Hearing the Voice of God with Jim Osman

Can you show me because we're going to use some hermeneutics. Can you show me anywhere in the old testament where that word perpetual is not perpetual? Because again, I understand you're appealing again.

Sure. No, no, hold on. Hold on wait a minute. I thought I was going to get to have a talk here. You asked the question. Hang on a second, sir. Be quiet.

Well, let's there you go I will mute you because it's not your show. You asked a question. I'm going to give you the answer. Genesis 6 4 the word olam is used referring to those who are of old Deuteronomy.

I'll get just rattle off all the ones where it's used not referring to perpetual genesis 6 4 deuteronomy 32 7 joshua 24 2 1 samuel 27 8 job 22 15 psalm 24 7 24 9 25 6 41 13 77 9 90 verse 2 103 verse 17 106 verse 48 119 52 143 33 verse 3 Proverbs 8 23 proverbs 22 28 proverbs 23 10 and ecclesiastes 110.

Should I go on for more? Blah blah blah blah blah.

This is apologetics live to answer your questions your host from striving for eternity ministries.

Blah blah blah blah blah. I always love that highly intelligent answer that he provided when yeah, he thought he had a great question there and. Uh, that's one of the classics. All right. So well, welcome to another edition of apologetics live.

We're glad to have you with us. This is uh Presented by striving for eternity. This is where we Hope to answer your questions. We can answer. I argue I can answer any question you have about god and the bible if you doubt That just join us here and we can find out.

But I don't know is a perfectly good answer. So we're going to deal with a video tonight. We're going to do another video review a much shorter one. We can actually get through. Well, actually Chris and drew made it through maybe five minutes of that other video.

So, let me bring drew in. Drew welcome. Your your internet is hopefully stable for tonight. We're going to find out hopefully.

Yeah, we we will find out if it cuts out. I'll just i'll just hang out in the background and monitor comments and things like that. So.

All right. So, um, we're going to talk about a video that. Uh, I it was sent to me and and let me give some some. Well before we get that, let me bring in our our guest here. Jim osmond of kootenai community church.

Jim. Welcome. Hey gentlemen, glad to be here. Do you know he just likes to show off that beautiful scenery of idaho? Yes, you know what you can't see right behind him. He's got a great garden right over there to over his left shoulder there.

You know. Yeah, you can't really see it. You got the. Is it behind the trees. It's no it's in front of the trees.

Yeah, you can kind of almost. Oh, okay. I said there you go. I got.

Yeah, you got corn there now. All right. Yeah. Yeah I plan on on. You know, while you're away I plan on going to the garden and just checking things your knowledge.

Just going and stealing some vegetables because they cost too much at the store.

Yeah, exactly so. All right, so, uh. We we did. I was thinking of actually triggering Jim here because just before we we started the show. I saw a a clip there. Jim of nancy pelosi praising adam shift.

For restoring faith and integrity to our government. If anybody can do it adam shift can.

Faith integrity and government are words that don't go together. That's exactly right. Yeah.

So so this video that we're going to play was sent to me by a gentleman it was he was in an evangelism group and basically he was challenging those of us in this evangelism group saying that The reason we were not really seeing Success or you know people coming to christ In our evangelism is because we were not or at least I was not Learning how to hear the voice of god and so he he gave me this video that explains How we can hear the voice of god because his argument jim was That hearing the voice of god is necessary To to have evangelism because that's how you you get, you know, fruitful evangelism um.

And so we invited you in because well, I think you've you've written the world's best book on this subject.

I think I have it right here. Oh, there you go. Appreciate that.

The the the only problem. I I the only problem I found with that book was the forward. I mean. You you you bumped me for john macarthur. Really? Uh.

It was really close. I thought oh andrew john, I don't know which but.

Yeah, I I mean I was just looking to get an early copy of it but. So but no. So let's first before we play a video for folks who may not have Seen you around. Maybe people are new to this The show and haven't seen you.

Just introduce yourself to folks and they'll know where where you're at. How to pronounce that town your church is in. Yeah, you know it took me like a year to pronounce it right. But yeah.

My name is jim. Hoffman. I pastor a church in rural north. Idaho in kootenai. K-o-o-t-e-n-a-i kootenai. Idaho. It's called kootenai community church.

