July 23, 2024 Show with Joel Littlefield on “The Kingdom Minded Pastor: How Pastoral Partnership Advances the Kingdom”

Iron Sharpens Iron

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July 24, 2024

00:03: Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer
00:11: George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend
00:16: Jim Thorpe. It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,
00:23: Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
00:31: Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
00:38: Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
00:50: It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.
00:58: And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,
01:09: Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet
01:14: Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.
01:20: This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 23rd day of July 2024.
01:31: Before I introduce my first -time guest today and the topic we will address,
01:36: I just have some important reminders for you. If you're a man in ministry leadership, you are invited to the next free biannual
01:46: Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pastors Luncheon, which will be held Thursday, October 10th, 11 a .m.
01:52: to 2 p .m. at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania, which is
01:58: Perry County, Pennsylvania. That day, I should say, we are featuring for the very first time ever our keynote speaker, who is
02:08: Dr. Joseph Boot, the founder and president of the Ezra Institute.
02:14: And not only is your admission free and your lunch free and your time of hearing and edifying and challenging and encouraging message for men in the ministry by Dr.
02:25: Boot free and your time of rest, relaxation, fun, fellowship, and feasting all free, everybody who attends will receive a heavy sack of free brand -new books personally selected by me and donated by generous
02:40: Christian publishers all over the United States and United Kingdom. This is all free of charge to men in ministry leadership, whether you are a pastor, an elder, and by the way,
02:49: I believe that's the same office, whether you are a parachurch leader, whatever ministry leader position you hold to, if you are a man, you are invited.
02:59: Just send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com,
03:06: and put Pastors Luncheon in the subject line, and you will be automatically registered absolutely free.
03:12: And don't forget, mark on your calendars, that's Thursday, October 10th, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m.
03:18: at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania. Well, I'm absolutely thrilled to have on for the very first time ever
03:28: Pastor Joel Littlefield. He is a church planter, and he's the lead teaching pastor of New City Church in Bath, Maine, and today we are going to be addressing his book,
03:42: The Kingdom -Minded Pastor, how pastoral partnership advances the kingdom, and we're also going to be promoting the upcoming
03:52: Feed My Sheep conference. It's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the first time ever to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Pastor Joel Littlefield.
04:01: Hey brother, thank you so much. Honored to be on the show, and that's a lot of free stuff you're giving away, so I'm gonna see if I can get down there to Pennsylvania.
04:09: Well, that would be great if you do. It'd be worth the trip. Just to let you know, we have people who have attended the luncheon from as far away as Texas, Georgia, North Carolina, Virginia, upstate
04:26: New York, New York City, Baltimore, Washington, D .C. We have people coming from all over the place every time
04:36: I have this luncheon, so the books alone make it worth your trip. Oh, absolutely, and Maine is not too far.
04:43: It's not too far of a drive from Pennsylvania. Well, tell our listeners something about New City Church of Bath, Maine.
04:53: Well, providentially, this is a great day to be answering that question. Today is actually, to the day, the seventh anniversary of our church.
05:02: Yep, you landed it just right, Chris. Providence strikes again. Providence, that's right. Yeah, so July 23rd of 2017,
05:10: New City Church had our first public gathering at a local historical site in our area, the
05:17: Maine Maritime Museum, and we launched on a Sunday evening. Six months prior to that, my wife and I and our poor kids moved to Bath, and we were spending a short time away in Tennessee, came back to our home state to plant this church, and God, over a six -month period of time, gathered a small core team of people, and by His grace has allowed that to grow into a beautiful family that is now seven years old, so we're very, very grateful.
05:48: New City Church, we're part of the Southern Baptist Convention, and it's been a joy as a church planter to be a part of that, but I mean,
05:57: I've grown so much in that period of time, the last seven years. We now have five elders, we have four deacons, a beautiful church family that loves disciple -making, and we love each other.
06:10: We love fellowship, love the Word, and the preaching of the Gospel is central, so praise God for the work that He's done.
06:16: Wow, five elders, and how large, numerically, is your congregation? Our membership is right around 100, and I don't know, 100, right around 100, and then add kids to that, probably about 65, 70 kids.
06:33: Well, that's a great number of elders, because that further ensures that the flock is adequately cared for and shepherded, and that's just a wonderful thing to hear, because there are churches that are a lot larger numerically that have five or less elders.
06:56: Yeah, and I don't know how they do it. I don't know either, and I firmly believe in the plurality and parity of the eldership, and I'm so glad to hear that.
07:07: Well, before we go into—oh, let me make sure that I give the website of New City Church in Bath, Maine.
07:16: It's bathnewcity .church, bathnewcity .church, and we'll be repeating that,
07:23: God willing, later on in the program. Well, we have a tradition here on Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio, whenever we have a first -time guest, that guest will give a summary of their salvation testimony, including the religious atmosphere in which they were raised, if any, and what kind of providential circumstances our
07:41: Sovereign Lord raised up in their lives that drew them to Himself and saved them, and I would love to hear your story.
07:48: Oh, I'll gladly share it. Yeah, you know, I was raised in, I would say, a home that my mother did the best that she could to raise us in a
07:57: Christian atmosphere and upbringing. She was a new believer when she gave birth to my brother and I, only about a year apart, and so, sad to say but there wasn't a whole lot of support that I remember from my father's side.
08:15: I do believe he was raised in a Christian home, but he had a job at the time that pulled him away from our family pretty extensively, and so my mother did, you know, she shared with us the gospel, the hope of Christ, the way to salvation.
08:28: I remember that at about six years old, being told what I now know is the iconic sinner's prayer, and I prayed those words with my mother, and I remember being fairly happy telling some other kids in my neighborhood that I had become a
08:43: Christian and don't, you know, do you want to go to heaven sort of thing. And how long did it take you to recover after being beaten up?
08:54: Oh man, you know, I was in Louisiana at the time, spent some time down there as a child, and those, around six years old,
09:02: I wasn't getting beaten up too much by my friends. They were all just more curious. You know, a lot of people go to church in the south.
09:07: It wasn't uncommon to just be a churchgoer, so. By the way, I never in a million years would have guessed that your home state, your original home state, is
09:17: Maine. Yeah, it is, yes. I spent some time away. You don't sound anything like the sea captains that I've heard from Maine.
09:26: No, you have to go to my dad. My dad and my grandfather, they were the iconic sound of the
09:32: Yankees in Maine, that's what they'd say. So yeah, you know, so six years old, flash forward several years, there was no discipleship in my life.
09:42: The first introduction to a local church was a Methodist church with a female pastor in our little hometown.
09:49: Didn't know that that was any issue. Not sure why my mother didn't know at the time, but she does now. She would never condone female pastors, but that's what we had at the time.
10:00: But I was not discipled. And childhood, divorce at about 11 years old from my parents, several things that just sort of plummeted us into, well, we had no foundation really.
10:14: So I did not hope in Christ. I did not, though I would call myself a Christian, all through those years,
10:21: I had never repented of my sins. I really had no understanding of what it was to have a brokenness over myself and my sin and lean on a holy
10:30: God who had provided his perfect son for me. That didn't come till much later. I sort of wrecked myself through junior high and high school, doing the typical teenager, 90s sort of thing.
10:41: And the 90s and early 2000s, I'm a drummer, I was in a band, and that was my life at the time.
10:47: Just shoot for fame and stardom and notoriety. But it just so happened that after I had graduated high school,
10:56: I ended up in a city in Maine called Bangor, in which if you're out of state and you fly in, people usually call it
11:02: Bangor, but it's Bangor. And it's a little city up in the central part of Maine.
11:08: I went to college there. And God was starting to get a hold of my life through several different circumstances.
11:14: A Methodist preacher in our small town, God was piquing my interest.
11:21: Something from my childhood, I was recognizing that there was something missing. Anyway, many of your listeners are probably familiar with Calvary Chapel.
11:30: Calvary Chapel has a very large church in Bangor. At the time, it was probably about a thousand members,
11:37: I'd say. And they were advertising a college -age Bible study, college and career -age
11:43: Bible study. And I saw the advertisement on TV in my dorm room, and I just felt like I needed to go.
