Jordan Bush of Thank God For Bitcoin: Moral Money & The Conference in Miami!

Opening Banter and Sponsor Messages

Exploring theology, doctrine, and all of the fascinating subjects in between. Broadcasting from an undisclosed location. Dead Men Walking starts now. Oh well hello everyone, welcome back to another episode of Dead Men Walking podcast.

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We love those guys supporting the show, being friends of the show, and helping us do what we do. Now, with that being said and the business out of the way, I want to introduce our guest. Now he's been on the podcast before, I think it was October, but we only got to sit with him for about 10 or 12 minutes, so we want to get into a little bit more.

He's the head of content education for TGFB, that's Thank God for Bitcoin Media. He served as pastor and church planning missionary in Uruguay alongside his wife and kids. He also helped author Thank God for Bitcoin, The Creation, Corruption, and Redemption of Money.

He'll be speaking at the Thank God for Bitcoin conference along with C .R. Wiley. He's a friend of the show. He's been on before on Theology Podcast, babe. David Cortot, is it Cotrone? Cotrone. He's been on the podcast, Zuby, and many others.

It's May 16th and 17th in 2023 in Miami Beach, Florida. It's Mr. Jordan Bush. Jordan, how are you.

Doing, sir? Man, so glad to be back on the program, man. Yeah. I'm glad to have you back because... Oh, go ahead. No, I was just going to say, I just really appreciated following you, obviously meeting you at Fight Left Feast and being booth buddies and then just following you on Twitter and seeing what you guys post.

So, yeah, thankful for you guys. And for those of you listening.

Too, if you hear me cough, I'm going to try to hit the cough mute button, but I just picked up something over the last day. It was 84 degrees here yesterday and it is hailing out right now in Michigan.

Welcome to Michigan in April. So something's going around, but I'll try not to cough too loud into the microphone there. But yeah, met Jordan down in Tennessee. Absolutely love what these guys are doing.

You've heard us talk about Bitcoin, cryptocurrency, that kind of stuff before when him and David were on the show down there for just 15, 18 minutes. It was one of our top rated episodes because, I mean, crypto is just such a huge subject right now, especially within the Christian community, believers, the reformed community and all that alike.

Every time I'm on Twitter and I see you guys doing, what is it called when you do the audio? Is it called a room? It's kind of a space. Yeah, sorry. I did Clubhouse during COVID for a little bit, but I haven't done Twitter yet.

You guys always have so many people jumping on there and you can tell there's a hunger for it. Just give us an update. We have some new listeners since October of what you do at Thank God for Bitcoin, what it's all about in a couple of minutes, and then we're going to get into the conference at your home because I'm excited about that.

What Thank God for Bitcoin Is Trying to Do

Yeah, appreciate you, man. Yeah. So basically, again, basically, Thank God for Bitcoin exists to help the church Christians broadly understand what Bitcoin is and why it matters and basically see the ways in which Christians are leveraging Bitcoin for the glory of God and the good of people everywhere.

And so again, when most people think about Bitcoin, they think about a Ponzi scheme or they're thinking about this is a get rich quick scheme, all of these things. And the reason why they think that is because there are a bunch of people who think about Bitcoin and try to leverage it in cryptocurrencies more broadly for that purpose.

But again, in the same way that the fact that drug dealers were the first ones to use beepers did not say anything about the beeper. Other than that, it was pretty good and useful innovation. You know, there's nothing you know, the fact that people use it for bad things does not say anything about Bitcoin.

It just says that there's a utility to Bitcoin that that people have found that that serves them in ways that other things don't. And so basically, again, there's Bitcoin. We just basically help Christians understand what Bitcoin is and the different ways that people and Christians all over the world are trying to leverage it and use it to solve very real problems that are faced by people all over the world.

So so my my role is to help create content and yeah, just to help put out podcasts. We're getting ready to launch a couple of podcasts. One of our first episodes will be with we sat down with Pastor Doug Wilson and kind of talk with him for about an hour about Bitcoin and all kinds of things.

And there's a money quote near the end of it that we're definitely going to be leveraging just as we talk to people.

But you know what? I think that's a really cool idea. I've heard a lot of subjects that Doug has talked about and everyone wants to hear his take on stuff. I've never heard him talk about crypto or digital currency really at all.

So, yeah, everyone who's listening, we'll make sure we link up to that so people can go listen to that because I think that's going to be a good conversation. I'm glad to see him embracing it. We talked about this a little bit the first time you were on in October, but I've found, OK, for for all of these Christians and like my parents that were raising me in the 80s and 90s and they were part of the moral majority and they were the government's oppressive and they won't let us homeschool and they won't let us do all these things.

And oh, my gosh, we're in the mid 80s. We were 10 years removed from the gold standard. And I remember my dad talking about it. I'll tell you what, that generation seems to have the most trepidation about crypto or more specifically Bitcoin, which we can talk about how you specifically focus on Bitcoin because it's truly decentralized.

And I go, why aren't these that generation, especially accepting this with open arms is decentralized. There's really no government interference. There's a finite amount of it. It's everything you want on the gold standard plus mobile and better, better, more secure.

And I wonder in your in your kind of travels, I know you do comics, write books, you're doing podcasts, creating content. Have you come across that that maybe even the younger and older generation than us?

And I'll just loop myself in there with you, even though I think you're a couple of years younger than me. Have you found that they that they're becoming a little more accepting of this or are they still kind of standoffish and bullish on the.

Crypto and in Bitcoin specifically? Yeah. And honestly, it is changing because there are there's people out there doing awesome work to help bridge the gap and to help people understand it better. I mean, there's a girl, Natalie Brunel, who I mean, she's going on.

She's going on like Fox, you know, different Fox shows. I mean, just kind of basically helping people understand it, helping separate, you know, fact from fiction as far as things that get said by politicians like Elizabeth Warren, you know, all kinds of people who want to bring up all kinds of and push back on Bitcoin in all kinds of ways.

I mean, you have you had a number of Bitcoiners go on Tucker Carlson show. So the more that there's there's Bitcoiners kind of getting out there and explaining what Bitcoin is and what it isn't, I think people are becoming more and more open to it.

I think specifically, and this is one of the things that I brought up with with Doug in the podcast we did with him was stuff like the craziness that happened during COVID, you know, during lockdowns, the stuff that happened with the Canadian trucker situation.

When you start seeing just governments and politicians, whether it's state governments or national governments, whatever it is, you know, leveraging the the dollar banking system to punish free speech and to, you know, as a way to lash out at political opponents for holding different opinions that were, you know, normative and good up until five minutes ago.

I think that's that's another that's a value proposition for Bitcoin that people are are responding to. And I think are just going to respond to more and more as as you know, as that gets talked about more broadly.

And so that's that's part of what we're trying to do is help people think about, you know, what are the implications of this? I said one of the things I said to Doug was, hey, like, I know you guys have been saving for years to be able to build a building.

They don't want to go into debt. They don't want to do all these things and like, praise God. But like Doug doesn't Doug preaches the full counsel of God's word. So Doug says things that in this day and age, it's not hard to imagine, you know, them getting debanked from whatever bank they're a part of.

And the you know, the way that the banking system works is they can just snap their fingers and you're cut off from access. Now, can you get that back via the courts? Well, sure. But in the meantime, you don't have access to your money.

And so just that reality of your money in the traditional, you know, fiat monetary banking system, like your money doesn't belong to you the moment. Like there's a lot of people just don't understand what's going on when they put their money in a bank.

Like you when you put your money in a bank account, you sign paperwork to say you're loaning that money to the bank. And while they they they're obligated to give it back to you at some point, they're not obligated to give it to you at the moment you want it.

And so this is this is kind of what we did to talk about another recent thing that was in the news. You had the Silicon Valley Bank thing. Yeah, these these bank runs on these banks where there's nowhere near enough money in these banks for everyone to actually get the money.

And that's a result of policies that were instituted during COVID. There are zero, zero reserve requirements for any of these banks right now. So they don't have to hold any, any cash in their banks.

And so, yeah, on top of already fractional, fractional lending for decades.

And decades, a hundred percent. And so literally now there's there's no there. These banks are not required to hold any of your money in their physical locations because so much of what we do every day is is, you know, we handle and access our money digitally.

So we use things like PayPal and we use our debit cards on websites and we're not interacting with them. So I just think a lot of people are taking for granted that they understand the way that the the monetary system works and they're taking for granted the trust that they've been able to have in the past.

And they're thinking they still live in that world, even though that world has set sail a long time ago. So Bitcoin represents one one way to adapt to the new a new reality that that we live in. And so I think the more Christians that understand it and the more Christians that see the value proposition of not as Bitcoin is this way that I'm going to make copious amounts of money, but Bitcoin is a way that I can, you know, surely have access to my money.

I think that's going to be something that more and more people appreciate as the as, you know, the.

Years go by. Well, not only surely have access to your money, but also have some religious freedom the way it looks like it's going. Like you mentioned, right to free speech, even religious folks like even secular and atheist need to understand that they can be canceled and by canceled that can go to taking money out of the bank and stopping digital funds.

I mean, you mentioned governments taking money from the Canadian truckers. Businesses were doing it. I think GoFundMe just took all the money and gave it to who they wanted.

So you had private businesses. And I think PayPal. Exactly. Something.

Similar. PayPal. Same thing. And I think the distinction we have to make, too, is once again, decentralized. I mean, Bitcoin is so scary to the U .S. government that Joe Biden signed some legislation last year and said, hey, we need to start looking into this as a as the U .S. government and switch over to digital.

And it's like, well, I don't want to centralize digital currency. I want a finite amount of crypto like Bitcoin that's backed by such an crazy encryption process. It can't be duplicated and have have a finite, you know, finite amount of that and have it decentralized.

I think that Christians need to understand. And look at I know you work with people outside of being Christians, but especially I feel like we need to get it through to their heads that this isn't the enemy.

This this is this is, I think, a common grace, a blessing of the Lord, a reprieve, if you will, on the the wickedness of this, you know, of this global world that's trying to take as much control as they can throughout countries.

And here we've been offered a reprieve that says you have a complete autonomy, almost complete autonomy, I would say when it comes to Bitcoin. Now, I think they're going to try to set some things up, gatekeepers and things like that, because it scares the crap out of them.

You can't when you can't control a currency,.

You can't control a people. A hundred percent. And so, again, and that makes sense. And so that that throws a lot of people off initially. They're like, well, they're going to gatekeep and they're going to keep.

But you don't have to go through gatekeepers. You can do peer to Bitcoin transactions the same as you do peer to peer cash transactions. And so I can use an app on my phone and that, you know, they can even if they shut down the app, there's things that I can buy that can allow me to transfer Bitcoin peer to peer in the same way that I would do with cash in a way that that gives me the same benefits of cash, but in a digital form, decentralized form.

And so, again, I just think a lot of these some of this is just technological know-how. Like, you know, we try to use people think about Bitcoin in their eyes glaze over. And, you know, but to encourage those people, you know, if you look up videos from 15, 20 years ago, there were people talking about email and their eyes glazed over.

There's people talking about all these things. And so this is just what happens always with technology. It initially seems impossible. And then five years later, it's ubiquitous. It's everywhere. You just take it for granted.

Everybody's doing it. And so I just think with, again, with Bitcoin, it just it takes time for people to understand it. But the value proposition is 100 there. This is this is what I want people to know is John Huss, you know, like Martin Luther, Calvin, all these dudes, they would be using Bitcoin if they if they existed like cryptography.

I'm actually writing something. I'm in the process of writing a short, short book about about some of these these ideas. And one of the ideas is just like cryptography is is a gift from God, like Martin Luther.

He would be leveraging crypto or cryptography to the hilt because it allows him, you know, if you think about what cryptography is, it's actually it's actually really profound from a theological from a theological level.

If you think about like, what did Jesus do? Jesus told it revealed himself to certain people and not to others. He told the truth to certain people and not to others. Jesus told certain people who he healed.

Don't tell anybody. Don't tell people. So what is what is going on? Jesus is trying to he wants to package the truth and give it to certain people at the expense of giving it to other people. You know, this is this is where our minions have lots of problems, because, you know, like it doesn't make sense if your presupposition is if you assume Jesus is trying to reach as many people at one time as possible.

There's lots of things that Jesus does that don't make sense. But this and so what I would say is that cryptography does something very similar. Cryptography is designed to protect information so that certain people can access it and other people can't.

