Radio Free San Francisco

When people talk about homosexuality, they often ask, is it a choice? The American Medical Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American Psychoanalytic Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, and the National Association of Social Workers have all stated sexual orientation is not a choice and cannot be changed.

Do you think homosexuality is a sin? I think that it's unnatural, detrimental, and ultimately destructive to so many of the foundations of civilization. It's unnatural to you, Kirk.

If you want to follow the Jesus motto, man, don't go shaming people like that for who they are. While Roseanne Barr wrote, Kirk Cameron is an accomplice to murder with his hate speech. Being gay is a gift from God.

Well, you're the first minister I ever heard say being gay is a gift from God.

People are born, they have that type of orientation, so he is gay by divine right.

Jesus Never Mentions Homosexuality

It's really fruitful to inquire into what Jesus said about homosexuality, so let's do it now. Okay, we're done. Jesus never mentions homosexuality, never talks about it.

A man I found in the Yale library in a book written about 1935 that suggested Paul might have been a repressed gay man.

Founders of Chick-fil-A hate the gays.

And they focus on hating other people, just like Jesus.

I would proudly go for some waffle fries and a jumbo-sized sweet pea. And I won't forget the chickens who died, who gave their life for me. So I grab this sand, put it back down on my tray. Yeah, there ain't no new Chick-fil-A.

I want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along?

Radio Free San Francisco and the Debate Over Harry Knox

From high atop the transgendered America building, it's Radio Free San Francisco!

I'd like to say immediately, if you love the theme, send your kudos to Barry Latin at Alpha Omega Ministries. If you hate it, send that to Barry Latin at Alpha Omega Ministries as well. Oh yes, so many amazing statements all crammed into one here for Radio Free San Francisco.

Everybody said we needed to have a Radio Free San Francisco theme, and I suppose someone's going to come up with a Radio Free Rome theme eventually, and a Radio Free Salt Lake City theme for when we talk about Mormonism.

What would we do for atheism? What would Radio Free... I don't know. Anyway, welcome to The Dividing Line, and if you're listening today, then you were there for the first time, the first run, and Rich wasn't here for it.

Rich missed the... he's busy, but he missed the first official playing of Radio Free San Francisco. But he heard it before, so it doesn't really count. But anyway, welcome to the program. It is interesting to note that I was linked to an article about Joseph Bacon, B-A-K-E-N.

Might be Bakken, who knows? A 22-year-old Montana man admits gay bashing attack was hoax. A 22-year-old man who claimed he was badly beaten outside a downtown Missoula, Montana bar because he is gay, actually sustained his facial injuries trying to do a backflip on a sidewalk, police say.

Joseph Bakken of Billings, Montana was charged with filing a false police report after a video obtained by police and the Missoula Independent newspaper cast doubt on his story. On Tuesday, Bakken pleaded guilty in Missoula Municipal Court to the false report charge.

He was given a 108-day suspended jail sentence and fined $300, according to the Independent. Bakken initially reported to police he was attacked early Sunday morning by three men outside the Missoula club where he said he had gone to celebrate his 22nd birthday after asking patrons about the location of a gay bar, according to local media reports.

Pictures of his badly bruised face quickly circulated on the internet and were displayed on the Wipe Out Homophobia Facebook page and other sites. Gay rights activists expressed outrage at what they thought was a gay bashing crime.

But Bakken's story began to fall apart after the Independent and Missoula Police Department obtained what appears to be cell phone video footage. Cell phones have changed the world, folks. Cell phone video footage shows Bakken trying to do a backflip on a sidewalk in Missoula.

He falls short during the landing, which is now called fecking, according to the Olympics. Oh, did you see that? That poor German diver. Oh, my goodness. He has to be a good diver to have gotten in. I think it was in the finals, but like part of his foot missed on the springboard.

And so he started going around in the air and then he just didn't belly flop. He back flopped. And when you're doing that, when you're doing that in the finals at the Olympics. Oh, my goodness. That was oh, but that's sort of what he did.

