need to bring forth this evidence to demonstrate that you are real, because the evidence of you being real and being a true believer is the fact that you're standing there at the last judgment in a glorified, resurrected body.
01:02:15
Yeah, man, that clip really provoked me. So this brings us back to fatal flaws one and six.
01:02:27
So because here we see, you see very clearly that what we've been saying about Piper is as accurate and he hasn't changed anything.
01:02:37
He's still saying the same thing. And so what fatal flaw number one was that according to Piper, you are going to have to present your good works before God as forensic evidence.
01:02:50
So now he's describing the thief on the cross, presenting, okay, you have an F for all your bad stuff here.
01:02:57
And then for your good works, your post -conversion works, you have a tiny little file. Here is your legal forensic evidence that is going to contribute to your justification and merit heaven for you.
01:03:11
Because if you didn't have this, you wouldn't get in. And so there you see the problem by making our good works contribute, literally contribute forensically to our justification.
01:03:25
That is a false teaching. And so the way that he gets away with this is because he says it's not the grounds of our justification.
01:03:34
It's the fruit of our justification. But according to Piper, we are saved through that faith and that fruit.
01:03:43
Yeah, this is where, and we've gone over this on numerous episodes, but this is where people need to understand.
01:03:53
The evidence of our faith is evidence before other men.
01:03:59
It's not evidence before God on the final judgment. This is where Piper really perverts this to a level that makes it undermine the biblical doctrine of justification completely.
01:04:18
Because nothing can contribute to your justification whatsoever, especially not your works. And Piper is saying, in order for you to get into heaven, you need to be forensically evaluated by God.
01:04:27
And have works, inherent righteousness present so that you can be declared worthy by God and therefore justified by God and be allowed into heaven.
01:04:39
So that's the first thing. And then the second thing. And real quickly, basically what this does, what
01:04:49
Piper's teaching of the final judgment, having to present your evidence, what you pointed out was, notice the legal terms.
01:04:58
You have to present evidence in a courtroom in order to render a verdict. So this undermines every legal status that you already have in justification.
01:05:07
Oh, and he said, you're going to face the judgment. He made that clear, even in the sermon. You're going to face
01:05:12
God as judge. You're going to face him on the judgment day. It's a clearly forensic and legal event.
01:05:18
And the other thing that we wanted to point out is that we do agree that there's a judgment according to works.
01:05:25
That was actually something that I wrote in my article with Tim Coffman, if you want to go back and read that.
01:05:31
We agree that there's a judgment of works, but this is not the judgment of works. And we're going to get into that too. Yeah. Go ahead,
01:05:39
Carlos. And then, of course, the other issue is, hello, what about the resurrection?
01:05:47
You're going to show up glorified at the final judgment already. What evidence do you need?
01:05:54
Who are you trying to… What is there left to prove? There's nothing left to prove, Piper. You got it completely wrong.
01:06:02
There's nothing left to prove. Christ proved it already, and he's going to give it to you when he comes back.
01:06:08
That's the first thing he's going to do. Yeah. And that's why
01:06:15
I wanted to play this clip, because he emphatically says he's going to pull out this little file, and he's going to say, he was real.
01:06:24
It's like you… Yeah. He's glorified. This is not the evidence that everybody…
01:06:31
Look at this little file. This is the evidence. This is not the evidence that will really make manifest before everybody that he was real.
01:06:40
You know, this is what's so aggravating, because they miss the profundity and the power and the simplicity of what the
01:06:51
Bible teaches about these events. It's so powerful, and it's so assuring that Christ is going to give you your glorified state.
01:06:58
You're not going to have to earn it. So, I'm sorry, but Piper, his teaching is so damaging to all of these basic Bible doctrines from justification to the resurrection.
01:07:11
And it's like, what do you have left to prove? There's nothing left to prove.
01:07:17
It's such a perverted undermining of Christ's satisfaction on the cross, of Christ enabling us to become sons and brothers with him, and everything else that we've talked about.
01:07:30
It flies in the face of everything the Bible teaches. So, on the other hand,
01:07:36
Piper also claims… Did you ever read from the Westminster Confession of Faith? I'm about to. Piper claims that believers will not be fully glorified until they pass the final judgment of good works and are deemed worthy of heaven, and further stresses that the transformation or personal holiness of believers is, quote, really necessary for final salvation and for the, quote, lived out perfection that they will, quote, finally obtain in heaven.
01:08:06
Those are Piper's words, and I know you alluded to Coffman's article talking about this as well.
01:08:12
This is a total perversion of the resurrection, like, total undermining of the resurrection.
01:08:19
And here he is saying, my answer is the answer of the entire mainstream Reformed tradition, and not just Calvinists would talk this way, many others would as well, blah, blah, blah.