And this is a good and godly use for, you know, it's a good and godly thing to do. This is prophecy. This is what prophecy is. You know, God goes and talks to the prophet and tells reveals himself to the prophet, tells his plan to the prophet and then tells the prophet to go and tell it to the people.

God didn't just go to all those people. He sent the prophet to do it. And so there's something very similar going on with cryptography more broadly, where you can, you know, cryptograph, you can encrypt the message and send it so that nobody can access it unless they have the encrypted key.

And so there's this is already being leveraged by, you know, to send, you know, information into closed countries where it's illegal to be a Christian. And the fact that we could apply this thing to money is an incredible gift that, again, if we were, if this was the revolution or the Reformation, this is exactly the type of tool that the reformers would have used to, you know, to get their message out across the world.

Sure. If nothing else to fund their trips out of the country away from the Pope, who was trying to.

Burn them alive at the time. Right. A hundred percent. And so and how are you going to pay? How are you going to pay your printing to get your books printed and all these things like this? It's exactly the type of thing.

So, again, we look at Bitcoin. It's this strategic, timely tool that God has has, you know, given us so that we can solve some of the specific challenges that we're facing right now. I don't think Bitcoin is a panacea.

It's not the second coming of Jesus. It's not going to fix every problem, but it's a useful and good tool that solves targeted, very important issues that we're that we really are facing.

What the Conference Will Cover

Okay. So outside of making content and promoting Bitcoin and kind of educating, are you in the investing space at all? And maybe this will lead us into the conference that's coming up in May. Are you teaching people maybe how to invest with it at all or how to use it to make money?

Or is it strictly educational in the way of how to start using it as a daily or weekly or monthly currency?

Yeah, basically, and this is where this is where people get like, yeah, they just assume, right. They see, thank God for Bitcoin. Their eyes glaze over and they're like, they're like the level of cringe I cannot handle.

And so, you know, we're like, okay, you know, again, we did that. We did it to provoke a response. We put that, you know, very somewhat cringe name on it. But no, our point is basically we just want to help people understand what money is, like, what is money and why does that matter?

And so like, that's a big part of this is again, it's like, it's people who you have people, you talk about theology and people like, no, no, I don't want to talk about theology. I want to get down to the practical level.

And of course, like the practical is really important, but the theology matters, like the philosophy, the ideas behind things matter. And then being rooted in reality is really important. And so that's the first part of our conference is going to be, you know, is going to be focused on that.

I'm just talking about the philosophy and the theology behind money itself. Like what is money designed to do? And what does that have to do with the way that God has revealed himself and the way that God has designed the world?

So that's primarily what we're doing. But then also we are going to be providing like a hands-on tutorial, basic tutorial of how to use Bitcoin. Like how do I buy it? How do I interact with it? How do I transfer some to somebody else?

Like, again, a lot of these, the complexity, it seems super complex. And so people don't even get to step one. Our goal is to walk people through the step one, step two, step three, and then they'll at least be, it'll be less intimidating for them to interact with something like Bitcoin.

And then day two of the conference is all, it's all ways. We're going to be talking with groups of people who are using Bitcoin all over the world. And we're going to just be talking to them about why they, and how they are using it in the different contexts that they're in.

So for example, we're going to have one, one panel where there's going to be four missionaries on the panel. People who are actual missionaries today, helping people in the Middle East, helping people in, you know, refugee communities in the United States.

There's going to be people who are all over the world using Bitcoin to further the gospel. We have another one where it's going to end up a panel for Bitcoin in churches. What does that look like? And so we have a couple, at least two ruling elders in PCA, you know, Presbyterian churches who are Bitcoiners, who've been in Bitcoin for a long time.

Again, who are not primarily looking at Bitcoin. They're not looking at Bitcoin like this is how I'm going to get rich. It's no, like this, let's think about Bitcoin as a, you know, this is one part of a long-term, you know, diversified portfolio that is in some, in a very real sense, a type of insurance against, you know, what always has historically happened to fiat currencies, which is they go to zero.

And so, you know, Bitcoin, talking about what is the role, how should churches and, you know, both pastors and the people making the economic decisions, the financial decisions with those churches, how should they, how can they think about Bitcoin as one part of what they're doing?