Yeah, I had the hardest time with that written the first time. But so let's talk real briefly about the book. God doesn't whisper. It's a book you've written. Uh, just give a real quick overview of your background.

Um.

And Why you wrote that book? Yeah, I grew up. Well, I shouldn't say I grew up. I grew up in a Not a church going home but my early exposure to christianity as a as a new believer was among people who Taught and believed that you could hear the voice of god and that we needed to hear the voice of god to Make decisions in day-to-day life like which college to attend whether I should go back for a second year of college.

Which woman to marry when to get married all of that stuff the day-to-day mundane decisions. And that was what I had adopted as sort of my worldview my my christian perspective on scripture and being led by the spirit.

That's what I thought being led by the spirit was. I was quickly disillusioned of that and started to research what uh, how god leads us and what scripture teaches about the voice of god and whether we should hear from god or not and so I Began to examine a lot of the presuppositions and scripture passages that are pressed into service for that.

For that worldview or that that that christian view that says we should we should be listening for the still small voice getting being led by nudges and nudgings and promptings and impressions and And uh feelings and signs and and scripture and and all of that.

I started to evaluate whether any or all of that was biblical and I found that that's not exactly How god says that we should make decisions and that there's nothing in scripture that promises that We will hear the voice of god or that and there's nothing in scripture.

It teaches that we should be listening for the voice of god. So I came to write the book basically as an answer to a previous perspective that I had had on Hearing the voice of god and being led by the spirit and what it meant to walk with god.

And the book basically kind of deals with those three three suppositions presuppositions that people bring to this to this View one of them being that we should. That we need to hear the voice of god and second that we can be taught to hear the voice of god and that we Then should be listening for the voice of god that need god needs to communicate the voice of god His voice to us and give us that guidance to kind of deal with those three presuppositions.

And then the various elements of the methodology in the book as well. So that's kind of a brief overview of it.

All right, so let's let's go and play this. Horrific video. He's got three so his He has three points that he it looks to make in this so He he he describes this video is here. How to hear god's voice.

Three powerful strategies for increasing accuracy and consistency. Now I mean just right off the bat. I know I saw this comment in here. D says. Justin peter says. If you want to hear the voice of god read your bible.

Out loud. Actually what he what he says is if you want to hear the voice of god read your bible. If you want to Hear it audibly Read it out loud. Yep. So that that is how we hear that is how we properly hear god's voice.

But uh, let's play the first part and and deal with each one of these.

In order, so here we go. Hey, are you a christian who wants to hear god's voice or maybe you do hear him? But you want to hear him more accurately and on a more consistent Basis, listen whether you are new to the faith or you've been a believer for years.

These three strategies are going to help you tune your spiritual ears and develop a more intimate Hearing relationship with the lord and for our jesus veterans. The first two may seem a little cliche.

But stick around for step three because i've got a challenge for you that is guaranteed to stretch anybody who participates. Let's get into it. Step one. Read the bible. I know. Cliche you may even be really tired of hearing it.

But people are saying it because it's true familiarity with the one true god and his unchanging character. Through the scriptures is key to accurately hearing the voice of god. Are you or have you ever been in a relationship where healthy communication has been important?

Of course you have. And did that healthy communication come 100 naturally or did you have to work on it the more you get to know? The person you are trying to communicate with the easier it is to hear and understand what they're saying.

Read god's word with him meditating on it studying it asking him questions about it learning about his Unchanging character the eternal nature of our god Perfectly revealed to us in the son of god and god himself jesus the christ.

Listen like detecting counterfeit money. It is the careful study of the authentic that will help us discern the counterfeit and there are counterfeit voices. Step two.

Journal your prayer life. Okay, so step one I'll back that up a bit step step one. If he stopped at step one, I think we we would. We'd be good with this, right?

Uh partially I mean There's some definitions that we need to work out here. Uh, I would be. I I would totally agree with the statement that if you want to hear god speak You should read scripture because I would say that it's in scripture that god speaks.

But not in the mystical way that he's talking about and I don't mean the same thing by that that he means. So I would differ with him on two points first. Um when we say that When we say if you want to hear god speak read the bible and if you want to hear him speak audibly read it out loud.