That's sort of what Bakken did. Actually, I couldn't do what he did. He almost got all the way around, but he smacks his face on the ground. Video evidence taken by undefined sources was examined and demonstrates that Joseph Bakken caused injury to himself by attempting a backward somersault and striking his head on the sidewalk at about 2 .30 a .m. on Higgins Avenue.

Now, excuse me, but anyone who is in Missoula, Montana on the street at 2 .30 a .m. is obviously not there for any good purposes because the sidewalks were rolled up at 10. So I'm not sure how he hit his face on the sidewalk because the sidewalks would have been rolled up long before that particular thing took place.

The reason I mention this is not that there are not people who don't beat up gays. There are. And I remember so very clearly the lovely Katie Couric blaming the young fellows' death up there in, if I recall, it was Montana, on Christians as if the guys in the bar at that time in the morning were Bible-believing, church-attending, Jesus-praising Christians.

Yes, thank you, Katie Couric, for your deep, insightful understanding of all those things. But the fact of the matter is I'm seeing a lot of this stuff. I'm seeing a lot of this kind of material. You know, here's a guy.

He smacks his face and goes, Hey, I can become famous. I can strike a blow for my fellow homosexuals. Every time a homosexual runs into a tree, now it's going to be blamed on someone who beats up homosexuals.

And remember the two lesbians somewhere, I've forgotten where, they discovered, again, it takes time and the initial story always gets much more coverage and becomes much more a fabric of the dialogue of the society than, oh, by the way, they faked all this.

But they spray-painted some slur on their own garage and put like a noose or something on it. They did it themselves. But I wonder how long it will take, or I wonder if two years from now, once this little teeny tiny story has disappeared, how many times this guy's face will be on a pro-homosexual website someplace or the story about the women being allegedly attacked and all the rest of that stuff.

That's how these things take place. I think they need to go back and read the story, was it Peter and the Wolf? Yes, yes, yes. Well, hey, look, in our society today, it works. It works because people don't, people aren't worried about truth.

They're worried about how they feel. And the scary thing is, there are voters out there that would still look at this and go, yeah, well, still, I still think it's terrible how people treat homosexuals.

It's like, yeah, so should we spend money on training them to do backflips better? I mean, seriously, come on. But there are people that are just, Laramie, Wyoming, thank you very much. Mutato In Channel told me where that specifically took place.

So anyways, I found that interesting. And what is also interesting, of course, is the fact that the news will almost never cover when homosexuals are the ones doing the beating up or the homosexuals are involved in criminal activity.

In fact, what was it? Was it yesterday, the day before yesterday here in Phoenix, there was a police officer. A Phoenix police officer was arrested. I don't have this in front of me. I'm just going off the news stories I heard on the local radio station.

And he was arrested for sexual conduct with minors. One was 17 and one was 14. But they were both male. So it's a male police officer with young males. Now, it is a well-known fact that many in the homosexual movement are all pushing for the lowering of the age of consent.

That is normally something that goes hand in hand with the homosexual movement. So the 17-year-old especially, there would be a lot of places in not the United States, but in the world where that wouldn't even be an issue.

But the whole thing, the whole, oh, this is terrible, was because of the age, not the homosexuality. Because that's just the way, oh, that's perfectly natural. Can't say anything about that. Can't say anything about that.

The double standards, truly, truly amazing in our society today. Now, we have been listening to a debate that took place back in 2008. We're going to do two segments on the show today. Even I heard that.

What was that? Sounded like a bell going off out there. I'm not sure what Rich is up to there. But does it involve power tools? Yes, it does. It does involve power tools. It involves stuff for your new track lighting.

Yes, I know that. I know that I'm getting some track lighting so I can actually see. I have discovered that especially I need two things. I need light and reading glasses. Because amazingly, over the past couple years, the font in all of my books in my library has shrunk amazingly.

I don't know how that happens. I mean, I thought that stayed consistent in printed books, but it obviously doesn't. I mean, I was working on a section on the book. And I was counting the number of times that Wahid appears, the root.

