May 24, 2005

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation if you'd like to talk with dr.

White call now 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll -free across the

United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

James White And good morning. Welcome to the dividing line or whatever time it is where you are

Let's see. What time is it according to my body it is 8 o 'clock at night. Oh Goodness gracious.

Yeah It's it's um, you know, it's a long Flight, you know those flights aren't too bad

It's about the same same time to Heathrow or to Milan or wherever you are over there

It's about seven and a half eight hours and a little bit more coming back and and they're not that you know

It's just not that bad, especially when they have the Incredibles playing Which which

I watched first thing out of out of Milan yesterday morning. We barely made it. Oh goodness Italian traffic

Wow, what a one experience. But anyways, we're here and We are we are happy happy indeed to be here.

I should have reset my system when I got back shouldn't I? Yeah, well, we'll we'll do it after the program's over 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 had to look up and look for my little cheat thing up there because it's been forever

Quite some time since we did this and I Don't think we could have done it from Italy believe me

It was hard enough to find a phone line let alone do the internet thing But time will will eventually make that work

Yeah, thankfully, I think one of the fun things was I got to watch Incredibles in English. I had already seen

Oh, what was that an old member high chaparral? That was one of my favorite Western movies not movies, but a

TV show when I was a kid was high chaparral was shot down on Tucson and I Saw an

Italian version of high chaparral that is wrong. Okay when Indians speaking in It's just something completely

No, just just that doesn't work. So I saw high chaparral what I saw some other great

Oh the monsters the monsters in Italian worked that that actually was okay But but high chaparral in Italian does not does not work at all so Anyway, that's what made the

Incredibles fun was that was that the lips and what came at the lips were actually in sync with one another and The funny thing is it seems and listening to the to the interpretation notice.

I said interpretation. I was corrected By my second interpreter in Italy Interpretation is of the spoken word translation is of the written word just Just go with it.

You may not really see it There's a whole lot of difference but trust me the interpreters do because I think the interpreters think they're considerably better than the translators because translators don't have to do it on the fly an

Interpreter has to fly sometimes even you know simultaneously and that does take you know a special skill and so they want to have that skill recognized and so Anyway, I was listening to the interpretation

Actually trying to follow it and eventually especially when we were doing a biblical teaching Which is what we try to do regularly, but in other words when when

I was trying to explain Like I was speaking out of John 6 the subject matter that I was speaking on the two conferences.

I spoke at Was the issue of election and evangelism this was the first time according to these folks

This is the first time at least in memory that there had been a discussion a an actual public

Presentation a conference on this subject in Italy by evangelicals I mean

Rome has always done everything in its power to crush Opposition in Italy as far as religious opposition.

I mean, you know, like I mentioned the blog Italy is a secular Society very secular

You can see evidence of the church everywhere the Roman Catholic Church everywhere everywhere you go. You look around you see these churches

They're always at the highest point on the hills and all the rest of that stuff, but many of them are closed The ice

I I think I might have seen a Dozen priests grand total in two weeks in Italy and maybe a dozen nuns and almost all of them were at the

Vatican You just you just don't see him you just don't see him the first thing

I saw in Rome was prostitutes You look at at the advertising you give the society

Italy is a secular society Roman Catholicism has Almost no influence upon the daily life of the vast majority of Italians none at all zip zero nada, okay, and So, but it's religious it's when it's when evangelicals is as late as I think it was the way to tell me the 1870s

There were evangelicals who were imprisoned for studying the Bible in their homes as late as the 1870s and Rome has done everything it can to keep the

Reformation out of Italy. There are numerous I got I got to one of my hosts

The fellow by name Renato who took me around in in Rome has done a tremendous amount of research on The documents the

Inquisition and Italian martyrs Who died for their and especially his area of expertise is reformed martyrs?

who He pointed out Calvin's Geneva produced oodles of Missionaries who went into Italy and almost every single one of them died in Fact he was giving a talk this past Sunday at a church

It was founded by one of these Italian martyrs, and it was like their hundred and 200th anniversary or something like that and he was giving giving the the speech and it's fascinating to me that Calvinists are said to destroy

Of Missions work and evangelism and yet it was Calvin's Geneva that cranked out all these men

These young men who went right into the lion's den literally into Rome and Rome and and Italy as a whole and Knowing that that they they were going to die for so doing it wasn't

Arminius that was creating those folks It was it was Calvin's Geneva that was doing so so anyway

This topic extremely unusual I was speaking for Passaggio, which is an

Italian publishing organization that puts reformed materials into people's hands and they they you know they'll have stuff by D Martin Lloyd -Jones and John Piper and and John MacArthur and Charles Haddon Spurgeon and and all that kind of stuff, and they they're publishing all this stuff and The the subject was the subject of election evangelism, and so I would be listening as People you know as the as translations were being made of what

I was saying it was fascinating I was picking up a lot of the a lot of the Italian and and sometimes the terminology that my my interpreter would use

Was better than what I had chosen to use and I actually liked it better and said yeah that's an excellent way of doing it and so How did

I get on to the subject of interpretation anyways? I mean, I actually did a fairly decent job I jumped on the four different topics there

But once I got back to the interpretation part lost it anyway the subject matter was was election and evangelism

It was the first time this had been done in in Italy and it was it was an honor to do that met a lot of wonderful folks and Some who could you know all sorts of different levels of ability in English and My wife got to go with me for the first week, and we only didn't get a lot of sightseeing and we got to 1 .75

days shall we say of Sightseeing and those were dedicated the first day to a

Venice and Which is the world's largest outdoor mall?

Every Where you went in Venice each building the bottom floor is a shop it's modern

You know glass they that I have a picture of a whole display of Oakley's there in Florence and Everything you want to find

Including those those masks maybe Phibian channel would know about these masks

For Carnival that have the feathers on them. You know I don't there there There can't be that many people in the world that would want those masks as were available in Venice Just just not possible.

Just absolutely incredible so anyway Everywhere you went shops shoes purses ever anything you'd want to look for almost

That's all the main thoroughfares in Venice is that that that's it and Even the people who work in those in those shops don't live in Venice because it's far too

Expensive to do so only really rich people live in the the stories above that in the two or three stories above that and So it was we did a lot of walking.

I was exhausted by the time we got done Walking through through Venice. It was

It was incredible not too many bookstores. No. I didn't see a whole lot of those, but But so we saw

Venice, and then we had one day in Rome and interestingly enough that that has been what has

Resulted in a lot of conversation because when I finally established. Thanks to E Nielsen and channel who?

Directed me to a worldwide dial -up networking service that we signed me up for so I could get online

Once once I get online. I blogged a little bit about the trip to Rome and We went to Vatican City we visited st.

Peter's and then we went and visited the Colosseum and I Put up a couple pictures.

I made some comments and once again. It is amazing to me the kinds of responses made by allegedly well -read intelligent

Roman Catholic apologetics types to the things that I said and There was in fact

I invited this fellow Xavier on Planet envoy I gave the the link on my blog last night once I saw this and on the 21st of this month he posted

The following post said good morning evidently dr. James why has been traveling in Italy recently in addition to as many other honors

Dr.. White has the distinction being the first man in history to ever visit Italy and complained about the food Yes, I must

I must confess that I have a very narrow palate shall we say and I will likewise confess that I would prefer in in most situations the

Italian food at the Olive Garden to the Italian food in Italy, but that's just simply a matter of taste big deal

Okay, you know You live with it by the way it

It did work the the James goes to Italy diet managed to knock nine pounds off It's probably just because You have the amount of calories you're taking in each day, and that's that's what's gonna happen

And you know walking around Venice for a number of hours doesn't doesn't hurt but anyway

He continues on of course to say apparently there is on of protein in the Italian diet to feed dr. White's roid rages isn't that nice maybe before he's done trial writing travel literature

You can take some time to extol the virtues of Scottish cuisine Attempts one to recall st. Jerome describing plagiarism that big fat fellow bloated with Scots porridge well isn't that nice I Get the feeling

Xavier probably wouldn't say that to my face But you know that's what these kinds are are sort of like anyways at any rate it seems dr.

White felt when coming upon himself take time out of his busy schedule to defile or I mean pay a visit to st

Peter's Basilica he has written a charming travelogue describing the event event complete with photos

Actually it was I Didn't have a lot of time When you're on dial -up, and you're paying for the dial -up you you can't you know just necessarily be as verbose as you wished and also wasn't overly awake and so I it was very brief just here's a couple of things that caught my attention and So we continue on join dr.

White in this whimsical journey as he sallies forth into the belly of the beast Waxing philosophical as he ponders the basilica's place in ecclesiastical history and s and eschatological future

Wandering among the dark and spooky tombs of the Pope's well. You know what it was rather dark in a number of those areas in st.

Peter's and A place filled with tombs does remind one of a mausoleum it was

There was nothing warm about that place. There was nothing inviting about that place.

It's it's made of Marble and and various precious metals it's

You know I will I will admit when I look at something like st.

Peter's when When I visited the papal treasures exhibit in Denver in 1993

I had the same feeling and That is when I'm looking at tiaras and you know tiaras don't impress me.

I'm sorry at the Tiaras don't impress me jewels do not impress me the riches of Romanism do not impress me and I I can't see how anyone can be impressed by those things to be honest with you, but One of the reasons they don't impress me and one of the reasons that that in fact they revolt me is

Because I do know the history despite the fact that these folks want to you know Get into the ad hominem stuff and talk about how ignorant

I am I don't see any phone lines ring because I invited them to call in this is a wonderful opportunity

I'm jet -lagged. I'm tired. I've only had a few hours of sleep, and and if these folks are so brilliant so right

This would be their chance, but you know it's amazing people who are brave behind keyboards are generally cowards in person and That's been my experience with these folks

You got to give me one thing I'm the same in person as I am behind my keyboard if I'll say it behind my keyboard.

I'll say it to your face I'll say in a debate Got to give me that and for the vast majority of my opponents

They're not that way all of a sudden and get into a debate. They're just so different Don't have the courage of their convictions evidently, but anyways mr..

Xavier Should know that when I look at st. Peter's I Know where st.

Peter's came from I know how it was financed I Know how that gold got up there on that wall

I Know I look at these tombs of these popes and these huge statues and they're sitting there, and and they've got their crowns on and their

Their hands is extended, and they're speaking so wisely from the throne, and I'm yeah, it makes me sick

Selling God's grace in a form of indulgences makes me sick if you know something about God's grace

You cannot help but be made sick by the prostitution of it And it doesn't it doesn't help at all to say oh well

You know we fix that we don't sell them anymore So what you did peel all that gold off the wall and give it back to the people you stole it from You know

So yeah, I can't it does impact me to think about where the the funding came from to build this massive

Monument to the arrogance of man to the arrogance of men who call themselves

Christians. Yeah, that doesn't Doesn't attract me at all in any way shape, but how can it?

How can you separate that out? You know I suppose some people can they can just look back and well

That's the way things were everybody was corrupt back then no they weren't no they weren't that's not true and the selling of Indulgences To finance the building of a huge massive monument to the egos of Corrupt men and they were corrupt come on the history is there

Roman Catholic apologists even admit the history is there in fact They try to make an argument for Rome.

They say well if if the church can survive the debauched

Popes of the pornocracy and And Alexander and some of the other Popes that were just you know so horrible and and and the poisonings and the intrigues and and the the the centuries during which the

Cardinals Vied with one another to buy the papacy if it can survive all that it must be divine.

That's that's the argumentation you'll hear But I'm sorry standing outside the the the grandiose crypt of a dead guy

Who I don't consider to have been a Christian I consider him to have been an Antichrist Because he sat in the place of Christ.

He taught a false gospel He enslaved people and there's and and and their souls to a false gospel to a false.

Hope yeah that that impacts my looking at that And going that's a beautiful. That's a beautiful thing.

No, it's not No, it's not. It's just it's just a big pile of rock

That will stand as testimony in the end time To the to the utter corruption of the system that created it.

That's what it is and So you can draw all the pretty pictures you want on Idolatry, it's still idolatry

You know you look at the ancient temples that were built the false gods, and you go wow

The depths to which man will go to use the greatest gifts

God has given to him Simply to Cover over his own idolatry or to adorn his own.

I'd not even cover it over to adorn his own idolatry. You know what?

What can I say? Yeah, I look at it that way and I Point those things out do any of these responses by the way,

I'm on this again I'm reading what's linked on my blog do any of these responses deal? with indulgences

Deal with the criticism of indulgences that we've made of course not Master of these folks never even read what we say

They never even read the books. They just quote each other You know one person says

X Y or Z produces some some Criticism and then you just quote it ten times until it becomes truth and so anyway

Xavier continues on He He quotes from my blog

I could not help a smile as I scan around the structure the citation of all the key Petrine passages in gold around the top of the walls passages such as Matthew 16

Luke 22 32 etc Knowing how easily and forcefully the misuse of such passages can be refuted and has been refuted time and time again

I stood in the midst of the enemy camp and could not help but realize that everything I was seeing hangs in midair all of Its foundations have been washed away, and he says not to be missed read more well

How about responding to that how about why can't these folks talk about the pseudo is a Dorian decretals the nation of Constantine?

Why can all they do is refer back to something in the 1800s where some priest tried to?

Rehabilitate the complete misinterpretation of Luke 22 Is that the best that they have is is ad hominem mockery all that the great?

Roman system has I I I wonder And then he gives the link to the to the article

He says especially poignant is his deep reflection upon pausing in front of the tomb of Pope John Paul II for a photo op

Reflecting upon how the great man will be remembered, and I had said now, and here's here's a good example of why you should always

You know take the time to read the context that that people offer because I actually had

Made a little bit more commentary than is now here quoted of course quoting the whole thing would not have helped

The case that was being that was being made but Actually what

I had? written Was of course one of the longest lines

I stood in was the one visiting underground crypts specifically that of John Paul II No one really cared much about the rest of them and in a hundred years this one will stop will not stop anyone for long

Either period that's where he stops the quote what I went on to say was but for now it remains

It should be it remains. There's a typo on my part. It remains a huge traction Give him credit.

It's not overly ornate and in comparison to the gaudy self aggrandizing ones in the main structure it speaks far better than most that if you were going if You're gonna review what somebody said

Don't you think maybe possibly you might want to include that Xavier didn't Xavier didn't read it and Xavier left it off for a purpose, and it's a dishonest purpose isn't it

Xavier? Yeah, we both know that that's why the phone's not ring Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one you can dial it quick.

Yeah, you can and he goes on to say You know we Catholics have been extremely unjust in accusing this man and his sycophants of Anti -catholic bigotry surely you can all see now that the

Holy Spirit is upon this man And it is out of profound love for us that he and his minions Endeavor in the

Lord's vineyard through our slings and arrows to bring us to the true gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ bless you bless You dr. White for pulling the scales from our eyes

Where we had been kept in blind is held in slavery by the hellish counterfeit gospel system of works concocted by satanic

Rome Well Xavier like I said I've invited you to call in I would be

Happy and then he says PS can any of my fellow Catholics tell me again if they'll be supporting white in any of his future debates

I'm not sure what that means I don't I don't know what that means at all

Evidently just simply quoting something is he disputing that a hundred years from now

John Paul II will not be nearly as popular as he is today is that a What what exactly is offensive about that?

What exactly is untrue about that? How many by by raising your hand how many listening audience including

Roman Catholics Know who the Pope was don't look don't look don't

Google it Know who the Pope was 100 years ago. Who was it? I was down there nobody was stopping at whoever's his tomb was nobody nobody was looking at that It was a it was a factual

Observation why read anything into it and Why skip the part where I said you know what at least he you know

It's it seems consistent with the man that he doesn't have one of those crypts upstairs with the big

You know he could have ordered that He could have ordered that But he didn't and I dared say something that you know

I'll probably take heat for that for having said you know what give him credit at least It's it fits what he said about himself it fits the view he gave of himself

But no one will ever mention that of course no no no no no no we we can't be fair no

So Xavier Give me a call man I'm wide open here.

I'm not hiding behind my keyboard. Are you gonna hide behind yours? We're gonna do another program on Thursday got another one on Tuesday.

Why don't you contact us Xavier contact the ministry? Will we will meet your schedule.

How's that? We'll meet your schedule. We'll set up to do a program and You come on and we'll discuss this together.

How's that sound? Being open there Sure, that sounds good

That sounds like a plan to me then a

Guy named uncertain drummer says well. I thought this was a joke that I went to link. I am dumbfounded We're not told why what what exactly did

I say? That's that's that's odd I Mean my personal response to what

I saw is based upon my theological beliefs. I derived from Scripture How about dealing with that how about?

Interacting and not just throwing rocks I Mean is it really a testimony that this is the true church and that you have the truth that the only way you can respond

To observations that someone makes about your religion is to throw rocks at them to silence them

I mean that is the history of Rome there in Italy it is It's not Engagement and demonstration of error it is silence in prison kill murder.

That's that's Rome's history in Italy in dealing with Theological opposition they're just not in a position to do it at the moment

But that is their history so we have a system here, and you would think Wouldn't you that the best way to?

To demonstrate that that's not an accurate picture of Rome is to do something other than that, but that's that's not what happens

I mean art Sippo then weighs in and of course art simple can't write anything that isn't just filled with acid

And you can read what he says he's you know the man is is beyond Any type of rational dialogue or discussion

But I'll just read the one thing that he said here. He said Mr.. White is an ignorant bigot who has no academic credentials.

I guess fuller seminary doesn't exist And I haven't been teaching for ten years, but anyway He was raised by bigots to be a bigot and would parade around a white sheet burning crosses on people's lawns

If there was any money in it, there's there's art Sippo and I Told y 'all that that art was was the most immature man.

I've ever debated He he's probably the most arrogant and nasty man. I've ever debated and and that's probably why the tapes quote -unquote well tapes of the quote -unquote debate that we did in 1991 just sort of disappeared, but we've made available that which we have and The rest you the rest you have to take either my word or art

Sippo's and you know what I will be more than glad To let you read the body of literature produced by art

Sippo and what I've read I've produced and We'll go from there. How's how's that and but I'd like to look at something that's

Uncertain drummer said in the next part of that and we also have a Phone call and we'll take your phone calls at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one

But we're gonna take our break and be right back So Christians around the globe are having the very foundation of their faith challenged at an unprecedented level from every imaginable source

Never before in history has the authority and inspiration of the Holy Scriptures been so viciously attacked by those outside the pale of orthodoxy

And within the walls of traditional evangelicalism itself questions that plague the steadfast

Christian from the onslaught of Bible skeptics such as the Jesus seminar the DaVinci Code and Wolves -and -sheep's clothing meet many without needed answers

Is the Bible a product of man not of God? Is it true that the

New Testament is a false testimony? Is it true that the canon of Scripture was distorted by men with a political agenda?

Is it true that Jesus's divinity was the result of a boat of bishops? Is the

Bible true? Join us

August 26 and 27th for the 2005 Alpha and Omega Ministries National Conference in Seattle, Washington as we answer the tough questions and challenge the false presuppositions of the skeptics and deniers of the gospel of Jesus Christ with the founders president and director dr.

Tom Askell the director of Baptist Studies Center at Westminster Theological Seminary Dr.

James Renahan And the award -winning reformed Christian musician Steve Camp and president and founder of Alpha Omega Ministries Dr.

James White and on Saturday the 27th of August don't miss the most important debate of 2005

Dr. James White versus Jesus seminar chairman and Bible critic. Dr.

John Dominic Russell is the Orthodox biblical account of Jesus of Nazareth Authentic and historically accurate featuring three hours of debate and cross -examination

Join us and be a part of this historic event that will sharpen your apologetic and reassure your convictions in God's perfect and holy word

Seating is limited. So sign up today at a o n dot org or call eight seven seven seven five three three three four one

You should should make sure that you are getting ready for the debate a time is a wasting and If you haven't made your arrangements you you you don't want to be left out

You don't want to look back and go. Wow, you know if I had just If I just listened if I had just done what

I was supposed to do Dick discounts are ending what a 31st of this month.

Oh So that's that's a week from today So after this, you know,

I get so many people come up to me. Oh, yeah. Hey, can you still get me a good deal? It's like, um, where have you been for the past few months?

Yeah, let's just sorry Procrastinators are going to have a problem. There is just simply no other way about it than than that.

So You need to get taken care of I was I was actually taking the train the

Eurostar from Rome to Modena in Italy and I was listening to my mp3 player and I stumbled across the cross and Craig debate and I Was was rather fascinated by the fact that Listening once again to this this information

I Really? I'm not sure exactly how

This program is this debate is going to go what direction it's going to go But I certainly know that it is going to be foundational.

It is going to be important. You're gonna want to be there You're going to want to be able to say that you got to see it live because you know what?

DVDs are great. They really are and mp3s are great, and I'm glad that What we do in this debate is not going to be limited simply to the people who managed to Manage to be there, but But anyone can tell you that a

DVD despite the you know how well we make them or how many cameras we've got or How good the color is whatever a

DVD cannot? communicate to you those little things that only the live debate communicate the the

Expectation the air the the little mutterings that come from the audience every once in a while The glance that you catch from me or from my opponent or the moderator

That the camera doesn't All that stuff is is important and so that the conference is going to be important We're going to be working hard to present to you

Important information, and we've got excellent people speaking and you're going to want to be there for that and So I would very much encourage you

Get off your your seat if you've if you've been going man. I really want to do that now It's time to do it. Don't put it off Take care of the issue now

So that you can get the best The best arrangements and do not put it off any longer take my take my advice, so please do that I'm also by the way very excited about next week's debate.

Well, not is it next week now the week after the week afters debate on Long Island the 9th of June against Bill Rutland on the subject of can a non -christian enter into heaven

I really believe That this is going to be an excellent opportunity to contrast

The views of modern Roman Catholicism and Honestly Sadly in the same way modern

Evangelicalism post evangelicalism pseudo evangelicalism however want to put it with the biblical gospel it's going to be an excellent contrast and I will just be very upfront and saying

I realize that I am going to be Approaching this particular debate in such a way that once again

I am going to be putting myself in the position of defending the minority and That's fine.

I like being in that position. That's okay But I did get to spend some time some downtime in Italy Writing yes with with a pen what a concept that was on Paper even in in written form

I was not using a keyboard Writing out various thoughts concerning the debate challenges directions

I'm going to be going so I've certainly been starting that process as to how I'm going to present it and That is

Thursday night June 9th Huntington townhouse the information is on the website. I need to update the

I Need to update the calendar page because it's still what should still probably have the

Italy stuff on it But it's there on the calendar page take a look at that and if you are in the area

You are certainly invited to participate in that once again They are well attended, and I think you would find them to be very very useful as well

So make sure that's kind of and then before that I should mention this since we're getting all this before we take our phone call since We're getting all this out of the way

I should likewise mention the fact that The weekend before that I'll be hit Bethlehem Bible Church Up in West Broylston, Massachusetts the information is also on the web page

Doing a number of presentations there, so if you're in the Massachusetts area, or you know

New England's not huge So if you're if you're in that particular area And you've wanted to get together with me and say hello or something like that that would be the time to do so The information is there and then

I'll be down at Trinity Fellowship Church in New Jersey Tom's River, New Jersey The Sunday a

Saturday and Sunday after the debate, so I'll be Leaving from New York driving down to a new

Jersey if the Garden State Parkway Doesn't turn into a parkway. That is a place where you park

And Take you know four hours to get there something like that, but we will be down there on Monday and I'm sorry

Saturday and Sunday and Thus we would invite you to be there. Let's go ahead and take our

Our caller here and talk with Eddie. Hi Eddie. How you doing? Hey, hey, man

Won't you miss your wife? Oh, please don't even know What are you trying to do?

Yes, I was gonna kick anybody off they had a channel who started going cha -cha yeah well,

I just wanted to share an observation in relation to the posting that you're speaking about with Xavier and the

In that Catholic chat board. Yes. Uh -huh Well, I was

Roman Catholic for almost 20 years and Served as an altar boy and I can remember back in those days

Distinctly, I remember there was a certain awe and holiness that came with all the candles and the gold and statues and you know the whole grandeur of all that's the

Roman system and It was amazing that after my wife and I were converted when we were born again

We went right back to the Catholic Church. Hmm, because we got we were converted through a ministry of a word -faith evangelistic effort and We didn't know any better.

No one discipled us. No one took us in so we just went back to church so and I can remember we sat in that mass and About maybe 15 20 minutes into it.

We became completely convinced that something just wasn't right and It seemed as though there's awe and grandeur and the things that we thought were holy and divine became

Just false mystic empty eerie spooky. And so I can relate to both sides of these comments

Because like Xavier and these other folks, I remember when that was almost God himself to me yes, you know and to see those statues was like I wanted to just touch it and Feel it and say wow, you know, this is actually like the

Pope's pen. It was his shoe It was because we were taught so much so that this was the vicar.

Mm -hmm This was the representation on earth. And I mean, I remember seeing my mother and other friends and people weeping

That this was the closest to God. We were ever going to get in this life. Mm -hmm. And then when my heart was changed

It changed everything and we got up and left right in the middle of mass I grabbed my wife's hand and I said, let's get out of here.

We went in the parking lot She says that was weird. And we thought we both were like we and understand we had no discipleship

We had no training in theology yet, right? It's just our spirit and that goes to answer the question when people say how long can a born -again?

Individual stay within the Roman system. Mm -hmm I don't have an answer but I can only speak about my life, right and it's difficult for me to see how that could happen

Right because where God is and where the false gods are there's a stark difference

Even when you don't have the theological training, right, right, you know And so when I read your blog on that I was

I could it just hit me I said, you know Praise be to God because I remember the day when

I would have really really loved to have gone on that trip Mm -hmm, you know and it wouldn't have been just some dead cold marble.

It would have been much more alive and vibrant Oh, yeah, I you know and I should say we've gotten a number of positive responses a number of people have commented

Yeah, but what you said really Blessed me and it really you know, I understand what you're saying.

So I don't want to just focus on the negative It's just and I fully do understand why people who think that Rome is

What Rome claims to be would just look at what I'm saying going man What a clueless person but these are supposed to be people who actually engage in in apologetics

They're supposed to be people who have some kind of knowledge that that they can see these things and they show no evidence of actually recognizing their own traditions their own

You know starting points nothing like that in any way shape or form and so That was part of it

And of course then they have to throw in the the ad hominems along with it just simply right to throw it in But it's true.

I I look I looked around that place and it was interesting Okay, someone could say maybe everybody in there weren't

Roman Catholics. There was no sense of worship or reverence or There was there was just nothing it was cold.

It was it was dead. You know, you're looking at these people and They were they were

What I saw was an attempt Upon the part of people who held a position that is just simply truly blasphemous in God's sight the idea of letting people call you the

Vicar of Christ and kissing your ring and bowing down in front of you and Calling you Holy Father and all the rest of stuff and this is their one last

Attempt to maintain that even after death right and it didn't work

It's amazing. I had a friend of mine Tell me one day he says You know, you know that couple that lives down the way and it's this couple have

Alexis and a nice house He says they claim to be Christians and have this big church This guy's a Roman Catholic.

Mm -hmm He says they claim to be Christians and they and he says they're just milking you know Other they're just milking off the backs of the people in that church.

He drives Alexis He's got this house and I giggled and I just looked at him and I said, um Well, don't you think that sort of pales in comparison to the palace the

Pope live in? And he looks at me like oh, oh it never even entered his mind now and the conversation ceased and then not a week later

I'm speaking with another lady about church matters at our church deal with some legal property issues and She sees all the name changes with the corporations through different pastorates and things and she says boy

I'm glad I'm in the Roman Catholic Church. She's like no offense, but you know, we just got one name one church

Do you really want to compare The corruptedness of your documents and properties to mine

Yeah, I mean At least your documents are real. You didn't have to make them up. Exactly If you look at me, she says you didn't just say that did you?

She didn't know you very well, did she? Exactly, of course, you know, she quickly went on with the business at hand

Oh, yeah, sure, but you know and and those are the ways that I try to just you know And yet you got to be graceful about it.

Sure, but the the massive amount of ignorance You know, it's one thing to argue with people I know you know this but it's one thing to argue with folks when they actually have the facts, right?

That's a true discussion, right? But when they come up with the silliness of oh this Baptist guy's got a lot of money and they're

Catholic and they're complaining about the richness of the church and The people in it. It's like, um, can we back up a few pages?

Well, you know, it's almost like okay But that money and that corruption was centuries ago.

And so it doesn't matter anymore It's okay now, right that almost seems to be the idea that hey as long as it as long as the current guys who are living

In there aren't still selling indulgences to continue building this place then we don't have to worry about how this place was built in the first place or what it represents or we don't have to Examine the attitudes that are represented within this

This this mausoleum and these statues and and all the rest of we don't have to examine the attitude

This represents on a biblical basis once it's there. It's there where the church deal with it

It is is in essence what many people seem to think so All right, you know when you look at those when you look at those postings just on an ending note those those folks you're right

Their arguments are tantamount to I know you're but what am I? Yeah Exactly that seems to be the level of it.

All right. Okay, man. Thanks a lot It's good to be back. I'm God bless. Bye. Bye that fellow would have handled the sorry about that that fellow would have handled the the food in Italy a lot better than His his

Palate is a bit wider than mine I I wanted to get to this uncertain drummer post, but I want to read another one

There was a fellow well, so a single person one post. So maybe this fella saw let's see

Yeah, look at this isn't it this is interesting this post went up this morning at 1026 a .m.

And so I think this was the result of someone seeing this on my blog possibly But it says this form is read by a lot of people even though I agree with your assessment of JW Thank you very much.

I think we need to speak the truth charitably. Well, the problem is since this assessment is in regards to Possibly What our civil said where's the truth in nothing but but acid -filled ad hominem, there's this what where's the truth there?

Firmly and tirelessly pointing out his faulty logic lack of scriptural understanding and lack of knowledge of church history.

Okay, who's doing that? Who's doing that? That's what I'd like to know We have a great opportunity to witness to those who read this

We are followers of Jesus Christ need to share with the world The gospel is presented by the church whose history goes all the way back to Jesus and not to a mere man as his does

We need to pray for him since he is in the dark and doing damage to Jesus God has given us a huge task and helping to bring about his kingdom and that's exciting.

Well, that's nice Tory I appreciate the fact that Tory at least tried to tell people like art Sippo, you know your your language

You know when you when you say that someone is a he was raised by bigots to be a bigot, you know

To talk about utter ignorance the bigot is art Sippo I mean just look at his stuff and and a person who's a bigot is a person who makes comments based on who someone is and To call my parents bigots and to start doing stuff like that I mean, you know what that man is written in comparison to what we've done

There's not even a comparison the attitude that's a perspective the approach everything is so different that it's it's not even but he doesn't see that He that this is this man is cultic in his blindness.

He truly is And that results in the kind of behavior you have here, but uncertain drummer.

I Love this kind of thing. In fact, if I can remember if I can pull it up in Eudora, there's also another another example of this

Did I put that down the Roman Catholic area or where did I put that when I you know, you get home and there's all this stuff waiting for you and you're

And it's let me see here it was forwarded to me by There it is there it is.

Okay someone sent a Email to us and it says this very very brief.

Unfortunately, no way as far as I can tell To get back to this particular individual.

It was just a comment that was left if you're seriously flawed understanding of indulgences Disenables your enjoyment of visiting st.

Peter's is this enables a word? Then do us all a favor and don't go back. Okay.

What is my seriously flawed understanding of indulgences? I Have debated purgatory.

I have debated indulgences against Roman Catholic apologists with PhDs Why didn't they say in the debate that I don't understand what

I'm saying? Why do they say I do understand it and then these people that as far as I can tell our amateurs with no

Teaching experience no publishing experience anything like that say you don't know what you're talking about.

Who's right? Who do I believe do I believe the opponents I engage in debate who teach at Catholic seminaries and higher institutions of higher learning or Anonymous people on a website.

I it's hard to say if you're gonna say I have a seriously flawed understanding of indulgences. Tell me and you know what happens 99 % of time when someone does this and They actually actually are in position to challenge them what they mean is you don't believe in indulgences

So you're wrong not that I don't understand them But I disagree with them.

Well that becomes Misunderstand because if you really understood then you'd believe in them. No, that's not the case

Okay, so dictionary .com disenable to make unable or incapable prevent there it is.

So anyway what's wrong with my understanding of of Indulgences show me where I'm wrong in how

I've represented the doctrine of indulgences and the role they had historically in the building of st.

Peter's was not a tremendous amount of the money derived from the sale of indulgences

Funneled into the building of st. Peter's Basilica. Yes or no historically It's a fact isn't it so Deal with the fact folks

Put your emotions in neutral and deal with the facts Continues by the way, why can't you support your claims by using evidence?

Perhaps that the Catholic Church or Pope John Paul a second teaches that Mary is the co -redemptrix apologist for the sophists deceiver of the uneducated

I Wish this person had given away of contacting them because I would have been very happy to have sent the electronic text of the chapter from Mary another

Redeemer that specifically carefully and accurately Documents the utilization of the phrase of the fifth

Marian dogma not as a dogma, but as a doctrine specifically regarding to the subject of Mary as co -redemptrix co -mediatrix an advocate for the people of God in the teachings of John Paul the second and In the

Vatican too and I would have sent the documentation that demonstrates in my own published writings the fact that I recognize the difference between a doctrine and a dogma

Did this person even read the book? Evidently not and yet they can say why can't you support your claims by using evidence?

Perhaps? I wrote a book on the subject Amazes me about these people they when

I talk about Carl Keating I read Carl Keating's books when I talk about Scott Hahn. I read

Scott Hahn's books Why can't these folks do the same thing? Why can't these folks do the same thing

I don't understand that if you love the truth white Okay uncertain drummer actually

Patrick and Patrick's a Christian guy who Takes lots of hits here Actually Patrick White's argue our absurd

Arguments are incredibly easy to dismantle Well uncertain drummer the number

Thursday now is eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. Why don't you people call in and demonstrate this?

They are incredibly easy to me for instance. Here is that for instance finally Here we go for instance

He says 2nd Timothy 3 16 through 17 proves soul scriptura Even though the same wording is used in James 1 for to say perseverance will make one perfect really

Wow, I've done all these debates Jerry Madetik's Patrick Madrid Mitchell Pacwa on the subject of solo scripture and no one ever brought that up.

Well, actually, yes, they did and If uncertain drummer would read the

Roman Catholic controversy or read scripture alone or read Holy Scripture by Webster and King Maybe possibly he might know that we are well aware of James 1 for and have addressed

Not only the differences uncertain drummer in Language, but of course the most important thing and that is an exegesis context is

King and Context the context of two passages is completely different One is talking about the ministry of the man of God in the church for teaching of doctrine the other is not and So to even begin to parallel the two shows an abysmal ignorance of the basics of exegesis

That is not how one would engage in seriously studying the

Word of God He says he alleges that since the Greek verb in Timothy is different than the one used in James The meaning must be different Well, it is the verb using

James is a stronger verb Meaning to make perfect to be completely sufficient while the verb in Timothy is not but the contexts are

Completely different and so the meaning of a verb when it is in reference to Timothy functioning as the man of God being able to teach and reprove and rebuke and exhort

Over against the experience of the Christian and going through sufferings and trials so as to be made complete spiritually as a believer as a

Christian is They're completely different contexts

How can how can uncertain term or not see this but notice while he is just demonstrated that he is the one who doesn't do

Exegesis, what does he then say? This is just a sample misspelled of childish arguments

Another thing his bike shop analogy. He says that since he can get everything he needs in a bike shop It is sufficient for his bike riding needs

He never explains how a bike shop is sufficient for your needs if you don't know how to ride a bike totally completely 1 ,000 % irrelevant

The point of the bike shop illustration Was what source do you go to to meet a certain need?

the need parallel between the bike shop and the truth of sola scriptura is to find

God's inspired Revelation so as to function as the man of God in the church

You're already the man of God you already know how to ride a bike the point is functioning in that way

It's God that makes you the man of God It's God that gives you the gifts to be the man of God in the Church of God Where do you go to be able to reprove rebuke exhort in righteousness?

Paul says that which is they honest us you don't have to go to multiple places I pointed that out in the debate with Patrick Madrid And I bet you dollars to doughnuts that uncertain drummer has never listened to that debate

He's going on second -hand information and That's what I find these folks doing they seemingly are are satisfied simply to quote each other as long as the

Catholics said it must be true an Amazing thing to observe it truly is and it just simply goes to prove once again

Where is the honor for truth here? Where's where's where's where's the beef as they said well? Wow that music says it's time to go

We will be back and so uncertain drummer Xavier The person who wrote to us and called me apologist for the sophist deceiver of the uneducated we will be back

Thursday night seven o 'clock the seven seven o 'clock Eastern Daylight time the number is eight seven seven seven five three three three four one guys

We'll be looking forward to hearing from you. See you then God bless It's contemporary

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