History of the Reformation

Timothy 2 .15, be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Alpha and Omega Ministries presents the Dividing Line radio broadcast. The Apostle Peter commanded all

Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give this answer with gentleness and reverence.

Your host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha and Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, you can call now by dialing 602 -274 -1360, that's 602 -274 -1360.

Or if you're out of the Metro Phoenix dialing area, it's 1 -888 -550 -1360, that's 1 -888 -550 -1360.

And now, with today's topic, here's James White. And welcome to the Dividing Line this afternoon.

It is a momentous day indeed for us because for a long time we've had a number of folks who have listened to the program on the internet.

We are a very internet -ready ministry, you might say. But we've had to archive those programs and place them on the internet.

And so those listening by that means have had to listen a day later or sometimes a few days later, depending on how quickly we were able to get the programs converted and uploaded and so on and so forth, or just how fast

Rich Pierce got around to doing it. Whether our computers are working, I remember once I tried to change a motherboard on the computer we were using to do that.

That delayed us by about a week. Don't let me change the motherboard on your computer. But anyways, today that's not the case, because thanks to OnePlace .com

and KPXQ, we are now live on the World Wide Web at www .oneplace

.com. And that means that all sorts of folks who have made comments to us electronically over the past number of months since we have been on the air and have said,

Boy, I wish I had known you were talking about this subject or that subject that we would have loved to have called in. Why don't you ever tell people what you're talking about, so on and so forth.

Well, now you can participate because we have that wonderful toll -free number up there, 1 -888 -550 -1360, 1 -888 -550 -1360.

And then again, of course, right here in the local dialing area, if you're in the Phoenix area, 274 -1360, you can go to our website as well, www .aomin

.org, and that has both a clock on it. For some reason, Rich is very proud of the fact that we have a clock on our website.

It's a green clock, and it's a clock that Rich has spent about four days setting, and he has it right now.

And the door is open over here, Rich, so everybody can hear you cackling as well. Remember how that used to be on an old program long ago, the fellow who was the background laugher?

Well, we don't need a background laugher. Anyways, there is a link directly to the

OnePlace .com connection to KPXQ, and you can get that off of our website as well.

So we hope those of you who are listening by the Internet will participate as well. Well, today is

October 30th. Today is October 30th. And what is the world doing?

Well, I was reminded yesterday I went to a doctor's office to my chiropractor and walked in, and all of the ladies that take care of things were dressed in very strange ways, and that reminded me that tomorrow is that strange day of the year, a day that I will tell you, so you don't have to call and ask.

I and my family do not observe it, and that is the quote -unquote holiday of Halloween.

But in reality, you may be aware of the fact that there is, buried inside all of that stuff going on, a much more important holiday, a much more important date.

I know a lot of folks who have never even heard of Reformation Sunday.

They've never heard about the fact that there are a few of us strange folks around that celebrate

October 31st, not by dressing up in celebration of death and evil and things like that, but instead recognize that, historically,

October 31st is considered to be the anniversary of the beginning of the

Protestant Reformation. That is that, historically, people have looked back at a particular event, marked that particular event, that being the posting of 95 debate theses by a

German professor at the University of Wittenberg by the name of Martin Luther. He was looking for someone to debate, in academic debate, certain ideas that he had, and in point of fact, his ideas were not overly radical.

There had been people who had expressed the very same ideas before him. But it was, in God's providence, the place and the time to begin a great move of God that, in reality, is the very basis of why, for example, we have the freedom, in this day and in this age, to be on the airwaves, to be on the internet, and to discuss the truth of God in an open fashion.

If you have religious freedom today, tomorrow should be a day when you thank

God for having it. Because the religious freedom that you have began to develop and come into existence because of what took place

October 31st, 1517, in the Protestant Reformation. Now, to be honest with you,

I think there's all sorts of dates we could use. I think there's another date I'll suggest to you later on that might even be better to use, but this is the historical date.

This is the one that, by tradition, has been observed as being the beginning of the Protestant Reformation.

And I would like to invite anyone who believes the Bible to be the Word of God, embraces the

Gospel of Jesus Christ, believes that we are saved solely and completely by the work of Christ, and not by anything that we can do, that believes in sola scriptura and sola fide,

Scripture is our ultimate rule of faith, and faith alone is what justifies us, not by anything that we do, that you might want to consider giving thanks to God and celebrating tomorrow, not death and satanic influences, but celebrate the fact that God, in His providence, has granted to this world an unparalleled opportunity of knowing the

Gospel, and through that Gospel, coming to know Him as well. That's Reformation Day.

And, in fact, I'd like to suggest something really radical to you. What I'd like to suggest to you is that since tomorrow is

October 31st, and hopefully all of you who are not providentially hindered from doing so will be gathering with believers in churches all across our valley and across our nation, and indeed the world.

I suppose I should say the world, because Martin might be listening in England. Martin may not know about this, but then again he may listen to the archive and find out that he could have been listening.

But, anyways, around the world, wherever it is you might be, I hope that on October 31st you are gathering in a

New Testament church, in a church that honors Christ as Lord and proclaims His Gospel without compromise, and that as you do, you would celebrate, that you would thank

God that something happened so long ago. And really, as far as the history of the world, it wasn't all that long ago.

Maybe you will think back for just a few moments at the darkness that existed immediately prior to the

Protestant Reformation. The darkness that existed in the world. The lack of religious freedom.

The persecution of the Inquisition. The fact that the Gospel had become so encrusted with man's traditions that it was no longer being preached or taught or heard, except in very, very small places and by a small number of people who were obviously persecuted by the established church.

It is hard for most of us here in the United States to even think about the fact that there was once a time, not so long ago, when there was simply one state church.

That one state church was as corrupt as the day was long. Everybody knew it.

Everybody knew that in the not -so -distant past, there had been as many as three different leaders of that church, each excommunicating each other and anathematizing the followers of all the other people that claimed to be the leader of that church.

That is, the Pope, of course. And that even though there had been a healing of that papal schism, that the papacy itself was much more of a governmental and military office than it was a religious office.

Immediately prior to the ministry of Martin Luther, we had seen things like the

Borgia Popes, and the debauchery of the papacy was well known to everyone.

It had almost become as bad as what had taken place in the 10th century and what was known even by scholars in Rome itself as the pornocracy, where you had popes that were not only the fathers of many children, but also guilty of murder, rape, incest, and everything else under the sun.

It had almost gotten that bad during the period of time immediately before the

Reformation began. And so people were looking for something else. People would not find any peace with God through sacraments of a corrupt church.

They did not find any forgiveness in that situation. And out of all of that,

God was pleased to bring us the Protestant Reformation and the freedoms that we have today.

But isn't it fascinating that tomorrow something else is going to happen as well?

Something else is going to take place, and that is the liberal Lutheran organizations, such as the

ELCA, Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, to be differentiated very clearly from the

Missouri Synod or the Wisconsin Synods, and the various Lutheran bodies worldwide that, like the

ELCA, I'll be perfectly blunt with you, and I may offend someone here, but to be perfectly honest with you, abandoned the

Bible, abandoned belief in the inspiration of the Bible, the authority of the Bible, and the teaching of the

Bible a long, long time ago, are going to sign with the Roman Catholic Church an agreement that indicates that there is agreement between the two bodies regarding justification, and therefore the anathemas of the

Council of Trent and the condemnations of various early Lutheran creedal statements no longer apply.

We've come to understand one another. I believe it was the head of the Missouri Synod that recently identified this as a selling out of the

Gospel, a betrayal of the Gospel, and that surely is exactly what it is.

And it is certainly ironic, and certainly purposeful, that October 31st,

Reformation Day, has been chosen for the celebrations of this ecumenical get -together, wherein, in essence, we have agreed to disagree.

The two sides have agreed to use such unclear and difficult -to -define phraseology about justification that you can actually make people on both sides think they're agreeing with one another, and, in essence, just hold hands and sing kumbaya.

That does not, of course, strike me as anything to be overly surprised about.

I know there are a lot of folks that are surprised about this. How could anyone do this? Well, folks, once you abandon the authority of Scripture, once you reduce

Scripture to merely the, oh, the ponderings of men about God, and you begin to believe that it's nothing but mythological, and that it's inconsistent with itself, and all the rest of that stuff, it shouldn't surprise you that, within a few generations, your followers, those people that follow in your footsteps, are not going to value the

Gospel of Christ. The Gospel is a biblical thing. It contains teachings that are offensive to the natural man, so once you've abandoned hearing

God speaking in Scripture, it shouldn't surprise you at all that you then abandon the doctrines of Scripture, whether that be to believe in the virgin birth of Christ, the physical resurrection of Christ, the deity of Christ, the

Trinity, or, of course, all the things associated with the Gospel, the cross, the grave, all those things, simply become myths and things that we really don't need to worry about too much anymore.

And so there are going to be those who are going to be clasping hands across what was once a great divide, but you've got to realize they crossed that divide a long time ago.

Sadly, many who call themselves Protestants today have also crossed that divide. Because when you go back, and when you consider the

Protestant Reformation, and you consider what took place at that time, the main emphasis of the

Reformers was that God saves. God saves.

Not that man saves himself with the help of God, or that man allows

God to save him, or anything like that. The emphasis of the Reformers was that man is dead in sin, and God is powerful to save.

Just that simple. And so a large portion of those who call themselves Protestants today have already crossed what was the great divide between Protestants and Catholics of the

Reformation. They just don't know it. They're just not aware of the fact that they have made that very fateful decision to embrace a synergistic view of salvation, the idea that man and God cooperate and bring this about, and that it's not all and completely the work of God, and hence

I would submit all and completely to His glory, and to His glory alone.

And so tomorrow will be an interesting day, because you'll have three things going on.

You will have those who revel in evil, those who revel in self -indulgence, who could care less about anything

God has done in this world, and then you'll have those who are reveling in compromise, reveling in a denial of the gospel under the name of Christ, and then

I hope, I hope that we will then have lots of folks who in a sober and spiritual sense give consideration to the fact that God has been so kind to us, that God has been so good to us in breaking the bondage that had held people in captivity for so long, and has given us the opportunities of proclaiming the gospel in its fullness, proclaiming the gospel that actually saves, and to do so with freedom and with liberty, it is a great privilege that has been given to us.

But it's interesting to me, I wonder how many people really know what took place at the

Reformation. It would be fascinating tomorrow to be able to sort of bi -locate or tri -locate or whatever it is you would call it, and be at a bunch of different Protestant churches at the same time and pass out just a short survey and ask people questions about the

Reformation. Questions about the Reformation. I'd open the phone lines and get folks lined up, sacrificial lambs on the phone lines, and I'll ask you questions about the

Reformation. Oh, that'll make them ring, won't it, Rich? Yeah, you're kidding. Sure, there'll be lots of folks sitting on the phone lines going,

Sure, take your best shot at me, embarrass me in front of the entire world now, not just Phoenix and the Phoenix area, but the entire world by asking me questions

I have no idea how to answer. But I wonder how people would do. I wonder if people could put

Martin Luther in the right century. I wonder if you asked a lot of folks,

Was Martin Luther a Baptist or a Presbyterian? How many of them would catch the joke? I think he was a

Baptist, didn't he live down south? You know, that's Martin Luther, wasn't it? I think a lot of folks would probably... That would trip people up, you laugh, but I think that would really trip a lot of folks up and make them go,

Well, I'm not really sure about that. I think Martin Luther would have absolutely been shocked if anyone ever called him a

Lutheran, but be that as it may. A lot of folks don't know what happened back then, but it is a fascinating story.

It is a tremendous testimony to the patience of God, because you need to realize something.

Sometimes we get really, really depressed about the spiritual state of the world around us.

We look around, and folks, it's bad out there. I was noticing

I had to, and I won't explain why, because the person that forced me to do this is probably listening, but a couple of Monday nights ago,

I had to watch Monday Night Football. I had to bring the TV out into my weight room, and I had to watch

Monday Night Football, because a dear, dear friend of mine, he has a problem, and we're trying to work with him about it, but he's a

Dallas Cowboys fan, and I hate to make that a public issue. I really do, because we're trying to keep that hidden and things like that, but he's a

Dallas Cowboys fan, and so the only way that he would come over and work out with me is if I brought the

TV out and we watched Monday Night Football. Well, the whole reason I mention this was that I was again reminded, because I don't watch a lot of network television at all at night.

I'm too busy doing other things, and the television commercials that were on during that program were absolutely degrading.

It was incredible. I could not believe the level of vulgarity that is a part of simply commercials, and the worst programs, those idiotic cartoon programs.

I guess they think they can get away with almost anything as long as they put it into a cartoon. Well, it's not really serious, it's just a cartoon.

I could not believe it. We can look at things like that and become really depressed about the state of our society, and for good reason.

But, one thing to always remember is that there have been faithful men of God who have ministered, and ministered with patience, ministered with long -suffering, in very, very, very dark times in the past, and from our perspective, it almost looks like God didn't bless their ministry.

And during their lifetimes, to be honest with you, they had precious little, quote -unquote, fruit that they could show.

But history proclaims to us the fact that they were, in point of fact, extremely used by God.

It's just their influence wasn't felt until generations and generations of people later.

Who do I refer to? Well, I refer to, for example, a man by the name of Gottschalk.

Gottschalk! Have you ever heard of a man named Gottschalk? Have you ever heard of Gottschalk, Richard? You're saying yes.

If I asked you what century was he in, would you even want to answer? Nah, I didn't think you would. Gottschalk was a man who loved the writings of Augustine.

And in the 10th century, approximately around there, 10th century, why don't

I write that one down? He got himself into a lot of trouble. He got himself into a lot of trouble because he proclaimed a number of the doctrines that Augustine proclaimed, including such things as double predestination and particular redemption.

Well, it was clear evidence that Augustine was no longer much of a favorite person because, for his troubles, he was taken into the city square, stripped and beaten.

At least we don't have that happening too much in our day, at least in our land. But he gave a testimony to what he believed.

And we know about him today. But in his day, he suffered for what he encountered.

Much more known to people would be individuals like John Wycliffe and Jan Hus.

John Wycliffe, the great Englishman, the man who so loved the scriptures that he translated them into the

English language, an idea that was considered to be absolutely vulgar in that day. How dare you take

God's word written in Latin and render it in the vulgar English. But Wycliffe had this radical idea that, you know what?

Believers should know what the Bible says. And you may say, are you kidding me? There was a time when people didn't think that it was necessary to know what the

Bible said in their own language? Yeah. The church mediated the word to people. It was considered dangerous.

And, in fact, interestingly enough, by many of my Roman Catholic opponents today, it is still considered dangerous to give a

Bible to a person without the infallible magisterium of the church to guide and direct and to tell you what you're supposed to believe in it.

Wycliffe was a great man. But he died without really seeing the fruit of his ministry.

Oh, yes, there were his followers who, over the next century, infected England with a love for the word of God.

But most of them were rounded up and killed. Most of them died for their faith and died for their beliefs.

It wasn't time yet, in God's providence, to bring that great

Reformation into place. There were a few other things that had to develop, a few other things that had to happen.

Wycliffe's teachings were carried onto the continent and over to a man by the name of Jan Hus.

Jan Hus, over in what would today be identified around Czechoslovakia.

He was a Bohemian priest from the town of Huseneck in southern Bohemia. Huseneck means goose town, and hence his name means

John the Goose. In the 1390s, he encountered Wycliffe's ideas as they spread across Europe.

In 1391, he was appointed preacher at Bethlehem Chapel and was made the rector of the

University of Prague. Most probably due to the influence of Wycliffe's ideas, he translated the

Bible into Czech. He preached the doctrines of Wycliffe and he was very popular in Prague.

And I like Jan Hus because he confessed that he liked to play chess. And I do too, but I don't have any time to do it anymore.

Theologically, Hus drank deeply of Wycliffe and he denied transubstantiation, taught justification by faith alone, and said that Christ, not the pope, is the head of the church.

As a result of these teachings, he was summoned to the Council of Constance in 1414 under a promise of safe conduct from King Sigismund.

Hus came into town with a small army of supporters and protectors, but as the council dragged on, these men had to return home.

They were just regular old folks. They had to take care of their farms and their crops and things like that. Finally, Hus was arrested and brought before the council

July 6th, 1415. He asked repeatedly to be shown from Scripture where he had erred.

His entreaties were, of course, ignored. He was forced to sit during his farcical trial dressed in a black robe wearing a dunce cap with devils painted upon it.

And, of course, the Council of Constance, the very same council that healed the papal schism and ended the existence of three papacies and brought them all back together is the same council that condemned him to death and burned him by fire after one of the bishops preached a sermon on destroying the body of death from Romans chapter 6, another wonderful example of the exegesis of the infallible magisterium.

Hus died, and from most people's perspective, he did not see the fruit of his labors.

But, a hundred years later, many hundreds of miles away, a

German professor of theology began to preach and teach on the book of Galatians and on Romans and on the

Psalter. And this particular Roman Catholic individual, this

German priest and professor, had been placed onto an academic track because he had tried to celebrate his first mass, but he couldn't do it.

He just couldn't do it. He was so taken in his heart with the idea of the holiness of God that he simply couldn't bring himself, since he believed it was the body and blood of Christ, he couldn't bring himself to handle it.

He was unworthy. And, in fact, this particular individual was known for going to confession, even while in a monastery, and confessing for six hours.

Now, of course, the thought that automatically crosses the mind is, how much trouble can you get into in a monastery that takes you six hours to confess?

Obviously, this is a person very, very introspective, very, very focused upon his sin, and recognizing that all the sacraments that he could go through could not bring him peace.

He tried everything. As a monk, he would sleep in the cold German nights without a blanket.

He would fast for days on end. He would abuse his body. And you know the only thing that got him?

The only thing that got him was a lifelong case of constipation. That's what got him. He abused his body, and he could never eat right after that.

And some of you know some of the stories that have come out of that. Of course, we're talking about Martin Luther, and as he began to study what the

Bible said about justification, he began to see some very important things. He recognized that all the sacraments in the world cannot bring you peace with God.

This realization began to come to him as he compared the

Latin text of the New Testament with the Greek, which he had recently obtained in printed form because of a man named

Desiderius Erasmus, who had published his first edition of the Greek New Testament.

And Martin Luther obtained one of these and noted that while the Latin Vulgate said, the

New Testament said, repent, have a change of mind, a change of heart, a change of direction.

And he began to recognize it wasn't what we do, but what Christ did that brings us peace with God.

And so, as he began to study these things, he became more and more uncomfortable with the practices of the

Church, especially with something called indulgences. And interestingly enough, since Pope John Paul II in our day has proclaimed special indulgences in celebration of the year 2000, maybe that's something we should talk about just a little bit more, but first, we need to take a break, and we invite you to participate.

Perhaps you have some questions about what has been said so far, perhaps some questions about the

Reformation as a whole. Maybe you don't think the Reformation was such a good idea to begin with. Well, here locally, the phone number is 602 -274 -1360, or if you're outside the

Phoenix dialing area, listening on the internet, or listening on the 50 ,000 watts of the station here, 1 -888 -550 -1360, 1 -888 -550 -1360.

Jump online, and we'll talk with you here on The Divided. Speaking of Is the Mormon my brother,

I should mention to those of you listening, wherever you are, that Monday evening on Straight Talk Live with Marty Minto, I will be in studio with a...

Well, I'm not going to call him a representative of the LDS Church, because that wouldn't be fair, because it is my understanding this is simply a member of the

Church who is willing to discuss their perspective in studio, but with a

Latter -day Saint to discuss the subject of Mormonism, and so that will be an opportunity for you to listen in, and again, participate, even those of you listening on the internet far, far away, you can participate as well at 1 -888 -550 -1360.

Rich, what's your obsession with this clock here? Are you really proud of that clock on the website? Is that the whole idea there?

Is that what we're supposed to be talking about? 5 to 7 p .m. on Monday. Oh, you mean the time. The time is 5 to 7 p .m.

on Monday, but that'll be Mountain Standard Time, because the rest of the nation does its fiddle with my clock and see if I can get this thing set right thing, and we don't do that here in Arizona.

We just let our clocks run all year long, but you all, you know, play around with your clocks, and so just realize that as of this, after Sunday, then we need to be thinking

Mountain Standard Time, Arizona Time. Our clock on the website will be correct.

Rich will be up at 2 .22 a .m. Sunday morning just to make sure that anyone who's logging on between that time and when most human beings get up, they get the right time in Arizona.

I really think that's a total waste of time, but anyways, that's what Rich will be doing. So you can participate then, and then the next, right now, the scheduling is the

Tuesday after that. We're tentatively scheduled, again, on Straight Talk Live on Tuesday night, following that.

Not this next Tuesday. It's Tuesday after that. We'll be discussing the King James Only controversy with a fellow by the name of Mr.

Kinney. We've been on with him before. And the Tuesday after that, the Forgotten Trinity. So for a while here, we're going to be doing some programs on Straight Talk Live, so those of you in the

Phoenix area and those listening on the internet can mark those dates down and participate in those particular programs.

So here locally, 274 .13 .60. That's 602 .274 .13 .60.

Or outside the Phoenix dialing area, 888 .550 .13 .60. And, of course, it wouldn't be the dividing line if we didn't have a few folks.

It would cause us a little bit of difficulties, a few uncomfortable questions. For example, Dennis.

Now, Dennis, I noticed that this time, as I look at the screen, there is no Dennis from Phoenix located up there.

And so does that mean something? Not that I know of. Not that you know of? Okay, so this is the same old

Dennis that frequently calls into Nationwide talk shows when

I'm listening to the radio? And I will remind you that a certain

Nationwide talk show tomorrow night with the switch, I assume it will be starting locally at 8, will be talking about the

ELCA Catholic Union. I was unaware of that. Well, now you're aware.

Oh, okay. If I could see what I wrote on my calendar, I'd tell you what the second hour is. Oh, you're talking about Matt's it?

Yeah. Oh, well, I'm sure he will be talking about it. He better be talking about it. Yeah, I wouldn't be shocked if he didn't.

Yep, but he didn't call me to talk about it. You know, he hasn't called me in a while. I'm starting to wonder about that boy. But anyways, that's not why you were calling, was it?

Yeah, I for some reason decided to flick myself by tuning in to the radio broadcast of the

Promise Keepers thing here last weekend. You know, I didn't do that because I was in normal Illinois.

Oh, and you were trying to be normal. I was trying to be normal and normal, that's right. Oh, okay. Well, anyway, one of the speakers,

I believe his name is Raleigh Washington, made reference to something like our Baptist brothers, our charismatic brothers, and our

Catholic brothers who believe the same as me. I don't know why he needed to attach that phrase to it, but I don't think the guy was

Catholic. I think he was just a Protestant being ecumenical. And I'm like, oh boy, here we go again. Well, you've got to remember, back about 96, 97, around there, and one of the reasons

I didn't address this two weeks ago is because I didn't have the information in front of me. The Promise Keepers organization took its statement of faith and in an attempt to be more, and this is that wonderful I word, inclusive, ran the statement of faith by a group of Catholic theologians.

And as a result of running it by these Catholic theologians, they made some changes to it.

And one of the changes was that up until that time, the statement of faith of the Promise Keepers organization had spoken of justification by faith alone.

After running it through the Roman Catholic theologians, it adopted the same type of language used by ECT, which abandons the position of faith alone and speaks of the grace of Christ alone, which, of course, in Roman Catholicism, that grace is mediated through the sacraments of the

Church. And you can compare the two. You can get the older version.

I have it actually in a graphics format, somewhere on the 45 gigs of hard drive space that I can never find things in anymore.

And you can compare that with the modern version of it. And it was around that same period of time that an individual, and I don't really feel free to mention the name of this individual, but he's a fairly well -known evangelical leader who would not embrace the

Promise Keepers movement, was talking with one of the board of directors, and the person said, Well, what's your problem with us?

And his response was, Well, primarily it's the ecumenical dancing around with Roman Catholicism and the glossing over of the fundamental differences that exist between us, especially in regards to the

Gospel. And this particular individual's response to him was, Well, if you have a problem with Roman Catholicism, you're going to have a problem with us.

And so since that time, there's all sorts of issues that people have brought up in regards to the books that are published and the psychobabble elements that have gone into some of these things.

But in keeping with our theme for today, it would seem to me that again, the issue for Reformation Sunday tomorrow would be for all of us to again consider what really is important.

What really does define the Church? What is the power of the Church? In our land, we are told that we need to get together over everything.

If we just quit being so divisive about these meaningless theological issues, we could have this huge voting bloc, and we could impact abortion, we could impact homosexuality, and we could impact all this stuff, as if voting populaces impact those types of behaviors.

They don't. I mean, folks, we need to realize something. Obviously you know this,

Dennis, that, hey, this type of behavior's been around for thousands of years before there ever was an American republic.

And you don't change people's hearts and minds by voting majorities, you change people's hearts and minds by the power of the

Gospel of Jesus Christ. And so we are told we need to just abandon these things, not worry about these things.

And you hear that, hey, you know my Baptist brothers and my Pentecostal brothers and my Catholic brothers, and hey, why not just go all the way?

My Mormon brothers and my Jehovah's Witness brothers. Aren't they open to Mormonism? I don't know. People ask me that question, and I'm really not sure if that has taken place.

My thought was, and again, this is one of the reasons I didn't bring it up as a specific topic, but my thought was, and this happened,

I know, back in 1989, with the Operation Rescue organization, the basis of involvement there was an acceptance of the

Nicene Creed. And I do not believe that any

Mormon who knows their own history and knows their own beliefs could embrace the Nicene Creed with honesty anyways.

And so I had the feeling, but I could be wrong, if somebody knows, if somebody has better information, please give us a ring at 602 -274 -1360 or 1 -888 -550 -1360, let us know.

I don't think so yet. But, interestingly enough,

I was in an LDS bookstore this weekend, in fact, yesterday, and I was looking for some particular books

I didn't have, but I noticed a number of books that were clearly meant to parallel the

Promise Keepers concept amongst LDS men. And really, the question would be, if you're willing to say the

Gospel doesn't define differences, then why make something as esoteric to most people, so beyond their personal experience to most people, is the

Trinity an issue? I mean, boy, those Jehovah's Witnesses, there's lots of them, they're moral folks, boy, they're hard workers, why not get together with them?

Why not get together with the Mormons? These people are influential in the society. Look at their family values.

I mean, they've got lots of kids, and they've got an emphasis on family time and everything else. Why not?

Becomes the question. Well, it seems to me, quite a long time ago, I don't know if this was the last time you were on with Matt, but he was talking about ECC, and he was kind of asking, or somebody was asking, maybe a caller, what possessed these

Protestants to act so un -Protestant, and I believe you speculated that, well, perhaps the common cause involvement over abortion got them to be kind of chummy, and it made it easier to say, well, you know,

I really like these people and respect these Catholic people, and it kind of made them vulnerable to budging on things.

I think that is exactly what I said. You have a very good memory, Dennis. I've said that every time people have asked me, and that's because people say, well, look at a

J .I. Packer. You read his introduction to The Bondage of the Will, or Owen's Death of Death, and you go, wow, this is incredible, and then you see him signing something like ECT, and people say, how, why, how can this happen?

And I really do believe that it was that working together, that staying together in the trenches that causes a reordering of priorities to where justification, the very means of peace with God, is no longer considered to have as high a priority as the cooperation and the alleged power that comes from that cooperation, and hence it has an impact on how they view things and how they do things.

Especially over something as intense as abortion, because I can understand having really, I mean, it's such a basic issue in life, and all these children being slaughtered, that for the society, us against them, it's easy to get sucked into camaraderie.

Most definitely. That's exactly what I, myself, have experienced personally in years past, and there is absolutely, positively no sane and rational defense of the murder of unborn children.

There is no sane and rational defense, especially egregiously, in regards to what's happened recently in the partial birth abortion issue.

This is the most absurd and obvious Naziistic type of thing that we've ever seen in our country, and yet politicians proudly stand up and defend these things.

And it's very easy, given the passion that those things bring, as they well should, to then go, you know what?

These other things don't matter, but remember something. It's one thing to bring a live child into the world. It's another thing to have a message that actually brings them peace with God.

And so we have to recognize the priority of the Gospel over anything else, because it is the very power of God and the salvation.

And that's really what the Protestant Reformation was all about. Many people lost their lives to give us the opportunity of embracing the

Gospel that we have today, and that really is a reason for celebration. Hey, Dennis, thanks very much for giving us a call and being a part of the program today.

And that opens up a line for you at 602 -274 -1360, 1 -888 -550 -1360.

If you're listening by the Internet, give us a ring. We'd like to know that you're out there and that you can hear us, and then you can participate in the program.

Just a couple of quick reminders. We just heard that wonderful commercial about What's With the

Dudes at the Door, and I just received this last week the covers to the next in that series of youth books.

This one's called What's With the Mutant in the Microscope. And I can just imagine what they're going to come up with for What's With the

Mutant in the Microscope. This is a youth book on creation, evolution, and those issues like that.

And I'm hoping to see the covers and the pages inside together in a finished book in the not -too -distant future here.

And we, of course, will be letting you know as soon as they are made available. 602 -274 -1360, 1 -888 -550 -1360.

Let's talk to Kevin in Phoenix. Hi, Kevin. Hi. How you doing? Hi, I was calling in regard to Halloween.

Gotta speak up just a little bit for us because we can't hear you too well. Okay, I was calling in regard to Halloween. Yes, sir.

I noticed that it's becoming popular that Christians are speaking out not to participate.

Mm -hmm. I was wondering if you can give me and anybody else some advice on what to do during Halloween.

Well, I can tell you what we do in my family. I mean, we explained to my children when they were very young that holidays are wonderful things.

We love Thanksgiving. We love Christmas. I know there are Christians who don't like Christmas, but I think there is a deep

Christian element to Christmas. But to be perfectly honest with you, I can't see any redeeming value whatsoever to the concept of Halloween.

In fact, interestingly enough, you may have seen the news programs recently. This movement that's been going across the

United States in these things called Hell House, people putting on these

Hell Houses where they do these horrific things and try to scare people into belief in Christ.

Well, I've got some comments I could make on that. But as far as advice goes, I would simply speak with kids, talk about the fact that Philippians, when

Paul wrote to the Philippians, he told us, whatever things are true, whatever things are honest, just, beautiful, pure, lovely, think on these things.

And it seems to me that Halloween is specifically designed to cause us to think on anything but what is true and honest and just and pure and lovely and of a good report.

And so as Christians, I think those are the things we need to be thinking on. Those are the things we need to be focused upon.

And so with our children, you know, especially given tomorrow, tomorrow is the

Lord's Day. And as such, we will be in our place, in the place of worship, hearing the gospel preached and the word of God proclaimed to the people.

And that's where God is to be glorified. And I think that's what should be done. And obviously

I'm not one who would in any way, shape, or form believe that a church should be altering its programs to this weekend somehow insert something to pander to Halloween.

Especially, especially given that it's the Lord's Day. I'm one of those wet blankets that would also have a terrible time with churches, for example, that have

Super Bowl parties, especially on the Lord's Day. That's because at the

Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church, we believe that God is glorified in the proclamation of His word and that our primary function is to proclaim the word of God and worship

God as we gather as believers, to be conformed to the image of Christ. And it is not to entertain folks.

And it is not primarily to be driven by what's going on in the society around us. It's to be driven by what the

New Testament tells us we're to be about as a church. And so, as far as Halloween, when it doesn't fall on a

Sunday, well, I'd say the same thing. I would explain to kids exactly what the

Scriptures tell us to do and how we are to be renewed in our minds. And if you want to provide something to do as a family with them that night, obviously that's fine and wonderful too.

But you know what? This does bring up an issue. And that is we can celebrate Reformation Day.

We can then be looking forward to Thanksgiving, which I think is a beautiful Christian holiday because the preeminent

Christian attitude is to be one of thankfulness. Make that truly a day where we focus upon thanking

God for giving us the Gospel and giving us salvation, and then use that as the springboard to move into being thankful to God for the greatest gift that He gave us in His Son, Jesus Christ, in the holiday season.

So actually, I'd see it as three things that we could do, focusing on Reformation Day and then

Thanksgiving and then the coming of Christ. We could focus upon all those things and really make it a wonderful family experience.

Alright, Kev? I have one more thing if we have time. As a whole,

I see it turning where we are coming out against holidays such as Halloween.

I mean, I've even been under pastors who would say it's the Devil's Day. Basically, it's kind of giving the message to the

Christians to go inside their houses and hide. I personally have grown from writings you have written.

I grew up in a Catholic church my whole life. I've read some of the things you have written.

For example, when this holiday comes around, I think it's the easiest thing to tell people not to do that.

The hard thing is to say that every day is a day for the Lord and to live for Him. Whatever way

I understand that, I don't go around dressing up in Devil costumes. On the other hand, I take my children to go to the pumpkin patch and pick out a pumpkin.

I understand that that is something that is looked down upon. My real concern is it's looked down upon within the church, but what witnesses the church to those who are in the world that don't have

Christ as their Savior? I think we're just taking our battles, we're picking the wrong place to battle.

Well, I don't see anything redeeming in the holiday itself.

Celebrating every day is a day and the Lord is certainly one thing. But as far as engaging in things within our families, you have to be convinced within your own heart that what you're doing is fine and that you're not in any way, shape or form giving any type of allegiance or commendation or anything else to that which is clearly anti -biblical and anti -scriptural.

But as far as what we need to be focused upon and the witness we're giving, I think the witness that we give to the people needs to be focused upon who

Christ is and the fact that we live a life that is different from Him, different from the world because of that.

And unfortunately we have run out of time and we need to say so long for this week, but please feel free to give us a ring next week here on The Dividing Line as we continue looking at these important subjects and continue to lift up the