July 5, 2023 Show with Astronaut Col. Jeffrey N. Williams on “The Apparent Conflict Between Science and Scripture”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of Founding Father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the Church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is

Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this fifth day of July 2023.

I hope all of you who are listening today had a very safe and happy and joyful and celebratory and Christ -honoring

Independence Day yesterday, and that you had an opportunity to gather with family, friends, and loved ones and declare the gospel of Jesus Christ, who truly has liberated us from the evil one and from our bonds and enslavement to sin and to our curse to hell.

Thanks be to his precious blood and his grace and mercy. Today's program is being dedicated, once again, just as my first interview with my guest today, which was in 2005, the year we first relaunched

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio after relocating from New York to Pennsylvania. I'm dedicating this program to the memory of my dad,

Harry Arnzen, who passed in 1998.

I can't believe it is almost 25 years since the anniversary of my dad's passing.

The Lord did give me, thankfully, some fairly strong evidence that my dad is spending an eternity with Christ, and I am dedicating this to him because I can't think of another person on the planet

Earth who would have loved hearing today's interview other than him.

In fact, if my dad were alive, I would, as long as he was mentally capable of conducting an interview at this point in his age, if he were still living,

I would have loved for him to join me as a co -host on this interview. The reason that I am dedicating this show to my dad is that my dad, who was not only trained to be a glider pilot in the

Army Air Corps in World War II, thankfully, he contracted pneumonia because had he not,

I probably, very likely, would not be sitting here doing this program because I never would have been born.

There was a very high fatality rate amongst glider pilots because it was really considered a suicide mission when they would glide over enemy territory without an engine so they would be completely silent, and those who were soldiers aboard those crafts would parachute down, but the pilot would land eventually and be a sitting duck, perhaps right in the middle of enemy territory.

So my dad was always in love with everything that involves aircraft and aerospace.

He worked for Republic Aviation in his earliest years in the industry, designed the thrust reverse, which is something that every jet now has to slow it down when it lands, and then he moved on to Grumman Aviation, which also became

Grumman Aerospace, where he was on the team that designed the lunar module. And I'm dedicating this program to him, just as I did during my first interview with my guest in 2005, and that guest happens to be astronaut

Colonel Jeffrey N. Williams, who orbited the Earth more than 8 ,500 times, walked in space five times, which totals 534 days in space, and captured more photographs of the

Earth than any other astronaut in history, and many of those photographs are found in his book

The Work of His Hands, A View of God's Creation from Space. Today we are addressing the very important theme, especially in our day and age, the apparent conflict between science and scripture, gleaning from the mind, career, and experiences of a

Christian astronaut who truly believes God made the Earth by his power, established the world by his wisdom, and by his understanding, stretched out the heavens, which is from Jeremiah 10, verse 12.

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back, after so many years, since 2005, welcoming you back to the

Einsherp and Zion Radio Program, Colonel Jeffrey N. Williams. Thank you,

Chris, it's great to be back with you today. Well, I'm going to give our listeners our email address right away.

If you have any question that you always wanted to ask an astronaut, especially a Christian astronaut, send it to chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name, at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. I strongly urge all of you, after this live program is over, to go to ironsherponsirenradio .com

and listen to the first interview I conducted with Colonel Jeffrey Williams, which was on November 23, 2015.

All you need to do is go to ironsherponsirenradio .com and type in the search engine astronaut, and he will be the only guest whose recording comes up.

He's the only astronaut I've ever interviewed. And you will be amazed when you hear this past program by the questions that came in, which were nearly exclusively from children ages from kindergarten through the 12th grade, from Christian schools all over the

United States. We had done a lot of pre -publicity of that interview to the headmasters and principals of Christian educators and Christian schools all over the

United States. And we got an enormous flood of questions that came in.

We didn't even come close to scratching the surface of all the questions that came in. And you will be amazed at how intelligent these questions were by children.

So I hope that doesn't make any of you listening hesitate because you might embarrass yourself because your question as an adult may be infinitely less intelligent than a child wrote to us.

But I'm sure that all of us have questions that we may think are juvenile or something that should be a no -brainer or commonly known.

And we unfortunately keep our mouths shut when in reality there might be thousands of people listening who had the same question.

But that interview will also have, my guess, salvation testimony.

But since we have already heard that, I would at least like to hear from you again.

I know that this will be some repetition of your first interview, Colonel Williams. But how did you actually become an astronaut?

Good question. When I grew up, I was on a dairy farm in northern Wisconsin, and such a possibility of being a pilot or certainly an astronaut was over my horizon.

But going through high school, my father, who worked as a guidance counselor during those years, had the opportunity to go visit all the military academies.

And that got me exposed to them and specifically

West Point. And I decided to apply to West Point my junior year, and I ended up getting there.

So at West Point, one of my first exposures that really intrigued me was to get picked up by a helicopter after a field training exercise during the basic training.

And I thought we were all wet and cold and muddy, and we'd been out in the woods for a few days.

And those guys up in the front, they were dry and looked comfortable and clean. And I thought,

I want to do that. And so that got exposed me to aviation. I set it as a goal to become a pilot.

Later on, I learned about the work as an experimental test pilot.

I read the book by Tom Wolfe, The Right Stuff. I think it was about 1978 or so that came out.

That really intrigued me. I had a mentor there at West Point who was applying to the astronaut program and also wanting to go to the

Naval Test Pilot School. He was also engineering academically, and I was in the engineering program at West Point.

That same year, 1978, the first Army astronaut was selected, General Bob Stewart.

So I knew that there was a path, a potential path as an

Army officer to NASA. So it was in the late 70s I set it as a goal. I didn't start applying until 1985.

I still didn't have a lot of experience in the Army, but I had just come back from an operational tour of three years in West Germany.

I was going to just keep proceeding in my career, doing whatever

I was assigned to do. But I applied for the first time. I didn't get even considered.

