Matt Slick Live- What About Holy Hip Hop?

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Here's Matt Slick. So it's, what about holy hip -hop,

NCFIC, the worship of God, this is a conference from October 31st to November 2nd, apparently, in Ridgecrest Conference, Centerville, Asheville, North Carolina.

Now when I read this, or I listen to the video, it's about 11 minutes long, I've got the transcript in front of me,

I'm going to verify the transcript, and I'm going to write a response article to it. It's already been done by several people, but I want to do it as well, but I wanted to read something to you, and tell me what you thought of this.

Let me just read the very first, the host, and then I'll skip down and get to the, so to speak, the good part.

This is what the host said, so this next question really dials in on a matter of culture and music and cultural forms.

You know, I'm old enough to have lived through a number of generations of cultural change in terms of music, and have had to grapple with the various iterations of musical forms, you know, through the years.

So I want to ask each of you this question again, I'd like you to speak very distinctly about it, and I've got a number of questions like this, and it goes like this, any thoughts on reformed rap artists?

And I'll start with you, Dan, I want to run down the line, he goes on, so Dan says, and I would be very against reformed rap.

Let me tell you why, words aren't enough, God cares about how we deliver the message, and there's two aspects of delivery, right?

The purpose of songs is to instruct, it is also to praise God, it is also to worship, but it's to instruct and to admonish.

We're given the words because we're a word -based religion, the emphasis needs to be on the words. All right, he goes on.

Second guy, Scott Anial says, music is a medium of communication, and God cares not just what we say, but he cares how we say it, and that's a function of music.

And if we truly believe in the sufficiency and authority of scripture, then I believe that the scripture should govern not just what we say, in other words, not just the content, because I'll agree,

I've had a lot of lyrics from the reformed rap, and some of them are much more doctrinally dense than some of our songs, that's true.

So they recognize, okay, there's some good stuff in there, all right. However, if we truly believe in the sufficiency and authority of scripture, scripture will govern not just what we say, but it will also govern how we say it.

Okay, now here's my question so far, where in the scripture does it talk about musical styles?

Now, the Psalms, it tells us to worship God with songs, and timbrels, and stringed instruments, and wind instruments, and things like this.

So where did it do that? David danced naked before the Lord. Yeah, I don't know.

So maybe we'll get some naked rap later, I don't know if it's biblical. But here's the thing, I want to know, seriously,

I want to know, does anybody know anything out there? I've not studied this in depth, so is there anything in scripture that says certain kinds of music are bad, like heavy metal?

And my wife and I were talking about this today, and she brought up something I'd forgotten about. She brought up the group

Striper. Now, a lot of you don't know who Striper is, S -T -R -Y -P -E -R,

Striper. Striper was a heavy metal band back in the 80s, glam rock, and big hair, and spandex, and things like that, and they were hardcore

Christians. They had, if I remember correctly, the number one video on MTV at one point.

This is a hardcore Christian band. Their lyrics were great, they were Christians.

They were reaching out into a culture where the people with the suit and ties, and the perfect hair, and nice teeth, and the southern drawl aren't going to be able to get into and be taken seriously.

They went in and did the heavy metal, and their stuff was good, seriously. Look them up on YouTube, Striper, S -T -R -Y -P -E -R, and you can hear songs like To Hell With The Devil, that's one of the songs.

And it's a good song. Now, I like metal, I mean, I have no problem with it, but are we to say that we cannot worship

God like that? Or we cannot use it as a means to reaching unbelievers? Would Jesus be saying,

I'm sorry, but you can't use distortion guitar and bass drums when you do worship to God, or trying to reach unbelievers, you just can't do that.

We have nothing like that in Scripture. Now, there's a thing called the regulative principle. There's two versions of it.

One says you can only do what the Scriptures tell you to do in worship, and the other one says you can do anything unless the

Scriptures forbid it, as far as worship goes. Well, whichever one, if the Bible says we can only do what the

Scripture tells us, it says to use drums, percussion instruments, stringed instruments, and it says to use song and dance in worship.

It tells us to do these things. So, I know nothing that says, you know, iambic pentameter is allowed.

I know nothing of a four beat, whatever it is, minus a harmony in a bridge. I don't know of any place in Scripture that says you can have this rate of beat above or not below, or this fast, whatever it is.

