The Sovereignty of God and the States

I would say if the authorities didn't want us involved in the public square, they ought not to have crucified Jesus in the public square. Use humanistic principles.

Well, I would say the same idea. I would say that. I would say what's the problem with stardust. Bumping into stardust?

In the cosmic picture, none. There's no problem. In the cosmic picture, it won't matter. No, Mr. President, you are not protecting reproductive freedom. You are authorizing the destruction of freedom for one million little human beings every year.

I'm sorry, my friends, but I am tired of seeing Jesus presented as a weak beggar. He is a powerful savior, and the gospel is not a suggestion. It is a command.

Reverend Holder, don't you sympathize with that?

I sympathize with every single human heart wishing to know the one true and living God, but I believe there's only one way that that can happen through Jesus Christ, and the gospel is about repenting of sin, not celebrating it.

Behold my servant whom I uphold, my chosen in whom my soul delights. I have put my spirit upon him. He will bring forth justice to the nations. He will not cry aloud or lift up his voice or make it heard in the street.

A bruised reed he will not break, and a faintly burning wick he will not quench. He will faithfully bring forth justice. He will not grow faint or be discouraged till he has established justice in the earth and the coastlands wait for his law.

The Opening of the Show and the Gospel of the Kingdom

I love that verse. I love it, love it, love it. Hey guys, what's up? I'm Jeff. Jeff Durbin, the Karma Ninja. This is the Gospel Heard Around the World. You're listening to Apologia Radio. That's Luke the Bear.

What up?

That's Joy the Girl.

Hello.

Yeah. Let's just hang here for a minute. You like that?

I do like that.

That's my royalty-free, chill, jazzy, lo-fi hip-hop jazz.

That is a lot of combinations of music.

That's right, that's right. You have to do that, otherwise you get struck down. Actually, a very difficult time for those of us who are in ministry and using these platforms right now. You should know that it's becoming harder and harder and harder for us to actually get this content to you because all the platforms, the major platforms, YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, all those platforms are actually working collectively to shut down Christian voices and conservative voices.

So every, say, six months or so, we'll have our content seen by a lot of people and the word is getting out. Gospel coming into conflict with all kinds of areas of life. And then all of a sudden, our videos we see, we can't get anyone to see them.

And that's because something else switches, new algorithms, something where they're basically looking for words that conservatives and Christians use. And they're shutting down those videos, making sure ultimately it doesn't get seen far and wide.

So with that, be in prayer for that. And that's also an invitation for you guys to help us to get the word out about all of these important gospel-related issues, which is everything, by clicking all the buttons, all the likes and shares and all those things.

Let's work together to make it happen, guys. So if you're wondering why my voice sounds the way that it does, it's because I'm teaching martial arts to my family and to Zach, actually. Zach, Pastor Zach has been coming over.

So I've been screaming a lot at our other fellow pastor.

You're also older now.

Yes, I'm a little older today. I'm only 32. So happy birthday to me.

No.

I agree with that.

Yeah.

41 years old.

Praise God.

Sounds right to me.

I made 41 years on this planet, which is excellent.

Yeah.

Congratulations.

And you're still teaching karate.

And I'm still teaching karate.

It's just now you don't have a voice.

That's right. That's what happens when I get old. I'll get it back. I was used to screaming every day like that. Now I'll get it back. So hey, important show for everyone today. Actually, very important show today.

We are doing a discussion about the sovereignty of God, the word of God. We're going to talk about history a bit, and we're going to talk about state sovereignty. And we're going to do it with one of our favorite people in this area.

His name is Dan Fisher. He's the former candidate for governor in Oklahoma. Oklahoma, y 'all. We were just in Oklahoma. And lots of very important things happening in Oklahoma right now. If you don't know, after this episode, go check out this channel right here, Apologia Studios, and just look through our past videos, and you'll see some important things that we need you to join with us in.

Right now in Oklahoma, you have Senator Joseph Silk. He's presented SB13. It's a bill that would criminalize and abolish completely abortion in the state of Oklahoma. And it's being stopped by, you would say, the pro-choice movement.

And we would say to that, well, they're trying. But it's actually being halted and stalled by the pro-lifers in Oklahoma. And Dan Fisher knows a lot about that. This was a main area of focus for him in his campaign was to end and to abolish abortion in the state of Oklahoma.

So please partner with us in this ministry. Partner with Dan Fisher and all the believers there that are working hard to bring justice for these fatherless children in Oklahoma. Make sure you guys partner with us.

Get in on this. Joseph Silk needs your prayers. And the movement there, Russell Hunter, all those guys that are involved there, they need our participation and our support. So why don't you, Pastor Luke, why don't you introduce Dan a bit for us?

Before we do that, I want to say in regards to— Whoa, that was a jolt. We posted this picture the other day of Tony Lounger, our buddy, sitting with the pro-choice Planned Parenthood supporters against SB 13, which was completely mind-blowing.

Just so a lot of people know, Tony Lounger is the—.

Vice President of the National Right to Life.

Check that out. Vice President for National Right to Life, sitting next to Planned Parenthood supporters. You might say, well, there's probably no limited seating. Well, okay, I'll grant that. But he's sitting next to Planned Parenthood supporters in opposition like them to SB 13, the bill that would end and criminalize and abolish, completely do away with abortion in the state of Oklahoma.

And that shows you the state of the pro-life movement. It is not Christian. It is not standing on biblical principles. And we need to recognize that as the church of the living God. And we need to firm up our commitments to the gospel itself.

Pastor Luke, sorry.

No, that's fine. Yeah. So yeah, I got to spend time with Dan back in December for a day or two and got to hear his take on state sovereignty, which we're going to talk about today. And it was phenomenal.

So I've been trying to get him on ever since. And you just spent time with him in Oklahoma, what, two weeks ago?

Yeah, two weeks ago.

So yeah. So Dan's a pastor as well. And like Jeff said, ran for governor this last year in Oklahoma. And so, Dan, why don't you tell us what you're up to now and maybe fill us in on an update of what's going on with SB 13.

Abortion, the Pro-Life Movement, and the Call to Abolish It

Welcome, Dan.

Oh, thank you guys so much for having me. I've been looking forward to being with you. So the work that you guys do is incredible. So it's a pleasure to be with you.

Thank you, brother.

Well, you know, my thing is, you guys know some of my story. I came to Christ at a very early age and felt called to preach at the age of 10 and preached my first sermon when I was 16. So I've been preaching ever since.

I'm 59 now. So that's what, 43 years. And I've been full time in the ministry since I was 22.

Oh, wow.

So, yeah, so a whole lifetime. In the midst of all of that, I've also been politically engaged and served a couple of terms in the Oklahoma legislature while I was pastoring a church of around 1 ,000 folks.

So it's a good-sized church and spending lots of plates. And then when I willingly walked away, I was going to run for my third term unopposed. And I tell people even I could win that race. I decided that I was just ramming my head against a brick wall, that I would surely I could do more good in just pastoring and doing my black regiment presentation that we may get into a little bit later and just being an activist.

And so that's what I've been doing. Now, while I was in the legislature, I did have, I don't know, kind of an epiphany of sorts. Maybe you guys can relate to this. I've been a pro-lifer all of my life.

I was involved in the pro-life movement way back in the early 80s when Jerry Falwell and the moral majority were just getting going. And, you know, in those days, we all either innocently, ignorantly, sincerely believed that what the pro-life movement was going to be about was just bringing an end to abortion.

And I don't know what happened. I don't know if the movement was hijacked. I don't know what happened. But somewhere along the way, it became more about just regulating an evil practice and was somehow co-opted by people like the Tony Lowengers of the world.

Right.

And so I am now calling for the immediate, complete end of abortion. No regulations. And so that's what I'm doing not only through my church here in Edmond, Oklahoma, which is just north of Oklahoma City.

But as you guys know, when you were here two weeks ago, we did a rally trying to gin up support for SB 13. And so I'm doing everything that I can do to help get Christians because, unfortunately, the pastors are the bottleneck.

The pulpit is the bottleneck in the church, in my opinion. And the pastors don't address these issues, and they won't lead their people to get engaged. So we're trying to kind of bypass the pastors and go directly to the people because I'm finding that if you get to the rank-and-file Christian in the pew, they still think that the pro-life movement is about ending abortion.

They don't realize that it's all about fighting efforts to end abortion, as you've been talking about. So that's what I'm doing. I'm still traveling around doing all kinds of presentations. And, of course, we do the Bringing Back the Black Robe Regiment thing, which I'm about to travel to Wisconsin next week and do.

And then I think I'm going to end it up by speaking in Matt Trualla's church that Sunday morning. So to kind of give you an idea of what I'm doing.

Good.

So that would actually help us. Are you still there, Dan?

Oh, yeah, I'm here.

That would actually help us if we have this audience watching right now. And if people watch this later, this is an interesting perspective in terms of what people are accustomed to now. I mean, for example, and don't freak out about this, guys who are watching live.

Right now, we're in Arizona. We have constitutional carry. And you should know that Pastor Luke and I are always carrying. There's that trigger discipline right there. So I'm carrying on with me right now this gun for self-defense, for protection.

And we have that right in the United States of America. And I can walk around in Arizona with constitutional carry. It's on my side. And people do all the time in Arizona. You can also carry it concealed in Arizona without a permit.

We have the Second Amendment. And we thank God for those rights. Many of us do thank God for those rights, biblically-based rights. There's a historical pedigree back to that right. And there's a context in which we got these rights.

And it wasn't atheistic. It was the Christian worldview that was in the atmosphere. It was people appealing to the law of God and, say, biblical standards of righteousness and justice in the world. But Dan mentioned something, and I want you all to hear about, and I want Dan to explain it to us.

He mentioned the Black Robe Regiment. And that's something that we know about, and we want you to know about. And you ought to know about it, because it's how you got the place that you're staying today.

And the rights that are hanging on by a thread now, those good rights in America, those biblically-based rights, were given to us by these very courageous men who wore these black robes. So, Brother Dan, can you tell us about the Black Robe Regiment?

Oh, I'd be happy to. You know, there were pastors really from much earlier than when the black robe shows up, in the mid -1700s, even before that, who understood the proper order of sovereignty. And they understood that God is sovereign over men, and over governments, and over everything else, and that our rights ultimately come from God.

And so they're inherent in the people, and then the people can choose to form governments to help protect those rights. Today, we kind of have it upside down, and we see, or many people believe, that the government grants us certain rights and certain liberties.

But our founders saw it the exact opposite way, and then the framers come along in the mid -1700s, and they began to codify this. And so you have these pastors who understand that rights come from God, and that anything short of honoring God will lead to disaster, culturally, socially, you name it.

So these guys were preaching these principles, not necessarily being political, because they didn't see things as secular and sacred. They saw everything to the Christian as sacred.

Right.

I mean, everything comes from God. He's the source of all good things. And they believe that government was God's idea, that our rights come from Him. So they're preaching these things from their pulpits while Great Britain is kind of tightening its stranglehold around the throats of the colonies.

And they keep petitioning the king and parliament, and as you know, history shows us that they just kept turning up the heat instead. Until finally, of course, the colonies believed that they only had one recourse, and that was declare their independence to protect their rights and liberties.

And for many of them, it was the gospel. And so these preachers were preaching things that today would be considered completely radical and, quote, you know, violating the principle of separation of church and state, even though they would laugh at something like that today and scratch their heads and say, what in the world is that?

But of course, we've been fed the myth and the lie and the lie of bull, and so we all believe it's written somewhere in Scripture or somewhere in the founding documents, and it isn't. So these guys freely mix these things because they believe that good government was from God, and all these principles, you name it, whether, Jeff, like you were talking about the right to defend oneself or the right to property or the right to free expression, they would preach about these things even before the Declaration of Independence had been penned.

But once, of course, that happens in 1776, you know, pretty much the line is drawn. They mostly believed that they were all signing their death warrants. When Ben Franklin says that we either hang together or we'll hang separately, we laugh at that today.

We think it's kind of a joke. He wasn't joking, that they literally thought that they were going to be hunted down by the British and executed, if not imprisoned. And so these preachers began to become very engaged and very active, and so they started leading the men of their congregations and their communities off to fight at particular battles, and some of these men became part of the regular army.

Guys like Peter Muhlenberg became part of General Washington's staff and was promoted all the way up to major general. All of these guys were putting, as the old saying goes, their money where their mouths were, because they knew if they didn't defend liberty, the gospel would be driven underground.

They knew that. In my book that I've written where I talk about these guys, I have quotes from some of their letters back home, and these pastors are telling their families that if this effort fails, no doubt we're going to be executed.

They knew what was at stake, and they were willing to pay the cost. So the British, knowing what was going on, that the preachers were the ones fanning the flames, for instance, to give you an example of how they were fanning the flames, John Witherspoon, who was the famous Presbyterian, but he was also the president of Princeton, but he was a part of the delegation that wrote the Declaration of Independence.

Everybody's getting weak-kneed about actually voting to declare their independence, and he gets up and gives this impassioned speech, and the delegates all there say, okay, you're right, man, and so they vote to declare their independence, and then consequently they sign the Declaration of Independence.

So these guys were really leading out, and the British so hated them that they called them the Black Regiment. Now today I call them the Black Robed Regiment, so people will understand that we're not talking about some kind of racist deal.

We're talking about guys that wore black robes because all of the denominations, it didn't matter whether you were Baptist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, all the preachers wore black robes in those days. So the British called them the Black Regiment, referring to the black robes, and they considered them really kind of public enemy number one, and so I go around doing this presentation, kind of like a one-man Broadway production in costume, and I become some of these characters, and I bring this history to light, and I think, Jeff, it was you who was saying that had it not been for these guys, I'm convinced there would have probably not been a war of independence, and we wouldn't know the liberties that we know today.

I mean, it's just that simple.

Absolutely. I've even heard, Dan, I've heard that in England they were referring to, at some point they were referring to the war as the Presbyterian Revolt.

Oh, yeah, the Presbyterian Rebellion. In fact, King George called it that.

That's right. Isn't that amazing now, friends? Think about it now. How did this country begin? It wasn't in any way a Christian nation, right? No, the Christian world was in the atmosphere. It was just understood.

I think it was like 9 out of 13 of the colonies had state churches, and that did cause some problems here and there, but the point is, and we're not saying there was a utopia or perfection, but it was the Christian worldview that developed all of these rights and these points of contact with justice in the world and righteousness.

It was the Christian church specifically that fought for these rights.

Well, it was.

Yeah, and that's very different, Dan, than we have today.

Oh, my gosh.

You've experienced this. Oftentimes, as a pastor, when you approach these issues, as a pastor today, you have resistance from other pastors who are saying, no, no, no, we just need to preach the gospel and get people to heaven one day.

You don't need to be concerned with all this little stuff down here.

Yeah, and isn't that convenient for them now that our liberties have been won by generations that preceded us that paid the price in tears, sweat, and blood in their lives?

Right.

So it's really convenient in this modern era. Well, you know, we're just going to focus on the gospel. And, of course, what they do, and I would imagine you guys agree with this, the gospel to them is just limited to a person being born again and then dying and going to heaven.

Right.

But the gospel has to do with sanctifying us while we're here and making us a reflection of heaven on earth.

Yes.

And they're not teaching that to people. And so the folks are really, I mean, it's not an excuse, but they're uninformed. They do not know this history. In fact, you were talking about calling it the Presbyterian Rebellion.

The son of the British Prime Minister, Horace Walpole, told Parliament that America had eloped with a Presbyterian parson. I mean, that's how strongly they believe this. And the deal is when the recruiters for the Continental Army would come into a town or a village in the colonies, rather than try to recruit soldiers, they'd go get a black robe preacher because he was far more effective at recruiting soldiers than the army recruiters were.

I love it.

So, yeah, we've lost this history, and it was the pulpit. And, of course, Alec de Tocqueville, later on, when he comes to try to figure out the genius of America, he says, I couldn't understand it. I couldn't figure it out until I saw the pulpits aflame with the fire of righteousness.

And then I understood. And, Jeff, you're right. I mean, we don't need to over-Christianize the colonies. Not everybody was born again. Not all of the framers were born again Bible-thumping Christians.

But they all had a general respect for the God of the Bible. And even when Jefferson writes the Declaration, you know, he says, everything is based upon the laws of nature and nature's God. He understood that there was a sovereignness to God, the Creator, and that we better abide by His law from which we can derive laws to have a civil society.

Yeah, I think we would be lost, Dan. I say this often. When I was in Oklahoma and Russell asked me to come out and preach, he asked me to preach on gospel and justice. One of the things that I tried to emphasize there is that we've lost this perspective that Jesus was preaching.

And like I said at the talk, I'm not asking you to go very far in your studies here. Just read the first four chapters of Matthew. And you'll see that when Jesus proclaims, He's proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, the good news of the kingdom.

Now we've lost that perspective of this is the Messiah's rule in the world. He has all authority in heaven and on earth here today. And so it's a jolt oftentimes in our current generation to see pastors like yourself or myself or Pastor Luke saying the things that we're saying even at the legislature.

I can remember, Dan, recently we were going. We've tried to start a movement of believers going to their local legislature and demanding justice for the pre-born and calling them to repent and turn to faith in Christ.

And Dan, I'll tell you what, brother. I saw a local pastor. A local pastor, he saw some of that content coming out, and he was horrified underneath it. He was putting things like, this is awful. Don't do this.

You shouldn't be doing this sort of a thing. For Christian pastors to be going to their local magistrates and demanding that they actually obey God and that they repent of these injustices, modern pastors are saying things like, that's not what this is about, boys.

We just need to get people saved.

Well, it's completely ridiculous. In fact, some of the greatest resistance that we get is from so-called Christians and especially Christian leaders like pastors. See, they don't know, for instance, that when Paul Revere makes his famous midnight ride yelling, you know, the regulars are coming, the regulars are out, he rides in Lexington directly to a pastor's house, a guy by the name of Jonas Clark, who had Samuel Adams and John Hancock staying with him that night.

And John Hancock's grandfather had pastored that church in Lexington years before. And Revere is riding to Pastor Clark's house to see if the minutemen that Clark has been helping to oversee and train are ready to take a stand against the British who are headed by land to Lexington and then to Concord.

And that next morning when we have the great battle at Lexington on Lexington Green, it actually happens in what we had called the churchyard of Jonas Clark's church. And most of those Lexington minutemen were members of Clark's church.

Right, right.

That's insane.

See, we don't know that stuff anymore. And so these pastors have completely disconnected our responsibility to stand for justice with preaching the gospel. And so now people no longer make that connection.

So it's so hard to get people, for instance, to come to the Capitol because they think, well, that's not spiritual. And they don't realize that's about as spiritual as you can get.

And it's a good story, too, because if you think about it, he knew a fight was coming. And so he went to the place where he thought there was beer and life insurance.

Oh, that's great. That's hilarious.

You're welcome.

I just read an article last night. Actually, I sent it to you. I don't know if you saw it from our friend Andrew Sandlin. I think it's called Make Christianity Great Again or something like that. But in regards to what we're talking about, he's talking specifically about these pastors and Christians that have shied away from the culture.

He says, this is the pious goop of spineless religion. The appeasement reinforces the cultural irrelevance of Christianity and has become the unintentional ally of secularists and pagans. The spineless goo, pious spineless goo.

That's exactly right. And so now it's no wonder why you can't get the church angry. It ought to be just natural. But you can't get the church angry about the murder of the unborn because they figure that's not their job.

Yeah, exactly.

That's right.

Somebody else is supposed to be doing that. And had the 18th century church thought that way in the colonies, well, our history would read very differently.

Yes, it would.

Yes, it would. Well, Dan, that brings me to actually a good point. So you were in Oklahoma and you had a very peculiar platform in terms of you were approaching the entire legislature and the legislative process and everything you were doing there.

Your message was distinctively Christian.

Yes.

And you were not playing neutral in that. You were approaching that as a Christian standing on the law word of God and you were demanding justice and you weren't wavering in terms of actually standing on two different platforms.

Like, well, I'm a Christian over here in this life. But in the legislature, I'm not going to be so Christian and uphold the same presuppositions. Now, can you talk to us about that? Because that's, I think, amazing and it needs to be done.

And I pray for more. And I wish you had won. But I want to know about that whole issue of neutrality in the legislature. How come you approached it in that way? How come you were talking about abortion in the way that you were without wavering and without the typical line of the pro-life movement?

Why? Yeah.

Well, I think it goes back, of course, to all of my study and training in Scripture to begin with. And then the two terms when I did serve in the legislature, I just made up my mind, I'm going to be a witness for Christ here.

And not like the generic witness for Christ that the typical so-called pro-life Christian legislator is. In fact, I was able to make a strong enough stand that many of the people called me the conscience of the House because I was in the House of Representatives.

So whenever I chose not to run for a third term thinking that I could make a difference, a better difference somewhere else and then was approached about running for governor, that was not on my bucket list.

It was not something I wanted to do. In fact, my wife and I had to spend a lot of weeks praying and talking through that whole thing. But we decided that if we were going to do it, we were going to do it 100%, everything that we believed based in Scripture.

And so I'm convinced that abortion is our Nazi holocaust of our era. In fact, it's worse than the Nazi holocaust. You can't hardly even compare it to slavery in the 19th century because even though slavery is terrible, abortion, the murder of the unborn is worse.

And the record of our killing is well over 60 million now in 46 years. So I'm thinking, okay, well, that is the worst crime that we've committed. And then secondly, how are we going to end this? Well, we can only do it if some state or a group of states stand up and say, no, the federal government is outside of its authority.

It was in 1973. It has been many other times, for example, Dred Scott decision. And it is time for a state that has the courage to do it to stand up and say no. No, we're no longer going to allow you to be the bully in the playground and everybody gives over their lunch money because you say so.

We're tired of running from Scott Farkas, if you know who he is in the movie Christmas Story. And we're going to kind of become Ralphie here in a righteous kind of way. And that's what we did.

Oh, that's great.

Of course, times are dark enough and bad enough, right now anyway, that it calls for uncompromising vision and commitment. And so that's why we did it because we believe that if we continue on the course that we're on, not only will we continue to murder thousands and millions of preborn humans who bear God's image, but we're going to lose everything else too.

In my opinion, the only way short of God doing something that's just, you know, supernatural that none of us can explain or whatever. And if God wants to bring a great awakening, well, man, I'm the first in line for that.

But short of that, state sovereignty has got to be relearned and then be re-exerted by some of the states because Washington is not going to fix this stuff. I know the people who are there, and they're not.

So that's why we ran the race that we ran here in Oklahoma, because we believed if any state could or would, it's a state of a little less than four million who one third of those claim to be evangelical Christian.

Dred Scott, State Sovereignty, and the Duty to Interpose

Yeah.

But, Dan, this will help us here because this gets us into, and I want, of course, you guys to please jump in here after this, but this is a good question, I think, that may help people who are listening right now that are saying, hey, guys, I think you're right, so what does this look like?

And this will get us to the issue of the states interposing and resisting the tyranny of a higher court or a federal beast in some instance. So you mentioned Dred Scott, and this will give us a little bit of a historical background.

So for those that don't know about Dred Scott, can you explain that to us, Dan, so we have a good historical perspective, and then get us into the discussion of like the states actually do have the sovereignty to resist the tyranny of a higher court.

Yeah, well, in 1857, the U .S. Supreme Court rules in their infinite wisdom that black people are not people, they're property. And so you can treat blacks like cattle. I mean, they're just property.

Right.

And, first of all, they didn't have the authority to do that, obviously, because the Declaration of Independence that precedes the U .S. Constitution, therefore, I believe, is our birth certificate and superior to the Constitution.

The Constitution is just a way to govern according to the principles laid down in the birth certificate, which is the Declaration, which is why I focus more on the Declaration of Independence even than I do the Constitution, declares all men created equal in the image of God, you know, given by our creator.

Well, why would that all of a sudden exclude people with black skin? Well, obviously, it wouldn't. So this was the blatant wickedness of the Supreme Court, and it was the job of the people to say, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait just a minute here.

Our form of government is representative, not monarchical. We don't have a monarch, even if it's made up of a handful of judges as an oligarchy, and government only governs at the consent of the people based upon the laws of nature and nature's God.

And so it was the job of the people to rise up and say, no, you don't have that authority. In fact, the author of the Constitution, James Madison, said that when the federal government overreaches its authority given to it in what we would call the U .S. Constitution, it's not only the right, it's the duty of the states to interpose and stop, and here's what he called it, the evil.

Nice.

Yeah, so when the federal government oversteps its authority, which it did long ago.

Yeah.

We're way beyond that point now. It's our job that what they're doing is evil, and it's our job to stop it, which, by the way, then comes into line with Paul's definition and description of proper government in verse 14.

Yep.

That the proper role of government is to do what is good, protect those who do good, and punish those who do evil.

Yep.

Now government's doing the exact opposite. It's persecuting those who do good, like you were talking about, platforms constantly being changed, even though it's, quote, not directly the government doing it.

They're trying to prevent you from teaching the truth, but then they'll do everything they can to promote any kind of perversion, and anybody who's willing to spew it, they'll give them a wide, tall platform for that.

So our government now is doing the exact opposite of what Paul said it's supposed to do in Romans 13. Therefore, according to the preachers of the War of Independence in the 18th century, we have no obligation to submit but to actually oppose them because they're doing the opposite of what the Bible says government's supposed to do.