11:49: So I went, walked into a service, saw about a hundred kids worshiping, singing praises to the
11:56: Lord, and then sat in a one -hour Bible study in which every single kid between the ages of 12 and 18 were glued to their
12:03: Bibles. They actually brought their Bibles. So I was introduced to expository preaching. Heard the gospel, began to understand what repentance was, and God had gotten a hold of my heart.
12:14: I remember a moment of repentance. It just happened to be at a concert. I don't know if you remember the band
12:20: The Cry? You remember those guys? Sounds vaguely familiar. Yeah, I'd say, you know, 70s, 80s, 90s, probably more like 80s and 90s.
12:30: That would have been in the very early stages of my new birth in Christ, but for some reason, the bands that I saw in concert, and by saying this,
12:44: I'm not necessarily endorsing them now, but Petra I saw in concert.
12:51: I saw Striper, who I heard is now performing again.
12:56: I hope they're not still wearing spandex. And I still love
13:03: Michael Card, who I've seen in concert. And Phil Driscoll, I loved his trumpet playing, but hated and still hate his theology.
13:15: That would be some of the main guys that I remember. Well, now that you've mentioned those eras, I can now tell emphatically that The Cry was more late 90s, early 2000s.
13:24: They came out of Chuck Smith's church out in the California area. Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa. But anyway,
13:30: I was at a concert, and the story was, at the end of their concert, said, is there anybody who would like to respond to the gospel, repent of their sins, and trust in Christ?
13:40: And that moment, I was that 17 -year -old kid that realized that I was a sinner, that I was broken, and I wanted to follow
13:50: Christ. And so I did. I came forward weeping and was prayed over by a few individuals. And from that point on, my life was drastically different.
13:59: It only took about a year or two from that point where I was married to a godly woman.
14:10: Her dad was a pastor at Calvary Chapel there. And I began teaching the
14:17: Bible at age 20 into our youth group. God had just radically changed me from kind of a loose cannon, kind of a kid, to just wanting more than anything to get a hold of the scriptures, to preach and teach
14:31: God's Word, and to raise a family, to be married to my wife and be a good husband, good father. So we had kids at a very young age.
14:39: I was 19, and my wife was 17 when we got married. We just had our 21st anniversary this past July on the 19th, and I'm 41 years old.
14:48: Now I've got a grandson on the way. My oldest son is 19, about to turn 20 in August.
14:57: And him and his wife will be having a baby in November. So I have a lot to be grateful for to the
15:04: Lord. He saved me at 17 years old and gave me a beautiful wife.
15:11: We started a family. I've been in ministry now for 20 years, 20 plus years. And now full -time pastoral ministry for about seven.
15:19: But that's a little bit of my story. Well, you got to tell us, especially since your background is
15:25: Calvary Chapel, how on earth you discovered the doctrines of sovereign grace and came to understand them, believe them, embrace them, and fall in love with them.
15:37: Yeah, well, that's a good story to tell. There's a very good chance that my
15:44: Calvary Chapel brothers and family may listen to this, and they know that I've struggled with this.
15:50: This was a struggle through many years, because being a Calvinist in a Calvary Chapel movement actually brought quite a bit of heat to me.
15:59: Also, you were already a Calvinist while still in that movement. Yeah, so I was sort of a cage -stage
16:05: Calvinist in probably, I'd say, the year 2013.
16:12: Maybe 2012, when we moved down to Tennessee, I was developing those doctrines. I was one of those guys that just discovered
16:18: Driscoll back in the day, and then John Piper, and these other... Somebody had handed me an R .C. Sproul book out of nowhere.
16:25: I didn't even know who he was. I think it was his book, Chosen by God. And so I started...
16:31: I was curious as to why... There was something different, something different that I was hearing, and I was curious, and it piqued my interest.
16:39: But I continued to serve in Calvary Chapel in Tennessee as a Calvinist, and my father -in -law was very gracious to allow me to preach from the pulpit, knowing that we had...
16:50: And I think that I attribute that to his grace, his kindness. He knew me as a person. He knew that I didn't have any desire to usurp his authority, or to try to cause division.
16:59: I just wanted to preach the Word. I know that the Calvary Chapel does occasionally make exceptions with that.
17:07: For instance, Jason Lyle... I don't know if you're familiar with Jason. He is a brilliant astrophysicist and young earth creationist, and he is a thoroughgoing five -point
17:22: Calvinist and presuppositionalist and so on. And yet, he is huge amongst
17:31: Calvary Chapels. I'm assuming they know his theological position. Yeah, I'm assuming.
17:36: And Alistair Begg has always been a favorite amongst Calvary Chapel folks.
17:42: I don't know if his recent horrible advice to the grandmother to attend a same -sex wedding, so -called, has changed that at all, but he was huge amongst
17:56: Calvary Chapels. Yeah, I remember. No, I was just going to say, but sometimes men have lost their ministries because they became
18:05: Calvinists and got thrown out of Calvary Chapel. Even though Calvary Chapel's leadership claims not to be a denomination or to take official positions known as Arminianism and so on, they still get very often furious with somebody who becomes a
18:26: Calvinist. But anyway, I interrupted you. No, that's okay. And I think like most denominations or networks, you're going to find different flavors of that depending on the leadership and the ministry itself.
18:39: And I found myself in the midst of a time frame when there were actual emails going out across the nation to Calvary Chapels saying, if you have any
18:54: Reformed younger men in your church aspiring to eldership, make sure you don't allow them to be part of that.
19:00: And so here I am an aspiring pastor, and I'm in a church with my family, really, serving alongside my in -laws.
19:10: My father -in -law was a pastor there, and I don't believe he stood for that. So I got to see the kindness of one side, and then
19:19: I got to see what seemed very irrational and unbiblical from another side. And most all of my blood family on my wife's side, and it's not my blood family, but my wife's side,
19:30: I have several in -laws who are pastors, and all of them are Calvary Chapel pastors. I'm like the one that got away.
19:38: But I love them all. They're great. They're gracious. They love. And when I tell this story, and I tell this in my book, and oftentimes people ask me this, is
19:47: I attribute God's providence brought me to Calvary Chapel and gave me a love for expository preaching.
19:55: I would not have had that without what I experienced there. And I'm grateful for that.
20:00: I shifted and drifted to a more Calvinistic doctrines of grace view that is continuing.
20:06: I love it. I love where God has brought me, and the family that He's brought me to, and the networks that I'm now a part of.
20:12: But I do, and though I may not align in a conversation with a
20:17: Calvary brother on everything, I have spoken at Calvary Chapel conferences here in the state of Maine, a men's conference, and I'm grateful for that platform to just be able to bring
20:26: God's word. And by the way, nothing I said was intended to vilify or cast discursion on Calvary Chapels.
20:33: I have friends who are Calvary Chapel ministers and members, and I just obviously am heartbroken when
20:41: I hear men from that movement vilify Calvinism, typically totally misunderstanding it and vilifying a
20:54: Calvinism that is a figment of anti -Calvinist imagination. But I know that there are many good people.
21:04: And it's interesting how when a ministry is very
21:09: Bible -focused, very often people who are a part of it wind up believing in the doctrines of sovereign grace.
21:18: Because if you are involved in expository preaching, unless you're cheating and jumping over things, like we're going to skip
21:27: Romans 9 today and move on. Yeah, right. But for instance, there have been many men that I have met and interviewed who are today
21:40: Reformed Baptists or even conservative Presbyterians who were educated at Bob Jones University back in the day when they were vehemently anti -Calvinist.
21:52: I don't think that they are today. There may be some on the faculty who still are, but back in the day when you could even be kicked out for being vocal about your views on Calvinism, because Bob Jones has a history of being very
22:16: Biblically focused. So if you want to say it backfired on them because of that, because people become believers in sovereign grace, that's just an interesting phenomenon.
22:28: Absolutely. You know, it's one thing to disagree with Calvinism. It's another thing to sort of hunt them down.
22:35: And my earliest recollection of the phrase Calvinism was from the library or the bookstore at the
22:44: Calvary Chapel. And it was a book by Dave Hunt. I don't know if you remember Dave Hunt out on the West Coast. And it was a book on how to debate a
22:49: Calvinist. And so my earliest recollection was that Calvinism was dangerous. It was basically taught as such.
22:58: And I remember a friend of mine who is now a Calvinist and actually lives down in PA. He was the one that first introduced me to R .C.