The Challenger accident happened shortly after that. But in 1987, I got interviewed by NASA.

I did not get selected, but I got invited down there to work in Houston. So I went and worked supporting the crews in the return to flight after the

Challenger accident and stayed there for four years. It didn't work out again.

In the end, I got medically disqualified in what I would call a technicality in 1992.

So the Lord closed that door, at least temporarily, but opened the door to go to Experimental Test Pilot School at Patuxent River Naval Air Station in Maryland, which is, as I said, something

I wanted to do my entire career as well. So I went there. Then I flew as a test pilot for a couple of years at Edwards Air Force Base.

I continued to apply to NASA, even though I had that medical disqualification. But that cleared in 1996, and I was considered, and I interviewed, and they picked me.

So that started my NASA career in 1996 in the position of an astronaut, which, looking back, the timing was perfect.

In the meantime, I got to do a lot of very rewarding things and things that I think helped equip me for the later job, which was the last 25 years dedicated to the building of the

International Space Station. By the way, I have to comment on a listener comment who saw your photograph.

I don't know, Colonel Williams, if you know the very well -known

Orthodox Presbyterian pastor, historian, and professor

Carl Truman, but you bear a striking resemblance to him.

And the guest, or I should say the listener, said, I saw your guest's photograph.

What is Carl Truman doing wearing an astronaut's uniform? I don't think

Carl and I have met. I know of him through his writings and whatnot. In fact,

I really appreciate it. It's one of the more recent works that he put out related to all the social issues going on in our culture right now.

I feel sorry for Carl. No, for those of you, obviously, who cannot see my guest, he is quite a strikingly handsome individual.

So going back to something you said, is it required of an astronaut to have a pilot's license, even though I'm assuming the operation of those very different crafts are very different from one another?

Yeah, they are very different. It's not required to be a pilot, to be an astronaut. In fact, if you look at it historically, about half of the astronauts historically have been from the military, and the vast majority of us have been pilots and even experimental test pilots.

So with that background, the other half historically of the astronaut corps have come out of the civilian world with different backgrounds, different types of engineering, science, medical, etc.

It's not required, but it's a skill that I think would be obvious to most of your listeners, is very applicable to operating a spacecraft and working in space.

It's a rapidly changing, potentially high -stress environment that you need to be able to function.

And riding a rocket is very similar to pulling G's in a jet, and you have to be able to continue to fly and keep your situational awareness up and everything else going on around you and make real -time decisions and talk at the same time.

Now, did your born -again experience proceed or come after becoming an astronaut?

Actually, before. My wife and I both came to faith in late 87, early 88.

Her suddenly and me in a process trying to figure out what happened to her from October 87 until January 88 is when she and I got together and I asked her to pray and I committed my life to Christ.

So that was several years before. So I was selected, as I said, in 1996 by NASA in the astronaut job, so that gave me a few years to develop a faith to give me a little bit of grounding to go into what could be a pretty challenging circumstance.

I'm assuming, just like most vocations, that it is rare for someone in the aerospace industry to be a born -again believer.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but tell us about that. Well, rare is a relative term.

You could say across our society that being a born -again believer in Jesus Christ is rare.

It's no different there than it is in the general walks of society.

What a lot of people think is they think that if you're in an area of science or technology, that you're in a field that is atheistic in its core and you would be an outlier to be a believer in that environment.

And that's not true. That's absolutely not true. Although we're a minority,

I would say that there are many believers at NASA, many believers in the scientific field.

Their voice is largely not heard because the media doesn't carry the voice. Hence, that's one reason, at least in contemporary times, that there's a general perception of the public that it's atheistic and it would be very unusual to be a believer in that world.

But it's not true. And have you ever, in your experiences, especially when you are actually in outer space, with fellow astronauts in your capsule with you, have you ever had any either affirming or negative responses to anything that you might have to say about your faith?

Like, I know that if I was in a capsule hurling into outer space, I would definitely be praying a lot.

And I don't know if anybody ever said, Will you please shut up, Williams? You've heard enough of your praying.

You're making me unnerved by your constant prayers. Or did you ever hear the words,

Oh, thank you for that. That makes me feel more comfortable. Well, by the grace of God, I never had any what

I would call negative experiences up there in that regard. Obviously, you have to use common sense in an environment like that.

We're a team. We're a crew. Our lives are literally dependent upon each other. So we spend a lot of time dedicated before flight to build a relationship, a relationship of trust and confidence in one another.

And you don't want to be provocative and challenge that. So I never had any strong negative feelings.

I mean, people knew of my faith in varying degrees. And by degree, I mean, some are more willing to get into conversations about it than than others.

There were several times with either crews that I on the crew,

I was flying with long duration on the space station or visiting space shuttle crews, for example, where other believers were on board with me.

And that was a wonderful time where we could share some devotions together on Sunday morning.

I even shared communion with a couple of different individuals while I was up there, open the

Bible and consider the appropriate passages that relate to God's creative work.

Yeah. So that was very encouraging. Wow. One thing I'd like to give our audience an update over.

If you heard my first interview with Colonel Williams in 2005, there has been a wonderful update in that my guest,

Colonel Jeffrey N. Williams has since received his doctorate in ministry degree from Masters Seminary, the

Masters Seminary, the seminary founded by John MacArthur, who is one of my modern day heroes, as well as a hero of my guest,

Jeffrey Williams. So why don't you tell us about that? Yeah, I was at an event in Texas, I think, up near Dallas.

And John MacArthur was there with me. We were both speaking at, I think it was a creation conference, but we were having breakfast together and he was telling me about kind of a, not a new program, but a renewed program, reformatted doctor and ministry program.

And he talked about some other initiatives there, too. And I thought, I remember my reply was, wow, sign me up.

But it was just a little bit of just entering into the conversation at the time. And I had assumed, well, that a doctor of ministry program would not be possible because I didn't have a theological degree prior.