01:08:29
And so, we've already seen very clearly, if you've been following with us and if you've read the article, that Piper's answers contradict basic Bible doctrine 101, and as well as the entire mainstream of the
01:08:46
Reformed tradition, ironically, which is the very thing he's claiming in his favor. So, let's look at what the
01:08:53
Reformed standards actually say. Let's read the Westminster Larger Catechism, Question 87, which reads,
01:09:00
What are we to believe concerning the resurrection? We are to believe that at the last day there shall be a general resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust, when they that are then found alive shall in a moment be changed, and the selfsame bodies of the dead which were laid in the grave, being then again united to their souls forever, shall be raised up by the power of Christ.
01:09:25
The bodies of the just, by the Spirit of Christ, and by the virtue of his resurrection as their head, shall be raised in power, spiritual, incorruptible, and made like to his glorious body.
01:09:38
And the bodies of the wicked shall be raised up in dishonor by him as an offended judge. So, notice there, raised and made like to his glorious body.
01:09:51
He's talking about glorification when Christ comes back. Exactly what we've been talking about this whole time.
01:09:58
That's what the Reformed standards teach. That's totally contrary to what Piper is teaching.
01:10:04
Now, Question 90 is, What shall be done to the righteous at the
01:10:10
Day of Judgment? Get this, man. This is almost stunning how much it goes against what
01:10:21
Piper is saying. Check this out. At the Day of Judgment, the righteous, being caught up to Christ in the clouds, shall be set on his right hand, and there openly acknowledged and acquitted, shall join with him in the judging of reprobate angels and men, and shall be received into heaven, where they shall be fully and forever freed from all sin and misery, filled with inconceivable joys, made perfectly holy and happy, both in body and soul, in the company of innumerable saints and holy angels, but especially in the immediate vision and fruition of God the
01:10:58
Father, of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit to all eternity. And this is the perfect and full communion, which the members of the
01:11:05
Invisible Church shall enjoy with Christ in glory, at the Resurrection and Day of Judgment.
01:11:13
At the Resurrection. Can we say case closed now?
01:11:20
What more do we need to say? Well, I want to say one more thing. So, right there, it says, according to Protestant tradition and the
01:11:33
Bible, that those who are resurrected in Christ will take part in judging angels and men, fallen men.
01:11:47
They will not be subject to that same judgment. So, this couldn't be more contrary to what
01:11:54
Piper is saying. Not only will we not be judged, what I just read here says that we are going to be openly acknowledged and acquitted, because our judgment has already passed in Christ.
01:12:07
He already satisfied it. He is going to acknowledge and acquit us, meaning that we're already in, you're in already, you don't need to be judged.
01:12:18
And not only that, we are going to join Christ alongside Him to judge the wicked and the unbelievers.
01:12:27
This is fascinating. This is what the Bible teaches, that this is what Jesus said in John 5, where He said, is it
01:12:35
John 5? If I'm right, where He says, if you believe, you will not enter into judgment.
01:12:42
Yep, John 5, 24. Yeah, and that's what Piper has you do. And so, Piper is confusing the, he thinks that the believers are going to be standing in the place of the condemned.
01:13:00
And once again, I mean, just go back to Matthew 7. If you rightly understand that verse, you will understand
01:13:07
Piper's error, because Piper is putting believers in the place of unbelievers.
01:13:14
Believers are not going to be judged in the courtroom of Christ and have to prove that they are truly
01:13:23
His by presenting their good works as evidence. That's what the false converts do in Matthew 7, 21 through 23, who
01:13:34
Jesus condemns. As we've already said a dozen times, Jesus is speaking of that final day, the day of judgment.
01:13:42
The ones who see Christ as judge and try to present their good works to Him are the ones who are lost.
01:13:48
What Carlos, you're pointing out here is really fascinating, because, and just,
01:13:54
I mean, it's amazing, because what you're pointing out is that true believers are actually going to take part in the judgment as judges.
01:14:05
Yeah, this is, man, not only will
01:14:10
Christians be glorified prior to the final judgment, making it obvious to everyone that God, quote, openly acknowledged and acquitted them on account of Christ alone, but the passages that many evangelicals like Piper use to scare believers out of their assurance, such as Matthew 7, 21 through 23, actually teach that believers, instead of being judged, quote,
01:14:44
Know ye not that the saints shall judge the world? Know ye not that we shall judge angels?
01:14:53
I'm sure Piper's familiar with those verses, or he must be, but practically speaking, he's not at all, because he's not acknowledging them, he's completely undermining them and contradicting them because of his false teaching.
01:15:07
It's astounding how the contrast, the picture that the Bible paints of the final judgment is so fascinating, and it's such a rewarding experience for the believer, and yet, what is it for Piper?
01:15:22
For Piper, and I need to say this now, I was going to save it, but I need to say it now, what is the purpose, because I've asked myself, what purpose does the resurrection serve for Piper?
01:15:35
And what does it really serve? If it's not vindicating us, if the resurrection doesn't vindicate us, if the resurrection doesn't glorify us, if the resurrection doesn't really do any of those things, then what does it actually do?
01:15:48
And the conclusion that I've come to is that really the main purpose of the resurrection for Piper is basically to haul your sorry tail into judgment so that you can be put on trial and prove that you're worthy of getting in.
01:16:03
It's just to put you in a body so that you can be judged. Can I read something to you? Because you pointed out a couple of Bible passages that people, where Piper's getting this from.
01:16:15
One of the Bible passages that Piper and other people use to support this view is
01:16:25
James chapter 2. Because James references being justified by works, right?
01:16:33
And the verse that everybody usually cites is James 2,
01:16:41
I always forget it, James 2, 24, I believe. Where it says, you see that faith,
01:16:53
I'm sorry, it says, you see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
01:16:59
And so let me just read something to you, Carlos, from David Platt, who just mangles
01:17:06
James. David Platt, in one of his books, he writes, and by the way,
01:17:14
I'm going to do a full episode by myself on James chapter 2, verses 14 through 26, because this is so destructive, the way that these people are thinking about this.
01:17:27
David Platt writes, it seems clear that James is not referring to initial justification, that is the time when we first believe and are declared right before God, but rather to final justification.
01:17:40
Final justification refers to what will happen the day of judgment when
01:17:46
God declares us right in his sight. And so, that's essentially, that's exactly what
01:17:55
Piper's teaching. David Platt actually uses the term final justification. Piper seems to prefer the term final salvation, but they're both speaking of what will happen at the last judgment, according to them.
01:18:10
And one of the verses that they use to support this is being justified by works in order to demonstrate that your faith was real.
01:18:19
This all ties into James chapter 2. One really simple way to dispel this understanding and to correct it is just to simply ask, for when
01:18:30
James says, he says in verse 24, you see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone, he's pointing to something that he just said.
01:18:40
He's pointing to the example of Abraham. Well, folks, when was
01:18:46
Abraham justified according to James? Is that going to be at the last judgment?
01:18:53
It already happened thousands of years ago. Abraham has already been justified according to James.
01:18:59
And then he points to Rahab, the prostitute, who was justified. So, is
01:19:05
James talking about the final judgment and being justified, final justification at the final judgment?
01:19:13
No. James never once mentions the final judgment in relation to what he says about justification.
01:19:20
And all we have to do is ask, when was Abraham justified according to James? Was it at the final judgment?
01:19:27
No. Because that's not what James is talking about. James is talking about being justified, your profession of faith being justified before other people.
01:19:37
And so, this has already taken place in the life of believers here and now.
01:19:43
So, these guys have got the final judgment. What's going to take place at the final judgment completely wrong.
01:19:53
And it's extremely dangerous because you're messing with the doctrine of justification. It's pretty stark how the effect that this has on so many so much of the vital doctrines of the
01:20:10
Bible is pretty amazing. And it's a destructive heresy. Carlos, I think you said it right when you said that these are book -end passages.
01:20:18
These are book -end doctrines. Yeah. If you get these wrong, you're going to stray into Roman Catholicism.
01:20:27
And the Roman Catholics are the ones who try to reconcile Paul's view of justification with James' view of justification by saying that Paul is speaking of our initial justification and Paul and that Paul is speaking of our initial justification and James is speaking of our final justification.
01:20:45
That's how they reconcile this. And it's wrong. It's wrong. And you are messing with I mean, if you can't get justification right, don't go into ministry.
01:20:56
Well, and I think this is probably a good place to end it for now. But, you know, keep in mind,
01:21:05
I want to close with this and then we can there's still a few loose ends that we need to tie up. the
01:21:10
Bible teaches that the saints will judge the world. The Bible teaches that we shall judge angels, that we shall judge the world with Christ.
01:21:20
We are not going to be judged. That is very clear in the Scriptures. Now, we need to we're going to have to tie up a few loose ends because there are some issues regarding the judgment of works and the rewards and all those things.
01:21:38
I think it'd be good to pick that up next time. And and also when we start talking about the next section regarding holiness and those those other book and passages hopefully with Hiram.
01:21:52
But this is it just keeps getting worse. This is what's so amazing about it.
01:21:58
You would think that we would have finished digging up all the bones and it's we keep finding there's just more and more and it keeps getting worse and worse and the damage is still happening.
01:22:13
The damage is still being done. It's like when is this going to stop? You know? And how much more do we need to show people just how destructive this heresy really is?
01:22:24
But there is more and we there's definitely more and it's important stuff that we still have to cover.
01:22:31
But I think that's a good place to to land on for now.
01:22:37
Alright. Yeah. I agree with you. And Carlos do you want to just give out the information if anybody wants to get in touch with us?
01:22:46
Yeah. So if you want to contact us you can email us at thorncrownministries at gmail .com
01:22:52
and you can also contact us you can leave us a voicemail through our number which is 915 -302 -0915
01:23:05
So you can send us or you can submit you can contact us via the website submit a you can submit a question or an inquiry and you can also subscribe to the newsletter as well.
01:23:16
So we want to say thank you to our listeners and we appreciate you sticking with us and go ahead and contact us if you have any questions comments or concerns and we will check you next time.