23:05: Sproul. But prior to his sort of coming into that understanding, I remember catching wind of a friend that had become a
23:13: Calvinist. And I was at this brother's house having dinner. And I said, hey, I heard so -and -so is a
23:18: Calvinist. Let's pray for him. And that was really my position.
23:24: I was thoroughly concerned because of the upbringing that I was given. I was concerned for this person's soul.
23:31: And to see now I've come really at 180 to understand the grace, the sweetness, the wonderful understanding of God's amazing grace to elect and save sinners who do not deserve it.
23:44: And I don't know if you're aware, my very dear longtime friend, Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, contributed to a book with Dave Hunt where they took sides on Calvinism.
23:57: OK, so that so you so Dave Hunt was once so who was on whose side? They once agreed? No, no, they never agreed.
24:04: Other than on the very basic teachings of the
24:10: New Testament. But what I mean is they contributed on a book in a book where they both took opposite sides.
24:18: Oh, I see. I think it might have even been called debating Calvinism. I'll look it up. It might it might be that one.
24:23: Yeah. And I probably had a pretty negative view of James White at the time. And now and now
24:31: I've come, I probably agree a lot with James on a lot of different things, including the doctrines of grace.
24:39: And when in your life and how in your life. And by the way,
24:45: I just looked it up. It is called debating Calvinism. Oh, wait a minute. Yeah, yeah, that's it.
24:51: Debating Calvinism. Five points, two views by Dave Hunt and James White.
24:57: By the way, we both we both know now Dave Hunt is a five point Calvinist. Since he's in heaven.
25:05: But so when and how in your life did you realize that God had placed the calling upon your life to enter into pastoral ministry?
25:14: You know, this kind of comes into the story in the book a little bit. You know, in Calvary Chapel, I was teaching youth, the youth teaching
25:22: God's word. And really, it began at about 20 years old as I was starting to teach
25:28: God's word, but wasn't didn't really wasn't really given a whole lot of training other than to watch other guys do it.
25:36: And and then just over time, I believe the Lord shifted my my desire from just being involved with youth to really wanted to be involved actively in starting a church or planting a church.
25:47: And I wasn't sure what that looked like. But I think God's just given me a heart to shepherd and shepherd with God's word.
25:54: And if I were to put a time on it, I'd say probably about 2008 or so. I remember my daughter, my older daughter being born, and we had moved to a southern part of the state of Maine with another one of my brother in laws who was planting a church.
26:08: So I've had a few opportunities to be involved with church plants. I even attempted one church plant that failed.
26:15: I tried to plant a church in a little city called Sanford, Maine. And that just goes to show that I had the desire to do it, but not the training or the understanding of what it was like.
26:25: I had to I was greatly humiliated sitting through several Saturday evening what
26:32: I hoped would be at least a Bible study with nobody showing up. I thought I had all the right formulas to for people to come in, but I didn't really understand pastoring.
26:40: I didn't understand the other components biblically that should be a part of being sent from a local church.
26:47: Those those things I've come to understand, thankfully, now. So, yes, I actually planted a church once, and even though I was the only member,
26:57: I was excommunicated. So it was kind of an interesting. But we are going to our first commercial break right now.
27:07: If anybody would like to join us with a question of your own, our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.
27:13: C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence.
27:22: If you live outside the USA, only remain anonymous. If your question involves a personal and private matter, don't go away.
27:29: We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors. I'm Pastor Keith Allen of Linbrook Baptist Church, a
27:54: Christ -centered, gospel -driven church looking to spread the gospel in the southwest portion of Long Island, New York, and play our role in fulfilling the
28:02: Great Commission, supporting and sending for the spread of the gospel to the ends of the earth. We're delighted to be a part of Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron radio advertising family.
28:13: At Linbrook Baptist Church, we believe the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to be the inspired
28:18: Word of God, inerrant in the original writings, complete as the revelation of God's will for salvation and the supreme and final authority in all matters to which they speak.
28:30: We believe in salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. This salvation is based upon the sovereign grace of God, was purchased by Christ on the cross, and is received through faith alone, apart from any human merit, works, or ritual.
28:47: Salvation in Christ also results in righteous living, good works, and appropriate respect and concern for all who bear
28:55: God's image. If you live near Linbrook, Long Island, or if you're just passing through on the
29:00: Lord's Day, we'd love to have you come and join us in worship. For details, visit linbrookbaptist .org.
29:07: That's l -y -n -brookbaptist .org. This is Pastor Keith Allen of Linbrook Baptist Church reminding you that by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves.
29:19: It is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
29:25: The Lord bless you in the knowledge of himself. Hello, I'm Phil Johnson, Executive Director of Grace to You with John MacArthur.
29:33: I've been a frequent guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I highly recommend this show, but today
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30:40: I'm Pastor Bill Shishko of the Haven, an Orthodox Presbyterian church in Comac, Long Island.
30:46: I hold the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio program hosted by my long -time friend and brother,
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33:01: But today, I want to introduce you to my senior pastor, Doug McMasters of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island.
33:14: Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur.
33:21: In the film Chariots of Fire, the Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt
33:27: God's pleasure when he ran. He knew his efforts sprang from the gifts and calling of God.
33:33: I sense that same God -given pleasure when ministering the word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for God.
33:41: That love starts with the wonderful news that the Lord Jesus Christ is a Savior who died for sinners, and that God forgives all who come to Him in repentance, trusting solely in Christ to deliver them.
33:53: I would be delighted to have the honor and privilege of ministering to you if you live in the Long Island area or Queens or Brooklyn or the
34:00: Bronx in New York City. For details on New High Park Baptist Church, visit nhpbc .com.
34:09: That's nhpbc .com. You can also call us at 516 -352 -9672.
34:19: That's 516 -352 -9672. That's New High Park Baptist Church, a congregation in love with each other, passionate for Christ, committed to learning and being shaped by God's word, and delighting in the gospel of God's sovereign grace.
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38:37: Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We are now back with Pastor Joel Littlefield, and we are discussing his book,
38:44: The Kingdom -Minded Pastor, How Pastoral Partnership Advances the Kingdom. I just want to read a commendation for this book by a friend of mine for many years,
38:54: Dr. Joel R. Beeke, Chancellor at Puritan Reform Theological Seminary in Grand Rapids, Michigan, who was just very recently my
39:03: Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pastor's Luncheon speaker. Dr.
39:09: Beeke says that Pastor Littlefield's book offers practical guidance for creating healthy,
39:17: Christ -centered, and edifying pastoral coalitions. May the
39:22: Irenic spirit of which Littlefield speaks prevail in our day for the sake of Christ and his kingdom.
39:28: Very powerful endorsement by a very powerful brother in Christ in the church.
39:34: But first of all, can you tell us, because there are, it seems, different definitions, even amongst
39:44: Christians, about what exactly is meant by the kingdom? What is this kingdom that should be involved in a kingdom -minded pastor?
39:56: Great question. Yeah, so the kingdom, I would say, is the rule of Christ, where Christ's rule is present, and we believe that that is here on this earth.
40:06: He's ruling and reigning through his church. His plan is being fulfilled sovereignly. And when you come to the perspective of the pastor, that has to be understood if we are to keep ourself from sectarianism, divisions, territorialism, these things.
40:25: We understand that where Christ is ruling and reigning in his church, that there are other pastors besides ourselves that are doing the work of the kingdom, preaching the gospel, making disciples, calling people to come to the side of the kingdom, renounce darkness, and come and follow and serve
40:41: Christ, the King. But we're doing that together. So in the context of pastoral leadership, that's really what
40:48: I'm getting at, is that you're not alone. We're in this together. You're not the only pastor, and that's a good thing, because God is accomplishing his work through all sorts of people all over the world, and we should link arms with those people in a like -minded manner and accomplish the work that God has called us to do.
41:07: Yeah, what you said is very refreshing to hear because, as you likely know, people from our theological circles, nicknamed
41:17: Reformed, Calvinist, Doctrines of Sovereign Grace, men in our circles, because of a very good and rightful desire to preserve theological and doctrinal purity and accuracy, sometimes that very good thing, because we're all sinners, can turn into an ugly thing where people become very divisive and sectarian and turn the doctrines of grace, which are intended by God to humble men and exalt
41:58: God, sometimes in the hands of sinful men. These teachings are ironically used to exalt the pride of men, and they become overly micromanaging, if you will, in the theology of others to the point where they want no fellowship with people that disagree with them on secondary and tertiary things, even things that we would consider important but not worthy of being raised to the level of disfellowshipping people over and so on.
42:37: But a very good, healthy, refreshing attitude you revealed here, and other than what
42:45: I just mentioned, what was the prevailing thing, or things plural, that you witnessed lacking in the church that provoked you, compelled you to say, you know,
42:59: I've got to write a book about this? Yeah. Well, you know, Maine is a state that I think is generally, even geographically, sort of disconnected from the rest of the country, and people tend to sort of follow suit up here in this cold corner of our country, and that's very, it's amplified in the life of a pastor,
43:21: I believe, because not only now do you have yourself in a state that is liberal, that is dark spiritually, but then you have, as a pastor, the spiritual load and burden of being a pastor, and so witnessing that when coming back to Maine and seeking to plant a church, what
43:38: I noticed was a large amount of isolated pastors, not really linked together, not really friendly with each other, maybe a pastor's breakfast here and there, but not a lot of healthy partnership.
43:52: When I began to pull together what has now become a coalition of pastors, you know,
44:00: I just started to see the refreshing nature of it. Pastors like -minded together, caring for one another, strengthening one another, talking about each other's souls, the health of our shepherding, the state of our churches, what can we do to grow and be better in our call, and it seems to be something that is lacking in Maine, but I also don't,
44:24: I don't doubt that it's lacking all over the place, and that's the sense that I've been getting as people are reading and commenting on these things.
44:32: You know, so isolation, lonely pastors, a lot of depression, a lot of depressed pastors and stagnant ministries, ministries that have pastors that, let's say, don't embrace the plurality of eldership, or they want to, but they can't because their ministry model just doesn't favor it, so they're fighting uphill battles, they're revitalizing a church and trying to see healthy things happen, and what
44:56: I witnessed was year after year after year of the same testimony of, you know, I just want to see this change, but how long, you know, how long, five, six, ten, twenty years of unhealthy leadership, and I think one of the things that needs to happen with those particular pastors is they need other pastors around them to help them and to strengthen them and encourage them, maybe to help them through some of those decisions of, hey,
45:19: I've got a deacon team, they all think they're elders, and they think they're my boss, all right, so how do you work through that change, because there's churches like that all over the state of Maine, and a lot of them are dying, and their doors are going to close, so ministries that are stagnant, unhealthy leadership models, burdens that people are bearing, and then you just, what
45:40: I tend to see is a lack of intentionality, and so when pastors come together and discuss these ideas of what it means to be a biblical shepherd, and what does it mean to preach the word, what is expository preaching, how's your prayer life, and you talk about those things, well, you sharpen each other, and then you help each other be equipped for then making your churches healthier.
46:02: Now, I really do, I do believe that. I believe that the healthier the pastor, the more in line he is, the better the chance of that church becoming healthy in a way that is according to Scripture.
46:14: So, and iron sharpens iron just seems to make sense to be talking about this, doesn't it, brother? Yes, amen. If you could just in more detail describe the religious climate in which you serve in Maine.
46:27: I know that New England at one time was a bastion of biblical truth, where the
46:34: Puritans reigned, and unfortunately, tragically, ironically, many of those churches planted by the
46:42: Puritans, which are now in the hands of one of the most apostate denominations, the
46:48: United Church of Christ, typically going by the name Congregationalist, which of course, not every church that has that on their sign,
46:57: Congregationalist, means that they're a part of that apostate denomination. But what is the biggest rival to a biblically faithful church there, and, you know, more prevalent enemy to the gospel in Christ's true church?
47:15: There are a lot of enemies, I would say, to the good preaching of the true gospel.
47:22: It's probably, in my town most prominently, a mix between a
47:27: New Age religion and Universalist Congregationalist, like you're speaking about.
47:34: Ironically, New City Church has been leasing a building for the last four and a half years from a church that was built as a
47:43: Universalist Congregational Church, United Church of Christ. Wow. Yeah, it's no longer that. That church was built in the 70s.
47:50: They shrunk out of it and established a smaller building in the middle of our city in which they feed a lot of homeless people.
47:58: They're very active in the community in that manner. But, you know, staunchly heretical and opposed to the gospel, but we've been renting their building.
48:06: So it is very ironic that that is the state of what Maine used to be like, with a lot of reformers like Isaac Case, who
48:13: I talk about in the book, was predominantly preaching Baptist, Calvinistic theology, good, solid teaching in a state that was overrun with Universalism and Congregationalism, the bad
48:23: Congregationalism. So that's generally what we find, is people that are very much a works -based religion or mixed with a
48:35: New Age understanding of Christ, that Jesus is just a guru. He's just a good man, maybe a good teacher.
48:42: But what you need is spirituality. You don't need Christ or repentance from sin.
48:49: And so it goes from that to an extreme hatred of Christ, honestly, not even just trying to be religious, but an opposition to the gospel and a lot of Satanism.
48:59: A lot of Satanism. Yeah, you know, we bring missions teams here early on in the church plant, and it was very remarkable for people to comment on.
49:07: You know, they'd go into the city and, you know, seek to evangelize. And sometimes you'd find friendly people. But the further south you go to the
49:14: Portland area, Portland, Maine, is very, very dark. We're about 30 minutes from Portland. And nearly every storefront through the downtown portion of Portland is full of pagan images, a lot of Buddhism, New Age religion, and it's very much opposed to the gospel of Jesus.
49:30: Now, I remember years ago seeing a leader in one of the satanic church sects because they're not all the same thing.
49:43: And he he said that he was thrilled with the growing popularity.
49:51: This was back in the 80s, I think, you know, the growing popularity of the New Age movement, because he said, that's really
49:57: Satanism. We don't worship Satan. We worship ourselves. Is that real? Is that really the mindset there?
50:03: Or do you have a mixture of people who actually worship Satan? Because the Satanist that I just referred to, he doesn't believe.
50:10: And from what I understand, Anton LaVey and many of the more well -known Satanists of the past or present, they don't even believe
50:19: Satan exists. But they use that as their symbol for pride and licentiousness, sexual freedom to do anything you want, that kind of thing.
50:36: What's the idea behind Satanism there, if you've explored that at all? Yeah, well,
50:42: I mean, I think it's a mix. You will run into people that would call themselves Satanists, but I wouldn't say it's classic
50:48: Luciferianism, you know, where you have Freemasonry, where they would claim, no, actually, Lucifer, he does exist, and he is
50:56: God. And I think you're making a good distinction there. So it would probably be predominantly New Age, the worship of self as opposed to the worship of Satan.
51:05: Interestingly enough, we have seen, though, a rise in salvations even in our church.
51:11: Now, we're not seeing, you know, dozens saved weekly, but the last, I could tell you, the last couple of stories of those who have been drawn to Christ and saved are people that have been saved out of the
51:20: New Age movement and completely radically changed from the worship of self, very ritualistic yoga,
51:28: New Age practices, to now trusting in Jesus. And so in this city, which is only about 9 ,000 people in our little community,
51:39: God is saving people and plugging them into good, healthy churches. The sad part is, the predominant number of churches in our community are not teaching the true gospel.
51:50: So what we find is that people, they come to our church, and they say, well, we've already tried four or five churches, and they're not teaching the
51:57: Scriptures. And so thank God that they're coming, they're finding us. Praise the Lord.
52:03: Praise God. Well, people may be scratching their heads. Wait a minute, he said something bad about yoga.
52:08: I have become so limber through my stretching every morning using yoga. A lot of people don't even realize that those yoga poses are positions of worship in pagan idolatry.
52:23: That's right, exactly. Yeah, so we have a mix of all of those things. That's sort of what we're up against, but, you know,
52:29: I don't want to speak too pessimistically about it. Those are the predominant views as a liberal state. The Lord is at work.
52:35: We are seeing God. There's a lot of fruit. God is saving lives. Before we go to our midway break,
52:42: I'm going to read a question to you, and then have you answer it when we come back.
