9/11, Accreditation, Social Justice, Jemar Tisby

Greetings and welcome to The Dividing Line. It is a Tuesday, September 11th, 2018. And, you know, I was literally less than a hundred meters, um, from where I sit right now on September 11th. Uh, Michael Fallon had woken me up and, uh, called me from, uh, Florida.

Of course, there are three hours ahead of us, uh, to let me know what was happening. Uh, that day at the World Trade Center and, and other places. So I turned on the television, began watching and, um, uh, went and got my kids up and said, you need to, you need to be watching this.

And, um, uh, eventually we had to get cleaned up. It was the first day of school. And, uh, it was the one year that I taught at a Christian high school. Um, and so it was first day of class. And I remember walking into that class and telling those students, um, your lives and your futures, uh, change today in ways that, uh, you have no way of knowing.

And it's interesting, uh, at least one of those young people in that class, um, with whom I butted heads more than once, um, eventually ended up in the United States Marines as a bomb disposal expert and numerous tours overseas, uh, which probably would not have happened, uh, were it not for, uh, 9 -11.

And, uh, I heard something that stunned me, uh, just a little while ago on, uh, television while the reporters talking about it said that a quarter of Americans alive today were not alive, were not old enough or either alive or old enough to know what was going on.

So you basically your 20 year olds and below, um, when 9 -11 took place, a quarter. Wow. Um, I cannot imagine what it would be like for 9 -11 to have been something before your knowledge of it. You know, it was a completely, certainly in the travel industry, it was a completely different world.

Um, traveling there, believe it or not, there was a time when travel was fun and, uh, and people smiled and, uh, um, you know, before 9 -11, for example, uh, people could, uh, meet you at the gate. There were a couple of times when my wife brought the kids, uh, to meet me when I was coming back from a trip.

And right there is get off the plane right there at the gate. Uh, they'd meet you and you'd frequently had to dodge through all the people that had stopped and meeting loved ones and stuff like that. Now that happens outside security.

Uh, you know, so it still happens, just happens someplace else. And, uh, yeah. Uh, and of course that TSA line and all that wonderful, fun stuff we get to do today. Yeah. You didn't, uh, you didn't do, uh, back in the, uh, seventies and eighties and nineties and so on and so forth.

Yeah. A lot of stuff has, uh, a lot of stuff has changed, but, um, it's amazing to think of how many people today do not, uh, remember that, uh, that amazing morning. And then of course, watching, um, the towers, uh, collapse and something else.

Um, time, uh, I, I wonder what is being planned for the 20th anniversary. Uh, when that, uh, when that comes up, that'll probably be fairly, uh, fairly big. Uh, but, um, you know, flight 93 and everything that happened with that.

Fascinating stuff. But, uh, every year you think back on it and then we, and we move on. Um, and, um, uh, my daughter mentioned, uh, being woken up that morning. I was 12. My dad woke me up and said, you need to come see what's happening.

And, uh, so it's interesting what they remember from, uh, from that far, that far back. But, um, yeah, uh, fascinating stuff. Fascinating stuff. By the way, um, uh, Summer and Joy, uh, had Tom Askell on their program.

So this week's Sheologians broadcast, um, they're interviewing Tom Askell about the statement on, um, social justice and the gospel. I, I, I'll mention this a little bit later, but I was listening this morning to Jamar Tisby and his crew, um, talking about the statement.

And, uh, it just, it's an illustration of how far apart the two sides are that, um, there was a lengthy discussion of the title and the fact that it's the statement rather than a statement. Um, so if, since it's the statement, that's an exercise of power and oppression rather than a statement.

I, I, uh, who knew? Um, who knew? Um, don't even know how to respond to something like that. Has it obviously has nothing to do with power at all, but if that's all you think about, that's the only categories you have to look at the world and everything's power and oppression and all the rest of that stuff, then I guess you see it everywhere.

You just see it everywhere, whether it's there or not, you see it. And that's, uh, that's the problem. I just don't even know how to deal with, with, um, with that. But, um, anyway, uh, on, uh, on other issues, um, there is an article that, uh, Bob Gagnon referred to, um, talking about, uh, Donald Sweeting, president of the 8 ,000 student Colorado Christian University, uh, spoke during a public hearing for the negotiated rulemaking committee of the U .S. Department of Education on Thursday to comment on changes that could negatively impact religious freedom.

