Just War Theory and Can Christians Defend Themselves?

Opening Banter and Podcast Introduction

Was Andrew the one that helped you get the podcast back up? Yeah, he did. Get the podcast didn't help me. He did it. Don't you think you owe him a dinner for that?

Welcome to apologetics live. We're here to answer your questions and challenges about God and the Bible. Meet your hosts from striving for Fraternity ministries Andrew Rappaport dr. Anthony Silvestro and pastor Justin Pierce.

We are live Apologetics live here to answer your questions every Thursday night 8 to 10 Eastern Time. You can go to apologetics live .com to join in the discussion. If you have any questions about God and the Bible as we say here We can answer any question you have about God and the Bible.

You don't believe us come on in and give us that challenge now. You heard that intro which means that well, Justin, what do you think? That means that intro? Somebody owes you dinner. Yes. That must mean that Matt slick is gonna be with us tonight.

Okay, we we will have to make Matt and you know, I I'll have to let Matt explain that. But I think he'll have a he'll get some some boasting out of it. Now. Finally after nine years gonna say he finally got it.

Yeah, yeah, this is gonna be it. So let me give you how this show came about tonight. And this is this I should say this is a ministry of striving fraternity you can go to striving for train org check out our resources if you want to have one of us come out to your church and do a Seminar weekend seminar we come to churches and we go to smaller churches.

I can't afford so don't think that just because you're a small church. You can't have us come out. No, that's exactly where we want to go. We want to train up your people so that you can then take it from there and continue that training things like how to interpret the Bible.

Apologetics evangelism social justice is a big one these days. We've been doing more of those I think this past year and a half than any other. So you could go to striving for an org check out there. So Matt slick and I from calm org we were discussing he was putting out a paper on calm at about can Christians defend themselves and We were having a long discussion.

We've had these discussions in least recent months quite a bit and We came up with the idea of having kind of a panel discussion here and We have someone who I will admit that I was nervous having him in.

But not as much as you are. Yes adjusted because this is one of my old seminary professors and you're now seminary professor. So you really have to be careful.

He will be soon. So you're gonna have classes with him. Yeah. So what I've decided to do just so you know, it's just not even speak I.

Know dr. Burggraf and he wants you speaking in class. That's good, this is a name that many of you won't know but he was my first choice in coming in as dr. David Burggraf. He's with Shepherd seminary and I'm gonna let him introduce more about himself but I knew him back at Calvary Baptist Theological Seminary when he was the Dean there and So he was the first choice to have in as glad that we had him in his Dissertation was in the issue of just war when I took a biblical ethics class with him, by the way, Justin.

Just so you know any class with him is great, but you need to take a history class with him. Because he's there the history is one of those things where you have people that just don't know how to teach history.

Well, they don't make it come alive. It's just dates and people's names and it's boring. Yeah, not so with him in fact I actually had we I had him out at my church wants to do it. We were doing a conference and He weaves through his systematic theology background with his history background.

So much so that what ends up happening is you end up getting a history of theology because he goes in explains. Well, why did they argue this because this is what was going on? And so that he gives that background so well, so I ended up saying hey.

Can you can you do a history of theology and I think he actually the I think a semester or two after that. There was a class in the seminary history of theology. When I was like, oh, that's great. But he'll love having him.

I will admit at that conference I just spoke of. I was nervous because he was taking notes frantically and I thought like oh, no. This is like back in seminary. He's taking. With all the corrections everything I said wrong and you know how you preach and you're thinking things like that.

Yeah. Yeah, I get done. I'm like, okay. What did I say wrong? He's like nothing. I said well you were taking notes. He's like yeah, I was taking notes.

You See that one person and you're thinking what. What I do wrong. I know I said something wrong just the way they're looking and you're just you almost lose focus especially when it's somebody that you really respect and that you really want to.

Understand what you're saying and and appreciate it. So yeah, well, let's let's bring in someone that's known by many here Matt slick from Karma .org. I at least owe it to you to let you explain why I played that clip at the beginning and.

And and then let you get a little gloating in because you did get all the reason is because you're you're you're an immature.

Person who likes to rub victories in. For years at a time. And so those of you who are listening who know the story. Unfortunately how it goes is this jerk right here. Repeatedly, I have to admit it repeatedly outsmart me when it came to Buying lunches and dinners.

