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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

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Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

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White call now at 602 973 460 to or toll -free across the

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United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

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James white And good afternoon, welcome to the dividing line on Thursday afternoon, what is they the 19th,

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I believe something like that It's all I know is 2009 is flying by even faster than 2008 did let's get right to it a couple comments real quick on the the fact that I have

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Single -handedly made the evangelical textual criticism blog an interesting place for a couple days It rarely is but I'm afraid that That brief comment that I made that dr.

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Tommy Wasserman responded to has I think exposed some things in fact,

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I just happened to look and Maurice Robinson has posted on the blog.

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He is one of the Contributors. He's not a very regular contributor. I mean he does comment, but he doesn't write a whole lot of blogs himself and so I was thankful that despite the fact dr.

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Robinson I don't share the same viewpoint and textual criticism as far as he promotes the Byzantine majority

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Text platform and things like that. I have done everything in my power to be fair in my representation of his position

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I really appreciate the the impetus I think that exists for dr.

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Robinson's position I understand what he's saying I don't I don't find it a compelling argument personally, but I am very

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No one has ever found me going after somebody who Embraces that perspective and I appreciate the comment that he put on the initial

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Wasserman article going after me Where he just basically said y 'all missed the point you didn't get it

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And they still don't want to get it and it's a little bit scary I'll be perfectly honest with you reading some of the comments of some of the people there.

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It's a little bit scary to me because There there just seems to be some some really some some attitudes that do not bode well for the textual critical communities

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Connection to a wider scope of study in a white wider fields And especially the use the term evangelical in evangelical textual criticism blog

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And that's basically I think what dr. Robinson is saying here This was just posted today, and I I've just saw it just for we went on the air

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So I want to read it for you, and and then I've got two completely different topics

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To go to after this so it will be a very eclectic dividing line today pun fully intended

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I Was about to post the following within the soon -to -disappear comment from Greenlee thread that I initiated

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But in view of all the vitriol that seems to have affected the ETC blog recently it perhaps is best to post this more prominently

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Now let me just mention. I Mentioned the last dividing line, and I post the video of this That I had

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I was offended. I guess I'm just gonna have start using the terminology of our day It seems that you know

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When I tried to offer a possibility as to why dr. Wasserman Completely missed my point

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I raised the issue of the language problem. He's Swedish I'm not there's differences between our languages

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Maybe the syntax is different It is truly offensive to me just absolutely offensive to me that there are people on the evangelical text criticism blog

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Who called that mockery? Folks if I'm gonna mock somebody I'm gonna do it very clearly you're not gonna have to worry about Whether you're figuring this out or not.

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It's gonna be very very clear Okay, I was not did not ever have the intention of and am offended anyone would think that I would

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Mock dr. Wasserman if I'm gonna mock somebody will be Steve Ray It's just it's amazing that the basically if you're a conservative believer

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Anyone can attribute anything to you, and that's fair game But then if you try to respond even kindly even with respect even try to get the subject back on the on the on the track

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Everything can be said about you and of course there are those people out there that just really have personal issues with me

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I guess for whatever reasons that have you know go run had gone running over to that blog

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And they're just gonna have to change their their Policy and not allow allow anonymous posters

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Because there are people attacking me personally, and you know how there are people out there They don't they don't have the guts to call this program.

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They would never face me in public They would never debate that you know, but they're very brave behind keyboards there's a whole bunch of them like that and They're sad little people and so they go running over there and spew their venom toward toward me and so on service

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But you know if it's anonymous, it's anonymous You know it it should be given exactly as much weight as well anything anonymous is given so anyway

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I Mentioned on Tuesday that I had Greenlee's new book coming that had sort of prompted a lot of this

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And it did arrive the text of New Testament. It's a small little book of course the other two

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It's predecessors scribe scroll in scripture, and then there was there was another green one that was quite old

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From back in the may have been originally in 60s And I did look up the context of one of the statements that even

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I agreed didn't make much sense and as I Sort of had a hunch there is a context to it

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On page 117 I'm gonna go back to Robinson in a second, but I wanted to cover this Page 117 was the citation one of the things that Elliot went after Greenlee on was this

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But here's the context the list could be extended for longer than anyone would care to read I present it for a specific reason there are those who insist that some of the manuscripts most scholars consider

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Reliable have in fact been intentionally corrupted to our omit or weaken important doctrines of the

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Christian faith he's responding to a specific allegation That's probably coming from the

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King James only camp I can't tell you how many times I've heard people say well Vatican s and Sinaiticus and the papyri etc

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They've all been changed by the Alexandrian cultists who are running around in history blah blah blah blah I Offer three points rebuttal to this claim one as we have just noted by far the most variants have no theological

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Significance at all furthermore and here's the statement the vast majority the most theologically significant passages in New Testament have no significant textual variations among the few variants

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That do have theological significance scribes have sometimes apparently attempted to move the text in an Orthodox rather than a heretical direction

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So he's talking about specific manuscripts and the specific charge that there have been heretics who have been trying to change them now

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I still would read I would restate the the statement itself

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But by isolating it the way that Elliot did he really did make Greenlee say something that Greenlee wasn't saying and that's the one where He was saying that he's testing the gullibility of his readers

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Elliot's review stunk. That's all there is to it Let's let's just be honest. It was biased Prejudiced and was nasty.