I have been saying for a, an extended time that the issue of accreditation will be the issue that is utilized to end specifically faithful Christian education in the West and specifically United States.

It's not a big deal in Europe because they've dealt with it in other ways, um, doing the same thing. But, um, fundamentally, if, uh, and this is, I say this to every, every university, every seminary, uh, if you take government money, Caesar will tell you what you can and cannot teach.

And it's just a matter of election cycles until we have, um, these same bureaucrats absolutely demanding that every Christian education, uh, uh, institution of education, um, join in, not, not tolerate, uh, not just put up with, but join in the celebration of the immoral revolution.

So homosexuality and transgenderism and, and the profaning of marriage and, and, uh, it'll just keep going from there because there, there's no stopping point on this slope. It's just, it just goes all the way down.

Um, that is going to be used. And so if, you know, so many of these schools are absolutely dependent upon Pell Grants, uh, uh, upon the government handout. And, um, there are a couple schools already that have said, no, I'm not going to do it.

They see it coming. They're smart. They've already, um, fixed things, made things so that, uh, their students got to find other ways to pay their bills rather than, uh, seizures money. Um, but that doesn't change the accreditation issues in the sense of, um, utilizing that baseball bat, uh, to beat people over the head.

And, um, so evidently this article is, is about, uh, fundamentally changing the language that so, so as to allow for the insistence upon LGBTQ compliance with the current societal advancement in the immoral revolution and religious schools and so on, so forth, doesn't matter.

You have to bow the knee to Caesar and Caesar says thou shalt celebrate people who are confused sexually, uh, and act upon those, those confusions. Uh, it's common. I look it up. It's, uh, it's there.

What can I, um, what can I say? Um, let me see here. Uh, just looking at how I want to approach this. Could I say something about two sort of off topic things that just have been bugging me like anything?

Um, one just may be a, a age thing, but I'm old enough to remember the queen of women's tennis, Chrissy Everett. Remember Chrissy Everett? Chrissy Everett was a cute little thing, but she, she looked like, um, she looked like princess Diana a little bit, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. Um, very classy lady, always classy in victory or defeat, either one very talented and such a contrast to John McEnroe. Uh, I think they're active. I think she was a little bit before McEnroe, but I think there was a, there was crossover time.

Yeah. I think he was a little bit after, after she had retired too, but, and he's still playing. I mean, he's playing the senior circuit. Now he's, he's just, he's going to die with Iraq in his hand. Um, but when, when, when I think of her Wimbledon wins and U S open wins and stuff like that different world, what happened this past weekend?

I don't know if you saw the debacle at the U S open. It just really bugged me. It really, to me said a lot well about fans in New York, but, but more so the USTA, the whole nine yards, what was done, um, to the young lady who is the U S open champion.

I think she's all of 21 years old, Naomi Osaka. I think I don't have it in front of me, but, uh, who had beaten Serena Williams earlier in the year. So this is the second time she's defeated her between the outrageous behavior on the court by Serena Williams.

And then the, the treatment by the fans and even the USTA officials of the champion. She's crying when she receives her trophy, she's having to apologize for having beaten the one that was supposed to win.

It was just stunning. Um, something like that could never have happened. Um, only a matter of a few decades ago, it, it just, it would have been a scandal on, on an unbelievable level. And yet now we have people actually talking about women's rights and racism and everything else in regard.

Have you noticed that Naomi Osaka is not Anglo? I mean, the whole paradigm just falls apart here. You have one minority beating another by minority. It has nothing to do with any of that stuff. And it had, and it, it was a girl to beat the girl, the woman to beat the woman.

I mean, the whole thing is just so insane and so disgusting. I just, I wish there was some way that the entire nation as a whole could send a huge apology card to Naomi Osaka and say, we are so sorry for the jerks that were booing you for having won.

I mean, some of us actually know what sportsmanship is and evidently those people who can afford those tickets, um, didn't get that memo. I was just, it was, um, unbelievable. Absolutely. Unbelievable.