I was even out at his place once got up 20 minutes early to go buy the dinner. And he'd already paid for it. I mean just stuff like that and then we got store. We got story years for nine years. But then on your what your 100th show of this show I Had.

I came on for one house here, that's right and I had sushi sushi delivered to your house. And so that's the only way I could get you. I had to be out of the state. Had to surprise you. It's up like that.

It finally works and I get a little bit of gloating on that so all right, I.

Should say the other just I forgot to say. The other person I wanted on was Phil Johnson. He does have some old blogs that were very good on the on this subject. He just he said he couldn't make it tonight because he's got an elders meeting at Grace Community Church.

I told him to get his priorities straight, you know. But but let me welcome on for the first time dr. David burgh. Graph. It is a distinct privilege for me. I I probably know you the best here. But it's a distinct privilege to have you on.

Let me for our audience if you could just introduce yourself a bit and and what you're up to lately because. This is the first time I think you and I have spoken to each other and probably would you say like?

15 20 years. 15 20 years perhaps. Yeah, and I was amazed when we got on you. You look old so. No, we call me back though back. I think I met you before you were in school in seminary. Had just a really good time together and even then I met you at a conference in New Jersey.

I think it was speaking at the church their invite on a Saturday or something. There was a conference and. We sat together over lunch or something and you just keep asking questions upon questions. But they were all good questions, and it's like fine.

There's a thinker in the room, and I enjoyed that. It really did and we had. What I think it was. Andrew, yeah. But that continued all the way through so thank you for the kind introduction.

It was way way over the top, but I think we actually met probably in in. I'm gonna say 90 or 91 yeah.

Something yeah, I just come back from doctoral work about that time and. And I think it was in Freehold or one of those areas or something yet. And it's a memory yeah, yeah, and so yeah, I can visualize the church.

It was a great opportunity, and we've been friends and when Justin mentioned hey He knows Andrew is like oh my goodness. Here a month later we are and so I want to thank Justin for that opportunity as well.

Well absolutely I'm just I'm really am thrilled. Personally I mean just you know I've been enjoying myself the the seminary. I pulled up the website, and I'm gonna try to get over here for everybody to be able to go see it.

The seminary is just it's excellent. The pastors the teachers everyone. Excellent, and I'm really yeah.

Yes, thank you the the seminary is about 18 years old and actually one of the best-kept secrets. Going on in it the reason is it it actually is a seminary in a church for the church Was colonial Baptist Church in Cary, North Carolina.

Now it's in December we changed the name to the Shepherds Church mainly because we're trying to do overseas work and always having to explain colonial colonialism in Africa or in the Middle East gets a little bit difficult and so We chose the name the Shepherds Church because of the we are.

Also we have a missions. We're sort of our own missions board with the Shepherds International, but the seminary As I said is here. This year we talked about 200 students that were primarily engaged in the Master of Divinity Master of Arts doctoral degrees and We were just in a feature article in one of the magazines for ATS the Association of Theological seminaries.

Because of the 270 seminaries right now seven of them are Growing by double digits and in the last five years where most of them are either staying Stable or decreasing and we grew 86 percent in the last five years.

So that's been pretty exciting to be a part of that.

Give me your background because I know. Some folks might be instantly even in what your undergraduate degrees were in as well as your theological degrees.

Well, I did not know about a born-again Christian a Bible believer until I was 22 years old. I had grown up in Minnesota and My parents had been in a Catholic background and so that's what I was raised through parochial schools.

After high school, I went into the service. That's when Vietnam War was going strong. So I enlisted and served in the Army Reserves and active duty for six years got out and Went to the University of Minnesota and graduated as a chemical engineer in bio Medical nuclear engineering and was going to go to medical school.

But my wife and I both my parents got saved and that was almost by accident. We became believers shortly thereafter and then I Ended up feeling called to the ministry. And so we started seminary in Minnesota.

That's our home state and Did a master divinity went on to do a master of theology Pastored for 10 years church plant and then pastored the church grew in Philadelphia area actually was Hershey, Pennsylvania area for 10 years and then I Pastored back in my home state of Minnesota for three I was invited to come back to the seminary and teach during that time I was working on a doctor of ministry degree went on to do my PhD at Dallas Seminary graduated in theological studies and Went to teach it went to teach as a full-time professor and chairman of department at Calvary Baptist Seminary and Became the Dean president and was there for 17 years.