But then in a later conversation with, I think, our mutual friend, Phil Johnson, I got talking about it and I said to him, yeah,

I would love to do that, but I don't meet the prerequisites. And so I couldn't get accepted.

And he said, well, you know, there's ways to make exceptions. And you have so many advanced degrees already,

I think you're a candidate for an exception. So I wouldn't conclude that you could not be considered.

So I went ahead and just applied online. And one thing led to another. Eventually I got accepted into the program.

So it was a three -year program, and I graduated in May of 21, so two years ago.

It was a wonderful program. It brought in lots of great speakers. We would spend two weeks in July at the seminary with just a concentrated program.

And then you had a pile of books to read and a bunch of papers to write. And then in January we would be back there for one week.

And that went on for two years. And then the third year was a big project, a preaching project, which

I actually did up where I live now at a place called Word of Grace Bible Church in Washington State.

And it was a series related to worldview, but specifically with God's work of creation and some of the things

I know that you're going to want to talk about here in the coming minutes and hour.

Yes, in fact, I would love for you to talk more about Word of Grace Church, which

I understand began as an outreach to the Russian population in battleground

Washington and surrounding areas right near the doorstep of my very dear friend,

William Webster, who is a pastor in that area also and a theologian and apologist and author of many books.

Tell us more about this Word of Grace Church, because I find it fascinating that you who have worked with Russians, with Russian astronauts,

I guess they call them cosmonauts, if I'm not mistaken. Yes. And even in Russia, how the at the present day, with all the tensions going on due to the war in Ukraine, where you have now

American citizens who are native Russians and Ukrainians, perhaps even worshiping in the same church.

Tell us more about this church and about your current relationships with those, especially of Russian and Ukrainian background.

Yeah, well, it's an amazing story. We could do a whole interview just on that theme. Word of Grace Bible Church or in Russian Slovo Blagodate, which translates the same word of grace, founded start about 20,

I think it's 26 years ago. And it wasn't started as an outreach to Russian speakers.

It was Russian speakers that founded the church. And after the fall of the Soviet Union, there were in the 90s in particular, there were three waves of immigration to various places in the

US. The biggest concentration of Russian speakers, Slavic Russian speakers.

So more than Russia, Ukraine and the former Soviet republics is in the

Sacramento Valley area in California. The second biggest concentration is here,

I believe, in the Portland, greater Portland, Oregon area of Vancouver, Washington. And we're in Battleground, which is just outside of Vancouver.

There's other pockets across the country. There's a pretty good population in Minneapolis.

There's a population in Providence, Rhode Island, in that area, in Florida, in both the

Carolinas and other places across the country. So these churches were started by those that immigrated from the former

Soviet Union. And previously they were in the Russian Baptist Union, most of them or many of them.

And they were very persecuted in Soviet times. Our pastor here, Alexei Kolomytsev, his father, also named

Alexei Kolomytsev, spent three years in prison in the 1960s for his faith.

So the KGB was trying to round up the male leaders of home churches, especially what they call the underground church at the time.

So they came from that background. With the fall, they immigrated here. This particular congregation,

Word of Grace, really grew after Alexei came here.

He originally came to the U .S. to get training in the Bible. He knew he needed that with the intent to go back to Russia in 1995 or so.

Long story, but he ended up at the Master's Seminary in 1996 or 7.

And finished a D -man and a THM. And the door to go back to Russia closed on him.

They were twisting his arm to come up here, so he came up here instead. So he got here in 2002.

They started recording the sermons shortly after he got here and started distributing them kind of informally just because people were interested.

That quickly grew. And just to, not to go into all the details, but now currently on YouTube and other platforms, the

Internet and some radio stations in Asia and Eastern Europe, we get about 2 million downloads every month of sermons.

So he is the, I believe it's fair to say, the most listened to Russian preacher in the world through our media ministry.

I had been for years worshiping and networking with evangelical leaders in the

Moscow area, long before I knew this place even existed. But in 2014,

Alexei and I, in God's providence, were at an event in California and we knew of each other, but we had never met.

And when we met at that event, it was a missionary retreat in Oxnard, California.

We met and he invited us, my wife and I, to come up for a visit here, which we did, we readily accepted the invitation, because I had just learned about him and the reach that he had.

He is an amazing gifted preacher. I call him the John MacArthur of the

Russian -speaking world. Others do, too. That's a high compliment, that's for sure. Yes, he's very gifted.

He's become a very dear friend and brother in Christ. We communicate almost every day.

And, of course, now we're ministering together. I won't go into all the details, but the Lord moved my family and I up here in 2020.

I call it under the cover of COVID. And we joined the ministry here. I was ordained as one of the elders here this past Palm Sunday, so we're ministering here in the local church together, as well as, of course, the extended reach around the world.

You mentioned the current tensions because of the war, significantly impacting my work with NASA and our work on the

International Space Station, but the partnership is strong and we continue to operate, and even with the given constraints, the political constraints and practical constraints with the war going on.

So it's been a big impact on the NASA front. It also, I think it would be obvious to your listeners, it's been a big impact to us here.

We've had well over 120 families come to us here, mostly

Ukrainian, but recently also Russian families, believers come in here because they know of this church, they've been listening to it, many of them for years, and they were able to get out of either

Ukraine or Russia, and they found their way here. In fact, in our home here, we have a little guest house in the back.

We've got a Ukrainian refugee family staying with us temporarily until they get established. So it has been a big impact.

So I look back over my life and see God's providence in all of that.

Over my NASA career, with all the training I had to do there and then supporting other missions that I wasn't flying on,

I think I've been to Russia 60 times, six to zero times, accumulating about six years of total time there.

And before that, in the Cold War, focused on the Soviet Union as the enemy, stationed for three years in West Germany.

All of that the Lord used to prepare us for our current task of ministering here in this very unique place in America, ministering to Russian speakers around the world.

Praise God. We're going to pick up where we left off when we come back from our first commercial break. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, you'll have to get in line because there are already some folks who have submitted questions.

But if you want to get in line, send me an e -mail to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Don't go away. We'll be right back with astronaut Colonel Jeffrey N.

Williams right after these messages from our sponsors. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

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We're now back with Colonel Jeffrey N. Williams, who is a Christian astronaut, and we are discussing the apparent conflict between science and scripture.

We'll be getting to that main theme momentarily. I just wanted to say a few more words or ask a few more questions about this outreach to the

Russian people in Battleground Washington, where my guest is involved,

Word of Grace Church in Battleground. I'm so glad that there is a truly biblical alternative to the

Russian Orthodox Church available to the Russian immigrants and Ukrainian immigrants there in Battleground Washington.

And by the way, anybody who would like to hear an interview I did not long ago with Joshua Schooping on his book

Disillusioned, Why I Left the Eastern Orthodox Priesthood and Church, go to irontrapandzionradio .com

and type in the search engine Schooping, S -C -H -O -O -P -I -N -G. But I am just so thrilled about the existence of this ministry, and I'm assuming that the services are available in both

English and in Russian? That's right. We have two services on Sunday.

The first one is Russian, and the second one is English. So we have, because of the consequences of COVID and restrictions and then some theological drifting among some local congregations with the social justice or other things that have been going on in our society, we've had a continual flow of non -Russian speakers come to us as well here that have been living in the area for a long time.

Great. And I don't know if you are familiar with my friend who

I've interviewed on at least two occasions over there in Kiev, Ukraine, Mykola Leliavsky, but he is on the faculty, a professor of biblical theology and hermeneutics at Grace Bible Seminary in Kiev, Ukraine.

And this conversation with you has reminded me that I've got to get Mykola back on the program for an update.

Have you had any interaction with him at all? I have not. Okay, I believe the seminary,

I could be wrong, but I believe the seminary has some affiliation with John MacArthur, but I will find out about that later on when

I invite him back on. Before I move off this topic, have you noticed from conversation between Russian and Ukrainian immigrants, is there a disagreement or is there a commonality in either agreement or disagreement with whether or not and how much the

United States should be participating in the war in Ukraine, supporting

Ukraine? Yeah, we haven't discussed that topic openly very much. I'm sure the opinions are across the spectrum just like they are in general among Americans.

What I have observed here is people have come to us here because of the faithfulness of this congregation, the witness to Jesus Christ and the

Word of God. Many or most, if not all, have listened for years remotely.

And so the gospel has been the transcendent power in my observation among those that have come to us that the political discussions have been largely subdued.

Well, I praise God that Ukrainian immigrants have not at least entirely felt too apprehensive to visit and join this predominantly

Russian congregation. No, in fact, it's just been the opposite. They have gone all out to get themselves here, particularly young families.

This is a place that people want to raise their children. By the way, if anybody wants to hear my two interviews with Mykola Leliovsky, the professor of biblical theology and hermeneutics at Grace Bible Seminary in Kiev, Ukraine, go to ironsharpenzionradio .com

and just type in the search engine Mykola, M as in Michael, Y -K -O -L -A.

Mykola, which is the Ukrainian pronunciation for Nikolai, pronunciation and spelling.

But M -Y -K -O -L -A, that's M as in Michael, Y -K -O -L -A, and you will see both of those audio links.

And also, for anybody interested in either visiting, joining, or recommending, or supporting the work of the church that we have been discussing in Battleground Washington, Word of Grace Church in Battleground, go to slovo .org,

S -L -O -V as in victory, O, dot org. Well, tell us something about the main theme that we are addressing today.

Colonel Williams, the apparent conflict between science and scripture.

That issue, that divide, has obviously been greatly magnified today where barely anyone in the world could have escaped the fact that there is a tension, not only between those that claim a modern and revisionist understanding of science, which in many cases,

I believe, is fake science, promoted by the leftists, and those that are not only

Bible -believing Christians, but even conservatives in general. This has come about or been magnified in its focus because of the whole

COVID situation, the whole vaccine situation. Tell us about some of the core reasons you want to address this specific issue today.

Yeah, you touched on some recent events. Obviously, it has put a nick in the armor of the authority of science and scientists just with the recent

COVID experience and now some of the things that are coming out even after the fact.

But I can go back even earlier. When I first got into this job, I would often get the question along the lines of, how can you be a believer and work for NASA?

How can you be a believer and work in the field of science? So getting those questions,

I had to address them very early. And I've spent most of my believing years, actually, so 30 years or more, focused on trying to answer that question.

And that has helped, I think, develop my biblical worldview in regards to creation and all of the things related to creation to address those questions.

And, of course, that's a theological study to try to understand the scriptures. John MacArthur, you mentioned him a couple of times.

He gave the series on Genesis, the early chapters of Genesis. Back, I think it was in the 90s, called The Battle for the

Beginning. That was very helpful. Many other like teachings have been very helpful. Then I started digging deeper also into the history.

And my conclusion has been that this conflict has been one of the most successful propaganda campaigns in modern history.

And by modern history, I'm talking the last close to 200 years, maybe even a little bit longer, after the

Enlightenment and philosophy started creeping in and growing in to try to undermine the

Bible, undermine the institution of the Church. That primarily was the motivation, less of the

Bible. But if you go back in history and you look at some of the classic scientists that were known because of the age of science, go back to think about Johannes Kepler in the area of astronomy or Isaac Newton.

We all get exposed to Newton's laws even in high school and certainly in college, laws of physics, classic physics.

Other scientists like Boyle, if you ever went through scuba certification, you got

Boyle's law introduced to you or taught to you. Michael Faraday in electromagnetics.

Louis Pasteur, we have pasteurized milk named after him. James Clerk Maxwell.

All of those guys were big names if you go through a curriculum of science and engineering.

They're all in the textbooks. They all have laws named after them or equations named after them.

But nowhere in the textbooks do you find the fact that they were all theologians first.