Um, so, uh, there was, there was that. And then sort of similar to that, I had some back and forth, some people in social media today about the Nike thing. Now look, the, the, the main comment that I have made, uh, well, I retweeted somebody else and then I got jumped on for having retweeted that.

But, um, the problem from a Christian worldview analysis perspective, uh, to utilize someone else's language, uh, with the Nike ad was, as I put in Twitter yesterday, uh, modern decrepit Western society believe something biblical perspective, Christian worldview perspective, and what used to be Western societal perspective, believe the truth.

It is your duty as the creature of God. Those are two very different things. And all the memes that people have been cranking out, just mocking the philosophical, theological worldview collapse of that ad campaign.

Many of them have been quite, quite humorous. Um, easy. It's easy to mock that kind of, that kind of language because it's just, it doesn't make any sense. Believe something. Hey, become a flat earther while you're at it.

Hey, Hey, just, Hey, just sacrifice everything for it. Yeah. That's, that's, that's brilliant. You could, uh, you could put people from the Jim Jones cult there and, uh, you could put the folks from Waco there.

That's what you ought to do. You got to get a picture of Waco burning, believe something and be willing to sacrifice everything for it. But there you go. There's, Oh yeah. Fred Phelps, whatever. It's just, it's pure insanity.

Um, it is a postmodern ridiculous, uh, empty statement, and that should be what bothers everybody. Now I got into, I got dragged into arguing about where Kaepernick was in his, in his, uh, career, you know, and that anybody can argue, uh, one way or the other on that.

I'm sorry. But when you talk about people who've sacrificed everything, he does, that is not first for his comes to mind. Um, well, he sacrificed his career. Well, I don't, I don't really know that that's the case, but, um, could I, could I get the interest on his current, uh, net worth?

I'd be doing real well just with the, uh, with the interest, uh, on his, his net worth. Um, I don't, I don't get it. I don't, I don't follow it, but there you go. Um, if I could direct your attention to two articles, um, that have been written, then I'm going to address a really controversial biblical, uh, a couple of biblical texts just to make you feel very, very uncomfortable.

Um, and we'll go from there. Um, someone that you are not allowed to read and admit that you read, uh, by name of Douglas Wilson, uh, well, what had happened was an article appeared while I was in, um, Florida.

And I also need to report on the Florida trip. So I need to, I'll talk about these two articles. Then I'll talk about Florida. Then we'll do the biblical thing. And then I'll see where we are from there.

Um, while I was in Florida, uh, Joel McDermott posted a rambling thing about the statement and I'll be perfectly honest with you. Some of you say, no, you shouldn't say that. I'm just gonna be straight up in front of you.

Joel McDermott tries to write like Doug Wilson, but he can't. And the result is you're sitting there going, eh, what, what, what, what? Um, I was thinking about trying to respond to Joel McDermott's article, but I was just sitting there looking at like, I don't even know where to start.

You know, it's, it's sort of like, sometimes you have to, you have to move a, uh, a piece of furniture in your house and you get over to it. And you're like, where do you grab this thing? You know, there's just, there's just no place to grab hold of anything.

It's all just fluff. Um, and it was never designed to be moved. Once it was put in place, just leave it there and never, never been moved again. And so I was very thankful when I saw that, uh, Doug Wilson had decided to respond in his own inimitable fashion.

And it's a very lengthy response as he himself apologizes for. Um, but Doug Wilson is a wordsmith and there are not many wordsmiths around anymore. And to be honest with you, if the educational system in the West doesn't, uh, isn't rescued from its current trajectory, uh, I don't know there's gonna be that many people left who would be able to recognize what a wordsmith is or even appreciate words smithery.

Um, reading is becoming a lost art amongst a large majority of people. And hence you can't appreciate overly well. Um, when you encounter just really well-written stuff, both articles I'm going to refer you to here, uh, Doug Wilson's and, uh, the second are written by, I think wordsmiths people who really, uh, have the ability to use the language.

I can use the language to communicate, uh, and to explain difficult concepts and things like that, but I'm not a wordsmith. I don't have that ability, the turn of phrase, um, that many people do. I'm just too prosaic, I guess.