I just, I've not heard of it. What is rap? Rap is a stylistic speech put to a beat.

So, I guess that's an evil form? I'm trying to understand.

If I was on the panel, and I was the last one that they came to, I'd be looking at these guys and saying, excuse me, gentlemen, can you back any of this up with Scripture?

I just disagree with you. I think that we should be careful sitting here in our suits and ties in a,

I don't know, white only church, I don't know, didn't see the audience, a panel discussion, looking down our noses at rappers who are trying to reach out with good reformed theology put to rap style music, and we're going to sit here and condemn.

Show me the justification in Scripture. Yeah, you can say, I believe and I believe. Okay, if you believe, that's your opinion, that's fine.

I'll defend your right to have an opinion, but if you're going to say it is wrong or it is right, let's see it from Scripture.

We should not have what the third speaker said. Now, check this out.

This is what the third speaker said. Thank you. Yes, this guy is, according to my notes here,

Jeff Botkin. He said this. Thank you. Yes, amen to that. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.

Now, that's Romans 12 too. But here's the thing. What's that got to do with rap music? Be transformed by the renewing of your mind.

Does that mean that you can't use rap music as a style? Is that what that means? I don't know.

In the book of Hesitations, maybe it does, or the book of Deuterectomy, it says something like that. I don't know. But that's not what

I see the text meaning. If we're to be transformed by the renewing of our mind, it means that we let our mind think on things of God.

What does Reformed rap do? By definition, I'm going to get on my high horse and speak a little bit about this.

Let me tell you something. Reformed theology, you don't arrive at it by just opening your mouth and letting flies fly in there and you say, yeah,

I'm a fly player. You don't do it that way. You think of things in the scriptures and predestination, election, the nature of free will as it deals with the issue of determinism.

You think about these things and how it works. You think about the nature and the extent of the atoning work and its sufficiency and how it actually satisfied the legal requirements of the

Old Testament prophecies and law requirements in atoning sacrifice issues that Christ fulfilled.

You think about this, the nature of election and security in Christ. Generally, those who are Reformed have been transformed in part by the renewing of their mind.

Now, I know a lot of you people out there say Reformed theology is not right, blah, blah, blah, whatever. You come on this studio, we'll discuss it, okay?

And just check it out with scripture. But the thing is, be transformed by the renewing of your mind. At the very least, Reformed theology teaches using your mind and to think.

I know, I was in a chat room discussion with a woman last night who hated Reformed theology and I kept asking her questions and she finally just gave up because she didn't have answers.

I kept, well, what about this verse? What about that verse? And she just left because she wasn't thinking very deeply.

This particular person was not. So, generally speaking, people who are

Reformed have thought these things out to be transformed by the renewing of your mind.

I think that fits Reformed theology. The renewing and the thinking and the contemplation of intellectual things as found in scripture.

That's not to say that if you aren't Reformed, you're not a thinker, you're not intelligent. I'm not saying that.

I just said generally speaking, those who hold a Reformed theology do a serious amount of thinking about these issues, that's all

I'm saying. So that, if anything, would support the idea of Reformed rap.

Reformed rap has good Reformed theology in it. We already read, or I already read a little bit, the one guy who said that it was pretty good, pretty good theology.

So I don't understand why this guy would quote, and I think a misquote, of Romans 12 .2.

Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Really? The world wears suits. This guy was wearing a suit.

The world does all kinds of things, like, you know what? Goes to movies. Does he go to movies?

Drives a car. Does he drive a car? Don't be transformed. I'm just kidding. Don't be conformed to the world. In what sense does that mean that?

In its ungodliness, in its ungodliness, is rap by definition ungodly?

Some forms are. Some forms are ungodly, but some forms are not.

Heavy metal? Some of it's bad, and some of it is not. But what makes it bad? I don't think it's just the sound.

That's an evil sound right there. Look at it. Well, what is it? It's a bass note of a distorted guitar to some instrument.

Well, that's obviously an evil sound. Well, what's a good sound? Well, the violin in an orchestra. That's a good sound, because it's inherently good, and the bass guitar distorted, that's inherently evil.

You know, show me that in scripture, is, well, two beats per second is evil, but one beat per second is okay.

What is it that constitutes what is good and not music? It has to be the content and the intent.