They were driven by their faith and their understanding of the Creator and His creative work in His work in basically building our habitation that we call

Earth and everything around it and provisioning it for our good and for His glory.

And when we think of provisions, we think of natural resources that we might mine out of the ground or different types of elements we might pull out of the atmosphere and use oxygen, helium, whatever, or we might think of chemical reactions where we put two things together, apply a little heat or electricity and get something else.

And we get alloys out of that. We get all kinds of materials. And that, of course, explains a lot of technology and the history of technology development.

But they were driven by their faith in that they had some presuppositions,

I would say biblical presuppositions that went into their, what they regarded as a calling.

It was their calling to work as scientists. By the way, could you pick up on their presuppositions after we return from our midway break?

Because I don't want to interrupt you in mid -sentence. This is going to be the longer -than -normal break, folks.

Please be patient with us. The middle of the show, the break is always a little bit longer than the other breaks because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

FM in Lake City, Florida, airs this program twice a day, a rerun from the previous day, and they do so in morning drive and in the evening.

And they are required by the FCC to use the middle of this show to localize

Iron Trip and Zion Radio geographically to Lake City, Florida, where the station is located.

So they use their own public service announcements and other local things to do so. We urge you to use this time wisely in this middle of the break.

Not only write down as much of the information provided by our advertisers as you possibly can so that you can more frequently and successfully respond to our advertisers and contact them.

And we hope that means that you will often buy their products, use their services, support their parachurch organizations, and visit their churches.

But when you can't do any of those things, there's one thing that every single Iron Trip and Zion Radio listener can do.

If you really love the show, you don't want it to disappear, and you're grateful to advertisers for making this show possible through their funding, because we can't exist without our advertisers, folks.

If you're really grateful that God has placed it upon their hearts to share some of their wealth with Iron Trip and Zion Radio so that we can continue to exist, please very simply thank them.

Send them an email or contact them in any other way they provide in their advertisements, and thank them for sponsoring

Iron Trip and Zion Radio. And also use this time to send in your questions to Colonel Jeffrey Williams. We thank our listeners who have already submitted questions for their patience.

We will get to your questions. There are as many of them as possible before the end of the program. But the email address, again, is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We are going to be right back with Jeffrey Williams right after these messages.

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here. I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend, Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

G3 National Conference. That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd on a theme that I have been preaching, teaching, writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.

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Chris Arnson and I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd for the

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Go to g3min .org and enter promo code G3ISIR for your 30 % discount off the registration fee.

O hail the power of Jesus' name.

This is Pastor Bill Sousa of Grace Church at Franklin here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially.

Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our

Lord Jesus Christ. And, of course, the end of which we strive is the glory of God.

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our

Sovereign Lord, God, Savior, and King Jesus Christ today and always.

I'm Dr. Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell.

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

Christ Jesus the King and His doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.

I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love, as I have.

For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

That's hopereformedli .net. Or call 631 -696 -5711.

That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

Getting a driver's license, running a cash register, flipping burgers, passing sixth grade.

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Thanks for helping to keep Ion Sharpen's Ion Radio on the air. Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,

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He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

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Before I return to my guest, astronaut Jeffrey N. Williams, on our theme, The Apparent Conflict Between Science and Scripture, I just have a couple of very important announcements to make.

First of all, folks, if you really love the show and you don't want it to disappear, go to IonSharpen'sIonRadio .com,

click support, then click, click to donate now. You could donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that fashion.

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So send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line. I want to remind you folks when you give a financial gift to Ion Sharpen's Ion Radio, I never want any of you to give less money to your own local church where you are a member on the

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Also, folks, please don't forget that my dear friend, Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries is going to be preaching at a conference, a three -day conference in Lancaster, Pennsylvania.

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And we will keep you updated as to the exact location of the three -day conference.

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White and some other speakers from the Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society who, along with me, are arranging and hosting this conference.

If you want more details, and if you want to continue visiting these websites for updates, go to futureofchristendom .org,

futureofchristendom .org, and you can also go to midatlanticreformation .org, midatlanticreformation .org,

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Christ -honoring, biblically faithful, theologically sound, doctrinally solid church like Word of Grace Church in Battleground, Washington, well,

I have extensive lists spanning the globe, and I have helped many people in the Iron Sharpens Iron radio audience from all over the planet

Earth find churches, sometimes even within just a couple of minutes from where they live, so I may be able to help you, too.

Just send me an email if you are in that position of not having a biblically faithful church home, or not being aware of one in your area.

Send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can submit a question to our guest,

Jeffrey N. Williams, who is an astronaut. The email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com, and Colonel Williams, if you could pick up where you left off, because I had to interrupt you before we went into our midway break.

Yeah, you bet. And I apologize. I have no short answers to these questions. No, I don't want you to give short answers.

One of the reasons the show is two hours long. No, it's very important,

I think, for believers to understand the historical context of this apparent conflict. And like I said, in the age of science, or the scientific revolution, the vast majority of those scientists that we all learn about, and who have laws or equations named after them, they were believers first.

They were driven by their theology to subdue, to have dominion, bearing the image of God, called into the area of science to develop what

God has provisioned His creation with for the glory of God and for the good of mankind.

It boils down to that. They had three presuppositions that I think are very important to understand what drove them.

And they should be included in our worldview in God's creative work and upholding

His creation. The first presupposition was that creation was rationally ordered.

There was a definite ordering to God's creative work. And it's very obvious if we think about it.

There's a mathematical ordering of creation. Everything can be virtually can be described or approximated with a mathematical equation.

Math is, some would call it the language of God. And it applies to virtually all areas of life.

We know it is objective. It is factual. It's very precise.

And that, so mathematics is a demonstration of the order of God's creation.

And by the way, it wasn't something man invented. It was something discovered. And it continues to be discovered.

It's been there always. The second presupposition related to that ordering is that the ordering is precise.

And I contend the precision is infinitely precise. We're only limited by our ability to measure it.

I mentioned mathematical ordering. Another example in precise ordering would be the periodic table of elements.

So there's a chemical ordering. There's an optical ordering. If we think about lenses and the use of lenses to see things far away or to make very small things visible.

And of course, many of us wear corrective lenses, you know, so we understand optics.

There's a precision in the ordering in the area of optics. For those in the listening audience that don't have a love or appreciation for math or science, the other illustration

I give is music. Music is a wonderful example of the ordering of God's creative work.

There's a math behind it. And it also is a clear demonstration that not only is the order kind of practically good, but it is pleasing to us.

There's a response that we get to it bearing the image of God. When there is harmony and unity in something, it is pleasing to the eye.

When there's harmony and unity in music, it's pleasing to the ear, which is directly related to us bearing the image of God.

So order is the first presupposition. Precision in the ordering is the second one. And the third one is what

I call contingency. It's a little bit harder to understand. But basically what it means is that lawful ordering in God's creative work is imposed on His creation.

It's not inherent in the creation. And what that means is, in a practical sense, is you have to go figure it out.

You have to go figure out the laws of nature, what we call the laws of nature. We have to go figure out the mathematical equation to describe something that we see.

And that's what science is. And we do it by observation, by hypothesis, by experimenting, by finding out whether our hypothesis is true or to the degree it's not true, doing more observation, more experimenting.

And that's what those ancient scientists did in the scientific revolution.

Creation was contingent, but it could be investigated. It was intelligible. You could find it out.

And that's what drove their science, their call to science. By the way, there's a great story by Maxwell.

James Clerk Maxwell was the founder. He was charged to build and develop what was called the

Cavendish Laboratory in Oxford. And this was in the 1800s.

And he did that. And he was one of those scientists that I mentioned earlier that was driven by his faith.

And over the big wooden carved doors at the grand entrance to this laboratory, he had carved in Latin the words of Psalm 111, verse 2, which reads in English, Great are the works of the

Lord, studied by all who delight in them. It's acknowledging the wondrous works of God.

And I would include the works of creation, sustaining His creation, the works of provisioning, the works of providence, all understood through His work of redemption.

And it's not a command in Psalm 111, verse 2, to study the works or to delight in them.

Those are adjectives that describe the works. They are studied works by delighting believers.

That's what drove the scientists. Psalm 111 is known historically as the Scientist Psalm.

So why the conflict? Well, that's another big question with a lot of details in the answer.

But I'll just remind your readers of some names that they might be familiar with. Certainly people are familiar with Charles Darwin and the whole theories of evolution and related theories that he propagated.

through his works. But Darwin really wasn't the public image in propagating those things.

There were others that, first off, before Carwin, there was a guy by the name of James Hutton. And I'll mention a few names.

Your listeners can go research them on their own. James Hutton was in the 1700s.

He was a deist. He promoted the idea of the Earth being millions of years old.

He suggested the idea of continuous evolution. He wasn't the first, but he was well before Charles Darwin.

He was a friend, by the way, of Charles' grandfather, Erasmus Darwin. So there's another name that highly influenced

Charles later on, two generations later. The year that James Hutton died, another man was born by the name of Charles Lyell.

And Lyell is known as the guy that really propagated the idea of what is called uniformitarianism, which means that basically all processes that we observe today have continued for indefinite periods of time.

And that's where you get kind of the concept of erosion of the Grand Canyon and things like that, that it happens over millions or tens or hundreds of millions of years.

His goal was to use this concept of the old Earth to directly undermine the

Bible's first 11 chapters. It wasn't a direct attack on the Bible, but it was an indirect attack on the

Bible. And we know even today how the first 11 chapters of Genesis are considered by the vast majority of the world, and unfortunately many believers as well, because of this history.

Charles Lyell did probably more harm than many in history to do just that, to undermine the

Bible. But after him, or actually during his time, Thomas Huxley, which is a name known to many of your listeners as well,

I'm sure, he was known as Darwin's bulldog. He's the one that really championed the conclusions that Darwin came to in his work on origins.

And Huxley even acknowledged that it really wasn't much science in that work, but he used it as a tool to carry forward basically a propaganda to again undermine the scripture.

He wanted to get Christianity specifically out of the public square and separate it from so -called science, even though it was more philosophy than science.

By the way, I'll mention another name, John Dewey, who was a fan of Darwin, follower of Huxley.

He's known as the father of the American education system. In fact, I interviewed

Pete Hegseth of Fox News on the American education system, and that was a core aspect of the discussion.

Yes, and a great thing that we need to understand, to understand what's going on in the world today and how we can proceed forward.

But Dewey was heavily influenced, and obviously his work has led to what we see all around us today in the social aspects of our culture and really around the world.

Yes, he was a Marxist. Absolutely. In fact, he developed a vision for the progressive welfare state.

So, yeah, so Dewey is kind of on the side where I want to go from Huxley. I want to go back to Huxley and then talk about two other men that were highly influenced by him.

They were both Americans. One was born here. One was an immigrant from England. John William Draper was the first in the mid and late 1800s is when he lived, and the other one is

Andrew Dixon White, who also lived in the late 1800s, but I think he passed away in about 1918.

They were American scientists. They self -proclaimed scientists and educators, and they were highly influenced by Huxley, and they were also in the academic world.

In fact, Andrew Dixon White was the founding president of Cornell University. They both published works of history.

Draper's work was called A History of the Conflict Between Religion and Science, and in that work, he talked about the progressive power of science that was set against the regressive and repressive power of religion.

We hear those words all the time today, that religion is regressive, that it represses progress, and science is progressive.

That came from, in part anyway, Draper's work. White was a little bit more aggressive, actually a lot more aggressive.

He was a very popular public speaker in his time, and he propagated the same thing, only more aggressively, and he wrote even a larger volume work of history, is what he called it, and it was

A History of the Warfare of Science with Theology and Christendom.