52:49: This will give you time to think about it. This is from Anthony, or as my Italian friends on Long Island, New York would say,
52:56: Anthony. Anthony from Hoshton, Georgia. As your ministry has grown and your study of Scripture increased, at what point did the whole concept of the gospel of the kingdom enter into your thoughts and get on your radar theologically?
53:16: Do you see it more along the line of what Dr. Joe Boot speaks of in his
53:21: Mission of God book and other writings? Has this shifted your biblical worldview and vision of ministry?
53:27: Does your book address this? We'll have you address that when we return from our midway break. Please try to respond to as many of our advertisers as you can, because keep in mind that the funding that comes from our advertisers is absolutely essential for us existing.
53:46: So try to respond to as many of our advertisers as you can. And of course, send in your questions for Joel Littlefield to chrisorenson at gmail .com.
53:54: Give us the first name at least, city and state, and country of residence. Don't go away. We'll be right back. When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the
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57:28: We teach families to worship together as families. Puritan is committed to teaching the whole counsel of God so that the earth will be filled with the knowledge of God as the waters cover the sea.
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58:49: Reformed guests that Chris Arnzen has on the show. Truth is so hard to come by these days, so don't waste your time with fluff or fake news.
58:57: Subscribe to the Iron Sharpens Iron radio podcast right now. And while you're at it, you can also sign up for the
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59:27: And finally, if you're looking to worship in a Reformed church that holds to the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, please join us at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, New York.
59:37: Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Invidio, and thanks for listening. of the
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01:03:53: If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some
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01:12:28: Last but not least, if you're not a member of a Christ -honoring, biblically faithful, theologically sound, doctrinally solid church like New City Church in Bath, Maine, I have extensive lists spanning the entire globe of biblically faithful churches and have helped many people in our audience all over the planet
01:12:47: Earth find churches that are biblically faithful, sometimes even just a couple of minutes from where they live. So, no matter where on the
01:12:54: Earth you live, please, if you are without a church home that's biblically faithful, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com,
01:13:03: chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put I need a church in the subject line, and I'll do my best to help you find a church that is biblically faithful.
01:13:15: And that's also the same address where you can send in a question to my guest today,
01:13:20: Joel Littlefield, chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence.
01:13:27: Before I go to that question from Hoshton, Georgia, from Anthony, tell us about this conference.
01:13:36: I want to make sure that we don't forget or I don't forget to mention the conference, the
01:13:42: Feed My Sheep conference that you are orchestrating. Yeah, we'd love to have people come.
01:13:48: This is our fourth year hosting the Feed My Sheep conference. New City Church is a part of the
01:13:54: Pillar Network. Pillar Network is a Reformed network that fits within the
01:14:00: SPC family, but it's a solidly Reformed, wonderful group of churches, and they began doing
01:14:06: Feed My Sheep conferences several years ago. I picked up on it and started offering one in Maine, and it's a day for pastors, leaders, pastors' wives to come and sit under the faithful teaching of God's Word.
01:14:17: There's usually a great theme that we sort of center the teaching around, and this year it is biblical authority. And we've got
01:14:23: Jonathan Lehman is going to be coming. He'll be speaking, and then Sean DeMars, which some of you might know from the
01:14:28: American Gospel Part One film. Sean DeMars was one of the testimonies there. He'll be speaking, and then
01:14:34: I'll be sharing as well. And so a day of teaching. We love food, good fellowship, really good resources.
01:14:40: Just actually heard an email while we were on the break from Banner. Banner is going to be offering some books to give away.
01:14:47: We'll see what we can have there for resources, because I know pastors like leaving conferences with great books.
01:14:53: But you can register on the link on my Facebook page or on New City Church's page.
01:14:59: I'm not sure, Chris, if you have a link that you're able to share. Registration is $35.
01:15:05: It's a pretty decent price for a day of just solid preaching. So we'd love to have anybody in the New England area, especially
01:15:10: Maine, if you're a pastor, come visit us on that day, September 21st.
01:15:15: And repeat that website again? Yeah. So let me see here. Yep. So we have the registration page up through our planning center online.
01:15:27: Let me just grab that here really quick. And while you're doing that, I'm going to remind our listeners of our email address, if you have a question.
01:15:33: ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. As always, give us your city and state and country of residence if you live outside of the
01:15:43: USA. Yeah. So the best thing that I could say would be to go on to Facebook to Feed My Sheep Maine, go to that page, and you'll find everything you can there for the registration links.
01:15:55: It's a long, funky website. I wouldn't want to give that. But that's the best way. Feed My Sheep Maine is the Facebook page that you can find, and all the information will be there for registering.
01:16:04: Great. Well, going back to our listener in Hoshton, Georgia—and I hope
01:16:11: I'm pronouncing that correctly—Anthony, I will repeat the question, since it's been quite a while since I read it to you.
01:16:19: As your ministry has grown and your study of Scripture increased, at what point did the whole concept of the gospel of the kingdom enter into your thoughts and get on your radar theologically?
01:16:33: Do you see it more along the line of what Dr. Joe Boot speaks of in his
01:16:39: Mission of God book and other writings? Has this shifted your biblical worldview and vision of ministry?
01:16:46: Does your book address this? That's a great question. Truth be told, while we were on break,
01:16:53: I ordered Joe Boot's book, and I will be reading that. Wow. He'll be happy to hear that.
01:17:01: He is my next pastor's luncheon speaker. Is he really? Okay, that's great.
01:17:06: You know, the name was familiar. I hadn't read his book yet, but I see he's now sort of in a camp of a lot of people that I have a lot of respect for.
01:17:14: And to answer Anthony's question, the theology of the kingdom, as I currently see it, is something that has also grown along with the doctrines of grace.
01:17:25: About three years ago, I preached through Daniel and began seeing the gospel of the kingdom and the theology of the kingdom through the lens of a post -millennial view.
01:17:36: And that's probably, I'm assuming, what you're referring to in terms of thinking of the kingdom in an optimistic worldview, and that is absolutely where I would land eschatologically at this time.
01:17:49: So I'm really looking forward to reading a 600 -page book by Joseph Boot. You could definitely use that hardback as a murder weapon.
01:17:56: I have that book, and it is enormous and worth every page.
01:18:02: Wonderful. So it is mentioned in my book. Of course, this is not a very theologically rich book.
01:18:09: It's a very practical book that I've written. But there is a chapter on a kingdom vision where I set the stage for pastors to think about their mission with a kingdom view.
01:18:20: I'm not necessarily trying to convince pastors to become post -millennial in their view.
01:18:26: I understand there's going to be a lot of those views around the table in a pastor's meeting. That's certainly not the aim. But I would say there's a portion of a scripture that really ministered to me and caused me to think about my ministry different, and that would be
01:18:39: Matthew 13 and 31 and 32, which you would all know is the parable of the mustard seed. And as I began to think about the parable of the mustard seed and seeing the eventual, overwhelming success of God's kingdom work here on this earth, it definitely has changed my view as a pastor in the sense that I do not see the world as wholly in a pessimistic view of all of our work as pastors is going to fail, but that our work is going to succeed in light of the great commission and the promise of God to turn that mustard seed into a tree that overtakes the whole garden.
01:19:17: I'll just read something really briefly from the chapter, and you'll see how this has made application to pastors.
01:19:26: And it's a subtitle, subheading called Small Can Be Discouraging. The often small and seemingly insignificant nature of kingdom work can be discouraging.
01:19:35: It has discouraged me at times in my ministry. Near the end of time, when the gospel has covered the whole earth and all the nations have been discipled, the parable of the mustard seed will be fully understood.
01:19:47: But God allows us to see smaller fulfillments of these kingdom principles to remind us that Jesus's words are true.
01:19:54: Our perseverance is not wasted. And that's after just giving a basic summary, really, of how
01:19:59: I see that mustard seed parable taking shape, that the devil is not winning. God is winning.
01:20:04: God is enthroned. And that view of the kingdom absolutely does shape why I really want to see these pastors coalitions come together, because God has called us to a successful winning kingdom work.
01:20:19: And I'm grateful to be a part of that. So hopefully that answers your question. I look forward to reading that book, so thanks for that suggestion.
01:20:25: Great. Well, guess what, Antony? Because of the generosity of my friend
01:20:32: Donnie Morrison over at Christian Focus Publishing, you will receive a free copy of the book we are addressing by my guest today,
01:20:45: The Kingdom -Minded Pastor. Make sure you give us your full mailing address in Hoshton, Georgia.
01:20:52: And by the way, let me say at the outset that Christian Focus Publications has been generous enough to give us a limited number of copies of Joel Littlefield's book.
01:21:04: If you already have it, please let us know so that we could bless someone else with it.
01:21:10: And also, every time we get here from a first -time questioner, not only will you receive this book, but you will receive on top of that a new
01:21:23: New American Standard Bible, which we always give to first -time questioners on Iron Radio.
01:21:29: So thank you, Antony, for the great questions. We have
01:21:35: Mike in Brunswick, Maine. How would you counsel a person who is moving away from Calvinist theology and, as he writes it, toward Armenian theology?
01:21:49: I'm assuming that Armenian theology involves rice pilaf, specialty of the
01:21:55: Armenians. But Armenian—just to let our listener know, and this might have been a typo—Armenian is an ethnicity, and Arminian is a theology.
01:22:04: There we go. There we go. Good clarification. Very good question. Excellent question, because it does happen.
01:22:12: But this is interesting. I don't know if you've experienced or witnessed this almost every single time, with very few exceptions, at least in my own personal experience.
01:22:25: Most people who depart from Calvinism do not become evangelical
01:22:32: Armenians. They become apostates and become
01:22:37: Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, or they become—they just abandon the faith.
01:22:44: Very rarely have I ever witnessed a thoroughly
01:22:49: Reformed Christian becoming an Arminian—I almost said it myself—an
01:22:55: Arminian evangelical. I don't know. Would you say the same thing in your own experience?
01:23:04: Yeah. I mean, yeah, I've certainly not experienced, personally. I only know of a couple names that I know.
01:23:11: I don't know if they're fully Arminian, but I know we have ministries like Soteriology 101 and Leighton Flowers and that guy.
01:23:19: Yeah. Sometimes when people like Leighton say they were Calvinists, I don't know how real, thorough, and how long they were actually believing in the doctrines of grace.
01:23:29: You know, I usually—what I would do, how I would answer Mike—and Mike, I don't know if I know you personally or not, but you only live about 15 minutes from our church, if you're in Brunswick, Maine.
01:23:37: Oh, wow. So, if you need a healthy church, but I'm happy to answer this question. I think that what
01:23:43: I generally try to do is just define terms. What does that person believe that they're actually leaving?
01:23:50: You might find that what they're—or I often find in those conversations that what they think they're leaving is actually not the doctrines of grace that I hold to.
01:23:58: It's not Reformed Puritan theology. It's not the robust gospel witness that we read from the
01:24:06: Puritans and the Reformers, and guys like Charles Spurgeon. And so, you got to define the terms.
01:24:11: They might just say they're leaving a religion that believes that God has ordained humans to be like robots.
01:24:18: You know, some of those very just kind of cliche arguments against Calvinism that isn't really
01:24:24: Calvinism. So, you need to define those terms and find out if they're understanding what you mean.
01:24:33: If you're a Calvinist, lay that out. What are the five points? Take them to Scripture.
01:24:38: You're not trying to argue them or win them to a man. You're not trying to win them to a pet doctrine of yours.
01:24:44: If you're a Calvinist, and I am a Calvinist, I believe it's the best representation and the clearest understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
01:24:54: And so, what I'm going to be doing at the end of the day is arguing Scripture. Arguing Scripture and pointing them to the gospel.
01:25:00: You know what? If they're going to leave Calvinism, yeah, I would try to get them into a good solid church.
01:25:06: Like Chris was saying, you know, what are they actually leaving to? Where are they going? And I, you know, you might want to be more concerned than them leaving
01:25:13: Calvinism, more concerned that they're leaving the gospel if they're rebelling against such,
01:25:19: I would say, clear truths of God's grace. A lot of patience. And sometimes people who are in horrible congregations with horrible leaders that happen to identify as Calvinist are leaving for that reason.
01:25:34: And I have come to a point in my life where if it boiled down to my only options to join a church with absolutely abysmal leadership that was
01:25:48: Calvinist or a church that was non -reformed, non -Calvinist, but they had shepherds with true humble hearts,
01:26:00: I would join the latter if I only had those two choices. Ideally both would exist in an alternative, but I would much more, as long as they didn't want to drive me out with a crowd of pitchfork -carrying, torch -carrying anti -Calvinists,
01:26:21: I would join the Armenian church. You know, we have membership in our church, and we don't require people to be
01:26:30: Reformed or require them to be Calvinist to be members. I don't believe that would be biblical.
01:26:35: We require them to believe the gospel. We tell them that our distinctives are thoroughly Reformed, the elders preach from a
01:26:41: Reformed position. But we have people in our church that would not be Calvinist, and that's fine.
01:26:48: But as a pastor, Mike, I don't know if Mike's a pastor or not, you need to think in terms of a shepherd. You really want to shepherd this person's soul and really get to the heart of what the issue is and point them to Scripture.
01:26:59: That's what I'd say at the end of the day. Well, Mike, you have also won a free copy of The Kingdom -Minded
01:27:07: Pastor. If you're not a pastor, we would urge you to read it and then pass it on to your pastor. And so you must give us your full mailing address in Brunswick, Maine.
01:27:17: And if you're a first -time questioner, we will also send you a free New American Standard Bible. Well, I want to make sure before we go to our final break in about 10 minutes,
01:27:30: I want to make sure you cover some of the areas of your book that were the primary reasons you wrote it.
01:27:36: So why don't you continue on to those aspects of The Kingdom -Minded
01:27:41: Pastor that you definitely want to make sure are brought to the forefront during this conversation.
01:27:48: Absolutely. You know, the end result that I would say would be a wonderful 10 -year vision—and
01:27:53: I think I wrote this in the end of the book—is if in 10 years' time, we could see hundreds of like -minded groups of pastors meeting in their communities intentionally, aiming for the health of their soul, talking about solid theological issues, asking good questions, repentant, faithful, forming friendships, then that would be a success.
01:28:17: The practical nature of this book really does teach and give a biblical basis for why pastors who, week in and week out, encourage our members to fellowship, why we also need to apply those same principles to fellowshipping with other like -minded leaders for the sake of our soul, on the sake of our churches.
01:28:38: So the big picture of why I wrote this book is I really want to see pastors meeting together all over their communities and forming these relationships.
01:28:46: A big proponent to this book was Brian Croft's ministry, Practical Shepherding. Practical Shepherding has provided material for me to walk pastors and potential pastors through, and that mindset of the shepherd's soul and the health of that soul is really what prompted me to think along these lines.
01:29:09: And so in the book, what you'll find is a lot of practical advice on what to talk about when you come together in those meetings.
01:29:16: Many of us have experienced those pastor's breakfasts where all you get is complaining. People coming together, I experienced a lot of that in COVID.
01:29:22: During COVID, I'd go to a meeting and I'd just hear pastors complaining about masks and talking about this and that, and there was no intentionality to discuss the kingdom or the relationships among us or ask about sin.
01:29:33: When was the last time you went to a pastor's meeting where there was repentance, where there was real brokenness because you're dealing with something or you have a struggle in your marriage or you're having a hard time parenting your child?
01:29:44: These issues that would be otherwise disqualifying, right? Think about the number of pastors that disqualify themselves because they didn't come to that place of repentance, and maybe they don't have elders in their church to share these things with or to keep them accountable.
01:29:58: So that's a lot of what you'll see. I outline a little bit of my story in it and the need to have a kingdom mission, a mission that leads to multiplication, that in our minds as pastors, we need to be thinking about multiplying at every level in our church.
01:30:12: Disciple making, multiplying ourselves as leaders, and then ultimately that at some point,
01:30:18: I believe churches need to plant churches. I think we need to follow that model of planting churches, sending leaders to places where the gospel needs to be.
01:30:28: And then finally, I spend the last chapter of the book looking back at a couple figures. I'm a big
01:30:33: Spurgeon fan, and so I highlight some of the reasons why Spurgeon formed his brotherhood of pastors shortly after the downgrade controversy.
01:30:43: Of course, Spurgeon lost a lot of friends. It was a horrible, trying time. He pulled out of the Baptist Union, but what he found after some time of being out of that union was that he still couldn't be by himself, and so he formed a brotherhood.
01:30:57: And this brotherhood actually formalized, and they developed documents and statements of faith.
01:31:03: Now, you may not go that far in your local meeting of pastors where you formalize and have a statement of faith, but you have to have something that you're sort of agreeing around as the basics.
01:31:13: And then another brother that I discovered not too long ago was a guy by the name of Isaac Case.
01:31:19: He was a pastor in Maine in the late 1700s, moved up from Massachusetts when he saw the desperate state of the state of Maine.
01:31:29: At the time, Maine was not very well traveled, a lot of dirt roads and horseback and hard Maine winters.
01:31:35: And here you have a guy named Isaac Case and others, Jonathan Fisher and Daniel Merrill, are three names that you'll find if you begin to kind of Google these names.
01:31:43: They're not very well written about, but they were pioneers, church planters. Isaac Case has a memorial in the city of Reedfield, Maine.
01:31:52: He is known as Maine's church planter. He was part of planting over 300 churches in the state of Maine, founding many of the
01:32:01: Baptist associations or part of finding the Baptist associations that we have in our state and personally baptized over a thousand people.
01:32:08: What you find in the late 1700s of Maine is really nothing short of a miraculous revival.
01:32:14: And these were these were solidly reformed. They believed in plurality of elders. They are preaching clear gospel truths, baptizing believers.
01:32:21: And so that became a real emphasis of like if that if that happened in Maine in the 1700s and here we find ourselves in a very dark hour, well, what do we need to do?
01:32:32: Well, we need to we need to follow in these guys footsteps. They didn't do it alone. They had pastoral partnerships.
01:32:38: They were associating together. And so that really drove the reason for writing this book, wanting to see that same thing happen here in our state and and really everywhere.
01:32:48: All right. We have time before we go to the break for one more question. We have
01:32:55: Wynn, W -Y -N -N, in Halesite, Long Island, New York, who wants to know, are you a member of a fraternal or a group of like -minded pastors or churches?
01:33:12: Absolutely. Yes, I am. Yeah. Yeah. So we're you know, we call it a coalition. It's a group of pastors here in the in the state of Maine.
01:33:20: We call it the Isaac Case Coalition. And it's a group of, I'd say, 14 to 15 pastors now that would all that are all like -minded.
01:33:29: We meet monthly to discuss serious topics of theology, how our churches are doing, helping each other grow.
01:33:37: Those those friendships are developing. There's a lot of work still left to do. But I think that at the point that we become greater friends, that's
01:33:45: I think we'll need another benchmark in what a coalition can be. But in terms of a church network, we're part of the pillar network.
01:33:52: Larger tent would be the Southern Baptist Convention. And but that local coalition or fraternity is the
01:33:59: Isaac Case Coalition. And so absolutely, yes. Now, one thing that I have witnessed,
01:34:06: I am a very strong advocate of parachurch fellowships.
01:34:15: Some of the some of those organizations don't like the term parachurch. But if it's not specifically governed by a local church elder board,
01:34:26: I think it is a parachurch. But I agree wholeheartedly with like -minded men theologically joining and even forming these kinds of groups, these kinds of coalitions or councils or organizations.
01:34:47: I'm not a fan of denominationalism where you have a hierarchy outside of your local elders that can dictate to your church what it has to do.
01:34:59: That I'm opposed to. I think it has always proven to of eventually wind up in abysmal failure.
01:35:08: And the exact opposite of what they intend to do is their intention in denominations is to preserve the theology of a group.
01:35:18: And then it winds up, you know, when the top is corrupted, it trickles down.
01:35:25: But as much as I am in favor of groups, like -minded groups that are coalitions of like -minded pastors,
01:35:38: I think sometimes when those organizations are created, the pastors become totally disinterested in any kind of fellowship with pastors outside of the group.
01:35:54: And I believe that that can be unhealthy. I have over my lifetime,
01:36:04: I was saved in the mid -80s, have always been a member, after my salvation, of a
01:36:09: Reformed Baptist church. But sometimes during the course of those decades,
01:36:16: I have been very blessed by the friendships I've developed with Arminians, with charismatic pastors,
01:36:24: Pentecostal pastors. I'm not talking about the lunatics out there and the total heretics.
01:36:30: But there are men that may be very wrong in some areas that we cherish as Calvinists, but who may be superior to anyone we know in other areas, especially in the actual activity of their lives.
01:36:50: So don't you think there needs to be a balance when it comes to things like those coalitions?
01:36:57: Yeah, absolutely. And I think it has to do with the mindset, the heart, and the motivation going into forming the coalition, as opposed to a network of churches.
01:37:07: If this is about the health of the pastor's heart, his soul, his ministry, his life, if you're thinking about his family, if you're thinking about his children, you're thinking about his disciplines, and you're there in that group, not thinking about yourself so much, but thinking what you can do to serve other pastors and help them grow.
01:37:26: I think that keeps us from just being sectarian. We're not forming the group in order to separate from others or segregate, but just seeing that the need is pastors aren't fellowshipping, at least in my area.
01:37:41: They're not fellowshipping. So I think that it provides that. But yeah, I think you can go so far, and I think you just have to have the right leaders.
01:37:50: There's a chapter I write on who are the people that you need to bring to the table of that coalition, and I think it's important to be intentional about that.
01:37:57: If you're the person who starts this coalition in your area or this fraternity because you don't have any, you need to be very prayerful and think through who are those first few people that you're going to call, because that group eventually does develop a culture, a vision, an understanding of what the church is.
01:38:13: And if you bring the wrong people to the table to form this coalition, it could very much turn into what you're saying,
01:38:19: Chris. But that's why we need to be intentional about this. Those first few people that you call in your city and say, hey, are you getting together with anybody?
01:38:27: Are you meeting with any pastors? Let's grab breakfast. That first meeting is so essential of who you reach out to.
01:38:34: And I lay out a few parameters on how to think through those things, some things to look forward to discern whether you're starting or whether you're going to go and join a group that you find is already meeting in your city.
01:38:45: Because, yeah, we need to be very discerning. And we have to go to our final break right now.
01:38:50: And if you have a question, send it to chrisornsen at gmail .com. Chris, oh, by the way,
01:38:55: Wynn and Hellsite Long Island, make sure we get your full mailing address because you've also won a copy of The Kingdom -Minded
01:39:00: Pastor. And a reminder to all of you, if you're not pastors, please read the book and pass it on to your pastor.
01:39:07: Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors. I'll give it a shot.
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01:41:06: It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim
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01:41:55: That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Quorum, Long Island, New York, that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.
01:42:13: Hi, this is John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona, taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the
01:42:22: Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions.
01:42:31: While always defending the key doctrines of the Christian faith, I've always been happy to point people to this podcast, knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.
01:42:42: I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised
01:42:49: Chris up for just such a time. And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.
01:42:59: I'm pleased to do so, and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting
01:43:04: Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?
01:43:13: I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com
01:43:20: where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com.
01:43:25: Music An Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005.
01:43:37: The publishers of the New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the
01:43:47: Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the
01:43:52: NASB. I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, President and Professor of Systematic and Homiletical Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylors, South Carolina, and the
01:44:03: NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Chuck White of the
01:44:09: First Trinity Lutheran Church in Tonawanda, New York, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.
01:44:15: I'm Pastor Anthony Methenia of Christ Church in Radford, Virginia, and the NASB is my
01:44:20: Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Jesse Miller of Damascus Road Christian Church in Gardnerville, Nevada, and the
01:44:27: NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Bruce Bennett of Word of Truth Church in Farmerville, Long Island, New York, and the
01:44:36: NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Rodney Brown of Metro Bible Church in Southlake, Texas, and the
01:44:45: NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Jim Harrison of Red Mills Baptist Church in Mayapac Falls, New York, and the
01:44:52: NASB is my Bible of choice. NASB .com
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01:46:00: The danger of centralized power is often represented by the word king. As Americans, we hate the word king applied to any mere man.
01:46:09: We are an armored republic, and in a republic, there is no king but Christ. Arm yourself with tools of liberty at armoredrepublic .com.
01:46:29: Chris Arnson here. I am forever grateful to Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service for their generous financial support of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, but that's not the only reason
01:46:39: I love them. CVBBS .com carries the finest in theologically reformed literature from 16th century classics like Calvin's Institutes, 17th and 18th century
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01:47:59: This is Brian McLaughlin, president of the SecureComm Group and supporter of Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio program.
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01:48:20: We can be reached at securecommgroup .com. That's securecommgroup .com.
01:48:28: But today, I want to introduce you to my senior pastor, Doug McMasters of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island.
01:48:42: Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur.
01:48:49: In the film Chariots of Fire, the Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Lebel remarked that he felt
01:48:55: God's pleasure when he ran. He knew his efforts sprang from the gifts and calling of God.
01:49:01: I sense that same God -given pleasure when ministering the word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for God.
01:49:09: That love starts with the wonderful news that the Lord Jesus Christ is a savior who died for sinners and that God forgives all who come to him in repentance, trusting solely in Christ to deliver them.
01:49:21: I would be delighted to have the honor and privilege of ministering to you if you live in Long Island, Queens, Brooklyn, or the
01:49:28: Bronx in New York City. For details on New High Park Baptist Church, visit nhpbc .com.
01:49:37: That's nhpbc .com. You can also call us at 516 -352 -9672.
01:49:54: That's 516 -352 -9672.
01:50:30: Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Reilly, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener here in Atai in County Kildare, Ireland.
01:50:38: Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is
01:50:44: Dr. Joe Moorcraft. If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron radio, Dr. Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia are largely to thank since they are one of the program's financial supporters.
01:50:56: Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.
01:51:03: Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards, and Dr.
01:51:08: Joe Moorcraft is the author of an eight volume commentary on the larger catechism. Heritage is a member of the
01:51:13: Hanover Presbytery, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone, and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great
01:51:23: Protestant Reformation of the 16th century. Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the reformers, scripture alone, grace alone, faith alone,
01:51:34: Christ alone, and God's glory alone. Their primary goal is the worship of the triune God that continues in eternity.
01:51:40: For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com.
01:51:47: That's 678 -954 -7831.
01:51:58: If you visit, tell them Joe Reilly, an Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener from Attawai in County Kildare, Ireland, sends you.
01:52:07: Welcome back, folks. Also, please never forget that this program is paid for in part by my longtime, very dear friend,
01:52:16: Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law of the law firm Buttafuoco and Associates.
01:52:21: If you're the victim of a very serious personal injury or medical malpractice anywhere in the
01:52:27: United States, call Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law, at 1 -800 -NOW -HURT, 1 -800 -NOW -HURT, or visit his website, 1 -800 -NOW -HURT .com,
01:52:38: 1 -800 -NOW -HURT .com. Make sure you tell Dan that you heard about his law firm,
01:52:44: Buttafuoco and Associates, from Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron radio. We have a question from Pierce in Holyoke, Massachusetts.
01:52:56: Other than your own book, what are your favorite books that have helped guide you in your pastoral ministry that you can recommend?
01:53:04: Wow, that's great. One recently that's very encouraging to me as a pastor is
01:53:12: Spurgeon's Only a Prayer Meeting. It's a wonderful book that challenges sort of the status quo of churches whose prayer meeting is the least attended.
01:53:24: So he kind of takes that phrase of this is only a prayer meeting and Spurgeon really has challenged me in thinking through how to try to encourage our church to pray.
01:53:33: That's one I'd say I really have dove a lot into some of Practical Shepherding's books by Brian Croft.
01:53:42: Those have been great. I use those a lot for our pastoral internship. So the pastor's soul, the pastor's pastoral friendship.
01:53:50: If you look at Practical Shepherding's ministry, you'll see those books there. But anything Puritan related,
01:53:56: I'm a big Spurgeon fan. I'll read Spurgeon. I love systematic theology books. Let's see, anything else off the top of my head?
01:54:04: I'd say the first—I'm going to just say another Spurgeon book. You need to read Soul Winner.
01:54:10: Soul Winner shaped a lot of my early love for the Church and for Reform Doctrine.
01:54:15: Lectures to My Students, I'm sure, would be one of them. Lectures to My Students is another one I'd say that very, very—you can tell
01:54:23: I'm a Spurgeon guy. But yeah, yeah, absolutely. Those would be a couple. I read a lot of Nine Marks stuff.
01:54:29: I recommend those things to our Church. But I've been trying myself to read more Puritans.
01:54:35: I just read Honor Thy Fathers. It might be a little bit out there, but it's a new book by New Christendom Press. So if you're okay with reading, you got it there?
01:54:43: He's actually—no, not yet. They're shipping it out to me. But he is scheduled to be on my show.
01:54:49: That's Zach Garris, Monday, the 12th of August. I'll make sure to listen.
01:54:55: Yeah, yeah. So I just finished that book and handed it off to another pastor. It's a really good book on biblical patriarchy and sort of how the
01:55:03: Reformers viewed that whole thing and how we should be viewing the dangers of feminism today.
01:55:10: So just a few off the top of my head that have encouraged me and that I've been looking at lately. How about The Reformed Pastor by Richard Baxter?
01:55:19: Oh yeah, that's a required reading for our Pastoral Residence. I read that a while—several years back, but an excellent book.
01:55:26: And by the way, it's really not a book about Reformed theology. Right, a lot of people are scared to pick it up because they may be
01:55:32: Arminian themselves, but he meant the Reformed, like, transformed pastor. Exactly.
01:55:38: In fact, Baxter was the only non -Calvinistic Puritan I've ever heard of.
01:55:45: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wonderful, wonderful book. Yeah, so those are a few good ones.
01:55:51: All right, and folks, as always, this may sound self -serving, but they do sponsor my show.
01:55:57: Whenever you're looking for books, first and foremost, go to the two publishers and book distributors that sponsor the show.
01:56:07: As far as a publisher, go to solid -ground -books .com. Solid -ground -books .com,
01:56:13: as far as a book distributor, go to cvbbs .com. They carry a much broader selection of books by many different publishers, as opposed to one.
01:56:25: That's cvbbs .com. Always mention that you heard about either one of them, or both of them, from Chris Arnzen of Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio.
01:56:33: Well, please, in about two minutes, summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today, before we go off the air.
01:56:41: Well, first of all, Chris, thank you for letting me be here and talk about this book. It's been a great pleasure to be able to write it.
01:56:48: My hope, really, following the theme of this book, is that pastors who are specifically serving with a sense of dreariness, loneliness, a sense of,
01:57:04: I can't go on. I think there's a lot of that around our country and around the world. I would love for you to see that there is a way forward, a way for you to be healthy as a shepherd, to grow as a shepherd, and to enhance and advance the kingdom of God through a kingdom mindset.
01:57:23: I would encourage you to pick up the book. I hope you will. I hope it's encouraging to you to sit around with a group of pastors, ask very good, probing questions that are going to affect the health of your soul and the longevity of your ministry.
01:57:36: I want to see that in my state. I believe it can happen. I believe that God has provided a means to see the world transform,
01:57:44: His kingdom advance, and that is through the local church. He has called shepherds to lead the local church.
01:57:50: I think a lot of what we want to see change in our nation and the world is going to come down to the attitude and the strength of which pastors are operating.
01:58:00: Of course, we know what is that ultimately depending on. It's depending on understanding our weakness and knowing that we need
01:58:06: Christ. He's provided these things for us. That's what I would encourage you to do. If you can do that through this 100 -page book and it helps you, then praise
01:58:15: God. That's my prayer for you. Amen. Don't forget about the important websites you need to know about.
01:58:23: First of all, let me give you one that I didn't give you earlier. It's Pastor Joel Littlefield's personal blog website, joellittlefield .com,
01:58:34: joellittlefield .com. Of course, don't forget about bathnewcity .church,
01:58:42: bathnewcity .church. If you want to read more about Joel's book,
01:58:53: The Kingdom -Minded Pastor, which has been published by my friend Donnie Morrison and Christian Focus Publications, go to christianfocus .com,
01:59:03: christianfocus .com, but you can order it here in the United States more affordably from our sponsor, cvbbs .com,
01:59:11: Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com. I want to thank you so much,
01:59:17: Joel, for doing such a superb job on the show. I want to thank everybody who listened and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives,