Trinity Oneness Debate: Matt Slick vs Rodney Smith

All right Well, you had a little bit of a technical technical difficulty and it seems to be working fine now tech problem was on Rodney's end and I'm an ex -computer tech.

So I was giving him some pointers and stuff if it continues then what he'll do is turn his camera off and then that should take care of the problem if It continues.

We'll just we'll figure something out, you know, and just bear with us things happen and that's just life All right, so it today is

August 24th 2021 and Rodney and I are on opposite sides of a certain theological issue, but he seems to be a nice guy.

We've agreed to a Debate format of a 10 -minute opening.

I'm going to put it in here and But I have a feeling he's going to be as about as adaptable as I am 10 minute opening 5 -minute response then cross -examination for 10 minutes and Closing statements for 5 minutes each then

Q &A from the audience. I can stay longer. I don't know how long he wants to stay And some what's that?

I can stay as long as long as we're going. Okay Sometimes, you know 10 minutes cross -exam often what happens is for example

I'll just ask you questions for 10 minutes you answer and then it's your turn ask me questions For 10 minutes.

That's one option. The other one is we could just have a 20 minute 30 minute just dialogue back and forth and I'll let you decide which one you want because I'm game with either one

Yeah, I am I normally like back and forth I have a list of questions that might work But you know, we can work that into a dialogue.

That's fine with me So you're the guest you decide which one you want to do back and forth or 10 minutes

X segments Let's do let's do the dialogue. What's that 10 minutes back and forth?

That's fine 20 minutes half hour ish and so he folks he and I are gonna just we're gonna we're gonna time ourselves and If they go over a minute we go over a minute, but it's not a big deal

All right, or if we go under a minute no big deal and I we've agreed that I'm gonna go first okay, so What Rodney once you introduce yourself,

I'll introduce myself and then I'll start Okay, I'm Rodney Smith.

I think I appreciate Matt hosting this and I hope he thanks for giving a

Opportunity for little guys like me to to get in the fight on theological issues.

I hope they keep doing that. I'm One this Pentecostal Christian from well rich lived in San Diego for a long time in Auburn, Alabama right now

I attended Bethel Seminary in San Diego got a Master of Arts there in concentration in biblical studies and Still in there.

I've all but finished my master divinity all but internship. So I'm entering my right now

I've worked with several different Trinity I've had the pleasure of attending and also serving in Several different oneness churches as well as Trinitarian churches, including our product the

International Apostolic Bible College Which is the official Bible College for that oneness Pentecostal Denomination the

Apostolic Assemblies of the faith in Christ Jesus, so I've had some Teaching experience

I have also, currently currently I have a Teaching ministry called the

Word Center online where I teach courses at different Different Bible different different churches.

I'm able to offer biblical education to different churches they're all oneness Apostolic oneness

Pentecostal churches right now, so my my Ministry for reaching out and providing that ministry is

Right now I'm trying to consolidate it all in a website, which is word warriors and it's word warriors dot

CC Okay All right

All right. My name is Matt slick. I'm the founder and director of the Christian apologetics research ministry calm org.

It's head over. I don't know 150 60 million visitors forgot which been doing radio for 16 years and 16 and a half years.

I've been doing apologetics written a lot of books to a lot of debates and Most of you guys know who I am not a big a deal

Matt slick is my real name just in case some people are new and coming in because they sometimes think it's a radio name or or Just some avatar name whatever but that's my real name.

So There you go. I am a devout Trinitarian and I consider no offense meant to anybody who holds it

But I consider oneness to be a damnable heresy that if you Hold to it.

You cannot be a true Christian and if you're consistent in it you when you die, you will face eternal damnation this is my position and We have a discussion on that particular issue later on it might come up might not all right, let me go ahead and begin and like I said, we're going to time ourselves and So I'm just gonna you know, if we go it's supposed to 10 minutes, but if we go 11 not a big deal

We both agree to that. So here it goes All right All right.

So in the context of our debate tonight The God of Christianity is either

Trinitarian or Unitarian he is either three eternal Simultaneous and distinct persons or he is a single eternal person now the

Trinity doctrine is this that there is one God in three simultaneous eternal and distinct persons, so if Mr.

Smith asserts in any way that the Trinity is three gods then he is not arguing against the

Trinity He's not involved in our debate So as I always teach my students

Definitions are important We cannot determine if God is a Trinity of three persons or just one person if we don't define what we mean by the term person

So let me offer definition of what it means as well as some attributes of personhood and if he disagrees

He can offer something better. We can discuss it because this is important We need to know what person is before we can talk about personhood and whether God is one person or three

So personhood is the unique status shared by human beings angels and God that involves the power to think act and value

Traditional theories of personhood stress that persons are substance of rational nature more contemporary theories emphasize the ability to act and have emotions and these often link

Personhood to the ability of use of language and relationship to others now. I agree with this definition

Some of the characteristics of personhood are such things as self awareness awareness of others having a will

Being able to love being able to speak make decisions Aware of other people themselves things like this.

This is the definition of what we have in personhood. So Since I have just already defined

God to some degree. Let me expand on it a little bit There is only one God in all places in all time.

There have been no gods before him There will be no gods after him. He is the one and only uncreated necessary Trinitarian being eternally consisting of three simultaneous and distinct persons

The Father the Son and the Holy Spirit the three persons share the same divine essence, but express different functions in creation neither person derives his substance from either or both of the others in the

Trinity are unity and diversity which are Equally basic and mutually dependent upon one another

I can get involved this a lot more but don't have time in Genesis 126

It says let us make man in our image the us is

Plurality it is not metaphor is not a royal we of Self -declaration nor does it include the angels?

We know this because in Isaiah 44 24 God says that he alone is the maker of all things

So when he said let us make man God first begins his description of himself in the plurality in the plural

The condition continuation of the plural plural nation's nature is all over the Bible I'll just give a few references in Genesis 11 7

God says let us go down and confound our language in Genesis 19 24 It says that Yahweh reigned fire and brimstone from Yahweh out of heaven in Isaiah 48 16 it says from time the time it took place

I was there and now the Lord God has sent me and his spirit in Exodus 6 2 & 3

God spoke further than Moses and said to him. I am the Lord I am Yahweh, and I appeared to Abraham Isaac and Jacob as God Almighty, but by my name

Lord Yahweh, I did not make myself known to him to them yet in John 6 46

Jesus says not that anyone has seen the father except the one who is from God He has seen the father in light of this.

Who are they seeing? Who were they saying in the Old Testament? Who's God Almighty, but as Jesus says is not the father

How would one this theology respond to this and why did the idea that Jesus distinguishes? Between himself between the father and and himself since he is the one person

Who has seen God the father now sometimes when this people and others will say it's an angel or it's a vision

But that's not the case in Exodus 6 2 & 3 because it says God spoke and said I am

Jehovah So the text is very clear Furthermore Jesus said in John 6 38 to 39 for I've come down from heaven

Not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me This is the will of him who sent me that all he's given me

I lose nothing but raise it up on the last day to notice in verse 38 that Jesus said He came down from heaven

He said that he came down from heaven not to do his own will but the will of him who sent him

This must mean that they each have a will before Jesus became flesh

Notice I came down from heaven. I he's identifying himself as that person who was in heaven and came down We know this because Jesus says he came down from heaven to do the will of him who sent him

Notice that Jesus says the I this is very very important. This is identification as a person

Personhood is recognized by its attributes such as being self -aware aware of others could say you and yours and me and mine

Persons have wills can make decisions, etc. This is exactly what we see here In fact in John 14 20,

I don't get into that. We have running out of time now What I presented so far is background information that supports the plurality of God But the

Trinity is not arrived at by only considering these verses or verses like these instead

We arrive at the Doctrine of the Trinity Systematically by looking at the whole of Scripture now, let me repeat this

This is critical. The Doctrine of the Trinity is not arrived at by looking at just a few verses.

It is arrived at by Systematically applying logic to the full revelation of Scripture Therefore there is no single verse that proves or disproves the

Doctrine of the Trinity if my opponent seems to invalidate Validate the Doctrine of the Trinity that he has to do so by reducing the system to something that's false

He'd have to demonstrate that the system I'm going to reveal is false if he does

Great, let's see him do it If he does not do that and the Trinity teaching is maintained and his oneness theology falls by the wayside

So this is how it works We know the Bible said there's only one God in all places in all times But the

Bible says that the Father's called God the Son is called God and the Holy Spirit is called God I can give you all the references.

I've got them Each is all -knowing the Father the Son the Holy Spirit are said to be all -knowing

We have fellowship with each one. We have each one has a will each one is said to love each one speaks each one is

Demonstrating the attributes of what we call personhood If he wants or anyone just wants to say that the

Trinity is not true Then you have to negate these scriptures being supportive of personhood

Because they're called God they have knowledge you have fellowship with them. They have wills they can love and they can speak

These are the attributes of personhood and they're established and expressed by each of them

Particularly when they talk to each other now Does the Bible teach that the

Father is called God along with the Son? Yep, does the Bible teach that the Father Son the Holy Spirit are each all -knowing?

Yep, does it teach that the Bible that the Bible teach that the Father and the Son have separate wills? Absolutely Luke 22 42

Jesus says in the garden. He wants to escape the crucifixion He says not my will but your will be done

Does the Bible say that we're called in the fellowship with the Father the Son the Holy Spirit? Yes, it does. That means that fellowship with Jesus is to occur now

There's a question. How do we have fellowship with Jesus right now? If he's not God in flesh We'll get to that later.

Probably does the father speak to the son and the son speaks to the father? Yes, that's that they do.

This is exactly what we would expect in personhood. This is exactly what person is

See these facts are clearly taught in Scripture This is exactly what we would conclude about the

Trinity if we were to look at these verses We see there's only one God. We see the father speaks the son speaks the

Holy Spirit speaks We see each one has a will they talk to each other not my will but your will these are the facts that we

Trinitarians use to say three persons It will be up to Rodney here to show that these scriptures mean that God is not three persons

And to show why the father's not a Person and or that the son's not a person or that the

Holy Spirit's not a person We see that to negate the idea of them each having wills each speaking Recognizing others have fellowship with them make decisions be rational and all of that But that is what the

Bible teaches about each one and they're each called God. So therefore three persons in one God So he must deny that each one has a will that each is all -knowing that he speaks

Recognizes others in order for his oneness to stand and then say somehow they're all just one person

But that does not make any sense If he ignores my presentation on how the

Trinity's arrived at then my argument stands unrefuted now if I acknowledge my opponent

Acknowledges as he should according to Scripture that the father the son and the Holy Spirit Each speak each have a will each speaks to the other each loves each is all -knowing

Etc. Then he is agreed to exactly how we arrive at the doctrine of the

Trinity I am curious to know how he's going to tackle this.

I'm done Yeah, yeah you have

I think 48 seconds Okay, and all what

I'm gonna do is remove myself from the overall window And if you start breaking up, I'll come back in and show you you're breaking up, but okay, so I'm good.

Okay. All right. Thank you All right. I'm starting my time all right, so I'm not going to be responding to Matt's a statement right now.

I'm gonna give my opening statement. We'll have rebuttals later But man, this is a big topic and so little time

Maybe it'll unfold throughout this this evening but first See, I want to start by Defining biblical the topic of the debate by the way, which is the biblical view is what we talked about in the original

So obviously, you know Matt said I think which is true and he was proving, you know, he was biblical which is biblically true

So I wanted to start off by defining biblical my and the end Trinity and oneness

Which is the biblical view of my position is oneness is the biblical view and not Trinity and by biblical

What I mean is that it is expressly stated or taught in Scripture So by by the biblical view

If a view is truly biblical it would it's what the biblical writers are are

Are seeking to convey that's what their meaning is. For example, if the baptism of Jesus at the baptism of Jesus was

Intended by the writers to to say to show all there is now a plurality or there is a threeness

In God or to convey that message that Father Son and Holy Spirit are three persons in one

God Then that would be biblical and a biblical illustration a biblical presentation but it actually it's that that scene is you know meant to show us that this is

God's Son and Listen to him So a couple examples would be a bit express biblical statement

Christ died to save sinners Christ died according to the strict scriptures was raised according to the scriptures to the scriptures

And then a biblical allusion such as Matthew 28 19 Baptized in the name of the

Father Son and Holy Spirit We see an axe 238 baptized in the name of Jesus and throughout the book of Acts baptized in the name of Jesus So we can deduce from those two statements that the

Apostles understood that that There was one name Father Son, Holy Spirit shared the name of Jesus.

So I Do not believe this is how I define biblical by the way, and I do not

I think that in order to make something inviolable a test of Orthodoxy you have to be a true

Christian. It should be something that the Bible explicitly states Explicitly presents and teaches.

All right. Now Matt does find the Trinity for us already I'm gonna have to find it a little bit myself one one

God in three persons He said now They're the

Father Son and Holy Spirit There is only one God The Father Son and Holy Spirit are each that one

God and the Father is not the Son the Son is not the Spirit They're each individual separate. The Holy Spirit is not the

Father or the Son. So there is that necessary distinction Oneness on the other hand what

I believe is there is one God who is personal indivisible Omnipotent. He's not limited by space and time who for our sakes manifested himself in visible form and In you know 2 ,000 years ago in the person of Jesus Christ in human form

Note the similarities between these views Trinitarianism is there's one God Father Son Holy Spirit or each

God but Father Son Holy Spirit are not one another personally distinct In in oneness father.

There is one God as well Father Son Holy Spirit are each God But then they're not understood to be distinct in their persons in their identity

So God is one in his in his person so I will demonstrate that the biblical view is that Solely based on the presentation of Scripture and Accounting for the totality of biblical revelation

This is something else. This is something else later Part part of the the definition of biblical.

I'm all out of order is that it must not contradict something else within the

Scripture so the Trinity What and that's oneness. Yeah, I wouldn't well demonstrate oneness is biblical

It's expressly presented in Scripture and it does not contradict anything in Scripture and it accounts for the totality of biblical revelation on the other hand the doctrine of the

Trinity is Derived from biblical statements and systematically pieced together from the teachings and statement of Scripture However, where Trinitarianism violates the

Scripture is when it extends beyond Scriptural statements

Based on inferences drawn from the text into formulations and affirmations of statements which are not found anywhere in the text

So namely that God is one being yet three co -equal co -eternal persons that is not found anywhere in the biblical text

Father Son and Holy Spirit are not one another father is not the son son is not the spirit That presentation is that it that statement or idea is not presented anywhere in the biblical text

So that is where the debate lies on that third part Where let's see if if biblical

If if okay skip that so God is one in his person

There are vast problems with it with the doctrine of the Trinity I can only go into a few of them, but the

God in Scripture is presented as a person now God himself the one who created all things alone by himself in Isaiah 44 24 is a person

Um, let's see he He said I Am the

I am Yahweh who makes all things who stretch forth the heavens alone who spreads abroad the earth by myself

It's the same God in 40 Yahweh in 43 Isaiah 43 10 through 11

You are my witnesses my servant whom I have chosen That you may know and believe me and understand that I am he before me

There was no God formed neither shall there be after me. I even I Yahweh and Yahweh beside me.

There is no Savior the same one in in Isaiah 45 12 he says

I Have made the earth and created man upon it. I my hand stretch out the heavens.

So there is personhood in God himself Yahweh this one creator who is alone by himself

Has to be God proper if he's three persons This is all three persons, but the alone the one who created alone without anyone by him is a person

By using I me and all of these personal pronouns. He's indicating that he is personal

There is let's see Proofs There are some difficulties with the doctrine of the

Trinity as far as Yeah Yeah, when they when there's proofs about Yahweh raining down fire and brimstone from Yahweh in heaven or in the baptism of Jesus if Those are used to you see

Father Son and Holy Spirit coming down like a dove there's an assumption that each of them are spatially located that the

Sun is only in Jesus when they're all supposed to be co -equal co -eternal and Those passages are completely explained by God's omnipresence

They take the Relationship between the Father and the Son and in the incarnation and apply it to the eternal

Godhead when God says in Hebrews 1 quoting 2nd 1st 2nd

Samuel 7 I will be I will be to him a father. He will be to me a son It assumes the apprent preeminence of the father

The father is said to be created to create through the son the father sends the son in Acts in John 6 38 and 39 if the father sends the son in John 6 37 and 38 why is one and and and Jesus came not to do his will but the will of him who sent me.

Why is one person of the Trinity? So Submitting to the other person the

Trinity why is one sending the other when John when Jesus ascends? Why does he said to only be ascending to the father and not to the whole

Trinity? There should be where's the Holy Spirit and the and God and the second person who is eternal in heaven as well

There is a duality in scripture that proves oneness. For example in John 1 1 there's the word the word is with God The word is

God the word becomes flesh. There's no mention of the Holy Spirit there in Revelation 22 22 21 through 22

There's the throne of God and of the Lamb and his servant shall see so shall serve him in Revelation Revelation 21 22 to 23 his servant shall see him and see his face

But the synonym, there's a vast synonymity that proves oneness

We've already seen that in Revelation, but in Isaiah 9 6 is a child born and he has a dual identity

He's a son that's given and he is the everlasting father When Let's see.

The the Spirit of God is called the Spirit of Christ and Christ in you

The Spirit of the Son the Lord is that Spirit in 1st Corinthians 2nd

Corinthians 3 17 in 1st Corinthians 15 the last Adam Christ is made a life -giving spirit in Acts 238 we received the

Holy Spirit Galatians 5 16 We walk in the Spirit, but in Colossians 2 6 as you have therefore have received

Jesus Christ So walk in him. So in John chapter 14, there's a huge my last thing of synonymity here

Jesus says in John 14 7 the father If you had would have known me you would have known my father.

Also. You have now both seen him and known him in verses 15 through 26 of John 14

Jesus says I will pray to the father. He will send you another comforter and he says I will not leave you orphans

I will come to you and The world cannot receive him because it neither sees him nor knows him and his disciple

Judas not as scary asked How you will you manifest yourself to the to us and not to the world? So he knew what he was talking about manifesting

Jesus himself coming back as he said in Matthew 28 20 I am with you always the

Son Jesus ascends to heaven and becomes omnipresent in his disciples But that's described as the

Father and the Son in us as well as Jesus coming to us. So in in John 14 a little bit later

Jesus says that the He answers Judas question if anyone loves me

My father will love him and we will come to him and make our home with him So there's this synonymity in if in in first Corinthians 12 there's the same spirit the

Spirit gives gifts to the body in Ephesians for Christ gives gifts to the body and Ephesians in first Corinthians 12

God sets up the leaders in the church in Ephesians 4 it is

God who does it and my very last point here because I'm a minute over Ephesians 4 6 It says there is a one

God who is above all and John 3 30 through 31 John the

Baptist says the one who is from heaven speaking of Jesus is Above all so there is a synonymity that shows that Jesus is the

Father manifested in the flesh He is the visible expression the visible image of the invisible

God and he is and so that proves the synonymity proves that the second half or that the

Third part of the Trinity the Father is not the Son is not true. And one is is true There we go, sorry muted myself are you

I guess assume you're done right I hear you now, okay All right.

So now I'm gonna do a five -minute response Then you'll do a five -minute response and then we're gonna just do a dialogue back and forth.

All right All right, let me put myself on this full screen here. Let's see.

I think I'd do it this way and then Put on my thing for five minutes ish

He went over that's fine. We already agreed folks. That's fine to do. We didn't we don't care about that really

We're just using this as guides. Okay Here we go So he defined what is biblical

I I'm grateful for that. He said expressly stated or taught in Scripture And it must not contradict anything in Scripture.

I totally agree He said Trinitarians violate this when it goes beyond the Scripture. We don't go beyond the

Scripture And you'll see that namely that God is one being in three distinct simultaneous persons that's called begging the question

He's assuming his position to be true We have yet to establish if it is or is not But he's of course is going to do that just as I'm going to beg the question by assuming my positions be true

All right, and he said that the doctrine of the Trinity is not presented anywhere in in In the text and he says where namely that God is one being in three distinct simultaneous person

This is a mistake on his part You see it works both ways

The Bible doesn't say God is one person if we are required to have a theological

Statement to support a particular theological view the way the person the opponent wants it

Well, then I can say show me that the Bible says there's only one person It doesn't say that any place in Scripture God is one person doesn't say that now it says

God is one in Exodus or excuse me in Exodus 6 4 but the word one a hard is a composite unity.

So that's not a good place to go. But nevertheless So that that that argument works against him

He said that if there's a definitive Trinitarian statement to be biblical already addressed that I'm going through my notes

He said the Father Son Holy Spirit and each are the one God now

We're we're short on time. So he really can't explain what he means by that, but we Trinitarians don't say that But some do that.

They aren't there. There are the one God we would say that the three persons comprise a totality of one

God I'm not sure if he understands maybe you can find this out divine simplicity

Perichoresis Economic Trinity and ontological Trinity because these are necessary to understand if you can debate the

Trinity Along with when you debate as we talked about Jesus later the hypostatic Union and the

Cunicot you idiom atom Which are necessary to understand who Christ is and what he's done in totality as they relate to the doctrine of the

Trinity but nevertheless He acknowledged personhood by saying that they persons

Say I and me use personal pronouns and that in that God is acknowledging that he's personal

That's what he said that God's acknowledging that he's personal by using those kind of person of pronouns good

Because this will become very important later on when we discuss personhood of Christ person who the father their

Relationship because if I can show you that there's at least two persons in the Godhead Which I don't affirm is only two but at least two oneness is falsified oneness is proven to be false

So I'll be using that statement later He said that they the Trinitarians take a relationship between the father and the son and applied to the eternal

God. Yes, we do. That's correct it's refreshing to at least find out that Rodney here has

Some a much better understanding of the Trinity and my last one this opponent who said that the

Trinity was three gods and that he knew more about what I believe than I do and So Rodney's not doing that.

I'm grateful for that He Assumes the preeminence of the father this has to do with the economic

Trinity don't know if he knows about that the father created to the son This is just more doctrine of the Trinitarian Extent which is necessarily true because it's the father who sent the son from all eternity

You have to exist in order to be sent. It's a real simple thing. We'll get to that later the father sent the son

Why did Jesus not do his own will but the will of the father? That's a good discussion, why would he do that?

because If he came to do the will the father who sent him then that and he said he was

John 638 He came down from heaven to do the will of him not to do his own

But the will of him who sent me you have to exist in order to be sent and he sent from heaven

Logically necessarily means that the pre -incarnate Christ was in heaven with the father and was sent by the father

And that's and since he already admitted These are the terms of personhood because I've used

I me and pronouns that this is what God designates as person Then we have a perfect example that by his own admission of that very thing and let me give my one last thing here

He said it will not leave you alone. I will come to you reference John 15 26 Rodney you misspoke

There where Jesus says I will come to you in reference of the Holy Spirit No, you said

I will send you the Holy Spirit But not I will come to you. That's just uh, we often you know

It happens we misspeak Sometimes we correct ourselves later, but there you go.

There's my five -minute response. You're on All right Okay, let's see

Oh five minutes, right Minutes All right

Matt's opening statement. He said that oneness was a damnable heresy. You cannot believe it. You cannot be a true

Christian and believe that Then if that's the case, then we would need to Well have a statement like that in Scripture.

You can't believe what is what is one is believe I showed that oneness believes everything that Trinity believes that there is one

God And who and the Father Son and the Holy Spirit are each God Except for the part that the three are distinct persons rather than the three being the one personal

God So we would need to have a statement of that last That last statement unless you believe that Jesus is not the

Father The Holy Spirit is not the Father if you confuse such as in the Athanasian Creed, you know, unless you

Affirm this and separate all of the persons then then you're anathema He Matt defined personhood and I agree with it all of his definition of personhood think act value love relate have a will

Now he said the Trinity is one God unity and diversity eternally consisting of three persons

That's what the the hope that the the scriptures teach that there is one God and that one

God is a person So if he consists of three persons Then what about you know in Isaiah 44 24

God created all things alone by himself and in the New Testament We see the father creating by the son.

Well, why does the father get credit for what the son is creating? Rather what we have is a

God who creates by himself who that God is one person and we can have a relationship With God we can relate to him and I have our relationship

I would like to hear what Matt's view is of us relating to God himself as the totality of God Is he a person or do we have to relate to or do can we only relate to the individual persons of the

Trinity? Let's see So the

I affirmed that the Omnipresent Spirit of God God is omnipresent spirit.

He is He is eternal he is invisible I don't think I said that but he has made himself visible and so he has

Manifested himself in the angel of the Lord in the Old Testament. He's come in the flesh in the New Testament. He's visible

He's knowable. He's experiencing his world and he creates through that world. That's how the son can say

Have said to the father is the the father creates through the son That's why the father gets credit because the father in John 14 17 3

Jesus said the father is the only true God and Eternal life is knowing the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent in and in first John 1 1 2 3 3

John says there is this is the this is eternal life that they may wait that This you are in him who is true and in his son

Jesus Christ This is the true God internal life. That's a different. That's a different part in first John, but there is a duality

There's a father and son in duality all throughout scriptures Where you know father son and Holy Spirit the tri the tri formula there of who

God is it still fits within oneness? Because God is a Holy Spirit. The father is holy.

The father is a Holy Spirit Jesus was glorified and became a life -giving spirit.

So I addressed Yahweh Genesis 1924 in my opening statement

However, when Yahweh is raining down fire from Yahweh That can be just the language of the it's coming down from language is not exactly exact like that from Yahweh in heaven

Solomon's called resembles people to Solomon But it shows God's omnipresence

Isaiah 48 16 Yahweh Has sent me and his spirit Okay, the

Lord Yahweh has sent me in a spirit who's being sent here if they want to say that it's Jesus if Matt wants To say that it's Jesus or the second person the

Trinity being sent in the New Testament The father sends him and here it's Yahweh God and the

Lord Yahweh and his spirit So is the Lord Yahweh one or is it the three? Sending him or is the

Lord Yahweh the father and the spirit who is sending the son? There's a little bit of confusion there. Yes. No one's seen the father

Because the father is invisible. He is everything that is untouchable or unknowable about God, but he reveals himself and that's how we have

God manifested to his creation called the word in John 1 and Manifested as Jesus Christ who is

God the Father and the Holy Spirit one person it came not to do his own will Because he speaks

Jesus speaks as a human who is sent into the world Yes, God sent himself into the world, but he also became a real man 2nd

Timothy 2 5 There's one God and one mediator between God and man the man Christ Jesus God is

God the eternal spirit and God is the begotten Son the human man and Again, there's that duality of who

God is invisible made visible not a plurality of persons but a plurality of expression especially a duality more so than a triad than a

You know, they're a threefold presentation. That's my

That's your time Yes, sir, that's my time. All right, were you done because if you want to go a little bit more that's fine with me

Yeah one one more point The Matt's last point was okay

No single verse disproves the Trinity because it's arrived at systematically and so disproving the system would be essential to prove it false

But if I don't disprove the system then oneness is false when you know, that's not necessarily true

It could be not inability to disprove the system. There might be inability on the same grounds to disprove my system that The Father Son and Holy Spirit all shared are all the one

God or it's the same identity synonymous. It's the synonymity Of person that makes

God one person manifested in three ways however, when Oneness would not have to as Matt said disprove personhood because we believe in personhood

But when you have three persons expressed the Father Son and Holy Spirit are persons and they are God it actually takes a one step further to it takes another leap that is imaginative speculation to to postulate that just because the

There's one God the Father is God and he's a person the Son is God and he's a person the Holy Spirit is God And he's a person

You have to take that other leap that is not taught in Scripture to say that now

These are three distinct person The Father is not the Son the Son is not the Spirit the Spirit is not the Father when the scriptures clearly present a synonymity

That Jesus is the Father Jesus I will come to you on 14 and The Spirit is the

Spirit of Christ is Jesus in us Jesus in his disciples with us always to the end of the age

Sure, no problem that actually gave me more ammo I appreciate that Yeah So I'm gonna

I'm gonna just start in because what you said You said that whoops

There we go, so you said three persons He said you know that each is a person, but you say they're really one person

Are you saying that each is a person each is a person and all one person? So three persons is one person

No, they're not three persons they're all Nothing says that there are nothing in Scripture says that the

Father Son and Holy Spirit are three persons They are all persons, but they are all the one person of God who is a person

Isaiah 44 I lost it already 44 24 He uses impersonal prone.

He or his personal singular pronouns of himself He is a singular person the God who creates everything alone by himself

Yeah, I was you know does Bible ever say God is one person The Bible says that God is one and there would be no there would be no

Let's see Let me just continue there there would be there there would be no

Reason that a an impersonal or a non -personal let's say being who consists of three persons would use personal pronouns of himself

So in Isaiah 44 43 45 that I read in my opening statement the

Singular personal pronouns over and over and over again indicates a single human person now there are also you know the the singular verbs with With used with Elohim in in in Genesis chapter 1 and chapter 2

Genesis 1 27 Elohim he created and it's singular.

So it's a singular personal is God A he is the Elohim who created is that the Trinity is that one person because it is a single person

It is a he a single personal pronoun You said there must be a distinct statement for the

Trinity to be true and you said, you know One God had three distinct persons. Does that rule also apply to you?

Does the Bible have to say God is one person Well, yeah, it does and the

Bible doesn't the Bible needs to expressly Expressly state it or teach it or present, you know present it does

Does the Bible since the Bible doesn't say God is one person then you can't use your assertion that it has to have a specific statement

Can you? yeah, I would stick by that definition and I see what you mean and I and The by it works if the

Bible never States that God is one person and the Bible never states that God is three persons then either both are possibilities and you cannot excommunicate the other and make it a test of faith or The normal use of the language as far as there is one

God and he is personal Then, you know the normal the normal use of the language if there's some

One God who's three persons would be something that's not like anything ever known in it in the history of the world until you know, the

New Testament or Post -new testament Aaron, I would say not in the New Testament, but the doctrine of the

Trinity The formulations of the church councils when

Jesus walked on the earth was he one person or more than one person Jesus is one person.

Okay So he was one person and the one person said in John 6 38 for I That's the person talking have come down from heaven not to do my own.

Well what the will of him who sent me John 6 38 so the person of Jesus said

I Have come down from heaven did the person of Christ come down from heaven?

Yeah, I would say the The person of Christ Christ is a human person

Well Christ to leave that the doctrine of the Trinity believes that as well I won't ask my question right now because you just asked yours wouldn't be polite.

But if Jesus Jesus is God there is one personal

God and he's manifested in the flesh and he comes down from heaven for example in I In Luke 1 35, it's the

Holy Spirit who comes down so There's a synonymity there between which one is coming down in in the incarnation in John 1 it's the word is man is manifested in the flesh is

But you're not answering the question really comes flesh and dwells among us

So Jesus pre -exists his birth as a divine person that divine person is the one true

God But my question was You said Jesus is a person

I've even asked you if Jesus has two natures yet because that's important I don't know if you affirm the hypostatic

Union, but he says I have come down from heaven Jesus the person Do you agree that Jesus the person said

I? Came down from heaven Yes, I agree. He came down from heaven as God No being so when it says

I've come down from heaven And not to do my own will but the will of the Father who sent him so he was in heaven

It was sent by the Father and that's the person of Christ pre -incarnate Christ, right? So that's two persons in heaven right there, right?

well You have what you have in this duality. You have God the omnipresent Spirit and God his expression

So the word the logos the image of the invisible God You have

God the uninvisible the unknowable the Unreachable the untouchable the made visible made knowable

Interacting with his creation. So that is God himself God's God's expression of his one person.

That's what it says in Hebrews 1 3 that the Sun is the the brightness of his glory

He's the expressed image of his person so this is the person of the one true

God manifested in the flesh God came down from heaven and Did not cease being

God in heaven at the same time the same thing Trinitarians believe about the second person of the Godhead of the Trinity But yet he walked on earth at the same time in submission as a human man

So sometimes he speaks as a man and sometimes he speaks as God as God That's another heresy

Called Nestorianism, but I asked you You know Because you're giving long answers to simple questions

But he said I've come down from heaven you said Jesus was a person So he's speaking as a person who was sent by the

Father. So isn't that two persons? Yeah, so What I what

I was saying is that Go back to the beginning, you know the first scripture that I used in my in my in my statements that One God created everything alone by himself in Colossians 1 in Hebrews 1

God creates everything by his son and But you're not answering the question

I'm asking is that two persons in heaven at the same time I'm answering your question.

The answer is either yes or no. God created everything by his son who is the image of God? So the son is himself

God created everything by himself and the image of God He expressed himself as the angel of the

Lord and in the flesh as Jesus Christ That is he himself and it is a true human person.

So you can say I It is possible to say two persons you can say two persons

If those two inner if the father who is one is an eternal person

Manifests himself in a way in the flesh and now that human person 2 ,000 years ago has a new personality

Because what I believe is that Jesus, I mean God took on himself humanity in its totality and has a

Relationship and interaction with that man, but yet that man's the man Christ Jesus Transcendent identity is

Jesus is God himself So now God for the last 2 ,000 years who was only omnipresent spirit

Now exists as eternal omnipresent spirit and begotten human being simultaneously

Are you familiar with a hypostatic Union? Yes And that is just for the listeners that Jesus is one person

With two distinct natures not God the father in dwelling him. That's not a static

Union I have a static Union says the one person has two natures

And that the attributes of both natures are ascribed to the single person that's called a communicatio idiom atom

It's fancy. It sounds impressive, but that's what it is. So do you agree with that? Yeah, yeah,

I agree with Let me see, I think Okay So then

Let's see. Yeah one I read an article you're at one of your articles on The Trinity or did

Jesus always exist? so you said something about Jesus he obviously I'm I was saying saying obviously that he speaks as Divine he speaks with the vine prerogatives.

Sometimes other times he speaks In a very human way, so your examples were as low,

I'm with you always to the end of the age Matthew 28 20 and I am thirsty. So those would be two different ways of speaking that Jesus Jesus is both human and divine

Okay, good. You said What will the mask is? Jesus in heaven right now

Yes, so is Jesus a single person in heaven Yes, Jesus is a single

Jesus is Jesus who was God manifest in the flesh first Timothy 316 2 ,000 years ago

Ascended to the Father Okay, and he is now Colossians 3 hidden with Christ in God wrote of John 1 18

He is in the bosom of the Father and first Chris and and first Timothy chapter 6

He is the blessed and only post and potentate who only has who alone has immortality Dwelling in inapproachable light whom no man has seen nor can see so no man can see the

Father No man has seen God at any time but What is visible of God?

He has manifested himself or been made known in the person of Jesus Christ So right now

Jesus is a person in heaven with two natures Right. Yes. Yes, and I do

There's something Something that occurred at his glorification for example

John's states when Jesus said that Whoever believes in me as a scripture I said out of his belly will float or heart will flow rivers of living water

John says this he spoke of the Holy Spirit who was not yet poured out because Jesus was not yet glorified and when

Jesus So Jesus said he ascended up into his head into heaven and now this localized Person of Jesus who was

God in the flesh could now sit could now be with all of his people always he could sit he

Promised them that he is going away. He is coming back. He said I will not when he said

I will sit I will pray the father. He will send you another helper the spirit or truth. He said I will not leave you orphans

I will come to you So there is a synonymity there where he's saying I am coming back in first in first Corinthians 15

Paul says the first Adam was became a living soul the last the last Adam was made a life -giving spirit.

So there was a glorification in which uh the father and the and the son

Are able to operate both of them as the as the Holy Spirit in John 14. Jesus said

We will come to him and make our home with him speaking of the Holy Spirit indwelling us Well, I got one last question.

I know you want to ask me a question But here's my last question for you because I know I've been asking a lot. So the same person who on earth

Jesus talked to the father Who had a will separate than Jesus that mean Jesus is a person

Talking to the father who has a will which you admitted is designation of personhood He was sent by the father you have to exist or to be sent by That's that's in heaven, which is simultaneous personhood

And he's in heaven with the father now Would you is that last part true? So yes, then you are are just repeating what we say as trinitarians

Right, we're Repeating what you say as trinitarians that the uh about the second person of the trinity he is eternal

He is god. He is omnipresent. He is invisible. He is almighty all -knowing omniscient He is a person and he came down and was manifested in the flesh

And was a human person who had needs to pray eat sleep and he could die bleed all of those things

But yet he could raise himself up from the dead So everything that you believe or trinitarians believe about the second person of the trinity

We just have one person of god who could become a human manifested in the flesh and at the same time not cease to be the eternal omnipresent all omniscient almighty spirit

Yeah, you contradicted yourself. You said he's the same person who walked on on earth.

That's jesus Who spoke to the father? That's a person That's two persons

The father is divine. Jesus is divine You just falsified your own your own belief system.

You just showed it to be false That's not what I said. I didn't say well I said that um god is one person

He's one person and he was manifested in the flesh as a human person So now over the last 2 000 years there is one god the father um

The father is the only true god in um in uh, john 17 3 in a lot of places god is referred to as the father and and one man

Who is the mediator between god and christ but god is there's one god and one lord god now exists as eternal spirit and as begotten human being now resurrected and glorified human being

Simultaneously god exists. So this is this is called as two modes of existence God is completely of god.

The one personal god is completely other than space time I think you've even said that god is not in space um

Well, he's outside of space. He's not limited by space and time but yet he entered creation In a very real very experiential experiential way and actually was born as a human person

So we have a divine person and a human person who are the same god But yet that god that jesus was glorified together with god to where they can be called a he the two

Jesus christ manifested in the flesh And the eternal father to whom he prayed could be referred to In revelation 21 as he god and the lamb is a he his servants will

Will will serve him they will see his face the lamb and and he and the god are called the light of the new jerusalem and so forth

In john 6 38 jesus says that he came down from heaven The person of jesus came down from heaven, which means he had to pre -exist

As the son in order to do that And so if god is one person, how is it possible then?

That jesus the person was sent by the person of the father because jesus is not my own will but his will

So he's saying he existed simultaneously with the father before the incarnation

As two persons at the very least right there. How do you refute that john 6 38?

uh, well, that's exactly what I believe in the the the um jesus pre does pre -exist is is birth in bethlehem

As the one true god so in a in a true sense Now there is there are differences.

I think you noted this early I'm, not sure it might be something else you you noted a difference within oneness theology, but some would say that god came down in The person of jesus christ so not all of god is incarnate

But god but the incarnate jesus christ the the man is completely god and um

But you're refuting yourself well also So if if jesus is god in the flesh

Then god sends himself into the world. Yahweh sends yahweh, but yet he is born

As a human person he is born as jesus christ now Um in john 1 it talks about the word the logos was with god and was god

Um, jesus is referred to In colossians 1 as the first born over all creation and in hebrews 1

God makes everything uh by Or through the son

And um, it's the son who upholds everything by his powerful word So there's the relationship between the father and son there revealed in in john 1 hebrews 1 and colossians 1

It this express image of who god is the brightness of his glory is

God himself as the power of god That upholds everything by the word of his power is said to be to be the case of the son

So as the as or as of this logos this word Um, so whether some apply son to the pre -incarnate

Manifestation of god the angel of the lord the logos and someoneness believers don't i'm okay with with either way

Hebrews it seems to apply son retrospectively to that manifestation of the lord, but that the lord yahweh the one god made visible is the

He's in such a close relationship with with the father with the the one god that he is that one god the power of god the creative Work of god comes through him comes through his hands.

So that Expression of god is the one true god. There is one person and that logos was made flesh 2000 and over the past 2000 years ago.

God is now a divine person and a human person Um, but Mike I was just saying out of john 638

For I that's jesus the person came down from heaven not to do my own will

Will as a designation of personhood, but the will of him who sent me that's another person

That means it's the father. So we have the pre -incarnate existence of two divine persons in heaven

That just proves that oneness is false Well, it it it doesn't it proves that jesus came down from heaven as he who is above all so a couple different scriptures

Review what you just said there and um, I mentioned earlier in Ephesians 4 it says

God the there is one god the father who is above all in john 3 30

And 31 john the baptist said he who is from heaven is above all there's a synonymity between synonymity between He who is from heaven jesus christ in the flesh and the father.

They are both said to be above all um, so Jesus said that he came down from heaven because he is god come down from heaven in john chapter 10

Also, he talks that he elaborates more on this not to do his will but as a as a human

He is submitted to the father's will so while he is found in while he while he is, um,

While he is walking the earth as a human as a as a man He is submitted.

He is sent into the world. He is in the world having been sent into the world as god coming into the World he is now in the world to do

His own not his own will but the father's that is during the incarnational period and that will was to lay down his life in john 10

Um, I probably can't find it real quick to get the right words But in in john 10 jesus talks about this same thing and then lands on synonymity again.

He says that um, Uh verse 17 my father loves me because I lay down my life that I may take it up again

No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of myself I have power to lay it down and I have power to take it up this command

I have received from my father So how is he receiving commands from the father and receiving?

Um, what is it submitting to the father's will as a divine person? No, he's doing it as a human person he continues, um

My last point here is uh, let's see verse 27 my sheep hear my voice verse 28.

I give them eternal life And no one will snatch them out of my hand My father who has given them to me is greater than all and no one is able to snatch them out of my father's hand

I and my father are one so he He he illustrates what the synonym he starts off with this section that I laid on my life

I have a command from the father. It's implied to do his will and then

Um, he goes to a little synonym synonymity of no one can snatch them out of my hand No one can snatch the people that the father has given me out of the father's hand

Uh for he is greater than all I am my father are one He is the father manifested in the flesh

You didn't refute, uh the point I made out of john 6 38 That's it like three times and you go different directions, but you're not addressing it.

But nevertheless, do you have some questions for me? Yeah, um Why so how um, let me see if if uh

One divine person is sending another divine person in the world, um co -equal co -eternal

Why is the father sending the son and where is the holy spirit in all of that? To the son and where is the holy spirit?

Why is the father sending the son? Uh, you're not familiar with the ontological or economic trinity doctrines.

Are you? Yes, right. You are I want to hear your answer The ontological trinity is that the three persons share the same divine essence

The ontological trinity says there's a difference of function within the created order within the created order

Within the godhead where the father sent the son and the father and the son sent the holy spirit is only the son who became

Incarnate and as it says in ephesians 1 4 that he chose us in him before the foundation of the world which designates

That the son of christ was eternally existing So why would one divine person send this the another divine person?

Because that's what they chose to do And the holy spirit's job is to bear witness of the of jesus and so he doesn't bear witness of himself

But of christ john 14 26 john 15 26, so that's why we don't see as much about him

Okay, and and um, so How how did that um order come about is there anything in scripture that tells us how that divine order was decided as far as the father, um

Being the one who gives commands to the second person of the trinity And the holy spirit is sort of subservient to just testify of the other two persons

Is that in scripture how that was decided and ordered? No, god doesn't reveal his secret eternal counsel to us in that regard

Okay, very good um Let's see. So is is god a person?

He is referred to as uh the singular as a person and in the plural as three persons, yes

Okay, so is that four persons or or what? No, we don't say one plus three We say that god

He says let us make man in our image. He's become like one of us That's how god speaks about himself in the plural that he made

Adam and eve and in isaiah 44 24. He does it all alone So god has revealed himself in the plural context

And within the doctrine of the trinity, we absolutely would say that god speaks as one person and then god also speaks as three persons

Well, okay. So how can god speak as one person if he is not one person if he is really three persons?

How could he use? pronouns of I myself and me that is uh Applied to the totality of god whom you would say is the trinity.

How could he who is three persons speak as one person? Are you familiar with a doctrine called perichoresis?

Okay. What is that? Just really I mean I want to make sure you know the interdwelling of the persons right the interpenetration interdwelling of the person.

So very good a little bit of Yeah, i'll let you go ahead and answer first. No, it's it's okay.

So No, I just asked if you knew about that in the perichoresis folks The members of the godhead inter dwell interpenetrate each other in what's called the divine simplicity

So because god is three persons in one divine simple essence who interdwells all the members interdwell each other

Then we would see sometimes god speaking as one person and sometimes god speaking in a plurality which is exactly what we see in scripture okay, so um when uh

When god is speaking of one person as one person Who is he is is it the trinity?

Is it the whole of god representing all three persons or? You know Is it one person representing the rest of them?

I'd have to look at each context of a verse that you might quote for that to determine that What about isaiah 44 24 who's speaking?

Uh, well, let's go take a look at it That says the lord that's yahweh and that's the name of god, right?

Your redeemer and the one who formed you from the womb I yahweh and the maker of all things written out the heavens by myself.

I spreading out there all alone. Uh So the one we say god is one being one thing perfectly consistent with trinitarianism

Okay. So this is god speaking god as in the entire trinity Or is it one person because it uses personal pronouns and that was your definition of a person?

Well, we don't know. Uh, I don't but I don't like to do is not go beyond what the scripture says It just says yahweh says that and I just say that's who yahweh is speaking

That's it It doesn't say it's the father who speak of the son or the holy spirit because I can show you some stuff in the old testament where it must be

The pre -incarnate christ who's speaking and not uh, not god the father Who is yahweh?

Okay, so this could be god who this could be god speaking as one person then Yeah, he's speaking as one person as I says god does the trinitarian god does and then he also speaks

Uh in plurality let us make man uh yahweh ran fire and brimstone from yahweh out of heaven or you go to To amos 4 10 11 god speaking

And he says I I killed your young your young men by the sword. I cause a stench to rise up your nostrils

Yet you have not returned to me declares yahweh. I overthrew you as god overthrew sodom and gomorrah

These are the verses. I'll actually quote the joe of his witnesses. I just read them And then they usually say are you trying to show me the trinity out of that?

They get a trinity just by reading these things the plurality of god in the old testament Well, I see god speaking as one person and I see an omnipresent god.

So when you have god yahweh on earth um raining down fire from yahweh on heaven or Um there, you know god is in all those places visible and invisible

So springboard from isaiah 44 24 then who is the creator who created all things alone by himself yahweh

This is that father son and spirit It just says here yahweh. That's who the creator is and god says he is

I am that's the name of god I would say god the trinity is as uh, yahweh Not jesus, but yahweh

Okay, and so in john 1 3 where it says all things were made by the word or through the word colossians 1 15 through 17.

Yep. Yep Yeah, all things were made through him hebrews one that by him by him or through him he made the world

So who is he who made the worlds through him? Why is one getting credit for it through the other one?

Because the trinity is true Because that's just how you would think if the trinity was true Jesus is the one or the son is the one the pre -incarnate christ is the one through whom and by whom all the created order

Is is made yahweh identifies himself as the plurality as well as a singularity

These are exactly the kind of things we go to to help demonstrate the plurality of god As also a singularity, which is what the trinity is.

It's exactly what you're doing exactly what we do Yeah, and why is there a duality? Why is the holy spirit not mentioned in those passages in the new testament as a third person in creation?

because the holy spirit is the one who Bears witness of christ and if you go to to genesis chapter one says the holy spirit was brooding

Hovering over creation the holy spirit is there when god Spoke that's the word and the holy spirit was brooding.

There's a trinity right there So, how do you know that god is the father? And not the whole trinity

Well depends on the context of the verse you might want to look at like exodus 6 2 and 3 What does that say?

Does it say the father created by his word? No, it says uh God spoke further to moses said

I am yahweh Okay, and I appeared to abraham isaac and jacob as god almighty

But by my name yahweh, I did not make myself known to them So that's god speaking.

I would agree. I think it's god speaking But he says he appeared To abraham isaac and jacob, but not as god almighty.

I mean as god almighty, excuse me, right? so So the next question is speaking of speaking about uh, since we're speaking about the father um

And the holy spirit in creation. We're speaking about the the holy spirit and where is he in creation? um

So in matthew, well in the baptism of jesus in in matthew mark in all the gospels

The uh, the holy spirit comes down upon jesus And um, so you agree with that i'm sure

Yes, incidentally in job 33 4 it says the spirit of god made made job. So the spirit's involved in creating also

Okay And um luke 4 and mark Luke 4 1 and mark 1 12.

Jesus is said to have received the holy spirit. Yeah, of course done. Um, been

Driven into the wilderness or the holy spirit led into the wilderness. So we see he's filled with led into the wilderness driven into the wilderness um in acts 10 38, it says that uh,

God anointed jesus of nazareth with the holy spirit and he went around performing miracles Right in matthew 12 8 12 28

Jesus says but if if I cast out demons by the spirit of god, then the kingdom of god has come

Uh to you Um in another place, I think he says finger of god now in john So why then in john 10 38 jesus says the father in him the father who dwells in him?

No, not john 10 30. Yeah John john 10 38 jesus refers to the father in him and in john 10, uh 14 10

He says the father who dwells in me does the works speaking of the great works that he's done

Don't forget john 5 19 and john 5 30. He could do nothing unless he receives sees the father do it

So he sees the father do it which is another person and uh so Because the father's indwelling him

No problem Good trinitarianism is so far Is the so is the the holy spirit is indwelling him and the father so there's two divine persons indwelling him or is there just one?

Representing the other ones it does I don't know of a verse on the top of my head where it says the holy spirit is indwelling jesus because we know that The holy spirit anointed jesus at his baptism as he fulfilled levitical law old testament law to enter into the priesthood

That's why he was baptized So luke 4 1 he is filled with the holy spirit and led by the holy spirit into the wilderness.

Luke. What what 4 1 4 1? Yeah, okay. He's filled with the holy spirit and led by the spirit into the wilderness

The second part By the holy spirit and it's great Wells in him doing the works.

Yeah, the good trinitarianism father I'm, sorry. Why not you you kind of jiggled there?

What so is the holy spirit the father? Of course not There's a synonymity there one is spoken up interchangeably as the other one.

Yeah, that's what we have in trinitarianism You have you have a a holy spirit is not the father

So when one one person does something the other person does not do something or if one person

Is uh, you know sort of in the economic trinity It's the father's role to send the son to command the son

Um, and it's the holy spirit's role to you didn't say this but to work through him to work through us um, but you also

To him. Yeah, but it's so how is so this is broken? You're you're that point is refute that point is refuted and broken that the father is not the one in this in the in the world doing uh

Doing the works through us and testifying to jesus and so forth They're both the father and the holy spirit are synonymous

Well You've gone halfway down the road But you've got to realize that as you've already admitted personhood

Is demonstrated through saying me and mine and you and yours having a will etc

And jesus has not my will but your will father. Jesus is a person as you already

Acknowledged as a hypostatic union, which means there's an incarnation which would never be separated It's always going to be that and he

While he was on earth was speaking to the divine person of the of the father which you've already admitted that logically

Necessitates at least two persons in the trinity Right there in the godhead at least two persons

So what you're saying is perfectly consistent with trinitarianism. You just don't go down the rest of the way

You don't recognize that they speak to each other. They each have different wills. Jesus said in john 6 38

He said I came down from heaven by the from the one who was sent me you have to exist in order to be sent

You can't be sent nothing. So the that means that the word I mean jesus, excuse me

You know in the pre -incarnate christ was pre -existent with the father in heaven

That's what we call At the very least two persons. That's exactly how it works

You're just repeating what we say You just don't go down the rest of the way and acknowledge that they have personhood each and communicate to each other

And are distinct by that very nature Okay, so thank you the the father and the holy the father and the son is a duality

And not a and not a trinity. So, um so far. Yeah, and and and we also have uh, you know that It and we that the biblical view

I say that's dominates that duality dominates the biblical view But that's also true in oneness and oneness sees it as one divine

In person one divine invisible eternal god who manifested himself in the flesh

Is it a is it a simultaneous? um person two persons are they simultaneously existing father and son the divine person and the human person are simultaneously existing and The human person can said to be in a transcendent identity.

He is both the son of man and he is the The everlasting father he is both this wait a minute both the father and the son

Wait a minute. You said jesus Hypothetic union and you affirm that that means jesus the one person has a divine nature

Right and the person and the father is also a person you admitted that So is the the father divine?

Well, of course the father is the one true god He is the whenever it speaks of god. God is fought.

God is the father God is the holy spirit. God is the one person of god who says I created all things alone by myself

He is the singular person of god and he is the one who took on humanity upon himself He's the one who became a man to be with us

And to be our savior to save us He took on to himself humanity not just flesh but human personhood so the divine person

Of the father and the human person of of jesus, right the human person of jesus

The the um The god is i'm talking i'm speaking of the the

Jesus is a human man and he has as you said a divine nature, right? So he is one person or two persons.

Jesus is one person he is both god and man, okay, and he and The Okay John 17 3 the only

God, uh, the father is the one true god. Um, and if regents 4 there's a one god the father who's above all

God, uh, there's a Jesus is god and if jesus is god and human and man at the same time

There's only one god for him to be and that is the one god who created all things alone by himself the one person

So So the one person of jesus who's god in flesh was speaking to the one person of the father who's in heaven, right?

Yes, sometimes he spoke as a man and he prayed. No, no, no one person

Are you familiar with the communicatio idiomatum the communication of the properties it means

That the one person has the attributes of both natures the human and divine. He never speaks as one or the other

He never speaks as one or the other historianism Which is there's two persons in the one body.

No, he always speaks as one person i'm with you Always I am thirsty. That's how he speaks.

So when he's speaking he's speaking as a person with two distinct natures So the person of the son is speaking to the person of the father right

Well that that last statement is true because what we see in scripture is we don't we don't see a um

We actually see a jesus who speaks in a human way and speaks as a transcendent human way speaks as a divine

Figure or assuming divine prerogatives and sometimes in a very limited sense. For example,

I am thirsty Um what we see in scripture is there one personal god who has manifested himself as a man so that there is a um

One god there's who is And one man who is the mediator between god and man?

Jesus christ and god now exists as eternal spirit in one mode And a begotten human being now glorified in another completely different mode of existence two simultaneous modes of existence not a trinity

Well, when you say that the son who is one person who's divine and he has his own personhood

And he's speaking to the father who has his own personhood that's two persons who are in the godhead

That would that you could say that's two persons now in order to get any in order to get um,

First of all in order to get an eternal son, you would not be you would have to not only prove

Uh pre -existence you would have to prove eternality For all eternity so you can do that jesus pre -exists um as the as an angel of the lord as an expression that relates to god and it was before um,

What is it? First born over all creation if it was just before the creation There still is a beginning to the expression of the invisible god, but there's there's also still synonymity.

So um was jesus A distinct person from god for all eternity

Oh, yeah, that's easy to prove john 6 38, which i've already gone over this with you He says

I came down from heaven. He's identifying himself as as a person He came down from heaven because he was sent by god.

That means he was in heaven sent by god And we know that he's god. So therefore he has to have eternal nature eternal relationship eternal essence by being the eye

Who as you admit is god who was with the father accorded jesus own words in john 6 38 and if you go to first Uh, excuse me.

Ephesians 1 4. It says he the father chose us the elect in him

Christ before the foundation of the world these two verses demonstrate the eternal, uh, pre -existence of of uh of the christ

Okay, they demonstrate the pre -existence of christ, uh, especially and some of them, you know one understanding of that But you still haven't shown how that applies.

Yes before the foundation of the world but going back beyond that for all eternity you haven't demonstrated the that god eternally exists and you as father and son in his essence eternally and then you'd also have to prove that the holy spirit also is eternally

They're internally distinct and in relation with one another for the trinity to be true Jesus has a divine nature, right?

The divine nature is eternal by nature, right? But his divine nature is god the one true god the father

Eternal by nature and he said claiming that divine attribute says I Was with you before the foundation of the world.

I came down from heaven. You sent me If there's a rule in logic if if a equals b and b equals c then a equals c

It's a law proper inference If jesus is divine by his nature and the attributes of divinity ascribed to his personhood and he's claiming eternal relationship with the father

I came down from heaven And he's he's divine by nature what you said Then that necessitates that he's eternal in that sense.

Otherwise, he's not divine That said nothing about him eternally coming down from the father or eternally existing

You said came down from the father so that is pre -incarnation And the other one before the foundation of the world, so that's pre -creation

So that he's eternal he's divine He's eternal though as a as the person of the father you can't as the one god you can't demonstrate that he's eternal as a

Distinct person from the father. He said he was came down from heaven because the father sent him so jesus

Said he was sent by the father john 6 38. What was jesus? Existence in that before he was sent by the when he was sent by the father.

What was he existing as? He was though he was the one true god the image of the invisible god the expression image of his person the brightness of his glory

So the invisible god made visible the angel of the lord and even prior to that before being manifest he is god himself

So jesus was the true god sent by the true god Correct.

Yeah, he sent himself into the world. Also. He sends his spirit as part of him just you know

God is a lot greater than us, but you know if we don't speak in these terms But if I send my hand over to do something or I send my word to say send hello to someone like that Um god is you know beyond that he's omnipresent.

He fills all things But this so he sent himself or part now, you know, he's not

A the heaven of heavens cannot contain him. So he is not completely contained in an incarnate state

But the in god incarnate is truly him um So it and there is also another sense to where he's sent as he is already in the world

He is sent to do the father's will um In his in his ministry when his time had you know had not yet come and his time came

Um, he was sent to lay down his life and so forth If I send my wife to the store, does that not designate a distinction between us through an object subject relationship?

It does yeah, there's a distinction i'm not denying the distinction oneness doesn't deny a distinction we deny so and before Before there was any creation for all of eternity in in the uh, eternal essence of god.

We deny a distinction of persons So jesus was sent by the father the pre -incarnate christ sent by the father

That's not a distinction That is a distinction, but there's also a synonymity and that he could be said to be the father

Well, wait if he's sent by the father, how is he the father if I Send my wife.

She's not the same person as me. That's because Okay, so that this is what scriptures teach us if we just listen to the scriptures.

This is what we get You're talking about you and your wife are on the same mode of existence You're two distinct persons

But we're talking about an eternal divine spirit who wanted to express himself and made him make himself known who um

Could find no other so his own arm brought salvation, you know

So this is an extension of himself coming into the world. This is the one true god

Entering into a his creation in another mode of existence that he did not have previous to that Does personhood require awareness of others and uh, reciprocity, you know getting back and forth

Fellowship things like that So, yes, it does jesus is a person god is a person

Um, so we relate to jesus as a person um

He is his person is the person of god He is his divine identity his divine nature is the divine person the one singular divine person.

That's what presented in scripture So if as you say personhood requires awareness of others reciprocity fellowship

Uh And your god is one person Then how is he expressing his personhood from eternity?

before he created um, well, it depends on what you're referring to specifically, but um there you know, there's you could say there's a

There was no time when god did not express his uh, his his his personhood to anyone there's you know, but you said it requires awareness of others

If it requires awareness of others and reciprocity and fellowship then then by your definition your god is doesn't have personhood

No, because god is a is is a transcendent divine person. He is the only one of his kind And he is completely self -sufficient.

He does not need to be in a relationship He does not need to express himself, but he had chose to do so I'm not i'm not arguing with that I'm, just saying that uh, you said that personhood requires

I put the word Required you said yes requires awareness of others reciprocity fellowship if it requires that and from eternity past your god

Uh did not have that then he does not have personhood. You want to redefine personhood? Well, yeah,

I will I will I will Retract that and say, you know, it doesn't personhood does not require that especially when you're speaking of If there is only one person in existence at that time, it wouldn't have to require awareness of others but awareness of others and so forth relation related would would indicate and be an indicator of of uh of personhood

I have a couple more questions. Sure You want to how about the top of the hour? We open it up to q a or closing statements?

And then q a we'll do that five minute limits. Okay the top of the hour. Okay Yeah, I almost forgot about closing statements

Yeah, me too Unless you want to just go straight to q a but it's up to you know, you're the guest so up to you

No, it doesn't matter to me I could probably think of something to say but i'll probably just say the same stuff over and over again

I didn't get through everything. Um, all right All right, so let's see um so When jesus said in john 14 7 if you had known me to his disciples

You would know my father you would have known my father and from now on you have seen him and known him Who have this kind of two questions in one?

Who had the disciples seen and known and how had they seen and known the father? Jesus represented the father as it says in hebrews 1 3 and that's what's going on.

He's expressed image of god Just as god made us in his image Uh, then the image of god is made in the human person of christ

In that sense and that's why you would say if you see me you've seen the father Okay, so jesus is the express image of the father or is he the express image of god of god

Of god the entire yeah, he was 1 3 Well, like I said, uh, you got to be careful not to fall into the fallacy of equivocation

Because if you don't define your terms properly when you're using them Then you'll do what a lot of people do you just end up with these alleged contradictions that aren't contradictions because you're not being specific

And so when you ask me certain things i'll say well the bible doesn't say You know doesn't say this and a lot of times people will read into the text

So when it says he's a radiance of his glory, it doesn't say who it is. We could say it's probably the father

We could say that And even though it doesn't say it specifically, but I don't have any problem with that And yet he upholds all things by by the word of his power.

I don't have any problem with that. Okay um So where where in scripture does it, uh

Tell us that a um Second person of the trinity was incarnate in was, uh

Incarnated in jesus or that jesus divinity is a second person of the trinity

It doesn't say who is his divine nature specifically Who is his divine nature

How is jesus divine? Oh, I said, okay. Oh, okay now get your okay.

So who okay Uh, how is jesus divine by the word that was with god that became flesh and dwelt among us john 1 1 verse 14

Okay, and who was the word with who is that god? Is that the trinity? Is that the father is that the holy spirit?

It just says it just says what it says says in the beginning was the word the word was with god and the word was

God and the word became flesh. So it says it's with god It's it's speaking of god as as that person and then the word was god

It's not talking about as a person anymore. It's talking about divinity in nature So john 1 1 in the greek is very interesting because it's designating the identity with and also the distinction from That's trinitarian

Okay, um, I forgot what I was going to say but um the uh, let's see the um word

Okay. So jesus as the word before uh before his incarnation That is uh, the the word is with god

And okay, you said we don't know the scripture doesn't tell us if that's the father or the whole trinity so is it

Safe to say then that we cannot look That's that others believe one or the other that that was he is with the father or with the whole trinity

I'm, not sure i'm following your question. Sorry Okay, so I I asked my question was the word was with god and the word was god who is the god that Uh, the word was with was it the father the whole trinity one other person two other persons

And the scripture doesn't say was your answer Yeah, it doesn't say so. I won't say okay, so If this word that is distinct from god and god

Um can't be said to be with a single person of god or with all of god Then we cannot make if we don't know what the answer is.

We can't make that a test of faith Would you say that is that correct? No No So no because you take one verse that's designating the identity of christ as being divine

And then say that we can't take that as a as a text. Yes We can because oneness denies the true and living god

It denies it and oneness goes so far as to add Requirements of works to salvation by requiring baptism in jesus name and it teaches you can lose your salvation

Yes, it is. But this is the whole thing because Satyriology is based on christology, which is based on theology

And so if you get that wrong, you're going to get everything else wrong It's trickle down trickle down heresy is what it is

And so what you're i've already shown you that the distinction in the persons of the divine Persons existed simultaneous before the incarnation particularly.

John 6 38. There's many verses I can go to I showed you the plurality issue of god in the old testament how he reveals himself in the plural

Let us make he's how that's how god begins In fact in in genesis 1

God is there the spirit is brooding and god speaks. That's the word There's a trinity right there from the very beginning the plurality of god.

Let us make man. Let's go find a language That's how god is And so god has revealed himself because we know the father son holy spirit are each called god

And each speak and each has a will this is how it is And since the bible says the next is 20 year to have no other gods before him.

Your god is not the god of scripture Your god is not the god of scripture and i'm not mad at you, you know, you know

I'm sure if we were meeting person we'd shake hands. We'll get a cup of coffee and argue each other But the thing is you believe in a false god

Your god doesn't exist Your god cannot manifest the true nature of fellowship

Unless something else has created then it then its totality is expressed and manifested in light of creation of others

Your god is the one who doesn't exist as a plurality. But yet the bible says jesus was with the father before He was incarnate and that the father chose us in christ before the foundation of the world

I've shown you and you've even admitted that the person the son is divine and that the person of the father is divine

That's two persons that refutes your oneness It refutes it you have not demonstrated.

Yes, it does You have not demonstrated at all that the systematic approach which I defined

In there as one god, we know there's one god The father's called god the son's called god the holy spirit's called god

They each speak to each other have wills Love fellowship with each one.

This is exactly what we would say as trinitarians You haven't refuted that that's the case This is what we do say this is how you get the trinity and that they speak to each other

This is identity. It's personhood separate distinctness. That's what it is You've not refuted it at all

So you you that's my closing statement. Go ahead Okay You and you've been honest a few times.

I can't remember what what you said in during those times Wait, wait, wait, when you say honest a few times, so you think i'm not honest the rest of them?

No, i'm saying a few times when I asked you a question, you know a clarification question You said well the scripture doesn't tell us such as with john one who is the god i'm always honest just so you know all right, uh fair enough, but um yeah, when when you you said a couple of things you said the uh

Plurality of god let us indicates plurality But in the in the very next statement, it says god elohim.

He created one god created um plurality and singularity Well, and there are different ways to look at that.

There are different ways many different ways to look at that. Um, and uh the

My view is what is is that god was talking to the heavenly host that there but god counsels everything

Or does everything after the counsel of his own will he doesn't counsel with other people he wouldn't speak as a himself as a plurality and then one doing a create a creation, but I'm, not saying that well when you when you when you when you say i'm bad at this, but when uh

When you said at the very beginning god created the heavens and the earth and then god spoke and that's the word And then the spirit hovers over the face of the waters and that's a third person.

You're you're imagining that There's no indication that the speaking is a second person in scripture or that the spirit is a third person

That's what i've shown through synonymity And that's why I asked. Um uh about uh the the holy spirit and the father

Uh, and the synonymity that the this holy spirit was that was in jesus doing the works through him later on He said that was the father in him doing the works through him.

That's why I asked about uh, jesus said, uh Well, you know the famous one he has seen me has seen the father and john 14th and verse 7 back up john 14 7

That's verse 9 7 hardly ever gets in the debates Which is if you would have known me you would have known my father

How do you know the father by knowing jesus because no one has seen god in any time

But the only begotten god who is in the bosom of the father. He has revealed him

He has made him known the invisible god being Made visible to be known so to know jesus is to know the father see this is the presentation

Of the scripture not a god that is tri -personal When the holy spirit hovers over when the spirit of god hovers over the face of the waters

There's no indication that that is a distinct person or anyone distinct from the father Or from the word in that passage that is just speculative imagination and and and and um, you know

Creative attempts like perichoresis and interpenetration which comes down to well.

Jesus is just representing The father that's how they know the father that that's that is a bad argument

That is well It is also to just explain a way this clear synonymity that shows

That jesus is the father if jesus is god incarnate god manifested in the flesh There's only one god for him to be and then in john 14 as well my very last point

Not only did he say if you um Would have known me you would have known my father also, but you have seen him and known him um

Let's see in verse And I mentioned this earlier verse 17 the spirit of truth

Let's see He said i'll pray the father that he will send you another helper They may he may abide with you forever the spirit of truth whom the world cannot receive because it neither sees him nor knows him

But if you but you know him for he dwells with you and will be in you that was jesus there dwelling with them and We will be and he said will be in them

He who dwells with them will be in them and he clarified it in verse 18. I will not leave you orphans

I will come to you. Jesus is saying I am the holy spirit that is going to come to you

This refutes the trinity. This is a synonymity to show that jesus is the holy spirit The holy spirit that is in us is christ in us the hope of glory when we receive the holy spirit

John 1 12 as many as have received him. He gave the power to become sons of god um

And you know and I could keep going because I mentioned this already earlier, but I don't need to keep saying it But you know the he said the father.

Um He said, uh, the father will love him if anyone loves me He will keep my word

My father will love him and he will come to and we will come to him and make our home with him He's speaking of the indwelling of the holy spirit as himself and as the father and the son

So there is a there is a synonymity in personal identity rather than a distinction in personal identity

And i'll just say we agree That the one god was manifested in the flesh in human form and did not cease to be that one god

But we disagree that the father son and holy spirit are all personal it's not enough to just show that they're personal and that they're god but um, they're either the same personal being the same personal god or they're distinct personal

God persons or persons within the one god but you but trinitarians equivocate on being in person when

G when when um god speaks as one person using um Personal singular personal pronouns and then the individual then the father son and holy spirit do the same

God is said to be one being and one and three persons. Well beings do not communicate in uh, or uh

Personal pronouns are not indication as you said of being but as well

Let me put that as you said now, but as you said personal pronouns are in indication of person So what you have is one god who is a person in three persons

That's not what you claim to believe but that's an equivocation within trinitarianism when in actuality the scriptural god is one person

And he has manifested himself in three relational personal ways in the father son and the holy spirit.

That is the biblical god That's your god All right, that's your god.

Yeah. No, no. No, there's we haven't even gotten into the heavy philosophical Aspects of things we can get into but we won't

I guess those are our closing statements. Let's do some q a you ready? All right. Yep. All right

Sure Because so you guys want your questions if you all put them in at once What i'm going to do is this?

I could do Oh, okay. There we go. Got our healer got our provider got our savior. How many gods did

I name? Um, And so i'll do that so we can both see it so go ahead and then uh, because when it when this is up like that and then uh

People put in questions. They'll roll up. He won't probably won't see them So if you have a question say, uh, you know for rod or matt and then

How about this? Uh, if it's for you you answer for one minute, then i'll respond for one minute Then we just go to the next one

Like that, let's do it and then works for me. Okay Okay, where do you live by by any chance what city state if you don't mind

Well auburn area in alabama Alabama, okay, so they're sister cities Okay.

Yeah, i'm up here in uh, idaho uh, boise area Yeah, it's your last free state in the country

That's that's what I like to say okay, uh Okay Oh Charlie's doing it.

Awesome. Okay for charlie. I mean for you. That's yours go Oh rodney.

Okay. So, okay revelation 5 13 exposes says all creation worshiped both the father and the lamb jesus

Why is jesus distinct from the father and worshiped by all creation if he is a creature? well

Jesus isn't he is the he is the eternal god entering into his creation the uncreated god

Creating himself to enter his creation. This is this is a this Shows this imagery between god and the lamb shows rep.

Uh, the trend, uh, the uh oneness perfectly There's not a triad here or you know bad word

I know matt doesn't like that word, but there's not a father son and holy spirit here But there's a father or god did not say father says god

And the lamb and he who sits on the throne and the lamb it shows that god is

Both the eternal spirit and the lamb of god jesus manifested, uh in the flesh

To take away our sins. That's what the lamb represents. Jesus is not really literally a lamb Um, but the lamb comes from the midst of the throne just as jesus said in revelation three,

I believe or two um That he sat he was he sat down with the father on his throne

So he is the visible image of the invisible god This is what one is would expect a duality and this is another example of duality and not a triune presentation of who god is yeah, we just said revelation 513 demonstrates, uh,

That the person of the son is distinct from the person of the father while they're both in heaven just as trinitarianism would say

And that this is perfectly consistent with trinitarianism It's one of the verses we would use to help substantiate the trinitarian view and in my opinion it refutes, uh oneness

Uh, here's other questions rod How would I explain the gospel to someone the gospel is the death burial and resurrection of jesus more?

So I actually start with god became a human being Uh like us became a man jesus christ who is god manifested in the flesh

He did that to save us from our sins because we couldn't save ourselves And so he as a human being god could take the penalty of our for our sins, which he could not do

You know, he could not die as an eternal spirit. So he was manifested in the flesh to be crucified and Resurrect and be the first fruits to resurrect from the dead and the first one to be a glorified human being um, and and that's the gospel we

Receive salvation by putting our trust completely in what he did what he accomplished god himself

Took on our punishment god loved the world by sending the son that was god's doing and god's work from beginning to end

Well, I'm going to talk to you afterwards about salvation what your view is Um, I I teach three parts.

I teach law gospel and then costs when I preach Laws don't lie. You're guilty.

You lied the gospel will rescue you from the judgment and the cost Luke 14 28

Jesus says count the cost of what you're getting involved with now That's a super short version, but I want people to understand what it means to be a disciple of the lord

Jesus christ and to follow the true and living god, etc, etc but uh, that's just a brief brief thing, but uh

Anybody's got any more questions? There's one for you up there. Uh Matt okay.

There we go If there's a trinity Then why did jesus say all power is given to me in heaven and earth, uh typical question good question if you go to luke

Excuse me. You go to uh, hebrews 2 9. It says he was made for a little while Lord and the angels and hebrews, uh, glacians 4 4 says he was made under the law

So as a man who is made under the law Then he would have to cooperate

With the limitations that the law required as a man completely as a man Philippians 2 5 through 8 have this attitude in yourselves

Which also was in christ jesus who although he existed in the form of god did not regard equality with god It came to be grasped, but he emptied himself now

There's discussion about what that means, but won't get into it. Try to do this in one minute and so we would just say that of course the power had to be given to him because he was under the law and Cooperating with limitations of being a man.

And so, uh, that's why it's perfectly consistent with trinitarianism And I have a lot of written on this and a lot more deeply stuff

So anyway, if you want to respond go ahead, yeah, and I would agree with that Jesus was jesus was a true man manifested in the flesh made under the law, uh submitted to um,

You know all the different, uh natural process knees and socio, uh, social circles and and everything, uh in his time and place he was

Truly a human being. However, he was god as well in his transcendent identity

That's why throughout the the gospels, especially the synoptics They are always marveling at his works doing things that no man can do and saying

Who is this man and not quite getting it until john 14 when he finally reveals if you would have known me

You would have known my father And from now on you've seen him and known him and there's another helper the holy spirit coming.

I will come to you so he received that power the uh All power and authority when he was ascended up and the human was glorified and to take on that divine, uh prerogatives

It doesn't say I will come to you and john 14 it does down 14 where 18

I was 14 I want to say 18. Yeah 18. I will not leave you orphans.

I will come to you Oh, okay Interesting we'll let you address that one in the next debate maybe i'm just kidding.

Yeah, do what you want You're the boss. You keep saying i'm the guest. You're the boss That's all right. Um Okay, let's see.

We got any other questions show me scripturally that jesus is the holy spirit. I just did john 14 um the uh spirit of truth whom the world cannot receive nor it can see neither sees him nor knows him but you know him for He dwells with you will be in you.

I will not leave you orphans I will come to you a little while longer. You will see me. No, the world will see me no more, but you will see me um

Let me see, uh judas said how will you uh manifest yourself to us and not to the world? He says if anyone loves me, he will keep my word and my father will love him

We will come to make our home with him and uh, john, uh last one. There's a lot of them, but first corinthians 15 paul said the last the first adam became was made a living soul

The last adam was made a life -giving spirit also second corinthians 3 17 the lord is that spirit

Yeah, this would be consistent with trinitarianism where it has the the interpenetration of the personhood in the trinity, uh

Eucharist where they identify Know each other but uh, I will I will not leave you as orphans.

He's not saying i'm going to be the one who's returning Uh to you as the holy spirit, but i'm not going to leave you in ors

I'm going to send someone he says and I will come to you know that i'm going to research What does it mean that says

I will come to you because uh He says I will come to you leave you go uh

So i'm going to research that one, uh to see what the context is and stuff because he's going to return

Jesus is going to return. He's not going to return as the holy spirit Uh, he's going to return as jesus

So if he's the holy spirit now Or in that form of the holy spirit now, then you have to stop being the holy spirit to come back

We can see But i'll i'll uh, you know, i'll research that that's a good one

I'm sure you'll check out the context following that too. There was a little bit more to it that I read after of course there is

Uh, john 8 17. Go ahead. Rodney Okay, 8 17 and 18

I was there real close so I don't need to use the electronic to get faster 17 and 18 Is it oh even in your law?

It has been written at the testimony of two People is true Two men is true. It's um my translation.

I am he who testifies. Oh, I can't see it on there And my father is another one back up there so you can see it.

I've got it. I think in front of me Um, I am one who bears witness of myself and the father who bears witness of me

Uh who sent me bears witness bears witness of me. Um, yeah, so this is uh, you know to Jesus refers to him in the father as to you have one divine person and one human person god

Uh, jesus is god manifested in the flesh So he is both god and man second, uh, second first timothy two five

There is one god and one medium between god man the man christ jesus Uh, jesus said in another another place here somewhere around here that see you're bearing witness of yourself and your witness

So your witness is not true and jesus said well, even if I bear witness of myself, my witness is true

Um, you know because here in the context he is the judge but there is a distinction between the human on earth and the father in heaven and there is the

The testimony of both the divine person and the human person and we're okay with saying two persons or I am but uh

God is you know You can't get you have to prove a third person from there and you have to prove prove that these two persons were eternally existing

Which can't be done scripturally Um Okay Uh, sorry,

I got distracted by something that popped up Okay, so uh came up there even uh in your law that says written the testimony of two men is true

I'm the witness who testifies of myself and the father sent me testifies About me that's two witnesses two persons right there

But you you said something which you've said before i'm glad you said it again to expose it You said jesus is a human person.

Do you know that that is? incorrect Nestorianism is the error that jesus is one body with two persons in him a human person and a divine person

That'd be two persons and that's not the case. I gotta ask you about the fusion thing. You said the future

Yeah, you did it earlier no not tonight but So for you to say jesus is one human person is to misrepresent him.

He's not one human person He's one person with two natures. That's how you should say it because if you don't say it that way

Then you'll be misrepresenting who christ is and then be building a doctrine on a misrepresentation

Well, I just respond real quick I didn't say jesus is uh, two persons and I um by human person

I just mean that he is a man. He is a real human being a man. He's also god

I wouldn't say within jesus as a human and divine person, but within the eternal god there is a divine person and a human person or a uh, eternal spirit and a human, uh human and Say it again

Did you say in jesus is a divine person and a human person? I said I would not say in okay

I'm, sorry persons. Jesus is one person but within the eternal god You can say there is an eternal person or eternal spirit and a human person

Which you can't say two persons is okay But there are two different modes of existence.

They're completely distinct in that way Two persons i'm glad you admit that Anybody else got any more questions?

Let's see Oh, yeah, there's one for you rodney then i'll respond 16 28.

Jesus says he goes to the father Uh, just as he came. Okay, if he goes to the father as an actual person on what exegetical basis do you reject?

his coming Was also as a person. I don't reject that his coming from heaven was as a person his coming from heaven

Was as the one divine person. That's what uh, the Old that's what the scriptures present.

The scriptures don't know of a tri -personal god the um That's what one is believed that god is one person

But he was manifested him and he had was manifested as a human person who in a so in a in a real sense

He came down from heaven from the divine, uh Eternal spirit even which you you know,

I don't want to speculate as even outside of creation But entered into creation and be and and as a human person as a there's my word

I'm not supposed to use my term But he became a man so the eternal spirit was Manifested in the flesh as a man.

So now paul can say we can say that there is one god and one mediator between that man the man christ jesus, but To go with the totality of scripture, which

I don't have time to go over right now i've said some you know given some illustrations, but god is now um

Presented as existing in both uh Both modes of existence he is eternal spirit, but he has been manifested in the flesh for our redemption

And that's problematic Because you're admitting that jesus is a divine person

Separate from the father who's a divine person because that's how he came in. John 6 38.

I Jesus is saying came was sent from the father. That's distinction And then you're saying that jesus is in heaven

Uh, which I got a quote from you about being fused which we can get to if you got time

I could ask you about that for clarification, but uh What you're saying is, uh, you're you're hinting at the duality

Uh, but nevertheless it says in john 16 20. I came down from forth from from the father

And he's saying I came from the father Okay, he's not talking about just his humanity there.

He's talking about himself who by definition is both divine and human So the divine essence was sent by the father

So you have a distinction right there that is more trinitarian verses Anybody else got a question?

Which which bible version do you use? Uh, that was for rodney.

It says do oneness use I couldn't speak for for for that um, I I can recommend to use more than one and to find out about bible versions and different methods of translation and Go use across the whole spectrum

I use the nesb 95 version. That's what I use prefer it more accurate to the greek

Right now i'm using the new king james. That's what I use mostly to read If that was what the question was that what am

I reading out of? Yeah Here's this question for you. Yeah, I was gonna respond to you.

I think a couple things but I don't remember what they are now anyway um So matthew 12 32, uh, let me see something about uh, jesus existing as a divine person

I uh, I think trinity has the problem because you have jesus existing as a distinct divine person and only second person of the trinity being

Being uh incarnate and not god in his totality becoming incarnate and none of that is in scripture at all you have to um, assume that uh

You have to assume and isogeny that into the text that um the Jesus coming into the world as a divine person

Distinct from the father. He's distinct from the father in the world, but you assume that he was distinct from the father uh prior to coming into the into the world the text doesn't say that All right,

I don't assume it jesus said he was with the father before the creation of the world and john 17 5 and Uh, john, uh 638 he speaks about being with the father beforehand

So this is clearly in scripture and he's divine. That's two persons Uh, anyone who speaks a word against the son of man will be forgiven him

But whoever speaks against the holy spirit will not be forgiven him if jesus is the holy spirit Why is there a distinction by christ himself?

That's what I would ask and either in this age or the age to come So how can the holy spirit not be jesus? How can the holy spirit and jesus be the same if one will forgive and the other will not that's exactly you know, it's a great question because If jesus is one person with two natures and he's god and he and the holy spirit are the same

Then why would it be forgiven against jesus and not against the holy spirit? That's a good question.

Yeah, that's a good question and and I you know, I I don't I don't know all all of the reasoning behind that but uh,

There is a distinction between jesus Jesus was being spoke of during spoken against i'm, sorry during his lifetime when he was here to do his father's will to do god's will to submit and to And to be rejected so he was there to during his lifetime to be rejected and ultimately to be crucified when the time came however,

I have shown That jesus was leaving the world and was going to manifest himself and be always with and in his disciples

And that is also synonymous with the father and the son being in his disciples and it's the holy spirit so jesus is referring to making a distinction between um

His work there during that time on earth and what he was doing versus, you know, what was going to be accomplished and how

God was going to work through the holy spirit after he had ascended up into heaven after the uh,

Holy spirit had been poured out Uh upon the church from the day of pentecost on that's the distinction it doesn't show a distinction in persons but a distinction in Time or a distinction again in modes because how do you get that the holy spirit is not the father from that?

Let's go back and forth. So you have a duality there still again. You have the human christ and you have the eternal spirit

Yeah, which refutes oneness Can you please explain christ baptism is for you oh that's for me

Yeah god speaking from heaven okay, so Yeah, I can explain it.

Um, I would ask who is who is speaking from heaven? You said god you you must mean the father and and then it says there's a voice speaking from heaven um

This is my beloved son. So that's why you would infer i'm sure that it's the father uh, but You know in order to get a trinity a trinity is not in view here

You have one god on earth you have god jesus christ I'm, sorry jesus christ himself on earth and you have a voice and you have the spirit coming down upon jesus

So there's you can't distinguish between how do you know? It's not the person of the holy spirit Speaking at the same time as coming down when

I I would see one god who is eternal spirit He is both anointing jesus and speaking and then there's the human the man jesus who is god in the flesh

Being anointed with the holy spirit. So I would explain it just in two simple ways. That's a long way God is omnipresent.

So the second person in the trinity is not just located right there in one body And the third person of the trinity is there we are seeing of a dove or a

Like as a dove coming down. So that's the third person in the trinity No, god can be in all those places at the same time

Now jesus as a man humbled himself and was obedient to to god the father as a as a man

And so he did his works as we do He he was in humble submission and he he

As we do received the holy spirit so that the holy spirit began to work through him

And do the works through him which who later on in john 14 10. He said that the um the father who dwells in me does the work so the baptism of jesus is a clear example of it's it's a picture of god's omnipresence

Of the duality of the eternal spirit and god manifested in the flesh the man christ jesus

And it's a beautiful Proof or demonstration that jesus that the holy spirit is the father who is working in jesus

And let me respond to that really quickly. The baptism is a good trinitarian verse because we see all three there

Simultaneously, which is exactly what the trinitarian view holds that the father son and holy spirit are simultaneous

It's exactly what occurs when jesus was baptized Incidentally, he was sprinkled another topic but uh

That's uh, we would say that the father said my beloved son in whom i'm well pleased and don't forget that jesus

That the father calls jesus god in hebrews 1 -6 -1 -8.

He's worshiped. He's called god hebrews 1 -8. So, uh, he's speaking of someone else besides himself

This is a differentiation and distinction example of personhood Exactly what the scriptures teach and that is exactly uh, the trinitarian perspective

Uh, okay. So another one after is okay. This is for you Boy, they're really getting on you is jesus after the incarnation the person of the son or the person of the father um,

I think well I mean I don't know what the question is being based on but I I Yes, he's both he jesus is jesus um is the person of the son in his

Incarnate flesh a person that was a man that was born 2 000 years ago, but he is also deity

Okay, jesus said in john 17 3 that his father is the only true god in john 10

He said my father is greater than I he doesn't mean he's better more important in quality

He means greater because the father is the eternal omnipresent spirit Uh who the heavens of heavens cannot contain and and uh the logos and then the the word and then the word made flesh in the person of jesus christ is the

Visible image of the invisible god. So jesus is both man and god both uh father and son

If god was the only if if jesus father was the only true god Then there and jesus is god and then there's only one god for jesus to be jesus must be the father and we should see a synonymity and jesus

Presenting himself as the father or knowing the father by knowing jesus and so forth

You know, my response is that you have a problem in that you admit one thing and then say something else

Not intentionally you're not deceptive But what you admit is that the person of the son is indeed a person the father is also a person

The father has a divine essence and the son has a divine essence and that they speak to each other

Which is exactly what personhood is they do this. This is exactly what trinitarianism would state

You've admitted this you just don't go down the whole length of the road to come to the logical and necessary logical conclusion

That are two distinct simultaneous persons at the very least right there. That's what we would say about that Uh, so after the incarnation of the person the son of the person of the father i'd like to get into Before the incarnation, but that's another topic.

I think someone else had some more questions. Oh question for me How about that god my healer god my provider god my protector god my salvation is god not able to be the four by his spirit instead of persons

The question does not uh is not coherent In that the conclusion does not come from the premises see to say god's my healer is is the one god

He's the provider. He's a protector Uh, he's not able to be the four

See when you say the four well, of course, he's a healer and his provider. He's he does different things um by four instead of persons well

The issue of personhood has nothing to do with how god is a provider and a healer so you're mixing categories

In logic, it's called a category mistake. So one is titles and the other is is a personhood

They're not the same thing. So it's a category error, uh on the questioner's part and and I and I see lafonso kind of what what you're getting at, um in bringing up this question because Um god the one god can manifest himself in different ways or have different functions and still be one god

Father son and holy spirit are relational terms and how god has related to humanity

And you could see a relationship between the father and the son. Yes but uh, you know the um,

The oneness of god is still true because we see the synonymity of one god creating alone and by himself and yet there is a

Jesus has spoken of as the creator and the father creating through the son. We see a duality of modes um, but yet the same

Personal god the same being malachi 2 10. It says have we not all one father has not one god created us now

I don't know how a trinitarian would different trinitarians. I'm sure understand that in different ways, but I would say that's synonymous parallelism

There's one father The god who created us. It's a synonymous parallelism because of what paul says in Uh, ephesians 4 um 6 or something like that There's one god and father of all

Who is above all? Oh who is above all through all hope you're doing q a and short answers, but yeah

That's a long minute. Sorry Which one of the trinity should you pray to all of them one of them whatever and a specific person?

Why not the other two also? Um, I pray to the father. I pray to the son uh The son is prayed to I could show you where the son is prayed to after his ascension into heaven

That's for a collage. Uh, first Corinthians 1 2 obviously jesus said pray to the father john 6 and john and luke 11 and um

Our fellowship is with the holy spirit You can't have fellowship with someone that you don't communicate to and talk to and that by definition is prayer second corinthians 13 14 talks about that.

Go ahead. This is a good point if the trinity were true Um, then what matt's saying is true you would put pray you would pray to all the persons of the trinity however in scripture

We're told to pray to the father because the father is the one true god and then uh You see jesus prayed and worshiped as well and you see a lot of duality like the first questioner who brought up revelation 5 the god and the lamb are worshipped.

There's not a mention of a trinity there, but there's God or the one on the throne and there's the lamb jesus

Worshipped as god together Let's see, there was a man by the name of john who was sent by god

Why couldn't this meeting apply to jesus being sent does this the meeting you mean meaning?

Does this mean that john was pre -existent? No, because we know by definition he was not but we know that jesus is god in flesh

Hence pre -existence and jesus says he came down from heaven to do the will of the father So that doesn't apply to um to john the baptist

Jesus is absolutely designating his pre -existence simultaneously with the father in his personhood

I've gone over this before tonight. John 6 38 clearly teaches that among other verses john 17 5 and other verses, but so there you go

Yeah, and i've Said a few things on this jesus is sent in the world as a man

Uh to do the will of the father being found in philippians 2 and form as a man He humbled himself to the obedience the point of death

Uh, but he is also spoken of coming down from heaven and being sent by the father.

It's not uh, it's not specified whether the sending was

Prior to the incarnation or after the incarnation there could be both but it's still God is spoken of like in zechariah 2, uh, 2, uh 12 or so Uh, yahweh sends yahweh.

Um, so it's true. God sends himself, but it's not someone other than himself Anybody else got any more questions?

If not, I gotta It's a restroom And then I got some questions for you.

I want I want to know if you got time. I'm just getting warmed up Oh, okay. I'll tell you what i'm i'm pretty bad at this for my first time.

I should uh, hopefully i'll get better at this well um

Tell you what, let me use the restroom if that's okay You want to just have a uh, because we've had people give q and a but I want to talk about i'm just curious

Your view of how we get saved and what we got to do That's okay Okay, I want to put this down.

You're going to say anything Charlie, no, you're allowed to go to the restroom. Thanks. Thanks. We'll give you a special dispensation

Good questions people I can't keep up with the text and post them fast enough but um

So if I missed it, I I apologize but um Rodney you and matt have generated some some good interest here.

So that's always good. That's good How many do we got watching? Can you tell? 102 plus 27.

So, okay. I can't see Yeah, I all the streams filter into this one particular spot.

It should be showing you at the top of the stream yard Screen that we are all appearing on at this point

But um, yeah, I appreciate you showing up and taking some heat rodney that's that's uh good.

Yeah, i'm really a true amateur No, no That doesn't matter you're polite and you're respectful and that's as much as anybody can ask for uh

I'd like to uh, I wouldn't mind being your next door neighbor. That's for sure. Thank you for I'll take that as a compliment

Yeah, well you said you have kids and that's always good medicine for me. I enjoy kids. They're the best medicine

And at my age you need medicine And kids are the best especially mine

Good Well, how about you answer all the questions while we get so he gets well until he gets back.

Oh, no, I I never No, I never I never put myself out there uh

You can do from both perspectives. There we go. There you go Okay, okay, there you go, okay matt you were allowed that special dispensation you appreciate it.

Oh man um See you didn't even say thanks.

Okay. Bye Well, anyway rodney I want to say thank you for your time

I will continue to talk but you're polite unlike Some other people i've debated um

Um, but that's that's good, uh, okay, so i'm curious about soteriology

Right, okay Second debate ladies and gentlemen, you didn't sign up for this. Well, we're just gonna i'm just curious actually curiosity.

Uh more curiosity um, I was wondering if rodney has a website or a youtube channel or If he wants to be contacted by people, uh, if you're going to offer him a chance to put the contact information out there

Go ahead Okay. Yeah, I uh, I can't believe I sent this to everyone. I know and i'm i'm being such a bad presenter

Uh, but uh, yeah, this is my first time but uh, yeah, I get my website earlier Uh word warriors .bc

is i'm still working on it. I'm very bad at that too Uh do too many things at one time. My youtube channel is youtube .com

slash word warrior zero zero seven Word warrior zero zero seven

And uh, you could contact me by my email it's word professor at hotmail .com

word professor Word as in word the word of god word professor at hotmail .com

Yeah, so you check out my youtube channel You'll see maybe a little bit better presentations of uh of some gospel, uh, some some teachings rather than debates.

Here's my first debate I was very easy

So Oh I could be quite quite The hardest thing was trying to get everything in there and also man

I just kept violating the time as well and then had to trip over my words and stuff To try to get some of these points in there

It's all right something to get used to That's all right. Um, I always I have suggestions where I debate people is try and be as succinct as you can

Without being overly succinct could just get it down. Um, that's why I try and do that. Um as much as possible

Okay, so that's all right so how okay justification is a legal declaration of righteousness, right

Yes, okay So are we justified by faith alone in christ alone?

um We're let's see. We're justified by faith. So, um, I don't

I don't use the term faith alone Um, which is from martin luther.

I use we're justified by faith apart from the works of the law um however, um

Faith and trust in faith. I say we're we're we're we're safe We're justified by faith or saved by faith and that we're trusting in jesus completely for our salvation

We know there's nothing that we can do it do to save ourselves grace is when uh

God himself accomplished our salvation And we couldn't do anything about it so we can't earn it and our part is faith

So we put our trust in him and and that we accept that free gift of salvation and that um

Is completely apart from the works of the law It's not a part of the old covenant.

It's a new covenant um, and the another aspect of that is if we're saved by faith there's a couple aspects to faith faith is uh

Our salvation actually is already accomplished in what jesus did it's past present and future

We we have been saved. We are being saved. We shall be saved So there's a future aspect to salvation

It says in first peter one ready to be revealed in the last time and we're kept by the power of god through faith

So in that sense where we haven't received our final gift of salvation where we will have eternal life

Okay, and so we but we we know that we have that by faith because we trust in What jesus accomplished for us, but also

The scriptures tell us and jesus told us The way to receive salvation is by believing in him and by being baptized in his name

Born of water and the spirit receiving his presence in us Which is the which is the father in us, which is the holy spirit in us, which is jesus in us.

So um, uh, we accept that when jesus said When you're born of water uh

Or the the bible says let's just say in acts 2 38 What shall we do be baptized in the name of jesus christ and you shall receive the gift of the holy spirit receiving?

the presence of god in you is the accomplishment of your salvation right now the uh, and the blood of well,

I don't want to go that far because that won't make sense but when the bible says When you are baptized in the name of jesus you come to him god's way you come to god his way he

Says that you will be baptized with the holy spirit. You will receive the holy spirit. That's god's part So we we come to him in full assurance of faith as it says in hebrews 10 um

And we submit to his way and we believe that if we will be baptized if we believe in him

And are baptized as he said then he will save us. So faith also entails believing in his word

It's a holistic faith not just belief only not just belief that but in belief in investment in Our full trust in and our full lives in his hands

Maybe you could work on getting those answers shorter Um, I don't know. Yeah, that's the one thing

I was nervous about. Yeah, it's not my gift Do you have to be baptized in order to be saved? You yes, you do jesus you have to okay

So yes, you have to be baptized to be saved. So can you be saved? without being baptized

Well, that would be the inverse of the same question So a person on his deathbed tubes all over him

Trusts in christ believes in christ dies before he's baptized does he go to heaven or hell? well

First of all, um If it's necessary he goes to hell, right? well, I I I would

I I stick to what you know a biblical, uh, discussion on it and um

It rather than making exceptions the rule I think that's a fallacy to make exceptions There's not an exception.

It's I know what happened. I used to work at a hospital. I knew the chaplain in the hospital It happened. So the people confess christ literally

I've I used to be a transport guy in the hospital and register patients in emergency. I just go to all the hospital

I've seen people in conditions where they cannot be moved. I've asked the chaplain Do they receive christ on their deathbeds, you know trust in christ?

Yes by faith Yes, and then they can't get baptized because they can't And then they die shortly afterwards.

So let me ask you this is real. Yeah, it's real heaven or hell It's real, but it's not my call.

I don't make those decisions Yes, you can because if you have to be baptized to be saved

Logic requires that you must then say they go to hell because they weren't baptized No, but I I don't have to make that decision.

Now. I would say what you do. I I am I am bound I am bound to to present things the scriptural way

Jesus said he made disciples by baptizing them and teaching them everything that I have about discipleship.

I'm just saying that person A christian is a disciple his his christians are disciples So so then he's not i'm gonna be a little tougher on you now

He told us to go and baptize so I have to give the scriptural answer is that uh baptism

Uh, he commanded us to be baptized to be saved. John 3 5 whoever unless a man is born of water and the spirit.

He will not enter the kingdom of heaven Let's do one at a time one at a time if god makes an exception god can make an exception

But I can't tell you because of that exception or because of that other, you know, maybe I can't say it's an exception

Okay, okay You don't have to be baptized. I won't do that I'll say well what here's what you need to do and it has to be what god's word says

Okay, i'm gonna turn the fire up a little bit on you. Are we justified by faith romans 5 1 having therefore been justified by faith

The romans 5. Yeah, we are justified by okay And the bible says that god grants us faith philippians 1 29 the air is passive indicative, which means

That uh god is one who performs the action upon us and we end up believing he grants that we believe philippians 129

All right And he has dealt to each one the measure of faith And so he grants that we believe right

And to suffer for christ's sake this is believers. So are we justified by faith when we have faith?

Are we justified by faith when we have faith You mean faith that god grants us?

Then you will obey his word which when he says to to receive I agree he will be baptized

I agree in his way I agree. Are we justified by faith when we have faith though? Uh, well, we're not justified by faith alone apart from sure we are

Him no, no By faith if it's true faith and not just belief or mental ascent the faith that god grants you

So he grants that you believe you have faith philippians 5 1. I mean philippians 1 29.

He grants that we believe Remember I told you I could turn the heat up. I was nicer in a debate, but now we're just talking So i'm gonna i'm gonna put the heat on you.

So we're justified by faith. It's either this It's either the case that we're justified by faith or it's not the case that we're justified by faith right

It's a logical necessity. There's no third option. So If we're justified by faith and god grants us that faith

Are we justified by faith when we have the faith that god grants us? It's either the case is yes, or it's no well

It in romans 5 1 it's yes, because he's talking about those who are already saved. He's talking about baptized

Believers. No, you don't know that who have been justified while he's writing to the roman church Therefore having been justified by faith.

We have peace with god through our lord. Jesus christ. My question is Are we justified by faith when we have faith?

That's the question You um Yes, or no,

I mean it's just a yes or it's a no Because you got a problem because you're gonna have to say you're gonna be baptized to be saved

But the bible doesn't teach it furthermore You said by things what we do But you know what faith alone is taught in by paul in romans 4 5 the one who does not work

But believes in him who justifies the ungodly his faith is credited as righteousness So there's no works the man on the deathbed who does not work

But believes his faith is credited as righteousness. Would you agree? Yes, I didn't say anything about faith by works

I just said that doesn't and I and I will say it now. I didn't say it this way, but that does not negate the

Entryway into um into the church and receiving the remission of sins by baptism because that is not at work

You don't do anything to get baptized You just come to do you just come and someone else baptizes you it's a ceremony that says baptize yourself

You do not do anything to be baptized You just submit and come to god his way for I can turn that question on you as well

Are we justified by faith when we just have faith but do it and we don't come to him? Do you have to come to him?

No, you can't come to him unless it's granted to you by the father. John 6 65 So, how do you come to him?

Is it just when faith comes or how do you come to him? God grants that you believe philippians 1 29.

He grants you repentance second tibet 225 your cause to be born again uh

First peter 1 3 you're born again not of your own will john 1 13 And we're justified by faith romans 5 1 romans 3 28 romans

Uh 4 5 galatians 2 16 2 21 and that god grants us that faith. We're justified when we have faith

And so as acts 238 says and I think you think is this formula for salvation, right?

Right act 238 repent each of you be baptized in the name of jesus for the forgiveness of your sins And you shall receive the gift of the holy spirit.

Is that a formula? It is the means for coming to god It is coming. Okay. Yes. All right.

So then how come faith is not mentioned in there? Um, so just specifically acts 238 what's something else that you mentioned in there?

Okay born again So i'm answering go to john 3 next if you want. Yeah, i'm answering your question, but you did mention born again

So i'm going to preface my answer with the question you can come back to it. How are you born again?

How are you born again? Um, how is a person born again? And then you say faith in acts 238

Okay, you said in acts 238 Um, why is there no mention of faith there?

So it's not a formula. That's not just one. It's not just well, you know, I mean, I don't just isolate the verse there the whole context is

A preaching of the gospel and and they have responded so that crowd has already received his word

And cried out men and brethren, what shall we do? So they do believe there and he gives them the answer

Now those who respond respond in faith those who don't have true faith do not respond there are 3 000 souls added that day

And it has to be by immersion is baptism has to be by immersion Well, I I believe that's what the word means.

Um, that's that that can be a did you know that jesus was sprinkled? Jesus was sprinkled.

I was doing some some uh I I heard that you're doing some research or something on on on on your view of baptism

I've been doing baptism research for years and according to the old testament law Jesus in order to enter into the priesthood had to be sprinkled

And I have an article on this why was jesus baptized you can go through and you can see the references No one's refuted it yet Not because they have and I refuse to ignore it.

I just wrote I just ignore it. No It says that they have to be sprinkled with water.

That's what the command is In numbers 8 7 when the priest jesus had to be 30 years of age

The priest had to be 30 years of age anointed with oil the holy spirit verbal blessing my beloved son whom i'm well pleased

Had to be sprinkled with water in fact When it says in hebrews 9 10, it talks about washings baptismos is the greek word hebrews 9 10 baptismos

Washings read the context and it's absolutely referring to old testament sprinklings Here's a question for you

You go to if you go to acts 1 5 John baptized with water

And you'll be baptized with the holy spirit So the word baptism there, what does it mean? The word baptism means to dunk or dip or plunge or submerge in water

Then were you were you dunked or submerged in the holy spirit? That's a metaphor.

Yeah of being baptized into into Uh, the the well into the church, but also that uh baptized with the holy spirit

Baptism of the holy spirit is by pouring It's a prophecy from joel 2 28 29, which is which peter says is fulfilled in acts 1 17 and 18

Or actually 17 and 18. This is what was fulfilled You know talked about the holy spirit the fulfillment of the promise of the pouring john baptized with water

But you'll be baptized poured on with the holy spirit The second word baptized there does it is the context require it to be pouring well

Wait the second word of what and even in acts 1 acts 1 5 No, the context doesn't require it to be pouring but that is a that is a a good and better connection that you made between that and the joel passage, but I think that the passage when you made the connection um

Before to the high priest being sprinkled with water and jesus being jesus baptism

You made that connection because you see a connection and there's no necessary connection there I would tell you what you go to my article

Why was jesus baptized to fulfill all righteousness fulfill the old testament law?

Leviticus chapter 8 chapter 4 xs 29. It talks about the requirements See if you can find any place where the priest because he had to enter into the priesthood.

This is what he's fulfilling He's a high priest Show me any place in scripture where the priest was dunked in water and that's fulfilling what was jesus was done.

Yeah well, I don't know i'm not i'm not up on on uh, the the uh i'm, just showing you requirements in the washings and baptisms in the old testament.

I know that uh, there are I know that there are other To wash his his body had to wash his clothes and wash his body and so forth.

So yeah, he wasn't immersed He wasn't immersed. The water was applied. The elm was applied

So when it says john baptized with water, you'll be baptized with the holy spirit. The second word baptism means the pouring

Well, you're connecting it with the other with the yeah anointing anointing with uh with with oil or with the holy spirit in the old testament now, these are just um

These are just uh metaphorical terms of how we receive the holy spirit, you know That doesn't negate that the holy spirit comes down from heaven in us and that we're totally immersed in the holy spirit

That's that's that's that doesn't directly correlate with baptism The way the bible says is the holy spirit's poured and that pouring is called baptism

It's yeah, it's also called anointing which means pouring but um, yeah, I don't have a problem with anointing first john 227

But the thing is that i'm showing you that the word baptism here is dealing with pouring

I got a question for you Did you know that there's about? I did research on this about six hundred thousand people

Around the samarian jerusalem area at the time of john the baptist and it says all

Of not samaria, but all of judah And jerusalem are going on to be baptized by john now, obviously not every individual so If john the baptist was baptizing by immersion

And he was the one doing it Thousands upon thousands of people were going out

Have you done any thought about how much? Work that is if he can mathematically even do that How many thousands would he have to be baptizing every week?

Have you thought about that the jordan river is cold and being down in the water hypothermia

Did you also know that how they were people were sprinkled with hyssop?

Which is a plant that goes on the on the sides of the jordan river And people were coming to be sprinkled

It makes more sense. The reason i'm bringing this up is because You have you teach you have to be baptized immersed in the name of jesus, which is another topic in order to be saved

But yet we have in acts 2 38 we have what you call an Order you will receive the gift of the holy spirit, but the gift of the holy spirit is not salvation in the context

It's the movement of the charismatic gifts If you read acts chapter 2 absolutely

Yes, it is. They were hearing them speaking with tongues and they were doing this and that's what it is

If you go to acts 2 it says Having received from the father the promise of the holy spirit verse 33

Because what were they what was peter talking about? You should do the homework read the context The holy spirit was poured on them.

And why did he say that in verse 17 because it was spoken of through joel What were they talking about hearing them speaking other languages speaking in tongues?

This the great sound occurred in verse 6, uh, acts 2 6 hearing them speak with their own language

They're like whoa, you can't be you know, just talking about what those languages are and all that he says

Peter said well, this is what was spoken of through joel the apostle the prophet It in the last days god says

I will pour forth my spirit on all mankind And that's verse 17 and verse 18 those days.

I'll pour forth my spirit and they shall prophesy And so it's that's what it says and then it says in verse 33 having received from the father the promise of the holy spirit been poured forth

Which you both see and hear That's the context of what it means to receive the holy spirit it's not salvation is it

It's a charismatic movement gifts Now there are a lot of topics there

But uh, no, I haven't done the mathematical calculations of how long john was out there and how many were coming

I don't know how many were coming to him uh on on a particular day Obviously not everybody came all at once and as you said not all of the people.

It's uh Blanket way of describing what was happening a lot of people. Yeah Yeah, there's only ten thousand came out out of six hundred like six hundred and thirty thousand just ten thousand

Well, it's it wouldn't be all that would be just almost in a portion So if we did all

I mean a lot more than that you you do the numbers you see how problematic it is by by uh,

By immersion in fact three thousand were added in one day. Now. It doesn't say how many people were baptizing

Yeah, but if 12 Men were baptizing. I just did numbers on 12 12 disciples.

Let's say all 12 were baptizing by immersion Then you have to do one baptism roughly every two minutes and 20 seconds if you do it for eight hours straight

Now a person weighs 100 pounds going down in the water to weigh 103 105 coming up out of the water because of water on the clothing

How you could do that for eight hours every two minutes and 20 seconds you think they could do that If because don't forget hypothermia

Because the waters you get cold so you can't be up really high. It can't be out in the water very long How are they going to do that?

I don't know how it happened how it unfolded how they did it. It's been a long time since i've looked into uh modes of baptism and how baptism was done

I Go mostly on the depend mostly on the definition of of Baptism as a dipping as a submersion.

I'm showing you some scripture contrary stuff. Well, and I and I'm also um, you know would have to have you looked at the

Uh first the first century jewish washings the baptism did did they do baptisms by immersion?

Is that something that was ever done? I was immersions Sprinkling three. How did the different uh modes?

How did the different modes come about? How do they play about? Immersion sprinkling pouring were all done and they would they did.

Okay, they would do it three times So just sprinkling or just pouring. I didn't say it was just and so it's any any mode

Yeah, i'm just saying that you can't say it's immersion Because it might be but it might not be emerging.

What does baptizo mean or? means to dip Okay The more i've studied it over the years the more i'm convinced

That it does not mean and necessitate immersion and i've got good arguments but nevertheless In acts 10 44 through 48, they received the gift of the holy spirit

Just like the next 238 before they were baptized. They're speaking in tongues And glorifying god, that's what it means because of the holy spirit

So if you had to be baptized to be saved were these people not saved even though they were glorifying god

And they were uh speaking in tongues, well, let me take a rodney minute and answer your question Uh, but first,

I let me let me tell you why I think jesus was baptized. You said to fulfill all righteousness When he when he when he initiates his ministry before he goes out to be tempted in the wilderness

He starts by coming and being baptized. He says it is too full. It is necessary that we fulfill all righteousness

Righteousness He is baptized by john in the jordan and then he receives the holy spirit

The holy spirit comes down upon him in bodily form Um, so he does that to fulfill all right from this and I believe he does that as an example

He is doing he is as it says in hebrews. He is made Um in all ways like his brethren.

He was like us in all ways except without sin and um Then when jesus starts preaching at the very beginning of his ministry

He says unless one is born again. He cannot enter the kingdom. He cannot see the kingdom of god and When nicodemus asks what he means jesus, um, synonymous miss lee says the same words, um, except Truly truly

I say to you except one is born and then in place of again, it's of water and the spirit

He cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. Let's go take a look at the context Yeah, that's fine But then there is a water and spirit theme all throughout the rest

Of the of the new testament including the book of acts as far as when people are added to the church and coming to the church

So baptism is receiving the holy spirit including acts 10 And in the great the four accounts of the great commission

There's a water and spirit or remission of sins and spirit theme And in the epistles as well paul's argument often hinges on in romans and galatians

You don't have to go to the law. You're justified apart from the law because romans 6 He who has died to sin is freed from sin

We have died because on by virtue of our baptism and been buried with jesus in baptism

And in galatians 5 too his his paul his uh, paul's argument often hinges on him.

You were baptized Therefore you are a new creature. You don't have to go through these other things and i'm using my words

But we can look at romans 6 and galatians 3 and 4 we can look at colossians 2 and what do you want to look at?

a lot of it Well, we can go straight through you wanted we can start at the beginning. You wanted to go to john 3 Go to john 3.

What's the context? Jesus says in john 3 3 it's salvation He says

I say unless one is born again You cannot see the kingdom of god, right? I would say that has to do with salvation.

No problem Nicodemus said how can he be born when he's old enter a second time in his mother's womb? So he's talking about entering into the womb

Okay, second. Jesus said, uh, you don't see born of the water and the spirit

Now water I believe is the womb Why because jesus then goes on to say the next verse?

That which is born of the flesh is flesh and the spirit is spirit so Nicodemus says the water of the womb

And jesus says Water and the spirit and then he says that was born of the flesh is flesh and spirit is spirit water flesh spirit spirit

Now nicodemus doesn't say the water of the womb first. You'd have to demonstrate that born of water

Um is an idiom that means natural childbirth or something like that when it actually doesn't but what g what?

Nicodemus doesn't understand what jesus said and he says how can a man be born a second time?

You mean go back into the womb, but that's not what jesus meant His words are identical in john 3 3 and john 3 5 except a man be born again is be born of water in the spirit, so Water and spirit is elaboration on begin and it of again

And it is the second birth that is being referred to here That is of water in the spirit and that's clearly seen throughout the rest of the new testament.

That's how salvation is Well, look at the yeah, you you imply that but you haven't demonstrated it So the context is born of water and the spirit and jesus talks about the flesh and the spirit

So, how do you know jesus isn't referencing the water to the flesh? Well, I I don't think that's

I think like I said, you don't know because the context at first is a second birth

And then he goes there's a fleshly birth and a spiritual birth After that, it's true.

He does. I think he switches the context from the new birth from the first And then distinguishing the second birth the two

He says you must be born of the water and the spirit or you can't enter the kingdom of god Because that which is born of the flesh is flesh and born of the spirit of spirit

Yeah, those two are not connected except for the new birth is of the spirit and it's of water in the spirit

They're not connected. He just said them both in one breath Maybe you're right matt if in the rest of the new testament, we don't see anything about salvation being water and spirit

Let's let's go to another verse then give me another one that doesn't prove your point So, how does jesus commission his church his disciples to make more disciples to baptize them?

Right and teach which baptism is symbol of What's your

It's of the death bearing resurrection of jesus It's a covenant sign Okay that too now, let me tell you, um, it's it's uh

So So matthew 28 9 28 19 and 20 you have a water and spirit theme Jesus said go therefore make disciples of all nations and then he says how with a series of prepositions baptizing them

And teaching them everything i've commanded you so that's the water and and then there's something that's continued after and Lo, I am with you always to the end of the world.

So there's a spiritual end of the age There's a spiritual presence of jesus there. There's a water and spirit theme. You see the same thing in mark a parallel passage

He who believes in his baptized shall be saved. He who believes not you want to go to that verse It's not a good verse for you to go to no, it it fits right in there with the others

No, it's not a good verse. Let me tell you why that's for one thing for one thing It has uh, some textual serious textual variants 17 non -american words appear in a non -american sense in those last 11 verses

And there's a doctrinal error in verse 12, which says jesus appeared in a different form And it says for the one who does not believe won't be saved you fro.

Okay. There you go So it doesn't say who's not baptized. That's not a good verse for you to go to well, I understand those issues, but my point is that it is it is parallel in that when jesus has commissioned in his

Apostles, this was whether if this was added, uh later it was still added

Earlier in church history, but you're just all you're doing is just saying that the covenant sign is there

It doesn't mean the covenant sign is what saves What i'm saying? Let me tell you what i'm saying

There's a water and spirit theme in matthew mark luke and john version of the great commission whether you want to uh,

Argue mark or not. Okay. There's baptism and jesus with us always in matthew in mark.

There's be be baptized to be saved and uh These signs shall follow those who believe and there are all these spiritual miraculous manifestations of of of god, um working through us in luke

Jesus, wait a minute. Wait a minute. You're skipping stuff around mark luke and john.

Oh, okay You forgot acts where it contradicts that It doesn't contradict that it does water and spirit theme is all throughout

Really go to act 16 30 after they brought him says what must we do to be saved and he says believe in the lord jesus christ

Yep, that's a good one. We'll go right there but as soon as I After I finish with luke and john, so we'll skip all the acts

Don't go too fast because if you're going to whip all these out i'm going to examine each one. Okay for pick one

Matthew matthew you can skip mark if you want but in luke so there's baptism look what? There's luke 24

Luke 24 what 24 starting at uh, is this 24? Um, what verse you trying to find?

it's uh verse 44 uh Then he said to them thus it is written and thus it is necessary for the christ to suffer and to die and to rise

From the dead the third day so he's summarizing the gospel instead of saying go and teach or preach um, and he says

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name to all nations beginning at jerusalem

And you are witnesses of these things Behold, I send the promise of my father upon you hearing those things that you're due for power power on high so you have a dual, uh response to the gospel repentance and remission of sins

That will be received and the holy spirit the promise of the father the power from on high So baptism is for the remission of sins

Instead of baptism. It says remission of sins. Can I ask you a question here? Hold on, you're going too fast

Okay, slow down All right, act 238 says you're baptized for the remission of uh, for the forgiveness of sins

Does that mean that's how you get forgiveness of sins? Yes, it does. Okay, so Baptizing and preaching.

Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Okay Now in luke 24 47 repentance for the forgiveness of sins, is that how you get forgiveness of sins by repentance?

It says repentance and remission of sins should be preached In his name to all nations beginning at jerusalem.

It's parallel. See go make disciples of all nations. Please slow down slow down Okay, you make a state your question.

No, you're not going to give just one word answers. I'm showing the parallel jesus You're making a mistake.

I'm trying to be polite with you. You're making a mistake So, okay, what is all right? You said what the greek says i'm going to read you the greek

Okay, that's what it says And that repentance forgiveness of sin should be proclaimed.

That's what it says. That's english Okay so Okay, i'm looking at the greek.

Yeah repent you're talking about in luke or okay. Hold on. Hold on rodney. Hold on I'm asking you if you must repent in order to get and obtain salvation

You must repent. Yes. Okay is repentance compliance with the law is uh

If you're committing adultery, you got to stop adultery in order to go get saved, right? So you have to abide by the law in order to be saved.

Is that what you're saying? It's it's not no it's not synonymous, but you have to cease from I didn't say it was synonymous

So is a ceasing from sin repentance because right here you brought this up and i'm trying to work with you

The repentance it says for the forgiveness of sins. That's what the nasb says Okay, the king james

It says repentance and remission of sin should be preached. Okay, the word and is not there in greek

All right All right It says on the third day and that repentance for or actually, uh, actually

You know what? I gotta i gotta be right. It actually says and actually says the word and in greek Okay that repentance and forgiveness of sin should be proclaimed.

So just leave it there because i'm honest that's what it says in the greek I'm looking at it All right It has in the interlinear has the word for because the word and chi can mean different things in different contexts in different ways

It can't right, right so I'm asking you do you have to repent in order to be saved repentance?

Yes, you have to repent in order to be saved and repentance is synonymous with salvation Is repentance keeping the law?

Repentance is not keeping the law the old testament law. It's if you're lying

I i'm trying to show you something It's a moral alignment and submission. I'm trying to show you something.

God's will how can an unbeliever do that? Unbeliever cannot please god

Hold on It says the unbeliever cannot please god

Doesn't seek for him doesn't do any good romans 3 10 11 and 12 does not receive spiritual things 1 corinthians 2 14

Right. He is a slave of sin romans 6 uh 4 through 6 6 through 18

So how does someone like that? repent Well, um, and I would add to uh in hebrews it says without faith is impossible to please god

How is it that someone who is a slave of sin a hater god can do no good cannot receive spiritual things how does he

Just repent in order to become saved God grants it to him god.

No one can come to the father can come to jesus unless the father draws So god grants some repentance.

Yeah, and and does god grant it to everybody? He's the author and finisher of our faith. Yes. Does god grant it to everybody?

well Uh, obviously not he doesn't so then god selectively chooses who he grants repentance and faith to right

Well, yeah god god by his grace accomplishes good, but he also saves us by his so then he is he doing this because It does hold on.

Hold on Hold on. We also have a part to respond. Okay, hold on does he he grants faith?

You've been look you've already spoken believe it or not more Yeah, because i've been very patient with you

Okay, but i'm just telling you that god is what he grants faith and grants repentance to whom he chooses, right?

Yes So he doesn't choose to give it to everybody, right? Correct So then you believe that god chooses who gets saved?

Yes Good. I just want to make sure that you believe a good reformed theology at least in that area

And salvation is referred to as repentance in acts 11 They concluded then god has also granted to the gentiles salvation unto life

Repentance unto life Repentance unto life repentance is grants it to him.

He doesn't grant it to everybody does he so then who is responsible for our salvation? you or god

There's a reason this is going to go to baptism. No, we are the one we're responsible for our response to him because You can't respond if you're a slave of sin a hater a god who does no good cannot receive these things

How do you just respond in your sinfulness? Well, god draws you god grants. John 6 44.

You're still required to repent. Jesus said unless you all repent You will all likewise perish.

So we have a responsibility to respond. You're not answering my question You're not thinking you're not listening. You're thinking you're automatically doing the oneness thing

Now the bible says the unbeliever he's not saved he's not

Regenerate. Okay. He's not born again. He's in this state He cannot come to god on his own.

He cannot at all Receive the truth. I give you the references.

He's a slave of sin. He's a hater of god He's dead in his sins. He's by nature child of wrath his heart's full of wickedness and deceit

How does he of his own free will in that condition come to christ As I said the father draws him.

I didn't say that. Does he draw it? How does he come? I know I know what you're I know what you're getting at.

I don't We're tied to the baptism Well god, okay. That's great We can god draws the person and grants them the the grace to come to him

God grants us also the measure of faith he get but he's given to each one a measure of faith

But he he also so he he he predestines us he chooses us

And in that in his will he also requires us to respond to him in faith according to what?

He predestined us and is baptism. So he predestined us from the foundation of the world Yes, okay.

Did he predestine us in christ? Yes, and but you're not uh, you're not regenerate when he predestines you.

I know you're not but he's predestined you In christ when you follow through with how he said to be born again

He predestines you in christ ephesians 1 4 before the foundation of the world, right?

How could he do that if christ pre -incarnate wasn't there? This is this is talking about a uh decision a relationship between god and us

He predestined us. No, he predestined us in christ He predestined us to receive christ to be in christ later.

We weren't he chose us in him with uh, Christ being there at that time. That's not he chose us in him before the foundation of the world

Yeah, we weren't there and christ wasn't there either jesus christ And how could he choose us in christ if christ wasn't there before the foundation of the world?

There's nothing in the text that says christ had to be there. He chose us And jesus came down from heaven

Yeah, he can't he's god who came down from heaven. Yeah, so he the person from heaven

Existed and was sent by the father Who chose us in him before the foundation of the world well that passage does not necessitate

The pre -existence, but I do believe in the pre -existence of christ. It doesn't necessitate eternal pre -existence either

I believe in the pre -existence of jesus christ All the way to the beginning of creation as the expression of yahweh himself.

I believe Created jesus is yahweh himself. Jesus christ. Wait, he's not eternal.

Is he created? As a man he is creation. No, no before you said he was

You don't believe he's eternal in the past, but then you said he's there with the father Yeah, how do you have that as the angel of the lord the invisible expression of the invisible god?

Wait, the angel of the lord invisible was he was did he have a way to him at all times?

You said you said that That he jesus the pre -incarnate christ is not eternal

I think yeah, I he's not internal. Well, he is not I'm, sorry, the pre -incarnate which is it is eternal is the eternal father

He is the eternal father who also has a visible angelic image in the old testament

To which he can be seen by by which he can be seen by the angels. He could have been seen by moses he was seen by uh

By that doesn't say that no in exodus 6 2 and 3 we're jumping around but it says god spoke to to moses said

I am Yahweh, is that an angel? That's no. Well, yes, it's god and an angel.

It's the angel of yahweh. It says god spoke to moses It doesn't say an angel says god is god an angel well

God, um had an angelic presence. I believe uh, I got that is is an angel god

I I think there is a passage that says that yahweh that the angel of the lord spoke out of the bush.

Is that incorrect? You know, it's okay. I'm asking you specific about exodus 6 2 and 3 if the text says god spoke further to moses

Right, so who the text says god was speaking. So who was speaking according to the text? God the one person of god.

Okay, and so god Said he his name was yahweh. It's a true and living god, right?

Is that the father? Yes Then why does jesus says no one's ever seen the father in john 6 46?

Who were they seeing in the old testament? Who's god almighty yahweh, but not the father

Because no one has seen it doesn't say no one has seen the father. It says no one has seen god No No, no, no, no go to exodus 6 2 and 3 and i'll show you that you're wrong

God spoke further than moses said to him. I am yahweh And I appeared to abraham isaac and jacob as god almighty.

So he appeared as god almighty. That's what he says You agree that god appeared as god almighty to abraham isaac and jacob.

Yes, I do Good and it's not an angel because it says it was god who spoke and said I am yahweh That's not an angel who'd say i'm yahweh.

That's not going to happen Go to john 6 46 What does jesus say?

Not that anyone has seen the father Except the one who's from god.

He has seen the father so Jesus knows that they weren't seeing the father.

Who are they saying? Who's not the father who's also there? Simultaneously in the old testament, but not god the father

Who's god almighty by the father and by god in in john 6 in john 6 by the father and by the uh, um,

No one has seen god at any time in john 1 18 um, it is speaking of the the

Omnipresent vastness of all the totality of who god is no one has seen or can see it says in first timothy 6

First timothy 6 16 talk about the father dwells on approachable light who no man has seen or can see Talking about jesus there.

He's no it's john. No, no, no, no because they've seen jesus the impert the the the uh,

Look, I know this verse well i've been using it for about 40 years with mormons. Yeah, that's using it right now go to john 6

I mean exodus 6 Hold on in first timothy 6 the inapproachable light that no man has seen nor can see in which jesus dwells

That is the father that is the vastness of who god is. Let's go. Look i'll show i'll show you you're wrong

I'll show you You show you you're wrong heaven of heavens cannot contain you people have not no one has seen i'll show you you're wrong

Let me put a period on here first um, if I if I may the um No one has ever seen the totality of who god is in his omnipresence internality

No one ever can but people have seen the visible expression of god as he has made himself known

In verse 13 of first timothy 6 I charge in the presence of god who gives life to all things and of christ jesus

Who testifies a good confession before? Pontius pilate Talking about god and jesus in the present tense

After the ascension of christ in there, so we know god here will be in reference of the father because it's differentiating between the god and jesus christ

Verse 14 that you keep the commandments without staying in reproach until the appearing of our lord.

Jesus christ Which he will bring about who is that? That's god will bring about the appearance of jesus at the proper time he

Who is the blessed and only sovereign who's the he? He will bring about the appearance of jesus

He is the blessed and only sovereign the king of kings and the lord of lords who alone

Possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light who no man has seen or can see the context is the father

Not the son. I have to go to the bathroom right now, but i'll My succinct answer the antecedent to he is the lord.

Jesus christ and the king of kings and lord of lords is also Parallel in revelation 19 when he comes back on a white horse and has the name written

He is the king of kings and lord of lords. So this he who dwells in unapproachable light is speaking of jesus the

Whom note the the unapproachable light who no man has seen Is the father the totality of god that no one has seen just as john 1 18

The unique god jesus is in the bosom he's in The bosom in the heart of the father when you get back we'll go to john

I mean to exodus 6 and actually take a look at what it says. All right You guys enjoying this after?

after talk here God turning the heat up on him a little bit.

I was polite really nice and easy during a debate, but You know, i'm gonna get him a little bit

And watch this when we go to exodus 6, let's see if he actually sticks with the text and watch will he jump around Actually, look at the text

He's yeah, he's moving towards reform theology Yeah, I can relate um

Yeah, and so, uh Yeah, you have to as far as first of these 616 goes

We can go over that over and over. I know what it's saying. Jesus is the one there who has been seen

He's god in flesh. But like I said, let's go to um exodus 6 Plethora of topics here, but hey, we're back on The uh, we're back on trinity and oneness

God spoke further to moses said to him I am yahweh. That's verse two

Okay, that's it is six so it's god who's talking so because it says god who's talking i'm going to conclude that it's god

And he identifies himself as yahweh Mm -hmm, and he says I that's god talking about himself.

I appeared to abram isaac and jacob as god almighty Do you agree that he appeared to abram isaac and jacob as god almighty?

Well, yeah, that's what the text says. I believe god using impersonal pronouns by the way Good and when we go to john 6 46

You keep your finger in the exodus jesus says not that anyone has seen the father

Except the one who is from god he has seen the father So who are they seeing in the old testament?

Who's not the father but is god almighty? They're seeing the visible expression of the invisible god

There's no man has seen or can see yeah It's called that he's called the angel of his presence or the the angel.

No, no, no, no, not the angel god God you brought up first timothy 6 16 doesn't no man has seen or can see so who are they seeing?

well, it's it's a um They're seeing the visible expression of god

Are they no it says they're seeing god they saw I could show you where they actually says they saw The god of israel,

I can show you another text but in exodus 6 2 and 3 God spoke and he says

I appeared to abram isaac and jacob as god almighty god's talking identifies himself as yahweh

But you said that you brought up because it wasn't a smart move you didn't realize it and first timothy 6 16 talking about the

Great glory that that is jesus who dwells in unapproachable by who no man has seen or can see

But yet they're seeing someone here. Who are they seeing? Well, they're they're seeing

The visible expression of god. They're not seeing the totality. I didn't say the visible expression.

I said Who We can go to the other they're seeing god It's paradoxically true.

No, is it no one has seen god. Is it the father? Is it the father?

God is the father. Are they seeing the father in exodus 6 2 and 3? Yes, they're seeing the father.

Jesus says No one's seen the father. John 6 46. How are they seeing the father?

If you say they're seeing the father jesus says no, they weren't seeing the father Because they can't see the totality of the father because the father is the only one through god

They can see the visible expression as he reveals himself Okay. Now you need to do me a favor here really fast.

You need to look around you like this To see if the canoe you're in is cracked Because you're sinking fast

In john 1 18 it also says no one has seen god in any time But you said that he we're seeing god here.

I would agree. We're seeing god. So you are you have the same thing It's paradoxically true. No one has seen god in his totality

But as he has revealed himself people have seen we have seen his people are seeing his image in the image of god

In john 1 18 it says he no one has seen god any time The only begotten god in the bosom of the father he has explained him

He has explained what it was in the old testament that they were seeing in numbers chapter 12 verses 6 through 8

God says hear now my words if there's a prophet among you I the lord yahweh will appear to him in a visionary dream not so with my servant moses

He is faithful in all my household and with him. I speak openly and not in dark sayings and he beholds the form

Of yahweh and exodus 24 9 through 11 moses. Aaron native and abu who and 70 of the elders of israel

Went up and they saw the god of israel and under his feet There appeared to be a pavement of sapphires clear as a sky itself yet they didn't yet He did not stretch out his hands against the sons of the nobles of israel and they beheld god

And they ate and they drank and exodus 6 2 and 3 god spoke further to moses said to him.

I am Yahweh, and I appear to abraham isaac and jacob as god almighty Undoubtedly, there are places where it's the angel of the lord representing god.

There are places where there are visions and dreams There are also places when god himself says it's not a vision.

It's not a dream. They behold the very form of god He says that in exodus 6 2 and 3 that it is god who is seen as God almighty

That's who is seen it doesn't say the glory of now when I talk to mormons and I go to acts chapter 5

They'll say well, you know, you can't see the father because joseph smith supposedly had seen the father I see what the bible says.

You can't see the father and they'll say well steven saw the father and says nope It says he saw the glory of god doesn't say he saw god the father but the glory of that father that's representing

It's subtle, but it's important here. It says in john 6 Uh 2 and 3 it says that they saw the god

God says he reveals as god almighty now you admitted they were seeing god

You also admitted it was the father and yet jesus says it was not the father. So here's my question

Who were they seeing in the old testament who is god almighty but is not god the father it's

Again, again, they're they're the only god in the old testament is the father They're seeing the image of the invisible god.

They're saying that they're seeing the logos. They're seeing the word That's the image of god is that is god almighty the word is god

Yeah, the word was with god and the word was god. I don't think it's qualitative either So what was it what god was the word was the word is god so where was it that uh, abraham saw god

He saw him under the tree at mamre Yeah, genesis 17 1 now when abram was 99 years old

Yahweh appeared to him and said to him I am god almighty Also on the mountain when he offered up.

Uh, isaac. He saw he saw um god at that point as well So did abraham see god almighty?

He did and now was he seeing the father? He's he's seeing

The so in a sense, yes, he's seeing the father and in a sense. No, no, no No, no, jesus says no man seen the father period

So who were they seeing who's god almighty, but not the father? The um, they were seeing now that the father is the only god he's the only true god right and Jesus christ is the word made flesh.

He is the monogamous they ask the only unique one and only god who is in the bosom of the father

Uh, so he is the image of the invisible god. He is what is visible of the visible god. He is the knowable uh, no, uh, he is the uh, unknowable god made known, uh, he is the uh, omnipresent god localized, okay, so prior to the incarnation

God still appeared in various ways as a man or as an angel that is still the same god being made visible

You could say moses as well It's true people Moses as well. He saw god face to face as we read in exodus 6, but also in exodus 33

He he also he doesn't see god. So even with moses. He both sees god and doesn't see god.

So go to exodus 33 33 20 and 33 11. No man can see my face where no man can see me and live

Yet he spoke to god Face to the face of man speaks with his friend the term face to face deals with personal encounter and personal relationship

And it's used in many places also in first corinthians 8 and the issue of the charismatic gifts So the trinity can answer this quite quickly.

No problem They were seeing the pre -incarnate christ as god almighty who is simultaneously there with the father So that's it's easy.

See we can answer this you're you're uh swimming No, i'm just being true to the scripture the invisible it's and it's very simple the invisible god made himself visible and uh,

The trinity can answer the the question. That's great. No problem. But that that uh,

Is presupposing or assuming a tri -personal nature of god three eternal exist pre -existent persons or eternally existing persons?

That is something that cannot be proven from scripture now now this fits within trinitarianism Okay, granted it does what we're talking about right now god has not been seen and he has been seen but it also fits with the biblical view or biblical oneness maybe some

You know, there might be some trinitarians who say get it wrong or someone is to get it wrong But it fits with my view perfectly the invisible god

Makes himself visible. So you have both not seen god in his totality But we have seen his visible expression as the logos and manifested in the flesh as jesus christ

Uh many many years ago I was at anaheim convention center. There was a oneness convention And I went there.

I don't know if charlie was there with me, but I went there across the street from disneyland What's that did you have fun

Yeah, I I always enjoy. Uh, I don't go to disneyland. I enjoy talking to uh people about the lord

And five oneness pastors came around me and we got talking they were polite

And I presented this to them where god is seen in the old testament And I asked him who who were they?

Who was it saying? I was setting them all up And I said, so who were they saying? Well, it was god the father And I went john 6 46.

No man, jesus has never seen the father And I said who are they saying who's got the father, but it must be who's god almighty, but not god the father

Three of the pastors just turned around and walked off Two of them stayed I said, can you answer the question this guy looked at me one of them looked at me very clearly he said

Yes, I do believe in the gifts. Michael. He said to me he goes I can see why you're trinitarian And I said

So here I am showing you this and you can't answer from your perspective As a trinitarian, it makes perfect sense.

I said so you're holding on to Your agenda over the scripture because it clearly says

That god almighty was seen God says he was seen as god almighty. You say it's the father and jesus says it wasn't the father

You're the one who's stuck. You gotta come out. I could put myself in your shoes and go Uh, well, let's see. How am I gonna get out of this?

It's got to be an image of some sort Well, if it's an image of then it's not god It was god almighty.

Are you saying an image of something was god almighty? No god says it says god said and he goes

I am yahweh I appeared to abraham isaac and jacob as god almighty It says it and we go to genesis, uh 17 1 it says the lord appeared to abram

As god almighty it says it So you have a problem You're the one saying

That it was god the father but jesus clearly says it's not and when you go to john 1 18 i've done the research every instance of the word god in the gospel of john

After verse 14 is always in reference to the father. I've done the homework on this.

I've done this study for many many years now This shows you that there's a plurality in the godhead and it shows you the simultaneous essence in nature

And when jesus said I came down from heaven, he is god almighty That's who it was from the old testament because it wasn't the father who was seen but it was jesus christ who was seen

Well pre -incarnate christ. That's who was seen Simultaneous who is god almighty alongside with?

the father Because jesus says I was sent down from heaven by the father. He was there with him.

John 6 38 john 17 5 Yeah refutes oneness

No, well oneness agrees with what you're saying there at the end just because everybody can't uh, Answer or have the same answer or there are different possibilities

Maybe but um you you you know, you said he was there with the father, but you didn't say eternally

So at that point I could still agree with everything. He's god almighty. Is god almighty eternal?

All right. Um, is god almighty eternal? Yes, I already told you well then it's not the father

It's not the father who is god almighty It has to be someone else another person besides the father who's eternal

Who's god almighty? Who's that going to be? No, um So we have a uh, you know as I said that uh

The the invisible god made visible. It's the same god. We have a sense in which Um moses saw god saw god and the and and and exodus 6 and exodus 33

He could not see god as well the same. Yahweh. He could not see he saw yahweh and couldn't see yahweh.

Um the no It says you can't see my face for no man can see me and live and then he spokes face to face

The only way to make sense of that is to say that one person was speaking and another one was shown And I told you do you get what my answer is that god in his infinite totality of who he is cannot be seen

Okay, he's one person And in his doesn't say that He cannot be seen but in his visible expression

He is seen that way he appears and he manifests himself and he shows himself now the trinitarians have a same

A similar problem here as well Because you have just the duality of one person the father and who's not seen and another person the son who is seen

That's oneness now. It's not if they're eternally existing together. Not just from the beginning however if no man if if if that visible expression of of of pre -incarnate christ is

Revealing god. I mean, why is he just revealed? Why is he just um, Revealing the father rather than revealing the whole trinity.

No man has seen god Why has no man only seen not seen the father? I can answer your questions the whole the whole trinity.

I can answer your questions okay um, go ahead and then i'll show you that the um, the synonymity that I spoke of that this uh,

Exodus 6 is actually the father as well as as we're talking now. It's jesus. It's the pre -incarnate christ.

It's the logos It's the word it's god. We agreed on that. It's yahweh The text says that but i'll go ahead and let you answer.

How do we know it's uh, no man has seen the father No man has seen the whole the whole why is it the father the first person and not the whole trinity?

Because jesus said no man's ever seen the father. Why did jesus say that you're gonna have to ask him

But that's what he said and we're going with what he said He said no man's ever seen the father

They were seeing god almighty in the old testament who you said was the father So who do we trust you or jesus?

I'm, not putting myself against jesus, but i'm saying that well then who are they seeing? Who's god almighty in the old testament, but not god the father i'm saying that you're assuming

That when he's saying no man has seen the father that it means the first person in the trinity rather than the whole trinity

If god was a trinity then no man has seen the father then Jesus is saying no man has seen the entire trinity god in the totality of who he is

No, no, no, it's a false representation. I've asked a specific question. You're avoiding it Who is the father of jesus christ is the omnipresent omniscient god the omnipresent eternal spirit?

No man has seen the eternal spirit and that is who the father is So there's a there's the same problem if no man has seen why you know

The if no man has seen the father Why has no man only seen not seen the first person of the trinity and not the totality of who god is?

Because god has chosen to reveal himself through the sun That's how the scriptures work because i'll tell you how it works

From the blood of the eternal covenant in hebrews 13 20. Have you ever heard about the eternal covenant?

Well, yeah, I have heard the term so covenant is between two or more parties, right?

Yes Who's the eternal covenant made with? What parties are involved in the eternal covenant

What does it say in there? I mean, there's a sense that eternal doesn't have to mean in eternity past either

We have eternal life because we're given life. I asked about the eternal covenant Hebrews 13 20

Okay, let me look it up Okay No, now the god of peace who brought up you up in the dead the great shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant even jesus our lord, so The god of peace who brought up from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep that's talking about jesus, right?

Okay Through the blood of the eternal covenant. So this means a covenant was Established already and that the father brought the son through this this covenant, which was eternal, right?

Would you agree? No, I it doesn't it doesn't mean that it was already established because it tells us when the blood when the covenant the eternal covenant was ratified through the when was the eternal covenant made

Through through the blood of christ now how when when? On the cross 2 000 years ago, where do you get that a covenant was made on the cross?

The covenant was made by jesus come by the gospel jesus coming being crucified buried resurrected now

Uh, let me see. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait Wait, you're just you're just you're just shooting from the hip here show me where it's a covenant is made at the cross

It tells you it what are we in 13 13 20. It says 20. Yeah, it says it right here the eternal covenant

It says through the blood of the eternal covenant. The eternal covenant was ratified in blood It says it right here in this passage. No, I didn't say it wasn't ratified in blood.

You keep changing what i'm saying I agree, it was it was established at the same time that it was ratified

It doesn't say that but also, you know, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, you're ignoring you constantly do that I'm calling on the car to answer.

I i'm not trying to ignore i'm trying to answer you are ignoring I ask very specific questions and you don't face them.

Please just tell me what I When can you show me a verse that says that the eternal covenant?

began at the cross Um, I I don't think yeah, uh right there.

Uh, hebrews 13 20 but uh It doesn't say the covenant was brought

Into existence at the cross it's ratified at the cross, which means it already exists

I agree that it was god's plan all along to come in the likeness of human flesh and save us from our sins

I agree that that's so who's the eternal covenant members foundation of the world. We are Who's so the eternal covenants made with us god and us?

Where's it say that? In the whole new testament. No Okay, so jeremiah does it say

Hebrews 12 I will make a new covenant with the house of israel and so forth. And where's the eternal new covenant?

That's not an eternal covenant. Where is notice what it says the god of peace who

Brought up from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep. That means the father brought forth the son from the dead

Through the blood of the eternal covenant it was manifested through this he resurrected him through the eternal covenant so who are the parties of the eternal covenant because Let me help you out

You need to study covenant theology because the covenant was that the father would not leave the son to corruption

Psalm, I think it's psalm 2 or psalm 16. They would not leave him to corruption Let me ask you this

Who was jesus sent to? Do you know who he was sent to? Well, yeah, he was sent he was sent to us the people in the world specifically the the house specifically

He was not sent to us. He was not sent to us. He was sent to the lost sheep of the house of israel He was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of israel.

Matthew 15 24 The reason is because of the covenant that god the father had made with israel if the messiah was to come through So a covenant was read that covenant was to be ratified in the person of christ and if he was 8 13 he was 9 15 through 16 the covenant is ratified and Made true and that when the new covenant comes in with the death of christ

The new covenant is not an eternal covenant because the eternal covenant is that which is already existing.

It's eternal It exists the covenant parties are the father and the son

Because the father said he would give to the son the elect That's why jesus says all that the father who gives me will come to me

The ones who come to me. I certainly will not cast out But this is the will of my father who sent me that all he's given me.

I lose none Because he says i've come down from heaven This is the eternal covenant where in ephesians 1 4 god the father chose us the elect in christ

Which is a term of federal headship Signifying the development of the eternal covenant, which is eternal in the past tense

You can't make that make a mistake Of saying that god suddenly came up with a new plan

And ratified this new plan at a certain time because then it wouldn't be an eternal covenant The covenant was made in an inter -trinitarian communion, which i'm showing you the almighty god already existed in the old testament simultaneous with the father because Jesus said the father was not seen but The god almighty was seen

Okay, so a couple things there I I um

I I disagree with your view of the covenant. I see the covenant here as temporal uh in between god and people the one god and Humanity, but also

I also affirm that god's plan is eternal and his plan was all along for a first covenant and a new covenant he says to Uh, abraham isaac and jacob

I will establish my covenant with you And then that it's referred to as the first covenant and then there's a new covenant

And yes, all of that is part of god's eternal plan But the eternal covenant is specifically the one that is ratified in blood and that is the whole subject of the book of hebrews prior to this as well and and um, you know,

I can't remember exactly the um The first covenant was dedicated with blood that's in hebrews

You know, I was skimming here at your question right at your question there hebrews 9 the first covenant was dedicated not without blood um

And then verse 20, this is the blood of the covenant And uh, let me see if it uses this word

And then in the speaking of the old covenant and according to the law almost all things were purified with blood without the shedding

Of blood there's no remission 23 therefore it was necessary that the copies of the heavenly things should be purified with these but the heavenly things themselves with a better sacrifice

For christ has not entered the holy places made with hands Uh, that's not what i'm getting at here

Um, so this is about the old cup the old covenant is inferior to the new covenant. So I think we're getting into 10 here

I think it's uh, this is I'm trying to show you that the covenant Parties are the inter -trinitarian covenant parties and it's established and supported by the idea

That god almighty was seen in the old testament who's not god the father And I think you just assume that God, no,

I don't assume it. It says in exodus 6 2 and 3 that god almighty was seen

God says so jesus says it was not the father. So who was god almighty?

Who's not the father? And if he's god almighty, he's eternal So who is the eternal god who's called god almighty?

Who's with the father but not the father who is that? And i've answered you already

I don't like my answer but I can show you that this is This is the god of abraham isaac and jacob that was seen and that it is also the father

Was it the father who was seen? Yes, it was acts. Um, why does jesus say the father's not been seen the father of jesus?

Because I as I mentioned the father is the totality of who god is and no one has ever seen him

In a sense in his totality, but people have god almighty was seen

Yes, because jesus is god almighty while it manifested in the flesh And who are they seeing in the old testament?

Who's not god? Not god. The father but god almighty god Almighty manifested in visible form

But not that so they were seeing god almighty. So so that god almighty was the father The yeah, that is the father god of abraham.

So but jesus says no one's seen the father So how how is it? No, no, how is it that they you said it was god almighty the father?

They were seeing but jesus says it wasn't it's paradoxically true I said in two different modes in his eternality and the totality of who he is

No one has ever seen or can see him in his manifestation In limited time in a limited way in time and space that is truly himself manifested in visible form

People have seen that but not all of who he is. That was my so when the bible says they've seen god almighty

That's the father god almighty they're seeing Men have both not seen god and seen god.

It's i'm asking you two different realms exodus 6 2 and 3 in that pericope

Pericope is a set of scriptures in that pericope god Spoke further to moses said I am god almighty and he it says i'm yahweh.

Excuse me He says and I appeared as god almighty to abraham isaac and jacob So did they see god almighty and you've already said yes,

I asked you who was that? And you said the father So god almighty is simply seen

Jesus says it wasn't the father And what you do then is say well, that's

The totality of god. Well, it doesn't say that it's not talking about the totality of god It's saying god himself says i'm yahweh.

I appeared as god almighty Do you think that's sufficient and what god has chosen to do?

And then you come along and say oh, no, it wasn't a totality. That's how I get out of this No, because what the jesus says it's not the father who was seen

Do you think jesus knew about exodus 6 2 and 3 when it says god was seen? But he says it wasn't the father.

So here's my question again Who was god almighty but not the father in the old testament?

It's it's an Nobody was not god almighty and not the father in the old testament now and it's and it's simple

It's a simpler answer The the oneness answer over the doctrine of the trinity we see

I as a simple simply put god invisible omnipresent unlimited infinite and god visible

God They saw god almighty but not god the father who were they seeing as god almighty, but not the father

No one's no one has seen god and and i'm saying it's a lot simpler answer god invisible and god visible

God outside of time and space it says they saw the god of israel Okay, they saw him make a point real quick.

Can I make a point real quick? It's a lot simpler answer to say god invisible outside of time and space is the one who has not been seen god as he has

Manifested himself visibly in time and space is how god has been seen not in his totality. That's a lot simpler answer and and and following what the scripture the text says then um taking another leap and saying well god is two or three multiple persons and only one of those persons became visible

Or came down in a visible sort of way While other two persons did it because you're assuming something the text doesn't say that there is a plurality of persons

Interacting and only one of those persons was made visible. No god is The one god was made visible.

I can show you that it's the father but uh after after this i'll show you that I'll tell you what the bible says let us make man the plurality of god

God almighty Is seen because god. Yahweh says so jesus says it wasn't the father

Trinitarians have no problem. They were seeing the pre -incarnate christ no problem at all And jesus says

I was with you before the foundation of the world. John 17 5. He says I was sent by the father

Jesus is god in flesh. We know that he has two natures. So it's real simple as a trinitarian

Not for you. I can say we he I can say that Um, they were seeing the pre -incarnate christ as well.

But the pre -incarnate christ is okay father Were they seeing the pre -incarnate christ they were seeing the pre -incarnate christ who is the one god

They were wait a minute was the pre -incarnate christ the father The pre -incarnate christ is the one that they're not seeing and the one that they're seeing

Okay, you can't see and not see the same time the same sense. It's a logical impossibility No, no, no, no, no, no.

No, no, don't don't don't get into into paradoxes and use as an excuse Look, this is a little you know pill container.

It's the case that i'm holding a pill container It's also not the case that i'm holding a pill container. You can't have both because You look you said it's either he was either visible

They're seeing him and it was also that he was not at the same time the same sense. It's a logical impossibility It's incoherence.

The bible says That they saw god almighty It's god almighty.

They saw Jesus said it's not the father who is god almighty Who's not the father?

Well, it is both the pre -incarnate christ that they saw but it is the father as well Exodus 6 so go to acts 3 13.

Wait a minute. Wait, wait, wait, wait So you're saying it's the pre -incarnate christ who's god almighty?

Well, yeah, i'm saying that i'm affirming that so then god Almighty is eternal, right? So the pre -incarnate christ is now eternal with the father

But you just blew your own oneness into the garbage heap Well, if I can answer

I did not say eternally with the father but the eternal hold on I know you want to respond the the eternal god

Is one in his being and when he manifests himself as the son as the word in time and space

That is himself That is himself manifested in invisible form.

It's not another person another personality You said it was pre -incarnate christ who was seen in the old testament and that it was the god almighty that's what you said

Now is god almighty eternal Yes, god almighty is eternal

So then if christ the pre -incarnate christ is god almighty who by definition is eternal then the pre -incarnate christ is eternal

Yes So then you have two persons in the godhead at least right there. Who's god almighty Well, maybe at least but not two eternal persons because the second visible manifestation, whoa, whoa, whoa, you just don't cut it yourself

No, i'm not. Yes, you are because you said the pre -incarnate christ is the pre -incarnate christ self -aware or is it some energy force?

No, I don't I don't know the bible doesn't say and not an energy force, but it's god. It's he's self -aware, but it's god

Pre -incarnate christ self -aware. I misspoke. I'm, sorry. But yeah, he is self -aware as god himself

So the pre -incarnate christ is self -aware Which means he's a person who was seen in the old testament, but it was and it was god almighty

Which means he's eternal, but it's not the father You're just digging a hole deeper and deeper

No, but you're refuting your own theology Acts 3 13 and it shows that it's the father synonymity that I showed proves oneness and and destroys trinitarianism acts 3 13 um

Peter speaking Yeah, uh the god of abraham isaac and jacob the god of our fathers glorified his servant jesus whom you delivered up And denied in the presence of pilate, uh who was determined to let him go

So it doesn't say his son jesus. I think there might be a variant in there, but it says i'll just take my translation um his servant jesus at least it's

Distinguishing jesus from the god of abraham isaac and jacob very good the pre -incarnate christ distinguished from the father

No problem, because you're going to admit that that's who the father is the god of the fathers

You already said it's the god the father in the old testament. Look. This is what you've already admitted to You've admitted the pre -incarnate christ is god almighty.

You've admitted that god almighty was seen You've admitted you have to admit that it was not god the father don now i'm asking you who is god almighty

Who's not the father and then you said it's a pre -incarnate christ and I said Oh the pre -incarnate christ is god almighty.

He said yes is the god almighty eternal. Yes that the pre -incarnate christ is eternal And not the father

I have Affirmed that there is one personal god the pre -incarnate christ is eternal and he is the father

God in god visible is the father. Is this and who was seen in the old testament who was seen?

I have a quick question about acts 3 13 Is this god of abraham isaac and jacob who glorified his servant jesus?

Is that the father? It doesn't say But it probably is god the father Yeah, it has to be god the father or the holy probably right?

It just well because usually how it's spoken of in the context of god is in reference of the father particularly when jesus is juxtaposed

With it that's generally how it works The holy spirit lays back because his ministry is to bear witness of the of the lord.

Jesus christ And he bears witness of christ he's humble in that sense so the god of abraham

Isaac isaac and jacob. That's just what god says in exodus 6 2 and 3. I appear to abraham isaac and jacob abraham isaac and jacob as god almighty

So by your own admission, that's got to be the father right there And it's the father who was who was not seen according to exodus 6 2 and 3 this study

Destroys oneness you have destroyed your own view And you have to repent of your false doctrine

If you're going to say that the christ and the christ the pre -incarnate christ the father the same one

Then you're saying they then you're saying if they're the same and they saw god almighty they were seeing god the father

Because if they're one and the same they have to say you have to say they saw the father But jesus says it wasn't the father.

So who's god almighty? Who's there but not The father because he's with the father because you said that's the father in the old testament

Then who's god almighty who's not the father? There's someone else who's god almighty not the father. Who is it pre -incarnate christ?

Who's eternal? oneness theology believes and I believe in one

God almighty who is both the father and the son and that matches the rest of the scripture From isaiah 9 6 all the ones i've talked about were they seeing in the old testament

They saw the god of abraham isaac and jacob. Who was it? I showed you already

Moses has both seen god and not seen god. My explanation was the invisible god.

They saw a visible form of him They saw the word they saw the image of god who is also god's self

Actually, it says in exodus 3 3 20. You saw the backside of god not the face. So you got to check out exodus

Yeah, I know he didn't see the face yeah, so that there's no problem But you're you're stuck here.

This is exodus 6 2 and 3 i'm hammering this over and over and over Because you need to accept the truth of who god really is

Your position is destroyed It is destroyed because you have admitted

That pre -incarnate christ is god almighty who was seen in the old testament and you've admitted that jesus said it wasn't the father therefore

Someone else is god almighty Simultaneous with the father in the old testament who's eternal because god almighty is eternal and you said

That it was a pre -incarnate christ. Who's god almighty That's eternal. You are stuck.

I can't turn this page Well, no because I did not say that I am um

I I did not say that uh Let's see

What what what destroys my argument? I didn't say that I did not say that the pre -incarnate christ was not eternal

He is the eternal god you have not proven that there that jesus that there is eternally a

Relationship within the godhead and there are three persons and one person is is is being uh manifested and not another one i'm showing you

Reality of an invisible and a visible god, which is exactly what we have in this text a visible and an invisible god

That is oneness and that proves oneness And let me see no it doesn't god almighty was seen in the old testament

It was yahweh, but it was not the father And then i'm over in exodus 3 who is the uh

God appearing to him there in exodus 3. Is it the same? Incident it might be the same incident

And god said to moses in verse 14. I am who I am Thus you shall say to the children of israel.

I am has sent me to you Moreover god said to moses thus you shall say to the children of israel the

Yahweh god of your fathers the god of abraham the god of isaac and the god of jacob has sent me to you

This is my name forever um So and then he's called also again yahweh god of your fathers the god of abraham isaac and jacob this is

The god that is referred to by peter in acts 3 13 as the one who glorified his servant jesus so this is

Distinguished from jesus this this is this is god the one person of god But you know,

I would you know, you could say the father the father of jesus, but it's not Jesus, but it is

I mean, it's not well, it's hard to say that way, but um, it's uh Distinguished from jesus

It's god the father In the old testament and it's also jesus because jesus also took upon him the name of god

But in john 8 58 before abraham was I am Jesus is both the manifestation of god and in a transcendent identity.

He is the one true god manifested in 2 000 years ago in the flesh If you here look at this

God almighty was seen in the old testament. It was yahweh exodus 6 2 and 3 It was not the father john 6 46.

Who were they seeing in the old testament? Who was god almighty, but not god the father well, um

The the according to peter in three acts 3 13, it was the father

Okay, so they were Jesus is wrong. You're setting scripture against scripture. It doesn't say it was a father

It says the god of the father abraham. Isaac. Jacob was uh has glorified. Jesus the one he delivered.

It doesn't say that he appeared there so Jesus also said who has seen him has seen the father his disciples.

No, no, no, no, no representation You already talked about that representation. He was one three now in exodus 6 2 and 3.

There's the stuff right there Okay, it was not the father but it was god almighty

Who were they saying? Who's not the father but is god almighty? They were seeing god almighty

The image of god the they they were seeing god almighty yahweh the god of abraham isaac and jacob

But he got you. I got you. You keep you keep not answering my question. Who were they seeing?

Who's god almighty? Who's not? The father you can't say the father because jesus says it's not the father

So who were they seeing who's god almighty, but not the father? Jesus wasn't referring to to this passage

People have both seen god and not seeing the thought so in my thought you're not understanding my thought father equals god

In your mind what you would say is the trinity the father is the totality of who god is

They didn't see the trinity you would say but they were seeing the second person of the trinity, right?

I would say they didn't see the totality of who god is but they saw himself his

Presence there manifested who was it the father they saw then The father was it the father they saw it was the father

Jesus says it wasn't the father John 6 46, but it wasn't the father. It was both god and not the totality of god

So you have it being god the father and also not being god the father Yeah, and just how we have in scripture. They have people have seen god, but also not seeing god

Yeah, how do you see god and also not see god? How do you do that you are in you are actually, uh, just being incoherently illogical

How do you see god and also not see god same sense same way? How do you do that?

No man has seen god you don't understand you understand Two modes of existence. I explain i'm holding this.

It's also the case. I'm not holding it. They're opposites. They both can't be true How can you see god almighty the father and also not see god almighty the father because god the father?

This is my answer. Okay god the father cannot be seen God God the almighty eternal spirit cannot be seen

He rep he manifests himself in visible form and that is himself being seen

Good, and so god almighty in the old testament was not the father who was seen good. Who is that?

No, he is the father who was seen but no you just no you said it can't be and jesus says it wasn't

No one's seen the father. Why are you contradicting the scriptures? I know why Because you're oneness serving a false god.

I had to tell you this. I don't hate you I'm trying to tell you you're serving a false god.

I'm hammering you this over and over I haven't even started to hammer you on the other issues that we could get into about subject object relationships

And the eternal nature of christ being in the pre -existence and how he has to be in that sense Right now in the hypostatic union related to the communicate with your macho

There's so much I could just tackle you with but this one's the easy one. This one's the simple one

This is easy But you're having a problem with it god almighty was

Seen in the old testament, but jesus says it was not the father. Who were they seeing this on the screen here?

God almighty was seen in the old testament. It was yahweh It was not the father So who were they seeing in the old testament who's god almighty but not the father that's the question you're not answering the question well, those are your words on this screen that you're putting yes, they are that And you're not understanding the my thinking of it

But you can't you you have not tell me then that there are three persons within god that god is not a person

You still have a lot of problems as far as no. I don't god is not a person god

You equivocate on person and being no, I don't person yet. He's three persons. No, I don't say that No, you don't say that but god is a person

Don't don't don't say I say it when I don't say it and say this is how it is I stopped representing my position, right? Look We talked about what personhood was the whole bit i'm showing you that oneness is false

I'm showing you this once I show you it's false Then it's not going to be hard to show you how the trinity's really arrived at because then you'll know the trinity's false

God is obviously more than one person. I haven't even gotten into the issue of how there's just more logical

Conundrums of how one person can exist eternally and have what's called the one and many issue it gets into some highfalutin talk

We're not going to get into that but i'm going to tell you something the simplicity is this God almighty is seen in the old testament.

It's not god the father Who were they seeing who's god almighty, but not god the father

Now what I what I and i've already answered you what your answer is what i'll write it down Again, yeah, let me say let me let me let me say it this way real quick though.

Um oneness and trinitarianism are Parallel in the in to an extent until you get to the division of eternal persons

Now we believe in a in one god who is almighty who is omnipresent Who who is eternal who cannot be seen who no man has seen

Who has manifested himself in a visible way? So, um as father son and holy spirit father son and holy spirit are each god.

All right So just what when they so when they saw Right here in exodus 6 when moses saw

The angel of the lord or the presence of yahweh right there in the bush was that um the totality of The second person of the trinity or did the second person in the trinity also still exist in heaven with the father eternally omnipresent Or was he completely right there?

They saw both him but not all of him and that's exactly what we believe about god they saw

God manifested to them but not the totality of who god is

The same thing that that trinitarians believe about the second person in the trinity yet We have one personal god because the scriptures do not teach three persons in god

Or that each each other person is not the other there is a synonymity where the father is the son

The son is the father the holy spirit is the father and the son both and he's also The son and he's also the father and that is what destroys trinitarianism because they take

I know how the trinity has arrived at by taking bits and parts of the god parts of Of scripture scriptural statements and putting them together

In a biblically based sort of way rather than just reading Submitting to what scriptures state but taking an extra leap

There is an extra leap. There's an extra leap here Now that is what the scriptures say.

Okay one god father son and holy spirit all god, but the scriptures do not teach That the father is not the son.

The son is not the spirit. They're all in eternal They speak to each other and about each other. So how are they the same person they do that?

That's what personhood is speaking about each other and to each other That's exactly what personhood is you you acknowledge that and then you deny it when you apply it

No, they don't do that for all eternity Wait, wait, wait Manifestations and you admit they do it

If you say they don't do it for eternity you admit they do it then the father and the son And the holy spirit all are persons because they exhibit the attributes of personhood by speaking

Listening saying you yours me mine and all of that what you admitted So you admit it you say not for eternity.

You're saying oh they did do it Simultaneously at least during the time of earth of christ on earth.

So you're now admitting that there's three persons Because you're saying each one exhibits the attributes of personhood, which is exactly what we say

And you said they were doing but not for eternity. Now, you're affirming Trinitarianism, you can't answer the issue about hold the old testament who was seen in the old testament.

It's the father Well, we talk about the father And we say it's not the father then who

Is god almighty who's not the father? You can't answer the question. I can pre -incarnate christ

You did say however, I got you to say it was a pre -incarnate christ Wait a minute.

He said but it's not eternal. But wait a minute. I got you already I showed you because eternal he was god almighty who's a pre -incarnate christ and you admitted god almighty is eternal

Then the pre -incarnate christ is eternal You have this then what you have to say is well, they're the same person

But if that's the case, we're back to the beginning Well, then how could they see the almighty god who's not the father and we come back to the same thing?

We go in the circle You can't answer the question from your oneness theology. You can't do it.

There is no answer. It's a perfect answer There is no answer. Who are they seeing then? Who's not god the father?

No, they were seeing god who is the father But jesus says the father hadn't been seen the pre -incarnate christ is the father the pre -incarnate christ is eternal

How is the father the only true? I mean, that's just another thrown out question But how is the father the only true god and yet jesus is also god.

I mean these are these are it's under the law That's a question that the mormons and jehovah's witnesses and muslims would ask the only true god under the law

Is going to say something like that to somebody was jesus god? Well, you say yes, because you already did in our debate Well, if he's if god the father's the only true god is jesus a true god or a false god

And so he's the father is he is he a false god? No, he is god the father man.

He's speaking to the father. This is the father This is how father son and holy spirit have

How is he the same person if he's speaking to the father because he is the invisible god

Made visible manifest. You don't you're not making any sense. Jesus has manifested in the flesh to and reveals the father

Makes perfect sense to me. No Father glorify me with the glory ahead with yourself before the foundation of the world me and you attributes of personhood before the foundation of the world right

Person to persons before the foundation of the world, right? Right Yes, but there is a there well, there's two ways that there are two persons at the incarnation while he's praying that or two manifestations of the one god

Wait, wait, wait, which says person you admit its person Father glorify me with yourself.

This is what persons do recognize themselves and others Is jesus a person?

Yes is the father he's speaking to a person Yes Then you have two persons

Yes, and they are two distinct persons in a sense, but they are the same person in a sense

And now god, no, no, don't don't you do that? It's either the case that there are two persons or it's not the case that there are two persons, which is it?

It well It's because god who is unipersonal Put on himself human personality and I ask you questions and you ignore them

Is it the case that there's two persons here or is it not the case that there's two persons here?

There are two persons here good are each of the persons divine Well, yes, they are but then you have two divine persons and you have two divine

Then you have two divine persons oneness is refuted. You can't just add a third no because this is one one.

This is refuted Oneness is refuted. The second person was manifest as god manifested in the flesh 2 000 years ago

So it depends on how there's a lot of different ways to define person But we're defining person as far as then interacting with interacting with each other

Jesus is a man but in his in in transcendent identity He's also god and their only god for him to be is god the father.

Jesus is a person, right? So this is a person Jesus is a is yes.

Jesus is God manifested in the flesh now He is god manifested to make and makes the father known and the holy spirit is both the father and the son

Come to indwell us and working in the spirit to make uh, make jesus and The god, you know, yeah make jesus known and what he said and so forth

Yeah, what you do is you ignore what I say or you slightly twist the interpretations of the words of it to make it fit

Your theology. I don't have to do that I believe there's only one god in all existence who says let us make man.

Let us go down and confound their language There's a plurality that god speaks about himself in I don't have any problem with that Yahweh rain fire and brimstone from yahweh out of heaven.

I don't have a problem with that It says hero israel the lord our god is one echad, which is a like a group

That's what it means not yachid, which is a single one thing. It's a group composite group. Yes, it is

It's definitely not that's another tributarian sleight of hand that's not no i've done research recently and that is the case

All right, because I just let me continue We see the old testament.

We see god manifested and god appears We see it And it's not god the father because jesus says it's not god the father

You said or admitted that it was the pre -incarnate christ who you said is god almighty

Which by logical necessity means is eternal so the pre -incarnate christ is who was seen who's not the father

But yet jesus speaks to the father While he's on earth and he also said he was with the father

Before he became a man because he says father glorify me with the glory I had with you before the foundation of the world.

So jesus is saying that he and his identity Were before the creation of the world

With the father But we know that the father is not seen in the old testament. Who's god almighty

So who's god almighty with the father at the same time? the pre -incarnate christ this refutes

Flat out refutes oneness theology. No, that's also that you said and that's oneness theology right there

Everything you said is oneness because you did not show simultaneous persons Two divine simultaneous persons the almighty god who was seen is not

Almighty god the father There's another person you said the pre -incarnate christ.

Who's god almighty? Jesus said father glorify me with the glory I had with you before He's identifying himself as the one who's with god beforehand.

You even said it's a pre -incarnate christ Therefore the pre -incarnate christ is the one who's god almighty who was with the father because jesus says he was with the father that's two

Simultaneous divine persons for you to drop that to ignore that is nothing more than a confession that you can't answer the difficult questions

When it comes to oneness theology, well, i'm i'm not trying to ignore anything and i'm just uh, and i'm i'm i'm i'm uh,

Trying to be true to the to the to the biblical text and what um, um what what distinction oneness theology makes is that there is a um, invisible

Aspect to god and a visible aspect to god But god is also the invisible god when he is manifested is also the visible god

So they're not seeing the invisible nature or the invisible father, but they're seeing the father manifested

That's philosophy of him is himself and that is no that that is um, that's the whole discussion we're talking about That's the answer

I gave to you like six. That's an exaggeration but four or five times here That the invisible god was making himself visible.

Now. Jesus is not referring to this is not the father here because um and in uh in acts 313

The the god of abraham isaac and jacob that was made visible is distinguished From jesus christ who was who he anointed

Okay, so then who were they seeing the only option were left in a trinitarianism If this is you know

We have to hold strictly to that was not the father is that must have been the holy spirit who? Who appeared in the bush?

I mean God invisible appeared as visible. It wasn't the totality of who he is

And nobody has seen the totality of who he is, but he makes himself visible as one person. You cannot god almighty was seen

Yes, god almighty was seen and it wasn't the father so who's god almighty who's not the father

It's not an issue the totality Because what you're doing is no you're shifting it

God doesn't deal with the issue of who can see his totality Because this is the only way you've got to even try and get out of this predicament

What you're doing is using vain philosophy And an empty deception out of colossians 2 8 you're trying to figure out a way

In order to make this make sense and what you have to do is you recognize the problem, which is why you say

Oh, it has to be the total essence of god isn't seen. Oh, so you in other words, it's a problem

So you have to reinterpret the whole thing in order to make it work That's what you're doing you without realizing it you are admitting

It's a big problem for you and this is why you have to say well the essence well, of course, it's not the essence

Duh, we know that but god says he appeared as god almighty and jesus says it's not the father

This is how you have to operate under the guise and the level of what he said and what the scriptures actually say

And it was god almighty who's not The father who's god almighty

Period this falsifies oneness theology You got to get it through your head and you got to stop believing in the false doctrine of the oneness

It's false doctrine No, it's not false. All i'm trying to do

All i'm doing is trying to understand what is being said in the biblical text What is how in what sense was god not seen and what sense was he seen?

Jesus is going to the exodus passage. He's referring to god in his totality.

He's referring to the eternal spirit People are asking for an after show it's getting late

How many of you guys want an after show do 50 minutes if you don't that's fine Because it is getting late Yeah, and it's been one two, three four and a half hours

I'm surprised my headset's lasting this long Okay We're not going to get anywhere further than this

So i'm going to just say that you need to study this and you need to answer this question And not go into philosophy about essences not being the issue

You need to really stick with what the text actually says What the text actually says is that you see all throughout scripture from genesis to revelation

You see god Invisible and god visible all the way, you know in revelation you see, uh,

You see he who sits on the throne and the lamb you see a duality all throughout scriptures.

There are some mentions of uh, father son and holy spirit uh, but Overwhelmingly, it's usually a duality god is referred to in so many ways, uh as In glory and and and paul praises god a lot a lot of times by saying to god the father and and the lord

Jesus christ or grace to you a peace from god our father and the lord Jesus christ that duality is dominant in scripture and that is exactly what oneness believes and and uh, the the pre -existence of the son as the father's visible image

Does not prove an eternal existence. Yes, it does because they turn you said you said it was a pre -incarnate christ

Who's god almighty by definition god almighty is eternal. Therefore you've you've Yeah, well that is god himself that visible image and that pre -incarnate christ is god himself not the totality

Pre -incarnate christ is god almighty is god almighty eternal. Yes, and it wasn't the father

Therefore it's god two persons right there at the very least. He's one eternal person Nope this refutes it and there has not been anything shown how the the holy spirit is distinct person

You've shown that he is divine and he's Not that he's a distinct actually I did at the beginning.

I showed you how the the holy spirit is called god Yes, he has a will he speaks we have fellowship with just like father son

Holy spirit to say I said nothing about the holy spirit being a third person isn't true Because I did and I showed that it's a systematic approach and I gave the information

And you can go on my karma website look up trinity chart. It's just a derivation out of that chart

There it is and I did And i'm i'm just attacking oneness and showing you that oneness doesn't work.

There's problems with it Which unfortunately actually that the the Doesn't that that system doesn't work because the you have not said anything about the spirit

You can't show that the spirit is a distinct person He's a divine person, but I have showed that he is a synonymous person that he is a christ in us

That he is jesus. He is both the father and the son that he is also the father he's sent by the father and Uh And the father and the son send him

And that means you have a subject object relationship And the spirit speaks to set apart for me

If you're going to say that's the that's jesus You have a problem because you already you said and I got your quotes you say jesus is in heaven right now

But then you're going to say the spirit. Oh, yeah you do I got a lot of your quotes. I got a lot of stuff.

I could attack on your quotes and your articles Because you make some mistakes in there You make mistakes my point is uh well

Obviously wasn't trying to make mistakes, but no obviously not I don't I do not consider you dishonest in the slightest

I think you're a man of integrity. I think you're deceived also Well, I I see clearly in scripture that the that the holy spirit is jesus

He said I will not leave you orphans He said I will come to you speaking of the coming of the holy spirit So you have sending language father sending the spirit.

The son has been sending the spirit you say it's both You know, which one is it? But the the spirit when he when he comes to us he is um christ in us

We receive jesus christ. He is the spirit of christ the lord referring to jesus in second corinthians 3 17 is that spirit um, so the trinity for trinitarianism to be true

Those scriptures would have to say the spirit is the lord is not the spirit The spirit is not jesus.

The spirit is not the father But on the contrary the scriptures say something different They're each the father son.

Holy spirit are divine doesn't say it doesn't even say the son is not the father You you do it.

The son is the father. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no No, you already look there's a lot of inconsistencies

You you you set up a system that you want but you're not consistent in how you apply it it's just It's 11 30 for me.

We've been on for one two, three, four and a half hours I want to get going because I have a slight after show then I want to relax for an hour

It should be one 30 for you No, i'm in idaho. Oh my bad. Yeah. Yeah, because you were saying eastern time with the whole setup and then

I forgot Yeah, you're actually right. Okay. I I do everything eastern time because it makes it easier for people.

Gotcha All right. Well, thanks matt. You've been all right A long time obviously

Well, you guys have both been great You gave a a lot of stuff to look over and I hope people take time to go back through And I and uh, they have time to pause the chat and see some of the topical articles on the things you guys mentioned

And at their leisure open their bibles and take a look at it like the bereans And compare uh, compare it with scripture as we should all be doing

But you guys have been great, right? I I didn't think we'd last this long, but you've made it interesting the whole way

Thank you, both of you and thank you. Uh rodney for uh, taking the heat I turned it up after but I gotta get started sometime, you know, yeah

Well, there's other issues I can do the same thing with justification and the issue of baptism I was just filling the water so to speak on baptism.

We could just have conversations and I can show you stuff uh about baptism, uh that Are going to mess you up now.

I would do suggest you go and look up the article Um, why was jesus baptized just see what you think see if there's if there's any merit to it because if he was sprinkled

That automatically puts a big hole in a lot of oneness theology And then

I could show you other stuff about baptism a lot of people don't know about Baptism so just type in calm.

Why was jesus baptized? It'll come up Okay, I can show you a few things about baptism. I'm sure you've heard them before sure overwhelming in the scriptures baptism for the remission of sins

No, it's not and the new and living way as our bodies are washed with pure water and our hearts are sprinkled from an evil conscience in hebrews 10

Um, the blood of jesus is applied when we come to him in baptism. That is his way. That is the new and living

Yeah, you got to understand what it is the context you're talking about in the old testament and how the application of the element to The person it's not immersion if baptism is a place where their sprinkling is related then it has to be a sprinkling upon It is all kinds of stuff so hey folks i'm going to put the after show link really i'm not gonna be on very long but i'll put it up on the calm facebook if you guys want to join in for a little bit and then

I'm, just gonna you know then take off. Okay Thanks matt and there's a link to about 15 or 16 of your articles right there on baptism if people want to produce those

And see anything that catches their interest. That's right. I love talking baptism Okay, you guys we'll see you.