That's justin's quip when justin says that and when we affirm that when I say that what i'm what I mean by that is that The voice of god comes when I read the text of scripture and rightly understand the meaning of the text.

So when I am when I am reading first thessalonians chapter four and I hear god god's words say that the that his will for my life is my Sanctification that I abstain from sexual immorality and that I do this and then I do that etc.

I hear that I understand that The spirit of god is revealing the mind of god to me in that i'm hearing the voice of god through the pages of scripture. So scripture is the medium through which we hear the voice of god.

The meaning of scripture is The voice of god. So When he says when people like this and the hearing the voice of god movement or hvg movement. When they say that you should read the bible. You'll notice that what he was saying in that was that we read the bible so that we can become familiar with who god is.

So we can know more about his nature and his character. Not so that we can hear the voice of god in the pages of scripture because scripture is the medium. Scripture is the thing that informs or tunes our ears.

So that we can know what god's voice is like. So that when we hear the voice of god, it's not in scripture. It's outside of scripture coming to us through some other medium. So for this guy scripture is not the medium through which we hear the voice of god.

And the meaning of scripture is not the voice of god. Scripture itself only simply tunes your your ears your tuning fork. It simply tunes you to hear god outside of scripture. So for him scripture is not the voice of god itself or the word of god itself.

Now he would probably argue if you pressed him on it to be fair. He would probably argue that Scripture is the word of god. It's the inerrant word of god. It's the infallible word of god is the inspired word of god and there's nothing else like it.

And that's why we should read it but for him it is all of those things. But the benefit of scripture is not. That we may understand the will of god and thus hear the voice of god through the meaning and the medium of scripture.

But scripture's benefit is in helping us know the voice of god when we hear it outside of scripture. That's the main benefit of scripture when you read people like henry blackaby and joyce meyer and priscilla schreier.

Those who talk about hearing the voice of god outside of scripture when they talk about scripture and the benefit of it. It's that it allows us to hear god outside of scripture because scripture sort of tunes our spiritual ears to know his voice.

When he's trying to speak to us and we're trying to hear him. So that's the first distinctive is that for him scripture doesn't contain the word of god. It is not the word of god. It just simply helps you hear the word of god outside of scripture.

Um. Yeah, there was a second one that I was going to get to there skip my mind now. Well.

One of the things that got me was the guarantee he guarantees. You can hear. He's going to give you a way to guarantee that you can hear from god.

Yeah, and then he to guarantee that he has to guarantee that god is going to be speaking to you because if god's not Speaking to you. You're not going to hear him no matter how hard you listen. Yeah, if I don't say anything to you, it doesn't matter how well trained you are in listening to me.

If i'm not speaking to you, you're not going to hear anything from me. So his assumption is much like Uh, robert morris's assumption frequency that god is always speaking. He's always just Like a parrot with his tail on fire.

He's always talking and that all you have to do is tune in in order to pick up that frequency and listen to it. Um, he can guarantee you that you will hear the voice of god. But in order to do that He has to guarantee that god's going to be speaking to you and he can't guarantee that.

As if god can never choose to be silent. He always has to speak. And he nobody can make that guarantee.

Yeah, well I think embedded in that. It gets to the idea that what god is doing is he's sitting there wanting to talk to everybody. It's it's just that we're not listening.

Yeah. One that he's always talking and we're not and we're not able to hear him because we're not tuning in. That's the other aspect of it is that I need to be taught how to hear the voice of god. There's nobody in scripture just to deny the whole premise of his video.

There's nobody in scripture that ever had to be taught how to hear the voice of god. Nobody Paul never taught classes on it. Nobody moses never taught classes on it. There's no there's no indication of scripture that anybody who heard god speak ever had to be taught how to do so because.

You don't need to be taught to hear something like that because when god speaks he speaks. Audibly or infallibly and he is infallibly able to get his message across. So it doesn't matter if I have my head underwater with earplugs in I will still hear god speak if he speaks to me.

There's no Necessity to cultivate any kind of a discipline. To hear god's voice because god doesn't struggle to be heard when he intends to be heard. Yeah, there's a there's a comment here. That says samuel and I think he's talking referencing samuel when samuel was sleeping and he heard the lord say his voice.

But then he went up. Um, and I forgot who who is going to see but eli. Yeah, and he and eli had to say no. That's the lord. So when you hear it again say here I am lord. Well, that wasn't samuel having to be taught to hear the word of the lord.

He was he just heard his name and he thought it was eli and eli said no, that's god hear it. But the way he heard it and he understood it perfectly and it was clear. He understood every single thing that god said to him and at no point did samuel.

The only thing samuel was confused about is where it was coming from because the text says that the word of god through prophets was was A rare in those days. So samuel never expected to hear the voice of god contrary to what hvg teachers and these continuing revelationists say today.

Samuel never expected to hear the voice of god. He wasn't tuning in to hear it. He was laying down. He heard somebody call his name and he didn't even think it was god. He understood it and he heard it and he didn't have to learn how learn how to do it.

He just he understood it and heard it and that's it. There's no running to be done, right?

Yeah, I think I I like what what you had said with the tuning um because. That is really what you're it's he it sounds like he's getting to is you got to tune into god like like God's just talking over the radio waves non-stop and we have to tune into the right channel is almost how it sounds.

Curtis is. I saw a comment from curtis. Uh, so he is watching. Um, he said, uh, he said hey, sorry. I couldn't join stream yard. I've got about 15 minutes. So so if you do want to join just go to apologetics live .com.

Um, and I did I did mention to him when we first when I first sent me the video that we were going to do this review of it, so. Um, but just go to apologetics live .com scroll down. You can watch it. There you can watch the show, but you can also scroll down to where the duck icon is.

That's the stream yard click that and that's how you you could join um, and if you do that folks, you just got to um, Allow the camera and video to be used by your browser, but that's how you join every week that we change that link.

So it's always set so you can just always go there join ask any questions that you have so. So yeah, so the one thing that I saw was that the guarantee. Um but the the other thing is you know when we when when he's making the case as if this is something that.

You know. Like like it's really it gets down to the core issue. I have with with a lot of this. Is that sufficiency of scripture isn't enough? Um, and I should mention jim you you mentioned the the initials throughout in your book god doesn't whisper you Have the acronym for hearing the voice of god as hvg.

So folks if you hear him mention hvg. It's just shorthand for hearing the voice of god um and so. So, yeah, so I I mean that's the real thing is. Even you mentioned in your comment is it's as if what he's doing is saying.

Hey Scripture is not enough like use get the scripture to to be able to get into the real conversation so. It's really just a springboard a springboard for that more important conversation hearing god speak to you personally and Jim have you in in your experience having dealt with this for for years?

Um, you've had people that have say they they hear from the voice of god. Do they all agree?

No, no. No, I mean they get mixed messages all the time. It's amazing how subjective the voice of god is to people.

Yeah you know and and I I I just dealt with this recently. So I was down in washington dc doing a tour at the museum of the bible and. And what ended up having is we were in a in a hotel that night and I was in the hot tub and as You know drew, you know, I like to go in hot tubs to evangelize.

We sit in a hotel hot tub. You have different people coming in and going out every 40 minutes and and you just start conversation. So the first Uh person that was in was this woman named susan who identified herself as a apostle.

Apostle right there. I had a problem. But she said she was a in the church of christ and i'm like.

I didn't think they have apostles in the church of christ and they don't have women.

But I I think the issue is that I was really concerned because I was like, oh, well you're kind of. You know, she I I ended up finding out. I don't think she's church of christ. I think she said that's the name of her church.

But I think it's a when oneness pentecostal because she hung out in the hot tub. And I now, you know was talking to this guy. Connor connor was 18 years old. Explaining the gospel. It was it was a great conversation.

And just as he gets a point he says, you know, I said, is there anything stopping you from praying to receive christ right now? And he goes no, I think this is something I really got to do. And susan who had been quiet like she was telling her boys to come in this man's preaching this man's preaching.

And so she was thrilled with it. Until I asked him if he wanted to pray and receive christ and then she goes wait a minute, sir. You didn't tell him he needs to be baptized first which is kind of funny because we were in a.

You know, we could just dunk you right here, right? Um and unfortunately the conversation went from Him like talking about him praying to receive christ to her arguing against the trinity. Hmm she said that well, how do you baptize you baptize in the name?

Jesus jesus is the father is this is the holy spirit. It's it's a you know, it's one person. So i'm like, okay. And so i'm trying like and I know you guys probably have experienced this as well. You you want to focus in on the one person you're talking to right?

And yet now I got to get into a kind of an argument debate over the trinity and whether baptism saves and things like that. But here was the thing. She ultimately went to this she said to she said I know that my doctrine's right my teaching is right because God spoke to me.

And so what she said was her son was in surgery. They they couldn't get his son to wake up after surgery from the anesthesia. They they had been trying for three hours and before he went in he was singing some song and She they brought her in and told her he won't wake up and she you know god told her What to say to him based on the song he was singing beforehand and soon as she referenced that song he woke up.

And so she's like so that means that god speaks to me and I can't be wrong and and that that right there jim is the the thing I struggle with is When i'm sitting there saying well, this is what scripture says and she just Jettisoned all of that.

Because god spoke to her directly and gave her a message that You know, we don't see in scripture. Right, but she was saying she's only giving me scripture. I'm, like that whole story wasn't scripture show me in the bible where that story occurred.

You know, I know I know a lady who left her husband and moved in with some other guy and um had an affair and then ended up divorcing him and all of that. Stemmed from the fact that she felt that god had spoke to her and revealed to her that this is what she's supposed to do.

Yeah, the fact that scripture contradicted that and did not get grant her that freedom meant nothing to her. It was irrelevant.

Yeah, and and that's the danger. I see and I I see curtis. Um backside i'm going to bring him in to see if we could at least hear him. It's Curtis, are you there? Yes, can you hear me? I can hear you.

We just can't see your video. It's oh weird. It has the obs, uh signal saying that the camera's off. But okay.

So, well, well i'm not anything to look at right now anyway, so.

So. You know, we uh, I don't know how much of it you heard and if there's anything that uh,.

I think i've heard everything from the very start. Um, okay. Yeah, I wish I had more than like five minutes because this is such an honor to have the video reviewed. But a few of the things that you were saying I felt like, uh Were Maybe a misunderstanding Of any claims that I was making or at least an overstatement of those things.

Okay. So the very description of this uh your conversation today uh on on twitter when I responded to you in that Biblical evangelism group. Yeah, I mean by no means do I Intend to say that people aren't coming to christ because people aren't listening to the The voice of the lord.

I don't agree with that whatsoever. Okay, I believe it's the gospel. The gospel is the power of god for salvation to everybody who believes. Um, Uh, I guess a couple more things that I could maybe clear up and maybe you'd have a follow-up question about um, clearly I am uh um A bit of a continuationist.

I don't know. I'm not a i'm not a debater or a an arguer really so i'm not used to Supporting claims and that kind of language uh Sorry, let me make my point. Uh, however uh clearly I am uh Somebody who believes you can hear the voice of god.

However, I do believe that the scripture as it's been given to us in the original languages is like you said, um Oh your name's not popping up on the stream apologies. Yes, jim uh As you said, uh, if you press me on it, I believe that The word of god is inerrant and and complete and I agree with that.

I do agree with that and and As I do believe that we can uh hear the lord Presently, I believe that everything that you think you hear should be judged according to those scriptures um and anecdotally my confidence in the ability to hear the lord is My experience is hearing him and having those uh things Confirmed kind of trial and error.

Um, can I make uh one more? Uh, kind of response.

Yeah, I mean and and let me just first say if I misrepresented the conversation on twitter, um, then forgive me. No, it's okay. Yeah, absolutely. And those things happen always come back in another another week when you have more time.

So that's fine so you can you could listen to this on this on the podcast or watch it and. And you know next week we're going to be talking with someone I don't know jim may want to come in on this. But we got someone that wants to defend benny hin and his ministry.

Okay, so that's that's for next week. Um, all right.

That should be fun. Yeah, that'll be fun for everybody. Uh, let's see, well, I can't remember what I was going to say so maybe I shouldn't say it. Well, you can't say it if you don't remember. Yeah, it's yeah, that's an easy out for me, right?

Well, I I have a few minutes. Do you have any specific questions for me while i'm on the line? Or do you just want to continue with your? process. Well. The very end of the video. Okay this is important for me to clear up because my heart was racing as I heard you speaking about this because I was like No, that's not what I think.

That's not um. The very end of the video I do say and you'll you'll probably listen to. It's only a five minute video, but uh I say It's god's choice when to speak. But we can prepare ourselves To hear him.

And that's something I believe that's why I said it um. And the three Points that I make the three strategies i'm trying to Teach in this video or hand off in some way. Um, i'm not a teacher either um.

But those three strategies are for that purpose uh, I believe those three things can help us Cultivate a hearing and grow in a hearing relationship. With the lord which I know. Um. Uh, jim, you don't you don't believe but.

Does that make sense? Yeah, can I ask you a question to sort of interact with that because i'd be curious to how you would answer a couple.

Of sure i'll try. Yeah, I might say I don't know but okay, let's try. That's fair. Um.

One. Where do you see in scripture that this that this ability to hear the voice of god is cultivated or developed? By anyone who heard the voice of god, uh, well, um.

The first things that are coming to mind are Uh in acts. Um the was it a group of no, no, no, that was earlier. Uh, I don't know. Uh, I don't know how to answer that with scriptures right now for you off the top of my head, but i'm looking at the early apostles following the lord, um there's verses like when it's Is it paul who says and it seemed right to us and to the holy spirit to?

Go such and such. Uh, yeah, and i'm thinking There might be a couple References to prophecies or people that were prophesying That the things that they heard did not come to pass or weren't.

Yeah, so you could be you could be talking about agabus there so whether he was. Yeah, whether he was speaking Infallibly or not and whether that was a false prophet or not. We could probably lay that aside for but i'm mostly interested in Examples of people cultivating this discipline.

Yeah. Well, it's more of when I when I look at i'm sorry. Whether it's paul or nebuchadnezzar or abraham or moses or any of the prophets or any of the apostles or any revelation? That when god wills to be heard he just simply speaks and ensures that.

Those who to whom he is speaking have the ability to hear him. He doesn't struggle to overcome our You know distractedness or our busyness or our deafness to his voice. Because god doesn't try ever to be heard.

He just speaks and is heard. I don't believe god tries to do anything. So that's why I was curious if you can come up with an example in scripture. Of anybody who heard the voice of god who had to cultivate this discipline?

And then the follow-up question and curtis we don't have to have like a whole conversation tonight because I won't be able to i've got. No, I understand that and I would love to come back on and and have you give a chance to To think this through it's like when drew and I debated pre-millennial.

He had to he had to go home and think it through a little bit. So when if you if you. If you think this through and come back with me I would love to have more interaction because i'm curious to that if you can name anybody in scripture who heard the voice of god.

That had to cultivate this decision. Okay one or number two. Is there any place in scripture that teaches us how to cultivate this discipline? So for instance paul writing to gentiles who had never been who had never received the oracles of god.

All the gentile churches to which paul write you would expect at some point in one of those epistles to the corinthians to the galatians to um the philippians to somebody that paul would have if this discipline is so important that paul would have Laid out something about how to to hear the voice of god because you would assume that that is pretty important like for timothy for instance when paul wrote to him and Second timothy or peter wrote to his readers in second peter knowing that the apostles were about to pass away from the scene.

They don't give any instructions to their protégés in the faith on how to hear the voice of god or to cultivate that discipline. Um, there's no instruction given the pastoral epistles. There's no requirement to elders that they be able to hear the voice of god in order to lead the church or be Qualified for eldership.

There's no requirement for deacons to be able to hear that. And and as for those who are in the hvg movement. This is a very essential discipline for evangelism and obedience and faithful servants and christian growth.

And yet I don't see any instructions anywhere in any of the epistles um, and we would expect most to see it as I said in epistles written to gentiles who had not been the recipients of the oracles of god like the jews had Epistles to lay out for us.

Here's how you do this I mean paul tells us you know how to structure the church of god how How elders should function and deacons should function in ministry and how the lord's supper should be done and how christians should judge one another.

Set up their own court systems church discipline all this essential stuff. We have instructions on it spiritual gifts and yet not a word about how to cultivate this discipline. So that's that's what i'm curious about.