Godly Discipline

LaRue Baptist Church, OH iconLaRue Baptist Church, OH

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Parenting In Perilous Times (Lecture 4) Godly Discipline Pastor Tim Pasma

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Alright, good to see you.
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Now, do you all have the notes? The notes have a little circle at the bottom, or an oval.
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If you don't have an oval, you've got the wrong notes. They're the ones that are sitting on the chair right there as you walk in, and you almost trip over it.
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There's where you'll find the notes. Yeah. Alright.
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Well, let's get started. Let me pray, and then we'll dive in. Okay? Thanks, Father, for just the opportunity you've given us to gather together freely, to learn together.
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We're thankful that your word is sufficient. We're thankful that your word tells us, through example and precept, how we ought to raise our kids.
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And so now I pray that you would give us enlightened minds that will accept what your word says.
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Father, part of the battle is that we don't believe your word is enough. So help us here to believe that the
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Bible does tell us how we ought to do these things. And we'll thank you in Jesus' name. Amen.
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I can remember as a dad when I had to get the paddle out, and I'd walk toward my boy with the paddle, and he'd look at me and he'd say,
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Dad, what's that? As if he'd never seen anything like a paddle in my hand before.
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Or worse, you're walking up to your daughter, and she looks at you with those great big blue eyes, and you can see the tears welling up in her eyes, and she says to you,
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Daddy, I love you. You know, that's hard.
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But you know you've got to do what you have to do. But then maybe there's some here tonight, or some of you who are listening or watching this right now, that the idea of actually using physical punishment with your children is an incredibly repulsive idea to you, as if that's the last thing you want to do, the thought of spanking a child.
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And if that is your attitude, then you need to hear what the Scriptures say tonight, because they give us a great deal of instruction when it comes to the use of physical or corporal punishment.
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And I plead with you to hear this out, because you may be surprised at what the Bible actually says.
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Too often what people hear is a caricature of Scripture, and not what Scripture actually says.
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So one of the first truths you need to hear is that the rod is not the only means of raising your children.
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Okay, now what do I mean by that? Well, let's look at Ephesians 6 -4.
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Okay? Ephesians 6 -4. This has been our foundational verse as we've looked at what it means to raise our children.
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And it says, Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the
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Lord. Now note the basic plan that God gives us. Number one, He lays the burden on the fathers.
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Not on moms, although they're part of it. The burden falls on dad. And it says, Don't raise them in such a way that they become angry people, either explosive anger or this perpetual resentment, quiet kind of anger.
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And then you're to bring them up. How? In the discipline and instruction of the
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Lord. Now, the first thing to note is that discipline or spanking is not the only means
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God gives us for raising our children. It has to be connected with teaching, with communication.
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It doesn't stand alone. Alright? Now this is not an appeal tonight for parents to become strict disciplinarians, but rather this is an appeal that you do not ignore one of the means that God has given for raising our children.
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Now, I grew up in the 60s and the 70s. The 60s was the revolution of which we're bearing the fruits now.
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But it was a very anti -authority kind of a culture.
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It began this really anti -authority way of looking at life.
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And one of the ways that the Christian community responded to that was to just swing the pendulum over to you're permissive with your child, you've got to really spank the living daylights out of them.
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And there's a tendency for Christians to not look at what the
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Scripture says, but to just react to the prevailing culture.
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And so I'm asking you to listen carefully to what the Scriptures have to say about this important issue.
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Not that you're conformed to the culture, but neither are you reacting to it, but looking at the
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Bible and developing a philosophy, developing a means that God has given us in terms of using discipline.
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Now, I believe that if you're going to discipline in a godly way, you have to have some convictions in mind.
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You have to be convinced of certain truths. And I want to give you some truths
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I think you need to be convinced of if you are going to obey God in the use of the rod.
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The rod, that is, discipline. You have to be convinced that God commands you to use the rod.
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God commands you to use the rod. Proverbs 19 .18 says,
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Discipline your son, for in that there is hope. Do not be a willing party to his death.
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There it's commanded, discipline your son, for in that there is hope. And Proverbs 23 .13,
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Do not withhold discipline from a child. If you punish him with the rod, he will not die.
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Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death. The Bible, here in Ephesians 6 .4,
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actually uses the word discipline, which has the idea of painful training.
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Okay? And you have to use it whether or not the latest experts tell you to use it.
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Most of which will tell you not to. You must use it whether you think it's necessary or not.
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You must use it because God commands it, and you believe that his ways are better than the ways that fallen human wisdom comes up with.
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So it's important to see right off that God commands the use of it. This isn't something that we, you know, that somebody came up with.
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God is the one who commands it. You have to be convinced that authority is good and appropriate.
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Now again, since the 60s, our culture has an animosity towards authority.
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But God does not. In fact, it's almost part of our American DNA that you live to stick it to the man.
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You know, the heroes are the ones that go against authority. And we've imbibed that a great deal.
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But God loves authority, and he hates rebellion. And we need to keep that in mind. 2
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Kings chapter 2, 23 and 24. You know what that's the story of? The story of Elisha going into a city and a bunch of teenagers start mocking him and calling, saying to him, go up you bald head.
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Just mocking him because of his lack of hair. And so the scripture says that Elisha cursed them in the name of the
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Lord. Put a curse on him. And out of the woods came two female bears that tore apart 42 of those teenagers.
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That should give you some idea of what God thinks about mocking authority. He says that rebellion against authority is rebellion against God.
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Proverbs 30 verse 17. Listen to this proverb. The eye that mocks a father.
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How do you mock your father with your eyes? How do you think that happens? You roll your eyes.
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Listen to what this proverb says. The eye that mocks a father and scorns to obey a mother will be picked out by the ravens of the valley and eaten by the vultures.
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You know what? This is a side light. I remember preaching on Mother's Day and I used that proverb.
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And there was a little boy and I remember his name and I'm not going to tell it to you. Not one of mine. There was a little boy sitting right there.
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And when I read that he just started doing this. It was really funny.
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But I think he got the message that day. But it also tells you what God says. You mock your father with your eyes.
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You don't listen to your mother. Your eyes should be pecked out. That's what God says about obeying your parents.
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And so if you tolerate child rebellion, you mock God's authority.
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You're mocking God's authority. And you expose your children to God's judgment.
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Keep that in mind. You expose your children to God's judgment. If you love them, you will teach them to submit to authority.
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If you love your children, you will teach them to submit to authority. You have to be convinced, if you're going to discipline, that authority is good and appropriate.
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You have to be, as well, you know how we also know that is because the Trinity is an inherently authoritative and hierarchical.
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The Trinity is the original community. And God created humanity to glorify the beauty of that transcendent community.
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The members of the Trinity are equal in value. All three members of the
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Trinity are God. Jesus and the Spirit are not any less
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God than God the Father. And they relate to one another in an ordered hierarchy.
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And they delight to have it this way. Someone read for us 1
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Corinthians 11 verse 3. 1 Corinthians 11 verse 3.
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All right.
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Now, there's a hierarchy there. The Son submits to the Father. We read in John chapter 16 that the
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Spirit submits to the Father and the Son. There is a hierarchy.
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There is an authority that's inherent in the Trinity. And God's authority is inherently good, virtuous, and beautiful.
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William Farley, in his book, Gospel -Powered Parenting, says this. One of the lessons of the
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Trinity is that God loves what we despise. Namely, God loves and embraces rightful authority submission relationships.
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He also wrote this. Listen to what he says here. I recently witnessed this exchange.
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Mom asked her grade school -aged daughter to help set the table. Why should I set the table, the daughter answered resentfully.
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I'm tired of doing your work. Set the table yourself. None of my friends have to set the table.
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Why should I be different? Now, he says, how should love respond? It would call this mother to discipline her child in love.
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Why? The eternal and temporal consequences of this rebellion are deeply disturbing.
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Someday, every knee will bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is
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Lord. The day will come when we will go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against God.
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For their worms shall not die, their fires shall not be quenched, and they shall be in abhorrence to all flesh.
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Isaiah 66, 24. It is impossible to believe this, love your children, and not discipline them.
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So it's important that we discipline them, because they need to know that authority is good and appropriate, and eternity is at stake.
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You have to be convinced that discipline leads to a life that is good. Ephesians 6, 1 -3.
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When it talks about raising children, it says, Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is, what?
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This is right. And then it goes on to say, and if you do what?
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What's that? You have a long life. Alright? You'll have a long life.
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You'll have a good and a long life. Life will be good, and it will be longer for you.
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Discipline leads to life that is good. Proverbs 19, 18. Discipline your son, for in that there is hope.
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Do not be a willing party to his death. And again,
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Proverbs 23, 13, and 14. Don't withhold discipline from a child. If you punish him with a rod, he will not die.
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Punish him with a rod and save his soul from death. Isn't that?
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I don't know about you. When I read those Proverbs, in our culture today, they sound incredibly, right?
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Punish your son with the rod, he will not die. Right? We live in a culture that says if you use your rod on a child, he'll certainly die.
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That's abuse. That's not what the Bible says. Discipline leads to life that is good.
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Now, I love what Ted Tripp says in his book, Shepherding a Child's Heart. I think this is really good.
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And that is, the use of the rod, then, is a rescue mission. If discipline brings about, if obedience to parents comes about, if you obey your parents and that comes about through discipline, and that leads to a good and a long life, then that means that the use of the rod is a rescue mission.
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When our children are disobeying, they're in danger. And as Ted Tripp says, we want to get them back into the circle of safety.
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Right? Honor your parents, obey your parents, and you have a long and good life.
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The rod helps rescue the child from spiritual death because rebellion, left unchallenged in the heart, brings death and judgment.
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All right? And so the use of the rod helps my child return to that circle of safety.
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Helps them to see it exposes their heart. And it helps them to see that they need a savior.
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And failure to obey dad and mom is a failure to obey God. And so you want to get them back into that circle of safety.
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Honoring and obeying your parents is the safe place to be. You also have to be convinced that discipline is an expression of love.
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Discipline is an expression of love. Proverbs 13, 24. He who spares the rod hates his son.
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But he who loves him is careful to discipline him. In Hebrews chapter 12.
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The Hebrews are going through all kinds of difficulties and he says, look, have you forgotten the word of encouragement that addresses you as sons?
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And then he quotes from the Proverbs, right? The Lord disciplines those he loves.
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Quoting straight from the Proverbs. Revelation chapter 3 verse 19. Jesus says, he whom
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I love I rebuke. I discipline. So the question is, why don't you spank your child?
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Could it be that you don't want to upset him? You're afraid that if you spank him he'll hate you. You're afraid that if you do spank a child that terrible things are going to happen.
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Who are you thinking of? You're thinking about you. It's all about you. Discipline is an act of love because you don't want to be a willing party to the death of your child.
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It's an expression of love because the cross proclaims God's infinite passion for justice.
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You ever think about the fact that God crushed his own son? That God crushed his own son for our sin?
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That's how just God is? And that anybody who is not in Christ is going to face the unadulterated justice of God in terms of his wrath?
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The stakes are high when you think about it in that way. The stakes are high. The cross reveals that God hates sin and it provokes his wrath.
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So you can't be passive about your children's sin and then claim that you love them. One of the reasons why we discipline is that they know experientially
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God's hatred of sin. They get it. Now I think the next one is real important.
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You have to really be convinced of this and that is the use of the rod is an expression of faith.
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This is one that, this is a truth that deeply affected Beck and I in our younger days as parents.
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God has mandated the use of the rod. And you obey not because you perfectly understand how it works but because God's commanded it.
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It is an expression of confidence in God's wisdom and the excellence of his counsel.
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Discipline is an expression of faith. You're believing God in what he says.
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Even though you don't know how it works, you don't, you hesitate.
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It's an expression of faith in what God has said. Discipline imparts wisdom.
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Discipline imparts wisdom. Proverbs 29 .15 The rod of correction imparts wisdom but a child left to himself disgraces his mother.
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The rod imparts wisdom. Now again, the way, the
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Proverbs talk about, okay, in the wisdom literature of the Old Testament. It's called wisdom literature because it's given in order to make us prudent and wise so that we can live good lives in a
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God -created world. And folly, foolishness, is the opposite of wisdom.
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And when you read the wisdom literature, such as Proverbs, you see that it always says that folly leads to death.
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Wisdom leads to life. It's important to see that. When you read in the
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Proverbs about foolishness, it's not talking about silliness. It's talking about the fool.
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The fool who tries to live life in a God -created world as if there's no
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God. And that leads to death and to judgment. Children are not morally neutral, right?
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Folly is bound up in the heart of a child. That way of going your own way is bound up in the heart.
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They're born with that. A child not submitting to parental authority is acting foolishly, which means he's on the road to death.
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The fool lives by his lusts and his wants. He lives out of the immediacy of his cravings, his expectations, his hopes, his fears.
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He is driven by his wants and his passions. And if that's not curbed, it leads to death.
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So we want to use the rod to impart wisdom. And wisdom is equated with the fear of God and it leads to life.
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So spanking drives the foolishness from the heart and it imparts wisdom.
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Okay? It imparts wisdom. Now, it's really important for us to see.
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The rod will often, most often, will impart wisdom much better than a sound argument to a five or a six -year -old.
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Okay? Now, one of my favorite stories is a story of a boy who grew up in this church.
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And he grew up in the day when they would have half -day kindergarten. So he went through kindergarten half -day.
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Then he got to first grade the next year and it was for the whole day, for the whole week. He didn't care for that.
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And so one day he said to his teacher, I have to go to the bathroom. And she said, okay. And so he, over here where the school was, he left school and went home.
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He just walked out of the school and went home. This is in the days when they didn't lock doors. He just went home.
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Well, his mom just tried to convince him that that wasn't the right thing to do. It was foolish to do that.
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The next day, he asked his teacher if he could go to the bathroom.
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And she said, okay. And he went home. And his mom tried to convince him through the best arguments you can think of that that was a foolish thing to do.
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Don't do that. It didn't work. His dad dealt with him.
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Guess what? He got wise real fast. He didn't leave school ever again.
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Okay? He didn't leave school ever again. Now, and listen.
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You see what the world proposes. They say give them time outs. That doesn't impart wisdom.
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The rod imparts wisdom. Children get wise quickly when you use the rod.
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You have to be convinced that discipline should be corrective, not punitive.
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This is a key concept here. When we read how the Lord disciplines us, it says he disciplines us so that we share in his holiness and that we become righteous and experience peace because of righteousness ruling.
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So in other words, when God disciplines us, he's not doing it to get us.
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He's doing it to correct our paths so that we go in a different direction.
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It is corrective. It's not punitive. And so when you discipline your children, it can never be
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I am fed up with this. You've made my life miserable. Now I'm going to make your life miserable.
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Okay? I'm going to make you pay for the fact that you've just made my life inconvenient.
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That's not the attitude. The attitude ought to be you need to be going there and I'm going to apply the rod to correct your trajectory so you end up going in the right direction.
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It can never be punitive. And by the way, children can figure out when it's punitive and when it's corrective.
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When you just haul off an uncontrolled anger and just wail the living daylights out of them, they know the difference between that and correction.
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So it ought to be corrective. If it is punitive, you're going to reap some bad fruits from that.
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Okay? So discipline is not punitive. It's corrective. You have to be convinced that discipline expresses the fear of God.
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Okay? The fear of God makes us willing to discipline. It makes us willing.
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If I fear God, I will discipline. It motivates us to persist in discipline.
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The fear of God reminds us that failure to discipline has consequences. Now when you open up the book of 1
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Samuel, you read the story of Eli and his two sons. Eli had a habit of not correcting his sons.
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And they were the ones that were in charge of the worship at the tabernacle. And if you know the story, you know that his sons were stealing from the people.
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When they brought their sacrifices, they were stealing from them. They were literally having sexual relations with women at the tabernacle.
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That's how corrupt they were. And it was because Eli never corrected them. Do you remember what happened?
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Both those boys died. That was God's consequences. And worse, he removed anyone from Eli's family from ever being in the priesthood ever again.
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Because Eli did not fear God like he should have. And there were some horrible consequences.
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Again, Harvey in his book, Gospel -Powered Parenting, which I would suggest to you, it's a great book, once observed a mother who spanked her toddler because the girl looked at mom, turned around, and walked away.
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And so he says to her, that was impressive. What motivated you? Here's what the young mom responded.
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The fear of God. I looked at the cross and saw God's verdict about my child's rebellion.
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To most, this sin is a small thing. But I know God doesn't see it that way. My daughter's self -will caused
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Christ's crucifixion. I thought of the price Jesus paid, and then the price my precious daughter would pay if I did not teach her the humility that produces obedience.
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So I spanked her. Now again, that's the mindset that we need.
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It equips parents to overcome the fear of their children. Any parent who says he's not afraid of his children is either deluded or lying.
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We all, all of us, are afraid in some way that we'll do something wrong, we'll make them hate us, that we'll disappoint our children.
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The fear of God tells me I need to be a God -fearer and not a man -fearer.
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I fear man and not God. I'd rather disappoint my children than disappoint
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God. And so parents who lack that kind of confidence live in fear of their children, and they don't bring discipline to bear.
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All right, next question. When should you exercise discipline? When should
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I do it? Okay? And again, the answer really is not complicated.
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It's whenever what they're doing, their attitude or actions, or the attitude of your child would keep him from reaching
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God's goal. We looked at this last week. Three clauses. It's not that hard to memorize.
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I want independent godly disciples who love and serve God and love and serve others and who can handle life by handling
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God's Word. Okay? Three clauses. Godly independent disciples who obey the two great commandments, which are, right?
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Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind and love your neighbor as yourself. And then lastly, they're able to use the
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Word of God to deal with the issues in their lives. That's the goal for my children. And if they're doing something, or their attitudes show that are wrong, that'll keep them from reaching that goal, that's when you exercise discipline.
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You've got to sort it out. Do you get all over your child because he put his shoes on the wrong feet? Because he forgot to put away the wash rag?
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Because he dropped the phone? But then you let him get away with sulking and that quiet passive rebellion?
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Right? Why do you discipline? This is what helped me the most, I think. Should I discipline them right now or not?
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Are they doing something? Are they exhibiting an attitude that will keep them from reaching the goal?
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That helped me sort out when I was just, you know, cranky. That's not a good enough reason.
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So keeping God's goal in mind helps you sort those questions out. So memorize that goal.
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Memorize it and use it. Okay? You should exercise discipline whenever disobedience occurs.
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Do not beg, cajole, bribe, and all those other things.
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Do not, okay? This is what I call, here's what
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I have called the DIT philosophy of discipline. It's called discipline by idle threat.
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Don't do that. You know what discipline by idle threat is? Okay? You're in the store and you see this woman.
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She goes, stop doing that! She starts yelling at her kids. If you do that, we're not going to go to McDonald's!
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Well that child knows, and mom knows, they're going to go to McDonald's because she wants to go to McDonald's. I'll never forget the time
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Calvin was about four, and I was really mad at him.
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And we had to go to the store. And I said to him, look, if you don't start acting right, we're not going to take you to the store with us.
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You know what his response was? Fine, I'll stay home. That wasn't going to happen, right?
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You don't discipline by idle threat. Don't do that. You've got to remember what's at stake.
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He's disobeyed. He's moved out of the circle of safety. And remember, you train, you teach by what you do.
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Okay? Okay. Now you know what I told you.
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One, two, two and a half, right?
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What have you just taught your child? You taught him how to count to three, yeah.
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You've also taught him this. You've disobeyed here, but you've got a little bit extra more time to disobey.
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Right? I'm warning you, right?
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I don't have to obey without a warning. You teach by what you do.
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You discipline whenever disobedience occurs. You should exercise discipline immediately.
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When you tell your child to do something and he doesn't do it, don't hesitate.
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Don't start trying to convince him of the fairness of your directive. Don't try to show him just how stupid he is not to do what you're telling him.
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I don't know if you've noticed this, but children are incredible attorneys.
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Okay? When you try to convince them of the rightness of your position, they can always punch holes in it.
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And then you have to argue further. And then they come up with counter arguments and then you argue more.
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And you're trying to convince them how right you are. Don't do that. Okay? Now don't you go out that door.
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Don't you go out that door. And he walks over and he puts his hand on the doorknob and he looks at you and he says, now don't you do it.
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Don't you do it. He turns the doorknob. Right? Don't do that.
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Discipline immediately or he will bring disgrace to you. Now here's something that I think is real important.
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And I'm seeing some of this really needs to be incorporated into the generation, the younger generation sitting here.
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The Andrews and the Levi's and Elaine and all you young parents here.
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Okay? I've seen this in your generation. I'm not picking on you particular people.
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But your generation is really struggling with this whole idea of discipline. Really struggling with this.
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They just don't want to do it. And so what happens? So a lot of times they, okay, the
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Bible says we ought to do it. But you know, when you do it, there's a danger of turning them into some monster and all this sort of thing.
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And so what they do is they use spanking as a last resort. We'll try everything we can and we'll use spanking as a last resort.
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Don't do that. Do you believe what God says or not? Okay? Do you believe that the rod imparts wisdom?
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If you do, you're not going to use it as a last resort. Okay? You're not going to use it as a last resort.
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And that's where a lot of young families are today. We'll put it off and put it off.
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Maybe this will work. Maybe that will work. Maybe that will work. Well, nothing worked. I guess we'll have to spank them. That's not what the
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Bible says. Okay? So it's important.
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It's important to remember that. You know, some kids are really good at manipulation.
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When I was going through my fundamentals course in Lafayette many, many, many years ago,
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Pastor Good, who is the pastor at Faith Baptist in Lafayette, who was teaching us, he was one of my mentors in counseling.
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He told the story of counseling this couple and they had a little girl who had some heart problems.
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And this little girl caught on to it. Right? And she would say to her parents, if you spank me,
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I might die. Right? If you spank me,
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I might die. And then you'll be sorry. And Pastor Good said to them, well, you need to tell her, but if we don't, you'll live and we'll all be sorry.
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So the rod imparts wisdom. The rod. Don't be a willing party to his death by not spanking.
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You need to see that God says this is important.
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But then someone says, yes, but what if? What are some of the common objections to the rod?
38:31
This is what some folks say. I love my children too much to spank them. We've already talked about that.
38:37
Proverbs 13 .24. He who does not spank does not love his son.
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If you do not discipline, you do not love your son. According to Proverbs 13 .24,
38:57
hatred is what will keep me from spanking my child. Love will force me to do it. If I really do love my children,
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I will do it. And listen, I know what it's like. I remember what it was like. The kids would be upstairs, we'd put them to bed, and finally get to sit down to talk to my wife and relax, and pretty soon the light in the entry room is starting to sway because there are some children upstairs jumping from bed to bed and all kinds of stuff.
39:33
And it's like, I don't want to get up out of my chair. I just, you know, so what do we do then?
39:40
What happens then? There it is. You start yelling.
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You start yelling, okay? You know why? It's not because you love your kids.
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It's just because you love yourself. You don't want to be inconvenienced. You don't want to give up the time, the comfort, whatever, okay?
40:05
I'm afraid it will make him rebellious and angry. Proverbs 29 .17
40:14
says, Discipline your son and he will give you peace. He will bring delight to your soul.
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By the way, can my discipline make my son rebellious and angry? Yeah, if I don't do it the way
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God says. All right, we'll come to that in a second. Here's another objection. And I've heard this millions of times.
40:41
Well, with my son, it just doesn't work. I have heard that over and over and over again.
40:51
Okay, now let's think about that one. Essentially, when you say it doesn't work, you're saying,
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God, I know you're omniscient and infinitely wise. You know us inside and out and how we are made, but I think this is a bad idea.
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It doesn't work, God. Okay? It just doesn't work. I've got a better idea,
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God, because this just doesn't work. Think about that.
41:20
It doesn't work. Well, what are you saying to God then who says do it? And when it doesn't work, or when it appears not to work, that's when you have to say,
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I have to believe what God says, not what I'm seeing. Right?
41:36
Faith is believing what God says. Here's one reason why it doesn't work.
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An inconsistent use of discipline. The child never knows what's going to elicit a spanking because you may get a spanking for one thing one day, and you do the same thing the next day, and nothing happens.
41:56
All right? Or they'll do something just little one day, and they get their hide tanned, and then they'll do something big the next day, and nothing happens.
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Or I'll spank you for this, and then you do it two times again, and then the third time
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I'll spank you. Inconsistent use. Just not being consistent. Not being consistent.
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All right? Sometimes there's a failure to persist.
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Many parents think that this is going to change the child overnight, and they just give up. All right?
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I spanked them three times, and they're still doing it. Stick with it then.
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Stay with it. All right? A child is... Does anybody change overnight?
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No. And this is why you always have to say to yourself, I'm in it for the long haul.
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From the moment they're born to the moment they leave the house, to go out on their own, we're in it for the long haul.
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Okay? There's a lot of parents who don't persist, because they think, well,
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I spanked them three times, and that reminds me, failure to be effective.
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Does the child even know he was spanked? Okay? Do they even feel it?
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Tap, tap. Don't do that again. Right? You tell them, don't do that. Tap, tap. You know, they have to feel it.
43:47
Now again, I hate it that I have to always add these qualifiers. It doesn't mean you beat them until they got welts on their rear end.
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Right? It doesn't mean that. It just means they need to know that it's happened.
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Okay? By the way, every child does this, and they should only do it once.
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You know what it is? That didn't hurt. Okay. Well. Of course, then they get wise, and it doesn't hurt, but maybe they won't tell you.
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Anyway, it's failure to be effective. It doesn't work when you discipline in uncontrolled anger.
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If you lose it, and you just go on a beating spree, that will not have an effect.
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Because your child knows you're not interested in them. You're just letting it all go on.
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You're just really going to take it out on them. Children know that. You cannot do this in uncontrolled anger.
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And you know what? We could dig deeper in all these ideas, but if you have a problem controlling your anger, then you need to learn, and you need help, you come, ask, we'll talk about it.
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You need to learn how to control your anger. By the way, by the way, some folks say, well,
45:29
I never spank them when I'm angry. Anger is a God -given emotion that's a response to sin.
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If you don't spank your child when you're angry, you're probably never spanking them then. Again, not uncontrolled anger.
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We're not talking about anger out of control. Here's when it also is ineffective, is when it's the only means you use.
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When you are not teaching, when you are not building inner convictions through the teaching of the
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Word of God, when you're not doing that, this won't be effective. If you're not teaching your children, then discipline is only effective, will be effective until they get bigger, smarter, faster, and stronger than you.
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Then it's no good then. It won't do any good.
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It cannot be the only thing you use. Here's another objection.
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It's a very common one today. I'm afraid it will make him an abuser. Now I want you to listen carefully to me.
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I have to choose whether I believe God or the latest scientific study.
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Now the first thing I want to say about that is so much of what the experts tell us is not science.
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Now I'm going out on a limb here, I realize, and I'm sure I'll be corrected if I say something wrong.
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But the scientific method says this. You form a hypothesis, and how do you prove whether, prove it or disprove it?
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You have the same, you do the same thing under the same conditions, and if you continue to get the same result, you say
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I've proved it or disproved it. No? Okay, tell us, Levi.
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Yeah. Oh, now don't get philosophical on it.
47:42
Okay. Yeah. What if...
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Okay. So... Can I say, here's...
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Yeah. Can I say, can I say if I take two atoms of hydrogen and one of oxygen under the same conditions and put them together,
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I'll get water? Okay. All right.
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Go with my definition. All right. Here's the point I want to make.
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These scientific studies on human behavior are dealing with things that you cannot control. One human being and another human being, just because you have a hundred people and, you know,
48:52
I've got sixty abusers and a hundred people spanked their children, and I got sixty abusers out of that.
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Right? You follow what I'm saying? The thing is, each person is...
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Why were the other forty? Why did they not turn out abusers?
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And is it the spanking that did it? Do you understand what I'm saying? Let's not talk about scientific studies.
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When it comes to this sort of a question, science is really tenuous. But the main point
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I want to make here is simply this. That I've got to choose whether to believe God or not.
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Okay? Am I going to believe God or the latest study from the experts?
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And listen. Okay? It's not...
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Listen carefully now. It's not the spanking that produces an abuser.
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It is... It is the philosophy.
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It is the life. It is the atmosphere that surrounds it that produces an abuser.
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If you've got a father who says, I'm king of the mountain.
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You do what I say or I beat you. As opposed to being the family's greatest servant.
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If you've got someone who says, I'm going to use my power to get what I want. That philosophy of life is what produces an abuser.
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Not the spankings. It's the way they learn to look at life. That's what produces.
50:30
And I would suggest as well that the reason why there's so much abuse today is because of the lack of the rod.
50:40
Because violence is born in a human heart. And don't do anything and you'll end up with people who are violent.
50:49
Okay? Alright. Real quickly, the fruits of the rod.
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The rod teaches your children that there are inevitable outcomes to disobedience. That's the fruit.
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That's one fruit. There are inevitable outcomes to disobedience. We live in a world where there's going to be certain outcomes to certain behaviors and attitudes.
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The rod shows God's authority over dad and mom. If you're careful to teach your children and you're saying,
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I must do this because God commands it. They'll understand something about God's authority. It trains a child to be under authority.
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It trains them that you can't do whatever you want. You're going to live under authority.
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Outcomes teach the importance of obedience. He learns while he's young that God places everyone under authority and that authority structures are a blessing.
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The rod demonstrates parental love and commitment. Hebrews 12 says that God's discipline should encourage us because it shows that we're not illegitimate children.
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Now what is that all about? Here's simply what he's saying. He's saying here's a guy. He has these children here that are his but then those two children over there are the ones that are the product of an illicit affair.
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Which children does he pay attention to? These children. He tends to ignore those.
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I don't even want to look that way, right? And so what Hebrews is saying is
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God treats us because he's disciplining us. He shows we're not the illegitimate kind. We are the kind that he's loved and that he's committed to.
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Okay? It's going to show that you're not an uninterested party.
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That you're not ambivalent but you're engaged and involved. It yields a harvest of peace and righteousness.
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Remember this is the standard when you physically discipline your children.
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When the harvest becomes evident is when the discipline proves successful. Alright?
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Now here's an essential truth for all discipline. This is absolutely bedrock essential.
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Here's the last thing I want to leave with you. And that is this. Relationship is everything.
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Relationship is everything. Some parents only relate to their kids when they're disciplining them.
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Alright? You should have tons of time to laugh with, play with, love, show appreciation to, building a relationship with your children.
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If they know that you really love them, discipline is going to have an effect.
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You've got to build a relationship with them. Relationship is the absolute foundation for discipline.
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So, I pray that God's view of discipline, that you're convinced of this.
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Because we live in an age that constantly challenges this view. Constantly challenges this view.
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And we need to stand on what God has said. Okay. Alright.
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So, does anybody have any questions?
54:37
Hang on. Alright. Anybody have questions? Don't look at that.
54:45
You should have left it alone. Questions? To?
55:08
To lack of discipline. To lack of discipline. Have you ever seen, have you ever seen a child who's not corrected how angry they get?
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You ever seen that? Children who have no discipline in their lives get very, very angry.
55:33
And it's, it's, and you know what I'm finding out is parents who are very, who don't discipline, like we've talked about, their children get very unruly and life revolves around them all the time.
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And they get very angry when they don't get what they want. Now, you let that grow. I mean, well,
55:59
I thought I saw Annie in here today. But Annie was a substitute teacher this year.
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Permanent substitute. And she spent a lot of her time with kids that they sent to this special place.
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And she would tell us about these kids that are eight, nine years old who are totally out of control.
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And people are afraid of them. Okay, why? Because they have parents who just are not disciplining them.
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And so, you end up with a very self -centered individual and when things don't go the way
56:40
I want them to go, I'm gonna get angry, okay? Now, you understand, have you seen that?
56:48
Very angry people. Now, I want you to think about this. Our whole culture right now, our whole culture, the message is this.
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You've got to be who you need to be. Whatever the authentic you is, that's what you need to be.
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And you determine what the authentic you is and no one, no one has the right to tell you, no one has the right to tell you that's right or that's wrong because if that's what makes you happy, if that's what makes you an authentic human being, then
57:24
I don't have the right to tell you, oh no. Now, so our very culture reinforces that.
57:38
We're gonna, what's that? Yeah, yeah.
57:46
Obviously, you can't live consistently. Our culture is encouraging that.
57:52
And so, I would say there's a real uptick in violence just because of this whole living for the flesh, right?
57:59
The center of the universe is me. Everything revolves around me. If I don't get what I want, I get angry.
58:05
Okay, Enola? If you take it back and off that, it seems, again, in our modern culture, there's only two acceptable emotions.
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You're either personally or personally outraged.
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There is no other emotion that is acceptable in society today.
58:32
You're one hundred percent.
58:37
Andrew? You said it to me immediately, but it doesn't seem like you're saying something out of disobedience, or it just doesn't think about it.
59:08
And so, typically, I try to give them plenty of opportunities. Yeah, well, again, here's where the gold comes in.
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Do I have a child who needs to learn something? Right? And there's opportunity for warning and so forth.
59:34
But it sounds to me like you say you're getting to the point where either it's defiance or it's unsafe.
59:43
Is that fair? Yeah, it doesn't seem to be defiant. Okay. It doesn't think about it.
59:55
Right. He just needs to be able to say, you know, he wants these ideas, you know. Yeah.
01:00:00
So that's what makes me not want to speak, right? Because it doesn't seem to be defiance. It's not what's going to keep him from the goal.
01:00:08
Yeah. However, there also comes a point where he's got to learn to think this way.
01:00:14
Exactly. Yeah. So then you've got another situation. You've got to learn to think, you know, remember.
01:00:21
You've got to remember. Yeah. So, again, guys, listen to me.
01:00:29
Is it wrong to warn my kids? No, but that's where the goal comes in.
01:00:34
You've got to think that through. This isn't defiance. It's getting to the point where he's got to start thinking this or he's going to get hurt.
01:00:43
Okay, I saw another hand. Dennis. In the beginning of the lecture, you were using the use of the rod interchangeably with the word punishment.
01:01:01
You also said that discipline is not punitive. Right. But is the same thing, right?
01:01:21
Not necessarily. A lot of people say, and if you want to do it,
01:01:26
I suppose you can. They say, if I punish him, I'm being punitive. If I don't want to punish him,
01:01:34
I want to correct him. Okay. Yeah, in other words,
01:01:44
I can punish you for the purpose of getting my pound of flesh, or I can punish you for the purpose of correcting you.
01:01:57
It's not vengeful. Yeah, and if that makes it easier to remember, more power to you.
01:02:09
Okay. The point really is, why are you doing it?
01:02:15
Why are you doing it? Are you doing it to get him? Are you doing it to correct him? Okay, that's the issue.
01:02:25
Levi? Yeah. I think what
01:02:35
I was trying to do is, I think the way you describe the scientific method, especially using the word prove and so forth,
01:02:42
I think that is the assumption that leads people to doubt. Does that make sense?
01:02:49
If it's been shown, if it's been proved, then it must be true, and therefore
01:02:54
I'm going to doubt what God is saying. Right? Unlike conditionally supported, which is why scientists work very well with humans, because of the myriad of conditions under which they're raised and so forth, that you can't control for, then there should be doubt, because there are way too many conditions to control.
01:03:19
Yeah, you can't control. I also have maybe a big one, because you can't, this is a good question.
01:03:26
What's that? This is a big question. Is discipline, when you say discipline, or any kind of corporal punishment, that's what we mean, the broadest corporal punishment, bodily.
01:03:42
Yes. Is that exclusive to Spaniards? No. Are all other forms of corporal punishment?
01:03:51
Well, all other forms of corporal punishment, like pulling their toenails off?
01:03:58
No, I wouldn't, that might make someone confused. Yeah, I would say so too.
01:04:03
If a kid says something, it's just,
01:04:28
I'm going to knock down the soap. Right. This might be a big question.
01:04:36
Yeah. I would, I would say this, when it comes to physical punishment, okay, the
01:04:46
Lord has produced something in the human body that can take it. I don't think it's good to slap, or pop them in the mouth.
01:04:56
I don't think that's a good, now I don't have biblical authority for that, but I'm saying, a consistent use of the rod on the bottom is, a child will get that, and they say, that's the punishment
01:05:15
I'm going to get. When I pop somebody in the mouth, that's, I don't know that that,
01:05:23
I don't know that that's as effective. Okay, and I don't think it's good.
01:05:29
I don't think it's good to do that. I honestly, I think corporal punishment primarily is on the bottom.
01:05:36
Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point.
01:05:57
That's a good point. It's not always bad, but it's also usually not, it's all, it's usually not considered, and thought through.
01:06:40
Tackle them before they get there.
01:06:55
You know what, someone hasn't raised this issue, and so I'll raise it, and that is, is punishment always with the rod, are there other forms, and I would say, yeah, there are.
01:07:09
Your children can learn from natural consequences. So here's the really, really, really, this has been extremely helpful to me, and this is another great book.
01:07:20
It's called Christian Living in the Home by Jay Adams. It came out in the 70s when I was in college, but in this book he talks about the fact of knowing the difference between swing issues and fire issues.
01:07:35
Okay. When you have the stove on, and that coil is red hot, and your toddler is reaching for that, right, you're not going to say, he'll only do that once, right?
01:07:51
You're not going to do that. That's a fire issue. A swing issue is sometimes they'll be outside, now they're a little older, they're outside swinging, standing up on the swing.
01:08:01
Okay. Well, if it's not too dangerous, right, they'll learn.
01:08:08
So that's what he calls a swing issue and a fire issue. Okay. When your daughter comes down dressed really goofy, you're looking at her and say, that is the stupidest thing
01:08:19
I've ever seen someone wear. I don't want her going out like that. Well, let everyone else tell her how dumb it looks.
01:08:27
Right? Yeah. When you go out on tour and you make them pay?
01:08:44
That's when they're teenagers, spanking, that was correction. That was correction.
01:08:52
That was most certainly correction. All right. Well, let's pray and then head to the back.
01:08:59
I know there's a bunch of muffins back there. All right. Let's pray. Thanks, Father, for our time together.
01:09:08
I pray this has been helpful and profitable. I pray that the folks that are watching this would have found help as well as the folks here.
01:09:17
Help us now to be consistent with what the Bible says. And we'll thank you in Jesus' name.