The root is Wahad, but Wahid appears in the Quran. And, you know, I have to put it over where the most light is and put on the reading glasses. Because when I first got that exhaustive concordance to the Quran, the font was nowhere near that small.

It really wasn't. But evidently the dry temperatures here in Phoenix cause paper to shrink very uniformly, resulting in smaller font sizes. Oh, and I mentioned that. I go ahead and mention that. And what happens in Channel?

What happens in Channel? One of my friends, one of my compatriots, what does he do? He says he's writing a book and he's the guy who's doing proofreading. Drives a stake through my heart. But I can multitask because I just kicked him out.

Harry Knox’s Opening Claims About Sexual Orientation and Scripture

Okay. Anyway, we've been listening to a debate from 2008. We're getting right toward the end of Harry Knox's presentation. And I, unfortunately, I was, man, this is going to run out before we run out of time.

And then I'm going to need to find the second part of his response. But anyways, let's at least try to get through Harry Knox's presentation. Harry Knox has been chosen by President Obama for positions of high authority in our land, which, again, tells you something about the worldview that is currently in charge in the United States of America.

But we continue with Harry Knox's presentation.

I want to preach those sermons and share those insights in Sunday school and in your home Bible study. At the same time, I pray you will help people understand those texts. Don't say a word about my loving relationship with Mike.

The word homosexual didn't even exist in the English language until the middle 1800s. What is, how is that relevant?

Let's say that's true. Let's say that other terms were used. We know beyond all question that hopefully by now, having listened to all the things we've talked about on this, you're starting to recognize the really bad argumentation of the pro-homosexual, especially people who call themselves Christian homosexuals.

For example, saying that people back then didn't know about orientation or people back then didn't know about loving monogamous relationships and all the rest of this stuff. And hopefully by now you're starting to hear this.

They did know about it. They wrote about it. There are references. They just ignore it. And this kind of, well, the term didn't even exist. But are you seriously telling me that that's somehow relevant to what the Bible actually teaches?

Who cares? English didn't exist at the time of the writing of the Bible. The question is, does the Bible describe the perversion of the natural sexual order where men engage in sexual intercourse, which is unnatural sexual intercourse because you can't engage in actual sexual intercourse, a man with a man, but you have to pervert the purposes of the human body, engage in sexual activity?

Are you seriously trying to tell me that because the term homosexual develops over time that somehow the Bible can't accurately address that? And again, I hope you notice the issue that is raised here.

My loving relationship with Mike, again, we're talking about an incredibly, if this man has had a monogamous relationship with this man and that the chances of that are incredibly small, both before they're hooking up and then during the time of that.

And studies have proven beyond all shadow of a doubt that the vast majority of homosexual men do not want monogamous relationships. I think those who represent or put themselves in a position of representing homosexuality should be open and honest about this and say, I am in the minority.

I am in the minority here. Be honest. Make sure people understand that the large majority of male homosexuals have many partners in their life and that a huge proportion of them have hundreds of partners in their lives.

Those are the facts. That's not even questionable. Keep that in mind when you hear this kind of stuff.

We have only just begun to understand anything about sexual orientation and we must not put words into Paul's mouth that he would not have even understood. When Paul wrote to Timothy, he urged him to remember who he served.

Now, did you catch that? I mean, that's exactly what I just said. It is the whole idea. Paul didn't understand this. Paul didn't understand sexual orientation. What the Bible says is irrelevant. That's the fundamental assertion that's being made.

And to confront and encourage those around him consistently, even though it would cost him. I know what it costs someone to preach on Leviticus 18 and 19 and point its message at the institution that holds her or his retirement account.

It cost me my ordination. Thank goodness. Thank goodness. That is the right thing. Let me assure you, I would have no respect whatsoever for any Christian denomination whatsoever that would allow this man to hold an ordination within it.

And any Christian denomination that would have him have an ordination within their denomination is demonstrating their apostasy as a result. I don't think there's the slightest question of that at all.

But not my ministry. I know how much easier it is to let people think the Sodom story is about people like me when it's really about empire and war and a lot of things you don't want to touch on when making your livings at places like Fort Bragg.

I know that since 90 of pedophiles are men who abuse girls and that since it's your neighbors who make pornography one of the largest industries in America, it is easier for you to let folks think Paul was only worried about homosexuality.

Now, catch that.

Catch this. This is, again, I'm encountering this over and over and over and over again. Well, since there's other sexual sin, since there are others who are, you know, there's pornography, there's all these things, that means you shouldn't be so focused on homosexuality.

Well, I haven't encountered too many people. There are some, I suppose. And the few people that have even gotten close to doing this have gotten quite the pushback. But I've not encountered people who are saying, you know what, I am really into porn and I think that's the way God made me and I should be a minister.

And you are closed-minded if you try to in any way, shape, or form restrict my freedom. But that's what we've got going on here. And so think through the arguments, see where it actually goes, and be amazed as I am amazed at how often the argument that is being presented is presented repeatedly and yet it is absolutely without merit.

But I must finally be true to my calling and ask you to live deeply in the texts that are before you. Yeah. I urge you to be true to those texts and to live into your tasks as pastors and teachers and Christians, because the stakes are high.

Your parishioners and neighbors are desperate for your guidance. And if you fail to teach them what these troubling texts are really about, there will surely be others willing to do your job for you.

Now, we have worked through all of his presentation and discovered that on each of the texts that he addressed, he gave a shallow, surface-level, acontextual, and fully refuted reading of the text. There wasn't any question about that.

But, unfortunately, that would require folks to actually know something about the Bible and have a much higher view of its inspiration than Harry Knox has.

Paul’s Closing Exhortation and the Authority of Scripture

In order to accomplish their own ends, I come to you with quivering hands. I say all of this to you with the discomfort and trepidation required by our task for today. I would like to send you out shouting, but that is not my job.

Mine today is to have you hear the words of Paul to Timothy that have proved timeless enough to become Scripture. Always be sober. Endure suffering. Do the work of an evangelist. Carry out your ministry fully.

I, myself, am already being poured out.

I will confess the exact meaning of that application difficult to say. Well, Michael responded, I thought, very well. He started off, as Michael tends to do, in a sympathetic tone, but then he got around to getting down to the real issue, and the real issue is, what does the Bible actually say?

I'm going to just jump into the middle of his statements and let you see what happened.

Relationships, there is a violation of God's ordained male-female order. If you study Romans 1, there's no intellectual laziness. You know, I'm a biblical scholar. I live in these things. It doesn't make me right, but it certainly does not make me intellectually lazy.

You study Romans 1, study all the top commentaries. Compare what Paul says in Romans 1 in the Greek with the Septuagint, the Greek translation of Genesis 1, and he says that male-male sex and female-female sex, having nothing to do with temple prostitution, he explicitly says that it's contrary to nature, and then lists things in Greek that are exact parallels with Genesis 1.

It is a violation of the male-female created order. You cannot get away from that. As for Leviticus, go home and do a little study. Take out your Bibles and read Leviticus 18, and read it from beginning to end.

You will see that this chapter speaks of universally forbidden sexual practices. God said the Canaanites did it, the Egyptians did it, the nations you came out from did it, and because of that I judge the nations.

And if you do the same thing, incest was not just in temple prostitution. Bestiality was not just in temple prostitution. Homosexual practice was not just in temple prostitution. That was not the historic biblical context.

The fact of the matter is the Bible explicitly speaks against homosexual practice. We can't get around it. We must minister with compassion, understanding to the gay and lesbian community, and work for greater recognition of their needs, but we cannot and dare not to our own detriment change what God's Word said.

Thank you.

Now, he only had just a few moments, and that was just the closing statement, but as you heard, he very directly went at what was said. He didn't have time to go into each and every text, because the rebuttal period was way too short to be able to do that.