Um, anyway, uh, Wilson responds to McDermott, not by quoting him a lot, but by weaving a narrative and there was one particular, you know, there'll be entire sentences that, that sort of pop out at you.

Um, and, uh, yeah, well, well, let me just, let's just read you two, two paragraphs. This is a message of grace and nothing but grace. And it leads inexorably and necessarily to moral transformation. Romans six, one through four, all other systems are based on works and depend for their motivation on some form of the lash.

You will never be good enough. You will never be pure enough. And you will always be a misogynistic racist. You exude microaggressions. So I am not talking about trifles, all genuinely Christian, all genuinely Christian.

Social action is grounded on the rock of an absolute declaration of not guilty. Justification, not guilty. Social justice in square and scare quotes in every form I have seen it take drives people before it with a whip.

You are guilty. You toxic male. You are guilty. White boy. You are guilty. You conservative. You are guilty. You grandchild of complacent Republicans. You are guilty. You there with a savings account.

You are guilty. You descendant of slave owners. You are guilty, guilty, guilty. And though you will never be able to fix it, we might be willing in a spirit of benevolence to let you try and then to try again.

Welcome to the squirrel cage run of salvation by works. Um, paragraphs like that just reach out and grab you. This is, his blog's called Mob, Mob, Blog and Mayblog, Theology of Bites Back. And this title was American Vision and the Word That Justifies Dated Yesterday.

If you want to read the entirety of, of the material. Now, uh, also yesterday, a much shorter article, uh, if you only have time to read one, read this one. There is a, um, a young man, uh, who has, I believe his blog's called Slow to Write.

Um, he is named Samuel Say. And, um, as my daughter would say, he's lit. She said on Twitter yesterday that his article was the most lit thing she had read today. And I, you know, as you get older, like me, yeah, rich says it sounds dope.

Um, nothing like, nothing like some guys in their late fifties sitting around trying to figure out how to speak like the, um, younger generation. Um, cause lit dope would have gotten us arrested when we were, when we were in high school.

So, so I, well, not in Colorado now, but when we were young people, even, even in Colorado, lit dope would have gotten you in trouble. So yeah, the whole, the whole thing is, is very difficult for me to, yeah.

Yeah. The language stuff, tough, tough for me to, to handle. But anyway, uh, Summer says that Samuel Say's article is lit. So, and he said that it would make his entire week if I managed to work the word lit, uh, into the dividing line in reference to his article.

So, um, there you go. I'm not sure that he is going to appreciate the lit dope thing, but that's neither here nor there anyway. Um, yeah, yeah. Kofie just said, uh, did James just use the word lit on the dividing line?

The end surely is nigh. Uh, yes, I'm, I'm sure that it is anyway. Um, on the statement on socialjustice .com website under the articles. Uh, for September 10th, Samuel Say has an article called social justice is a threat to human rights in the gospel.

Now, I highly recommend the reading of this article to you for one simple, straightforward reason, 98 .5 of the verbiage being expressed on this subject right now involves equivocation and utilization, numerous violation of categories in proper thought and the utilization of multiple definitions for the same phrases, especially for social justice.

And so the primary thing is people will present a shallow case for a form of biblical justice based upon maybe the application of God's law, uh, sort of like the old Testament prophets or even Deuteronomy 18, uh, where God cast the people out of the land that were there before the Israelites because of their sins.

And those sins are listed there in Deuteronomy chapter 18, um, which includes homosexuality and incest things. And they, they were cast out, they were vomited out of the land, um, because of that, um, those sins, which demonstrate then that those are universal laws.

And so what you do is you, you, you, you get a, uh, a, a surface level, everyone can agree that, uh, the throne, God's throne is founded upon justice and, and God loves justice and he does justice. And it's, it's as if one side is saying that justice is a bad thing, which of course nobody is.

Um, so people trot out a biblical concept when everybody knows that what the document is addressing is not biblical justice. I mean, we affirmed all sorts of categories of biblical justice in the document.

Social justice is not biblical justice on pretty much any level. And if you want to see what the differences are, then, you know, people say, well, you should have defined these things in the statement.

Well, it's funny, as I listened to more and more criticisms over the past, so I've been out for a week, over 7 ,000 signers, uh, already, which is, which is very good for the first week. Uh, some of those statements from like last year and stuff like that have 1 ,300, 1 ,200 signers a year later.

We've got 7 ,000. So obviously, um, it has resonated with a much larger audience. Um, what? Yeah. Yeah. No, don't call it the, uh, cause that's some type of expression of power. Um, anyway, uh, we're, we've been told on the one side, uh, you talked about way too much and the other side didn't talk about enough.

I mean, the criticisms are just, you know, it's real easy if you've never tried to write something like that, um, to criticize people who have until you do it yourself. Um, anyway, um, but you didn't define social justice.

Well, I think we did in the denials. If you, if you look at what is denied in the denials, uh, you'll get a pretty good idea of what social justice is that we're talking about, but even more so, uh, Samuel Say's article does a great job.

Um, let me just read you a little, little portion of it, uh, over, over time, the term social justice became associated with critical theorists and neo-Marxists from the Frankfurt school in Germany. They rejected universal rights or human rights as a basis for justice.

They essentially rejected liberty for individuals as the hallmark for justice in society. They believed instead that parity between groups were the mark of justice in society. Now, see, let me stop right there.

That's nothing you, you ever find in scripture. Um, you do find parity before God in one's spiritual relationship to him, but you do not find economic parity, economic fairness. Yes, but there is no call for the rich to become poor and the poor to become rich and all the rest of that kind of stuff.

It's just not there. Um, they believed instead that parity between groups, the mark of justice in society, they rejected individualism and embraced collectivism. Now, think about it. If a society gives freedom to individuals, there are just some people that are really good at making money.

And then there are other people that are not. And as a result, you're going to have disparity in how much people possess, how much they own. And that is necessary in a society that honors individual freedom, individual effort, labor, gifting, whatever it might be.

What we are hearing, what we're listening to in our society today is a creeping Marxist concept that denies individualism, promotes collectivism, um, and, uh, as a result, pretends pretends to produce equality of result.

Now, as everybody knows, who's read anything, uh, about socialism and communism, it never works out. You always have the elite. You always have people have more than others. They just become the party people, you know, the people that are in control of suppressing everybody else's rights.

Um, but that's the panacea. And our educational system no longer educates people about that. And so you've got a bunch of young people going, that sounds really great. And we're repeating it. Once again, I, I posted a, uh, a cartoon that said, uh, it is very true that those who do not study the past are doomed to repeat it.

But it is equally true that those who do study the past are doomed to sit around and watch everybody else repeat it that doesn't study, uh, history and, uh, helplessly to helplessly sit around while, uh, the past is repeated by those who don't study history.

And it's true. It's just true. Um, so anyway, um, they did not define justice as equality of opportunity. They define justice as equality of outcome. This is the issue. This is the issue. Um, in listening, for example, to, um, the, uh, the witness web, uh, the drop the mic webcast from the witness as I did a run this morning.

So I listened to it on my run. And, uh, you know, one of the things that was said was, well, why is the American evangelical church so white? Um, to which I did not cry out while running, uh, and while breathing hard, but, uh, the thought crossed my mind, um, maybe because the majority of people in America are, or at least certainly have been, um, you know, if the African-American population is like 10%, then would you expect it to be 50

I mean, that doesn't make any sense. Um, when you're in a, when you're in a minority, the majority is going to be the majority. You're going to be the minority. That's sort of obvious, isn't it? I mean, I don't understand what the objection is until you start running everything through these lenses that do not come from scripture.

And that's one of the things we were saying in the article is that while we all have lenses, um, scripture by its very nature and its consistency, if it's handled the right can give us the mechanisms to see those, um, those lenses and to identify them, the traditions and things like that.

I go on. They agreed with Karl Marx that disparities between privileged and underprivileged members of society are indicative of injustice. Not, and I stop again, not that God gives gifts to certain people, not that it is God's will that there be people who are skilled in one area and I'm given certain gifts over here.

The gifts I'm given aren't going to allow me to get $168 million NFL contracts or NBA contracts or MLB or whatever else. Um, do I have a ground for complaining about that? Well, in a neo-Marxist style of thought, yeah.

Um, but not from a Christian worldview. Um, neo-Marxism cuts out all ground of Christian contentment. When you think about how pastorally we seek to inculcate contentment with God's, with our lot in life and the gifts that God has given to us, even in the midst of encouraging people to, to, to use those gifts to the uttermost and to the fullest, that's, that's perfectly right.

I want to honor God in that way. But the reality is that I've known my entire life that there are going to be people, be people who will always have more than me. Okay. That doesn't make me unhappy. I choose not to be unhappy about that.

And that's because God has his ways and wisdom and, and to be honest with you, I don't want to be accountable for as much as somebody else might be accountable for in the final day because you're going to be, you're going to answer for those things.

Anyway, um, they believe privileged members of society and underprivileged members of society make up the oppressor and the oppressed. Therefore, for them, justice, social justice meant eliminating, eliminating disparities between groups in society.

They conclude that justice is when a society implements a system that produces equality of outcome for groups instead of equality of opportunity for individuals. This is why disparities between men and women and disparities between white Americans and black Americans are two of the biggest issues for social justice activists today.

This is why white privilege and male privilege are two of the biggest social justice buzz words today. And it was interesting that, uh, in listening to drop the mic, uh, that one of the statements was about, uh, look at the lack of women.

Um, these men, these brothers are deeply influenced by this kind of thinking, whether they, I don't think they recognize it and they don't seem at all to be willing to listen to anyone pointing it out.

That's for sure. Um, but what you'll get in Samuel's article is a, a brief and yet very clear, um, understanding of what the issues are. As he says, the neo-Marxist and critical theorist understanding of social justice is overwhelmingly the definition for social justice today.

That is how colleges and universities define social justice. That is how my professors describe social justice to me. That is how many dictionaries define social justice. For instance, Google and the Oxford dictionary define social justice as justice in terms of the distribution of wealth, opportunities, and privileges in a society end quote.

So one of the, so in the vast majority of instances, the problem we're experiencing that has been exposed very clearly through the releasing of this statement is that you have a large number of people utilize when, when social justice is discussed within the church, you define it as biblical justice.

But when it's, when application is made in society, in the voting booth, it's social justice as defined within society. And that's why there wasn't a specific definition as in just a single quote, because then everybody's gonna say, oh, that's not what I believe.

Unless you listen really carefully and closely, and then you discover it's at the foundation of everything they believe. Of everything they believe. So if you go to a statement on socialjustice .com, articles, Samuel Say's article, social justice is a threat to human rights in the gospel.

It's lit. It's just, I just, I just wanted to make Samuel happy. Samuel, yeah, that's, that's, that's gonna be a meme, isn't it? Yeah, that's gonna be a meme right there. It's, there's gonna be memes about everything on earth being lit now.

And that's just the way it is. I'm just, I'm counting down the seconds until Kofi's thing appears on Twitter. Saying something, he said it again. Yeah, so anyway. All right, let's step away from that for just a moment.

And let me talk a little bit, I sort of got off track and I was gonna do this toward the beginning, but let me talk a little bit about Florida. What an interesting weekend. I've only, I think I've only been to Jacksonville once before.

And I, I did ask the, the, the pastor of the, of the Switzerland Community Church that was the church that put all this stuff together. You know what, Rich, do you know what the poor brother's name is?

Joseph Smith Jr. I mean, it's Joseph Smith Jr. And, you know, we had a little discussion about name changing things and things like that. But, but, you know, there's, there's a lot of people today that don't know who Joseph Smith Jr. was historically.

So it, maybe it's not that bad. But it just makes polygamy jokes and stuff like that just way, way, way too easily. And golden Bibles and, and stuff like that. But anyhow, the guys there did a, did a great job.

They're a bunch of young guys. I mean, they seem to be around the age of Josh. So I was feeling energized by the time I, I spent with them. Oh, Skyman was, was born there. Well, look at that. Um, now what surprises me a little bit to find out Skyman was born there, um, is I did ask, okay, what, which Jackson is this city named after?

Because there are politically correct Jacksons and politically incorrect Jacksons. And, um, according to Google, uh, Hey Google, uh, it was named after Andrew Jackson. So Andrew Jackson, that's cool. If it was a Thomas Stonewall Jackson, well, I would imagine there would be, um, problems, same name, just, uh, you know, so, uh, anyhow, um, man, is it humid there?

I went out, uh, the first morning I was there and I, um, you know, yeah, it's humid, but you know, so I'm right at sunrise, I'm running and felt pretty good, you know? So I, I went ahead and went a full 5k out and turned around and then it was like, it's like, it hit me.

Oh my goodness. By the time I got back, uh, the humidity, uh, it was like running through soup. It really, really was. It was, um, it was rough. It, it, it, it, it would be hard to live with that kind of humidity.

And we got some real rock and rainstorms while I was there too, but they, they would last for like 35 seconds and then start up again. Two minutes later is a sort of, sort of weird how that, uh, how that worked.

Um, anyway, um, the first night we did an event at Gordon Conwell's, um, campus there in Jacksonville. And it was basically a discussion between Dr. Brown and myself on how we've managed to work together as well as debate each other, uh, over the years and to have such a close friendship with one another, uh, in, uh, in the process.

And I'm a little surprised, uh, I think it's because other stuff's going on right now. Uh, I'm a little surprised there hasn't been, you know, just 47 ,000 nasty articles, um, and videos and everything else, uh, on, uh, on the net, uh, about that particular discussion.

Uh, we got into all sorts of stuff, uh, and, uh, there was a, there was a good group there. They really seemed to enjoy the, uh, the exchange, the give and take, uh, the back and forth. Um, and I think what made it especially useful was if you were there for that discussion, where we talked about a lot of our differences and yet what binds us together in our devotion to Christ and his truth and his gospel, um, we got to flesh out the next night.

Now, some people have said, uh, about the debate, well, that wasn't fair. Uh, it's sort of like, you know, when I debated this one fellow in South Africa, some of the Muslims afterwards, like, that wasn't fair.

Our Muslim, the Muslim guy wasn't able to even compete. Um, you know, why did you pick him, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Well, um, the reality is trying to find meaningful debate partners, opponents on that subject is extremely difficult.

I, when I was first contacted and asked, would you be willing to come do this? I'm like, well, yeah, but I'll be perfectly honest with you. I'm highly skeptical that even if you find some, uh, two people that would say they'd be willing to do this, I think such pressure would be put on them over time that they would, they would withdraw.

I just can't see this happening. And what's interesting is one of the original two people did withdraw just as I predicted and for pretty much the reasons I predicted. And, uh, but Chris Arnton kept pushing on and, and, uh, the, the head, the moderator of the Metropolitan Community Church suggested Ruth, the female debater.

And so I was just thankful that there was any discussion at all because I was of the opinion that there was a very high possibility, even a probability, um, that the whole thing would fall apart and it wouldn't even take place.

So it did. Um, and what was for me anyway, the highlight of that evening was in fact the demonstration that the Trinity debate that took place now, I'm not sure how many years ago, where Michael and I debated two Unitarians, um, Anthony Buzzard and Joseph Good, as I recall their names, um, on the doctrine of the Trinity.

Um, that, that was not a fluke. Now, Michael and I had no, you know, before we did that debate, we had maybe exchanged a few emails. We saw each other in the makeup room beforehand, cause it was a television thing.

So you had to put makeup up. I hate that. Um, but we were gonna be under television lights. So I guess you don't want to look like a corpse. You've got to do that. Um, and, uh, so we, that was the only time we spent together before, uh, the debate.

And yet the, the common comment for years now, as people have viewed that was just couldn't believe how you guys were finishing each other's sentences. And you just, you just work hand in glove. It just, it didn't seem fair.

In fact, during the break, I went out and Summer was in the audience for that, uh, that debate. And, um, she was like, I sort of feel bad for the heretics. I'm like, no, don't, don't feel bad for the heretics.

Um, the same thing happened, uh, in, in the debate on Saturday night, we did purposefully, um, ask to stay seated for the rebuttal period so that we can sort of do a free flow, um, work off of each other, you know, uh, type of a, a response.