May 24, 2005

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. And now with today's topic here is James white.

Returning From Italy and the Election-and-Evangelism Conference

And good morning. Welcome to the dividing line or whatever time it is where you are. Let's see. What time is it according to my body it is eight o 'clock at night. Goodness gracious. Yeah. It's it's um, you know, it's a long Flight, you know those flights aren't too bad.

It's about the same same time to Heathrow or to Milan or wherever you are over there. It's about seven and a half eight hours and a little bit more coming back and and they're not that you know. It's just not that bad, especially when they have the Incredibles playing.

Which which I watched first thing out of out of Milan yesterday morning. We barely made it. Oh goodness Italian traffic. Wow, what a one experience. But anyways, we're here and We are we are happy happy indeed to be here.

I should have reset my system when I got back shouldn't I? Yeah, well, we'll we'll do it after the program's over eight seven seven Seven five three three three four one had to look up and look for my little cheat thing up there because it's been forever.

Quite some time since we did this and I Don't think we could have done it from Italy believe me. It was hard enough to find a phone line let alone do the internet thing. But time will will eventually make that work.

Yeah, thankfully, I think one of the fun things was I got to watch Incredibles in English. I had already seen Oh, what was that an old member high chaparral? That was one of my favorite Western movies not movies, but a TV show when I was a kid was high chaparral was shot down in Tucson and I Saw an Italian version of high chaparral.

That is wrong. Okay when Indians speaking in It's just something completely No, just just that doesn't work. So I saw high chaparral what I saw some other great Oh the monsters the monsters in Italian worked that that actually was okay.

But but high chaparral in Italian does not does not work at all. So Anyway, that's what made the Incredibles fun was that was that the lips and what came at the lips were actually in sync with one another and The funny thing is it seems and listening to the to the interpretation notice.

I said interpretation. I was corrected By my second interpreter in Italy Interpretation is of the spoken word translation is of the written word just Just go with it. You may not really see it there's a whole lot of difference but trust me the interpreters do because I think the interpreters think they're considerably better than the translators because translators don't have to do it on the fly an Interpreter has to fly sometimes even you know simultaneously and that does take you know a special skill and so they want to have that skill recognized and so.

Anyway, I was listening to the interpretation. Actually trying to follow it and eventually especially when we were doing a biblical teaching. Which is what we try to do regularly, but in other words when when I was trying to explain Like I was speaking out of John 6 the subject matter that I was speaking on the two conferences.

I spoke at. Was the issue of election and evangelism? This was the first time according to these folks. This is the first time at least in memory that there had been a discussion a an actual public Presentation a conference on this subject in Italy by evangelicals.

I mean Rome has always done everything in its power to crush Opposition in Italy as far as religious opposition. I mean, you know, like I mentioned the blog Italy is a secular Society very secular you can see evidence of the church everywhere.

They're only Catholic Church everywhere everywhere you go. You look around you see these churches. They're always at the highest point on the hills and all the rest of that stuff, but many of them are closed.

The ice I I think I might have seen a Dozen priests grand total in two weeks in Italy and maybe a dozen nuns and almost all of them were at the Vatican. You just you just don't see him you just don't see him.

The first thing I saw in Rome was prostitutes. You look at at the advertising you give the society. Italy is a secular Society. Roman Catholicism has almost no influence upon the daily life of the vast majority of Italians.

None at all. Zip zero. Nada, okay, and So. But it's religious it's when it's when evangelicals as late as I think it was telling me the 1870s there were evangelicals who were imprisoned for studying the Bible in their homes as late as the 1870s and Rome has done everything it can to keep the Reformation out of Italy.

There are numerous I got I got to one of my hosts The fellow by name Renato who took me around in in Rome has done a tremendous amount of research on The documents the Inquisition and Italian martyrs Who died for their and especially his area of expertise is reformed martyrs?

Who He pointed out Calvin's Geneva produced oodles of Missionaries who went into Italy and almost every single one of them died in Fact he was giving a talk this past Sunday at a church. It was founded by one of these Italian martyrs, and it was like their hundred and 200th anniversary or something like that and he was giving giving the the speech and it's fascinating to me that Calvinists are said to destroy Of Missions work and evangelism and yet it was Calvin's Geneva that cranked out all these men.

These young men who went right into the lion's den literally into Rome and Rome and and Italy as a whole and Knowing that that they they were going to die for so doing it wasn't Arminius that was creating those folks.

It was it was Calvin's Geneva that was doing so so anyway This topic extremely unusual I was speaking for Passaggio, which is an Italian publishing organization that puts reformed materials into people's hands and they they you know they'll have stuff by D Martin Lloyd-Jones and John Piper and and John MacArthur and Charles Haddon Spurgeon and and all that kind of stuff, and they they're publishing all this stuff and The the subject was the subject of election evangelism, and so I would be listening as People you know as the as translations were being made of what I was saying it was fascinating.

I was picking up a lot of the a lot of the Italian and and sometimes the terminology that my my interpreter would use Was better than what I had chosen to use and I actually liked it better and said yeah that's an excellent way of doing it and so How did I get on to the subject of interpretation anyways?

I mean I actually did a fairly decent job I jumped on the four different topics there. But once I got back to the interpretation part lost it anyway the subject matter was was election and evangelism.

It was the first time this had been done in in Italy and it was it was an honor to do that met a lot of wonderful folks and Some who could you know all sorts of different levels of ability in English and My wife got to go with me for the first week, and we only didn't get a lot of sightseeing and we got to 1 .75 days shall we say of Sightseeing and those were dedicated the first day to a Venice and Which is the world's largest outdoor mall?

Every Where you went in Venice each building the bottom floor is a shop it's modern. You know glass they that I have a picture of a whole display of Oakley's there in Florence and Everything you want to find Including those those masks maybe Phibian channel would know about these masks For Carnival that have the feathers on them.

You know I don't there there There can't be that many people in the world that would want those masks as we're available in Venice. Just just not possible. Just absolutely incredible so anyway Everywhere you went shops shoes purses every anything you'd want to look for almost That's all the main thoroughfares in Venice is that that that's it and Even the people who work in those in those shops don't live in Venice because it's far too Expensive to do so only really rich people live in the the stories above that in the two or three stories above that and So it was we did a lot of walking.

I was exhausted by the time we got done Walking through through Venice. It was It was incredible not too many bookstores. No. I didn't see a whole lot of those, but But so we saw Venice, and then we had one day in Rome and interestingly enough that that has been what has Resulted in a lot of conversation because when I finally established.

Thanks to E Nielsen and channel who? Directed me to a worldwide dial-up networking service that we signed me up for so I could get online. Once once I get online I blogged a little bit about the trip to Rome and We went to Vatican City we visited st. Peter's, and then we went and visited the Colosseum and I Put up a couple pictures.

I made some comments and once again. It is amazing to me the kinds of responses made by allegedly well-read intelligent Roman Catholic apologetics types to the things that I said and There was in fact I invited this fellow Xavier on Planet envoy.

I gave the the link on my blog last night once I saw this and On the 21st of this month he posted The following post said good morning evidently dr. James why has been traveling in Italy recently in addition to as many other honors.

Dr.. White has the distinction being the first man in history to ever visit Italy and complained about the food. Yes, I must I must confess that I have a very narrow palate shall we say and I will likewise confess that I would prefer in in most situations the Italian food at the Olive Garden to the Italian food in Italy, but that's just simply a matter of taste.

Big deal. Okay, you know You live with it by the way it It did work the the James goes to Italy diet managed to knock nine pounds off. It's probably just because You have the amount of calories you're taking in each day, and that's that's what's gonna happen.

And you know walking around Venice for a number of hours doesn't doesn't hurt but anyway He continues on of course to say apparently there is on of protein in the Italian diet to feed dr. White's roid rages.

Isn't that nice. Maybe before he's done trial writing travel literature. You can take some time to extol the virtues of Scottish cuisine. Attempts one to recall st. Jerome describing plagiarism that big fat fellow bloated with Scots porridge.

Well isn't that nice. I Get the feeling Xavier probably wouldn't say that to my face. But you know that's what these kinds are are sort of like. Anyways at any rate it seems dr. White felt when coming upon himself take time out of his busy schedule to defile or I mean pay a visit to st Peter's Basilica he has written a charming travelogue describing the event event complete with photos.

Actually it was I Didn't have a lot of time. When you're on dial-up, and you're paying for the dial-up you you can't you know just necessarily be as verbose as you wished and also wasn't overly awake and so I it was very brief just here's a couple of things that caught my attention and.

So we continue on join dr. White in this whimsical journey as he sallies forth into the belly of the beast. Waxing philosophical as he ponders the basilica's place in ecclesiastical history and s and eschatological future.

Wandering among the dark and spooky tombs of the Pope's. Well. You know what it was rather dark in a number of those areas in st. Peter's and A place filled with tombs does remind one of a mausoleum it was.

There was nothing warm about that place. There was nothing inviting about that place. It's it's made of Marble and and various precious metals it's. You know I will I will admit when I look at something like st. Peter's when.

When I visited the papal treasures exhibit in Denver in 1993 I had the same feeling and That is when I'm looking at tiaras and you know tiaras don't impress me. I'm sorry. Tiaras don't impress me. Jewels do not impress me.

The riches of Romanism do not impress me and I I can't see how anyone can be impressed by those things to be honest with you but One of the reasons they don't impress me and one of the reasons that that in fact they revolt me is Because I do know the history despite the fact that these folks want to you know.

Get into the ad hominem stuff and talk about how ignorant I am. I don't see any phone lines ring because I invited them to call in this is a wonderful opportunity. I'm jet-lagged. I'm tired. I've only had a few hours of sleep, and and if these folks are so brilliant so right.

This would be their chance, but you know it's amazing people who are brave behind keyboards are generally cowards in person and That's been my experience with these folks. You got to give me one thing.

I'm the same in person as I am behind my keyboard if I'll say it behind my keyboard I'll say it to your face. I'll say in a debate. You got to give me that and for the vast majority of my opponents They're not that way all of a sudden and get into a debate.

They're just so different. Don't have the courage of their convictions evidently, but anyways mr.. Xavier Should know that when I look at st. Peter's I Know where st. Peter's came from. I know how it was financed.

I Know how that gold got up there on that wall. I Know I look at these tombs of these popes and these huge statues and they're sitting there, and and they've got their crowns on and their Their hands is extended and they're speaking so wisely from the throne, and I'm yeah, it makes me sick.

Selling God's grace in a form of indulgences makes me sick if you know something about God's grace you cannot help but be made sick by the prostitution of it and It doesn't it doesn't help at all to say oh well You know we fix that we don't sell them anymore.

So what you did peel all that gold off the wall and give it back to the people you stole it from. You know. So yeah, I can't it does impact me to think about where the the funding came from to build this massive Monument to the arrogance of man.

To the arrogance of men who call themselves Christians. Yeah, that doesn't Doesn't attract me at all in any way shape, but how can it? How can you separate that out? You know I suppose some people can they can just look back and well.

That's the way things were everybody was corrupt back then no they weren't no they weren't that's not true and the selling of indulgences. To finance the building of a huge massive monument to the egos of Corrupt men, and they were corrupt come on the history is there.

Roman Catholic apologists even admit the history is there in fact. They try to make an argument for Rome. They say well if if the church can survive the debauched Popes of the pornocracy and and Alexander and some of the other Popes that were just you know so horrible and and and the poisonings and the intrigues and.

And the the the centuries during which the Cardinals Vied with one another to buy the papacy if it can survive all that it must be divine. That's that's the argumentation you'll hear. But I'm sorry standing outside the the the grandiose crypt of a dead guy Who I don't consider to have been a Christian.

I consider him to have been an Antichrist. Because he sat in the place of Christ. He taught a false gospel. He enslaved people and there's and and and their souls to a false gospel into a false Hope yeah that that impacts my looking at that and going.

That's a beautiful. That's a beautiful thing. No, it's not. No, it's not. It's just it's just a big pile of rock That will stand as testimony in the end time. To the to the utter corruption of the system that created it.

That's what it is and So you can draw all the pretty pictures you want on Idolatry, it's still idolatry. You know you look at the ancient temples that were built the false gods, and you go wow. The depths to which man will go to use the greatest gifts God has given to him.

Simply to Cover over his own idolatry or to adorn his own. I'd not even cover it over to adorn his own idolatry. You know what? What can I say? Yeah, I look at it that way and I Point those things out.

Do any of these responses by the way, I'm this again I'm reading what's linked on my blog. Do any of these responses deal? With indulgences. Deal with the criticism of indulgences that we've made. Of course not.

Mastro, these folks never even read what we say. They never even read the books. They just quote each other. You know one person says X Y or Z produces some some Criticism and then you just quote it ten times until it becomes truth, and so anyway Xavier continues on he.

He quotes from my blog. I could not help a smile as I scan around the structure the citation of all the key Petrine passages in gold around the top Of the walls passages such as Matthew 16 Luke 22 32 etc.

Knowing how easily and forcefully the misuse of such passages can be refuted and has been refuted time and time again. I stood in the midst of the enemy camp and could not help but realize that everything I was seeing hangs in midair all of its foundations have been washed away.

And he says not to be missed read more well. How about responding to that how about why can't these folks talk about the pseudo is a Dorian decretals the nation of Constantine? Why can all they do is refer back to something in the 1800s where some priest tried to?

Rehabilitate the complete misinterpretation of Luke 22. Is that the best that they have is is ad hominem mockery all that the great? Roman system has I I I wonder. And then he gives the link to the to the article.

He says especially poignant is his deep reflection upon pausing in front of the tomb of Pope John Paul II for a photo op Reflecting upon how the great man will be remembered, and I had said now, and here's here's a good example of why you should always You know take the time to read the context that that people offer because I actually had Made a little bit more commentary than is now here quoted.

Of course quoting the whole thing would not have helped. The case that was being that was being made but Actually what I had written Was of course one of the longest lines I stood in was the one visiting underground crypts specifically that of John Paul II.

No one really cared much about the rest of them and in a hundred years this one will stop will not stop anyone for long. Either period that's where he stops to quote what I went on to say was but for now it remains.

It should be it remains. There's a typo on my part. It remains a huge traction. Give him credit. It's not overly ornate and in comparison to the gaudy self aggrandizing ones in the main structure it speaks far better than most now if you were going if You're gonna review what somebody said.

Don't you think maybe possibly you might want to include that Xavier didn't. Xavier didn't read it and Xavier left it off for a purpose, and it's a dishonest purpose isn't it Xavier. Yeah, we both know that that's why the phone's not ring.

Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. You can dial it quick. Yeah, you can and he goes on to say you know we Catholics have been extremely unjust and accusing this man and his sycophants of Anti-catholic bigotry.

Surely you can all see now that the Holy Spirit is upon this man. And it is out of profound love for us that he and his minions Endeavor in the Lord's vineyard through our slings and arrows to bring us to the true gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Bless you bless you Dr. White for pulling the scales from our eyes. Where we had been kept in blind is held in slavery by the hellish counterfeit gospel system of works concocted by satanic Rome. Well Xavier like I said I've invited you to call in.

I would be Happy. And then he says PS can any of my fellow Catholics tell me again if they'll be supporting white in any of his future debates. I'm not sure what that means. I don't. I don't know what that means at all.

Evidently just simply quoting something. Is he disputing that a hundred years from now John Paul a second will not be nearly as popular as he is today. Is that a. What what exactly is offensive about that?

What exactly is untrue about that. How many by by raising your hand. How many listening audience including Roman Catholics. Know who the Pope was. Don't look don't look don't Google it. Know who the Pope was 100 years ago.

Who was it? I was down there. Nobody was stopping at whoever's his tomb was nobody nobody was looking at that. It was a it was a factual Observation. Why read anything into it? And why skip the part where I said, you know what at least he you know.

It's it seems consistent with the man that he doesn't have one of those crypts upstairs with the big. You know he could have ordered that. He could have ordered that. But he didn't and I dared say something that you know I'll probably take heat for that for having said you know what give him credit at least.

It's it fits. What he said about himself? It fits the view he gave of himself. But no one will ever mention that. Of course. No no no no no no we we can't be fair no. So Xavier give me a call man. I'm wide open here.

I'm not hiding behind my keyboard. Are you gonna hide behind yours? We're gonna do another program on Thursday. Got another one on Tuesday. Why don't you contact us Xavier contact the ministry? Will we will meet your schedule, how's that?

We'll meet your schedule. We'll set up to do a program and You come on and we'll discuss this together. How's that sound? Being open there. Sure, that sounds good. That sounds like a plan to me then a Guy named uncertain drummer says well, I thought this was a joke that I went to the link.

I am dumbfounded. We're not told why what what exactly did I say? That's that's that's odd. I Mean my personal response to what I saw is based upon my theological beliefs. I derive from Scripture. How about dealing with that how about?

Interacting and not just throwing rocks. I Mean is it really a testimony that this is the true church and that you have the truth that the only way you can respond To observations that someone makes about your religion is to throw rocks at them to silence them.

I mean that is the history of Rome there in Italy it is. It's not Engagement and demonstration of error it is silence in prison kill murder. That's that's Rome's history in Italy in dealing with Theological opposition they're just not in a position to do it at the moment.

But that is their history so we have a system here, and you would think wouldn't you that the best way to To demonstrate that that's not an accurate picture of Rome is to do something other than that, but that's that's not what happens.

I mean art Sippo then weighs in and of course art Sippo can't write anything that isn't just filled with acid. And you can read what he says he's you know the man is is beyond Any type of rational dialogue or discussion.

But I'll just read the one thing that he said here. He said Mr.. White is an ignorant bigot who has no academic credentials. I guess fuller seminary doesn't exist. And I haven't been teaching for ten years.

But anyway He was raised by bigots to be a bigot and would parade around a white sheet burning crosses on people's lawns. If there was any money in it, there's there's art Sippo and I Told y 'all that that art was was the most immature man.

I've ever debated He he's probably the most arrogant and nasty man. I've ever debated and and that's probably why the tapes quote-unquote well tapes of the quote-unquote debate that we did in 1991 just sort of disappeared, but we've made available that which we have and The rest you the rest you have to take either my word or art Sippo's and you know what I will be more than glad To let you read the body of literature produced by art Sippo and what I've read I've produced and We'll go from there.

How's how's that and but I'd like to look at something that's Uncertain drummer said in the next part of that and we also have a Phone call and we'll take your phone calls at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

But we're gonna take our break and be right back.

Indulgences, St. Peter's, and the Corruption of Romanism

It's all works righteousness, you know. And I manufactured grace myself Religious place by weeping hard on your face.

Christians around the globe are having the very foundation of their faith challenged at an unprecedented level from every imaginable source. Never before in history has the authority and inspiration of the Holy Scriptures been so viciously attacked.

By those outside the pale of orthodoxy and within the walls of traditional evangelicalism itself. Questions that plague the steadfast Christian from the onslaught of Bible skeptics such as the Jesus seminar the Da Vinci Code and Wolves and sheeps clothing meet many without needed answers.

Is the Bible a product of man not of God? Is it true that the New Testament is a false testimony. Is it true that the canon of Scripture was distorted by men with a political agenda? Is it true that Jesus's divinity was the result of a boat of bishops?

Is the Bible true? Join us August 26 and 27th for the 2005 Alpha and Omega ministries national conference in Seattle Washington as we answer the tough questions and challenge the false presuppositions of the skeptics and deniers of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

With the founders president and director. Dr. Tom Askew the director of Baptist Studies Center at Westminster Theological Seminary Dr. James Renahan Grammy Award-winning reformed Christian musician Steve camp and President and founder of Alpha Omega ministries. Dr. James white and.

On Saturday the 27th of August don't miss the most important debate of 2005 Dr. James white versus Jesus seminar chairman and Bible critic. Dr. John Dominic Russell is the Orthodox biblical account of Jesus of Nazareth authentic and historically accurate featuring three hours of debate and cross-examination.

Join us and be a part of this historic event that will sharpen your apologetic and reassure your convictions in God's perfect and holy word. Seating is limited. So sign up today at a o n org or call eight seven seven seven five three.

Three three four one and welcome back to the dividing line, you know.

Should make sure that you are getting ready for the debate a time is a wasting and If you haven't made your arrangements you you you don't want to be left out. You don't want to look back and go. Wow, you know if I had just I Just listened if I had just done what I was supposed to do.

Dick discounts are ending what on the 31st of this month. Oh So that's that's a week from today. So after this, you know, I get so many people come up to me. Oh, yeah. Hey, can you still get me a good deal?

It's like, um, where have you been for the past few months? What's this sorry procrastinators are going to have a problem there is just simply no other way about it than than that so You need to get taken care of.

I was I was actually taking the train the Eurostar from Rome to Modena in Italy and I was listening to my mp3 player and I stumbled across the cross and Craig debate and I Was was rather fascinated by the fact that Listening once again to this this information I Really?

I'm not sure exactly how This program is this debate is going to go what direction it's going to go. But I certainly know that it is going to be foundational. It is going to be important. You're gonna want to be there.

You're going to want to be able to say that you got to see it live because you know what? DVDs are great. They really are and mp3s are great, and I'm glad that What we do in this debate is not going to be limited simply to the people who managed to Manage to be there, but But anyone can tell you that a DVD Despite the you know how well we make them or how many cameras we've got or How good the color is whatever a DVD cannot?

Communicate to you those little things that only the live debate communicate the The expectation in the air the the little mutterings that come from the audience every once in a while The glance that you catch from me or from my opponent or the moderator That the camera doesn't All that stuff is is important and so that the conference is going to be important.

We're going to be working hard to present to you Important information, and we've got excellent people speaking and you're gonna want to be there for that and So I would very much encourage you Get off your your seat if you've if you've been going man.

I really want to do that now. It's time to do it. Don't put it off Take care of the issue now So that you can get the best The best arrangements and do not put it off any longer take my take my advice, so please do that.

I'm also by the way very excited about next week's debate. Well, not is it next week now the week after the week afters debate on Long Island the 9th of June against Bill Rutland on the subject of can a non-christian enter into heaven.

I really believe That this is going to be an excellent opportunity to contrast The views of modern Roman Catholicism and Honestly Sadly in the same way modern Evangelicalism post evangelicalism pseudo evangelicalism however want to put it with the biblical gospel it's going to be an excellent contrast and I will just be very upfront and saying I realize that I am going to be Approaching this particular debate in such a way that once again I am going to be putting myself in the position of defending the minority and That's fine.

I like being in that position. That's okay. But I did get to spend some time some downtime in Italy Writing yes with with a pen what a concept that was on Paper even in in written form I was not using a keyboard Writing out various thoughts concerning the debate challenges directions I'm going to be going so I've certainly been starting that process as to how I'm going to present it and That is Thursday night June 9th Huntington townhouse the information's on the website.

I need to update the I Need to update the calendar page because it's still what should still probably have the Italy stuff on it but it's there on the calendar page take a look at that and If you are in the area you are certainly invited to participate in that once again.

They are well attended and I think you would find them to be very very useful as well. So make sure that's coming and then before that I should mention this since we're getting all this before we take our phone call since we're getting all this out of the way I Should likewise mention the fact that The weekend before that I'll be hit Bethlehem Bible Church Up in West Broylston, Massachusetts the information's also on the web page Doing a number of presentations there.

So if you're in the Massachusetts area or you know, New England's not huge. So if you're if you're in that particular area and you've wanted to get together with me and say hello or something like that That would be the time to do.

So The information is there and then I'll be down at Trinity Fellowship Church in New Jersey Tom's River, New Jersey The Sunday a Saturday and Sunday after the debate, so I'll be Leaving from New York driving down to a new Jersey if the Garden State Parkway Doesn't turn into a parkway.

That is a place where you park And Take, you know four hours to get there something like that, but we will be down there on Monday and I'm sorry Saturday and Sunday and Thus we would invite you to be there.

A Caller on Leaving Roman Catholicism and the Reality of Idolatry

Let's go ahead and take our Our caller here and talk with Eddie. Hi Eddie. How you doing? Hey, hey, ma 'am Bonjour, monsieur. Why? Please don't even know What are you trying to do? Yes, I was gonna kick anybody off a they had a channel who started going cha-cha.

Well, I just wanted to share an observation speaking about with Xavier and the In that Catholic chat board. Yes. Uh-huh. Well, I was Roman Catholic for almost 20 years and Served as an altar boy. I remember there was a certain awe and holiness that came with all the candles and the gold and statues and You know the whole grandeur and it was a my wife and I were converted.

Hmm. We didn't know any better. No one discipled us. No one took us in right so and I can remember we sat in that mass Maybe 15 to be convinced that some it seemed as though there's awe and grandeur and empty eerie spooking.

Because remember when that was almost God himself to me. Yes, you know and to see those statues was like I wanted to just touch it Mm-hmm and feel it and say wow, you know, this is actually like the Pope's pen it was his.

Mm-hmm. This was the Representation on earth and I mean, I remember seeing my mother and other friends and people weeping. That this was the closest to God. We were ever gonna get in this life. Mm-hmm.

And then when my heart was it changed everything and we got up and left right in the middle of mass I grabbed my wife's hand and I said, let's get out of here. We went in the parking lot. She goes that was weird and we thought we both were like we and understand we had no discipleship.

We had no training in theology. Yeah, right. It's just our spirit and that goes to answer the question when people say how long can a born-again? Individual stay within the Roman system. Mm-hmm I don't have an answer but I can only speak about my life, right?

And it's difficult for me to see how that could happen right because where God is and where the false gods are. There's a stark difference even when you don't have the theological training, right, right, you know.