Is OCD a Sin Problem?

OCD as a Moral and Spiritual Problem

All right, taking the stepping on the crack thing, you know, I don't want to break my mama's back. I'm not going to step on any of the cracks. I never step on any cracks in my life in any way whatsoever.

You know, you say, let's say you have someone like that and like, I mean, they legitimately think I can never step on a crack. Tim, the question for today's episode is, is OCD a sin problem? Yeah, definitely, man.

Another short, quippy response from you that would definitely, this is, this is one of the times, Tim, to take time and be extremely deliberate in what you're saying and qualify it with a million qualifications so that you can be loving and winsome to everyone.

But there's no need. I mean, and you just, you just, you just say, yeah, like the cool monster that you are. I mean, there's, there's no need. I mean, it's just, yes, it's yes. So why, why is it just a yes?

Why is it? Because I think a lot of people would look at this kind of, they would look at this kind of topic and they would say, they would say at best, they would probably say, well, it's complicated.

So no, it's not, it's not complicated. So you're saying, no, it's not complicated. You're challenging that. So,.

So why are you, why are you? Okay. All right. So you have OCD. I mean, like you have a, you know, quote unquote, like a clinical definition of OCD. And so what's happening is a lot of people, when they hear this, they're thinking about it in like a popular sense, essentially.

So what, what they're hearing you to say is that there's some sort of like spectrum between like, you're talking about an issue where there's a spectrum of behaviors that go from, you know, just mild kind of you know, picky kind of people, like, so people who are picky, like a little bit more picky than normal.

So you're thinking about that all the way up to, you know, the kind of person who is tracing, you know, wood grains on the ground in order to cleanse their defilement for hours at a time or years of their life or something like that.

Right?

So that's, that's so oddly specific. Have you been thinking about that?

No, no, I just came up with that on the spot. So, but think about it though. Like, like what they're thinking is they're thinking of OCD in a popular sense, essentially. So, because like, I mean, these words, they, they don't really mean anything anymore.

Yeah. I mean, most, most people are kind of, you know, it's like a pretty common thing to say like,.

Oh, sorry, that's just my OCD kicking in. Well, that's what I mean. So most people they're, they're using like this expression that's supposed to be a very specific, you know, quote unquote, clinical expression.

You know, they're using this expression that's supposed to sound like a quasi medical diagnosis in a very cavalier and, you know, informal kind of way. And so in that way, if you ask the question is like, OCD, a sin problem, then what they're going to do, like immediately in their mind, they're going to think, well, you know, I kind of like to fold my towel.

I think a lady said this on Twitter, you know, I like to fold my towels three different ways or something like that. So I'm a little bit, you know, I'm wound a little bit tighter than most. I don't know that that's necessarily a sinful, but then that's not really, that's not really what's being talked about.

The Meaning of Obsession and Compulsion

Okay. Like meaning like, you're not like, if you just take a step back for a session for a second, right. And you think about just the meaning of these words, like the literal meaning of these words. So you have like a DSM definition of OCD, and then you have like the literal meaning of what you're talking about.

So like clinical definition of OCD is going to be talking about obsessions and compulsions. Right. But then typically when you think of an obsession, if you were just to take a step back and just think about the word obsession in and of itself, like whatever an obsession is, like an obsession is something that is by definition unhealthy.

Right. Do you get what I'm saying? It will in most, I guess. Yeah. In most scenarios, like if I said I was obsessed with God, you know, I don't know that that's that bad.

Right. So with, with morally neutral things, right. Like with morally neutral things, like if you were to say that you're obsessed with something, the very point, like technically speaking, like the very point at which you become obsessed with something, that's the point where it, you have like a, by definition, like an unhealthy attachment to it.

Right. Right. Yeah. And then like, if you were to think about the word compulsion, like the point in which like something is like a compulsion, like a morally neutral kind of thing, that's the very point generally where like, like the Bible would talk about, like you're mastered to that thing.

Right. Sure. Yeah. So like when you're obsessed with something, like when you get like a, that you have an unhealthy attachment to it, right. That, that like you're fixated on it in your brain, like that's the point where it becomes kind of an idol.

And then when you're compelled to do something, that's typically the point in which you're mastered by that thing. Right. Yeah. So just take the plain meaning of the words in like, in the very like definitions of the words themselves, you're already talking about like things that have transitioned from, Hey, I like, you know, I like good restaurants.

Right. Sure. Yeah. Well, now I'm obsessed with this restaurant. It's like, now you can say it in a jokey way. Right. Right. Yeah. Like I'm obsessed. Yeah. But, but really like what it actually means is, is crossed a line from a normal, like, I really like it into a, like there's something more to it than that.

Right.

Right. Yeah. So you're basically just saying, Hey, the, I mean, the literal words that make up the acronym OCD are all morally negative words.

Right. Right. Right. So now at a popular level, if you're just using it in an ironic sense, you know, like, man, I'm obsessed with Alabama football right now or whatever. Right. You know, if you're just using it in, or I'm obsessed with this song that I just heard, right.

I've been upset. You can use it in an ironic way, but like when you're using them in the actual straightforward sense, they're negative things. Okay. Now, but then when you think about the clinical definition of this, like clinical, you have to put that in quotes because it's like a joke.

It's like, there's nothing medical about this. Okay. So here's what the, you know, the DSM five, you know, the diagnostic statistical manual mental disorders, here's what they call like OCD. Okay. So, all right.

So here's the diagnostic criteria. You either have, have to have the presence of obsessions or compulsions or both. Okay. Okay. Which is kind of like, all right, this is obsessive compulsive disorder.

It's not obsessive or compulsive disorder. Right. So, so think about that now, but obsessions, what are obsessions? Well, there we'll start with that. So they're recurrent and persistent thoughts, urges, or impulses that are experienced at some time during the disturbance as intrusive or unwanted that most individuals cause marked anxiety of distress.

So you have this persistent thoughts that are causing marked anxiety or distress in general. Okay. So if you, if you were to think about something that like a person could be OCD, OCD about, you know, quote unquote, about there's a persistent or recurring thoughts, like I'm going to get a disease or something.

Right. So I don't want to get a disease. So like, I'm obsessed with being healthy. I'm obsessed with being like, like clean. Right. And so I'm afraid of getting a disease. Right. So first like compulsions are defined are the obsessions are defined by reoccurring or persistent thoughts.

And then to the individual attempts to ignore or suppress such thoughts, urges, or images, uh, or to neutralize them with some other thought or action by performing a compulsion. Right. So you have the obsession.

I want to be clean. Right. I don't want to get sick. Like you have that. And then you have a compulsion, right? So the compulsion is like a repetitive behavior, such as hand-washing ordering or checking or mental acts.

Uh, uh, examples are praying, counting, repeating words, silently that the individual feels driven to perform in response to an obsession or according to rules that must be applied rigidly. Right. So you think about it, you have this like anxiety.

I don't want to get sick. I don't want to get sick. Right. Right. So then you have like, that would be the obsession. And then the compulsion is I'm going to wash my hands over and over and over and over again.

Anxiety, Fear, and Being Mastered by Compulsive Behavior

Okay. Sure. Yeah. All right. So by definition, like you have an unhealthy obsession, right? Yeah. I mean, it's not sounded good.

From a biblical perspective. It's not sounded, it's not sounded very good.

I mean, we're already talking about like what the Bible describes as anxiety and fear and things like this that we're not supposed to be characterized by. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And the diagnosis is pretty bad right now.

So far. Right. So now look, all right. So, um, the compulsions are repetitive behaviors, right? And then like to the behaviors or mental acts are aimed at preventing or reducing anxiety or distress are preventing some dreaded event or situation.

However, these behaviors are acts are not connected in a realistic way with what they're designed to neutralize or prevent or clearly excessive, like meaning, like if you were to wash your hands a hundred times in a row, because you're afraid of germs.

Right. That's not realistic. Right. Like it's like, you don't like, that's not the, that that's where it's like out of proportion or whatever. Right. Yeah. You just can't have your life like that. Yeah.

All right. So now like in order, like, like for these things to count, they have the obsessions or compulsions are time consuming. Like for example, they take one hour or more per day, and then they cause clinically, you know, clinically significant distress or impairment in social occupation or, or other important areas of functioning.

Right. So you think about that, like, you're thinking about something that is like significantly affecting your life at this point. Right. This is not just like, I like the towels folded,.

Just like I like them folded. Right. Yeah. Apparently this is the, I'm marking out the.

Wood grain in my, in my wood floor. Right. Right. In order to ward off the territorial spirits or something like that. Right. Like, or to cleanse my defilement of guilt or, you know, whatever, like, so like the, the issue is, is time consuming is taking an hour more a day, or is causing psych significantly significant distress or impairment.

And then, you know, it's like what, what the dike, you know, the diagnosis says is the obsessive compulsive symptoms are not attributed to physiological effects of a substance. Right. So these are not the result of drug abuse, right.

Or medication or another medical condition. So, I mean, like, this is like, um, and then, you know, it's not better explained by any of the other psychological disorders. They have a list of like 50 of them or whatever.

Right. Yeah. Essentially they're just, they're. Essentially what the DSM is trying to do is it's trying to explain a spiritual problem without calling it a spiritual problem.

Biblical Answers to Anxiety, Fear, and Idolatry

Right. Right. So like, there's nothing like, basically this is not the result of drug, drug abuse or like drug use or abuse. This is not a result of like another medical dish, a condition, right. It's just the, this is a distinct quote unquote medical condition in itself, but then they haven't explained anything related to pathology.

So you have an individual who comes and who basically is washing her hands a hundred times a day. You say, all right, you have OCD, you know, and then you're supposed to ask, well, well, what caused it?

Right. And so the whole question, like for the Christian over and against for the materialist, right. So the materialist is going to say, well, that's abnormal, right. They can't help it. They want to stop it.

They can't help it. It's abnormal. It must be not their fault. Right. They must be suffering from a mental disorder. It's a disorder. Yeah. It's a, yeah, it's a disorder. So they're going to word it in that kind of language or as a Christian just looks at that and you say, hey, yeah, well, I get it.

Yeah. I mean, I get what's happening. Right. So the Bible says, be anxious for nothing, but everything with prayer, suffocation with Thanksgiving, let your request be made known to God. You know, God didn't give us a spirit of fear, but a power of love, self-control and a sound mind.

So the Bible talks about how to deal with anxiety. Right. And like the Bible talks about how to deal with anxiety and talks about how to deal with fear and the way that you deal with your anxiety and you deal with your fear is not just to give yourself fully over to these compulsive behaviors.

Right. So you don't fix like the original anxiety. Right. Or the obsession, like you get obsessed with this one thing, you have this unhealthy preoccupation, but you don't fix it by turning to like an enslaving behavior that you're going to repeat over and over again.

That has no realistic like chance whatsoever of fixing the fundamental, like fear that you're, you've given yourself over to. Does that make sense? Yeah. So, so yeah, I mean, you asked me like, is this a spiritual problem or a physical problem?

I just, I don't, I don't understand why it's complicated.

Fear of Death, Superstition, and Works Righteousness

Yeah. It seems like it's, you're hitting a lot of really bad boxes with this one. So, you know, there's the whole fear aspect to this, right. When the Bible, when the Bible tells us not to fear you know there's sort of the, this idea that you're like, you fear so much that you're actually mastered by it and you start creating these sort of rituals, I guess, if you want to call them that, that are meant to quell the fear, but don't actually relate to the initial problem in any way, in any realistic way.

They're just like a, they're just like a superficial comfort for you in the moment. So like, so in that instance, you're talking about like, you know, Paul talks about disciplining his body into submission, right.

And being master over his own body and, and you know, we're not supposed to be. All things are lawful for me. Not all.

Things are helpful. All things are lawful. I won't be mastered by anything. Right. So,.

So you're, you're dealing with that aspect of things, like you're not doing that either. And then, and then I think too, there is this, there is this idea of like, with OCD, you are trying to be, you're trying to control things that aren't always, even things that aren't really something that you could ever realistically control.

And so in that sense, I think you are trying to serve as your own God, and you know, maybe an isolated way, maybe you're not like actively thinking, I want to be my own God, but then I think this is a, this is an aspect of trying to be your own God in the sense of like, I want to control the things around me.

I want to control the outcomes around me. And so, so it just, from my perspective, it seems like, you know, you're hitting a lot of different sins with OCD. Maybe you're not like hitting every single one every single time, but you know, this doesn't sound like good territory to be in basically.

Sure. I mean, I think the famous example of this would be like Howard Hughes. He was on a date with the supermodel or whatever, and they went to use the bathroom and, you know, he was so afraid to touch the door because he was a germaphobe or whatever, that he was stuck inside the bathroom for several hours waiting for the next person to come in and let him out.

So needless to say, that date didn't go very well, but I mean, you know, he ended up, you know, trapped in his house because he was so afraid of germs, you know, with that kind of thing. So, I mean, obviously, I mean, there's like elements of this kind of thing where it's just like, you're just talking about pervasive, like life-dominating fear.

I mean, it can get really irrational to the point where you think, you know, like the whole, like don't step on a crack or you'll break your mother's back kind of thing. That would be like the obsession, right?

Like that would be the obsession. And so like the behaviors or the mental acts, they're not connected in a realistic way with what they're designed to neutralize or prevent or clearly excessive.

So, all right, taking the stepping on the crack thing, you know, I don't want to break my mama's back. I'm not going to step on any of the cracks. I never step on any cracks in my life in any way whatsoever.

You know, let's say you have someone like that and like, I mean, they legitimately think I can never step on a crack. Okay. Maybe they don't think like I'm actually going to break my mama's back, but you know, they think like, oh, I don't, I just don't want to step on the cracks.

Like it feels wrong when I step on the cracks, you know? So, what do you tell that person? You know, like, how do you, how do you get out? Like, I understand, you know, hey, we're saying this is bad. Like, don't, you know, you don't want to be this way, but then how do you actually, I mean, do you just start like, as, as the way that you fix it, you just start stepping on every single crack.

You force yourself to take incredibly short steps so that you step on every.

Available crack on the sidewalk. Yes. I mean, so, I mean, part of this is like a religious thing. Okay. Okay. So, people are like inherently religious. So, I mean, part of it's just like being in the grip of paralyzing fear and, you know, that kind of stuff, but then people are inherently religious and they feel guilty, right?

They feel guilty. And then they can, basically people can be very superstitious and very, but I mean, so a lot of these like compulsions, like you have this certain obsession, right? And then you can have like certain compulsions that are not really related to these obsessions, but then in many ways, what they're trying to do is they're trying to fix this fundamental guilt problem that people have, right?

So they can get involved in these kind of bizarre, like rituals, like what I've described, you know, like tracing a wood grain or something like that. You can get involved in these, you know, bizarre rituals in attempt to find, like to fundamentally cleanse, like this defilement that you have.

So in some sense, like some of this is related to like a works righteousness kind of thing. In general, some of this just related to man's held captive by the fear of death, right? So like in the Howard Hughes kind of, kind of scenario, you have a man who's just held captive to the fear of death.

And for good reason, you know, like you live in a life in a fallen world and it's a scary place. And you have some pointed out, a man wants to die. And after that judgment. And so you just have people who are held captive to the fear of death to such a degree that they're just going to engage in bizarre behaviors in order to try to like, that aren't realistic, you know, and Philippians, I mean, Paul tells us in Philippians, what to do about this, you know, whatever's true, whatever's noble, whatever's, you know, excellent.

If there's anything worth their praise, think on these things. Right. And so, I mean, what OCD people are helped with is to like, to think on what's true in this scenario. And what's true is, you know, if you, you're not going to, you know, you're not, you're not helping yourself by washing your hands a hundred times in a row, right?

Like in order to try to keep yourself from sick or from being sick or something like that, like this is not realistically connected to, you know, the problem you're trying to fix or is excessive in that way.

And it's just like, you have to think on what's true in this moment. And a lot of what's happening is, it's just your normal, like, it's either your normal, like anxiety fighting kind of mechanism being applied to this bizarre behavior, like you're thinking on what's true, right?

In that way. Or, you know, it's just, you do have to fight that fundamental legalistic works, right? Just in this kind of system where a person can latch onto these superstitious rituals in an attempt to fix their fundamental guilt problem.

And that's why, I mean, God gives us, you know, Jesus died on the cross to forgive us of our sins and declare us not guilty. And we can, you know, we can be like the wicked flea when no one pursues, but the righteous of all just lying, you know, to live as Christ, to die as Cain.

And all these things are just fundamentally Christian answers to keep them from, that keep them stable in the Christian life. And there's nothing that's like more unstable, unstable than, you know, being defined by OCD.

Closing Remarks and Podcast Sign-Off

Okay. Fair enough.

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