Dale Partridge: A Cover for Glory: A Biblical Defense for Headcoverings

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Exploring Theology, Doctrine, and all of the fascinating subjects in between. Broadcasting from an undisclosed location.

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Dead Men Walking starts now. Well hello everyone, welcome back to another episode of Dead Men Walking Podcast.

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And we appreciate them sponsoring the show. But with that being said and the business out of the way, we want to jump right into it today.

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I know we usually do a little talking and a little this and that, but I want to get right into our guest.

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He's a pastor, author. He's been on the podcast before. And I will say he was on probably in the first four or five months of the podcast being around.

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We're coming up on, let's see, 2020. So we just came up on three years. So we appreciate him lending us his time when we were just a new little sputtering podcast.

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He's the founder of relearn .org. And he has a new book out called Cover for Glory. I'm about three quarters of the way through it.

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And we're going to talk about that today because this is something that I've been very curious about. I absolutely loved that.

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I saw the forward was by our mutual friend, Pastor Joel Webben, because Joel and I have discussions about this through text off and on.

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And when I saw this book, I said, I got to read it. We got to get him on the podcast and talk about it. It is Pastor Dale Partridge.

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How are you, Dale? Hey, brother, I'm excited to be here. Have a conversation that I think the church needs to have.

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Yeah, well, that's kind of my first question. We're going to put your bio and stuff up on the link to the episode.

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Usually we give everyone a short bio of our guests you've been on before. I think a lot of our listeners probably know who you are.

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So let's just jump right into it. Why a cover for glory right now? Why write this book for this time?

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Do you believe it's needed? Was it something on your heart? Was it a personal conviction? I think I might know some of those answers since I'm into the book, but let our listeners hear what the reasons were.

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Yeah. So about 10 years ago, my wife and I had been confronted with this doctrine and it was a conversation starter back then.

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And we did an exegetical work on the text. I walked through it piece by piece for maybe two, three months.

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And my wife actually came to a conviction of that doctrine with me together at the same time.

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And she's been covering her head for 10 years. And so this is not a new doctrine for us, and it's something that we've been walking out for some time.

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We did a podcast on it maybe five years ago, and it actually happens to be the most popular episode that we have on our podcast with over,

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I don't know, 300 episodes or something like that that we have now. And so we noticed that there was a trend of the discussion continuing on.

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I think that head coverings for a season maybe a decade ago had a legalistic tone.

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They were characteristic of some of the groups in the church that had more of a legalistic doctrine of theology.

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And I've seen over the last maybe five years more and more Reformed churches, Reformed Baptists, Presbyterians, having conversations and discussions about the topic of head coverings.

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And so I essentially told my wife, I said, I think it's time to write a book on this issue and really do a deep dive.

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Now, there's been a handful of books that have been written on the issue. They're either too short and not a verse -by -verse exposition of the text, or they're too long, which is

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A Good Order in the Church by Dr. Leslie McFall. Fantastic book. It's actually a free book you can get as a

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PDF, but it's 572 pages. And you think, how can you write 572 pages on head coverings?

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Well, you can. It talks deeper about the issue of headship. And so you cannot separate head coverings from headship.

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And so if you believe in the doctrine of headship, that's why we have head coverings. There's a connection there, a natural connection there.

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It's why it refutes the idea of wedding rings or modest dress. No, the doctrine is the doctrine of headship, and therefore we have head symbols to represent that doctrine.

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And so, yeah, I thought I was going to write a book that was maybe going to be like 80 to 100 pages, but it turned out to be almost 200 pages.

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It's probably the longest book that I've written and probably the most intense book that I've written. And I had to spend,

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I mean, hundreds of hours of research and study to try to get back in the weeds of...

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Because for the last hundred years, the church at large has not been adopting this practice. So I had to go back to the 1800s, 1700s, 1600s, pre -Reformation era even, and looking to the history of this biblical practice.

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Yeah, that's good. And right off the top in the first few pages, you come right out and you go, well, one argument that people make about head coverings is it's not a salvific issue, right?

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And you kind of debunk that. For the listeners, what they will find in the book and what your position is, what do we say to someone who says, well, it's not a salvific issue?

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It's not that important. We don't have to, you know, that was for the past. We're going to get into the cultural issue of it too.

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But I've had people say that it's a secondary issue, right? And look, I'm a Reformed Presbyterian. I know lots of Reformed Baptists.

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I was just at a conference a few months ago. And, you know, I got, I want to say belittled, but they were joking with me about the baptism issue.

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It's a secondary issue. So what do we say there? Is this an important enough issue to actually look into, read this book and say, we have to seriously consider it?

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Or do we just say, secondary issue, and most people don't like it, don't think it's important, whatever the reason is.

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Yeah, so someone's going to be wrong. And if someone's wrong, someone's in sin. And so the reality is

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I do believe that it's, if, if it is a command, which I believe it clearly is, I think, I think the book is a, you know,

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I was talking actually to Joel Webben and I said, there was a particular individual that I'm not going to name that.

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I said, Hey, I think we should do a debate with this individual. And Joel said, there's no way that he's going to debate you on that because he knows he's going to lose.

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You cannot win, or you cannot, you cannot win a non head coverings debate. You would have a better chance of winning as an

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Arminian against a Calvinist than you would about no head coverings, the head coverings, the text is too clear. And I agree.

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I think that's true is that we are, when you look at the text, you cannot get around it.

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It is a biblical practice. And if it is a biblical command and we are not following it, someone's going to be wrong.

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And it is an issue of sin. It's an issue of disobedience to the scriptures. It's not salvific, but it's an issue that matters.

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The same is true of, of the baptism debate or the pedo communion debate, or someone's going to be wrong.

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Now, luckily we live under grace, but it doesn't mean that we aren't aiming to please

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God with our obedience by searching the scriptures and conforming our will to them. And so, you know, another thing that I didn't add in the beginning, another great reason that I wanted to write this book is because obviously we live in a massively gender confused era.

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And so that's where I was going next. Yeah. Every, every generation of pastors has their fight.

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And so, you know, the, the, the generation before us, the, the

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MacArthur's and Piper's and Keller's and Sproul's, they were fighting prosperity, gospel, gospel clarity, and it was required for them to be incredibly robust theologians to lay out systematics and gospel clarity in a way that we needed at that time, this generation.

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I mean, I go, do we really need another book on the systematics of Calvinism right now?

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I don't know if that's really the issue. The issue is that we do need more clarity on what it is to be a man, what it is to be a woman, what it is to be a traditional sexuality, a traditional view of, of gender.

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We need biblical authors and pastors to produce content for those means.

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I mean, that's my book, the manliness of Christ, my, my kids book, Jesus and my gender, this book would cover for glory.

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That's what I'm fighting against. I think this generation needs to. And again, this is an issue about gender clarity.

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I mean, this goes, this whole discussion is about Genesis. It's rooted back in Genesis one through three.

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And so we absolutely need to be ready and willing to have a conversation about the, the clarity around men and women that comes from a doctrine like this.

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Yeah. So that's kind of where I was going to, cause I did have a question about this. Um, I think it's page, uh, right in the beginning, page 14, you kind of bring up the gender issue that we're living in right now.

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And you, and you almost make a point that the, uh, the, the head covering also can can distinguish between genders.

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And I was curious when I read that, I thought, well, to me, the command has always been when in, when in assembly, when in gathering, would head coverings then have to include in everyday life, when out in the marketplace and in society and things like that, if we're using it as, as we're not mainly using it as that, but one of the reasons is, uh, you know, determining gender.

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Is that something that you'd believe a woman would need to be wearing everywhere? Uh, no,

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I don't think that women need to wear it everywhere. Cause that's not what the text says. The text says when a woman prays or prophesize.

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Now we need to obviously define what prophecy means in a generation like ours, but I don't think that it means that if you're at, uh, someone's, you know, uh, you're at a women's night and the women pray together,

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I believe a woman should be covering her head because she's praying. Uh, now, and the thing is, is that imagine if we're all at a

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NASCAR event and they open up in prayer, uh, are you going to leave your hat on? No way.

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There's no way you're going to do that. If you're, if you're leading on Wednesday night, uh, a Bible study, are you going to wear a hat while you're preaching?

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Certainly not. And so why are we going to be inconsistent where men always take their hats off when we're praying wherever we are?

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Uh, but then say, Oh, the head coverings are just for church. And they go, well, I just don't think that's what the text is saying.

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Because if you look, the transition in our first Corinthians chapter 11, uh, is continuing on from chapter 10 to chapter 11.

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And the transition is in verse 17. He says, but in giving this instruction, talking the antecedent to this is the, the forward instruction.

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He said, you know, we just got done talking about head coverings, but in giving this instruction, I do not praise you because you come together, not for the better, but for the worse.

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And so this is the first time in first Corinthians that talks about when you come together and it says in verse 18 for in the first place, when you come together as a church.

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So this is the first mention of the church coming together and the rest of chapter 11, chapter 12, chapter 13, chapter 14 is all about corporate gathering.

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And so I think that, um, yes, that, that first Corinthians chapter 11, one through 16 is the final piece of common

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Christian life. And chapters are versus a chapter 11, verse 17 through 14 is corporate

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Christian life. Um, that's what also Dr. Leslie, um, McFaul, who is a man, by the way, um, it's kind of like the, uh,

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Lorraine Bettner, uh, thing there, you know, it just got a kind of a feminine name, but he, he, uh, he has the same conclusion, uh, as me.

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And so again, are we going to be inconsistent? No, if you're praying as a wife or a woman anywhere, you should be having your head covered.

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Now if you don't have your head covering with you, do you turn it into a legalistic issue where you're like, Oh God, not going to hear my prayers.

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No, the Lord's going to judge the heart. Was it just, was it spiritual laziness that you're just not having a covering with you?

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Or is it just, you know, it slipped my mind. And so like what my wife does, if she forgets her head cover, she actually just covers her head with her hand.

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Um, but she generally has a head covering in her bag or, or with her, or sometimes she just wears it all day long because she'll just like wrap a tie around her head or whatever, because she's, she's praying often.

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And, uh, again, this is consistent with what we see throughout church history as well. So before we get into the why of what you believe that text is saying,

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I would say you did a very nice job in the book of creating some historical context for us, which

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I always appreciate as a good reformed person. We always love to see the church history. Right. And you made a, and you were very honest.

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You said the majority of, of reformers and early church fathers that talked about this were, were talking about it in the positive that they supported it.

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Now you did point out there were a few notable, uh, church fathers and reformers that said, no, we think it might be cultural or something like that.

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I think, and, and maybe you can, you're, you're on this subject closer to it than I am, but I feel that sometimes, uh, partnered with a few key, uh, reformers or church fathers that, that agree with not wearing it and with the overwhelming, uh, cultural wave of feminism over the last 80 years, even my reformed brothers and sisters go, no, we don't need it.

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I have an excuse because there's three or four guys back there that were really well known. And that, uh, you know, we look up to historically as, as fathers in the faith and they don't think it.

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And on top of that, it just seems weird because of the culture we live in. Um, is that what we're combating when we're, we're looking at this issue in your view or there are other things that, that are to have taken place here as to where largely the church does not adhere to this.

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And only in the last a hundred years or so, like you said in the book. Yeah. Uh, so if you look at every denomination across church history, at any moment from the apostolic era to the early church era, to the middle ages, uh, the anti -Nicene era, the post -Nicene era, the, uh, pre -reformation era, the reformation era, all the way up until like the early 1900s, the vast majority,

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I'm talking like 95 % majority of denominations and pastors have all interpreted this text as a positive, uh, biblical non, it's not a cultural argument, but actually for the church for Christian women and men today.

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And so that that's just, there's very few things in church history that you can actually look and go wow.

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95 % of pastors have interpreted this way. And then all of a sudden in the 1900s from like, and even early up until like 1950, all of a sudden, 1960, we just stopped doing it for some reason.

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Hmm. I wonder why, what happened in 1960 that could have changed a cultural moment.

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And we start to see the direct correlation with the removal of head coverings and the introduction of second wave feminism.

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And it is continued on. And so, I mean, you also see other things, right? If you, what happened in the sixties, well, what happened, what happened to women's hair?

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Well, it got shorter. What happened to men's hair? It got longer, you know?

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And what's the first thing to happen when someone becomes a feminist, they, they, they cut their hair short and have it short and they look like a boy and, and, um, what, what, you know, dress essentially dress codes signal a worldview.

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And we understand that the homosexual community understands that the transgender and lesbian world understands that Christians need to understand this is a

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Christian dress code. It's God's way of symbolizing the gender distinctions between men and women before an onlooking world.

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And, and, and so there are a variety of things. I mean, again, throughout church history, there's a handful of guys like Charles Hodge had a, had a loose interpretation of it.

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And I respect Hodge, you know, uh, he's an incredible theologian, but he's a rarity. Um, you, when you have like the norm, you know,

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Spurgeon is pro, uh, pro head coverings and RC Sproul even. And, and, you know,

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John Christosom and, and Calvin. And, you know, and so there's just a variety of guys that we can lean into.

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The one thing that I want to mention is that, you know, the connection between the loss of head coverings and the ordination of women in the church is really important because when the visual symbols of authority and distinction are eliminated, eliminated, the qualifications for authority are forgotten.

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Okay. So, so when you have a church filled with women who cover their heads, uh, there's a visual distinction of authority and gender.

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We all know why they're covering their heads. They know why they're covering their heads. There's a distinction of authority that's spoken of in scripture between males and females.

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We know that there's an authority that comes in the church and the home and the, and the civil community, uh, that men have over women.

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We know that women are helpers of men. We know all these things, but when you remove the visual symbols of authority, the qualifications for that authority are forgotten.

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And so you, what you get is an egalitarian visual. We're the same. And so the idea of ordination of women just comes right off the heels of those gender distinctions being removed.

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Obviously in a time like today, this is an important discussion because we do need gender distinctions in our church because we obviously are blurred the lines of androgyny and we are lost on this issue.

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No, that that's so true. Um, and I would say too, to then, so we have a couple of reasons here.

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We have gender distinction. We have a visual visualization essentially of authority and the created order.

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Are there any other reasons that you see in, in, in Corinthians, uh, chapter 11 there in Corinthians, uh, why

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God has commanded this and why it would be good and right to, to obey it as a woman and as a man who leads your family.

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Um, is, is it anything? Cause I've heard things too of, you know, uh, the hair is a woman's glory.

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It's her covering it. We don't want it to distract from the glory of God when we're in gathering.

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Is there any of those elements in it too, or just those two that you've touched on already? Yeah. So a couple of things,

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I mean, there, there's a lot of things I want to anchor it first in. Um, I'm going to just kind of reference some of the stuff in my book.

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When you write a book this long, it's hard to just remember it all. Um, you know, so there's a handful of things that this is all grounded in creation and we need to understand the difference between Adam and Eve, man and woman, the purpose and identity of man, the glory of man, the authority of man and the glory and authority of woman.

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And so Adam, what we see in, in terms of just creation, we need to understand cause this really helps.

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Uh, this is also where Paul is anchoring his argument in the first verses of, uh, first Corinthians 11.

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So one is that Adam was created before Eve. And so we know this is that, you know, they're not created simultaneously.

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God could have created them instantly yet God created Adam first. So there's a chronological element there of hierarchy that we have to admit.

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And so man's existence didn't require woman's existence. And this is in contrast to the woman, the woman's existence was actually dependent on the man's pre -existence.

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Okay. So that that's important. Uh, number two, uh, Adam was given God's glory to be a ruler, uh, like God as a vice region, uh, over all creation, including

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Eve. Uh, he was given that right to rule over her. And so he was essentially, uh, you know, this is, uh,

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God has made man as a biological ruler. It's something that's in men that is not in women. And that's part of our, to be the glory of God because men are, uh, the image and glory of God.

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Um, we are rulers because God is a ruler and that's God's glory is ruling.

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And we have that glory upon us. Uh, number three, Adam was given the instructions of morality in the garden separate from Eve.

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And so he becomes essentially the patriarchal, uh, representative for Eve as well as in terms of he's responsible for Eve.

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I think I saw recently, um, you know, Doug Wilson was talking about the concept of biblical patriarchy and he,

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I think he did a really good job explaining that a man is, is responsible for his wife's sins.

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He's not guilty of them, but he's responsible for them. And we see actually

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Christ coming down and he takes responsibility for the sins of the church. He's not guilty of them, but he takes responsibility for it, paying for it on the cross.

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And so there's some, some beautiful imagery here, but, uh, Adam is authoritative over Eve because he has been given the instructions of morality in the garden.

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And when, when, um, Adam and Eve sin, so Eve sins because she's tempted and deceived.

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Adam sins because he actually doesn't want to lose Eve. I mean, this is the general interpretation of this passage is that, that Adam sins not because he's deceived, uh, but because he actually loves his wife so much and he doesn't want to lose her.

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He knows what's going to happen because of what she did. So he actually joins with her. And so he sins willingly versus her being deceived.

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This is obviously first Corinthians or sorry. First Timothy chapter two mentions this concept as well. Um, when, when they get caught,

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God obviously knows omnipotent or omniscient, but when they, their Adam is called and not

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Eve. And so God doesn't look for Eve and talk to them both. He talks to Adam because Adam's responsible for the sin of his wife.

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When Eve and Adam are, or when Adam is expelled from the garden, it doesn't say that Eve is expelled.

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The only one that is expelled is Adam because Eve's expulsion is included within Adams. And so, so, so you start to see this like, again, there's, there's a different nature.

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Uh, Eve was given to Adam as a helper. Uh, and so there is, uh, uh, again, a sense of, of authority.

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There is no institution where the helper is actually the leader. No, uh,

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Eve is made as a helper for men. And so these are important truths. Um, Adam was given the name, uh, the right to name

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Eve and also name her sex. Uh, and so, uh, you know, this is demonstrated again, further authority that he had over her.

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And so, uh, all of this happened in a world without sin. So all of these structures, so this is, this is how

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God designed it even when there is no sin in the world. And that's an important distinction.

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And so what, what's happening here is that the, this headship doctrine is carried out through the old

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Testament. And then Paul comes in and first Corinthians chapter 11, and he makes this statement, uh, you know, uh, remember me and everything, but I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man and the man is the head of the woman and God is the head of Christ.

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And he's talking about the doctrine of headship here. And he anchors this in creation.

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And so this is kind of the foundational basis for, uh, the conversation.

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So the we're different, you know, men and women are different. We're equal in terms of our spiritual value before the cross, but we're actually different.

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And the main deal that we're dealing with here in, in this topic is that man is the image and glory of God.

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And woman is the glory of man. And so, um, man is actually the pinnacle creation and woman is the pinnacle creation of mankind.

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Okay. So God created man as the ultimate representative of him is the image and glory of God.

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Now, um, uh, I'm actually turned to this specific cause the language here is important. I'm going to look at here.

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It's a, okay. It says verse, uh, see here, um, for woman is okay.

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Hold on. Where's the verse. Okay. Area is for seven for a man ought not to have his head covered since he is the image and glory of God, but the woman is the glory of man.

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Okay. So I did have it. Right. So, right. Um, we're not to have our head covered because we are actually representing we're representatives of God.

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God's glory is upon us, especially in spiritual realities and, and our, we're not to cover that glory, that radiating glory that seems to be coming from the head throughout scripture and throughout church history and the idea of halos and all the things that are going on there.

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And Jesus pulling back his face and his face shining and all this stuff. Right. And so there's, uh, we're not to cover our heads because we are the image and glory of God.

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Now woman is the glory of man and man's glory should not glory in the presence of God.

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And so the woman has a head covering to cover her glory because her glory isn't to be glorying in the presence of God while man's glory is to be glorying because he is the image and glory of God.

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And so there's some really offensive stuff there. Uh, but that's, that's what

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I really get at the, at the heart of this conversation and the difference between us, uh, men and, and women.

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Um, and, and listen, men, you don't need to feel bad about having the position of authority that you've been given because God gave it to you and he's holy and all wise and women don't need to feel oppressed or, uh, belittled or less than because that's the position that are all holy and all wise.

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God has given woman. These are good things. These are good things. Now they can be abused on either side and we are to be watching for those, uh, perversions and distortions of doctrine, but this is a good thing and actually when, when working together, it's, it's creates a harmony between man and woman and that's

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God's intention for it. But again, ultimately these are head symbols for the doctrine of headship that represent the, uh, different glories and authorities that have been given to man and woman that are anchored back in creation.

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Yeah. And I would just say on a personal note to, uh, my wife and I have these conversations quite often when we, uh, we were first married and we were working through our reformed theology.

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We both came out of, well, I came out of kind of a fundamentalist church and then a very liberal

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Pentecostal church. So I got both sides of it, talked about it many times. Um, the podcast, but we were working through that reformed theology, then working through complementarianism and nearing towards biblical patriarchy, that more you dig into the word and you see the created order and the beautiful and lovely things between that.

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That's why I said to you, um, when we were messaging back and forth, my wife and I are working through this right now because the natural progression, if we want to, uh, rightly glorify

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God and rightly represent the created order as God has created it, this, this is, this goes, okay, why, why aren't we doing this then?

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And it's such a beautiful thing. I have to say, my wife says, and look up, she went to, you know, she went to post -secondary education, very smart.

30:06

She managed 80 women in her early twenties, uh, you know, in retail and could, could be a working professional woman if she wanted to and be very, very good at it.

30:16

But when, when, when the Lord saved us and we started working through that theology, she said to me a few years ago, there's nothing more freeing than being a helpmate to the head of the household.

30:24

And then also knowing that the head of the household is submitting to Christ, um, as a woman and now she's stay, she stay at home and we homeschool our children and she couldn't be more free or more happy, um, with, with the way

30:38

God created because that's how he created both of us in that created order. Right. So I also want to try to give an example of that because we have so many attacks of this, even within more conservative churches of this is sexism.

30:50

This is misogyny. This is, it always goes towards, oh, you're manipulating a woman or you're being oppressive over her.

30:57

And let me tell you, I know lots of women that adhere to these doctrines and adhere to the, to the Bible and, uh, some of the most beautiful, intelligent, you know what

31:10

I mean? Just, just wise women. And it is a really beautiful thing when, when we, when we adhere to God's created order.

31:17

So with that kind of comment, I would go into as we kind of get through the subjects here in your travel, what, what are you seeing with the rejection of this?

31:27

Um, my church, we're reformed Presbyterian. Uh, we do not practice this.

31:33

Um, and we are pretty darn conservative in every other area in doctrine.

31:39

I mean, we're, you're, we're outside of this. We would, you know, I'd say we're an RC Sproul Presbyterian type thing.

31:45

So, but I talked to reform Baptist. I, you talk to non, you would non -denominational church.

31:50

They don't even, they look at you like, what are you, you're nuts. Right. So it's like, why are we rejecting this even within some of our reformed and conservative circles when it's so clearly stated and is you so clearly make a case for in the book?

32:03

What, what do you think the reason is that for? Is it cultural pressure? Is it just not important? Is it, what do you think is going on there?

32:10

Um, yeah, I think that men are more feminist than they realize. Uh, they've been influenced by the feminist movement.

32:16

Um, they are, uh, they are unwilling to actually look at the scriptures and to evaluate their doctrine against the scriptures.

32:25

There's nobody that's really made an extremely dedicated case in the last a hundred years. That was my hope for this book to, to make a case.

32:32

That's, uh, you know, airtight on, on the doctrine. I mean, I even did a, uh, you know, for the pastors,

32:38

I did a block diagram of the text in the back of the book. Um, you know, I, I've taken,

32:43

I've been to seminary. I understand the original languages I worked in the Greek. I looked at this thing inside and out and you just cannot get around it.

32:50

And for example, let me tell you a couple of things that I've heard some wins. Um, one,

32:56

I mean, one, I'll just start off with this. I mean, yes, the feminist movement is so strong and we need to see that it's absolutely ravaging the church in many, many ways.

33:05

And we don't even realize it. I mean, I just did a podcast recently talking about, should women teach other women theology about what it's just an important question to bring up because there seems to be more and more women that are interested in theologically shepherding other women, which again, is one of these things you do not see in church history.

33:21

It just isn't there. Like go try to find Matthew Henry, inviting a woman to take all the other women through Romans eight.

33:28

You'll never find it. It doesn't exist. But all of a sudden, that's a thing that we all do now.

33:34

And so I asked myself the question, should, should we be doing this? Where's the basis for this? Is this in the curriculum for Titus two women?

33:42

And, um, the other thing that's more alarming is that actually more and more women are actually preferring to learn theology from women and not men.

33:51

And so this, that's an even, so there's a whole bunch of stuff that's going on in the church that has been influenced by feminism that we are trying to kind of get our bearings straight.

34:00

I'll tell you some good news. I've actually had three pastors. Uh, one of them, all three of them are doctorates.

34:07

They have doctorates in theology. Uh, I'm not going to name names because I don't know if they want their, their, their names publicly yet, but they are some decently, uh, you know, decent names in reform

34:18

Christianity world, but they have each wrote me that they were convinced from this book.

34:25

And so someone that's got a PhD from Southern, another one, who's got, uh, uh, a doctorate from Westminster, another one who's enrolled for their doctorate at the master seminary.

34:37

Um, and so this is something that I think if pastors are willing to go, Hey, I'll read this book.

34:45

Um, and this is where it needs to start. Unfortunately this, this isn't a book that's written just for women.

34:50

Yeah. It's got, it's got a cover of a woman covering her head on the front, but this doctrine is just for men as much as it is for women.

34:57

The problem is, is that men don't struggle with taking their hat off. Okay. It's a very weird inconsistency that you will never find some reform pastor praying with his hat on.

35:11

He'll say, take your hats off. He'll he'll look at his boys in the room that have their, you know, Dodger hat on. Hey, take your hat off.

35:17

They're consistent, but they're inconsistent with the other side of this doctrine. It's very, very weird. Yeah.

35:23

If it's still authoritative for the men, why is it not authoritative for the women? It's, we should all be able to wear hats.

35:29

Mark Driscoll wears a hat on stage when he preaches these days. Right. Um, and so you go be like that.

35:36

If you're, if it's not a, you know, what is it? You just adopted some cultural thing. No, you, you take your hat off because of this passage of scripture, you know, men having long hair, you know, it's again, it's in this doctrine of scripture.

35:47

And so there is a, uh, humble men and women will take on this book.

35:55

It takes a level. So I actually open up the book with a chapter called looking strange for God. Women are actually more afraid of what they'll look like wearing a head covering than anything else.

36:08

It's not, it's like, that is the, the, the thing that they're fighting against is that, do I want to be the only woman at church wearing a hood covering?

36:15

And I go, yes, yes. You will start an absolute revival of orthodoxy on this issue.

36:21

I've seen it. I mean, Brian Sovey and Eric Kahn talk about it about their church. I've actually seen even other churches that are, you know, and I haven't gone this far, but, uh, but I'm not saying that I wouldn't at some point,

36:34

I just trying to look at our cultural moment, but some churches will actually have head coverings in the back and will require women to wear them at church.

36:43

And so that's how it used to be always. Um, so it's not a crazy idea.

36:49

It's crazy for our generation, but try to walk into a present Presbyterian church in the 1700s with your hair curled and uncovered, you would be right in that community.

37:00

And, and so, um, uh, yes, there's so much that goes on here in this conversation.

37:07

I do want, and I know you want to talk about is the hair as the covering, because that is the hair is the covering or the switching of the covering to another symbol.

37:13

Those are important discussions I think to have. Yeah. You know, it was funny. I saw, uh, just two weeks ago, randomly, uh, online, a, an old baseball clip from the forties black and white, you know, and the speed was still real fast and the looks like everything's in fast motion.

37:31

It's that kind of, and it panned the audience. And of course, all the men were in suits and hats in probably 95 % of the women had on a head covering in public of some, of some kind, whether it be a hat or a

37:43

Shaw or S and I just went, wow, that's like 1948. That's like a little younger than my grandfather.

37:50

That's like how far we've come. So even the general, so they're not, they're not at a church at a ball game at a major league baseball game.

37:59

And our society said, Hey, uh, we're going to take some of these vestiges of Christianity and let's still keep implementing them in the secular culture because they seem to be good things, you know?

38:09

And that's the discussion, not to change topic, but that's the discussion I think we're having right now with Christian nationalism and theonomy and all that.

38:15

It's like we've coasted on these godly and good things in this country for so long. When we removed the rug, we went,

38:21

Oh, what's happening. Right. But it was just insane to me. And then that was like two days after I messaged you and I went, wow, that's the providence of the

38:30

God. I just happened to see that notice that and go, wow. So that's not that long ago. So we're talking about something like you said, in church history for thousands of years, even in secular culture in the last 65 years.

38:44

Well, so yeah, you actually see, you actually see even in the 1800s the, the, the late 1800s, you start to see the feminist movement.

38:52

There's actually like bonnet burnings. It's like a 1960s version of the bra burnings.

38:58

It's just like a little bit more tame back then you actually see also women actually doing feministic, you know, protests where they all go up to the, to the altar to take communion and they all take their hats off together to, you know, take off the patriarchy or whatever they, you know,

39:18

I actually cite those things in the book. This is directly connected to the feminist movement.

39:23

And we have to realize that for, for 2000 years, the church influenced the culture on this issue.

39:32

Women were distinctly symbolizing their femininity, visually publicly everywhere.

39:42

And all of a sudden the church stops and the culture will always going to follow the church. So the church stops.

39:50

And now we have a gender mess. You cannot, you cannot escape the reality of it, that gender distinctions and symbolization of men and women through this practice, you cannot deny that it has some implications to the gender mess of today.

40:10

It's obviously one of many factors, but it's absolutely connected. What's really crazy.

40:17

And I don't want to get off track here as we kind of put bookends on this, but there was a, it's been going around on the internet.

40:22

It was a very popular survey. I think Pew did the survey or Gallup maybe, but it was of 10 or 15 ,000 men between the ages of 18 and 45 and something like 63 % of them are single or not looking for a mate.

40:38

63 % of men don't want to essentially date or have intimate relationship.

40:44

And this was, you know, cross, cross culture, cross board. And one of the main reasons why they gave, when they did a followup with give us a reason why it was, we're just not really attracted to the modern woman.

40:58

Yep. And when you, and they just said, just in, in general, just the way they carry themselves, the way they talk, the way they dress.

41:05

Right. Now you would think if, if you were a, you know, outs, outside, nonbeliever, the way some of these women dress in public, you would go,

41:14

Oh, wow, that seems very attractive. I'm a red blooded male, but they're saying even the way they carry themselves, the way they distinguish themselves from men, it's not attractive to us.

41:23

And when you just said, you know, going back to what bonnet burnings and things like that, and even in the 18 hundreds into the 1950s, you had a very distinct difference between male and female, even in the public sphere.

41:34

And I would argue, uh, if you watch any good John Wayne movie, that's what makes the woman attractive.

41:40

And I'm not just saying in the sexual, uh, uh, point, I'm saying in the attractiveness as in a mate, as in you're different from me, as in you have characteristics that are, that compliment me as man to woman.

41:51

And now we've totally lost that. And you bring it up very well in the book too, that the sixties, pretty much sexual revolution, but it just went haywire.

41:59

That's where we get CRT and everything from the seventies and gender stuff. And the church just abandoned it.

42:04

And it just, it just bothering me so much because you go, it was something that was so recent. It seemed to be so solid in church history.

42:11

Um, that's why not only is, you know, it's a little upsetting, but it's I'm so glad that you wrote this book because that's why

42:18

I started this with why now. And I think we're tracking in the same place to where we've, we've gotten so far off course in 50, 60 years.

42:26

And we're not talking about this. Um, so I really do appreciate where you're coming from in that.

42:32

Oh, go ahead. Yeah. I mean, think about this, like a woman with a covering on looks beautiful.

42:38

I don't know if you, I mean, you just, I mean the, the cover of this book, this woman just looks eloquent, um, and delicate and delicate and beautiful.

42:46

And you know, it's because women look good with long hair. And that's what I want to talk about in terms of, uh, you know, the, the verse that says, you know, a woman's been given her hair for a covering.

42:56

Well, it's talking about nature, uh, in the sense that God has designed men to look good with short hair and women to look good with long hair.

43:08

Um, it's actually innate, every tribe, nation, and tongue. That's a general principle, the normative reality. Um, there's actually studies that I show in the book, uh, that men, the first thing a man notices about a woman is her 74 % of men said that the first thing they notice about a woman is her hair.

43:25

It's actually more important than breasts, butts, body size, all that stuff.

43:31

I mean, seriously, people are like, men are just attracted to a woman's hair. Every, every fashion magazine on earth understands this because, you know, it's just, it's a magazine and it's her hairs like flying all over the place, you know?

43:45

And so a bald woman is appalling. Now, a, a bald man is not.

43:53

And so now I know that there's women that have certain circumstances that they have to lose their hair. And a lot of them wear wigs, their wear head covering.

44:02

And that's not to be shameful because of those circumstances, but women that actually cut them themselves are cut their hair short.

44:09

It's not attractive. Um, and it's showing, what

44:14

I want to say here is that the idea of a shawl being on a woman's head, it looks beautiful because hair long things in a woman's face look, it frames her face.

44:26

It's a beautiful thing. And, um, and this is something that we see throughout even the world. It's not something that's just in the

44:32

Christian church, but what I want you to see is, is, uh, in early church history, people always say,

44:37

Oh, this is a cultural thing. I'm like, no, it's not. In fact, in, in the, when the time this was written, it was the men that covered their heads while praying.

44:47

And it was a Greek and Roman practice to do so. And Paul is saying, no, this isn't a cultural practice.

44:53

This is a counter -cultural practice. Men, even in the Jewish culture covered their heads. Paul's creating a brand new practice men uncover their heads and women cover.

45:02

And I put lots of citations in study and research. You could find the images that are carved in marble that are still in Rome right now of the statues of these things there.

45:10

So they're there. Um, as it pertains to this idea of for the hair is given to her for a covering.

45:19

A lot of people are like, Oh, boom. Like that's it. The hair is the covering. It's right there. You know, case closed.

45:25

We don't need head coverings. You're an idiot, Dale. Let's move on. Um, and so again, of all the arguments,

45:30

I actually think this is the weakest of the argument because, uh, Paul says in verse six, if you read in chapter 11, verse six, he says, for if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off.

45:46

But if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her be covered. So in other words, if the hair is viewed as a head covering, why would

45:55

Paul say for if a woman does not cover her head, let her hair also be cut off is

46:02

I just slow down with me just for a second. I want you to read this. Uh, if you look at this text carefully, you would have to read the text like this for, if a woman does not cover her head with hair, let her hair also be cut off.

46:17

The interpretation creates like a logical contradiction and reveals that Paul's talking about an external covering, not the woman's hair.

46:27

In addition, you know, the fact that Paul commands covering only during certain circumstances and functions praying and prophesying, it's evidence that he's instructing the use of a removable covering because if the hair was a covering that he had in view, uh, then they would always be covered in all functions because women don't take off their hair.

46:49

And, and so, you know, when you look at these, these distinctions, they're important.

46:55

So, uh, if the hair is the covering that Paul's covering calling for, why would Paul even have to write them to tell them to cover their head?

47:03

Because again, women aren't in the habit of taking off their hair. Um, and so what, what would that even mean?

47:10

And so, uh, the other thing is you just go like, why even write like a 16 verse text to tell women to cover their heads with hair when they don't ever take their hair off?

47:23

No, it's got to be an external covering. The Greek shows that it's an external covering. I use example after example over that.

47:29

So, so that, that is like clearly just an easy issue to deal with. It's in the book more clearly.

47:36

The second thing that people talk about, and this is like MacArthur or Doug Wilson, even, that they'll talk about like a wedding ring or modesty can, can replace the symbol.

47:49

And again, I just think this is just a bad argument because when in scripture are you allowed to separate the principle from the symbol?

47:58

So let's just go, Hey, you know what? I know baptism's about water, but let's use another element. Let's use wind, you know, when are you going to separate the symbol from the principle?

48:08

Hey, you know, I know it's wine and bread, but we could use cinnamon toast crunch.

48:14

I mean, we're not going to separate the symbol from the principle anywhere else. And so to separate the symbol from the principle here is absurd because it's an inconsistent hermeneutic.

48:25

And so, um, there's things like that. Again, when you look at the text from every possible angle,

48:31

I think that people are going to arrive at, you go, all right. And I would rather be obedient to this passage of scripture and find out that I was wrong than disobedient to this passage of scripture and find out that I was,

48:46

I was a right. And so, uh, and so R .C. Sproul talked about this is the, the greater risk is on the person who chooses to say that it's not for today.

48:59

Yeah. Not for today. The greater risk lays on them. So good. All right. Uh, Dale, we appreciate you being here, uh, and coming on the podcast, getting a cover for glory.

49:08

You guys, I'm three quarters of the way through it. I'm telling you right now. Um, I love books that don't waste my time. They're succinct.

49:14

They're to the point. I do a lot of reading. I don't need a lot of personal antidotes.

49:19

I want history. I want Bible. I want where you're coming from, where your arguments are in guys. Uh, you know, we do book reviews on this podcast sometimes too.

49:26

I would, I would definitely recommend this book. Um, this is something for today. This is, and I mean, even the, like I said, the historical, even you talking about the, uh, the

49:36

Roman era and how the covering was counterculture. I found that extremely interesting because I didn't know that.

49:42

I've heard the cultural argument. I just believed him. I didn't even look into it and went, well, what was the culture back then? Well, definitely wasn't women covering their heads in the

49:49

Roman Greco times. It was the opposite. So, so you bring up those type of, uh, I don't want to say arguments, but points from history and it really gets you thinking.

49:58

So, um, Dale, someone's out there, uh, listening right now and they go, you want to, what I'm married or I'm engaged or I'm a leader in my church or I'm, I'm, I'm thinking about this issue, rolling it around.

50:09

What's something as the final word you would give to them to say, explore this a little bit more.

50:14

What would you, what would you say to that listener? I think it's an important, I think it's an important doctrine to study and study well because it's a visual doctrine in the church and it helps restore order and reorient gender back to its biblical structure.

50:34

I think it has a huge impact on homes and families and churches and women are allowed to be women and men allowed to be men.

50:42

And it actually doesn't just put women in a place of submission and uh, and structure.

50:51

It also puts men in their place of leadership, which so many men in their passive sinful failures need that.

51:00

And so, um, at the end of the book, I also tackled a handful of important questions that I think are very good.

51:08

It can be very common. I asked, I asked the question, you know, are, are, are head coverings just for wives or all females?

51:14

If you read the ESV, you're going to read the only translation that translates that word gune in the

51:19

Greek as wives. Um, there is no indication about marriage at all.

51:25

And so you're going to have to deal with this as being all men and all women. Nobody thought that this was an issue for just wives pre, you know, 1960.

51:34

I asked the question or answer the question, how much of my head should be covered? Uh, because that's another question a lot of women ask pretty quickly.

51:41

How often should I wear the head covering? What should I do if my husband disagrees with my conviction to cover my head?

51:47

Should my, should I leave my church if they don't practice head coverings? How can I humbly share this doctrine with others?

51:54

Um, you know, why is there, why wasn't it a practice under the old Testament? Um, why wasn't it a practice with Eve in the garden of Eden?

52:03

Um, you know, why doesn't Peter mentioned head coverings? Um, if you're a pastor,

52:09

I asked a question is, uh, this book persuaded me, how should I implement this doctrine at our church? Um, so I hit a whole bunch of these questions for, for people that I want to meet you where you're at.

52:21

I know after 10 years walk into this doctrine, all the things that could be thrown at you. And, uh, my hope is that 10 years from today, uh, this book has been selling like faster than I expected.

52:35

I mean, we're probably sure pushing over to 2000 copies out already. And it's only been maybe, maybe a month and a half, two months now.

52:41

Um, yeah, my hope is Lord willing that 10 years from today, we walk into a reformed church and the vast majority of women, uh, are covering their heads and men are uncovering during acts of prayer and prophesying.

52:53

And so, uh, so excited for what the Lord is going to do through it. And, and, uh, and all the money for these books, guys goes directly to our ministry.

53:01

None of the money goes to me. Uh, I've donated all of the money from all of my books to our ministry. And so, uh, you guys can buy copies.

53:09

I encourage you guys to buy 10 copies, you know, keeps them with you, give them to the ladies at your church, go through, you know, a woman's group with, with these things, whatever you want to do.

53:18

Uh, but this goes back to supporting our ministry to support the gospel, not to my pockets. And we'll link all that up on the episode guys, but just tell everyone where they can find you on social media and, uh, where they can find your ministry.

53:31

Yeah. relearn .org is our ministry. Uh, you can find me on Instagram, Twitter, uh,

53:37

YouTube. Those are the main, uh, territories. I also have a podcast called real Christianity, uh, tackling issues every single week and love to have you on the joint.

53:45

Cool. Well, Dale, thanks so much for being here. We appreciate you taking time talking about this very important issue.

53:51

Awesome. Thanks for having me, brother. Yeah, guys. Thanks for listening to another episode of dead man, walking podcast. We appreciate you taking time out of your day.

53:57

We know there's a lot of stuff you could be listening to out there, but we're always trying to bring you good content, uh, godly content, glorifying

54:03

God and what we do. We appreciate you. We love you. And as always remember the chief end of man to glorify God and enjoy him forever.

54:09

God bless. Be sure to follow us on Facebook and Instagram at dead men, walking podcast for full video podcast episodes and clips, or email us at dead men, walking podcast at gmail .com.