And then for three years, I was asked to board at Clearwater Christian College did that and while it was there I was invited as a speaker here at the colonial Baptist Church pastor Steven Davey and We struck up a wonderful friendship that he was starting or leading his church to start a seminary they did.

And he was bringing together professors many of them who were had been friends of mine for 30 years or so Coming out of like the Masters Seminary Dallas Seminary as a seminary. We actually Birthed a seminary that came out of the womb as an adult.

And we brought professors who had over 200 to 300 years worth of combined experience teaching and 200 years worth of pastoral experience and so on our first blush through where most ATS seminaries get you know go through a process to get accredited our first blush.

We were fully accredited by ATS For the full first seven years before we had to go through a review. So the program has just taken off and we're all about church planting. We set out in 2016 to do 20 churches by 2020 and we've done that we're now trying to plant 25 more by 25 2025 so we plant churches and we're doing revitalization all over the country right now of churches and We've have extensions in Wyoming, Texas World South Carolina Florida now, Georgia, so we're Launching and we do sites in churches to that we call clusters.

So there's some pretty exciting things. We're doing some innovative things in seminary training right now.

Well, that's neat, I don't know if you saw in the private chat, but Matt says he wants to do his doctor of ministries. So we'll have to hook you two up.

Absolutely. Launched it last year having a wonderful program. We've got some firsts with ATS. And it's exciting and we we're we have a national conference now. That's. You'd know the speakers many of them they range from this year Al Mohler Irwin Lutzer to you know, the Kosti.

Alexander struck so you got to have a Jersey boy in there.

And Bruce where. Yeah, you name it so we have about 40 speakers.

Just War Theory and the Christian Right to Self-Defense

So let's get into the topic tonight and if you see on your screen, you can see it's it's Shepherds 360 .org is the URL mentioned that just for those who are watching who are listening on the podcast later.

So This has been a big issue Lately is the whole question of Ken Christians defend themselves. How far can they go? What what justifies? What can we do as far as? self-defense and and then the issue of just really just war theory now you Dr. Berg Ruff, you're that was your dissertation and I've sat in class with you going through this and Just for the audience to understand in an ethics classes you were going through Explaining just war theory and you're saying you kept going.

Well, I can't go into more detail I can't go into more detail and my mind was being blown with the different things I'm like, I've never even thought of that. I never thought of that. You know is it there was so much to it and I know Matt when Matt and I were talking He was like, you know, I really want to get someone that is that knows this stuff.

Well, there's someone we can ask questions to and things like that. We want to spend and I know we got some people backstage we want to spend the first part of the hour or so just First giving you an opportunity to kind of open up what just war theory is for a while Explaining it the whole idea of self-defense and then kind of just allow us to pepper you with questions.

Essentially kind of like a classroom. So If you could give us an overview What is just war theory? What what do we see as biblical principles when it comes to self-defense? Sure.

Thank you. I think we have to do in in that is a perhaps for a moment Talk just war theory and keep it on a national level where a nation can defend itself. And then bring it back into individual self-defense.

And so if you can break it into two categories that might help you quite a bit I Got interested real quickly just a little bit in this because I was doing my doctoral work in the area of theology and probably one of the most Important figures in what we would call the Western Church in understanding theology was Augustine.

So I was doing my work in the area of patristics and. And it was interesting because as I was studying The concept of or dealing with Augustine. I wanted to deal with How how theologians do theology and so during that doctoral work?

I was doing a lot of work it on that topic the theological methodology Beginning with the Bible its hermeneutics its interpretation. And then how do we make these profound statements that we do as theologians and as pastors and people go?

How'd you get that. And so I wanted to figure out how do how we do that? And Augustine is the ideal model because more he has done more research and and writing than other and there are more libraries dedicated to him Next to the Lord of any other man, who's lived.

And so I was studying him. But something in the process is he actually was the first Christian to write on a theory of War and when you study it he actually didn't he just he laid out the principles That deal with can a Christian go to war prior to him there was a Lot of ambivalence about Christians being involved even in the military.

And and is it proper for a Christian to be in the military and can? Christians kill especially when Jesus said you know in the Sermon on the Mount turn your cheek. Which is probably one of the most misunderstood passages of Scripture to begin with.

When it comes to this whole discussion of war and killing but What just war theory is is within? The idea of Christianity is there a way to discern whether a war is actually proper. Is it something can Christians go to war?

Is war then something that God would As it were permit and then so if we if that is possible then What would be the criteria for which then to say, okay these criteria are met. Therefore we can engage in a war.

We can commit ourselves and our troops are our sons and our daughters now into this war and and As they sacrifice for their nation. Is it even proper or is it something we're gonna have to answer to God for because we stumbled into it.

Once we engage in a war and we've met those criteria. Then how do we conduct war? So the two categories of just war in the words the terms JWT just war theory mean the justification for going to war and the justification for killing in war and.

And then how do we wage the war? And so there are several criteria for then What's called juice in bellow and that is the justice for going to war and then. Juice odd Bellum, excuse me. And then juice imbella is the idea of a justice in war how we should act.

So those are two categories we can go into those deeper. We can talk about the criteria. But it's important and the United States of America has used just war theory As its guiding principles. Most Christians down through history have especially once we hit the Reformation thereafter Luther Calvin Zwingli.

And in great theologians thereafter and pastors after that as and then the for instance in the great divines who will use then convesh confessions and others throughout the church and. And Canonists and jurists and today in our country you say in the United States Senators congressmen any from Christian backgrounds are going to appeal to just war theory.

And Lincoln did others did when we went to war right after 9 -11 coming up on its 20th anniversary when we went into Afghanistan then or the Middle East and then as we went to war again with Iraq. Every time on the floor of Congress.

They're weighing out the principles and they're talking in the categories of just war theory and and actually then it was Augustine picking up some early seed thoughts from Aristotle already on how the Greeks then the Romans used criteria for going to war.

Is this something we should engage in is it worth it? Augustine then came on the scene because he was asked by Count General Boniface. He was writing in response to attacks against Christians that your God of the Old Testament is a killing God versus Jesus so there's two gods and so he wrote to Faustus a Manichaean and he spelled out then the principles for war and he laid them the groundwork that thinking the Theology that later got structured into what we call just war theory.

And and so that's how we got to what has become then part of the Christian Church the last 1 ,500 years.

So could you explain explain what just war theory is. And. Then you know, let's dig into a little bit of how you know our day and age. This is becoming popular, right? There's a lot of people. You know specifically like you look in Canada Mint is.

You know arresting pastors. Freeing people that are rapists and murderers. Arresting pastors and then chaining up their churches. So that they can't go in. And that that really became a big topic here on this show even we had lots of none.

What should the church do? Cut the fence down and go in anyway. Do we do is as James Coates did by just going off-site and places like that? So could you explain just war theory. Then explain, you know, what your view is on how we should handle things in our with our own country.

Yeah, the I think you know to your to your intro right there Andrew what's really important is there's a host of questions that you're you're raising there and and. And it raises the question, you know.

Well a couple of things and if I can back up a little in just war theory and just sort of lay the Lay out the map and then we'll start Moving some things around on it or or if we could it let's lay out the the chessboard and then start putting the pieces in.

There really are three and I heard it mentioned already here. There are three categories that People find themselves in when it starts when we get down to the idea of what do we do in our society? One is the area of activism which an activist holds that I'll support my government and Whatever they say because obviously they know what's going on.

And here I am I I don't I'm not one who has access to the information they do and they have all these great Organizations we have, you know, whether it's our CIA CIA FBI whoever so they they have the channels in of intelligence and and and means to gain then the From the intelligence community.

I don't therefore I have to completely trust them. If they say we need to go to war then my job is just to stand up and salute and say yes, sir and Obey it in order to conduct the mission as they do that.

And so we just acquiesce to government that whole thing is called in For lack of a better term. It's known as activism there are of course objections to that because no matter what country you're in then if you Believe that you believe your government's always right.

And you know, so you got two opposing forces on who's right and who's doing the right thing. And then it's then you just become a nationalist. And in that sense there's no control because even if you're in an evil government You fall in line with the evil leaders.

Just then on the other side you've got Pacifists who believe all wars are wrong and we should not be involved and you have categories there of resistance etc conscientious objection and Which is a whole nother category.

Somewhere in there in the middle you have to step aside and say, okay, let's bring some rational moral Virtuous thinking to this the the most devastating thing that humanity can do and that is since the fall of man and Thereafter we've been killing each other and down through history.

Become become pretty good at it in The 20th century saw it on a scale that became known as the Great War in the World War. I mean, you know you start looking at World War one and 39 million people were killed 30 million of those being civilians.

Then we get to World War two only 20 some years later and 51 million people are killed in 34 million of those are civilians and that doesn't even include the genocides and since World War two There's been over a hundred and fifty wars with over 17 to 20 million civilians killed so it just gets out of hand as it goes on so It was then through like Augusta and others.

We need to we need to somehow Bring some sanity to what we're doing or or we'll just follow Bad leadership we need to discuss this and and so with that in mind Just war theory then is the concept as I said, there's two categories to it.

Let's talk first of all juice odd Bellum, which is the idea that? Justification for going to war now this is going to come up in self-defense too because the justification even for defending yourself.

But let's talk about Defending a nation or defending another nation a third party that you see is being Bullied picked on or is going to be lose its national sovereignty. Can you come to their aid? So with that in mind, there's if you there's about five criteria and if you wanted to you could look at for instance in the ESB by one of the handiest is to take the ESB study Bible go to the back under ethics look up war and you'll See about eight criteria there for just war theory as as they've spelled it out there.

But let me give you real quickly the criteria that are most common for when can you go to war? Number one there has to be a just cause in other words a Just-cause maybe as I said to intervene for an innocent third party third country or to punish an evil aggressor to stop evil or to defend your own nation from either aggression or overthrow so it's a just cause and in the idea then it with that in mind is Going then for just cause you want to if you want to I could give you scripture verses.

But the easiest one is just Revelation 1911 when the Son of Man comes back when Jesus comes at the second coming we see him return and he's coming to wage war. And so but there's a just cause. Number two then is in going to war is right authority with that in mind.

Has a war been declared by proper authorities. Just wars are not private revolutions. A just war. Is not someone who says? There are several of us in the state of Michigan, Oregon, etc. And we're going to go on a mass shooting of governmental officials because we feel they're evil.

No, right authority. Has the in our country? It's the US Congress has to wage war. Okay, and so with that in mind there's vigorous debate on Whether or not we should commit forces to this war the money the resources, etc.

And sends our send our sons and daughters into battle for us. So it has to be one a just cause number two right authority number three just intention or the idea would be. You know, what are we going to war for in somebody sometimes they call this comparative justice or right intention and so the purpose of going to war then is to justice and righteousness the with the idea a realizable goal of peace and Ultimately, it's not to their their just war does not permit you to go in with the idea of Conquest of taking over land we will expand.

And we can go Imperialistically and we can conquer and we will expand then. Our country in other words, we'll take over the sovereignty of another for our benefit. That's not at all. It's not territorial conquest.

It's not even revenge as much as back in when after 9 -11 well, we need let's just turn that whole country, you know into a parking lot. You can't do that a dirt parking lot at that. You can't go in and just decide we're gonna nuke a nation because look what they did to 3 ,000 of our people.

In the trade centers actually two thousand nine hundred and seventy seven of them died. So if we go in with that in mind, you know, you can't just it's got to be a goal of peace. Okay, and then the fourth criteria is proportionality and that idea then is Are the potential gains worth the possible costs and sacrifices of human lives finances, etc, and so You're not going to go for a Pyrrhic victory.

Pyrrhic went in lost all of his Navy, but he won the war, you know in ancient Greece. And so the idea is When you're left with nothing, what was that about? So Proportionality you weigh the costs you weigh the benefits and so this just cause right Authority right intention Proportionality and then lastly war is a last resort and with that in mind you use every negotiable and we do nonviolent means of persuasion To be to attempt whether it's blockades, whatever it is.

And you give it a reasonable Amount of time and you're going with the right spirit. It can't be vengeance can't be hatred. It has to be with the idea of gaining peace and protection Justice, etc. So those are the criteria for going to war in a just war category.

Okay.

Does that make sense? Absolutely, and you can see there Justin was quickly or Chris was quickly taking notes here and he's put them all out there. I'm impressed. That's. We have students in the in the audience here being good.

Expecting to do that, but he just found actually I was pulling from the the legal Us legal comm it actually it's not the same the same exact argument that you're making. What I found amazing about the argument and about the discussion is both of those.