But he provided a strong response. And remember, the opening presentation was based upon looking at the Bible, I was a minister, quoting from Paul's letter to Timothy, and all the rest of this stuff, trying to make it sound like, well, if you really got deep into these texts, then what you'll see is they're not saying what these terrible, horrible homophobes are saying.

Now, when challenged, if you really, really do believe that that's what the texts say, when you're challenged, what are you going to do? You're going to go deeper. You're going to provide counter-argumentation.

You're going to talk about what the original languages say. He just said there are direct parallels in the language between what Paul's saying and what's found in Leviticus, and that's where Arsenio Coites comes from, and Arsenios and Coimbe, and all these things we've been saying for a long, long time.

I brought these things out in my response to Matthew Vines, and so on and so forth. It's all there. You're going to have to provide some kind of response to that. But I've debated these guys. I've debated John Shelby Spong.

Did he provide a response to that? No. No. I've debated Barry Lynn. Did he provide a response to that? No. What was the fellow up in Salt Lake City? Denny, Brad, something. Anyways, homosexuals in Salt Lake City.

Did he provide a response? No. If I got a chance to debate this guy, would he provide a response? Well, let's listen to what his response was, and I think you'll see an amazing change of attitude. Very good.

Harry.

In every conversation that I ever have about this hard topic, it becomes pretty quickly clear whether the person with whom I'm talking values the experience of the Holy Spirit in my life. First shot.

First shot, pure subjectivism. If you say my exegesis is wrong, then you're questioning the value of the Holy Spirit in my life. Now, what does that absolutely necessarily say? Well, if you don't do that, Harry, if you say the Holy Spirit is telling Michael Brown to say the things he's saying, then your Holy Spirit tells people to contradict each other, right?

And if he's not doing that, then what you're saying is that you don't respect the role of the Holy Spirit in Michael Brown's life. Huh. See how that goes both directions? But you see, when you're painting yourself as the victim, when the entirety of your argumentation is meant to create emotional response, not logical, rational, and intellectual response, then you don't worry about stuff like that.

You just pour it on thick, and you keep going with the victim mentality. And the sad thing is, I believe clear thought is a gift of common grace even to the unregenerate person. The ability to recognize that if you don't think clearly, if you don't think logically, if you don't think rationally, then you are denying your true humanity.

You are not functioning the way that you should function, no matter what your worldview is. And that you should require of the leaders of your culture that they likewise think logically and rationally.

That's a gift of common grace. And I'll be perfectly honest with you, it is being withdrawn from a large portion of the populace of Western culture. It is. I see people reasoning. I see people thinking purely on emotion.

They don't think about the future. They have no concept of what's good or bad for a culture, what's good or bad for children. And it's part and parcel of God's judgment upon this culture. And that's why this kind of rhetoric is effective for many people.

On any truth level, it's laughable, but it's effective.

And whether they're going to be presumptuous enough to deny that the experience that I have had exists. And not just me. My lesbian and gay Christian and sisters and brothers of many other faiths, too, so fully embody the beauty of those faiths all over this world that we stand in stark contrast to any rhetorical argument.

Now think about this.

I feel like putting my arms around someone and start swaying back and forth and singing the Coca-Cola song. You know? I mean, this is a debate? I mean, kumbaya! I mean, what? This? It's just...

On this. The love of Christ, I pray, is simply available to you through my life and apparent to you through my life.

Don't worry about the fact that my opponent just ripped my entire opening statement to shreds in five minutes or less. Don't pay any attention to the man behind the curtain. Look how nice I am. Look how well-dressed I am.

This is argumentation?

I work very hard to make it be so every day. And I know that that is something that the Church over time has valued as highly as it has the Bible.

Really? The Church over time has valued this kind of... Well, look at us. And look how wonderful we are. More than the Bible. Or at least equal to the Bible?

Okay. What it has sought not to do when it has been wisest is to make an idol of the Bible and to make it the only standard by which we judge things. Catch that. Catch that. You see the shift here?