And this is what gets me, because these reformed rappers, their content is excellent, and their intent is to glorify

God and reach people for the sake of the gospel. Now, back to what this guy says,

Jeff Botkin. Thank you. Yes, amen to that. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.

And what concerns me about this so -called art form, it's a picture of weakness and surrender on the part of people who think they're serving

God, and they're not. Oh, wait a minute. This guy knows that they're not serving

God? Show me in scripture, show me in the word of God, that gives you the authority to say that these reformed rappers are not serving

God. Show me in scripture. And if you can't, stop pontificating and get off your high horse.

Now, he goes on, this guy goes on, they're serving their own flesh. Really? Now, this is important what this guy's saying, because of the responses that come afterwards.

And he says, they're serving their own flesh. They're caving into the world. They are, they're disobedient cowards.

This is what this guy said. He said, they're not really willing to engage in the fight that needs to be engaged.

Really? They're not fighting the good fight of the faith by giving good, proper reformed theology in a rap style to people in the inner city community?

Excuse me, are you doing that, sir? Are you out there doing it? Put your hat on backwards.

You know, get some loose jeans and pull them down, your butt crack is showing, and walk out there and go, yo, dude, and try and talk to them.

Are you going to fit into that? Of course not. It'd be absurd. Why don't you let those people who are in that culture do what

God's called them to do in that culture? Instead of sitting at the safety and the distance of a panel discussion in your suit and then tell everybody that they're disobedient cowards.

I don't consider what you're saying to be particularly courageous myself. Nevertheless, Botkin goes on to say, they're not really willing to engage in the fight that needs to be engaged.

Really? Yeah. And Scott, thank you for saying that. If we are reformers, we are going to change and fully redeem and replace the world.

We're not going to make ourselves friends of the world and enemies of God. Oh, wait a minute. I guess if you like rap music, now you're an enemy of God, you're a friend of the world, and if you dare do something in rap, that means you're a friend of the world, enemy of God.

Well, let me tell you something. I cannot sing to save my life, and that's no joke.

That is not an exaggeration. My wife listening to this right now, she's saying, amen to that. I would like to be able to actually develop a rap song myself, because maybe

I could rap through it to teach biblical theology. Yeah, I'm almost 57 years old. Would it be stupid? Probably.

But I have no problem doing something like that if it would be a means by which I could use another avenue of God's gifting in order to reach somebody for the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I'd be willing to make myself look the fool in an attempt to get the word of God out, to get into the fight that needs to be engaged.

As a Reformer, I'm not seeking to be friends of the world, but to use the things of the world, even as Paul did in Acts 17 at the

Areopagus when he said, you guys here, you philosophers, you have a statute of the unknown God.

He used that, and he used it to the advantage of preaching the gospel. This God you don't even know, let me proclaim to you who he really is.

He didn't say, knock down all the idols, you conform us to the world. He used what was there, and he used it to proclaim the gospel message.

That's what we need to be doing, just like Striper did. They got so much flack from the,

I don't know, the holier -than -thou intelligentsia of the Christian community who looked down their nose at him and said, you can't wear spandex, have big hair, and do that kind of music, and try and reach unbelievers with that kind of music because it's ungodly.

I remember hearing about that when they were popular. I remember being angered by the myopic rigidity of the theologically ignorant, but the holier -than -thou attitude of so many who had to point fingers from the safety of their couches, their chairs, and their carpet -laden churches, and their comfortable pews, and look down their noses at those who are risking and getting out there off their rears and doing what they can.

We need to be supporting people like that and praying for them instead of standing in opposition to those who do something that we're not particularly comfortable with.

Sometimes Christians are their worst enemies. What's a Christian firing squad look like?

It's a circle. Let me go out and read what this guy was saying as a quote. And so this is what concerns me about any time

Christians in a cowardly way follow the world instead of changing it and confronting it and confronting the antithesis.

Really? A cowardly way instead of confronting it? Do you think that Reformed theology in the rap is a confrontation of evil by speaking the truth?

But obviously it's not. Obviously it's not confronting error, is it, by proclaiming

Jesus Christ and him crucified and the need for repentance. No.

And he goes on, and we need to be doing this in every possible art form, including film, including other kinds of music.

And so, Scott, just to summarize, Reformed rap is the cowardly following of the world instead of confronting and changing it.

