History of the Reformation

The Call to Rightly Divide the Word of Truth

Timothy 2 15. Be diligent to present yourself approved to God. A worker who does not need to be ashamed rightly. Dividing the Word of Truth. Alpha and Omega Ministries presents the dividing line radio broadcast.

The Apostle Peter commanded all Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us yet to give this answer with gentleness and reverence. Your host is dr. James White director of Alpha and Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White you can call now by dialing 602 -274 -1360 that's 602 -274 -1360 or if you're out of the Metro Phoenix dialing area it's 1 -888 -550 -1360 that's 1 -888 -550 -1360.

And now with today's topic here's James White and welcome to the dividing line.

Reformation Day Versus Halloween

This afternoon it is a momentous day indeed for us because for a long time we've had a number of folks who have listened to the program on the internet. We are a very internet ready ministry you might say.

But we've had to archive those programs and place them on the internet. And so those listening by that means have had to listen a day later or sometimes a few days later depending on how quickly we were able to get the programs converted and uploaded and so on so forth or just how fast Rich Pierce got around to doing it whether our computers are working.

I remember once I tried to change a motherboard on the computer we were using to do that that delayed us by about a week. Don't let me change the motherboard on your computer. But anyways today that's not the case because thanks to oneplace .com and KPXQ we are now live on the worldwide web at www .oneplace .com and that means that all sorts of folks who have made comments to us electronically over the past a number of months since we have been on the air and have said boy I wish I had known you were talking about this subject or that subject that would love to have called in why don't you ever tell people what you're talking about.

So on and so forth. Well now you can participate because we have that wonderful toll-free number up there 1 -888 -550 -1360 1 -888 -550 -1360. And then again of course right here in the local dialing area if you're in the Phoenix area 274 -1360 you can go to our website as well www .aomin .org and that has both a clock on it.

For some reason Rich is very proud of the fact that we have a clock on our website. It's a green clock and it's a clock that Rich has spent about four days setting and he has it right now and the door is open over here Rich.

So everybody can hear you cackling as well. Sort of remember how that used to be on an old program long ago. The fellow who is the background laugher. Well we don't need a background laugher. Anyways there is a link directly to the OnePlace .com connection to KPXQ and you can get that off of our website as well.

So we hope those of you who are listening by the internet will participate as well. Well today is October 30th. Today is October 30th. And what is the world doing. Well I was reminded yesterday I went to a doctor's office to my chiropractor and walked in and all of the ladies that take care of things were dressed in very strange ways.

And that reminded me that tomorrow is that strange day of the year a day that I will tell you so you don't have to call and ask. I and my family do not observe it. And that is the quote-unquote holiday of Halloween.

But in reality you may be aware of the fact that there is in in buried inside all of that stuff going on a much more important holiday a much more important date. I know a lot of folks who have never even heard of Reformation Sunday.

They've never heard about the fact that there are a few of us strange folks around that celebrate October 31st not by dressing up in celebration of death and evil and things like that but instead recognize that historically October 31st is considered to be the anniversary of the beginning of the Protestant Reformation.

That is that historically people have looked back at a particular event mark that particular event that being the posting of 95 debate theses by a German professor at the University of Wittenberg by the name of Martin Luther he was looking for someone to debate in academic debate certain ideas that he had in point of fact his ideas were not overly radical there had been people who had expressed the very same ideas before him.

But it was in God's providence the place and the time to begin a great move of God that in reality is the very basis of why for example we have the freedom in this day and in this age to be on the airwaves to be on the Internet and to discuss the truth of God in an open fashion.

If you have religious freedom today tomorrow should be a day when you thank God for having it because the religious freedom that you have began to develop and come into existence because of what took place October 31st 1517 in the Protestant Reformation.

Now to be honest with you I think there's all sorts of dates we could use. I think there's another date I'll suggest you later on that might even be better to use. But this is the historical date. This is the one that by tradition has been observed as being the beginning of the Protestant Reformation.

And I would like to invite anyone who believes the Bible to be the Word of God embraces the gospel of Jesus Christ believes that we are saved solely and completely by the work of Christ and not by anything that we can do that believes in solo scriptura and solo fide.

Scripture is our ultimate rule of faith and faith alone is what justifies us not by anything that we do. That you might want to consider giving thanks to God and celebrating tomorrow not death and satanic influences but celebrate the fact that God in his providence has granted to this world an unparalleled opportunity of knowing the gospel and through that gospel coming to know him as well.

That's Reformation Day. And in fact I'd like to suggest something really radical to you. What I'd like to suggest to you is that since tomorrow is October 31st and hopefully all of you who are not providentially hindered from doing so will be gathering with believers in churches all across our valley and across our nation indeed the world.

I suppose I should say the world because Martin might be listening in England Martin may not know about this but then again he may listen to the archive and find out that he could have been listening.

But anyways around the world wherever it is you might be. I hope that on October 31st you are gathering in a New Testament church in a church that honors Christ as Lord and proclaims his gospel without compromise and that as you do you would celebrate that you would thank God that something happened so long ago.

And and really in as far as the history of the world it wasn't all that long ago. Maybe you will think back for just a few moments at the darkness that existed immediately prior to the Protestant Reformation the darkness that existed in the world the lack of religious freedom the persecution of the Inquisition the fact that the gospel had become so encrusted with man's traditions that it was no longer being preached or taught or heard except in very very small places and by a small number of people who were obviously persecuted by the established church.

It is hard for most of us here in the United States to even think about the fact that that there was once a time not so long ago when there was simply one state church that one state church was as corrupt as the day was long.

Everybody knew it everybody knew that in the not so distant past there had been as many as three different leaders of that church each excommunicating each other and anathematizing the followers of all the other people that claim to be the leader of that church that is the Pope of course.

And that even though there had been a healing of that papal schism that the papacy itself was much more of a governmental and military office than it was a religious office immediately prior to the ministry of Martin Luther we had seen things like the the Borgia popes and the the debauchery of the papacy was well known to everyone it almost become as bad as what had taken place in the tenth century and what was known even by scholars in Rome itself as the pornocracy where you had popes that were not only the fathers of many children but also guilty of murder rape incest and everything else under the sun.

It had almost gotten that bad and during the period of time immediately before the Reformation began. And so people were looking for something else. People would not find any peace with God through sacraments of a corrupt church.

They did not find any forgiveness in that situation. And out of all of that God was pleased to bring us the Protestant Reformation and the freedoms that we have today. But isn't it fascinating that tomorrow something else is going to happen as well.

Something else is going to take place. And that is the liberal Lutheran organizations such as the ELCA Evangelical Lutheran Church in America to be differentiated very clearly from the Missouri Synod or the Wisconsin Synods and the various Lutheran bodies worldwide that like the ELCA I'll be perfectly blunt with you and I may offend someone here but to be perfectly honest with you abandoned the Bible abandoned belief in the inspiration of the Bible the authority of the Bible and the teaching of the Bible a long long time ago are going to sign with the Roman Catholic Church an agreement that indicates that there is agreement between the two bodies regarding justification and therefore the anathemas of the Council of Trent and the condemnations of various early Lutheran creedal statements no longer apply.

We've come to understand one another. I believe it was the head of the Missouri Synod that recently identified this as a selling out of the gospel a betrayal of the gospel. And that surely is exactly what it is.

And it is certainly ironic and certainly purposeful that October 31st Reformation Day has been chosen for the celebrations of this ecumenical get-together wherein in essence we have agreed to disagree.

The two sides have agreed to use such unclear and difficult to define phraseology about justification that you can actually make people on both sides think they're agreeing with one another and in essence just hold hands and sing kumbaya.

That does not of course strike me as a as anything to be overly surprised about. I know there are a lot of folks that are surprised about this. How could anyone do this folks once you abandon the authority of scripture once you reduce scripture to merely the all the ponderings of men about God and you begin to believe that it's nothing but mythological and that's inconsistent with itself and all the rest of that stuff shouldn't surprise you that within a few generations your your your followers those people that follow in your footsteps are not going to value the gospel of Christ.

The gospel is a biblical thing it contains teachings that are offensive to the natural man. So once you've abandoned hearing God speaking in scripture shouldn't surprise you at all that the you then abandon the doctrines of scripture whether that be to believe in the virgin birth of Christ the physical resurrection of Christ the deity of Christ the Trinity or of course all the things associated with the gospel the cross the grave all those things simply become myths and things that we really don't need to worry about too much anymore.

And so there could be those who are going to be clasping hands across what was once a great divide. But you gotta realize they cross that divide a long time ago. Sadly many who call themselves Protestants today have also crossed that divide.

Because when you go back and when you consider the Protestant Reformation you consider what took place at that time the main emphasis of the Reformers was that God saves God saves. Not that man saves himself with the help of God or that man allows God to save him or anything like that.

The emphasis of the Reformers was that man is dead in sin and God is powerful to save just that simple. And so a large portion of those who call themselves Protestants today have already crossed what was the great divide between Protestants and Catholics of the Reformation.

They just don't know it. They're just not aware of the fact that they have made that very faithful decision to embrace a synergistic view of salvation the idea that that man and God cooperate and bring this about and that it's not all and completely the work of God.

And hence I would submit all and completely to his glory and to his glory alone. And so tomorrow will be an interesting day because you'll have three things going on. You will have those who revel in evil those who revel in self-indulgence who could care less about anything God has done in this world.

And then you'll have those who are reveling in compromise reveling in a denial of the gospel under the name of Christ. And then I hope I hope that we will then have lots of folks who in a sober and spiritual sense give consideration to the fact that God has been so kind to us that God has been so good to us in breaking the bondage that had held people in captivity for so long and has given us the opportunities of proclaiming the gospel in its fullness proclaiming the gospel that actually saves.

And to do so with freedom and with liberty. It is a great privilege that has been given to us. But it's interesting to me. I wonder how many people really know what took place at the Reformation. It would be fascinating tomorrow to be to be able to sort of by locate or try locate or whatever it is.

You would call it and be at a bunch of different Protestant churches at the same time and pass out just a short survey and ask people questions about the Reformation. Questions about the Reformation we ought to.

I'd open the phone lines and get folks lined up sacrificial lambs on the phone lines and I'll ask you questions about the Reformation. Oh that'll make them ring. Won't it rich. Yeah you're sure. There'll be lots of folks sitting on the phone lines going sure take your best shot at me embarrass me in front of the entire world now not just Phoenix in the Phoenix area but the entire world by asking me questions.

I have no idea how to answer. But I wonder how people would do. I wonder if people could put Martin Luther in the right century. You know. I wonder if you asked asked a lot of folks was Martin Luther a Baptist or Presbyterian.

How many of them would catch the joke. I think he was a Baptist. Didn't he live down south you know that's Martin Luther. Wasn't it. I think a lot of folks would. Probably that would trip people up you laugh.

But I think that would really trip a lot of folks up and make him go. What I'm not really sure about that. I think Martin Luther would have absolutely been shocked if anyone ever called him a Lutheran.

But be that as it may a lot of folks don't know what happened back then. But it is a fascinating story. It is a tremendous testimony to the to the patience of God. Because you need to realize something.

Sometimes we get really really depressed about the spiritual state of the world around us. We look around and folks it's bad out there. I was I was noticing. I had to and I won't explain why. Because the person that forced me to do this is probably listening.

But a couple of Monday nights ago I had to watch Monday Night Football. I had to bring the TV out into my weight room and I had to watch Monday Night Football because a dear dear friend of mine he has a problem and it you know we're trying to work with him about it.

But he's a Dallas Cowboys fan. And I hate to make that a public issue. I really do because we're trying to keep that hidden and things like that. But he's a he's a Dallas Cowboy fan and so the only way that he would come over and work out with me is if I brought the TV out and we we watched Monday Night Football.

Well the whole reason I mentioned this was that I was again reminded because I don't watch a lot of network television at all at night. I'm too busy doing other things and and the television commercials that were on during that program were absolutely degrading.

It was incredible. I could not believe the level of vulgarity that is a part of simply commercials. And the worst programs those those idiotic cartoon cartoon programs. I guess they seem to think they can get away with almost anything as long as they put into a cartoon.

Well it's not really serious just a cartoon. I could not believe it. We can look at things like that and become really depressed about the state of our society. And for good reason. But one thing to always remember is that there have been faithful men of God who have ministered and ministered with patience ministered with long-suffering in very very very dark times in the past.

And from our perspective it almost looks like God didn't bless their ministry and during their lifetimes. Be honest with you they they had precious little quote-unquote fruit that they could show. But history proclaims to us the fact that they were in point of fact extremely used by God.

It's just their influence wasn't felt until generations and generations of people later. Who do I refer to. Well I refer to for example a man by name of Gottschalk. Gottschalk. Have you ever heard of a man named Gottschalk.

Have you ever heard of Gottschalk Rich. You're saying yes. If I asked you what century was he in would you even want to answer no. I didn't think you would. Gottschalk was a man who loved the writings of Augustine and in the 10th century approximately around their 10th century why write that one down.

He he got himself into a lot of trouble. He got himself into a lot of trouble because he proclaimed a number of the doctrines that Augustine proclaimed including such things as double predestination and particular redemption.

Well it was clear evidence that Augustine was no longer much of a favorite person because for his troubles he was taken into the city square stripped and beaten. At least we don't have that happening too much in our day at least in our land.

But he gave a testimony to what he believed and we know about him today. But in his day he suffered for what he encountered. Much more known to people would be individuals like John Wycliffe and Jan Huss.

John Wycliffe the great Englishman the man who so loved the scriptures that he translated them into the English language an idea that was considered to be absolutely vulgar in that day. How dare you take God's Word written in Latin and render it in the vulgar English.

But Wycliffe had this radical idea that you know what believers should know what the Bible says. And you may say are you kidding me there was a time when people didn't didn't think that it was necessary to know what the Bible said in their own language.

Yeah the church mediated the word to people. It was considered dangerous and in fact interestingly enough by many of my Roman Catholic opponents today is still considered dangerous to give a Bible to a person without the infallible magisterium of the church to guide and direct and to tell you what you're supposed to believe in it.

Wycliffe was a great man but he died without really seeing the fruit of his ministry. Oh yes there were his followers who over the next century infected England with a love the Word of God but most of them were rounded up and killed.

Most of them died for their faith and died for their beliefs. It wasn't time yet in God's providence to bring that great Reformation into place. There are a few other things that had to develop for things that had to happen.

Wycliffe's teachings were carried on the continent and over to a man by the name of Jan Hus. Jan Hus over and what would today be identified around Czechoslovakia. He was a Bohemian priest from the town of Husenek in southern Bohemia.

Husenek means goose town and hence his name means John the goose. In the 1390s he encountered Wycliffe's ideas. They spread across Europe. In 1391 he was appointed preacher at Bethlehem Chapel and was made the rector of the University of Prague most probably due to the influence of Wycliffe's ideas.

He translated the Bible into Czech. He preached the doctrines of Wycliffe and he was very popular in Prague. And I like Jan Hus because he confessed that he liked to play chess and I do too but I don't have any time to do it anymore.

Theologically Hus drank deeply of Wycliffe and he denied transubstantiation taught justification by faith alone and said that Christ not the Pope is the head of the church. As a result of these teachings he was summoned to the Council of Constance in 1414 under a promise of safe conduct from King Sigismund.

Hus came into town with a small army of supporters and protectors. But as the council dragged on these men had to return home. They were just regular old folks. They had to take care of their farms and their crops and things like that.

Finally Hus was arrested and brought before the council July 6th 1415. He asked repeatedly to be shown from scripture where he had erred. His entreaties were of course ignored. He was forced to sit during his farcical trial dressed in a black robe wearing a dunce cap with devils painted upon it.

And of course the Council of Constance the very same council that healed the papal schism and ended the existence of three papacy's and brought them all back together as the same council that condemned him to death and burned him by fire after one of the bishops preached a sermon on destroying the body of death from Romans chapter 6 another wonderful example of the exegesis of the infallible magisterium.

Hus died and from most people's perspective he did not see the fruit of his labors. But a hundred years later many hundreds of miles away a German professor of theology began to preach and teach on the book of Galatians and on Romans and on the Psalter.

And this particular Roman Catholic individual this German priest and professor had been placed onto an academic track because he had tried to. He tried to celebrate his first mass but he couldn't do it.

He just couldn't do it. He was so taken in his heart with the idea of the holiness of God that he simply couldn't bring himself since he believed it was the body and blood of Christ. He couldn't bring himself to handle it.

He was unworthy. And in fact this particular individual was known for going to confession even while in a monastery and confessing for six hours. Now of course the thought that automatically crosses the mind is how much trouble can you get into in a monastery that takes you six hours to confess.

Obviously this is a person very very introspective very very focused upon his sin and recognizing that all the sacraments that he could go through could not bring him peace. He tried everything. As a monk he would he would sleep in the cold German nights without a blanket he would fast for days on end he would abuse his body and you know the thing that got him the only thing that got him was a lifelong case of constipation.

So I got him. He abused his body and he could never eat right after that. And some of you know some of the stories that have come out of that. Of course we're talking about Martin Luther. And as he began to study what the Bible said about justification he began to see some very important things.

He he recognized that all the sacraments in the world cannot bring you peace with God. This realization began to come to him as he compared a the Latin text of the New Testament with the Greek which he had recently obtained in printed form because of a man named Desiderius Erasmus who had published his first edition of the Greek New Testament and Martin Luther obtained one of these and noted that while the Latin Vulgate said punitentium agate do penance the New Testament said repent have a change of mind a change of heart a change of direction.

And he began to recognize it wasn't what we do but what Christ did that brings us peace with God. And so as he began to study these things he became more and more uncomfortable with the practices of the church especially with something called indulgences.

And interestingly enough since Pope John Paul II in our day has proclaimed special indulgences and celebration of the year 2000. Maybe that's something we should talk about just a little bit more. But first we need to take a break and we invite you to participate.

Perhaps you have some questions about what has been said so far. Perhaps some questions about the Reformation as a in whole. Maybe you don't think the Reformation was such a good idea to begin with. Well here locally the phone number is 602 -274 -1360.

Or if you're outside the Phoenix dialing area listening on the Internet or listening on the 50 ,000 watts of the station here 1 -888 -550 -1360 1 -888 -550 -1360 jump online and we'll talk with you here on The Divided.

Ecumenism, Promise Keepers, and the Loss of the Gospel

Speaking of is the Mormon my brother I should mention to those of you listening wherever you are that Monday evening on Straight Talk Live with Marty Minto I will be in studio with a well I'm not gonna call him a representative of the LDS Church because that wouldn't be fair because it is my understanding this is simply a member of the church who is willing to discuss their perspective in studio but with a Latter-day Saint to discuss the subject of Mormonism and so that will be an opportunity for you to listen in and again participate even those of you listening on the Internet far far away you can participate as well at 1 -888 -550 -1360.

Rich what's your obsession with this clock here. You really proud of that clock on the website is that the whole the whole idea there is that we're supposed to be talking about 5 to 7 p .m. on Monday oh you mean the time.

The time is 5 to 7 p .m. on Monday but that'll be Mountain Standard Time because the rest of the nation does it's fiddle with my clock and see if I can get this thing set right thing and we don't do that here in Arizona we we just let our clocks run all year long but but you all you know play around their clocks and so just realize that as of this after Sunday then we need to be thinking Mountain Standard Time Arizona time our clock on the website will be correct rich will be up at 222 a .m. Sunday morning just to make sure that anyone who's logging on between that time and when most human beings get up they get the right time in Arizona.

I really think that's a total waste of time but anyways that's what that's what rich will be doing so you can participate then and then the next right now the scheduling is the Tuesday after that we're tentatively scheduled again on straight top talk live on Tuesday night following that not this next Tuesday Tuesday after that we'll be discussing the King James only controversy with a fellow by name mr. Kinney.

We've done with him before and the Tuesday after that the Forgotten Trinity. So for a while here we'll be doing some programs on straight talk live so those of you in the Phoenix area and those listening on the internet can mark those dates down and participate in those particular programs.

So here locally 274 1360 that's 602 274 1360 or outside the Phoenix dialing area 888 550 1360. And of course it wouldn't be the dividing line if we didn't have a few folks would cause us a little bit of difficulties a few uncomfortable questions for example Dennis now Dennis I noticed that to this time as I look at the screen there is no Dennis from Phoenix located located up there and so that does that mean something not that you know of.

Okay so this is the same old the same old Dennis that's frequently calls into nationwide talk shows when.

I'm listening to the radio. I will remind you that talk show tomorrow night with the switch. I assume it'll be starting locally at 8. We'll be talking about the ELCA Catholic Union. I was unaware of that.

No you're aware. Oh okay are you.

Talking about you. Talking about Matt's it. Yeah. Oh well I'm sure he will be talking about it. He better be talking about. Yep. But he didn't call me to talk about it. You know he hasn't called me in a while.

I'm starting to wonder about that boy. But anyways that's not why you were calling. Wasn't. Yeah. I. For some.

Reason decided to flick myself by by tuning in to the radio broadcast of the.

Promise keepers thing here last weekend you know I didn't do that because I was in normal. Illinois. You're trying to be normal. I was trying to be normal and.

Normal. That's right. Okay anyway. Leaves names Raleigh Washington made reference to like our Baptist brothers our charismatic brothers and our Catholic brothers who believed same as me. I don't know why he'd need attached.

That's Catholic. I think it was just a Protestant being ecumenical and I'm like.

Oh boy here we go again. Well you got to remember back about 96 97 around in there and and the one of the reasons I didn't address this two weeks ago is because I didn't have the information in front of me.

The promise keepers organization took its statement of faith and in an attempt to be more and this is that wonderful that wonderful I word inclusive ran the statement of faith by a group of Catholic theologians and as a result of running it by these Catholic theologians they made some changes to it.

And one of the changes was that up until that time the statement of faith of the promise keepers organization had spoken of justification by faith alone. After running it through the the Roman Catholic theologians it adopted the same type of language used by ECT which abandons the position of faith alone and speaks of the grace of Christ alone which of course in Roman Catholicism that grace is mediated through the sacraments of the church.

And you can compare the two you can get the older version I have it in a actually in a graphics format somewhere on the 45 gigs of hard drive space so that I can never find things anymore. And you can compare that with the modern version of it.

And it was around that same period of time that an individual and I don't really feel free to mention the name this individual but he's a fairly well-known evangelical leader who would not embrace the promise keepers movement was talking with one of the board of directors and the person said well what's your problem with us.

And his response was well primarily it's the ecumenical dancing around with Roman Catholicism and the glossing over of the fundamental differences that exist between us especially regards the gospel. And this particular individuals response to him was well if you have a problem with Roman Catholicism you're gonna have a problem with us.

And so since that time you know there's all sorts of issues that people brought up in regards to the books that are published in and the the the psycho babble elements that have gone into some of these things.

But in keeping with our theme for today it would seem to me that again the issue for Reformation Sunday tomorrow would be for all of us to again consider what really is important what really does define the church what is the power of the church in our land.

We are told that we need to get together over everything. If we just quit being so divisive about these meaningless theological issues we could have this huge voting block and we can impact abortion we could impact homosexuality and we can impact all this stuff as if voting populaces impact those types of behaviors they don't.

I mean folks we need to realize something obviously you know this is that hey this type of behaviors been around for thousands of years before there ever was an American Republic. And you don't change people's hearts and minds by voting majorities.

You change people's hearts and minds by the power of the gospel of Jesus Christ. And so we are told we need to just abandon these things not worry about these things. And you hear that hey you know my Baptist brothers and my Pentecostal brothers and my Catholic brothers and hey why not just go all the way my Mormon brothers and my Jehovah's Witnesses.

I don't you know I don't know people ask me that question and I'm really not sure if if that has taken place my thought was and I'd have to again this is one of the reason I didn't bring it up as a as a specific topic but my thought was and this happened I know back in 1989 with the operation rescue organization the the basis of involvement there was an acceptance of the Nicene Creed and I do not believe that any Mormon who knows their own history and knows their own beliefs could embrace the Nicene Creed with honesty anyways.

And so I had the feeling but I could be wrong if somebody knows. If somebody has better information please give us a ring at 602 -274 -1360 or 1 -888 -550 -1360. Let us know. I don't think so yet. But interestingly enough I was in an LDS bookstore this weekend fact yesterday and I was looking for some particular books.

I didn't have but I noticed a number of books that were clearly meant to parallel the promise keepers concept amongst LDS men. And really the question would be if you're willing to say the gospel doesn't define differences then why make something as esoteric to most people.

So beyond their personal experience to most people is the Trinity an issue. I mean boy those Jehovah's Witnesses there's lots of them. They're moral folks. Boy they're hard workers. Why not get together with them.

Why not get together with the Mormons. These people are influential in the society look at their family values. I mean they've got they've got lots of kids and they've got an emphasis on family time and everything else.

Why not becomes the question.

It seems to me quite a long time ago I don't know if this was the last time you were on MAPIT but he was talking about ECT and you said well he was kind of asking or somebody was asking maybe a caller you know what possessed these Protestants to act so un-Protestant and you I believe you speculated that well perhaps the common cause involvement over abortion got them to be kind of chummy and it made it easy to say well you know I really like these people and respected these Catholic people and it kind of made them vulnerable to budging.

On things I think that is that is exactly what I said. You have a very good memory Dennis. I've said that every time people have asked me and and that's because people say well look at a J .I. Packer you read his introduction to the bondage of the will or Owens death of death and you go wow this is incredible.

And then you see him signing something like ECT and people say how why how can this happen. And I really do believe that it was that that working together that's a staying together in the trenches that causes a reordering of priorities to where justification the very means of peace with God is no longer considered to have as high a priority as the cooperation and the alleged power that comes from that cooperation.