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Let's just what what is what is wrong in saying? Hey, look at this stuff when you call Bengals statement pablum you talk about placating

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Fundamentalists and stuff your biases are showing But it seems to me that for many in academia today the only people have biases or evangelicals

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Conservatives everybody else is just simply a scholar and a real one at that that seems to be the attitude and it's

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Well, it's bad attitude. So I continue on with Maurice Robinson on the

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Greenlee blog comments one Brian asked isn't the problem modern text critics have with Greenlee's book is that it is interpreted and presented in light of biblical theism and inspiration question mark

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Indeed, that was my original point in referencing Elliot's severe review apart from that issue and one

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JCB also had commented Virtually everything otherwise appearing in Greenlee's book is no different than what was asserted by Wescott Hort Tregellas or most other textual critics of the past generations

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Please note that because the essence today is and this is one of the reasons

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I mentioned Ehrman's statement about the past 15 years being the watershed the The busiest time period and that's because of a fundamental paradigm shift

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I've even been criticized because the comments I made and in the King James only controversy, which was written in late 1994 represented my training my seminary training in 1980s and people still thought the original text was relevant back then and so on and so forth and so there has been a major paradigm shift and if I've helped to Let people outside the you know small sphere

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Understand that know that recognize that and go hey Why is this happening and is there really a reason for this or is this just a hijacking of the field?

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Well, great wonderful, but that's what he's saying. Well, it's gotten Hort Tregellas these others, you know, we saw it in the

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Ehrman debate The way that he could just so well, I'm sorry arrogantly dismiss

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Kurt Allen the way he did And not even not even provide a meaningful argument against his his defense of tenacity

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But just simply dismiss him. Well, no one believes that anymore. What do you mean? No one? Well, no one that I consider relevant

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That's that's the kind of argumentation that you're getting from from the Academy today, and that's that's not overly

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Overly useful there has been a change we continue on from an evangelical standpoint

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There should be no problem with the theological assertions of a respected evangelical text critical scholar

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Which Greenlee most certainly is in relation to the revelation inspiration or even providential preservation of the bulk of the

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New Testament text So long as that scholar does not use his theological beliefs to force a particular choice of text in those places where significant variants occur

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I agree wholeheartedly. I Would simply add to that the fact that and I think dr.

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Robinson would agree with me on this that you cannot ignore the

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Theological worldview that people bring to their scholarship in their study of any field especially that of the

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New Testament Bart Ehrman has a theological worldview It may be one of Antichristianity and it is all you've got to do is look at his new book and you will see that But the fact of the matter is he has a worldview.

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Why does his get a pass but conservative Christians? Well, you you can't do that That's pablum.

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That's a placating the fundamentalists blah blah blah blah blah blah That's anyway

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Go back to Robinson here Greenlee as an evangelical textual critical scholar clearly favors the

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NA UBS critical text as an evangelical text critical scholar I differ widely from that perspective Yet Greenlee and I both hold similar theological positions relative the overall nation the

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New Testament Greek text including all the above -mentioned factors One would think that a proper interrelation of theological belief and New Testament textual criticism position

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Would be heartily embraced and endorsed by at least evangelical scholars

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Rather than criticized so severely in what supposedly is a house filled with friends end quote

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Well, I almost feel badly Doing this dr. Robinson, but amen that is my agreement probably isn't something that anybody wants these days, but exactly

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We both see the exact same thing. We don't have to stand shoulder -to -shoulder in our in our viewpoint of how you do textual criticism and the results you get to recognize that there has been a fundamental shift in the paradigm here and Evangelicals had better wake up because when

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Bart Ehrman stands before an audience and in essence mocks the work of Dan Wallace in the

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Center for the study of New Testament manuscripts and accuses them of dishonesty in Raising funds to photograph manuscripts when he then this is

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Ehrman's can Consistent and constant misrepresentation of us when we say the variants don't matter

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And of course, we've never said that none of us would study the subject if we thought they were irrelevant the issue is obviously

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Ehrman keeps changing the meaning of Don't matter to makes it impossible to know the original that's where the difference lies

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And I think most people are starting to see that anyway And maybe someday he'll actually be forced to defend that position rather than just using mockery as his as his argumentation but anyway, if he can stand up there and Make that kind of comment if he can stand up if Elliot can identify as pablum the fundamental beliefs of all

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Evangelical at least used to be 15 years ago evangelical textual critical scholars If Ehrman can put out books like he's putting out

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Jesus interrupted which are which are Magazine level at the grocery store level attacks on the

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Christian faith and yet just given a pass Well, it doesn't affect his textual critical activities.

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It doesn't Don't be naive. Of course, it does if you're making your money off of attacking

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Christianity Maybe someone might want to raise their hand go you know that might have something to do with what he's doing in helping to push textual criticism away from the restoration of the text of the

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New Testament I mean, I hope that there's not going to be any further additions of Metzger's book with Ehrman's name on it

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I hope there's not a fifth edition where Ehrman basically takes over and just you know wipes it out But if he does if he does that then

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I I would like to suggest something The only honest thing Bart Ehrman could do would be to take the word

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Restoration out of the subtitle the book because it doesn't believe in it. He doesn't believe you can restore the text of New Testament It's just corrupted period can't know that's it

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That's it. So that's that's where he goes from there. So Like I said, at least

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I've gotten the the discussions going on the blog And I noticed that the moderators had to take a few off again from these these anonymous people the we know who they are

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Not not necessarily identity wise but the kind of people that are out there They're the people who you know, follow me around wherever I post a comment and then they just you know

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Start doing the the ad hominem stuff and the people who listen to this program and I you're here

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You're listening to me right now on the podcast whatever else, you know who you are and you don't have the guts to ever face me

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You don't have the guts to pick up a phone Because you just you just you just don't you know that and so we you know,

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I'm sorry those folks are out there But that's that's the way it is. All right, so there is the textual critical subject.

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Let's put the clutch in real deep here and shift gears big time

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Because I would like to spend a few moments Discussing what

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I discussed last evening. I did not bring my little faithful Casio with me to church last night and I had the

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Wednesday evening service at the church and I really

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Enjoyed Going through just a short section of the 119th psalm and I wanted to repeat some of the comments

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I made them and then we're gonna put the clutch in real deep again and completely shift topics after that Again to make it the most eclectic program we possibly can

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That way we can try to pull in the big audiences by talking about textual criticism the 119th psalm and then

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Islam later on oh, yeah, there you go, that's how you That's how you build your

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Your castles in your kingdom. Yes indeed. Well, not quite Psalm 119 for those of you who don't know this

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Now I don't have to do this when I fill in on Wednesday nights but it is our tradition at the

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Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church to go through the Psalter on Wednesday evenings and That takes a certain period of time it doesn't it that you might go well that would take exactly three years.

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Well, not quite because we Break the 119 psalm up into its constituent parts.

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And So it's actually a little bit longer than the 150 would would give you but it's about it

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Does figure out to about three years or so is how it ends up working. So There are a few interruptions around the holidays and things like that But that's about how it works and we've as long as I've been there

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I got there in 1989 So I've been there for my goodness as of this July. It'll be 20 years and for 20 years, we've done the exact same thing and when you get down with Psalm 150 you go back to Psalm 1 and Pastor Frye interestingly enough

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Does not keep his notes In fact, he doesn't use notes any longer when he turned 60.

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He decided he needed a new challenge. And so he stopped using notes and Figured that would be even tougher than the way he was doing it before because now

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I had to memorize all of his cross references and things like that, but he felt that he needed that kind of a Of a challenge and so he doesn't keep his notes.

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And so each time he hits a psalm, you know He doesn't have what he did before now. He might remember but I don't know too many folks who remember real clearly what they did three three and a half four years ago in preaching through a text and If you've preached that text five six times before it's gonna be even harder to remember exactly how you handled it

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So you can sort of come at it with? With some some consistency there

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And some freshness. So anyway, I decided to look at Psalm 119 and Begin at section 73 there were some

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I thought Extremely important statements that are relevant to some of the things I've been thinking about to these days

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And so I wanted to share those with you here on the dividing line today Psalm 119 73 your hands made me and Fashioned me

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Give me understanding that I may learn your commandments. I Pointed out that That is a statement.

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That is a spirit born statement What do I mean by that? Well consider the very nature of idolatry itself it involves

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Fundamentally a denial that I am God's creature that I have been made and fashioned by God and It truly takes the work of the

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Spirit of God within us to cause us to say these words Your hands have made and fashioned me

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This is a recognition a recognition of our creatureliness It is a recognition that we are not what our society says today the random result of chance mutation over time

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Purposeless creatures who live and struggle for but a little while and then die instead we are creatures who have been made by a sovereign

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God and When you look at the the Hebrew text It makes reference to two actions on the part of God here

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You made me it's a standard word for to make a saw

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You made me but then it's a it's a different word when it talks about Fashioning to Establish it's more.

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It's more directed toward purpose and form and So God has made us he's our creator, but he has also determined who we are what?

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skills and gifts we have where we're going to fit in his plan and We sometimes rebel at that we want to change who we are we are dissatisfied with the physical body that we have been given with the circumstances with the

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The role in life that has been given to us by God But the psalmist recognizes that the

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Creator is all wise and has knowledge of things far beyond what we have and so Excuse me in light of that in light of his recognition of His created nature and the existence of the

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Creator himself The psalmist can then say give me understanding that I may learn your commandments

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Give me understanding that I may learn your commandments Here is one who recognizes that God's commandments are supernatural in nature that is

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He does not stand as so many in our society do today as arrogant creatures denying their creator approaching the revelation of God with hubris

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With the idea that I am Able without the assistance of God without the assistance of his spirit to have true knowledge of God's commandments of God's law of God's words

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That is an attitude. That is very much prevalent in our society today, of course and in the

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Academy But it is not a Christian attitude Here the psalmist says give me understanding.

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I need you to open my eyes to observe wonderful things out of your law,

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I Recognize my need of the ministry of the Spirit if I am going to truly understand your word your

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Commandments are spiritual Your commandments require that you give me understanding

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This is as I said an attitude that clearly Demonstrates that the psalmist is being led by the

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Spirit and recognizes his true nature the next verse

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May those who fear you see me and be glad Because I wait for your word

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Here is a desire on the part of the psalmist that those who fear

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God There's a there's throughout the Psalms. I was listening this morning as I was writing

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I put the 119th and then the next about 10 Psalms or so on my iPod as I was listening and there is this theme about those who fear you and those who do not fear you let those who fear you come near to me that those who

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Do not fear you do not keep your commandments Stay away from me there. This is that this is a fellowship concept.

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I Want to be amongst the people of God and and those who fear you I want to be an example to them

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I want to gladden the hearts encourage the hearts of others Because I wait for your word.

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I Wait for your word even in affliction as we're gonna see in the next verse the psalmist is experiencing affliction

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But the psalmist has waited for or hoped in God's Word and so by by patiently enduring by clinging to the promises of the scriptures the psalmist wants to be an

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Encouragement to the people of God now again, I think sometimes we struggle with this in In our society because we are so individualistic we have such a weak almost at times non -existent view of The Christian community

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But I know in in my experience and and I should tell people this more often, but I know in my church.

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I Look at some of the people that were there before I was who've been there for decades upon decades and I am encouraged when

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I see them I'm encouraged when I see them They By their steadfastness by the fact

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I know they've gone through difficulties and trials and tribulations and Yet they remain faithful are an encouragement to me

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I think of that Steve Green song from back when I was younger and back in the 1980s that talks about We want to leave a witness for those who will become becoming behind us

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May we be faithful so that they will be encouraged. That's an awesome Attitude to have it recognizes our role within the people of God within the fellowship of the

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Saints. And so When we hope in the Word of God, it's not just an individualistic thing. We are

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Encouraging others as well, and then I'll just do one more verse and then we'll we'll take our break verse 75

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I Know that's the first word in the Hebrew as well. I know yada.

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I know Yahweh That your judgments are righteous and that in faithfulness you have afflicted me now again

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These are spirit -borne words The the psalmist knows

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He he isn't just hoping he knows something about the character and the nature of Yahweh that Yahweh's judgments are

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Righteous they are zedek zedekah righteousness He knows

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That they are righteous because God himself is righteous that is righteousness is the very foundation of his throne

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Everything he does is Straight it is right. It is righteous there is no unrighteousness in him and When you are convinced of the nature of your

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God That then can become the foundation for being able to say that last phrase in Faithfulness you have afflicted me now.

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This probably isn't the favorite text the folks over On the channel between 20 and 22 here in the

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Phoenix area because they don't believe that God ever afflicts any believer They do not believe that that what happens in their lives

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Is in any way shape or form relevant to the

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Sovereignty of God the purpose of God they want to insulate God from all of this

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But the psalmist won't have that Because the psalmist recognizes if you separate

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God out from what happens in my life, then you have likewise removed the very purposes of God you have taken from me

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Romans 8 that God is working all things for my good That there is reason for my affliction.

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There is reason for my suffering and I could start preaching on this, but I will try to avoid doing so in Faithfulness you have afflicted me what

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God brings into our lives Whether it be discipline and There are so many times we need that or the affliction that will cause us to grow in our

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Christ likeness Become more like Christ God does it in faithfulness to his promises and I Know that there are people listening who have gone through some awfully difficult things and There might be some who would say well, it's real easy to say but unless you've been there.

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Well, I've been there I've been with the people who've been there. I know and It is such an encouragement to see believers who walk through the fiery trials and Yet they recognize the faithfulness of their

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God in having walked through those fiery trials with them These words come from the

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Spirit of God and They represent a soul a heart that knows

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God's truth beautiful stuff The the the Bible's filled with it.

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We so frequently go flying right past it there is this idea of in the Bible strange that might be of meditating upon the

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Word of God of Actually turning off all the sounds and the distractions and meditating upon the

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Word of God and considering these things I would encourage you to do so eight seven seven seven five three three, three, four one.

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We're gonna shift gears Right after this break. We'll be right back How the pilgrims progress it's not an easy way it's a journey

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Following Jesus It's a walk of praise Bible works 8 is here full of innovative and essential tools users will have a hundred and ninety plus Bible translations 35 original language text and morphology databases 29 lexical grammatical references and an abundance of additional resources

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Dr James White says Bible works is the best Bible software available I have used Bible works software for years and each new release has brought many new and useful tools to the program

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This is the program that runs 24 -7 on my office computer and it is the one that's running on my laptop when

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Order your copy of Bible works at a omen org and for a limited time You'll receive free shipping and a free mp3 download of the white airmen debate

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The Trinity is a basic teaching of the

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Christian faith. It defines God's essence and describes how he relates to us James White's book the

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You can order the Forgotten Trinity by going to our website at a omen org Hello everyone, this is

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Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program

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The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every

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Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin Alpha and Omega Ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses

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Man is sinful and God is holy That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior?

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We are to come before the Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well

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Support Alpha and Omega Ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.

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Thank you And welcome back to the dividing line

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Sort of hard to have a lot of energy during that rejoin music just sort of like so how you doing today?

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Sipping some lemonade You sort of want to sing along But we can't do that because we have important things to do shifting gears

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Like I said putting putting the clutch all the way down and going from fifth gear into reverse

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It's a big change big shift, but hey, it's okay It's a little bit

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This is what if you want to know what it's like to be me What you probably don't want to know what it's like to be me, but if you want to know what it's like to be me

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I've always thought if if if I ever get run over by a truck or something Which is a possibility when I'm riding my bike bicycle that is

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Which I did this morning. I did 42 and a third miles and that gives me a fair amount of time to be listening

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Hey, is that as our studio audience out there? We have a studio audience because I don't recognize that person

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Who is that that would be the vice president of alpha Omega ministries vice president we have one

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I think we do I think it looks like he's picking up some decent stuff there.

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Yeah, he's got you know He's got the airmen debate on CD, and he just saw the diagloss no no no

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I showed him the diagloss That's exactly right well you get that diagloss there man all right way to go

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We're gonna be able to have coffee tomorrow. That's great, so Not that I actually drink it, but Anyway, sorry about that digression there.

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You know this is a live program, and so you have to put up with things like that anyhow If I were ever and Sean's a rider like I am

36:55

He's not getting very many miles in right now, but hey, that's okay but If I were to get run over by a truck and the police were to find my my iPod shuffle

37:06

They would find the weirdest Selection of stuff this morning. Here's what

37:11

I listen to this morning. It started off with Psalms 119 through 129 a

37:18

Transition to the book of Hebrews and then that transitioned to Sheikh yasser

37:23

Qadhi and the fourth CD in his series on Tawheed On the previous ride

37:32

I had listened to the Frank Turek Christopher Hitchens debate And also some more of yasser

37:38

Qadhi at that particular time, and I think some Arabic vocabulary. Can you imagine? The folks at CSI for example listening through something like that Wondering what in the world

37:49

I was I was up to listening to stuff like that, but that's that's What it's like to be me which is to be weird

37:56

You would think I'd be listening to up -tempo music to help me get up those hills and stuff like that Generally lectures are not overly helpful in in getting up the steep inclines

38:07

But I've gotten used to it over time. So that's what I was listening to and today I Was listening to Sheikh yasser

38:14

Qadhi. I have mentioned him before I Have actually played some sections in years past from some of the things

38:24

Some of the lectures that I was listening to and I've had some contact now with with yasser

38:30

Qadhi, and it has been very pleasant Interaction, and I'm very thankful for that.

38:36

I have honestly told him that I have learned a tremendous amount from his lectures not just the fact that he has tremendously excellent

38:46

Arabic pronunciation That I would along with my Arabic tutor seek to emulate when

38:52

I use the language but likewise I have found him to Be have a lot of the same concerns that I have in in his community that I have in my own that is he expresses a fair amount of Discomfort with Muslims who do not take their faith seriously and with a lot of other things that I go, you know

39:21

He and I would have good conversations and hopefully in the future we'll have more of them. Anyway, I was listening to Sheikh yasser

39:29

Qadhi and he was Explaining something. I've heard him explain it in other contexts, but this was the about the fullest explanation that I had heard

39:38

It honestly is something that I would say 99 point nine nine eight percent of Christians in the world just don't know anything about so I thought you know what?

39:48

We try to educate folks on things on the dividing line give them an understanding it might help them in In their testimony and giving their own presentation of the gospel to know where people are coming from and it just helps

40:02

I think to to understand the differences between Islam and and well enunciated

40:09

Islam not necessarily the type of Islam that you get from a lot of folks but well enunciated

40:15

Islam and And And Christianity and it's it goes to two terms

40:24

The first term to understand you're going to learn a little Arabic today Is me

40:30

Thaq me Thaq is a covenant a bereith in in Hebrew And the fitra the fitra now the fitra is a little bit harder to to define

40:44

It has to do with with how God has made us from the Islamic perspective it has to do with our conscience and It is a

40:54

It's important to understand this because it explains how it is that Muslims view

41:04

The idea that we are all created as Muslims in essence when we are born our our fitra is

41:12

Consistent with Islam we believe in one God But then as we grow older our parents pervert our our understanding and they introduce traditions and we become

41:25

Jews or Christians, that's the Islamic understanding and in fact there is a statement by in the hadith by Muhammad basically stating that very thing and And so here's here's the story now,

41:40

I'm gonna give you the story as it's found in Al -Tabari When Sheikh Aser Qadhi gave this story.

41:47

He brought a number of different sources in But this is in the first volume of the history of Al -Tabari pages 304 and 305

41:59

And I think you'll find this to be interesting Let me see here, let's just I'm gonna start with 304 it says then

42:09

God rubbed Adam's back at Naman of Arafah and brought forth his

42:14

Progeny he scattered them in front of him like tiny ants He made covenants with them and had them testify against themselves

42:23

Am I not your Lord and they said yes as God says and your

42:28

Lord took from the backs of the children of Adam their Progeny and had them testify against themselves.

42:33

Am I not your Lord? They said yes then This is repeated a number of times

42:42

For example on the next page according to Ibn Waqi and Yaqub bin Ibrahim the wording being of the latter

42:51

Ibn Abbas coming in God's Word and your Lord took from the backs of the children of Adam their progeny and Had them testify against themselves.

42:57

Am I not your Lord? They said yes He rubbed Adam's back and every living being to be created by God the day of resurrection came forth at Naman Here, which is behind Arafah.

43:07

He took their covenant. Am I not your Lord? They said yes, we so testify now You hear that and you go

43:13

What are you talking about? All right, here's the idea

43:22

Allah takes Adam and he rubs his back And causes all of humanity to come forth at one time this is in the plane of This is over near Mecca and Medina where this takes place.

43:39

This is before any of us were born. This is right at the beginning our souls are there before our bodies are made and we all come forth from Adam and a

43:51

Mythic is made a covenant is made and Allah says to all these people

43:57

Am I not your Lord and it's important to notice the the word that is used there

44:05

This this am I not your Lord? They said yes, we so testify That's that the term rub.

44:12

This has to do with rubber be a sovereignty lordship Creatorship, but it's more than just creatorship.

44:17

It goes beyond just being the creator There's also rights that flow forth from this on Allah's part and So now it's interesting

44:29

Those from Atabari don't have this but if you look in some other sources there's also seemingly a division of All of those standing there into those who are going to go into Jannah and those are going to fire

44:43

Those go into paradise those are going to go into hell in essence punishment at that very time

44:50

But that's not a part of what what was being discussed and I'll tolerate that particular point now no one remembers this taking place, but it is understood that it did and that Therefore there has been this mythic this covenant that has been made between every person now

45:07

This is somewhat important because in Certain forms of Islamic theology this then becomes the basis of saying there's no such thing as an innocent person

45:17

Because we've all if we are if we are if we're coffers if we're unbelievers in Allah If we're not

45:25

Muslims then we've broken this mythic we've broken this this covenant and That then becomes a basis for saying see there's there's actually no in some people and that's

45:38

That's a bit scary, but that's where some people take this particular type of type of concept But it's important to understand the role of the fitra in the

45:49

Islamic understanding I was listening to Sheikh Yasir Qadhi and he was saying the most important element of doing tawa, which is

45:58

It's calling to Islam so it would involve both elements of evangelism and apologetics

46:05

From our perspective in our in our language it would be evangelism, but it also be apologetics.

46:12

It would be calling people to la ilaha illallah it's to say the shahada to recognize there's no

46:21

God, but Allah okay, and so He was saying the most important element in Doing this in doing tawa and calling people to Islam is to appeal to the fitra because This is a part of Every person you're talking to whoever you're talking to the fitra is there

46:43

They were a part of that covenant that that mythic that that took place It's still there and so you you need to use the fitra in your

46:54

In your apologetics in in in your calling people to to Islam Now it's interesting as a

47:02

Christian listening to this To see similarities and differences for example if the idea of All of Adam's progeny being in Adam You know you might say well.

47:17

I've just never heard it sounds so strange to me remember the book of Hebrews There is a very similar argument not on as grand a scale

47:24

But there is a very similar argument Hebrews when the argument is made that Since Levi was in the loins of Abraham when

47:33

Abraham blessed Melchizedek then the Melchizedek priesthood is superior to that of Levi and the

47:40

Levitical priesthood in the same way I think you could pretty much argue that there is a parallel here to Romans chapter 5 and The federal headship of Adam over though those who are in Adam can only receive from Adam what

47:54

Adam has and that is death those Who are in Christ? Receive from Christ what Christ has and and that is life you have two humanities presented in a federal concept there in Romans chapter 5 but then this idea of the fitra is very interesting to me because right after this

48:16

Sheikh Yasser Qadhi began talking about Philosophy and he

48:24

I Really didn't know I didn't know where to where he was going to go and thankfully my ride was long enough

48:32

Like I said 42 miles to get to the conclusion of that section and Basically, he was saying that look from the orthodox

48:40

Sunni Muslim perspective Philosophy is a waste of time

48:47

And it's just it causes you to think about things that no normal human being should ever even have to think about And Again I was

48:56

I found that very interesting especially the argumentation was put forward he addressed for example the fact that religions that believe in revelation

49:08

Emphasize that mankind Unaided now now we would differ as to why this is from the

49:14

Christian perspective. It would be due to sin It would be due to the fallen nature of man, but that religions emphasize that man unaided by his own

49:23

I think the term is Akita by his own his own mind his own thinking his own mental capacity

49:31

Will not arrive at truth that he needs the guidance that God has given and that certainly is a

49:38

Christian perspective and If you're familiar with one of the fundamental differences between evidentialist and presupposition

49:45

Apologetics it comes down to exactly that that we recognize that man in his fallen state is the enemy of God He is suppressing actively suppressing catacombs own

49:55

Romans 1 holding down the knowledge of God You can give him all the knowledge you want and he's just gonna hold that down, too and so there is a fundamental problem with man in his fallen nature, but The same time going back to this fit at our concept

50:12

It seems to have echoes of what we would call the Imago Dei the image of God We are creating image of God when you are talking to any person apologetically you are talking to a person who has been made in the image of God and that is

50:30

You know, I've said many times there is no such thing as neutral ground God created everything Any fact that is a fact is the fact that it is because God made it to be that There can be no neutral ground the person who denies the existence of God with a person who denies the

50:44

Lordship of Christ All things are what they are because they have been created by God to be what they are and where The Muslim and the

50:55

Christian have a huge departure here is that we say that in regards to Jesus Christ That he is the creator of all things

51:05

Colossians chapter 1 makes it very very clear He created all things were in heaven and earth visible or invisible

51:11

Principalities powers dominions or authorities all things created by him and for him and he is before all things in him all things consist or hold together

51:21

And so the Lordship of Christ Rububia of Christ is the fundamental assertion of the

51:32

Christian faith at that point and becomes the fundamental foundation of all of Christian epistemology and so on so forth and so we do believe that there is a fitra not that it came forth because of a

51:47

Covenant made between Adam and his progeny and Allah on the plains outside of Mecca and Medina but because man has been created in the imago

51:57

Dei the image of God and That image of God while marred by the fall is not destroyed by the fall.

52:05

We are often misrepresented by our minions for example That we are in some sense saying that the image of God has been destroyed.

52:13

That is not what we're saying at all We do believe that man is enslaved to sin and that outside of the grace of God Bringing about our freedom from that slavery to sin.

52:23

We will remain in that slavery. That is why salvation is of the Lord It is totally and completely of him not of us not of our accomplishment or anything along those lines at all

52:33

But we do believe that man has that image of God and therefore when we speak to that individual

52:40

We are speaking to a fellow creature That's why we should show respect to that fellow creature because he is made in the image of our

52:45

God And that is also where we establish quote -unquote common ground.

52:51

It's not neutral It is in fact in the assertion to that person. You are the creature of God You are a creature in rebellion against your creator, but you are the creature of God We we simply

53:05

I simply do not believe that you can use the evidentialist approach which in essence

53:11

Tricks someone into thinking that you're allowing for neutral facts for neutrality and In reality once you get them into the

53:21

Christian faith You're going to introduce them to the Lordship of Christ and then say see in reality.

53:26

We really didn't mean That there were any neutral facts and so we're going to take back the argumentation we used to get you where we are

53:34

That's just I don't know how else to describe it other than dishonest I just don't see it as as a meaningful direction to go and So anyway,

53:45

I see a connection between those those two ideas and to me obviously it is

53:56

Vitally important and I and I know for most of our listeners. You're not going to be having extensive conversations with Well -read and articulate

54:05

Muslims, but shouldn't we be ready to do that? I mean is it not going to increase our boldness our confidence to have some some understanding of Where others are coming from especially when you know they can very often be the ones that are bringing their message to us and so, you know, that's

54:32

An important thing. Wow, is that really what it says? With just a few minutes on the dividing line.

54:40

We may be going long tonight Can't go too long. But hey, why not? Let's Let's make it the most eclectic program ever known.

54:50

Let's put the clutch in real deep let's leave me thock and fitra and and al -tabri and everything else and Let's talk with Pierre hi

55:03

Pierre. How you doing? I'm okay. How are you long time? No talk indeed I keep forgetting that there's this time difference

55:13

No, I keep thinking the program's on at 7 well in Just two weeks.

55:19

It probably will be it will be again Yeah, cuz they've changed a light savings time to where for the vast majority of the year

55:25

It is three hours, but for about four months out of the year. It's It's different so anyways

55:32

You have a statement about the priesthood just a question Because I was in I was intrigued by your comment on Noel Reynolds Address right at BYU, Idaho you made a statement

55:48

I can't remember the exact words, but that there was a Compelling evidence in the

55:53

Bible about how the priesthood is organized Yes, and I just wanted to know what is that compelling argument or organization couple of things

56:04

First of all you have very clear instructions in the Old Testament in regards to the nature of the

56:10

Aaronic priesthood the high priest their Functions so on so forth then when you come into the

56:16

New Testament in the book of Hebrews you have an extensive discussion of The supremacy of the

56:22

Melchizedek priesthood over that of the Levitical priesthood the fact the Levitical priesthood is passing away and that the

56:30

Melchizedek priesthood is held by Jesus Christ as our soul and only high priest and a full discussion of the the concept of the priesthood the function of the priesthood the final atoning work of Christ as our high priest

56:45

And all of that is just completely Contradictory to the idea of the

56:52

Mormon priesthood with with a greater and lesser priesthood with the idea of multiple high priests the idea of Elders at 19 years of age being given the

57:06

Melchizedek priesthood and so on so forth There is simply no way to meaningfully exegete the text of the book of Hebrews and come up with the

57:15

LDS perspective I just found that Noel Reynolds was just assuming the the position of Mormonism And then reading it back into history

57:26

And not really dealing with the fact that there is absolutely no evidence That the early

57:32

Christian Church was organized as the LDS Church is organized today Well, I'm I would tend to agree that that the matter is not absolutely clear.

57:41

I would not say that there's no evidence Well, where do you where do you have any evidence of Christians in The first century because he was saying the apostate

57:50

His whole theory his old presentation was that the apostasy took place in the first century within the first Generations after the the time of Christ so but I would agree with that position by the way well

58:01

And and that's always how I had understood The the LDS position at least over the past number of years was that within a few generations this complete apostasy had taken place

58:11

So the priesthood authority was lost, but that to me how what evidence is there of first presidencies of The act of the concept that the bishop which is clearly presented in the pastoral epistles of the

58:27

New Testament as the overseer and and presbyter elder and bishop of the same thing in the

58:34

New Testament So that that clearly isn't a holdover from some concept in Mormonism So where are these

58:41

Aaronic priests? Where are these Melchizedek priests? Where are their temples? the fact is they just It's just not there

58:50

I've seen some folks up at BYU make some incredibly long Reaches to try to come up with something, but the fact matters is just not there.

58:59

What what evidence would you present? Well, I think you have the evidence that there was a quorum of twelve apostles

59:07

For one thing which is no longer found in the Christian Church today

59:13

They clearly their number twelve was important to them one of the first order of business after the ascension of Christ Was to appoint someone to replace

59:23

Judas and what was the Basis upon which that replacement was made.

59:29

What was the requirement of the two names that were put forward? What did they have to? What credentials they have to have?

59:36

Those who were part of the ministry from the beginning, right? They had to be eyewitnesses That's so the continuation of that kind of an office would be impossible past the first generation because it couldn't be eyewitnesses any longer

59:48

Well, that would be true for perhaps that time There's nothing to say that they weren't necessarily all eyewitnesses as an example might be

59:57

Paul himself was not an eyewitness to all things From the beginning so he would not meet the criteria and yet true that he had met

01:00:03

Christ on the road to to Damascus and so you would say you would say that every

01:00:09

Apostle has personally met Jesus No, not at all. I'm just simply pointing out that that criteria that was

01:00:16

Met for those two individuals Matthias and I forget who knew the other one was That they had met that and interestingly enough

01:00:25

Eusebius mentions the fact that Matthias was one of the original 70 whom

01:00:31

Christ had chosen You recall that it was mentioned in the Gospels, right?

01:00:37

however, however Eusebius would also point out that the kind of concept of the 12 and a concept of a 70

01:00:47

Which is clearly where Joseph Smith got those idea were not continued in the early church and in fact there's no evidence this even in the

01:00:54

New Testament when when Paul writes the pastoral epistles when he writes to Timothy and Titus and Discusses the the matters of church order and things like that.

01:01:02

There's nothing about Making appeal to Jerusalem to the Council the 12 or to the 70 or to the general authorities or anything like that.

01:01:10

Is there? No, there's not. Okay, but there is some Evidence of it because for instance when the matter of circumcision came up they had a council in Jerusalem to discuss the matter

01:01:24

Then they did but it was and then they sent out an epistle to all the churches the

01:01:29

From the central authority in Jerusalem says this is what we're going to do Yeah, but that was not something that involved a council of 12.

01:01:38

That was not something that involved In fact James is the one who sends it out There was no first presidency.

01:01:44

There's nobody sitting there claiming to hold the Melchizedek priesthood It is it is again an anachronistic thing to read into Those New Testament texts the form of order that Joseph Smith well, and it's not just Joseph Smith Let's let's be honest the the modern form of the

01:02:03

LDS Church really wasn't Smith so much as it was Brigham Young in the later, Utah Apostles that there was still a lot of development going on at that particular point in time

01:02:14

But again, I don't see how The priesthood in the

01:02:20

LDS perspective can exist unless you have the priesthood doing the things The priesthood is supposed to do where are the baptismal fonts?

01:02:29

Where you have people claiming the Melchizedek priesthood are baptizing In in the name of the

01:02:35

Melchizedek priesthood. Where's where are the temples? Where is the evidence from Eusebius or Clemens or Ignatius or Irenaeus or any of these people?

01:02:46

That that was the primitive form of the church. I mean when I read church history There is lots of discussions about well the shift from the monarchical episcopate where you have

01:02:57

The shift from multiple elders who are bishops There is no distinction between those two that you find in Clement you find in the pastoral epistles

01:03:06

To the monarchical episcopate of Ignatius Etc. Etc. Rome developing a monarchical

01:03:13

Episcopate around 145 But you don't have anything that would even begin to suggest to somebody what

01:03:21

Noel Richard was at rent Noel Reynolds was assuming and that is that those first generations had what?

01:03:29

Well what the Book of Mormon says Jesus established amongst the Nephites, you know I can see that that that has to be the assumption but I'm I'm I'm not unfamiliar with early church history, and I don't see where you get it

01:03:43

No, I would tend to agree with you that there's not any overwhelming evidence But I think you're missing an important point here and that is that that That the that the because of rebellion among the early

01:03:58

Christians because of division among the early Christians Which Paul fought

01:04:03

Strenuously to to put down in all his letters just about deal with that issue of apostasy

01:04:11

That is the reason why we lost out on Calling in new apostles and prophets because they had strayed they did they denied the authority

01:04:23

I mean Paul even mentions that one of the men in there, you know, we refused to receive him

01:04:28

And so we see that the Apostles were being rejected by the local congregation

01:04:34

So the reason there's no evidence is because the apostasy took took place so quickly that there wouldn't have been any evidence left

01:04:40

Anyways, that's correct. I think it took place this well by time the Apostles were all killed off so even even though we have the positive evidence of the

01:04:47

New Testament and its Discussion of the order of the church and that there is absolutely no evidence in that evidence of the

01:04:55

LDS perspective We can just assume it Because well, you have a testimony that the Book of Mormon is true and therefore that would follow inevitably

01:05:02

Now you can assume it that way but I what I'm saying is that I don't think that there is any compelling evidence of any kind of order in the church of How things should be ordered and I submit to you for evidence is the absolute chaos in the way

01:05:16

That that the Christianity is organized today Every seems like every different the congregation has its own way of doing things

01:05:24

Not all that clear as you would like to have your audience believe In the Bible because if it were that clear we would you know

01:05:31

All Christianity would be doing things pretty much the same way really Pierre the clearest thing the Bibles There's one true and eternal

01:05:37

God you believe in bunches of them so the clarity the clarity of the biblical revelation is not going to be a basis upon which to to Judge people in that way that the the argument you just used the same argument that the

01:05:50

Roman Catholics use against the perspicuity of the of the scriptures and I simply say to you that the the reason that there are differences in Fundamental church polity is not because of a lack of the clarity of the text of Scripture It's because people refuse to allow the scriptures themselves to determine these things and I would point you to sir

01:06:11

Do something you've read and that is how many times did Legrand Richards in a marvelous work and a wonder at the end of almost?

01:06:17

Every segment in that book which is used to be anyways I'm not sure if it is anymore But used to be given to almost every single

01:06:24

LDS missionary as part of his sort of training and preparation to go out of his mission Legrand Richards and marvelous work in a wonder over and over again says and This we did not learn from the

01:06:35

Bible and this we did not get from the scriptures This is latter -day revelation

01:06:40

And so there's the perfect illustration of the fact that that attitude is not just limited

01:06:48

To those who claim latter -day revelation. There are lots of folks who simply don't take seriously looking at what the text of Scripture actually says in regards to the organization of the church the

01:07:01

Requirements of the elders. Let me tell you something Pierre. Have you looked at the requirements of the elders in the New Testament? Well, I've read the

01:07:09

New Testament multiple times unless it was specifically you're referring to well If you look at first Timothy in Titus the requirements for the elders in a

01:07:17

New Testament are not requirements that are being Filled by the elders the LDS Church and that's because the

01:07:23

New Testament Obviously given the eighth article of faith is always subjugated to the Book of Mormon and more importantly in this case the

01:07:30

Doctrine and Covenants and its later revelations as to the organization of the LDS Church Interest, can you give me one or two example?

01:07:37

Sure, look at they look at the qualifications. There's there to be the husband of one wife there to rule their house as well

01:07:42

You're sending teenagers out and calling them elders. They are not to be novices in the faith they are to be able to teach and contradict those and Contradict the gainsayers and so on so forth how many

01:07:53

LDS missionaries really fulfill almost any of those requirements because the

01:07:59

Office of elder in Mormonism has almost nothing to do with the office of elder in the

01:08:04

New Testament That's that's the highest calling in the New Testament is to be an elder in the local body. That's that's the highest calling

01:08:10

There's nothing about that And so that's that's where one of the major differences is but the office of a bishop

01:08:16

They were talking Bishop Bishop and elder the same thing sir. That's my whole point Press press buter offs and Episcopal are used interchangeably in the text of the

01:08:23

New Testament That's where when you allow the New Testament to speak for itself. It becomes extremely important But hey, we went eight and a half minutes long with me there.

01:08:33

So I hope that was enough time I appreciate your calling into the program today and keep listening. I I'm glad you're glad you're out there.

01:08:39

Thanks for calling Alrighty, well, there you go. They're most eclectic program you could

01:08:47

From the evangelical textual criticism blog to Psalm 119 to Sheikh Yasser Qadhi and the fitra to Pierre in Virginia and Mormon priesthood there you go.

01:09:03

I think we've set a new record that you smell that that's the clutch burning But that's what the dividing line is all about.

01:09:12

Thanks for listening folks. We'll see you next week. God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

01:10:17

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