So again, positing that there's this always been this inherent war between science and Christianity.

The problem was both those works by Draper and White, both the conflict, in Draper's case, and the warfare propagated by White were fabricated as works of history.

And it wasn't too long before the academic world dismissed them as fabrications, and not legitimate works of history.

But White in particular was so aggressive in his public speaking that the conflict thesis, which is what it is called still, became kind of set in the public mind, so that in the public mind they just assume that.

That's just a fact they know from history that the conflict, the warfare has always been there, even though it was dismissed by the academic world.

Like I said, shortly after those works of publication in the early 1900s, but it kind of went low profile until the 1980s, it started, academics started resurrecting the whole theme, and publishing works that documented this what we would call misinformation that is thought of in the public eye as being actual history when it's not.

There's a great book that I discovered a few months ago, after I had been developing this and talking about it, it's called,

I don't know if you like advertising books in your program. Oh, I definitely do, definitely. Okay, it's called

Of Popes and Unicorns. Great title. Yes, it's written by a couple of guys from England, and the subtitle is

Science, Christianity, and How the Conflict Thesis Fooled the World. It's the best work, and like I said, it was just published last year, and actually

I gave a talk in Colorado and included this theme, and the pastor there told me right after that,

I think he had discovered this, and he sent me a note, told me about the book, I got it and read it, and it's a great book to document this.

And you can, you know, your listeners can even look it up online, if you do a search for the conflict thesis, you'll find summaries of this work.

But that's why I call it one of the greatest examples of propaganda, successful propaganda campaign in modern history.

Great, well that was a lot of wonderful and very valuable information. Let's try to squeeze in some listener questions.

We have Joseph in South Central Pennsylvania who asks, how prevalent is the woke movement in your field?

I'm assuming that many people who are themselves pilots and astronauts would never want someone to be aboard either an aircraft or a space capsule with somebody who was placed there only or primarily because of their race rather than because of their experience and skill.

It would seem to me that that fear alone would drive most people in your field to a meritocracy where we are placed in positions in life where we do have the experience and skill.

Yeah, I would say that my observation in life and certainly in the field that I worked in and even broader than that when you live in the practical world where laws of nature apply, this kind of stuff stays removed.

It doesn't mean that not everybody is immune from being affected by it. We see it in our culture all over where folks

I would contend who are largely uninformed are kind of caught up in the movements of the day and can be caught up and it's our job to try to when given opportunity to try to educate them.

But yes, your listener is correct. We live in a very practical world.

You can't violate the law of gravity and survive. We have an anonymous listener who said, oh by the way,

Joseph, you have just won a free copy of the book that I mentioned earlier on in the program,

The Work of His Hands, A View of God's Creation from Space, a gorgeous book that you might call a coffee table book.

It's a very large beautiful hardback book filled with photographs that my guest

Colonel Jeffrey Williams has taken from space and to repeat what

I said in my introduction, Colonel Williams captured more photographs of Earth than any other astronaut in history and many of these photographs are in this book,

The Work of His Hands, and you've just won a free copy of the book. Please give us your full address there in South Central Pennsylvania and we want to thank our dear friends at Concordia Publishing House for providing a limited number of copies of this very gorgeous, expensive book to give away to our listeners today.

Anything that you care to mention further about this wonderful book that you have helped to create?

Well the book was, I wasn't planning on a book, it was an opportunity that fell on my lap and that was something

I thought an opportunity I needed to steward so I tried to take that opportunity to do just that and the book is hopefully not about me but about the works of God and taking the reader to the vantage point of orbit and considering the works of God as we've been talking.

That book incidentally covers a flight I did in 2006 to Expedition 13 and since then

I've flew two other long -duration six -month flights. And we also want to thank

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com, for shipping out this book to you,

Joseph, so thanks for the question. An anonymous listener asks,

I have many friends who agree with me on ninety -nine percent of our theological issues but we are in sharp disagreement over the matter that you mentioned earlier, the young earth versus old earth view.

I happen to be a vociferous and staunch young earth Christian and I was wondering how serious this difference is between brothers in Christ.

I know that we should not cut off our brothers who disagree but doesn't it seriously affect the way we view creation in the world?

Yeah, that's a very prevalent inconsistency

I would say in the faithful church around the world, largely, well, for different reasons.

One of those categories of reasons would be what I tried to summarize a few minutes ago because we have been inundated over the last couple of centuries with this idea that science supports old ages and, you know, that's too big of a topic to go into.

But I would just encourage the listener to continue to engage in a patient and generous way with those that don't believe in the biblical account and take them to the biblical account and challenge them in the presupposition that the

Bible is authoritative, that the Bible is true and we need to subordinate ourselves to that and then go look at the science that supposedly contradicts it.

I've been searching for the science for old earth and for evolution and for all of the related things since the beginning of my walk in faith and I really haven't found any.

It's all assumed, it's all presumed, and there's really no science there that is definitive that supports it.

It's the philosophical presuppositions that go into your science that really drive the conclusions.

Yeah, and I want to invite any of the old earth creationist listeners who might even be listening now either live or to a recording of this program,

I would invite you to participate in a debate with someone that I can easily find among the young earth creationist community.

And unfortunately to this point I have never received an acceptance to those invitations from the old earth folk who are very at times not only vociferous about their views but they can be,

I'm not broad -brushing because I have dear friends who are old earthers, but some of them can be quite nasty and actually accuse some of us young earth folks of being responsible for people going to hell because young people according to them are leaving the church in droves.

The primary reason is they think Christianity is moronic and the primary reason for that is that young earth creationists lead them to the opinion that Christians are moronic because their science is fake.

So that's what they, so I was shocked actually to experience some of the nastiness from some old earth folks who listen to the show.

By the way that was my one of my primary motivations of mentioning those names I did from history.

Oh wow. Okay well Anonymous please give us your full name and mailing address because you've also won a free copy of The Work of His Hands by Jeffrey Williams and thanks again to Concordia Publishing House for their generous donation of these books.

We have a listener in Findlay, Ohio. We have

Cindy in Findlay, Ohio and she says please forgive my simplistic question.

Could you please explain in layman's terms why there is no sunlight in space?

Perhaps you could even start by answering the question is that even true?

Is there sunlight in space? If you are in view of the sun there's lots of sunlight in space.

It illuminates, I mean it blinds you if you can't look at the sun directly for the same reason we can't look at it here and it illuminates everything around you.

What the question refers to is that space is very black especially if you look at pictures in daylight and on the day side of the earth not on the night side of the earth is you look out in space it's just black you can't see the stars.

You might be able to see the moon if it's in view but the sun blinds you from seeing the stars.

The reason it's black is there's nothing that the light is reflecting off from so you see the sun because that's the source of light and you see the reflection on the earth that's very bright because it's reflecting but to see light you either have to see the source or see it reflected off something.

Cindy make sure that we have your full mailing address in Findlay Ohio because you've also won a free copy of Colonel Williams's book

Compliments of Concordia Publishing House and also compliments of CVBBS .com

from Merlin Valley Bible Book Service who will be shipping that book out to you. We're going to our final break right now it's going to be more brief than the other breaks if you want to get in line and ask a question we will try to squeeze as many of your questions in as possible before the show concludes.

I already know that I want Colonel Williams to return to this show to do a part two of our discussion and I hope that he agrees to do that but our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com. As always give us your first name at least city and state and country of residence if you live outside of the good old

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Colonel Williams, we have CJ from Lyndon Hearst, Long Island, New York, who asks, what is your response to the argument primarily from liberals, although I'm not sure how vociferous they are in the 21st century about this, but I can recall it being a big deal in the 20th century where they would complain that sending people to outer space was a huge waste of money because it deprived the poor of resources that we would be otherwise providing for them.

Yeah, I don't think you hear that very often anymore. I don't think it's a valid argument.

I mean, that's another big question with a big answer, but social programs are not going to move us forward as a society

They will only hold back a portion of the population, which is what would be advocated in many of those circles.

I think that I remember a stimulus package in the Obama administration, and he canceled the lunar program at the time, and I was thinking to myself that that was true stimulus.

It was stimulating technology development. It was stimulating education, stimulating interest among young people, so there's lots of tangible and intangible benefits that we see in history with human exploration and discovery, and space exploration is just one of the current chapters of that.

Yeah, I remember a hit by a recording artist,

Gil Scott Heron. I think it came out in the 70s. He had a song called

Whitey's on the Moon, and he was being very much in the attack mode against sending astronauts to space.

We have Nick in Boulder, Colorado. He asks the question that one of the kids asked in your first interview from Christian schools.

Have you ever had any opportunities to minister to other astronauts? Yeah, great question,

Nick, and the answer is obviously, I think it should be obvious. It's yes, and I would broaden that to not just astronauts, but everybody that I've had the opportunity to cross paths with, both on and off the planet, and those opportunities come to us in life, and they come in different ways.

Some are more direct than others. I would contend that we all impact the people around us largely in ways that we'll never comprehend this side of eternity, so even if it's not an active witness where we're saying words directly to another individual, even if it's something shy of that, we are given witness by the way we live our life, and so I try to emphasize that every time

I get that kind of question. When we're given opportunity, yes, we should be witnessing directly, but our witness is not limited to that.

And we have another listener, Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina, who actually asked a similar question, but specifies it in regard to a specific person.

Greetings, brothers, and Colonel Williams. If you would have an opportunity to share our

Lord Jesus Christ with the Russian cosmonaut that said he did not see God, how would you have witnessed to him?

You know what he's speaking about? Yeah, Yuri Gagarin is noted for that, people.

I mean, he's known for that. At least that's the way history records it. I think to give a little bit of credit to Yuri, I think his full quote was taken a little bit out of context.

I mean, I could say that I went to space multiple times and I didn't see

God because God isn't seen in that way. I think in some sense it might have been an innocent reply to a question that Yuri gave, but it was used for propaganda purposes by Khrushchev primarily, and magnified from there.

But like anybody, with Yuri or anybody else, if given the opportunity, I would try to persuade them to think otherwise and share the testimony of Scripture.

By the way, all of you folks who have submitted questions today have won a free copy of Colonel Jeffrey Williams' book,

The Work of His Hands, A View of God's Creation from Space, thanks to our friends at Concordia Publishing House.

If you want more information about this book, go to cph .org, cph .org,

and you can type in the search engine, Jeff Williams, and you'll see everything that you need to know about that book.

I'd like you to conclude now, Colonel Williams, with a summary of what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

Well, I want people to begin to realize, if they haven't already, that science is not outside of our realm in terms of having a

Christian worldview. In fact, it's very much a part of it, because it's the study that we're capable to give because we've been created in the image of God, and He has provisioned

His creation for our investigation and for us to utilize, and that explains, from a biblical worldview, the history of human civilization, progress, technology development, and all of that.

And we need to take back that aspect of life and not leave it across the fence and separated in a secular field of life.

It is very much part of the biblical field of life. One more question. Have you had the opportunity to work with Christian astrophysicist, and also young -earth astrophysicist,

Jason Lyle? Yeah, I've spoken at conferences multiple times with Jason over the years,

I think since the early 2000s. I have not crossed paths with him in recent years, but previously, yes.

And another quick question. You've got a comment on the recent news reports about whistleblowers in the government talking about the wreckage of alien spacecrafts, and even the corpses of aliens in those crafts.

Any comment on that? I haven't looked at the reports, and I don't learn not to waste too much of my time on those kinds of reports.

Well, that explains how you feel about these, or how, I should say, what you believe about them. All right, well, thank you so much,

Colonel Williams. You did a superb job, as I knew you would. I want to thank everybody who listened, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater