Refuting Brandan Robertson's Progressive Christianity

When the Scribes and Pharisees asked our Lord about the greatest commandment, He replied, You shall love the

Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.

So, why do we hear some of today's most prominent pastors saying things like this? It had everything to do with how we talk about the

Bible, and specifically, or along with that, what we point to as the foundation of faith, which for most

Christians, unfortunately, is the Bible. We need to do better.

We need to love God with all our hearts, and stand unashamedly on the rock of His Word. We need to love the

Lord with all of our souls, and respond to the worldview issues of our day with the wisdom and discernment that comes only from Him.

We need to love the Lord with our minds, and understand the calling of God's people in every area of life in God's world.

We need to love the Lord our God with all our strength, and face the work of building a life -giving,

God -honouring culture. Join us for 10 days at the Runner Academy for Cultural Leadership, as we consider how the

Gospel influences all of life and culture, and the role that we have to play in applying foundational

Christian thinking to every area of life. So, this particular text is amazing in terms of prophecy.

Hundreds of years before Jesus comes, it predicts that what's going to happen is they're going to finish the transgression.

There's going to be an end to sin, atonement for iniquity, everlasting righteousness, sealing up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the

Most Holy One. That's Daniel chapter 9, and it says, and it's an amazing prophecy, it literally nails the timing of the

Messiah, which is why they were so expecting at that time, because they knew that this is the time of the Messiah. They could count, and the

Messiah was going to come, be cut off, and then the second temple was going to be destroyed. So, here's the point. Why read

Daniel 9 at the start of the show? This is the point. Brandon Robertson, progressive gay pastor, and I mean that literally, he's gay, he said that the

Old Testament doesn't prophesy Jesus Christ. Isaiah 53 is not about Jesus. We're going to talk about that today, his comments that were during our discussion with him, and comments he's had elsewhere.

But prophecies like this are some of the most amazing things to examine as a

Christian, because it shows the divine inspiration of Scripture, that hundreds of years before the

Messiah comes, it nails everything about him, where he's coming from, Bethlehem. It nails, of course, the details of who he is, his person, that he's

God himself, Isaiah 9, 6 through 7. It is El Gibor, the mighty God, that's a title of Yahweh, the true

God, by the way. This son who is coming, this child is going to be Yahweh himself. It nails the timing of his coming, when he's coming,

Daniel chapter 9. It nails his death for sin, that he would be crushed for our iniquities.

A chastisement for our well -being would be upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. He was numbered with the transgressors, but he justifies the many as he bears their iniquities.

He's pierced through for our transgressions. They pierced his hands and his feet. They're like dogs wagging their head at him.

They cast lots for his clothing. All of those details are there in the Old Testament, long before Jesus comes, and it gets even deeper than in terms of the symbolism, but this particular prophecy, as complex as it is, it nails what

Jesus accomplishes. He brings an everlasting righteousness. He makes atonement for iniquity. He makes an end of sin. They finish the transgression, which is what

Jesus says they were doing. Fill up, then, the measure, right? Like they were God's covenant people.

There's always a remnant, but they are sinning and violating God's law, and they are sinning against Yahweh himself. They keep doing that in perpetuity throughout their relationship to him, and the promise was that this is going to hit a climax in and God's going to deal with it.

There's going to be redemption, salvation, atonement, purification, and judgment at the coming of the

Messiah. We're going to talk about some of that stuff today. Even in what you're saying thematically, there's bullet points, and sub -points, and sub -points.

Boom. I know. If you build an outline, you could just make a beautiful faith -increasing Bible study. That's right. That's what this show is gonna be about, guys.

We're gonna try to increase your faith and your confidence in the Word of God. It's an amazing, amazing thing, and it's... We're doing a debate.

Not this weekend. Next Saturday, April 1st, Salt Lake City. We're gonna be there together again.

We've got our team coming out to do a debate at Utah, Salt Lake... University of Utah. Yeah.

With two atheist philosophers and ethicists. And the title of the debate is

Does Morality Depend Upon God? And it's... I really believe this. It's an area where it's like, okay, we'll do that narrow focus.

I'm surprised that you want to, as an atheist, someone who believes that you are the descendant of fish, and you believe you can base morality off of that kind of worldview.

But okay. I mean, it seems like a lot to bite off. But if you're courageous enough to make the claim, let's get into it.

And then with Brandon Robertson, on the debate, radio discussion debate we had with him, he actually went after the prophecies of Jesus, that the

Old Testament doesn't prophesy Jesus. And I thought to myself, well, if you want to bite that off, go for it. I mean...

Just cuz. Okay, that's a brave move, my friend. But we're gonna do some of that today.

I'm Jeff the Commoner Ninja. That's Luke the Bear. Hey, what up? Sorry. Oh, sorry. No, go ahead. The chat's already been very feisty.

Feisty? We were having some audio issues at the beginning, but it's been resolved. But I was...

I thought some people in the chat channel were going to choke Gabe through YouTube. Yeah. But we're good. And then there's also a...

Electronic choking? There's a heretic in there as well that's causing issues. So we might have to bounce him.

We'll deal with that. By the way, heretics and those who would like to troll and thread, we just want you to know, with love and grace, that it's so easy, it is so easy just to hide you from the channel permanently.

So if you decide you want to troll or you want to actually, you know, spew heresy, those sorts of things, then all we do is just click a button and you are permanently hidden from...

for all eternity. For life. For eternity on YouTube. You won't be able to comment. You'll think you're commenting, but you'll actually not be commenting.

No one's seeing what you're saying. So it's easy. It's best just to... it's just best to behave. It's just best to behave.

That way you don't have to shout into the void. That's right. That's right. So that is Zachary Conover. He is the director of communications for End Abortion Now.

If your church gets linked up with End Abortion Now, you'll be talking to this guy right here. He'll be getting you out kits and all the training and resources you need for your church to go out and save lives at the mill.

And so welcome back. Yeah, great to be here. I'm excited for this one. Everybody, I highly encourage you, after the show today, go through the thread here and on YouTube, on the platform here, somewhere in the last week or so, there is a video of our team in Ohio and Zach got a chance to speak there in Ohio for about an hour or so and laid down some solid foundations, some necessary things you need to hear.

It was one of the best messages I've ever heard ever on this issue of the pre -born.

It is solid, solid, solid. So if you want sort of a one -stop shop, that's gonna be my one -stop shop, kind of go -to sermon that I share with people, like listen to Zach on this.

Wow. Thanks, bro. Yeah, it was really excellent. So you put a lot into an hour and 15, 30 minutes?

Hour and change. Where'd you learn to do all that? Three to five, you know. Well, there wasn't... Luke six -four, that's my answer.

Yeah, and you weren't there that time, so he had all the time in the world. Like, he wasn't competing, you know.

For any time there, so he's just like, you know what? I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna speak like I'm the only one speaking.

Because I wasn't, because I wasn't in the way. It was nice. I mean, those guys are super solid.

They actually just messaged in that thread this morning. They got about five, ten minutes alone with the governor.

Really? They passed him one of our tracks, our equal protection tracks, and had a little conversation about that. So, good stuff going.

Big things, big things happening in Ohio. Praise God. Don't forget everyone, go to apologiastudios .com

A -P -O -L -O -G -I -A studios .com, apologiastudios .com is where you guys can go. Sign up for all access.

When you do, you make everything we're doing possible, including the debate next week. The debate. You're gonna get to see that. The world's gonna get to see that.

Our last debate we did in Utah with James and I, something like 1 .5 or 2 million total views globally.

That might be because of the antifreeze. It might be because of the antifreeze. Maybe this one's not gonna get as much traction. I don't know. The atheists in Utah, too?

It seems like there's a pattern developing there. It definitely happens. The one guy we're debating is an ex -Mormon.

The atheist chaplain guy, the humanist chaplain, he's an ex -Mormon. Yeah, it does. So, you guys who are all accessed with us in this ministry, your partners with us, you make everything we do possible.

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And so it's totally free, shouldn't be, because it is valuable. But that's a gift from the

Bonson family. So here we go. We're back and I know we've spent a good deal of last month talking about Brandon Robertson.

And we decided to do it again today. And the reason why is because there's just... Treasury. It's just an amazing opportunity for us to be able to engage with so -called progressive

Christianity and the gay theologian, Brandon Robertson. And so we've dealt with some of his

TikTok stuff before. We've engaged with that, refuted that stuff. We had him on the show because he asked to have a conversation with us.

We had that debate, it's been seen by a lot of people, and the debate was only an hour long. So we knew we had a lot to get to, limited time, and so we weren't able to do everything we wanted to do.

So he made some comments on the show that I thought, we thought, it would be a great benefit to dig into together because it's not just about refuting a heretic, and refuting an apostate, and refuting a wicked man like Brandon Robertson.

It's not just about that. It's about equipping and training you to know your Bible. And so when you hear someone make the, let's just call it what it is, insane claims that Brandon makes, showing that he's completely biblically illiterate, unfortunately, it's important for you to be able to engage with that.

And so he made some comments. We're gonna engage with them. By the way, Super Chats, everybody, I was told by Gabe, who's now happily married.

Praise God for Gabe's marriage. Gabe Green and then Mrs. Green. I was told by Gabe to mention the

Super Chats. If you want to send in Super Chats and ask questions, we'll try to get to those as well throughout the stream today.

Jacob, thank you for that. Thanks for that blessing, speaking the truth. And Levi Jarvis, much love in Christ.

Keep spreading the truth. Glad to see Zach on today. Me too. I love what Zach's on. Appreciate that.

I love it. Happy to be here. Let's do it. Unless you have somewhere you want to go first. No, I was just gonna say in the tag on what you were saying there.

Oh, we got 20 euro. Euros? Can you spend those? Not here.

Can we buy like a light for that? Some lights? I think maybe we can. Euros work in America. Thank you.

Yes, thank you. Thank you, Timeo. Disciples all over the world.

Sorry, what was I saying? You said you were gonna say. I was gonna say that part of the reason we want to continue this conversation is because we know that it's been blessing a lot of people.

Right. I've been getting a lot of really great feedback from people saying thank you. This has been really helpful. You know,

I was just saying earlier, someone I know was like, oh, he's saying the quiet part out loud. And I was like, yes, praise

God. That's what we want. We want them to be honest and not, you know, it's darkness being brought to light.

We don't want this awful teaching to be hidden, you know, underground somewhere. We want it to come forth and be in the public so it can be addressed.

That's right. That's part of the reason why this is exposed. You're gonna be hearing more and more of this bootleg argumentation because of the culture that we're in today.

And so he's a popular talking head, pop culture sort of gay icon for the gay community.

And so you're gonna be hearing his very poor arguments a lot. You need to know how to deal with them and deal with a person that's as biblically illiterate as Brandon and as deceptive as Brandon, but also just be able to really engage with what he claims.

And I want to say just as we start this, one of the things that you'll note, and this is important for everyone who's defending the faith, there's a difference between making a claim and being able to justify it.

Making a claim and being able to provide proper warrant for it, right? Anybody can say something.

Anybody can just announce something, right? Make a claim. It's another thing to actually be able to justify that claim.

And one of the things that you're gonna see a lot from atheists today, agnostics today, from people like Brandon Robertson, is a lot of announcing but no justification, no real backing it up.

A lot of making claims, but not actually providing the warrant for that claim. And even something as elementary as,

I know this, just a simple knowledge claim. You know, having justified true belief in that and being able to ground it in anything other than your own personal preference or societal convention.

And you all heard what he just said, right? Justified, true, belief. That's knowledge, right?

Knowledge, justified, true, belief. Not just claiming something, right? I know it.

How do you know it? Because I feel good. Because I feel it, right? That doesn't justify it. It doesn't mean it's true at all.

It doesn't make it true. And if you're gonna make a knowledge claim, is it justified, true, belief? And so again, the difference between announcing something and justifying it.

And you're gonna get that a lot from Brandon and others in our culture today. A lot of announcing, right? Well, is it right to have all the male parts and still claim you have a uterus?

Well, I believe so. That's right. That's moral. Okay, it's fine you announce it, but justify it, right?

Like provide justification for that claim. And so you're gonna get that a lot today. It's one thing this culture, this apostate generation is very inebriated by, and that is, you know, we hate the idea of certainty.

Right. Having a grounding for anything, to be able to say anything, for sure. Like, I know this for certain.

I think our culture just despises that in general. Yeah, that's a good point to put your finger on, because you're gonna hear Brandon doing that a lot.

He doesn't like for quote -unquote fundamentalists to claim certainty. Yeah. Right. He even makes a point in one of his videos, like,

I know that it sounds very appealing. It's very attractive to say like, this is the objective standard. This is how

I know, you know, this is how I have certainty kind of thing. He's like, I know that's very attractive. It's like, yeah. Yeah. You're darn skippy, it's right.

And yeah, he's positive that we're incorrect. Yeah, you're darn skippy, it feels good. It feels good to be epistemologically sound.

Yeah, I agree. It feels good, right, to actually have justification for something.

He's like, I know it just seems like, it seems like it'd be great to have this. It's like, yeah, it's great. It's great to have certainty.

Yeah. The dent that progressive Christianity is leaving, it's almost like people humble themselves or pride themselves on the fact,

I should say, that we can't really know. Like, they know that.

And they're, yeah, exactly, they're positive. I'm so, you know, I'm just humbling myself. I don't know, you know, we can't really know anything, you know.

Try that in a court of law. Try that in a rape hearing or a rape trial.

You know, I just, all this epistemic, like, humility, we just can't know. Who really knows?

Was it wrong? I don't know. Should we apply proper standards of evidence? I don't know. Should we cross -examine witnesses to see if it's true?

We just don't know. Yeah. We just don't know. So anyway, so okay. Before I get started, real quick, the

Super Chat is blowing up today. So thank you, everyone. We will do our best to get to everyone at the end of the show, because there's been some really good questions.

Oh, Gabe's gonna love that. He's gonna be like, see? See? It is like band central today. Who's in control of the band hammer today?

Gabe, and he needs to speed up, actually, because it's just... Hide user on channel. Hide user on channel.

Hide user on channel. It's happening. If you just got here, I'll say it again. Don't troll. Don't troll.

Behave yourself. Because the moment you troll and get nasty or you're abusive to people, we just, we click a, it's a button.

It's effortless. It's so effortless. It's hide user on channel. And then you're permanently unable to speak on the channel.

So like, if you want to be able to engage, we respect that. I mean, we're engaging with an apostate right now.

We don't have any problem with engagement. But if you're abusive, if you troll, if you're a heretic, we're just gonna hide you from the channel.

So like, let me give you some good advice. Just don't, because it's too easy for us to... It's too easy for us to hide you for life.

So here we go. This is a portion of the discussion with Pastor James, myself, and Brandon.

And this is where it gets to an interesting part of the discussion. So when you specifically say,

I'm going to follow Jesus, and yet Jesus holds men accountable for what is found in the written scriptures that were written 1400 years before they came along.

Some of them. Okay, so where do you get the standard then? Did Jesus give you a standard somewhere as to how to figure out what from the scriptures you're going to believe and not believe?

The life and teachings of Jesus, first and foremost, are my foundation for my faith, spirituality, ethics.

That's where I would point to first and foremost as somebody who identifies as a follower of Jesus. Some of them.

Nope. Some of them. Nope. And everyone sees through that, Brandon. You do know that. One of the things I've said is

I've said that Brandon is clearly... We just have to be honest, speak straight, not crooked. He's clearly a tool of the devil, of the enemy, spiritually deceived, dark, deceiving others, all the rest.

And what I've said in the past is that's clear. And the problem is with Brandon is Brandon, you're not even that good at it.

There's much better apostates and people who are attempting clarity of thought and cogent thinking than you.

You're not very good at what you do. Anybody that sees this knows he doesn't mean what he just said.

And you're gonna see in a moment why he doesn't really mean it. It's just a claim. It's just announcing something he doesn't really believe.

Because if you did actually follow Jesus as the central part of your ethic and who you follow, then you'd actually believe him.

In Matthew 5, 17 through 19, where he says, do not even begin to think that I've come to destroy the law of the prophets.

I did not come to destroy them, but to fulfill them. And he warns people that if any of you teaches anyone to break even the least of these commandments, you'll be called least in the kingdom of heaven.

But whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

So that's Jesus referring to the law of God. And when he's asked what the greatest commandment in the law of God is, he says, of course, it's

Shema. And he tells them what about the law. He says that love

God, love neighbor is what all the law and the prophets are built upon. So all that mosaic legislation, all that code, all that law stuff, all that justice stuff, all that caring for victims stuff, all of that,

Jesus actually says the whole law and the prophets were built upon love God, love neighbor. So if you wanna know what it looks like in the world to love

God, love neighbor, look at the law of Moses. That's what Jesus said. And Jesus defined the human relationship, intimate relationship between man and woman who leave mother, father.

See the sets? See, it's man, woman leaving mother, father. So it's one new world, man, woman, and leaving another world, mother, father.

So that's male gender, female gender, and that's coming together, becoming one flesh. If you really believe

Jesus and you followed him as your source of ethics and foundation and grounding of ethics, then you would believe him when he says those things.

But Brandon, you don't. You don't. You don't even think that Jesus said a bunch of stuff that's actually in the Bible. You think the Bible is corrupted.

You think it's filled with immorality, grave immorality, all that stuff. And so, Brandon, look, we see through the charade.

And like I've said, look, I don't want you to perish, Brandon. I want you to know Christ. I want you to repent.

I want you to be forgiven. But honestly, the right thing to do in your state of apostasy is just go the whole way,

Brandon. Like you got one foot on the Christian worldview, wherever it suits you, and the other foot in just basic atheism and secularism and all the rest.

And you're between two positions right now. Just go ahead and remove the foot off the

Jesus stuff, because honestly, it's not becoming, and it doesn't look good on you. Strikes me as just a pretense, really.

Right. Well, it's a way to get into churches. It's a way to deceive others. Yeah, it's just a feel -good theology, right?

You can do all the perverted stuff you want and still say you love Jesus. And that's why he's so popular, because people are like, this is great.

I can live how I want and still claim the name of Christ. Like, sign me up. Which, by the way, he was doing before he adopted this position.

That was one of your guys' questions for him. Like, hey, you were living this licentious lifestyle prior to this, right?

Yeah, you admit that you struggled with homosexual lust and desires long before you stepped fully into apostasy.

So there was more going on than just like, I was just examining the text and scholarship, and I found this. No, this is a spiritual issue for everybody, not just for Brandon and people who struggle with these desires.

It's for everybody. We're all fallen, lost. We missed the mark. We're all not righteous, and we all suppress truth and unrighteousness, apart from the grace of God.

And that's clearly what was coinciding with your apostasy. Yeah, right. Yeah. Now, Jesus, if you actually examine honestly and critically the way that Jesus uses

Scripture throughout the four Gospels, again, he would have been critiqued by fundamentalists.

I don't understand how you all wouldn't critique Jesus. For instance, when he quotes, he stands up in the synagogue, unravels the scroll of Isaiah, and pronounces, the

Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is upon me. He's anointing me to preach good news to the poor. Quotes the whole Scripture, and then he stops right before it says, and the great and dreadful day of the

Lord, talking about the judgment of God. Multiple times throughout this. Oh, this is one of my favorite things to talk about.

This is one of my favorite things to talk about. And this is why hashtag eschatology matters.

Hashtag eschatology matters. Okay, first of all, I want everyone to follow me through here real fast. Okay. We're talking

Isaiah 61, right? Yeah, yeah. So he's quoting Luke, all right? Not me. Not this guy.

Luke 1, I think. Biblical name though, okay. Luke chapter 4. Chapter 4, verse 18, all right?

Jesus goes to the synagogue. I'll start in 17. Here's what it says, Luke 4, 17. And the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him.

He enrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written. And then he quotes, the spirit of the Lord is upon me because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor.

He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the year of the

Lord's favor. And in verse 20, it says, and he rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant and sat down.

And the eyes of all in synagogue were fixed on him. And he began to say to them, today this scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.

Brandon thinks that that was an inappropriate use of the text. He thinks that the Lord of glory, God in the flesh made a mistake there, that Jesus was somehow abusing the text, not using it accurately.

Well, okay. But he doesn't actually quote the verse correctly there.

He's mixing verses. The verse that he's referring to, you'd find them in Joel 2, in Malachi chapters 3 and 5.

You'll see some of that there. And I want to just read it. Okay. So that's Jesus, Luke chapter 4, in the synagogue saying, this is fulfilled in your ears.

Brandon doesn't like the fact that Jesus stopped short of the promise of judgment. Yeah. Okay.

Now I'm going to read from where Jesus was quoting from. This is from Isaiah chapter 61. Now, Brandon acknowledges that.

That's what Jesus is doing here. He's quoting. He's saying it's fulfilled in me. Brandon doesn't like that Jesus did that, but let's see what he was quoting from.

So Isaiah 61, the text says about 700 years before Jesus, this is written.

The spirit of the Lord God is upon me because the Lord has anointed me to bring good news to the poor. Hey, Jesus said that.

He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives and the opening of the prison to those who are bound, to proclaim the year of the

Lord's favor. Ah, but wait. And it says, and the day of vengeance of our

God to come for all who mourn. So he doesn't like, he's like, well, wait, why did, why did

Jesus, why did he leave off this, this thing of judgment? Like he's, he's not handling a text right.

Like he's, he's leaving off this, all this liberty and there's gospel and there's spirit of the Lord upon me. But why would

Jesus just, just, he leaves off just sort of willy nilly the day of vengeance of our God. Well, Brandon, if you knew your

Bible, if you weren't so biblically illiterate, if you didn't just pick and choose what you want to believe and what you want to toss out, then you would know that the entire

Bible is a consistent story of redemption and actually judgment upon the covenant breakers at the coming of the

Messiah. So one of the things that you find here in Isaiah 61 is that, wow, look at this. We have people released from prison, liberty to captives, good news to the poor, and what is this?

And the day of vengeance of our God. Does Luke mention days of vengeance anywhere else?

You knew where I was going. Um, so same book, same book. Now we're not going to other books.

Luke's narrative, Luke four, Jesus quotes Isaiah. Yeah, he does leave off day of vengeance.

But I wonder, did Jesus know that verse and what was in that?

Well, if you just keep reading Luke and you get to Luke chapter, um, 21,

Luke chapter 21, Mark 24, sorry, Mark, uh, 13, Matthew 24 are the, all of it.

Discourse sections of the three synoptic gospels. And in Luke chapter 21,

Luke actually gives some more details than even Matthew gives new Bible. You just wanted to hear the pages flip new

Bible. Every time he, he flips a page at wafts, this really great smell. So he's just taking his time.

New Bible. I'm, I'm being very careful with, with how I open it. Um, okay.

So Luke 21, Mark 13, Matthew 24, all of it discourse. This is where Jesus promises the great tribulation.

He promises the judgment upon Jerusalem. He promises the destruction of the Jewish temple. Wait a second.

Didn't we just start this episode with a verse, a section from Daniel where Daniel promises that they're going to have an, uh, an, um, uh, the full culmination of their sins brought.

And it says that the Messiah was going to be cut off and have nothing. And that then the second temple was going to be destroyed.

So wait a second. Atonement for iniquity, everlasting righteousness, end of sin, uh, anoint, anointing of the most holy

Jesus. And then it says that this Messiah is going to be cut off. And then the second Jewish temple is going to be destroyed.

Did, I wonder, does that match any events in history where you have atonement, everlasting righteousness, end of sin,

Messiah being cut off and dying a violent death. And then the second Jewish temple being destroyed. I wonder if anything like that happened in history.

Did that, did that occur anywhere in history? Did Jesus, better, did he prophesy that and use the very words of Isaiah 61 that Brandon says he was misusing?

Well, let's take a look. Luke chapter 21. And, um, uh, let's start, well, let's start verse 20.

It says, but when you see Jerusalem, he's talking to the people in front of him. That day, he's talking to them, those disciples.

When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that it's desolation has come near. Then let those who were in Judea flee to the mountains and let those who are inside the city depart and let not those who are out in the country enter it.

Quick thing here real fast, uh, check out the early history of the church. You'll see that Christian apologists, people like Eusebius, uh, was it, uh, books, book six, chapter three.

I think maybe it is. I might get that little wrong. Eusebius actually makes a remark on this text from the Olivet discourse and says that the early

Christians in Jerusalem at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem were the only ones to escape because they were giving a warning by the

Lord here to flee the city when they saw the city surrounded by armies. And they did.

It's a fact of history. To a town called Pella. Yeah. To a town called Pella. The early Christians escaped the judgment upon Jerusalem because they were warned by Jesus that as soon as you see this happening, flee the city.

And they did. They went to a town called Pella. That's a matter of historic record. Eusebius mentions it as well.

So they obeyed Jesus here. They thought it was referring to them. In verse 22, it says this, for these are days of vengeance to fulfill all that is written.

Wait a minute. Wait a tick. Isaiah 61, Brandon was acting like Jesus didn't know like that part about judgment was in there.

He only quotes half the verse. He leaves off the part of judgment. Uh, no, Jesus was very well aware of exactly how redemptive history was going to flow.

And Jesus is preaching the gospel part of Isaiah. And then in Luke 21, he tells them, these are the days of vengeance in order that all that is written be fulfilled.

But wait a second. That's, that sounds similar to what Isaiah said there in Isaiah 61. He says to proclaim the year of the

Lord's favor and the day of vengeance of our God. Seems like Jesus knew how the story was going together because in the beginning of the ministry, he's saying, this is me.

Spirits upon me. Anointed. Good, good news. And then in Luke 21, he warns them, these are the days of vengeance.

What days of vengeance? The days of vengeance that Isaiah promised. Because, and we, I'd love to do this whole thing on eschatology today, but we, we don't have time.

If you read Malachi chapter three, Malachi chapter five, four, Malachi three.

Sorry. Yeah. There's another one. Not a fifth one. Not a fifth one. Okay. So let's, uh, I'll go ahead and read it. So in chapter three, if you read it, it says that the

Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple. The messenger comes first. And then the

Lord whom you seek will come to his temple. So God himself is coming to his temple. And then it says the messenger of the covenant whom he delight behold, he is coming says the

Lord of hosts, but who can endure the day of his coming and who can stand when he appears for he's like a refiner's fire and like a fuller soap, he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver.

And they will bring offerings and righteousness to the Lord. Hey, that's, that's redemption. That's forgiveness.

That's a cleansing of sin. So Messiah comes after the forerunner. He comes to his temple. Did Jesus do that?

Did God himself come to his own temple? He did. And what did he do? Jesus brought purification. He brought salvation.

He brought forgiveness, but it keeps going. It keeps going. It says in verse five, then

I will draw near to you for judgment. I'll be a swift witness against the sorcerers, against the adulterers, against those who swear falsely against those who oppress the hired worker and his wages, the widow and the fatherless against those who thrust aside the sojourner and do not fear me says the read

Matthew 23. Jesus's indictment before the amount of olives and before the, um, the

Olivet discourse, the indictment upon the covenant breaking Jews and leadership in his day. Same stuff.

That's what he's indicting them on. And so the promise of the Messiah, when he was coming to bring salvation, atonement, forgiveness, he's going to be cut off.

The temple is going to be destroyed. It was going to be salvation, purification, and judgment. Isaiah 61 is completely consistent with that.

The coming of the Messiah is good news. It's freeing people from bondage. And it's a time of vengeance, the vengeance of our

God. Luke 21, Jesus says, flee the city when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, because his desolation is near.

And he says, these are the days of vengeance in order that all that is written might be fulfilled. It was salvation and judgment.

And they were judged in that generation before they all died. Temple falls, not one stone left upon another, just like Jesus had promised all that vengeance, all the blood of the righteous upon that generation, exactly as Jesus says.

Matthew chapter 23, chapter 24, Luke 21, Mark 13. It's a consistent story.

Not to get too deep on that point, but Malachi calls him the messenger of the covenant. The messenger of the covenant.

And the Old Testament calls the angel of the Lord the same one who mediates the covenantal blessing for obedience and the covenantal cursing of disobedience for God's people.

And so he actually draws near to wage war and to make judgments and to bring blessing for obedience.

And so you have the same thing applied to Jesus. The prophecy about him and Malachi saying the messenger of the covenant is coming.

And so when Jesus gets up and reads from the scroll of Isaiah, he's saying, I'm the messenger of the covenant. I've come to enforce sanctions.

I've come to bring blessing. I've come, the spirit of the sovereign Lord is upon me. He's anointed me to preach good news. I've come to bring the blessing and salvation of God's kingdom.

But at the same time, the covenant breakers should tremble in fear because I've come to mediate the curses.

And that's terrifying for those that have violated the covenant. What does John the Baptist's first words announce in Matthew chapter 3?

Matthew chapter 3, after showing that Jesus has the royal right to the throne of David, the whole story of Jesus there, recapitulating the story of Israel.

It's an amazing thing how Matthew clearly has the whole story of Israel recapitulated in the true and perfect Israel, Jesus.

And then it actually says that the forerunner, John the Baptist, is introduced in Matthew's narrative.

And what's the first words out of John's mouth in the ministry in Matthew chapter 3? Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is in hand.

He says, you brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come? He says, the winnowing fork is in his hand.

The ax is already laid at the root of the trees. He says, bring fruit worthy of repentance. The ax laid at the root of the trees means that the ax has already been swung and the teeth of the ax are right there in the trunk and it's ready to take it down.

And so they clearly understood, John did, Jesus did, that Christ's coming comes with, of course, blessings and curses.

It comes with salvation and judgment. It comes with gospel and with vengeance.

And that's precisely what you see in the narrative throughout the New Testament and in history with the destruction of the

Jewish temple. And here's the point. Only Yahweh can mediate covenantal blessings and curses.

And so who's Jesus? Yeah. The point of the whole thing is that the only person authorized to mediate the

Father's will is the second person of the Trinity. So I was just gonna say quickly, he starts off that little bit there, you know, kind of taking a little pot shot, you know, as if you were to examine

Jesus' words honestly and critically, Brandon, I believe Jeff just provided a very well, very honest and critical explanation of that text.

You know, so I, you know, just, it's like, bro, don't say those things if you're not willing to do the same thing, you know?

And I also reject, I mean, I get what he's saying, but I reject the fundamentalist. Right. Because the title, because I can promise you,

Brandon, there's a lot of people that would call themselves Christian fundamentalists would take one look at us and say we were probably going to hell.

Yeah, I honestly want a definition of that word because fundamentally, yes, I believe the text.

What he means when he says that is orthodox. Yeah. That's what he means whenever he uses that term. Yes. Fundament.

Fundament is that bottom level, the basic, and what he really is firing at is people who believe this is

God's word. Yeah, you basically believe the Bible. Yeah. You're a fundamentalist. People who believe that God spoke and you should obey his word, you're a fundamentalist.

If that's what it means, then give me the t -shirt. Yeah, exactly. I'll take it. I'll take it.

You owe me a Yerba. I'll just go take it from the fridge. Yeah, there's plenty of cases in Yerba.

I got a few in there. Let's go to it. Sure. Jesus would take what I would argue would be a more progressive approach.

He quotes scriptures that negate things that are talking about the dead.

Here's an obvious. Did you hear what he said there? He negates things talking about judgment. No, he didn't. No, he didn't.

He quotes that part in the synagogue, and then later in the very same gospel, he quotes the day of vengeance of our

God. Jesus clearly knew what Isaiah's story was. If you read Isaiah, by the way, thinking critically, how about we actually take a look at Isaiah?

How about we look at the instances in the book of Isaiah that talk about the coming of the Messiah coming with salvation and judgment?

If you need a really detailed description of exactly what they were facing in that generation, read

Isaiah 65. It's huge. Isaiah 65, God speaks to his covenant people, and he tells them, he says, you're guilty of all this sin.

And he says, you're going to be thirsty. My servants will drink. You're going to go hungry. My servants will eat. He says,

I will call my people by a new name. He's going to judge the covenant breakers and give his people a new name.

Cross reference, Matthew 21, 22, where he says he's taking the kingdom away from the unfaithful and giving it to those who will produce its fruit.

Exactly. So Jesus knows the story. Jesus isn't missing things. He knows the whole story of redemption there is completely consistent.

And guess what? It all happened exactly as promised. There's no prophecy about Jesus in the

Old Testament. Brandon's going to tell us that. That's not about Jesus. Isaiah 53 is not about Jesus. That's not about Jesus.

Isn't it amazing that all that stuff was prophesied? It actually happened in the first century. The New Testament writers give testimony towards it.

It's coming. It's going to happen. I mean, look, guys, if you just read the book of Acts, just read the book of Acts, you'll see exactly what the church believed.

What were they being accused of? This was another king. There's another king, Jesus. But further, they say this.

They say the accusation against the early Christians was this. They're saying that this Jesus is going to come and destroy this place and take away the customs delivered to us.

So the message of the early Christians in Jerusalem, oddly, sounds like Daniel 9.

Oddly, sounds like Isaiah 61. Oddly, sounds like Malachi chapter 3.

Isn't that weird? Isn't it? That's weird. It sounds like Joel 2. That you're going to have the signs poured out and blessings and prophecy and spiritual gifts and then blood and fire and pillars of smoke.

Like all that stuff. That's weird how it all matches. It all happened exactly on time as planned. Isn't it weird how the

New Testament authors seem to understand the flow of that story and Brandon doesn't? It's because Brandon doesn't read the Bible critically.

No, he doesn't. He likes to pretend scholarship.

But in reality, he just announces things. He just adopted presuppositions. Now, we all have them. I'm not complaining about it.

Everybody has presuppositions. That's not the question. It's the question is whether your presuppositions comport with the facts.

Whether your presuppositions are consistent with the text. Brandon has adopted presuppositions.

He's adopted the presuppositions he has about his sexual ethics, about how to view the Bible, and all he does is just go about announcing them.

He just announces them. I'll announce them. But he doesn't justify it. He doesn't think critically. Don't be fooled by it.

It's just the lingo you adopt in that world. You try to act high scholarship.

You try to act like you're really handling the text. But in reality, Brandon doesn't go to the text. He's not concerned with the consistency of the text.

You'll see in a moment here, he doesn't even believe certain things were said. The text says they were said. Brandon's like, yeah, I don't think

Jesus said that. Why? Because John Dominic Crossan. Because the Jesus seminar. Well, it doesn't do any good to announce it.

That's fine. But is it true? Show me. Before you go, look at how good his beard looks.

Can we get James's beard? Look at that. Can we just get a shot of James's beard? I mean, look at that. Let's all take a look.

It looks like he's about to eat some taco time. But I mean, that beard is gorgeous. No, but it's even better, though.

The salt and pepper there on the cheeks. And honestly, you'd expect nothing less from a man of such precision.

But look at those lines. You could cut yourself on those lines. You know what it is? I'll just go ahead and say it right now.

That's right. What it is, is so much wisdom has poured out of that mouth. It just fell on his chin. Look at it.

It's just, you know what I'm saying? The gray hair wisdom. It's just like all that wisdom just spilled on his chin. I just,

I love this. I'm puffed up. I love this right when you stopped. Because, you know, for the most part, he sat there pretty quiet.

And then it's like he got to the point where he'd had enough. And he just, right when you stopped, he's like, okay, bucko.

He's like, all right, let's do this. All right, when James is upset with you, he calls you bucko.

Yeah. When someone tried to hit him in his car with their car once, he was like, 9 -1 -1 bucko.

That's, yeah. You had to be there. That's, anyways, nobody here was. It's a Christian expletive.

Okay, here we go. It's like scuba. It's as bad as it gets. A really plain, obvious problem.

First of all, he holds the scriptures and views them as the very words of God.

Because he says, today, these things are fulfilled in your ears. And then he stops where he stops, because that is yet a future fulfillment.

There is a partial fulfillment in him. You're making it impossible for there to be such thing as prophecy.

Do you believe Jesus was prophesied in the scriptures? The way that I think you're interpreting that scripture is, again, not how

Jesus would have interpreted it, or any Jewish reader of the Jewish scriptures would have interpreted it. I think this is one of the biggest problems.

I got a Jewish reader. Except the New Testament authors did. I got here. They're Jewish.

Can I introduce you to a Jewish reader? And I'm just like, please do that. I have to apologize. Is it bathroom time?

It is, because for some reason, the last, everyone knows that Luke and I have small bladders, but mine's probably worse than yours.

You're a little bit older, that's why. Maybe, yeah, stop that. Don't mention it. Hints of seriousness.

The last couple of weeks, we've been so crazy busy. You have no idea. It's been so nuts. I haven't got a chance to do proper bathroom stuff that I need to do.

So I'm gonna hand it over. I know it's bad. I know it's bad. I keep leaving during the middle of the show to use the bathroom, but it just needs to happen.

Otherwise, I won't be able to think. I'll be so focused on the fact that I need to use the bathroom. I won't be able to think. So I'll be right back. All right.

Yeah, we'll hold it down for you. Yeah. Well, I have a Jewish author that might have something to say about that.

Perhaps you're familiar with the Apostle Paul. We referenced Acts already. And at the end of Acts, this is what

Paul says. Acts 26, verse 22. To this day, I have had the help that comes from God.

And so I stand here testifying both to small and great, saying nothing but what the prophets and Moses said would come to pass.

That the Christ, the Messiah, must suffer. And that by being the first to rise from the dead, he would proclaim light both to our people and to the

Gentiles. So there's a Jewish writer. What do you mean our people? Right. No, I'm serious.

What people is he talking about? The Jews. Yes, thank you. So we have the promise of salvation going to both

Jews and Gentiles. We have the promise that the Messiah would suffer and die both.

And we have all of this where? In the prophets and Moses. So all of this is contained in the

Old Testament scriptures about the message of Jesus. They cite another passage.

I know Jeff goes and takes him to the road to Emmaus and the disciples that are confused there. They're walking along and Jesus comes along and they're saying, don't you know what happened?

It's crazy. You know, he's dead and all of this. And this is what Jesus says to them.

They quote this in the episode, Luke 24, 25. And he said to them, Oh, foolish ones and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken.

Was it not necessary that the Messiah should suffer these things and enter into his glory?

And beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them in all the scriptures, the things concerning himself.

And just to be clear, those are the Jewish prophets. Correct. These are the Jewish scriptures.

Correct. How about one more? First Peter 1 .10. Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours, searched and inquired carefully inquiring what person or time the spirit of Christ in them,

Old Testament prophets, inquiring what person or time the spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories.

So here is three direct places in scripture that the scriptures are referenced as speaking about the coming of the

Messiah, his mission, what he was going to do, the salvation that he was going to bring to the Jews and Gentiles.

And so the idea that somehow the New Testament writers had a different view of these things.

No, this is the orthodox biblical Christian consistent view, was that they saw the Old Testament scriptures as referring to the one on whom all history culminates, and that's

Jesus Christ. Amen. And they were Jewish. They're Jewish. That was kind of the point. I know you're in the bathroom, but...

No, I'm just putting a cherry on top. Yeah, that's right. And they were Jewish. Yes. That's not how the Jews did it, but apparently...

The Jews did it. Jew did it. I'm very playful today.

No more Yerba for this man. I just wanted to see if that was a purpose or an accident. I didn't get a lot of sleep last night, so I'm trying to break in my house.

And yeah, and Luke also didn't get a lot of sleep. Yeah, it was a weird night. So when we get like this, we get a little punchy.

So, all right, here we go. Problems with fundamentalist Christianity is that it reads back into the

Hebrew Bible prophecies that weren't meant to be prophecies. Isaiah 53 is not about Jesus.

Except, except, except... I'm sorry. Don't let him get fired on that one. On the road to Emmaus, Jesus, the resurrected

Lord, chastises these disciples on the road to Emmaus. He calls them foolish, slow of heart to believe all that the prophets had spoken.

And then what does it say takes place, Brandon? Is that the Lord of glory, the one you say you follow, took them through the

Old Testament and all the places that it spoke about him. You're denying that that took place.

Jesus did that. Okay. Couple things here. First and foremost, we don't know what scriptures Jesus quoted in that passage.

So it's a bit of a strange argument to try to use an ambiguous passage that says Jesus looked at all of the lone prophets and talked about where they spoke of him.

You gonna say something? It's you. Okay. So, so, where do we even go with this?

There's so many places. So the, the thing to address, I think first would be

Isaiah 53. Isaiah 53. He says, it's, it's not about Jesus. He said that, right? Yeah. Oh yeah.

Okay. Yeah. Isaiah 53, not about Jesus. So we, we could do a whole show on this.

Psalm 22. But let's, but let's look specifically at the one that he said is not about Jesus. There's, there's so much great study on this.

Isaiah 53 is just epic. Now, a little bit of background, if you didn't know this, I think this will encourage you.

Um, there was a time where people used to allege that, that Isaiah 53, a book written about 700 years before Jesus, uh, uh, in his coming in his ministry, uh, people used to allege that that's probably an interpolation.

Like somebody put that in the text because that's clearly Jesus. So in other words, someone put that into the text after the time of Jesus to put all the story of Jesus into Isaiah, pretend like that it was pre -Christ, all of that.

People used to try to make those arguments. It has happened in history. People will try to say that's clearly Jesus. It's obviously

Jesus. Someone added that, right? That got added to the text later. That's not from the original

Isaiah. Well, um, in the late 1940s, a little shepherd boy named Muhammad is throwing rocks into caves in the area of the

Qumran. And, uh, here's a, something crashed, something break. And so they go down into these caves and lo and behold, what they find, they find all of these pots with scrolls rolled up inside these pots.

They were put there, uh, about 200 years before the time of Jesus. So, okay.

We have tons of stuff there. This is known as the find of the Dead Sea Scrolls. You've probably heard about them.

So Dead Sea Scroll find is found in late 1940s. And what do they find in there?

Lots of stuff. There's stuff from the Bible in there. There's personal stuff. There's just all kinds of things in there.

But one of the things that they find amazingly in the Dead Sea Scrolls is the scroll of Isaiah.

And amazingly, it's an entire scroll of the book of Isaiah. And the only difference between that scroll of Isaiah and what we have today in our text, both

Christians and Jews, is differences in authorship, style, spelling, those sorts of things. The text is the same.

And lo and behold, what was in the Dead Sea Scrolls copy of Isaiah, Isaiah 53.

Huh. Yeah. Isaiah 53. Which you said predates Christ by... About 200 years. So who slipped in there and put that in there?

Amazingly. So all those arguments before, that's an interpolation. Someone added that after the fact. It's like, well, okay, you're gonna have to deal with Dead Sea Scrolls now,

Isaiah 53. And of course, you guys have all heard the rumors and the stories about Jewish people avoiding Isaiah 53 because it's too controversial.

Well, yeah, I can see why. I mean, when you read Isaiah 53, it's very clear who it is.

Now, again, I said this to Brandon as well. The chapter and subdivisions are modern innovation in the

Bible. And so we need to be careful to take note of that when we're doing our exegesis, is that we can't say, okay, 53, one.

It totally disconnected from everything else. No, you got to start this actually a little bit further ahead. Isaiah 52, starting in verse 13.

You could even go back to Isaiah 42. Oh, for sure. We're talking about the servant of Yahweh here who brings justice to the nations.

How about Isaiah 1? How about Isaiah 1? Let's just start there. How about Isaiah 2? How about Isaiah 9? Isaiah 11.

That's a good one too. I'm just saying. Yeah, no, I'm messing with you. Okay. So yeah, the whole book,

Isaiah, is this multifaceted look at the Mashiach and his ministry and his death for sin.

There's so many different portraits of the Messiah in the Old Testament. His victory, his kingdom, his humiliation, his death for sin, all that.

It's these different portraits of Jesus. But when you pull them all together, it's like, wow, this is clearly divinely inspired.

Nobody could get this right. Hundreds and even over a thousand years before the timing of the events themselves.

But Isaiah 52, it says, Behold, my servant shall act wisely. He shall be high and lifted up and shall be exalted.

As many were astonished at you. His appearance was so marred beyond human semblance and his form beyond that of the children of mankind.

So shall he sprinkle many nations. Kings shall shut their mouths because of him.

Sounds like someone with all authority, right? That's right. For that which has not been told them, they see. And that which they have not heard, they understand.

Who has believed what he has heard from us? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? For he, this servant of the

Lord, grew up before him like a young plant and like a root out of dry ground. He had no form or majesty that we should look at him and no beauty that we should desire him.

Does that sound like Jesus to you? We found the Messiah. We found the Messiah. He's from Nazareth. Can any good thing come from Nazareth?

What? And that's what's so shocking to everybody about Jesus is like, wait, I thought this was supposed to be like the king of the world and all the nations come to receive salvation through him.

What's he doing being a carpenter's son in a place called Nazareth? It's like a nothing place on the map.

What? This can't be the king of the world. This doesn't make any sense. He looks like us. He's hanging out with tax collectors and prostitutes.

He doesn't look like the king of the world. And he's dying this violent death. That doesn't look like the king of the world. And so it says this.

He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. And as one from whom men hide their faces, he was despised and we esteemed him not.

Sound like Jesus? Sounds a lot like Jesus rejected by his own people. His own people helped to put him on trial and bear false witness against him.

And it says, surely, listen, he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows.

Yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God and afflicted. So check it out. It says that he is bearing the grief and sorrow of God's people.

But they were going to think that he was actually being punished by God, which is precisely what the

Jewish covenant breaking people thought of Jesus on the cross. He is dying for his own sins because he's a false teacher.

He's a false prophet. He's dying because Yahweh is opposed to him. But the text says he was bearing their griefs and their sorrows.

And then it says this verse five, but he was pierced for our transgressions. He was crushed for our iniquities.

Upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace. And with his wounds, we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray.

We have turned everyone to his own way. And the Lord, Yahweh, has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Now, all attempts to make this Israel, because Israel, absolutely,

Israel's vocation was to be the servant of God. They were called to be God's light in the world. They were called to be

God's servants. God calls Israel, the people of Israel, his servants. But it's interesting, as you get further into Isaiah, it goes from talking about the plural people of Israel as the servant of God to a singular person as the servant of the

Lord. Yes. And it's interesting because Israel, how's their sin look?

Is it kind of spotty? I mean, is it, how's their righteousness? Good? Is Israel sort of like the crown of like, that's righteousness?

Is their story one of like consistency and righteousness? Or is it a lot of face planting and sin and rebellion? Israel is not perfect.

Israel has sin. Israel can't take away the sins of anybody because they are not a holy and perfect sacrifice.

Israel has spots and blemishes. That's the point. In your chapter 53 right now? Yeah. And three chapters later,

God divorces them. Yeah, yeah. You get into the covenant lawsuit. Exactly. The proof of all that is that they went into exile.

Yeah. That's how you know they weren't righteous. What was the sacrifice for the sins of God's people supposed to be? No spot, no blemish.

Why? Because it had to be a sinless, spotless lamb. Passover. Nobody can take away the sins of anybody who is themselves a sinner.

Yeah. And it's interesting because it says the Lord, Yahweh is laying on this servant, this righteous singular servant.

He's laying on him the iniquity of God's people. And then it says this, he was oppressed and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth.

Like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, so he opened not his mouth.

Sound a lot like Jesus going to the trial, not defending himself, not fighting back. He's being led like a lamb to the slaughter.

At least the New Testament authors think so when they quote this. When they actually quote that, that Jesus isn't fighting back. He's not trying to get out of it.

He even says to Pilate, Pilate's like, I have the power to let you go. And Jesus says, you don't have any power except that which is given to you by God.

And Jesus knew where he was going. He says, I'm going to Jerusalem. They're going to crucify me. And three days later, I'm going to rise again. He knew exactly why he was going.

And he didn't stop anybody. He, like Pilate's like, would you please help me? Yeah. Help me help you.

Right? That's Pilate's scene there. Pilate's like, don't you know, I can help you. Please give me something to work with.

And Pilate even knows that Jesus is so innocent, righteous that he actually, as a public act, in historical record from the government itself in Rome, he washes his hands and he gives the verdict before the people.

I find no fault. I find no fault. There's my judgment. This is the court. There's my judgment. He's innocent.

No fault. And they're like, crucify him anyway. So he says, when you see to it, you take responsibility. My hands are clean in this because my judgment is this man is righteous and he is innocent.

And so that's what happens. But Jesus goes like a lamb led to the slaughter. What's that look like? Lambs just go. They just follow.

They don't fight. They're not resistant. They're just going along with it. And that's what Jesus did, like a lamb led to the slaughter. And it says, by oppression and judgment, he was taken away.

And as for his generation who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living.

Why? Here it is. Stricken for the transgression of my people. That's not Jesus, Brandon.

That's not Jesus. A righteous one who has the sins of God's people laid on him, who actually dies a violent death.

There's that word cut off again. Where was, that was also Daniel 9. That's weird. It says Daniel 9, the Messiah is going to be cut off.

He's going to die a violent death. And then the second temple is destroyed. Isaiah 53, interesting, says that he's going to be cut off out of the land of the living, but not just that he's going to die.

It says very clearly that he's going to die for the transgression of God's people. And here's where it gets really interesting.

Are you ready for this? And they made his grave with the wicked. Jesus died with criminals, right?

And with a rich man and his death. Is there hints there of Joseph of Arimathea, rich man's tomb?

Although he had done no violence and there was no deceit in his mouth. You have to pause here. Yeah. You have to, have to, have to, have to pause here because when

Jewish apologists try to say that Isaiah 53 is about the people of Israel, first of all, major problems at the very start.

But second of all, does Israel have sin? Yeah. Does Israel have sin and deceit? As a matter of fact, if you read

Isaiah 53 and you've been reading the whole text, you can remember Isaiah 6. And Isaiah 6 is where Isaiah gets that glorious scene of the holiness of God, where it says, holy, holy, holy.

And what does he do? He covers his mouth and he says, I'm a man of unclean lips.

Listen, the prophet who wrote Isaiah said that his own lips were unclean, but this righteous servant that he's talking about, who's gonna take the sins of God's people, it says that he had done no violence, nor was there any deceit in his mouth.

Isaiah recognizes that this one who's coming is not like me. I've got unclean lips.

There's no deceit in his mouth. And then it says, yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him. He has put him to grief when his soul makes an offering for guilt.

Here it is. Oh, I love it. More people wonder like, Jesus said that the Old Testament prophesied his resurrection.

It does. Several places you can point that out. He chastised his followers for not understanding that he was gonna rise again from the dead, even though he told him he was going to personally and the prophet said that he would rise from the dead.

If you look there, what's text say in verse 8? He's cut off out of the land of living. So verse 8, he's cut off out of the land of living for the sins of God's people.

And then in verse 10, it says that he sees his offspring. He prolongs his days.

So he dies and then his days are prolonged. He sees his spiritual offspring. That sounds like resurrection to me.

And then it says, the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. Out of the anguish of his soul, he shall see it and be satisfied.

By his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, singular, make many to be accounted righteous and he shall bear their iniquities.

Therefore, I will divide him a portion with the many. He shall divide the spoil with the strong because his soul, he poured out his soul to death and he was numbered with the transgressors, counted as guilty.

Yeah. Yet he bore the sin of many and makes intercession for the transgressors. Sounds like substitutionary atonement to me.

Substitutionary atonement, sounds like Jesus, sounds like the Lamb of God, sounds like the righteous one. You mentioned the prophecy in Isaiah, common verse that you go to with your

Jehovah's Witness friends to prove that Jesus is called Jehovah in the scriptures of John chapter 12.

He has blinded their eyes, hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes and understand with their heart and turn and I would heal them, right?

So John is quoting Isaiah six in there. And it says, Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him.

Who's the him? Jesus. And so if Jesus, Jesus, it's, here's the thing

I think people need to understand. It's not just, can you learn, memorize, quote, and see the promises about the

Messiah and what he would do from the Old Testament fulfilled in the new. It's that Jesus permeates every aspect of the scriptures.

It's not just a one -off promise here and there. It's in the patterns. It's in his very presence that you see him.

John himself says that Isaiah saw his glory and spoke of him, Jesus.

So that's the second person of the Trinity in the Old Testament, right? He was the one, he was the glory that Isaiah saw.

It was his glory. I was just gonna say, I mean, who would agree with him on his take of Isaiah 53?

Present day Jews and Muslims. Like no Christian ever in the history of the

Christian church has said that Isaiah 53 does not prophesy Christ. Like no one says that.

There's just too much to ignore. Even Isaiah 50, Isaiah 51, Isaiah 52, you're talking about the servant of Yahweh, the one who was there when the

Red Sea was parted, the one who pierces the dragon, all of this language about his beard being torn out, like all of this, setting his face like flint to go on his destiny.

And then you have the continual language about his identification with Israel itself.

And then thematically in the New Testament, how he is the new and better and perfect Israelite going into the wilderness and being tempted and succeeding in every way that Israel failed, he succeeds.

So it's thematically, he's there in presence. All of it is just, when you put it all together, it's just, it's too hard to ignore.

Yeah. It's impossible. And further, he's making the point that this isn't about Jesus.

New Testament authors don't make that point. Does he not read his Bible? Matthew.

Well, maybe in the PSV. Yeah. Progressive Standard Version. Matthew chapter eight.

Matthew eight. There's a quotation. Verse 17. This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah.

He took our illnesses and bore our diseases. Where's he quoting from? Isaiah 53. So apparently this first century

Jewish author who keeps saying this was to fulfill what was spoken of the prophet, this was to fulfill what was spoken of the prophet, this was to fulfill, this early

Jewish writer believed something about Isaiah 53 related to Jesus that the 21st century progressive

Christian, gay, LGBT theologian, Brandon Robertson doesn't believe.

The Jewish person in the first century believed it, that Isaiah 53 was related to Jesus. If you read

Isaiah 53, it clearly is about Jesus. Okay, onward. But second of all, when we go, when we're taking the

Hebrew Bible and we try to read back in Christian understandings, one, it's an ahistorical, unscholarly approach to understanding what the

Hebrew Bible is. It's offensive and borders on anti -Semitic. So would you call the writer of Hebrews anti -Semitic?

I think the writer of Hebrews is terribly problematic in many ways, yeah. Okay, so he did what you're saying you shouldn't do, and that's that he took the scriptures from the

Old Testament and showed the fulfillment of Jesus Christ. The Gospel according to Matthew is chocked full in both direct quotation and allusion to Old Testament passages of the fulfillment that Jesus Christ brought in his life and death and resurrection.

Now he said to them, these are my words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and the

Psalms must be fulfilled. Do you think that's just Luke throwing that in there and the Jews didn't say that?

Yes, most likely. Okay. And there's the real story.

Talking about being honest and critical. There it is. That's the real story. I don't think Jesus said that. Now watch.

On what basis? There you go. On what basis, Brandon? Because you think so? No, because you would know this.

My mentor, my dear mentor, John Dominic Crossan in the Jesus Seminar has done extensive research into the historiography of the sayings of Jesus, and the broad consensus outside of conservative

Christian scholarship is that a majority of the teachings in, for instance,

John, are not historical teachings of Jesus Christ. So what Brandon is telling you is that this narrow domain of radical leftist

New Testament scholars like John Dominic Crossan, Funk, all those guys,

Borg from the Jesus Seminar, this radical fringe of liberals on that side, they've voted with marbles about which verses are actually said by Jesus, probably said by Jesus, definitely weren't said by Jesus.

Picture of straws. And they just sort of through colored marbles. They threw colored marbles out, and they were like, yeah,

I think Jesus said that. Jesus very probably said that. Jesus definitely didn't say that. So these guys voted with their marbles, and that's the

Jesus Seminar. And so he's trying to say that this conservative scholarship doesn't accept this.

Yeah, there's a reason for that. I mean, honestly, what's laughable here is

Brandon wouldn't last 10 seconds in a public moderated debate against somebody who actually knows the field of the transmission of the text of the

Bible and how we got it to this day and the amazing wealth that God has given to us with all the thousands of Greek manuscript pieces and copies of the

New Testament in its original language, all of the early translations, church fathers quoting from the

New Testament, the amazing glory of God and God preserving his word, the grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our

God stands forever. He could not handle the realm of the transmission of the text because what we have, we can go back and see consistency from the beginning, and we know that the original text is there in the manuscript tradition.

There was this free transmission of the text, not ruled over by people throughout the first five centuries of the church, controlling its transmission, all those things.

It's just Christians copying and distributing, and God has preserved his word.

So if you go to the actual data, if you go to the set of data that we have with the manuscripts themselves, you would not come up with a story that Brandon or the

Jesus Seminar come up with. What they would say is they have presuppositions about what they would like Jesus to have said, and so they're going to vote with their presuppositions.

I don't like that one. Maybe he said that. Very likely he said that. He didn't say that one. So that's really what we're getting here.

It's just Brandon announcing. He's announcing his commitments. But again, announcing it, Brandon doesn't make it so.

Announcing it doesn't make it so. If conservative Christian scholarship wants to actually look at the evidence and the transmission of the text and the textual history, they want to go to that to say, what did

Jesus actually say? What are the original words of Jesus? I'm going to go with them. If you don't particularly like the teaching of Jesus and you'd like there to be some things taken out because I don't like that he said that, well, then that's a problem of your presuppositions.

It's not a problem with the word of God because from front to back, this claims to be the revelation of God.

That's what you have to aim at. And Brandon does. He just says, I don't believe there's words of God. Some of it's inspired.

What parts? Well, parts that I like. The parts that make me feel good. But the parts that speak against my lust, that speak against my sexual ethics, those are the parts

I don't believe Jesus said. And you know, the Old Testament didn't prophesy about Jesus. But wait a second. The entire

New Testament is filled with going back to, this was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophets.

And this is what was written about me. And this is what the prophets said about Jesus. They all believed that it was fulfillment in Jesus.

It's one redemptive story. Brandon's like, no, no, it's not about Jesus. My question would be this. This is a legitimate question.

I would maybe want to ask Brandon over a cup of coffee one day. Brandon, why do you believe in Jesus?

That's a very good question. Right? Like, I mean, honestly, like at a basic level of like, you give your commitment to somebody to say, this is my

Lord and my savior. If Jesus isn't prophesied in the Old Testament, if it's not summed up and culminating in him in this redemptive story in Christ, if it's not fulfillment of prophecy, then why, pray tell, do you believe in him?

Right? Why? Because he's a first century Jewish itinerant preacher. And you happen to like some of the stuff that he said.

I mean, okay. Like how does this connect to God's story, the story of Israel? Do you even like the

God of the Old Testament, Brandon? Is that, I noticed you don't say that a lot. I'm wondering.

So this is just me thinking out loud, everybody. I don't really know what his position would be on this. But I legitimately would ask that because I'll just be very transparent.

One of the things that anchors my faith in Jesus Christ is the prophecy of Jesus in the Old Testament.

I follow Jesus because Jesus' teachings are consistent with the word of God to Israel. And this is one story of redemption from the same

God landing on Jesus, finding its climax in Jesus. And that's why I follow

Jesus. So I legitimately wanna know, why would you follow Jesus if you don't believe he's the fulfillment of prophecy?

I don't get it. Yeah, I think Romans 1 might have something to say about it. True. I think we're good.

We're good. We're over time now? Yeah, we're. Yeah, but I did say, we did say. So, okay, well, we'll stop there.

I hope this has been a blessing to everybody. And let me try to go to the, oh, there's so many.

Gabe, can you get him up there? Thank you guys for the super chat. You guys have been such a blessing to us. Thank you guys for being a part of this ministry with us.

You are helping us to produce more content. You're blessing us. Kay Hamilton. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Thank you for all you guys do. Keep speaking the truth through love. Thank you, Kay. Bless you, sister. Olivia, I'd love to tell you someday, tell you this, my story of how

I went from Mormonism to rebellion to charismatics and finally to the truth. We'd love to hear it. That's an amazing, amazing testimony there.

Jesse Harris, you guys are turning my wife post mill. I thank you. And what we always say to that, Jesse, is praise

God. Let's get to work. And Mitchell, thank you so much. Thank you for all you guys do.

Bonson, you has been a blessing and brought me to repentance towards brothers who debated in the past with strong and arguments against theonomy. All right,

Mitchell. Praise the Lord. Gerhard, thank you from South Africa. Right on.

Thank you. Dougie Fresh. Elliot Hillis. He's literally next door to us. Thank you.

Elliot Hillis. What's up, Elliot? Austin. Jeff, how do you find more joy in the Lord, struggling to turn head knowledge into heart knowledge and often backslide into sin?

Austin, I'd probably want to spend more time talking to you about that. What I would say is definitely, definitely, definitely get into a tight relationship with your shepherds and pastors who can walk with you.

The key issue here, honestly, is the same issue that Brandon's dealing with. We're either going to believe ourselves, we're going to either believe our own emotions, our own experiences, or we're going to finally land on God spoke, and that's why

I believe it. And so ultimately, I think in your question there, it's highlighting something.

It's a question of where do you stand, brother? Are you standing on the words of God or the words of men? Are you standing on the words of God or your own inner monologue?

If you want joy in God, you have to find your hope in God, and our hope and certainty in God is in His revelation to us.

We have to learn to believe what He says and not how we feel. Learn to believe what He says and not what we want.

And there's where your joy will come. I can promise you that. Stephen, do you guys have any advice on struggling with lust throughout the day or with avoiding looking lustfully at a modestly dressed woman?

You guys want to handle that? I've hurt your eyes. Okay. Sure. Very practically speaking. Yeah. Well, I'd say

Colossians 3 is where I would always go. Colossians 3, the Apostle Paul says, you've been raised up with Christ.

Keep seeking what is above where Christ is seated. And then he says, therefore, because you've been raised up, because you've been made alive, because you're alive with Christ, he says, therefore, put to death what is earthly within you.

And one of the things that he names there of what is earthly within you is sexual immorality. He says, which is idolatry.

So the definition, and I said this to Brandon in the debate, definition for Paul of sexual immorality is it's actually idolatry.

It's seeking worship and pleasure in something other than God. Sexual immorality is idolatrous.

So here's the question you asked, Stephen. Do you love Jesus? Is Jesus your God? Is Jesus your savior?

Is Jesus who you worship? If he is, would you ever allow someone to push you to your knees to worship at the altar of a false

God? I always like to throw it out like that. Let's imagine for a moment that Luke and Zach and I are out on the streets doing evangelism at a mosque, and then they grab us and they pull us inside and they try to thrust us to our knees and to confess that there is one

God, Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet. I'd like to think that all of us would say, no, do what you will.

I won't bow at the altar of a false God. If somebody pulled us into the Mormon temple when we're doing evangelism and says, do these ceremonies, worship this

God. I think I know we would say, kill me. I die first. I'm not worshiping anything other than God.

We all recognize in that context, and Stephen, if you believe in Jesus, I'm sure that you do, you would say, go ahead and kill me.

I'm only worshiping Jesus. But Paul says, sexual immorality is false worship.

It's idolatry. Do you want to kneel? Do you want to bow at that altar? Because that's what we're really dealing with with sexual immorality is ultimately idolatry.

You have to kill it. Killing it has to look like really killing it. I think most of the time, guys, if we're honest with ourselves, we like to slap box our sin, right?

We like to slap it. We like to poke it, right? And we like to keep it in our pocket for later, right?

Let me just keep this here for later. When I reserve the right to sin, I'll keep it right here. In reality, you got to put it to death.

What would it look like? Like last night, someone tried to break into my home. I caught them actually sliding the window open. My family's fine.

Everything's fine. If he came back and got his arm in, trust me, he's not going to be alive. God's law allows for killing intruders like that who mean your family harm.

So if there is somebody out there, if this wasn't random, if it's someone actually trying to harm my family, just know that we're armed to the teeth and everyone in my family can shoot.

And you came within 0 .5 seconds of dying last night. But look, it's providential.

It's providential. When someone was in my house last night, the alarm went off. I went, my family was awake.

We're armed to the teeth. My son and I both came out with weapons. I went to that door last night and I can tell you right now, when

I saw that window open and I heard him sliding the window open, my gun was trained on the window and all

I was waiting for was someone to put themselves through that window. I don't know what they mean to do to my family. What was

I going to do with my gun last night when this man came in to do my family harm? What was I going to do? Use it lethally.

I was going to kill him. Kill him. And listen, I didn't run into that back room with a banana.

I didn't run into the back room ready to just slap him. I ran into the back room with a loaded weapon and it was aimed at the window.

All he had to do was put himself through that window and all I knew then is I have a duty to protect my family and I was going to end his life.

And that would have been the right thing to do as a father to protect my family. And that's what putting an enemy to death looks like.

Ending it. Doing something to actually end it so it can't get up again. So when you talk about lust, what do you have to do to kill your lust?

If you're struggling with the bombardment we get of all these women, on all of our feeds, reels, shorts, all that stuff.

If you struggle with it and you just can't stop yourself, then get it off your phone. Only go via a laptop.

Get a dumb phone. Accountability next to you. With your wife next to you. With a brother next to you. To do what you got to do on your computer.

I don't have TikTok on my phone. We have a TikTok account that we have people that only upload just to make sure people get the gospel on TikTok.

But no one hangs out on TikTok. There's always accountability. I don't have it on my phone. Do you know why I don't have TikTok on my phone?

Because I'm not giving the enemy a foothold. I'm not going to have that harlot woman calling me from her door saying, come inside, come inside.

I'm not going to have it. And so I don't have TikTok on my phone. Why? To preserve my life. To guard myself.

And so some guys might say, I don't know how to handle this on my phone. Get covenant eyes. Get accountability.

Put accountability so that your brother in Christ sees what you're looking at. Get that kind of accountability. Listen, I always put it this way.

If you were in a counseling session with me over pornography and lust, right?

While you're in the session, we're talking to each other about how to put this thing to death and we're in the word. Would you be struggling in the middle of our time together to pull your phone out to go to one of these sites?

Would you? No. Why? Because right now you're under accountability. Right now you're focused on the Lord. There's accountability.

There's safety there. And guess what? Here's a big word. There's freedom there. You're actually free with the accountability. You're enslaved without it.

So get it off your phone. Kill it. If you can't have Facebook on your phone, get off your phone. Use Messenger if you have to talk through Messenger.

Get it off your phone. Don't, certainly I'd say, don't put TikTok on your phone. Good grief. It's like, there's no way out of it.

It's just blasting you with that stuff. Get it off your phone. There's nothing wrong with putting guardrails around yourself, recognizing

I'm a sinner. I fall into sin. I'm going to guard myself with accountability. I can't have access to that.

Like people are like, I don't want to be like a child. Well, stop acting like one. You know?

Every child needs training in some area. Exactly. So accountability, like we have an account with Covenant Eyes through Apologia Church where I don't even know how many men have accounts where the church helps to pay for their

Covenant Eyes because we believe very strongly in it. Like you need accountability. So we'll pay for your Covenant Eyes account. We do that as a church to help men.

We have groups where men meet over this issue so that there's accountability with one another. But what does it look like to put it to death?

You can't put to death drug and alcohol addiction in your life and keep hanging out at the bars. If you're struggling with that idol, you can't hang out at a bar.

You can't do it. If you struggle with a past, like going places that you shouldn't go, stop driving by those places.

Take the long route. Go the other direction. Make it a rule for accountability. I won't even drive past my old stomping grounds.

I had to do that when I came out of my drug and alcohol addiction. I had to specifically... I'd be having a great time of worship with God.

My heart's changed. I love the Lord. I'm doing so well. I'm so grateful to God for redeeming me. And then I would go into this dark funk and I couldn't figure it out.

Why? It's because when I passed by my old stomping grounds, all that stuff came back and I was struggling like I was fresh out of my addiction.

I was struggling. So I had to take the long route. Added 10 minutes to my drive. I just didn't drive by my dealer's house.

I didn't drive by the old places where I would party at the clubs. I just went the other direction.

And every night I had accountability. A Bible study with my friends, my brothers in Christ, every single night for like a year at Starbucks where I knew

I can't use today because I got to see those guys tonight at eight o 'clock and I can't come high.

Yeah. All that's beautiful. Really powerful. I mean, on the aspect of killing it, putting it to death, but at the same time too, don't forget and understand that you need to find the pleasures of God more satisfying than the fleeting pleasures of sin.

So you need to be more satisfied in God than the false promise that the sin is offering you to find fulfillment there.

And so just like Jeff was talking about with having the right weapon, the right tool for the job, the only way to drive that out is through the sword of the spirit.

And so keep short swords and long swords in your pocket in terms of when it's time to go to war and fight.

You know, if you live according to the flesh, you'll die. But if by the spirit, you put to death the deeds of the body, you'll live.

So motivate yourself with righteousness. Understand that the pure in heart will see God. And so if you want to see

God, if you want to have peace, vitality, joy in your Christian life, then you need to not make peace with evil.

And that includes the evil in your own members. And so understand that there are eternal pleasures forevermore at the right hand of God.

And it's much more satisfying than the pleasures of sin. That's not always easy to believe in the moment when you're struggling with temptation and up against it.

But that's ultimately where it has to end is God has to be the most satisfying thing for you. Amen. That's right.

Pleasures of God by John Piper. Battling Unbelief by John Piper as well.

Yeah. Pleasures of God, John Piper, really important study. I don't think he even mentions sex addiction in there, drug and alcohol addiction.

It is all about seeking pleasure in God. He got all of that from Jonathan Edwards. So it's old

Puritan style thinking. And it's all biblical. Go read Pleasures of God by John Piper. Mrs.

Lewis, God bless you. Thank you for that. Chuckle Mania, God bless you. Thank you all so much.

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