Misrepresenting, Lying, and Slandering

Alpha & Omega Ministries

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

Comments are disabled.

00:12

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

00:19

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

00:27

Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

00:33

Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

00:38

White call now It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

00:43

United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

00:49

Here is James white and good afternoon, welcome to the dividing line Thursday afternoon the last dividing line of the week and we'll do our best to Be with you next week, but not on Thursday because I fly

01:06

Thursday We might be able to do it depending on how I'm Feeling when I get back if there's still anything left of me, we might

01:13

I might be able to pull one off on Thursday Well, we'll see but looking forward to seeing those of you in the New York area at the debate on Saturday with Syed Syed and Looking forward to that opportunity to discuss the by the

01:28

Jesus in the Bible and in the Quran Very important information to be shared at that particular point in Time we have our phone lines filling up very quickly.

01:39

And so I want to be able to get to those But first I want to respond to I'm not going to mention the

01:46

Fort Hood stuff right now. There's just Not enough information really to do anything. By the way,

01:51

I do have Twitter up I have the the MacBook in studio today if you wanted to get a hold of me at Dr.

02:00

Oakley 1689 Dr. Oakley 1689 is a screen name if you wanted to Communicate live today for those of you who actually remembered what time it is given the time change

02:12

One of the conversations I had today was with a fellow about John 316.

02:19

I Want to try to clarify something in regards to that. He made reference to The Video that I put up sometime around the

02:32

John 316 conference as I recall Where I once again went over the same material that I went over in the open letter to Dave Hunt many years ago and that was specifically in regards to the word whosoever or Whoever in the more modern

02:52

English form that is found in many English translations I was not saying that it is a mistranslation what

02:59

I was saying is that if you Isolate that word and read something into it.

03:05

That is not a part of the underlying text that you are misunderstanding What is being said? Specifically that the underlying text is pass hoppest you on that is

03:15

Not a textual variant. There are there Whether it's Byzantine text, you know,

03:21

I Bible Society That's the Ellen text they all say the same thing pass hoppest you on ice out on everyone believing in him would not perish and So if you say whoever believes in him the emphasis cannot be on whoever it is on the one believing

03:40

All those who believe in Christ receive eternal life. They will not perish or receive eternal life That's the point but the delimiter is the one believing many people including some very well -known people of the past Have emphasized that The word whosoever has a meaning that it simply doesn't have in the original language

04:01

There is no underlying word translated. Whoever that comes from the phrase pass hoppest you on and so that's

04:12

That just needs to be understood anyone who emphasizes the term whosoever to say well

04:17

That means everyone has an inherent capacity or ability. That's that is where the problem is

04:24

When you translate whoever believes believes is delimiting its circumscribing the range of The whoever's that we're talking about that's what

04:37

I was attempting to explain So to the fellow that I did not do a good job getting your your question answered

04:45

Part of it is it's very difficult to address things like that in 140 characters That that is a little bit hard, but that's sort of how that works

04:54

Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. I did invite a particular caller to call today

05:01

We'll get to him in just a moment But since someone had called actually before the program started,

05:06

I think it would only be fair to Give him a shot on the program here.

05:12

Let's talk with Henry. Hi Henry How are you? I'm sorry

05:37

Well, there isn't always something you can do

05:44

I mean obviously from my perspective, I think one of the things that made the potter's freedom so effective in communicating reformed theology is that it was very biblically driven

05:57

A person could read that book and they would get a very fair Accurate representation of the book.

06:03

I was responding to and then it would be focused upon the Word of God. I always think that The sheep of Christ hear the voice of Christ in the

06:14

Word of God itself and so In fact when

06:19

I was up in Montana a couple weekends ago, I made a presentation on the doctrine of the

06:26

Atonement and I I made the whole presentation basically without using any of the quote -unquote buzzwords.

06:32

I just went to the scriptures I just allowed the scriptures in their context to speak for themselves and You know

06:42

Some folks will just automatically know I you're pushing that stuff. I'm just not gonna listen I've had people walk out of classrooms just because I read the ninth chapter of Romans, so sometimes there isn't anything you can do but most of the time in my experience if you

06:58

Can sense a real heart for the Word of God then that's the direction to go. That's the foundation to to work from and maybe just a

07:08

Study through the Gospel of John or something along those lines might be the least Threatening perspective that one could take so that's the best, you know pray about it live a consistent life

07:22

Sometimes the there's there's a emotional block from something in their past that you're just not going to get over sometimes.

07:28

It's not you That is the one that's going to get to somebody maybe because of your past to the person or something like that, but Maybe it's somebody else

07:39

Okay, okay Thank you very much, thanks for calling God bless. Bye. Bye Eight seven seven seven five three three four one.

07:47

I have someone in the chat channel PMing me questions Might be better to call in or something along those lines sort of hard to read those things while doing that Maybe someone channel can mention that we are somewhat busy right now

08:02

Okay, I did ask our next caller to call in again, this was a

08:09

Twitter conversation probably the longest one that I have had and I found it rather interesting.

08:17

And so we Mentioned the fact that we do this webcast and so Wes from Atlanta is called.

08:24

Hi Wes Hey, how are you? I'm doing pretty good so Evidently, let me bring everybody up to speed here so that they don't feel like they're on the outside of a inside conversation here

08:39

This was two days ago I was at my desk and a tweet came across tweet deck that said

08:50

Dr. Oakley 16. I'm watching your videos on Mullen ism and I'm astonished at your lack of intellectual fortitude amazing and That came from you and I responded with a little bit of humor

09:02

I said your humility and Christian kindness is a model for us all brother with a smiley face afterwards and Your response was you're one to talk.

09:11

You seem to have no problem slandering and misrepresenting anyone who doesn't hold your hobby horse You then said to here

09:18

I blog I'm just pointing out that mr Y is either an idiot or Intentionally misrepresenting Mullen ism and then said

09:23

I find amazing that you attack can or Craig Geisler and have the gall to call into question My humility you sir are an enigma.

09:30

Well, I'm probably many things enigmas probably one of the kinder things that people say about me but that began a discussion that Led me to understand that you had listened somewhat on a surface level because instead you said you were at work

09:45

To a presentation I made in La Mirada, California just a couple weeks ago within walking distance of Biola University in Talbot Where dr

09:55

William Lane Craig teaches and I was specifically presenting his understanding from his book only wise

10:02

God which I was Projecting up onto the screen so people could read the citations even though given the people that were there that evening

10:10

I think many of the people there were his students to begin with so they were probably familiar with the subject as it was and So that was the foundation of the conversation and We went from there.

10:24

So I appreciate your calling I main reason I had asked you to call was when when someone says that You are slandering and misrepresenting anyone who doesn't hold your a hobby horse.

10:37

Those are pretty pretty strong words So I'd just like to know upon what basis that kind of Accusation would be made and maybe you could give us some some documentation of that Okay first of all

10:52

I just wanted to know the I did go back and watch it yesterday and I watched it closer for the citations that you were talking about Unfortunately the video didn't pan up to the screen and I didn't hear any page numbers, which doesn't really matter.

11:06

Anyway, I couldn't find my my copy of only wise God the

11:12

The thing that I really want to know though is the whole title of your video was molemnism an explanation and reputation

11:20

But yet you limit everything down to just one book that was written nine years ago when there were very few things on the subject

11:28

And you don't go into any of the contemporary stuff and so That's the that's the beginning of it.

11:35

And that's why I said that you know you lacked in our intellectual fortitude in that area because it seems like if you're going to give an accurate presentation you would

11:43

You would use some of the other people some of whom were Calvinist themselves. Okay, so so less

11:50

Anybody else? Okay, because I was at right next to Biola where the primary person who is promoting the concept of middle knowledge today within our minion ism and as a specific response to reform theology and this was at a

12:07

Bible conference at a reformed Baptist Church Is William Lane Craig?

12:13

He is the primary popularizer of the Armenian utilization of this concept

12:18

And so I felt it would be appropriate to utilize his own words wherein he discusses

12:25

God's purposes for creating the world the role of middle knowledge as the Ground from which his decree flows and which delimits in his own words

12:36

The range of possible worlds that he could create based upon the free actions of creatures

12:42

This is an argument that I have heard used many many times by many many people

12:49

Against reform theology and so you're going to utilize the currently published material by the person who is most known for promoting an anti -reformed position

13:03

Especially when you're at Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in La Mirada, California Next to Talbot and Biola because that's where he teaches.

13:11

Doesn't that make sense? I mean if you're going to respond to The popular forms as it's being presented and as it's being used

13:20

Isn't that what you'd utilize? Well, actually it sounds like a good idea, but the problem is you didn't

13:29

Number one William Lane Craig wrote only wise God there was very few other things out there on it, too

13:35

He's not really a That's not really his major area. I mean like today.

13:41

He's over debating an atheist in in Europe I believe so I don't think it's fair to say that this is

13:52

That That is the absolute best you could find on Molinism. He himself even Cites some other people.

13:58

Well Wes could I ask you something? Could I ask you something? Who presented in The Grace of God the will of man a biblical defense of Arminianism who presented middle knowledge as a possible rapprochement between Calvinists and Arminians I don't understand why you keep trying to make this into a

14:21

Calvinist Arminian debate when it's not really a Calvary it's not an Arminian specific doctrine, but held to by Catholics.

14:29

It's held to by by even Calvinist Flanagan and Bruce where not to mention several

14:36

Southern Baptist professors, okay Wes who wrote the chapter in the grace of God and the will of man a defense of Arminianism Presenting middle knowledge and Molinism as the possible means of getting

14:50

Calvinists and Arminians together. Do you know I? Don't know William Lane Craig So he's been doing this for many many years and maybe you're not aware of the fact that Earlier this year when dr.

15:04

Craig debated a very well -known atheist by name of Christopher Hitchens at Biola University when

15:11

Christopher Hitchens Asked him about false Christian churches.

15:16

Could he name? false Christian churches The only name that dr.

15:22

Craig could come up with was well. I'm not a Calvinist He didn't mention Roman Catholicism.

15:27

He didn't mention Mormonism. He mentioned as his only answer Calvinism so the fact is you're being dishonest there because he also mentioned that yeah, he mentioned that in jest

15:40

He mentioned that in jail I have played and that clip sir, I played it on the program

15:46

How can you say I'm being dishonest about it? Well Whether I answer do you give who else do you name?