So we're trying to do a balance of both, the balance of the philosophy of these things and the practical, tangible ways to.

Implement them. So day one, more of the philosophy, day two, kind of the way to implement them. It like this would be good for elders, pastors, leaders, business owners. I mean, if you are any of those influence influencing spaces to get information and to have it in Miami, it sounds like it's going to be, I'm looking at hail up here.

Boy, if I could get down there, I would like to see the weather, see the friends and talk about crypto for a couple of days.

Yeah. So yeah, I got some awesome speakers. Yeah. So that, and that's been, that's been something that honestly is, has kind of blown us away. So I mean, we, we had some really good speakers last year.

We had like Tim Tebow stopped by again, Tim Tebow, like he's not, he's not like this, the biggest Bitcoin guy, but so with him, we just were like, Hey, let's talk about stewardship. Like this guy has more resources than the vast majority of us will ever dream about having.

And so, and he's like very vocal about his faith and very vocal about, you know, trying to leverage resources that God's put in his hands for God's glory and the good of people all over the world. So we talked with him, but in this case, this year, one of the people who I've, you mentioned him, one of the people I've been following for years, you know, been a big fan of the, of the podcast has been C .R. Wiley.

You know, read his books, listened to a bunch of his podcasts and just really appreciated him. And so I just reached out and asked him if he'd be interested in coming and he's like, absolutely. And so, so again, so he's, you know, he's going to be speaking.

He's one of our, one of our headline speakers. The other one we invited, and I think they were going to come, they, they, they, they would love to come was, was Doug, Doug Wilson and Ben Merkel. I've spoken to Ben a number of times about new St. Andrews, new St. Andrews accepts Bitcoin.

So I was talking to them, wanted to have them there to talk about the role of, of money and education and to have, you know, Doug just speak just more broadly, but Doug's grandson is getting married one of the days of the conference.

So, so they couldn't be there. So hopefully, hopefully next year we'll get him there, but yeah, no, it's so good. And you know,.

I mean, CR is such a, so, so learn, learn it. And when he comes on the podcast, he's got five different ways to look at things. I'd be really interested in his talk down there and how he's going to talk about Bitcoin and digital currency.

And he's a, obviously he is a historian not just in church history, but through, you know, throughout global history. So that, that is a good main speaker to have down there, but I mean, you're going to be talking, can you, can you give us a little hint that we don't want you to give away too much, but like, what are you going to.

Hit on down there when, when it's your turn to talk? Yeah. So, so basically my, my talk is going to be on a theology of money. And so again, one of the things that I basically say all the time is just that people, Christians have done a fantastic job about talking about the morality of what we do with money.

Like even in the last hundred years, like we talk about stewardship and we talk about, you know, using your ways or using the resources that God has put in your hands for, you know, for, for eternal purposes.

Like where, you know, what are you, how can you, how can you invest the resources and specifically money that, that God has put in your hands to, you know, expand his kingdom, you know, to, to preach the gospel here, you know, all over the world.

How can you do that? But there's another aspect of things that another aspect of money and something that Christians ought to think about when it comes to money that, that hasn't been talked about anywhere near as much over the over specifically like the last hundred years in the United States.

And that's the ethics of the ethical concerns of money production itself. So what are the, what are the, what are the moral things? What are the moral considerations that need to happen when you think about you know, just like the, the creation of money itself.

So why is, why is this matter? Because there's fundamentally, there's fundamentally two different ways throughout history that people have looked at money. One is that money is, is the product, money is a product that, that has a cost associated with the production of it.

And, and, and by having fixed costs associated with it it roots itself in the world that actually exists. Now here, that's all sounds highfalutin. Here's, here's, here's an example. So for, for a long time, gold and silver has been used as money.

Now why? Gold and silver has properties that basically makes it, it allows, you know, it lasts for a long time. There's a relative, relative scarcity involved. It, you know, it's, it's easy to, to imprint a, you know, an image of somebody.

It's easier to distinguish what is real silver versus what is, you know, a real silver or gold versus what is not real silver or gold. And so, and then the other, another side of this is that the gold and silver requires production costs.

So I have to pay people to go out into the world, to dig up the gold and silver, to process it. I have to, you know, build machines or buy machines that help process, help that production process. So there is a, there is a relationship to put it in Christian parlance.

There's a relationship between sowing and reaping. I have to actually sow real world effort, energy costs, whatever it is in order to produce gold, gold currency, or gold coins, or silver coins at the end of the day.

That's one way of looking at the world. The other way of looking at that, that has happened throughout time is that governments or central banks have said, we're going to create fiat currency, which is basically, it's money that only has value because we say so.

And so what that means is we're going to take this piece of paper that is literally, I mean, can cost a fraction of a penny. We're going to take this piece of paper, we're going to put ink on it. And on some of them, we're going to put tens.

On other ones, we're going to put hundreds. What's the difference between the $10 bill and the $100 bill? Really, it's just a little bit more ink. It's the only functional difference between the production of those two things.

And what that does is fiat currency, the paper fiat currency enables governments to expand their power with very little cost. And so functionally, what that does is it allows governments to act like gods.

It allows them to say, because again, who creates value out of thin air? Only God. Only God can speak and then real, tangible, valuable things are created. Governments can't do that. People are not gods.

But fiat currencies have enabled governments to act like gods, to functionally be gods. And part of what comes with that is by creating as much money, they can create as much money as they want to. And then by having that money, they can then go out and subsidize whatever message, whatever idea that they want to subsidize.

So we see this in the form of, I mean, the transgender insanity, the LGBT, all that stuff. Why has that been able to, those ideas, how have they gotten so widespread throughout the world? Well, it's because the United States has the ability to produce money to incentivize those kinds of ideas.

They reward people. They create schools. The government, most people are educated in public schools. They give money to those schools and then they control what those teach. And so by doing that, by controlling and subsidizing certain messages and ideas at the expense of others, the governments are creating their own reality.

They're creating a world according to their own image and their own likeness, whatever they want. It's a world where they're the gods ruling over it, who have ultimate authority in doing all these things.

So again, those are two fundamentally different ways to look at the world. One looks at money and says, we who are creating the money are people. We're created in God's image. We are stewards, not gods.

And so we have to abide, but to create money, we are going to abide by the rules that God has designed the world with, which is the law of sowing and reaping. In the book of Galatians, the apostle Paul goes so far as to say, God is not mocked for what a man sows that will he also reap.

So Paul goes so far to say that sowing and reaping is so hardwired into the world that to deny it is to mock God. We see Jesus saying God will give to each one according to his works. We see that there's a relationship between sowing and reaping, that this is an instrumental part of God's design in the world.

Why couldn't God just forgive us for our sins? Why couldn't he just say your sins are forgiven? Why did he have to send Jesus? It's because actions have consequences. And so fiat currency denies that reality.

It basically allows governments to reap where they haven't sown. And it allows governments to act like they are unlimitedly, they are all powerful, omnipotent and can create whatever reality they want.

And so that has had and continues to have awful consequences. Here at home, here in the United States, but also all over the world, it's way worse. Because there's lots of places that don't have a currency that's as widely used as the U .S. dollar.

And so, yeah, all these factors really, really make it very difficult on people around the world.

I would argue too that they violate the Ten Commandments too when they inflate currency on purpose and steal value from me. Money is nothing more than labor monetized. Labor is my time. And when you devalue or inflate through inflationary practices, the dollar, you're stealing that from me.

You're stealing time, which is the most limited resource that I have or the most unknown resource, right? Yes. So I definitely see the argument against fiat currency because I grew up in that family, right?

My father talking about, why are we on the gold standard or what's going on? So I said years ago, geez, we're just playing this big game where dollars are just monopoly money. They're no longer backed by a federal note where I could, what was it, 50 years ago, go into the bank and say, hey, I want $1 worth of silver for this.

It's a federal note that we're off of that. But what would you say to detractors as we wrap this up here too? Detractors that might say, well, maybe crypto is the exact same way. It just has value because other people think it has value.

We know that there's scarcity in the blockchain, but why couldn't someone argue, say, well, gold or silver has a physical use in the real world. Bitcoin doesn't or crypto doesn't. You're just doing the same thing the fiat company is doing, but digitally.