Well, I can't help but say, I think that statement itself is cowardly. I noticed that in the video that I saw,

I did not see any representative of the Reformed rap group.

There was nobody there representing that side being able to say why they do it, what their motivation is.

They were not allowed to defend themselves. But these men, so to speak, of God, so to speak, got there, and they pronounced judgments upon them, judging their motives, misusing scripture, pronouncing judgments.

It's appalling. Joel Beek followed up with this immediately.

I don't have much to add. I agree with everything that's been said. Just maybe add one thought.

If my children with their upbringing were to start to embrace this, I would use all these arguments with the intensity that they've been spoken.

When someone comes to me who comes from a culture that's raised that way, had no Christian background, and first hears this kind of rap, and listens to the lyrics, and gets really interested in Christianity, first thing

I don't challenge them on, the first thing I don't challenge them on is the form of the music.

But I try to make them in, take them in, excuse me, disciple them, and break this in slowly to them.

So, let's have a little compassion for people who, for whom, they related to this culture, which we don't relate to at all probably, and work with them, it's hard to read this, sorry folks, work with them, and get them to this point where they understand these things.

But that doesn't happen in a day. That's the only thing I would add to it. This reminds me of what's called ethnocentricity.

Ethnocentricity, ethical, or excuse me, ethical. Ethnocentricity, an ethnic group.

Let's take the white Anglo -Saxon Protestant, we dress in a suit culture. And they go to Africa, and they convert natives who, you know, it's 100 degrees out there and high humidity, are now required to wear three -piece suits, and part their hair on the right side.

Because that's the proper culture, it's called ethnocentricity, judging another culture by your own culture.

Now, Jesus inculturated. He's God in flesh, created of the universe, spoke Hebrew. He walked around wearing a robe, a talit and tzitzit, had a beard.

That's what he did. He inculturated and then spoke the truth within that culture.

That's what he did. I don't see these guys doing this. I don't see them doing this at all.

Anyway, let me continue. The next guy, Jason Dom, he says, so I'm going to get sucked off the stage with the gasping that happens with what

I say here. I probably, I am the only panelist who's ever had Toby Mac on my iPod.

And then Joel Beek says, who's Toby Mac? Wow, that's telling.

Toby Mac is a Christian rap artist. He's awesome. I've got his stuff on my iPod.

My wife does, too. My kids do, too. And this guy, they're proclaiming condemnation about rap, particularly reformed rap, and one guy says,

I've got Toby Mac. Who's Toby Mac? Jason Dom continues, yeah, they want to know who Toby Mac is.

Well, we'll tell you after the panel. Why didn't he answer right there? Anyway, so here's what drove it home for me.

It's hard to read this stuff, sorry, folks, but this is really how it is. A few months ago, I saw a picture of Toby Mac and vintage Toby Mac, backwards hat, ready to rap, but he's 50 now.

He wasn't 50 when he became cool, and he's starting to have wrinkles on his face.

Okay, so he's a 50 -year -old man with wrinkles on his face, and he's got the backward cap, and he's ready to rap.

And what didn't seem unseemly when he was a young man just looks really out of place in this picture now.

So the question is, 50 -year -old men in church, it's their job to extend a hand down to the young men in the church and to pull them up into the

Christian manhood. Yeah, I guess you can't do that if you have your cap on backwards. You know, in the church

I go to, if any man over 50 has a cap on backwards, oh no, they talk to him. What are you thinking?

I have my cap on backwards? I forgot I was driving, and I listened to,

I shouldn't say it, but I listened to rap, and I turned my cap around. I just,

I couldn't help it. It was I was listening, and I went, hey, I'm turning my cap around. So I turned my cap around. I come into church and my cap around.

Sorry you can't do that in this church, because it looks unseemly. Come on, these are the arguments that these guys are giving.

I'm going to continue on with this. Joe Moorcraft said, I don't think any of us are saying that in the worship of God, there's only a certain kind of music that should be sung.

Well, praise God for that. Anyway, he goes, like we should only sing country, western music in church, or we should only sing classical music, etc.

But I think that we're all saying is that some forms of music cannot be separated from the culture out of which they come.

Really? From what I understand now, somebody out there, Radio Land can verify this. From what

I understand, when the hymns that are sung in church today came into the church, it was a big scandal.

Because that type of music wasn't considered to be godly. I remember in seminary, something like this being talked about.

In fact, Our Mighty Fortress is Our God by Martin Luther. The tune was a bar tune he picked up at taverns where they drank beer.

And he put Christian lyrics to it. Oh my goodness, now

I know Martin Luther's evil. Let's see, he goes on.

That's the important thing to bear in mind. When we have young men or women in the church, and let's say the young men start wearing an earring.

I say, what's the purpose of the earring, the pierced ear? And they'll say, well, I just like it, or I think it's nice, or it's just a fashion.

And I say, do you know why it is a fashion? Do you know who you're identifying with when you wear this earring?

You're not identifying yourself with the godly men in the church, but with an entirely different culture out there.

That's right, because we're supposed to identify with the godly men in that church.

We're supposed to dress like that group of people in that church. Now folks, let me tell you something. I go to Calvary Chapel.

I'm a five -point, amillennial, pedobaptist, non -cessationist, covenantal Calvinist. I go to Calvary Chapel.

Calvary Chapel is Arminian. I'm Calvinist. They're premillennial. I'm amillennial. They're pre -trib. I'm post -trib rapture.

Okay? I believe in limited atonement. They do not. I go to Calvary Chapel.

Guess what? I could actually pierce my left ear and wear my cap backwards and wear shorts into the church, and guess what would happen?

Guess what would happen? Nothing. They don't care. They care about your relationship with Jesus.

They care about you hearing the word of God. That's one of the reasons I go to that church. Because, I have to say this,

I've been to a lot of the other churches where, I'm sorry, you gotta be careful what you wear and what you say and how you look.

What direction you look. Let me tell you something. I was serving as an assistant pastor at a, let's just say, a liturgically strong church of high traditional value.

And once, once, I was preaching, and I had a lapel mic on. I put my hand over my mouth, and I coughed, and it went into the lapel mic.

And the speakers in the ceiling echoed out this thunderous cough, which is rather nerve -wracking, and I was a little bit self -conscious about that.

And so I said, sounded like God just coughed. That was a Reformed church, of course. It's the first time I ever saw what

I call the Reformed butt shuffle. What's a Reformed butt shuffle? It's when 250 people shift from one bun to the other bun in unison, as they stare at you with blank, cold eyes, because you dared say, sound like God just coughed.

You know, there's a lot of godly people in that church. But sometimes what we tend to do is raise our own cultural norms to the level of inspiration and holiness.

And then we judge other people by that. And in so doing, we judge them, and we alienate them, and we cause divisions in the body of Christ.

We are not told to do that. We're told to do the opposite of that.

Let me read some scripture on something. Now accept the one who's weak in faith.

This is Romans 14, starting at verse 1. Now accept the one who's weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.

One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only. The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat.

And the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge a servant of another?

To his own master he stands or falls, and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike.

Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. Now, this is about dietary laws.

It's about Sabbath worship. It's not about having different styles of worship in the church.

But it is representative of the issue of Old Testament law and proclamations. And included in that is the entire book of Psalms.

Now, I'm going to admit I'm stretching just a little bit here. But I think a principle is sound.

Let each person be convinced in his own mind. He goes to the word of God, he makes a judgment on what he sees. And what's our obligation to that person with whom we disagree?

Don't pass judgment. He answers to God. We're not to judge the person.

I do not judge Armenians as I think that they should believe in certain ways like I do.

I do not pass judgment on them. For example, Pastor Mike Sasso of Calvary Chapel Eagle here in Idaho.

He is not reformed, I am reformed. We're friends, we love each other. And I actually have this in my head, that I am not there at his church to make converts to Calvinism.

I am not there for that purpose, and I really am not there for that purpose. And even if people were to ask me about things like that at the church,

I'm very reticent to speak about it because I'm not there to convert anybody. It's not my job.

And I'm not there to convert Mike, and I'm not concerned about teaching him the truth.

Okay? I'm not there to teach him about the five points because he needs to hear about it because I've got more wisdom than he does.

What I actually believe is God has called him to a certain position, and it's not my job to judge him in that and try and change him in that.

He's not violating scripture. He's not doing anything ungodly. My attitude is each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.

I believe God's called him to that position. I need to respect what I believe God has called him to do. This is the kind of attitude that we're to have.

It emanates out of Romans 14. It should be proclaimed within the Christian churches, as long as people are not violating the clear teaching of scripture.

But the fact is, the issue in the style of rap music is not clearly proclaimed in scripture as a style that is not to be used.

Where is this in scripture that these men are getting this from? I don't see it in scripture.

You know, wearing an earring means you're not identifying with the godly men of the church. What happens if you go to the church that I loved in Southern California?

I call it the punker church. This pastor drove up on a Harley, he had a black t -shirt on.

He had tattoos. Mods and straights. I'll tell you this way, people who dressed radically differently, some guys had makeup, some guys did not.

Some of the girls had spiked hair and some did not. And this was an unusual church. It was a church for the people that the other churches wouldn't accept them in.

And let me tell you, this is the truth. This is the truth. I went to that church because I met somebody who went there and I was curious.

I got out of my car. I was greeted by the members of that church, left and right, one after another, with love, with welcome.

More times, in 50 feet from getting in my car to the entrance of the church, more people greeted me with warm open arms than I remember saying this to myself.

More people greeted me then, in that 50 feet, than all of the churches

I'd been in, in a similar situation combined. And I loved those people in that church.

You know what they were interested in? Not your earrings, not your tattoos, not your hair color, not what kind of jeans you had.

They're interested in your relationship with Jesus Christ. And I loved that because that's what

I thought it was supposed to be about. What about those godly men? What about these suits, these guys going into a church like that?

How would they feel? You know how they would feel? Welcomed, even though they weren't dressing like everybody else.

But they weren't identifying, or wouldn't be identifying, with the godly men of that church, would they? This is such a relativistic statement.

You're not identifying... You have earrings. You're not identifying yourself with the godly men in the church, really? So all godly men in churches don't have earrings, right?

But with an entirely different culture out there. And the same thing with certain forms of music. I don't want to be controversial or unloving,

Brother Beak, but I believe rap is the death rattle in the throat of a dying culture.

And I think also that we must not use music in the worship of God where the words get lost in the music.

Well, okay. I think there's some reasonableness to that. We should understand what it is we're saying.

I can see that one. That makes sense. But rap is now a death rattle?

Dying culture? What about abortion and homosexuality? How about the rampant promiscuity that's being pushed in culture?

I would think that those are really what you qualify as death rattles. But nevertheless, he goes on.

Now that doesn't mean that rock and roll. That means some songs, you know, that you can waltz to.

That people remember an old tune or identify that particular beat or rhythm or kind of music with something in their past. And so even though they might be singing the right words, the connotation is something entirely different.

He's being pretty reasonable here. Now these guys go on. Let me just read the last sentence from him. Last couple of sentences, a couple, three.

He says, and the same thing I think we should ask when we worship God. Is the music enhancing and strengthening the words that we're singing to the glory of God?

Or is it basically the tune that we're after? So that's what I should say. Well, let me tell you something. There's not much of a tune in rap.

So I don't think it's a tune that they're really after. I think these guys should all listen to some rap for a while.

Some of it's good. Some of it's bad. I like some. I don't like others. Okay. So what?

Let people who are called of God do what God's called them to do. Instead of people sitting in their suits, in panels, talking down and in condemnation about an art form that is being used by people to reach some very difficult to reach people, inner city black people, and reaching them with reformed theology, instead of condemning all of that from the comfort of a panel discussion,

I think what you should do, gentlemen, is dress down a little bit and go out to those streets and try and talk to those people about Jesus.

See what happens and see how you do. Don't invite them to your church where they have to adopt your culture.

Go out like Jesus did into their world, into their culture, where he went and more miracles performed outside the church than inside.

Go out and see. Do that for a while and see what works.

See what is godly. Search the scriptures to see if your judgments are biblical or not.

Don't let your culture and your emotions run rampant over the truths that God may be working through these people to reach a people you're not trying to reach.

I think you should be careful. I think we all should be careful because we have it so good in our comfortable churches where Jesus is the blond -haired, blue -eyed

Caucasian surfer dude in a woman's nightgown. He's a comfortable, blue -eyed guy, makes us feel good.

Of course, he wouldn't do rap, now would he? No, but he did eat with the people and drink with them enough to be called a glutton and a wine -bibber.

He went out with them. He had to be doing that in order to be accused of it. He was with them.

He was with them. Go out and be with them. Then come back in a year and have your same panel discussion and see what happens.