15:55

I? Think he didn't want to be distracted. That's part of his Part of his strategy, but I don't understand why we're limiting.

16:01

We're talking about middle knowledge Why are we limiting everything down to just one author? Because as I said

16:07

Less as I said when you came on the air

16:20

We were at a church right next to Biola Talbot. We wanted to reach out to Biola students and Address an issue that is a major issue on the campus and the best way to do that in an honest

16:39

Forthright way would be to address the primary promoter of that view on that campus now if you don't like that That's fine

16:47

But I'm my my concern is upon what basis does that give you the right then to accuse me of misrepresentation and slander?

16:55

Just because you don't like that. We limited our subject to something that would be specifically relevant to the

17:01

Biola students. I Think you're putting words in my mouth. Let me read it. Let me read it again

17:06

Let me read it again Just to answer your question there, too I think that you didn't my accusations of slander and misrepresentation is because you didn't

17:16

They you didn't accurately represent molded them. Well You only used two quotes and you didn't bother to define what he meant by the limits or logically possible

17:26

Well, I used at least 20 quotes or I have the presentation in front of me. Secondly, you're changing your own words

17:32

Let me quote you again This is from your own Twitter blog. That's the one thing about the

17:38

Internet once you write it It's out there. You're one to talk. You seem to have no problems slandering and misrepresenting

17:45

Anyone who doesn't hold to your hobby horse I find amazing that you attack canner

17:50

Craig Geisler and have the gall to call into question my humility you sir an enigma now You didn't limit that to Subjects or anything else you said that I slander and misrepresent anyone and so far

18:03

What you said is I didn't represent William Lane Craig and yet you haven't actually checked any of my citations against only wise

18:10

God Every person that was there not a one of them came up to complain about any misrepresentation of Dr.

18:18

Craig's position because I gave the page numbers on the screen to every single citation

18:25

I gave So, how can you accuse me here? I'm not here necessarily to defend

18:32

William Lane Craig. I mean, I've asked his ministry if they'd love to debate you I I don't know if they will or won't but I don't understand why you continue to make this out to be a personal thing when we're we're actually trying to get at the

18:48

It's real simple us as everyone listening now knows the presentation that I made was specifically about one individuals understanding and presentation of middle knowledge years ago

19:10

Excuse me, do you have evidence West that he has changed the viewpoint? You okay, first of all, you start off in the video in the first 45 seconds and you set up a presupposition that Molinism is purely a philosophy.

19:28

Whereas your position is not and and you never Say what your position is

19:36

Did you watch the preceding video, sir? No, I didn't.

19:43

Oh, so you watched my presentation. Okay. Okay. All right. Well anyone who looked at my blog or looked at my

19:52

YouTube page saw that there were two videos because it was a two -hour presentation and the first video provides a biblical providence and The second then engages the subject of dr.

20:08

Craig's presentation of middle knowledge So I think maybe If you would take the time to look at that, you would see that I did spend a fairly lengthy amount of time going through biblical texts and what

20:21

I Specifically said at the beginning of the video that you did watch because I have the screen in front of me that I was using

20:27

Was that middle knowledge is philosophically derived is not based upon exegesis and I defend that especially because dr

20:34

Craig himself will admit as I quoted him numerous other times

20:40

But you presuppose that your view of causal determinism is biblically derived

20:46

Having spent 45 minutes Presenting that in the video you didn't watch

20:55

I think that that's not really a fair criticism in light of the fact that you didn't watch the rest

21:03

Regardless of whether I watched it or not I'm limiting down to just this one video where you claim to provide an adequate defense and or an adequate explanation and defense or a refutation of middle knowledge yet you posit the

21:21

Grounding objection and I don't think you ever mentioned it in the video by name Nor do you actually go into the technical terminology that's used by?

21:30

all the people on this subject plus I Mean there's been numerous articles in the

21:35

Philosophia Christi and other publications like this When you have when you have two hours to present a biblical providence and a critique of William Lane Craig's position of middle knowledge.

21:51

I doubt that there are too many people who could have covered a wider

21:56

Spectrum and made it understandable to the people who were there Then I did

22:02

And so I just would like to know less. However, once again your dislike of The limitation of the topic how is that a grounding for the accusation that I?

22:19

slander and misrepresent Anyone who doesn't hold my hobby horse wouldn't you like to right now admit that that was way out of line?

22:29

No, I wouldn't because okay then Can you found it to give us a foundation show me you mentioned dr.

22:37

Geisler, where have I slandered? Dr. Geisler? Well, I'm not gonna go off on that topic right now.

22:43

Why not? Why not? It's part of it. That's why I asked you distracted.

22:48

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, Wes I invited you no, no, no, we're

22:54

I Invited you specifically and anyone can can go on to Twitter and Look search under K I 5 2 6 3 4 9 9 for your own writings

23:06

And they will see that one of the things I kept asking you was sir. Can you please?

23:12

Substantiate your accusation of misrepresentation and slander and if you'd like to Why don't you do that for the listening audience because people make this accusation all the time

23:26

It's a it's a constant accusation on the Catholic answers web forms and atheists say it and things like that But it's very rare to get someone actually on the air and ask them.

23:36

Okay, here's here's what you said Can you back it up and I kept asking you that okay and Twitter.

23:42

Can you back it up? Okay, well the the way that you slandered dr Craig is that you presuppose your causal determinism and then you argue every one of your points back to causal determinism and you mock it

23:54

Because it doesn't it doesn't line up with your presupposition of causal determinism.

24:00

Okay, so slander Well, let's want one at a time So slander is to if you have presented a biblical defense of the sovereignty of God No, no, no, no, no, no, no, sir.

24:12

No, sir. You didn't listen to your Listen, you didn't listen to the other video

24:19

How in the world can you say that I didn't do that? You didn't you've listened to one half of the presentation.

24:26

I Gave the foundation and I just want everybody to see what you call slander is what the rest of the world calls interaction

24:36

No, you say in your video your second video Which is where you sum up all of Molin is and you say that it's based wholly on man's free will that sir is a lie

24:47

It is a complete and patent lie. There's no Molinist out there that believes that okay, so You're putting words into other people's mouths so that you can make your point.

24:58

Okay, so when I quote dr Craig's specific statements Where he says only wise

25:05

God page 130 God knows quote what every possible creature would do not just could do in any possible set of circumstances end quote and That this then delimits.

25:18

This is a quote from page 130 in the second mode of knowledge God knows which of the possible worlds known to him in the first moment are within his power to create

25:26

Hence there are any number of possible worlds known to God in the first moment of knowledge, which he cannot create because free creatures would not

25:36

Cooperate you're importing that Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Are you saying that's not on only wise

25:43

God page 130. Is that what you're saying? No, that's not what I'm saying. You're being you're being completely dishonest

25:53

I'm Quoting from the text. Will you let me finish the quote before you call me a liar for going to text?

26:01

Hence, there are any number of possible worlds known to God in the first moment of knowledge

26:07

Which he cannot create because free creatures would not cooperate his middle knowledge serves

26:13

So to speak to delimit the range of possible worlds to those he could create

26:20

Given the free choice, which creatures would make in them and quote only wise

26:26

God page 130 now Wes if you find your book and You turn to page 130 and it says exactly what

26:37

I just said on what basis Do you accuse me of lying? Well, you still make the presumption that That is based on humans that we are limiting

26:50

God when it's really his knowledge based in his omniscience That limits himself.

26:56

I mean you wouldn't argue that he could create a world where where he could have offended Would you so when

27:02

I you just said I'm still presupposing something. All I did was read what he said No, but you're presupposing and you're you're overlaying your

27:12

Causal determinism as a presupposition on top of what he says in the book does your

27:18

Your objection is that somehow and it's a variation on the grounding objection

27:23

That's why I said that you're intellectually dishonest in this debate is because you're not allowing him to define his words.

27:30

I See so when I go through this and I continue reading this you said

27:36

I only gave two quotes I gave at least ten times that many And he himself is the one who says that there are certain people

27:45

Certain possible people that would never believe and therefore God could never save them I'm just reading something into that that I shouldn't have read into that.

27:52

Is that the idea? No, that that is true, but I don't see where you get a grounds for objection on that calling that unbiblical

27:59

Do you realize what you're saying? You know you get upset because you claim that I say that you're a liar and I do say that you are dishonest

28:06

But People like Lang Craig and me and anyone else that holds to Molin ism is somehow

28:14

Antibiblical because we somehow trump God with our will Yeah, so in other words if if anyone disagrees with Molin ism

28:23

Even if they accurately represent it then they're obviously slandering anyone who holds to Molin's and you do have any idea

28:29

After all this amount of time on the air Wes I have given you opportunity after opportunity after opportunity

28:36

To provide documentation the listening audience of where I have misrepresented or slandered any of the people you mentioned and you

28:50

Or possibly people have now come to the realization that in your world to disagree with someone from a biblical perspective

28:59

Is to slander them and that way you can say someone lies And that you're coming from a biblical perspective whereas I am

29:05

NOT that that was the point that was made You're in disrespect your brethren You know, that's that's that's a good postmodern way of thinking

29:15

But the problem is I don't know the fact the matter is anyone who reads only wise God Okay, Wes the fact matter is anyone who reads only wise

29:25

God will recognize That dr. Craig Okay, I've put you on hold in fact

29:31

Wes, thank you very much for your call. It's it's time for our break And thank you very much for calling The fact the matter is that dr.

29:38

Craig does not attempt a biblically exegetical grounding in fact, he admits that the only two texts that he raises are are not unequivocal and So it is clearly philosophically derived and in fact,

29:51

I quoted all those things in the presentation And he said that the main reason to believe in that God has middle knowledge is the fruitfulness of the theological results

30:03

Folks that's what we always get when I encounter folks who Are willing to accuse me of dishonesty flandered misrepresentation remember what was what was guardian was that the guy's name the

30:14

Roman Catholic Guardian and He actually called in to and remember he asked for how was it six months?

30:20

Was it three months? 90 days 90 days. Was that about three or four years ago now? Two and a half around there.

30:26

Yeah That's why I invite folks because once you try and interact with them you discover very quickly that for most of these people

30:37

The accusation of being dishonest a liar is simply based you disagree with me. How dare you?

30:44

The the the tortured reasoning there is Is amazing, I simply would ask anyone if you have the only wise

30:54

God listen to my presentation and check the references and You will see that I never misrepresented and that I did so Very accurately and so Thanks for your call

31:11

Wes appreciate that. We're gonna take our break and be back with Aaron and Turretin fan

31:29

Bible works 8 is here full of innovative and essential tools users will have a hundred and ninety plus Bible translations 35 original language text and morphology databases 29 lexical grammatical references and an abundance of additional resources

31:44

Pastors you will appreciate the phrase matching tool which will allow you to find all of the verses containing

31:49

Phrases similar to your search verse giving you greater depth and keener insight during sermon preparation

31:54

Seminary professors and students will be enriched by the way Bible works 8 shows the most common words in the pericope

31:59

Book or chapter plus provides a wider range of formatting options and faster access to copying preferences scholars

32:06

Your research just got easier with the army external resources manager a handy tool to collect organize and display resource files from your computer

32:14

As well as the internet. Dr. James White says Bible works is the best Bible software available I have used

32:19

Bible works software for years and each new release has brought many new and useful tools to the program This is the program that runs 24 -7 on my office computer and it is the one that's running on my laptop when

32:29

I engage in Debates it is simply the number one research tool for anyone doing serious exegesis of the text for over 15 years

32:36

Bible works has assisted all users in their study of the original languages and That enables you to do one thing focus on the text and that translates to focusing on the truth

32:45

Order your copy of Bible works at a omen org and for a limited time You'll receive free shipping and a free mp3 download of the white airmen debate

32:53

The Trinity is a basic teaching of the

32:58

Christian faith. It defines God's essence and describes how he relates to us James White's book the

33:03

Forgotten Trinity is a concise understandable explanation of what the Trinity is and why it matters It refutes cultic distortions of God as well as showing how a grasp of the significant teaching

33:13

Leads to renewed worship and deeper understanding of what it means to be a Christian and Amid today's emphasis on the renewing work of the

33:20

Holy Spirit. The Forgotten Trinity is a balanced look at all three persons of the Trinity Dr.

33:26

John MacArthur senior pastor of Grace Community Church says James White's lucid presentation will help lay person and pastor alike highly recommended

33:34

You can order the Forgotten Trinity by going to our website at a omen org Hello everyone, this is

33:42

Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program

33:47

The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every

33:55

Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin Alpha Omega Ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses

34:05

Man is sinful and God is holy That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior We are to come before the

34:16

Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well

34:25

Support Alpha and Omega Ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.

34:31

Thank you Twitter feed and West just tweeted just got off a radio show with dr.

34:46

Oakley 1689 can't say it was a pleasant experience should have expected that though given his reputation

34:53

So you can you can attack someone you can accuse them of slander misrepresentation being a liar and never back up anything and If they patiently endure with you for 25 minutes or so It's their fault there you go

35:12

That's that's just just how it goes was it 22 minutes 22 minutes there you go, all right 22 minutes to back up his accusations and couldn't do it.

35:23

Why because the man's irrational That's why rather obvious, but we had to prove that so speaking of middle knowledge.

35:30

We have And I I asked our good friend turrets and fan a number of months ago to put together a

35:37

YouTube series Explaining Francis Turreton's refutation of middle knowledge from his

35:46

Institutes of electric theology, which he did and I very appreciate that. So let's talk with turrets and fan. Hello turrets and fan

35:52

How are you, sir? I'm doing well. How are you? I'm Trying to get my blood pressure down a little bit right now.

35:58

I was I was under a lot of Restraint there. I think I think my patients would have run out sooner than yours.

36:05

Okay. Well, but The One one reason one reason that would have run out is that I I'm somewhat familiar with you know

36:13

Dr. Craig's work on the subject and while you were Chatting with him. I heard him say that this isn't really one of dr.

36:21

Craig's main areas and I thought that is very strange because you know,

36:27

I've Looked at what dr. Craig is and people have recommended him to me on this particular subject.

36:33

Yes, so I checked out his One of them actually more than one of his websites, but they have the same list of his articles they divide his articles into five main categories and What the first category of course is the existence of God which is?

36:48

undoubtedly his foremost Area, but the second one Unsurprisingly is divine omniscience, which when you click in to what the articles are about Of course the they're about the grounding objection

37:02

Which is which relates to middle knowledge then another one about middle knowledge another one about middle knowledge article after article on his divine omniscience section, there's only five sections

37:13

I Are all about middle knowledge that may be one or two that don't specifically mention it and then divine eternity is the next section and guess what his view of Time whether you choose a theory or B theory of time

37:26

Which which is an interesting discussion ends up connecting back into his view of middle knowledge

37:32

Well, not only that but if as I've mentioned I have listened to dr Craig's Cambridge lectures on the existence of the problem of evil and you cannot even begin to make sense of his theodicy or his answer to the problem of evil without Recognizing his molanism his use of middle knowledge and even when defending the existence of God He falls back upon the same thing it is constant and I have spoken to I have a good friend who was a philosophy major at Biola University and He has talked about how any person who

38:10

Makes reference to reform theology. The first thing they're going to get hit with Is the concept of middle knowledge it is all over and it made perfect sense to address it within that context

38:22

Yeah, yeah so But I felt I was I was getting pretty hot under the collar myself when

38:29

I'd hear him tell you that you're being Intellectually dishonest with with his position after you just literally were quoting his words straight from the book.