Opening presentation. Let's go deep into the text. Having been torpedoed and dive-bombed in, very kindly, in only five minutes, the very loosely affixed mask of belief in the inspiration of the Bible flies off.

And now we don't want to make an idol out of the Bible. I mean, we don't want that to be our only standard. We need to look to other things. We need to look to how wonderful people are. And so, you know, those Aryans were wonderful and so that never should have happened.

And polytheists are wonderful. And atheists are wonderful. And Muslims are wonderful. Let's all get together. You get the feeling, you get the conclusion that it was a completely dishonest waste of time on this man's part to have ever even pretended to open up the Scriptures here.

Why not just do what Dan Savage did? It's a bunch of bleep! You know, at least he's honest. You know, it saves a lot of time. Dan Savage just gets to the point. I reject it. I understand that. I get that.

That's consistent. What I don't get are these people who keep carrying this book around that fundamentally they detest. That's what I don't get about all theological liberals. My suggestion to all theological liberals, give it up.

Quit playing the game. Quit carrying it around. Yeah, Bible sales might go down just a little bit, but we'll pick up the slack. Really, we will. It's okay. It's just absolutely amazing to me. I don't know why liberals...

Okay, I do know why liberals teach Bible. They teach Bible to inculcate unbelief in it, but why even pretend? Just be honest and say, I don't really believe this stuff, because that's what we're hearing right now.

Let's not make an idol out of it now. It's not the final authority. My experience, you know...

We judge when we do it most wisely in community and in deep and fervent prayer. We listen first in our own hearts to what God is telling us.

And where are you getting all of this, Mr. Knox? Your source is... I don't remember Jesus saying any of that. Jesus kept referring to the Bible. In fact, he held men accountable to the Scriptures. He said, have you not read what God spoke to you, saying...

It seems he had a much higher view of the perspicuity, authority, and ability of the Bible to act as judge in these things than you do. So why should I listen to you, Harry Knox? Because you claim the Holy Spirit?

Well, the Holy Spirit gave us the Scriptures, and the only reason you know there is a Holy Spirit is because of what the Scriptures say. And so you're asking me to reject what the Holy Spirit gave to us.

Even Jesus and the apostles talked about how, for example, he'd quote what David would say, but David, by the Holy Spirit, said... So they had the same view that I do. And so you're telling me that I should reject what the Holy Spirit has given to me in favor of what you claim the Holy Spirit has given to you.

This shouldn't surprise us too much if you've watched my debate with Barry Lynn. Barry Lynn claimed in our debate to receive revelation from God on the same level as the Apostle Paul. Yeah, he did. Go back and listen to it.

I was rather shocked. Of course, he also said Paul was over the top in the book of Galatians.

But there you go. And then we talk and talk and talk in our churches and in our homes and amongst our friends and family about these hard issues. And we listen for what is resonant with all of the themes of the Bible.

We listen to what is resonant with all of the themes of the Bible. No, you don't. No, you don't. Theme of the Bible, the holiness of God. Genesis through Revelation. Nothing unclean will enter into His presence.

It's right there. You don't like that. You've gotten rid of that. The filter through which you remove entire themes of the Bible is what? Your homosexuality. Your sexual perversion becomes the filter through which all the themes of the Bible you don't like are removed.

That's what we're having presented here. With justice and community, care for the neighbor, a seeking of real understanding between people who don't understand each other, don't know each other very well.

And when we do that, we come to better decisions over time. And that is why, over time, the churches in this country and around the world are beginning, one after another, to embrace what I'm saying to you tonight about homosexuality.

To really embrace the ministry gifts of lesbian and gay, bisexual and transgender people in their midst.

Now, have you noticed he just got his head handed to him on a platter, biblically. Have we heard any biblical response? No. All we've heard is post-modern drivel intended to undercut the authority and perspicuity of Scripture.

And to celebrate them.

So that now churches like the United Church of Christ, denominations like the United Church of Christ, and several others are finding new growth by really telling the truth. New growth!

These denominations have just about dried up, blown away, withered away, but they're getting new growth.

Truth about these things and finding that they have congregations that are vital and vibrant because they're doing so.

They're great Christian social clubs. Well, religious social clubs, not Christian social clubs.

Modeling true community. The kind of community that says, you know, life is hard. And what I don't want to do is be violent to you in any way. I want us to go through this together. And I will not, first of all, use words to hurt you.

And I won't do anything else I can to incite other people to hurt you.

I won't use words to hurt you. That's what Michael Brown just did to me. He used words to hurt me. Because he refuted what I said! I'm sorry, folks. Oh, James, you're just so unloving. I don't consider that loving.

I stopped thinking like that when I was six. Don't you remember? Mommy, mommy! She said this to me! Um, John, they're just words, you know? What was it? Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me.

Isn't it a part of maturity and adulthood to weigh words, think logically, and not wear your emotions on your sleeve? You hurt me with your words because you said I was wrong. Goodness! It is absolutely positive.

Folks, it is not Christian love to give in to that kind of mealy-mouthed, anti-Christian definition of love. The love of God took Jesus to the cross of Calvary. Don't you realize that by giving in to that, you're turning the very love of God at Calvary into a wishy-washy emotional feeling that accomplishes nothing at all?

It's amazing to me that we so quickly give in to this stuff. That's not love. Anyway. Now, you know, we've had these conversations before. The Bible is pretty clear, Paul especially, that women are to be quiet in church.

Let's provide a real meaningful rebuttal to what Michael Brown actually said. No, no, no. Let's poison the minds of every post-modernist and do damage control. Isn't this almost the only thing we see?

The only thing we see in modern media? It just drives me nuts. I don't care if it can be on Fox or it's even worse on CNN. Does MSNBC even exist anymore? I don't know. But anyway, this is what you hear all the time.

When someone actually starts making a point, it's a, yeah, well, what about this over here? And off you go into irrelevancies. No one can stick on a point. It is absolutely.

Frustrating. Not leaders. Quiet. In fact, says something about covering themselves. We have moved beyond that as a community of faith. And we have seen the resonant gifts of women in ministry among us.

We have moved beyond.

What Paul said. So we need to move beyond what Paul says. We need to move beyond Scripture. Our community has now become revelational. That's what's being said. Now we celebrate them.

The Bible says, just as explicitly as Paul says that he thinks what Mike and I do in bed, which is such a tiny part of our lives.

If it's such a tiny part of your lives, how come it dominates your thought? How come it dominates your self-identification? How come it dominates your identification as a quote-unquote Christian? I'm sorry, it's not a small part of your life.

It is the definitional part of your life. And that's plain. And the fact you can't see it says something about the effects of it upon thought. It's unnatural. He says that slavery is natural. And that slaves should obey their masters.

Yes, they should. And given the kinds of slavery that existed back then, why don't you make the differentiation that any honest person would have to make between the slavery of Rome, the slavery of the Hebrew system, and the slavery of the modern American system?

Why don't you make that differentiation, sir? If you ever hear anybody talking about this and they don't make that differentiation, they do not carefully delineate, they do not talk about the fact that slavery saved lives under the Hebrew system because it was the only way you could survive.

It was either that or starvation. If they don't bring that out, and if they don't point out that that's completely different than what was happening in Africa, where people were being kidnapped and forcibly shipped over, and that that's completely different than anything you find under the Hebrew system, etc., etc., if they don't bring those things out, they're dishonest.

They're lying. Some of them know. Some of them don't. Most of them are just simply repeating the rhetoric they've picked up from somebody else they've never checked on their own. But they're just dishonest.

You can just automatically tick that person off. Oop, don't need to listen to what that person has to say.

We have moved beyond that in conversation. First with God, and then with each other. And we have come, in fact, to learn that we in the white part of the church have much to apologize to.

People of color. Now notice, he's talking about what the Bible says about slavery, but then he makes it a racial issue. Which it wasn't in the Bible. And so he's clearly mixing the two without making the proper distinctions.