Both the legal legal argument from US legal comm and what you just said is based on a Christian worldview. Yes, it's an atheistic You know anti-god. Because there is no reason for you to be just in a worldview of chaos.

There's no reason for you to be just in a world view. It says I should dominate based on my ability to come and take control. You know, the survival of the fittest does not allow for a just war theory.

So this has to be founded upon a Christian worldview. There's a there and Justin you raised some really good questions.

We that there's the second part of this then that is known as as we talk about it is juice in Bellum and there's actually two criteria that can break down into a couple of other ones. But one is once you engage in a war the the criteria when talking about juice in bellow Justice in battle the two major criteria and and I know others will say well, there's actually four.

But let me just explain the two and they make sense then how you get to four one is simply the word Proportionality. Yep. In other words proportionality in the use of force. Okay, the idea then is The You go in Proportionate then to the task or the mission at hand for it with that in mind then.

In World War two we would do that with when we went to war with Japan for instance. We we didn't just bomb every island. We just went to the key strategic ones in that strategy was let you know wither on the vine.

In other words, why kill unnecessarily? It's just gonna burn out. So there's proportionality in other words. No greater destruction should be caused than the need to win the war and that would be Deuteronomy 20 10 to 12 if you looked at some passages there.

The other part is the most important part and sometimes it's it's known as non combat immunity or the idea of discrimination between combatants and non combatants, okay, so proportionality and non combatant immunity and that is.

Wars are to be waged by soldiers in as much then as it is feasible. You should as the as the war then is pursued. Adequate care must be taken to prevent harming non-combatants as much as possible and and trying to keep from destroying The land of those people because many of the people in many of those nations Afghanistan for instance many of the nearly 30 million people of Afghanistan are not in alignment at all with radical Islamists.

Okay with with the Taliban al-qaeda, etc. Those people themselves are finding themselves suffering. All you have to do is even watch some of the Television reports coming out right now and you see in the streets of the city the people Protesting only then to hear the gunshots going off and then they scream and they break up because the Taliban break them up.

But you still want to protect those people. That's why you don't turn it into a parking lot. With that in mind, so the idea then is the avoidance of evil and you go into battle with good faith in other words.

You want to make peace with that nation? So eventually that nation can be brought into Living in harmony with the the rest of the world if it if that could be achieved. So those are the principles for in battle is thinking then.

Proportional combat into immunity and. And in the military you often hear, you know, we were doing Middle East struggles and whatnot why didn't we just keep on going and and wipe out the government do everything just take over the nation and in and that was Debated in our Congress.

They were given here's the overall mission. We set out to do this and You know after 9-eleven Bush went to Congress and president Bush then said here's the mission. He took a lot of heat afterwards George W Bush for why didn't you keep going further and his go?

Well, that was beyond the mission and and then we were going beyond then proportionality, so there we we take this pretty literal as a nation now the whole thing of In and I have like you can go on on the internet right now I have a library full of books though that by many people is just war theory even feasible in a nuclear age.

Number war can just war theory the hottest debate going on today is can just war theory. Be practiced in an age of terrorism. Because the word terrorism itself tells you what terrorism is about it isn't about combatants fighting combatants.

It is it's based on strike terror into the populace. Okay, you win by fear you frightening people in the submission and the result of that then if it violates everything about Theory, but should we if we?

Deal with with terrorism. Can we practice? Just war theory principles, and I believe we can. Then there's the whole issue. Can we use nuclear weapons. And is that does that fit the criteria of just war theory?

I think on the large scale probably not however I think there there can be tactical nuclear weapons rather than some of the. The large-scale nuclear weapons, but just war theory. You know we went from having Russian United States, I think at one point the United States have just under or just over 30 ,000 nuclear weapons.

Russia had around 29 ,000 seven I mean Not yet 29 ,000 right now we have about 46 since 2016. I think we have about 4 ,600. Russia has about 4 ,500 and there are right now nine nations that have nuclear weapons and.

And so you know that raises a whole nother discussion, but okay.

Self-Defense, Government, and the Use of Force

Absolutely well before we bring Matt in and start again some questions. I think this is gonna be the best time for me to give a word from our sponsors because We may not get you a good chance other times so We're this show is put is a host or supported by my pillow if you guys want to go and get.

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