38:38

I have the book myself, too But And then at the same time turn around and say this isn't one of his main areas

38:44

I guess because it's not an area he debates. He doesn't defend it with a debate which which would be helpful if you would

38:51

Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, I had students after the Shabir Ali debate at Biola University in 2006 asked me

38:59

We'd love to have you back to debate again Who would you like to debate and there's only one thing to come across my mind?

39:05

William Lane Craig and they looked at me like really I said, yeah And but I think they recognize that that's not going to happen.

39:13

I would love to see it happen but what I would like to debate is the theology that he presents that is so completely determined by this

39:24

Philosophical position that he has adopted that I think it's it's a brilliant example of when philosophy overturns biblical exegesis and inconsistent theology

39:33

I really think that that's what it's all about and I don't have anything personally against Bill Craig He sounds like a really nice guy

39:42

But when people listen to me debating Shabir Ali and they listen to him debating

39:49

Shabir Ali Questions come up like why do you all do it so differently?

39:55

Why are you giving different answers? And I think people need to understand why that is it is the theological foundation upon which we do apologetics

40:03

Yeah, so thank you very much Tarzan fan for all your work You're welcome. I have one.

40:09

I have one thought yes analogy I don't know whether you agree with it or not because I don't think

40:14

I've bounced off you before but but I'd love to hear what you think the the analogy is that malinism

40:22

Makes God into Rube Goldberg in in the sense that you know Rube Goldberg has these these crazy machines that are made from you know, a boot

40:31

Shovel a bunch of string pulleys levers and so forth. It's just whatever he can find

40:36

He puts it together and he makes this incredibly elaborate machine and it's really cool But he just he has to make do with what he's got right, right?

40:45

Well, and and I made that assertion Sunday morning at the Phoenix Perform Baptist Church, and I present this to my own people

40:53

I figured if I had taken the time to put this presentation together. I might as well use it again and Everyone's zeroed in on the same thing.

41:00

It's like well, wait a minute You're telling us that in essence God did the best he could Given what middle knowledge dealt him but who determined the content of middle knowledge?

41:11

It seems like the only way to to understand this is that there is something outside of God's nature himself that is determining this because You know the grounding objection in regards to how you can know what a free creature is gonna do

41:23

I think very clearly goes back to how God decrees that person is going to exist and what they're gonna be made up of etc

41:29

Etc, but this whole idea of well, you know, this is the best of all possible worlds This is the best that God could do and I quoted him over and over and over again

41:39

Making the statement that well, you know the cost of filling heaven is the cost of filling hell

41:44

Well, that means that's the best God can do. Yes rich now before you run off Turton fan

41:51

From a layman's perspective listen doesn't just run off. I don't want to get the wrong idea But listening to that it struck me

42:02

Very heavily that our colors issue Was that you weren't quoting the right people, right?

42:11

And that that was a little slander was that was where you weren't quoting his favorites and those

42:17

People have been writing within the last nine years And of course, that's what really matters.

42:24

And of course, you know, what have we done? Turton fans dealing with Francis Turton's writings on this issue.

42:30

Well, how old is that none of that's relevant? And and that's that's it. That's where I saw his whole objection and look how incredibly

42:39

Outrageous he got well, let's just let's just I think everyone heard and because I I I brought it out more than once The idea of slander and misrepresentation was all based upon Well, you focused on William Lane Craig and I don't think you should do that and even right now in Twitter That's what he's repeating over and over again.

42:57

I wanted to discuss Mullen ism Well, if you go back and read the tweets what I had asked him to do is come on and substantiate his accusations against an elder in a church

43:08

Of slander and misrepresentation. He couldn't do it because I haven't What surprises me more than anything of his entire approach is how is it that he gets to determine?

43:19

Who someone else gets to interact with I'm well aware of that believe me I hit that all the time people say well you should have responded this person respond that person

43:27

I'm sure Turgeon fan gets that he'll you know Respond to one particular Roman Catholic writer and what's the response?

43:33

Well, you should respond to this Roman Catholic writer and then you respond to that one They'll say we should have responded this one That's you know

43:39

You have to allow people to see those things and trust the audience is going to see those things And so I want to thank you

43:46

Turgeon fan for calling in especially since I saw someone recently Refer to you as my sidekick

43:51

And I just wanted to say publicly that I would be honored to be your sidekick any time that you that you want one

43:58

However, I do need to check on whatever kind of costume you require your sidekicks to wear first Little levity to lighten things up I'm gonna get on a plane tomorrow morning and Hadn't do a debate on on Islam in New York City for crying out loud.

44:23

And here we are discussing this kind of stuff It's funny. Well, let's let's shift gears a little bit here and talk with Aaron.

44:30

Hi Aaron Good Yeah, I am

44:41

I But to be honest with you it has always been a necessary evil to deal with It's a little bit like eschatology to me in the sense that I I just haven't found it to be something that I can be be overly zealous about I've written on the subject

45:01

We've certainly talked about Federalism and new perspectivism and and we've delved into those topics a number of times in the past The problem with dealing with Norman Shepard is there

45:12

It's difficult. It would be a very very time -consuming thing To invest the time to look at all of the different sources

45:23

That that someone might say is relevant to determining what Norman Shepard's perspective is

45:30

In essence as I understand it. He objects to the the concept of any type of covenant that would involve merit

45:39

There's there's been so much written about him both in defense of him and against him

45:45

That I think it's just wisdom on my part to refer people to For example a guy waters or someone like that Who is writing specifically in that field?

45:57

Than to invest my time in it because it's just it requires a tremendous amount of involvement

46:05

Just to make sure that you're tracking with how people develop their theology over time and there's even stuff about Greg Bonson defending

46:13

Norman Shepard and and all the rest of stuff and It's it's also relevant to my debate with Doug Wilson because it does seem to end up leading to Somewhat of a concept that Doug Wilson presented that is that a

46:31

Roman Catholic is an Unregenerate Christian were to grab them by their baptism that they are held accountable for What their baptism commits them to?

46:43

because Trinitarian baptism Accomplishes something in that sense and of course my perspective is

46:49

I don't care what names you use what water you use What method you use if you don't have the gospel as the actuating element?

46:59

it's not Christianity period end of discussion and Yes, oh

47:05

Okay, I don't mean to cut you off. Oh, you got somebody calling. Okay. I'll let you go. Oh No, no.

47:11

No, I was I just wanted to ask you something as far as guy waters

47:17

Is there anything you could recommend because I'm currently involved in a debate with my pastor over the whole

47:23

Norm Shepard thing and he basically sees it as a You know tempest in a teapot and you know

47:29

Norm Shepard's correct And I'm kind of like I don't know how to handle it to a certain extent well probably what you'd want to start with is

47:42

There's two books Justification and excuse me justification and the new perspectives on Paul a review and response

47:50

Which is available. It's published in 2004 and in his 2006 work, would you be more?

47:56

Specific federal vision and covenant theology a comparative analysis by guy Prentice waters and he

48:02

Calvin Beisner and Both of those are available on on Amazon Okay.

48:08

Okay. Probably the second one would be more directly Relevant to your particular question the federal vision of theology, okay

48:19

Okay, which is kind of odd because he's not covenantal. He's NCT Um, yeah, that is odd that is that's a very odd combination, but but you might want to take a look at it, okay

48:31

Okay. Thanks Aaron. All right. God bless. Bye. Bye Let's talk with Michael hi

48:37

Michael. How are you? I'm doing okay. I just want to make sure

48:43

I'm going to a radical view of justification by faith Oh, you were asking in channel here a few minutes ago.

48:48

Yeah, I'm the crazy guy. I apologize It's just sort of hard to type and talk all at the same time

48:57

That's okay, what's up? Oh Well, I believe that we're justified by faith alone.

49:03

I just both the faith that justifies is also accompanied by works and Of works as a lifestyle

49:11

All right Now the question, you know the

49:17

Westminster Confession of Faith the Larger and shorter catechism I think it's the larger catechism specifically is where the the language came from initially and some my

49:26

Presbyterian friends can correct me on this if you if you wish, but we're saved by faith alone, but saving faith is never alone and so the the dividing line shall we say is

49:39

Not the recognition that God is conforming us the image of Christ and therefore we have been predestined to walk in good works

49:48

We have been these are the these are the things that we are saved unto in Ephesians chapter 2 verses 8 through 10

49:57

We are his workmanship created Christ Jesus unto good works with God has before ordained that we should walk in them

50:04

The the problem comes in when someone says that the works that we do in Christ Add to our justification or become a part of the ground of our final standing before God Because this then adds these works which someone can say all they want are done graciously and only because of God's grace

50:28

But if someone says in essence that those add to the perfect righteousness of Christ is imputed to us

50:36

That's where the problem comes in that really becomes I think the dividing line. Do we stand? solely and completely upon the righteousness of Christ that is ours and that we do good works to glorify

50:49

God out of the motivation of love or do we say that the actions of Christ make it possible for us to do good works, which then have a

50:59

An element in our justification before God that's that's where the problem exists and people are always for some reason sliding down that road

51:08

And causing problems because it it eventually involves Inserting man in such a way that we can again end up controlling salvation rather than all the glory going to God Okay, okay well that pretty much clears it up it's comforting to hear that because I was just recently reading some stuff on federal vision trying to Find out what it is because the

51:28

Wilkins lives right around the corner So I was trying to find out what they believe and I started reading their views on justification

51:34

I couldn't tell it that's what they believed and if so, did I fall into their well there

51:40

There's part of the problem is that the 2001 as I recall pastors conference at that church with pastor

51:49

Wilkins and Steve Schlissel and Doug Wilson and so on so forth.

51:55

That's where Steve Schlissel mocked the idea that justification is the mark of the standing or falling

52:02

Church and They did come to many the same conclusions as the new perspectives on Paul at that particular conference.

52:10

And so there have been a number of statements that have been put out by entire Presbyterian denominations actually on the

52:17

Perspectives put there and the same book that I was just recommending the previous caller by Guy Prentice Waters and he

52:23

Calvin Beisner Would be one that you would want to look at in regards that subject. Okay. All right.

52:28

I appreciate it. Thank you Thank you, Michael. God bless. Bye -bye All right, so we're going to get through our calls today.

52:34

Let's talk with Caesar. Hi Caesar. How are you? Hey, look the way I Had a question about Islam.

52:42

I remember you had mentioned Quite a while ago that there was a certain book that you wanted

52:48

There are at least that you recommended would be a good intro to Islam and I don't remember what that book was

52:54

Yeah, it's called an induction of the Quran by Last name is

53:00

Elas Elas s it's a Zondervan publication. I just Minimize the window here

53:06

Let me see if I can pull it up for you real quick to give you the exact because I'm not in my Here it is understanding the

53:13

Quran a quick Christian guide to the Muslim holy book by Mateen Elas 2004 publication from Zondervan Elas is reformed and it is more than just an introduction to the

53:26

Quran but far more than that and you might not agree with everything but I felt that the insight that it gave was

53:36

Was really very very helpful and it's it's not that expensive a book either it's less than $12

53:42

So that's that's that's well worth it Okay, I know there was also the I don't know if you had seen them

53:49

I think it's like Christ on campus initiative where they've had articles. Um, I think the

53:55

Carson was like the general guy in charge But he had mentioned that there there was an article on an intro to Islam.

54:04

I think is Chalket no carry. I don't really know Good question, that's not ringing any any bells for me right now

54:18

There are all sorts of such books out there I just don't like to recommend things because I can come back to bite you because You know if you haven't looked at it then there might be stuff in there that actually goes directly against what you yourself are saying and so I'm not that name isn't isn't ringing a bell off the top of my head.

54:39

I mean, there's all sorts of Cutting -edge material always being posted on answering dash islam .org

54:47

That sometimes you don't really understand why it's being posted unless you really are getting into Islamic apologetics

54:52

But there's a lot of introductory articles there as well. That would certainly amount to Three or four or five books easily that a person could read there.

55:01

So that would be another direction to go Yeah, I I mean that that one is more of an article.

55:08

It wasn't a book. Okay. Okay. Yeah I wasn't familiar with it. And if you all would just pray for me

55:13

I am trying as best I possibly can To not only update the the

55:18

Herald camping book finish the the Beckwith work, but I really want to write the book I've talked about more than more than once Which would not take a lot long if I just wasn't traveling and debating and doing everything else a gospel presentation for Muslims On the call of the gospel

55:33

I it's burning in my heart to do it But I'm sort of running around with my hair on fire, which most people say is probably not a possibility

55:42

And it's just very very difficult to carve out the kind of time you need to do that to get to the

55:49

The ermine stuff I need to be doing A lot of folks don't realize we are a very small ministry.

55:55

The entire staff is sitting within 12 feet of each other right now I read and a lot of people who crank out lots of books have secretaries and editors and research people and While my good friends in our chat channel have been very very helpful

56:10

Turretin fan For example is I don't want to embarrass guy, but he's just absolutely brilliant. And when

56:15

I ask folks John Mark and just all sorts of people in our chat channel, they will help me but there's only so much that people can do in that context and so There is a level of frustration on my part because I can't get to these things as fast as I once did but it's also moderated by the fact that I realize the reason

56:33

I'm not being able just because I'm having opportunities to do what I'm going to be doing Saturday and Speaking to Muslims about Jesus in the

56:40

Bible in the Quran and things like that So I have to you know, I look at it that way So I want to get it out and I will you know pray toward that end.

56:47

I'd love to be able to do so Yeah, I'd be really wanting to read that book All right,

56:52

Caesar. Thanks a lot. Thank you. Okay. God bless. Bye. Bye. Bye All right, well, I think we timed that one about as well as you could possibly time something in fact almost like we planned it

57:03

We got about 30 seconds left. Can you get any of the Geisler sermon in there? You know, I had it queued up And I fully intended if Wes didn't call to get to it because a lot of folks found the last one to be very useful but we are at 34 minutes and three seconds of a one hour

57:22

Sermon so we are over halfway through And I will I will be taking it with me on my

57:30

Mac and so hopefully we'll be able to Do that while I'm on the road

57:35

It's a little bit easier to do when I'm in a hotel room where it's not quite as easy to do phone calls and things Like that, so we'll we'll get to it.

57:41

We'll get to it. But thank you for listening today I hope no one was overly offended that I took 22 minutes.

57:48

But once again when you are constantly Attacked you see yourself being attacked all the time.

57:54

Oh you slander people you misrepresent people. I I Never do so purposefully and the vast majority of instances when

58:02

I challenge people show me How many times does anyone come on this program and been able to back up their their accusations?

58:09

They can't do it And I think that says something and by the grace of God, that's the way we'll keep it in the future

58:16

So pray for this weekend I know Rich is working on getting all the debates you've done in the past out and I just keep going out and doing more

58:23

Of them just keep piling them on so that You'll never catch up. Well, that's the way it's supposed to be I guess so thanks for listening to my line today

58:30

Pray for us this weekend The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

59:35

If you'd like to contact us call us at 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or write us at p .o

59:40

Box 3 7 1 0 6 Phoenix, Arizona 8 5 0 6 9. You can also find us on the world wide web at a omen org

59:47

That's a o m i n dot o RG where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks