Just War Theory and Can Christians Defend Themselves?

Was Andrew the one that helped you get the podcast back up? Yeah, he did get the podcast.

He didn't help me. He didn't don't don't you think you owe him a dinner for that? Welcome to apologetics live we're here to answer your questions and challenges about God and the

Bible meet your hosts from striving for eternity Ministries, Andrew Rappaport, dr. Anthony Silvestro and pastor

Justin Pierce We are live of politics live here to answer your questions every

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Bible. You don't believe us Come on in and give us that challenge now You heard that intro which means that well,

Justin, what do you think? That means that intro? Somebody owes you dinner. Yes. That must mean that Matt slick is gonna be with us tonight

Okay, we will have to make Matt and you know, I I'll have to let Matt explain that but I think he'll have a

He'll get some some boasting out of it. Now. Finally after nine years gonna say he finally got it in there

Yeah, this is gonna be it. So let me give you how this show came about tonight And this is this

I should say this is a ministry of striving fraternity you can go to striving for train org check out our resources if you want to have one of us come out to your church and do a

Seminar weekend seminar we come to churches and we go to smaller churches. I can't afford so don't think that just because you're a small church

You can't have us come out. No, that's exactly where we want to go We want to train up your people so that you can then take it from there and continue that training things like how to interpret the

Bible Apologetics Evangelism social justice is a big one these days We've been doing more of those

I think this past year and a half than any other So you could go to striving fraternity org check out there.

So Matt slick and I work from karma org we were discussing he was putting out a paper on karma at about can

Christians defend themselves and We were having a long discussion. We've had these discussions in least recent months quite a bit and We came up with the idea having kind of a panel discussion here and We have someone who

I will admit that I was nervous having him in But not as much as you are

Yes adjusted because this is one of my old seminary professors and you're now seminary professor

So you really have to be careful? He will be soon So you're gonna have classes with him.

Yes. So what I've decided to do just so you know, it's just not even speak I Know dr.

Burggraf and he wants you speaking in class That's good, this is a name that many of you won't know but he was my first choice in coming in as dr.

David Burggraf He's with Shepherd seminary and I'm gonna let him introduce more about himself but I knew him back at Calvary Baptist Theological Seminary when he was the

Dean there and So he was the first choice to have in as glad that we had him in his Dissertation was in the issue of just war when

I took a biblical ethics class with him, by the way, Justin Just so you know any class with him is great, but you need to take a history class with him

Because he's there the history is one of those things where you have people that just don't know how to teach history

Well, they don't make it come alive. It's just dates and people's names and it's boring Yeah, not so with him in fact

I actually had we I had him out of my church wants to do it we were doing a conference and He weaves through his systematic theology background with his history background

So much so that what ends up happening is you end up getting a history of theology because he goes in explains

Well, why did they argue this because this is what was going on? And so that he gives that background so well, so I ended up saying hey

Can you can you do a history of theology? And I think he actually the I think a semester or two after that There was a class in the seminary history of theology when

I was like, oh, that's great But he'll love having him I will admit at that conference

I just spoke of I was nervous because he was taking notes frantically and I thought like oh no This is like back in seminary.

He's taking With all the corrections everything I said wrong and you know how you preach and you're thinking things like that.

Yeah Yeah, I get done. I'm like, okay. What did I say wrong? He's like nothing. I said well you were taking notes He's like yeah,

I was taking notes You See that one person and you're thinking what

What I do wrong. I know I said something wrong just the way they're looking and you're just you almost lose focus especially when it's somebody that you really respect and that you really want to Understand what you're saying and and appreciate it.

So yeah, well, let's let's bring in someone that's known by many here Matt slick from Karma .org

I at least owe it to you to let you explain why I played that clip at the beginning and And and then let you get a little gloating in because you did get the reason is because you're you're you're an immature person who likes to rub victories in For years at a time and so those of you who are listening who know the story

Unfortunately, how it goes is this jerk right here Repeatedly, I have to admit it repeatedly outsmart me when it came to Buying lunches and dinners.

I was even out at his place once got up 20 minutes early to go buy the dinner And he'd already paid for it.

I mean just stuff like that and then we got story We got story years for nine years But then on your what your 100th show of this show

I Had I came on for one house here, that's right and I had sushi sushi delivered to your house

And so that's the only way I could get you. I had to be out of the state Had to surprise you

It's up like that. It finally works and I get a little bit of gloating on that so all right,

I Should say the other just I forgot to say the other person I wanted on was Phil Johnson He does have some old blogs that were very good on it on this subject

He just he said he couldn't make it tonight because he's got an elders meeting at Grace Community Church I told him to get his priorities straight, you know

But but let me welcome on for the first time dr. David burgh graph It is a distinct privilege for me.

I I probably know you the best here But it's a distinct privilege to have you on Let me for our audience if you could just introduce yourself a bit and and what you're up to lately because This is the first time

I think you and I have spoken to each other and probably would you say like? 15 20 years 15 20 years perhaps yeah, and I was amazed when we got on you

You look old so No, we call me back though back

I think I met you before you were in school and seminary and Had just a really good time together and even then

I met you at a conference in New Jersey I think I was speaking at the church their invite on a

Saturday or something there was a conference and We sat together over lunch or something and you just keep asking questions upon questions

But they were all good questions, and it's like fine There's a thinker in the room, and I enjoyed that it really did and we had

What I think it was Andrew yeah

But that continued all the way through so thank you for the kind introduction it was way way over the top

But I think I think we actually met probably in in I'm gonna say 90 or 91 yeah

Uh -huh yeah something yeah, I just come back from doctoral work about that time and And I think it was in freehold or one of those areas or something yet, and it's a memory

Yeah, yeah, and so yeah, I can visualize the church. It was a great opportunity

Yeah, we've been friends and when Justin mentioned. Hey. He knows Andrew is like all my

No Here a month later we are and so I want to thank

Justin for that opportunity as well Well, absolutely. I'm just I'm really am thrilled

Personally, I mean just you know I've been enjoying myself the the seminary I pulled up the website, and I'm gonna try to get over here for everybody to be able to go see it the seminary is just it's

Excellent the the pastors the teachers everyone is excellent, and I'm really Yeah, thank you the the seminary is about 18 years old and actually one of the best -kept secrets

Going on in it the reason is it it actually is a seminary in a church for the church

Was colonial Baptist Church in Cary, North Carolina now. It's in December we changed the name to the

Shepherd's Church mainly because we're trying to do overseas work and Always having to explain colonial colonialism in Africa or in the

Middle East gets a little bit difficult and so We chose the name the

Shepherd's Church because of the we are also we have a missions We're sort of our own missions board with the

Shepherds International, but the seminary As I said is here this year.

We talked about 200 students that were primarily Engaged in the

Master of Divinity Master of Arts doctoral degrees and we were just in a feature article in one of the magazines for ATS the

Association of Theological Seminaries because of the 270 seminaries right now seven of them are

Growing by double digits in the last five years where most of them are either staying

Stable or decreasing and we grew 86 % in the last five years So that's been pretty exciting to be a part of that Folks give your background because I know some folks might be instantly even in what your undergraduate

Degrees were in as well as your theological degrees Well, I did not know about a born -again

Christian a Bible believer until I was 22 years old I had grown up in Minnesota and And my parents had been in a

Catholic background and so that's what I was raised through parochial schools After high school,

I went into the service. That's when Vietnam War was going strong. So I Enlisted and served in the

Army Reserves and active duty for six years got out and Went to the

University of Minnesota and graduated as a chemical engineer in biomedical nuclear engineering and was going to go to medical school

But my wife and I both my parents got saved and that was almost by accident.

We became believers shortly thereafter and then I Ended up feeling called to the ministry.

And so we started seminary in Minnesota. That's our home state and Did a master divinity went on to do a master of theology pastored for 10 years church plant and then pastored the church grew in Philadelphia area actually was

Hershey, Pennsylvania area for 10 years and then I Pastored back in my home state of Minnesota for three

I was invited to come back to the seminary and teach during that time I was working on a doctor of ministry degree went on to do my

PhD at Dallas Seminary graduated in theological studies and Went to teach it went teach as a full -time professor and chairman of department at Calvary Baptist Seminary and became the

Dean president and was there for 17 years and Then for three years.

I was asked my board at Clearwater Christian College did that and while it was there I was invited as a speaker here at the

Colonial Baptist Church pastor Steven Davey and We struck up a wonderful friendship

That he was starting or leading his church to start a seminary they did

And he was bringing together professors many of them who were had been friends of mine for 30 years or so Coming out of like the

Masters Seminary Dallas Seminary as a seminary. We actually Birthed a seminary that came out of the womb as an adult

We brought professors who had over 200 to 300 years worth of combined experience teaching and 200 years worth of pastoral experience and so on our first blush through where most

ATS seminaries get you know go through a process to get accredited our first Blush we were fully accredited by ATS For the full first seven years before we had to go through review

So the program has just taken off and we're all about church planting We set out in 2016 to do 20 churches by 2020 and we've done that we're now trying to plant 25 more by 25 2025 so we plant churches and we're doing

Revitalization all over the country right now of churches, and we have extensions in Wyoming, Texas We're all

South Carolina Florida now, Georgia, so we're

Launching and we do sites in churches to that we call clusters, so there's some pretty exciting things

We're doing some innovative things in seminary training right now That's neat.

I don't know if you saw in the private chat, but Matt says he wants to do his doctor of ministries So we'll have to hook you two up Absolutely Launched it last year having a wonderful program.

We've got some firsts with ATS And it's exciting and we we're we have a national conference now.

That's You'd know the speakers many of them they range from this year Al Mohler Irwin Lutzer to you know, the

Kosti in Alexander struck so you got to have a Jersey boy in there Bruce where yeah, you name it.

So we have about 40 speakers. So let's get into the topic tonight If you see on your screen, you can see it's it's

Shepherds 360 org is the URL mentioned that just for those who are watching who are listening on the podcast later.

So This has been a big issue Lately is the whole question of Ken Christians defend themselves.

How far can they go? What what justifies? And what can we do as far as?

Self -defense and and then the issue of just really just war theory now you'd

Dr. Burgroth you you're that was your dissertation and I've sat in class with you going through this and Just for the audience to understand in an ethics classes you were going through Explaining just war theory and you're saying you kept going.

Well, I can't go into more detail I can't go into more detail and my mind was being blown with the different things

I'm like, I've never even thought of that. I never thought of that You know is it there was so much to it and I know

Matt when Matt and I were talking he was like, you know I really want to get someone that is that knows this stuff. Well, there's someone we can ask questions to and things like that We want to spend and I know we got some people backstage

We want to spend the first part of the hour or so just first giving you an opportunity to kind of open up What just war theory is for a while?

Explaining it the whole idea of self -defense and then kind of just allow us to pepper you with questions

Essentially kind of like a classroom So if you could give us an overview

What is just war theory? What what do we see as biblical principles when it comes to self -defense?

Sure Thank you. I think we have to do in in that is a perhaps for a moment

Talk just war theory and keep it on a national level where a nation can defend itself

And then bring it back into individual self -defense And so if you can break it into two categories that might help you quite a bit

I Got interested real quickly just a little bit in this because I was doing my doctoral work in the area of theology and probably one of the most

Important figures in what we would call the Western Church in understanding theology was

Augustine so I was doing my work in the area of patristics and And it was interesting because as I was studying

The concept of or dealing with Augustine. I wanted to deal with How how theologians do theology and so during that doctoral work?

I was doing a lot of work it on that topic the theological methodology

Beginning with the Bible its hermeneutics its interpretation And then how do we make these profound statements that we do as theologians and as pastors and people go

How'd you get that? and so I wanted to figure out how do how we do that and Augustine is the ideal model because more he has done more research and and writing than other and there are more libraries dedicated to him

Next to the Lord of any other man who's lived And so I was studying him

But something in the process is he actually was the first Christian to write on a theory of War and when you study it he actually didn't he just he laid out the principles

That deal with can a Christian go to war prior to him there was a

Lot of ambivalence about Christians being involved even in the military And and is it proper for a

Christian to be in the military and can Christians kill especially when Jesus said?

You know in the Sermon on the Mount turn your cheek Which is probably one of the most misunderstood passages of Scripture to begin with When it comes to this whole discussion of war and killing but What just war theory is is within?

the idea of Christianity is there a way to discern whether a war is actually proper

Is it something can Christians go to war? is war then something that God would

As it were permit and then so if we if that is possible then

What would be the criteria for which then to say okay these criteria are met therefore

We can engage in a war We can commit ourselves and our troops are our sons and our daughters now into this war and and as they sacrifice for their nation is it even proper or is it something we're gonna have to answer to God for because We stumbled into it once we engage in a war and we've met those criteria

Then how do we conduct war so the two categories of just war in the words the terms?

JWT just war theory mean the justification for going to war and the justification for killing in war and And then how do we wage the war and so there are several criteria for then what's called juice in bellow and and that is the justice for going to war and then

Juice odd Bellum, excuse me, and then juice in Bellum is the idea of Justice in war how we should act.

So those are two categories. We can go into those deeper. We can talk about the criteria But it's important and the

United States of America has used just war theory as its guiding principles

Most Christians down through history have especially once we hit the

Reformation thereafter Luther Calvin Zwingli And in great theologians thereafter and pastors after that as and then the for instance in The great divines who will use then confessions and others throughout the church and and and canonists and jurists and Today in our country you say in the

United States Senators congressmen any from Christian backgrounds are going to appeal to just war theory

And Lincoln did others did when we went to war right after 9 -11 coming up on its 20th anniversary when we went into Afghanistan then or the

Middle East and then as we went to war again with Iraq Every time on the floor of Congress They're weighing out the principles and they're talking in the categories of just war theory and and actually then it was

Augustin picking up some early seed thoughts from Aristotle already on how the

Greeks then the Romans used criteria for going to war Is this something we should engage in is it worth it?

Augustin then came on the scene because he was asked by Count General Boniface.

He was writing in response to attacks against Christians that your

God of the Old Testament is a killing God versus Jesus so there's two gods and so he wrote to Faustus a

Manichaean and he spelled out then the principles for war and he laid them the groundwork the thinking the theology

That later got structured into what we call just war theory And and so that's how we got to what has become then part of the

Christian Church the last 1 ,500 years so could you explain explain what just war theory is and Then, you know, let's dig into a little bit of how you know our day and age this is becoming popular, right?

Mm -hmm. There's a lot of people Yes, specifically like you look in Canada is

You know arresting pastors freeing people that are rapists and murderers arresting pastors and then chaining up their churches so that they can't go in and that that really became a big topic here on on This show even we had lots of none.

What should the church do? Cut the fence down and go in anyway

Do we do is as James Coates did by just going off -site and places like that?

So could you explain just war theory then explain, you know, what your view is on how we should handle things in our with our own country

Yeah, the I think you know To your to your intro right there

Andrew what's really important is there's a host of questions that you're you're raising there and and And it raises the question, you know

Well a couple of things and if I can back up a little in just war theory and just sort of lay the

Lay out the map and then we'll start Moving some things around on it or or if we could it let's lay out the the chessboard and then start putting the pieces in There really are three and I heard it mentioned already here there are there are three categories that people find themselves in when it starts when we get down to the idea of What are we do in our society?

one is the area of activism which an activist holds that I'll support my government and Whatever they say because obviously they know what's going on.

And here I am I I don't I'm not one who has access to the information they do and they have all these great

Organizations we have, you know, whether it's our CIA CIA FBI whoever so they they have the channels in of intelligence and and and means to gain then the

From the intelligence community I don't therefore I have to completely trust them if they say we need to go to war then my job is just to stand up and salute and say yes, sir and Obey it in order to conduct the mission as they do that.

And so we just acquiesce to government that whole thing is called in For lack of a better term.

It's known as activism There are of course Objections to that because no matter what country you're in then if you believe that you believe your government's always, right

You know, so you got two opposing forces on who's right and who's doing the right thing and then it's then you just become a nationalist

In that sense there's no control because even if you're in an evil government you fall in line with evil leaders

Just then on the other side you've got Pacifists who believe all wars are wrong and we should not be involved and you have categories there of resistance

Etc conscientious objection and Which is a whole nother category

Somewhere in there in the middle you have to step aside and say, okay, let's bring some rational moral

Virtuous thinking to this the the most devastating thing that humanity can do and that is since the fall of man and Thereafter we've been killing each other and down through history

We've become become pretty good at it in the 20th century Saw it on a scale that became known as the

Great War in the World War I mean, you know you start looking at World War one and 39 million people were killed 30 million of those being civilians

Then we get to World War two only 20 some years later and 51 million people are killed in 34 million of those are civilians and that doesn't even include the genocides and since World War two

There's been over a hundred and fifty wars with over 17 to 20 million civilians killed so it just gets out of hand as it goes on so It was then through like Augusta and others we need to we need to somehow

Bring some sanity to what we're doing or or we'll just follow

Bad leadership we need to discuss this and and so with that in mind

Just war theory then is the concept as I said, there's two categories to it

Let's talk first of all juice odd Bellum, which is the idea the Justification for going to war now.

This is going to come up in self -defense too because the justification even for Defending yourself, but let's talk about Defending a nation or defending another nation a third party that you see is being

Bullied picked on or is going to be lose its national sovereignty. Can you come to their aid?

so with that in mind, there's if you there's about five criteria and if you wanted to you could look at for instance in the

ESV by one of the handiest is to take the ESV study Bible go to the back under ethics look up war and you'll

See about eight criteria there for just war theory as as they've spelled it out there

But let me give you real quickly the criteria that are most common for when can you go to war?

Number one there has to be a just cause in other words a just cause maybe as I said to intervene for an innocent third party third country or to punish an evil aggressor to stop evil or To defend your own nation from either

Aggression or overthrow so it's a just cause and in the idea then it with that in mind is

Going then for just cause you want if you want to I could give you scripture verses But the easiest one is just Revelation 19 11 when the

Son of Man comes back when Jesus comes at the second coming We see him return and he's coming to wage war and so but there's a just cause

Number two then is in going to war is right Authority with that in mind

Has a war been declared By proper authorities just wars are not private revolutions a just war

Is not someone who says There are several of us in the state of Michigan, Oregon, etc

And we're going to go on a mass shooting of governmental officials because we feel they're evil

No, right authority Has the in our country? It's the

US Congress has to wage war Okay, and so with that in mind, there's vigorous debate on Whether or not we should commit forces to this war the money the resources, etc

And sends our send our sons and daughters into battle for us So it has to be one a just cause number two right

Authority number three Just intention or the idea would be

You know, what are we going to war for in somebody sometimes they call this comparative justice or right intention and so the purpose of going to war then is to justice and righteousness the with the idea a realizable goal of peace and Ultimately, it's not to their their just war does not permit you to go in with the idea of conquest of Taking over land we will expand

And we can go imperialistically and we can conquer and we will expand then

Our country in other words, we'll take over the sovereignty of another for our benefit.

That's not at all It's not territorial conquest. It's not even revenge as much as back in when after 9 -11 well, we need let's just turn that whole country, you know into a parking lot

You can't do that a dirt parking lot at that You can't go in and just decide we're gonna nuke a nation because look what they did to 3 ,000 of our people

In the trade centers actually two thousand nine hundred and seventy seven of them died So if we go in with that in mind, you know, you can't just it's got to be a goal of peace

Okay, and then the fourth criteria is proportionality and that idea then is

Are the potential gains worth the possible costs and sacrifices of human lives finances, etc, and so You're not going to go for a

Pyrrhic victory Pyrrhic went in lost all of his Navy, but he won the war, you know in ancient

Greece. And so the idea is When you're left with nothing, what was that about?

So proportionality you weigh the costs you weigh the benefits And so this just cause right authority right intention

Proportionality and then lastly war is a last resort and with that in mind you use every negotiable and we do nonviolent means of persuasion

To be to attempt whether it's blockades, whatever it is And you give it a reasonable

Amount of time and you're going with the right spirit. It can't be vengeance can't be hatred

It has to be with the idea of gaining peace and protection

Justice, etc. So those are the criteria for going to war in a just war category

Okay Does that make sense? Absolutely, and you can see there

Justin was quickly or Chris was quickly taking notes here and he's put them all out there I'm impressed.

That's We have students in the in the audience here being good

Expecting to do that, but he just found actually I was pulling from the the legal

Us legal comm it actually it's not the same the same exact argument that you're making

What I found amazing about the argument and about the discussion is both of those

Both the legal legal argument from US legal comm and what you just said is based on a

Christian worldview. Yes It's an atheistic You know anti -god Because there is no reason for You to be just in a worldview of chaos

There's no reason for you to be just in a world of us as I should dominate based on My ability to come and take control, you know

The survival of the fittest does not allow for a just war theory. So this has to be founded upon a

Christian worldview There's a there and Justin you raised some really good questions We that there's the second part of this then that is known as as we talk about it is juice in Bellum and there's actually two criteria that can break down into a couple of other ones

But one is once you engage in a war the the criteria when talking about juice in bellow

Justice in battle the two major criteria and and I know others will say well, there's actually four

But let me just explain the two and they make sense then how you get to four one is simply the word Proportionality.

Yep. In other words proportionality in the use of force. Okay, the idea then is

The You go in Proportionate then to the task or the mission at hand for it with that in mind then

In World War two we would do that with when we went to war with Japan for instance

We we didn't just bomb every island We just went to the key strategic ones in that strategy was let you know wither on the vine

In other words, why kill unnecessarily? It's just gonna burn out

So there's proportionality In other words no greater destruction should be caused than the need to win the war and that would be

Deuteronomy 20 10 to 12 if you looked at some passages there The other part is the most important part and sometimes it's it's known as non -combat

Immunity or the idea of discrimination between combatants and non combatants.

Okay so Proportionality and non -combatant immunity and that is

Wars are to be waged by soldiers in as much then as it is feasible

You should as the as the war then is pursued

Adequate care must be taken to prevent harming non -combatants as much as possible and and trying to keep from destroying the land of those people

Because many of the people in many of those nations Afghanistan for instance many of the nearly 30 million people of Afghanistan are not in alignment at all with radical

Islamists Okay with with the Taliban al -qaeda, etc

Those people themselves are finding themselves suffering all you have to do is even watch some of the

Television reports coming out right now and you see in the streets of the city the people

Protesting only then to hear the gunshots going off and then they scream and they break up because the

Taliban break them up But you still want to protect those people. That's why you don't turn it into a parking lot

With that in mind so the idea then is the avoidance of evil and you go into battle with good faith in other words

You want to make peace with that nation? So eventually that nation can be brought into Living in harmony with the the rest of the world of it if that could be achieved

So those are the principles for in battle is thinking then

Proportional combat into immunity and And in the military often here, you know, we were doing

Middle East struggles and whatnot why didn't we just keep on going and and wipe out the government do everything just take over the nation and in and that was

Debated in our Congress. They were given here's the overall mission. We set out to do this and You know after 9 -eleven

Bush went to Congress and president Bush then said here's the mission He took a lot of heat afterwards

George W Bush for why didn't you keep going further and his go? Well, that was beyond the mission and and then we were going beyond then proportionality, so there we we take this pretty literal as a nation now the whole thing of In and I have like you can go on on the internet right now

I have a library full of books though that by many people is just war theory even feasible in a nuclear age

Number war can just war theory the hottest debate going on today is can just war theory

Be practiced in an age of terrorism Because the word terrorism itself tells you what terrorism is about it isn't about combatants fighting combatants

Is it's based on strike terror into the populace

Okay, you win by fear you frightening people in the submission and the result of that then if it violates everything about Theory, but should we if we?

deal with with terrorism Can we practice? Just war theory principles, and I believe we can

Then there's the whole issue Can we use nuclear weapons And is that does that fit the criteria of just war theory?

I think on the large scale probably not however I think there there can be tactical nuclear weapons rather than some of the

The large -scale nuclear weapons, but just war theory. You know we went from having

Russian United States I think at one point the United States had just under or just over 30 ,000 nuclear weapons

Russia had around 29 ,000 729 ,000 right now we have about 46 since 2016

I think we have about 4 ,600 Russia has about 4 ,500 and there are right now nine nations that have nuclear weapons and And so you know that raises a whole nother discussion, but okay

Absolutely Before we bring Matt in and start again some questions

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So we thank them and with that I'm gonna bring everyone back in So all right, you had and I'm gonna put this up for folks two articles that you have

One is a karma org and if you just go to karma org and search the search should a

Christian go to war That's an article. I think it was back in 2008 that you wrote that one but the article that you and I were

Recently discussing and you've been going back and forth quite a bit on is this other one and good again

Go to karma org and just do a search on do Christians have the right of physical self -defense

It's a article that was put out at sometime last month you put that out and very lengthy old and New Testament arguments

So real quick Matt, let me give you a chance to do you want to respond with you know? Because you haven't come on to the show since you've written that argument

Do you want to go into any detail what your views were with that? We could do is engage with dr.

Berger F on some questions Sure. The reason I wrote it is because we have as karma the intergalactic

Empire that karma is We have some missionaries in Africa. Well, you got it, you know, I tell people is the world

This is the intergalactic headquarters right here and they're impressed We have missionaries in Africa Malawi we have them in Nigeria Nigeria's been there a lot of persecution

So what they're doing is they're taking karma articles of different topics have been going around for months and months years

Apparently and because my articles are quick. I'd say quick and slick. They're succinct you get right to the point and Having Bible studies and teaching pastors and then this issue came up of can we defend ourselves because Christians are being murdered

There and so I said, okay. Let me do some research and so I started researching it even more and I knew that the article would be used by many people in Africa to Justify whatever the article justifies

So I'd take it very very seriously very carefully so A long story short.

I have six a summary of a summary We pray for and love our persecutors.

We seek peace with them. We have the right of verbal self -defense We have the right of legal self -defense.

We have the right to flee persecution and we also have the right but not the obligation but the right of physical force if necessary in order to protect ourselves and or others and And What I analogy

I kind of use is you're at your house And because this is not a national thing. This is you know personal

What do you do because like in Nigeria then the nation is not protecting the Christians the I don't call them radical

Muslims They are true Muslims to go in and kill and that's what true Islam teaches out of the Hadith out of the

Quran So the radical ones are the ones were peaceful because the Quran teaches the surah 9 teaches killing going out and seeking people destroying

Taking over the world etc, etc. At any rate So, what do they do? Can they use a knife to defend themselves a gun to defend themselves?

can they you know different levels of questions and this is why I had to write that and answer different kinds of questions and Hopefully I did a good job.

So That's what that's the basic we can go in particular Conclusions and stuff.

I went in the Old Testament. I went into where Jesus has by a sword Jesus drove the people out of the temple.

He made a weapon to do that Defend God If God's honor what and then what kind of weapons are okay for Christians?

What do you do when a government fails to protect because one of the obligations of the government is to protect its citizens

So what if it fails to do that, then how far do we go? These are not easy topics.

You don't just solve them In one paragraph you just don't do that, but you can give general principles and that's what

I did there and then you know issues of Aggression against an impending attack, you know, it's

I use an analogy is And I have a friend who's Retired Border Patrol and so he knows a lot about the laws what you can and can't do and it was we had a good

Discussion he gave me some good insights And I agree with what he was saying So if you're in your home and someone's outside of your home yelling on the sidewalk that they're gonna come into your home

And they're gonna kill you and you have your I have an ak -47 you have your weapon and So you can't shoot him.

You're just threatening. You're just saying stuff what if he has a gun and It's it's pointed down at the ground and he's yelling.

He's gonna kill you you still can't shoot what if he raises the weapon and points it at your house and It's gonna fire.

Can you shoot him? Then the answer is yes, because it's a Imminent threat where it's going to happen and you have that right then of self -defense

Well, then the question then becomes what do you do if you see him walking across the street with a gun pointed at you

Coming at you. Can you defend your house there by preemptively? Striking now that you know, that's not so easy to answer

What do you do if there's 50 people coming down a road and you know They're coming at you to destroy you and you can in a narrow pass take them out

Do you take them out or do you flee these are the all kinds of variables and questions and these are the kinds of questions that The people on the average

Christian in Nigeria and Africa and some parts of the other parts of the world are facing what can they do what can they not do and Those are the kind of question maybe could talk about some particulars

I don't know, but I came up with some conclusions and I don't know if my conclusions are all right But I did the best

I could to answer them according to Scripture and don't claim I got it perfect But I certainly tried to make it biblical

Well, let's let's try to go through some of those right here and and see if you know what we can come up with So, you know, this is a point where I really would like to have where we can kind of just do kind of panel discussion

I know we have peel in the background, but just They've asked you some questions on some of this stuff

Matt I know you've had a bunch of questions. You just raised some so Let me just let the two you

I'm gonna actually just let the two you kind of engage a bit and I'm gonna put Justin And I in the background And just you know,

Matt, you can you guys go back and forth a bit. Sure Well, let me just jump in if I come home and we can just use this and keep going, but if I come home and Someone is in the process of attacking my wife.

She's across the room. I can't reach her before he's gonna kill her And I have my gun on me boom and I shoot him.

That's just because it's protecting of someone else, right? Correct. It is.

All right. Yeah, and a couple of things you but I Concur with as you're talking and I haven't had an opportunity to read your article, but you're exactly right

And the the an Old Testament passage and I know we can you know You know, there's things in the kingdom, etc

You know Old Testament kingdom, however, there are principles laid out there

Exodus 22 1 through 3 you probably use that in your argument of and that talks about and Right after you know the in Exodus 20

Jesus I'm sorry, God gave to the nation of Israel the Ten Commandments Commandment number six thou shalt not murder

Okay, and the term that the word that's used there in Hebrew for murder is rate rate soft and it has the idea then of The unlawful taking of another person's life and unlawful, you know

We were just talking about some of that and that's that's how it ends up murder Never is rate saw ever used for in war that that Hebrew word is never used in war or defending

And so a lot of people say what the Bible says thou shalt not kill Wait a minute.

It says thou shalt not murder. Okay, and there is justifiable killing and you hit exactly on that Even to the point where you said the use of weapons

Luke 22, there's 36 through 38 where he's talking about Sell what you have if you don't have by the sword with the intention of what by two if you can and and Jesus Apostles Apparently carried swords with them

We know that Peter had one and somebody was short of an ear for a little while, you know, so so they can and The use of weapons to stop someone like you said in that case breaking into the home

That is exactly the biblical illustration in Exodus 22 and and that idea that they're breaking into your home

The interesting thing that is this it says if they're breaking into your home at night and you kill them

Nothing will be however during the daytime and that's at that point Then the idea is you can stop them before harm, but how if they if they have

You know it you in other words biblically We also see in Proverbs where if there's somebody harming somebody else

You have to come biblically to that person's aid and defend and even take their life if necessary Lost a microphone there.

I put myself on mute. Sorry. I discovered just off what you're saying I discovered that there's more scriptures

That talk about defending others than yourself Yeah, that's that's what I discovered and so you have more of an obligation to step in to help others

No, yeah, John Piper's put out an excellent article You remember that one where said you you know, he would not take somebody else's life and Augustine felt that way, too

I Agree with much of what John Piper said I know

Wayne Grudem in his article in his politics book on ethics as In his

Christian ethics as well as his politics. He says I agree with John Piper to a degree However, no, he says he

I think he didn't go Complete that you need to defend. Yeah. Yeah, someone came in.

I may it never happened I don't ever want it to happen ever ever but because of what I do for a living I have to carry a gun

Because I've had death threats I've been swatted followed in cars Satanist they're gonna kill us

You know it all kinds of stuff But if I came home and I've thought this through it's and you know

I've done martial arts so I can get to a person and stop him that's different But if I can't get to that person in time or whatever is necessary I had to I had to shoot in my mind here sitting here

Yeah, I would what I really went you never know what you can do till you're there, right? But I think it's perfectly defensible.

Yes now Biblically, it is. Yes. Now. Let's say I come home.

I'm driving in the driveway. I hear screams coming out of a neighbor's house and the doors open and I see a woman

Running out and she's bloodied and she trips and falls and this guy has got a bat over her and I just I'm out of The car by then and I see don't stop but he hits her once and he's going again.

Boom. I gotta shoot him. Okay that's justifiable because it's an imminent threat of Physical probable possible physical death and you're you've warned and you stop you stop the threat that's proportional

Because it's a death threat there. So there you go. All right, right Now what if you you know, you got the gun and you're holding it and the guy looks at you

He stops beating his wife and he comes at you. Then. What do you do if you can flee you flee?

But if you can't flee within reason and there's another thing your wife is sitting there with you

You can't flee because you'll endanger her. So you tell him to stop stop. Stop. He doesn't you know, you know all these variables

Okay. Well, what do you do? as a Christian in Nigeria, for example now we've got the

Muslims and And Anyway Islam is a world -class

Satanic evil religion and I've debated it many times. I studied it back on 9 -eleven.

I'll be on a BN sat TV hosting On on Islam with you some people speakers could be fun.

Anyway, so In that country, they are not allowed to have weapons, right?

They're not allowed to have guns And So but the

Muslims as an example have guns and they come in now. Here's a question can you then go find guns anyway to have a proportional defense and My answer is yes personally because Jesus says

Luke 22 36 by a sword right which is a weapon of it's a lethal weapon at that time and Because the government's failing to do its job its obligation you then have to take care of your own as well as as others

So that what do you think of that? Well, your problem is going to be the government isn't is never going to in a in a in a

Muslim country like that we'll probably still find reason from you have with Advising the

Christians there. They're in a lose -lose situation, right? They are they are and And That is one of the great

Injustices that we see going on in our world right now because even if they Because the government in many of those countries themselves are in violation of Romans 13

The government is to protect its citizenry and and and verses 1 to 4

God mandates and God even allows those governments the the use of the sword

Meaning the weaponry to defend its citizens They have let down the protection of their citizenry and when the citizens then take it upon themselves

Because of the government's failure to even think rationally as a government

Mainly because of their religious ideologies as well that have become Perverted on the part of the governmental leaders.

The people are in some very very precarious Situations even before they defend themselves

And here's another factor Because this is never like this is never black and white.

No in the Islam the I've talked to many people raised in Muslim countries and They tell me across the board that Muslims respect force and They believe that if you seek a truce with them and I could give you the history and why what happened

But it doesn't matter if you seek a truce with them. It's because you're weak and so it emboldens them to go attack

Well, you know, that's part of the Islamic culture. It actually is it's what's taught in Islam.

Yeah now If you say well, let's just make peace with them by knowing that now you're encouraging them

Unintentionally to attack you So the way to defend yourself and stop is to get weapons and be aggressive to the point of you need to stop

It sounds weird. But in that culture that situation it seems to make sense. Well the whole idea of deterrent there

And that is one of the reason, you know carrying the weapon carrying the weapon the rifle the ak -47 in front

Etc knowing that at any time I will use it if I have to I'm not advocating it here.

I'm saying in those countries that you know the the problem you're you're dealing with with the

Christians in Nigeria the tragedy that they're facing is one of is is actually two things one

We are told by Christ. We will face persecution Okay, so so what can what and we almost should expect that we may die

Unjustly for persecution at the same time you've got evil

Bullying for lack of a better term or others who want to take their life which demands self -defense

So they're there as Christians. They have to debate the two is this Persecution or is this just hatred?

Do you know what I mean? of my nation in my ideal my nation's You know

That brings up another issue. We Christians are allowed to defend but we're not allowed to take vengeance

Exactly. Exactly. Yes Yeah, and so as it and and so if this has happened to me to me because of my testimony for Christ as Distinguished it's take my family or whatever.

So, you know, there's that conundrum that the modern world lives in Peter and in 2nd

Peter 2 12 where he talks about unbelievers will act like wild animals and he says that and creatures they act in instinct and he tells them then that It is morally right then to Defend yourself just the way

David defended himself from an animal when he was attacked by it He killed it Peter's making an analogy that you can defend yourself or it carries there's a syllogism a equals

B B equals C a equals C, but it's it's a it's a really tough line for these folks and That is it is and if they practice the biblical principles, they're still gonna find themselves out in the at odds with the government there yeah, and and and I well, that brings up another issue because Written an article well back on January 15th.

The Christians duty to obey and disobey government There's actually an obligation to disobey

Yeah, we don't disobey because you don't like them now, here's a question, okay, so let's bring this up because I Don't know about you how you are about the

Kovat. I'm doing extensive research on Kovat Vaccines and everything. I'm doing a lot of research.

It's coming up on the radio show, etc, etc. At any rate Now my opinion is from what

I've seen of it what I've just studied I don't trust the vaccine just my opinion and if someone's had it

I'm not knocking you I'm just saying this is just me. I don't trust it and I don't want to take it

Now what if the government says we want you were mandating as Biden is now doing it today. He's Mandating that we take it now as they're forcing essentially an experimental drug on us now

Does this fall under the right of self -defense? To say no, how about that?

when they mandated they can like he said I have if you As you mentioned today, you know he said

I have the right as a president United States to say if you are involved in a government and you work for the

Government in some type of underneath the executive range. I can tell you what you have to do

I think before I would react offensively in that sense of violently

Retail the idea would be you may have to by by holding to a view

I'm not going to listen to you biblically. You would face the consequences like Max 529 etc.

Knowing that hey if I do this, I'm gonna I'm gonna lose my job if I work for the government

Do you know what I'm right? What do you do? I Think I think one of the things that would be brilliant to do

I mean because we the part of this in this point is At least in America is we do have certain laws that allow us a right to do certain things like a lawsuit

Right, I think it'd be amazing to see 80 million people in a class -action lawsuit against Biden But but we had we have this recourse and you know recently

You know I mentioned this on on my rap report podcast was the fact that you look at what

John MacArthur did at Grace Community Church When he realized he they felt that the the church was being targeted.

They didn't rebel outwardly They said okay there are means that are legal this is still fitting within Romans 13

I actually would argue it was the government that was breaking the law and there they had an obligation

To go to court and bring this up in court and say we were challenging this and I think that's the right now

I would say that would be the route to go with with your question, right? Well, I have in my list. I said

I said earlier It's pray for the persecutors that number to seek peace with them three verbal defense for legal self -defense

Five fleet flee if you have to and then six use physical force if you have to do that One thing you got to notice too is that when you had?

That what was going on in Canada? The first reaction that you saw so many people saying was let's go bust everything down.

Let's go fight Let's go to war and as Andrew and I pointed out multiple times That's not our first reaction.

In fact as we use all the just war theory, that's the last resort The physical fighting is the last resort

Based on those criterion what we want to do is use the legal means that are afforded to us and as Dave just said

When we decide to stand up as Peter did and say you do what you got to do

But I'm going to do this for the glory of God, right? you also take the consequence whatever the consequent is, but if we're stepping from the area of personal defense against bad people to defense against a governmental force and Those things play a little different.

So we have to recognize Okay. So what about this? I tell people You know

Ephesians 6 12 we wrestled not against flesh and blood powers and principality. Okay Assume this and then put it in place which explains why the zombie crats are trying to develop a thug occur

See and I could get that and one of the things that they want to do is Love the terms you come up with It's very

Pauline When my spiritual tourists hasn't kicked in right now, so I'm trying to be even politer

I want to you know implications. It's tough difficult to pray for the president and by Biden and Pelosi and AOC and Harris and half of the other

Wonderful people. Yes. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you know, I say Lord if they're not elect you know

Imprecatorily any rate I believe there's a place to stand up and resist Anyway, it's another topic.

Okay. Now. I've totally forgot what I was gonna say. It was really important It was gonna be great and it's gone though What was

I talking about? Well, we were we were discussing you were originally starting with the vaccines and and so let me let me take with what you said

I mean, so let me take what Matt started with and go a little further So say it's not just losing your jobs

They're coming house to houses as actually they are doing in someone to do No, not that I want to in New Jersey They are going house to house and seeing who is

Vaccinated they came by once one of the people in our church came by once just to see have you been vaccinated?

Do you need a vaccine? We're coming to those who might be homebound the second time they were coming through to find out who was vaccinated or not

So now if they come to the house and they start demanding we are going to vaccinate you

You you were you know, they're there with the police they're gonna hold you down and vaccinate you self -defense

Then is there an opportunity for self -defense or not? Yes, I Believe so. I would use what

I could just physically stop them until they had to absolutely force me. I believe we won't honestly this may be a

Dress rehearsal for something more significant in the next decade

But I I don't think this particular virus is going to come to that point

But this is going to start setting up precedence and laws Because what's happening right now?

Andrew to your point. This is going to end up in court is violation of people's rights and then and so The first government employees that start getting fired are going to go and bring lawsuits

And so this is gonna this is gonna get there out of this are going to come laws

That next time are gonna be carried further, you know, and they're though and so people

Yeah, it won't be about the 80 million this time, but something significant is going to come

Yeah We could talk off here There's there's something called immunity debt and I've discovered this researching so you have a certain amount of germs that the population gets exposed to in a year and the more you

Isolate and mask the less germs you have the less immunity strength you develop

So that after a few years when something comes in that really wouldn't have been a big deal now It wipes everybody out, you know just out then they shut down the economy and they they go even further

To demand and this is the cycle that's going to happen right now personally because of this

I believe all I remember Ephesians 612. I believe ultimately that this is a demonic movement to suppress the gospel

Ultimately, that's what I believe and so we I believe that we Christians have the obligation to strongly resist the government strongly resist these mandates to not riot but to petition to gather

To protest to To do so, I think we should all mail a mask

To the White House every Christian in the country with a note. Leave me alone or my body my choice nail it to him and because we because Whoa pre -tribulation rapturism you get out of everything early you get to go away that churches aren't teaching the pastors aren't teaching you

I know you guys do but the pastors aren't teaching what they need to be taught that Christians are becoming wussified and Apathetic and they're not being equipped for the work of ministry

They're being given baby baby talks and diaper Indian theology It's another Matt slick ism.

You go to my slick shanary on car. I'm slick shanary. You have that I got a new one today Rant acoustical rant acoustical.

It's someone we had some in the radio today who said you want to debate me debate me on the radio on He would debate me on the

Trinity and I I said well, you know, what is it? Defending goes I don't know but it's wrong and I started how

I was laughing So he's a rant acoustical. He just rants against something. He doesn't even know what he's talking about So anyway,

I believe we Christians need to stand up and and if we don't we're gonna lose our rights

We're gonna lose the ability to preach that saving gospel Ultimately, this is a spiritual battle.

We need to think about it that way that diaper Indianism That's right, Chris and Chris. I owe him a big.

Thanks. He saved my rear a few years ago I have lost

I have lost a lot of faith in in me Oh, yeah,

I'm sesquicentillion, so it'd be great No my faith in large -scale

Christianity coming together and doing something significant has really sort of hit the skids when

I when we wussed out on abortion and that was something that we really had an opportunity and it was before us and we

Had we had the science we had the statistics Had the political platforms and we didn't do the legal things

We could have and why is that because the Christians are too comfortable Remote control this and microwave that and air conditioner this and that and they don't go out and have this weird suggestion

Jesus made Go out and make disciples of all nations. It's a suggestion. It's an idea in the whole bit.

We'll do it later Let someone else do it. This is a problem as a huge problem now So really, you know quickly here

Andrew and I we don't agree in a lot of stuff He has the right to be wrong. And so we don't agree on I'm on mill.

I think he's free mill. I'm biblical Baptist but not for salvation as a covenant.

I'm a consistent covenant list and I believe that the first one's taken. Yeah I'm Yeah, I could trust me

I could ask some tough question you said you said two words that don't mix Mentalist absolutely

You are wrong I could get in there and ask you guys.

You guys would have a good discussion. I'll ask you guys tough questions. Okay But the point is that and this is what's really good.

We all disagree on some things but what that's okay Johnny sure doesn't

We're all doing fine And actually this to what

I think about saying is, you know, I've debated Matt slick probably more than any other person that I know my wife

Well Your wife and I agree we both we both think you're wrong all the time

Count and yours is useless But the thing is that you and I have debated more topics.

I mean we've debated coming in theology versus dispensationalism gifts of tongues Pre -meal all male post mill

Chisholm. We've yeah, I'm sure the wicked first We've we've debated a lot of different things and the thing though is that we on the core issues we agree

There's a lot we disagree on we know where they and we don't shy away from who pays for dinner. I do

I Years of history on my side Because we get along and we can work together we have gone out preaching together done open -air together

We've done things together and that's the point and we have to have this cross Denominational essence of what the essentials are so they can rise up as Christians and fight the real enemy not each other

That's what has to happen That's what has to happen I'm gonna respond to Joanne.

She said is Justin pre to pre trip 100 % We we already have man we just you keep forgetting this

So We'll continue. Here's the thing I have an idea that I think you know,

I've thought about I've talked about it in a radio. What if We have 26 letters in the alphabet 31 days and 30 days in a month

What if it excludes Sundays? What if we? Everybody like say, you know next year

September 1st, whatever Everybody in America whose name starts last name starts with the letter a was to get a sign

We have an organization and you go to the capital or you know of your state If you're too far away, then you go to a town hall, whatever with signs and everybody is there for a few hours

Everybody all across the United States on the same day and the next day

They'll let people the letter B go out there. Of course, you can mix of course and you do this for three weeks and we have we have an organization a national organization where you join and You pay money to get into five ten dollars a month so that you can bring lawsuits

Against people who are violating our rights and we can defend the people who are unjustly arrested and accused and we can start working for righteousness sake the enemy because Jesus even said it

Matthew 12 22 to 32 a house divided against itself will fall and this is the thing we Christians have got to Be united, you know,

I've been suggesting this idea other ideas but the thing is we Christian need to do something method of talking about it and and if it comes down to self -defense of vaccines

If the vaccine is deadly if the vaccine is deleterious if it's whatever we don't know. Yeah, well actually we're finding out more

Did you hear that Eric Clapton what happened to Eric Clapton after he took the vaccine? He lost the use of his hands for a few days

Yeah, and we're finding out we're finding out that These really nice groups called

Facebook and Google Twitter these really objective groups. They're Christians Yeah, they're they're wonderful people they are censoring counter information

It's very difficult to find proper information and I've been searching this for a long time So all this stuff is real we as Christians if we're going to have the right of self -defense

Self -defense doesn't just mean someone comes into our home self -defense also means

Society is going liberal saying pro -homosexual Pro -abortion and we need to defend the truth of God make a whip of cords

Whatever that is equivalent to drive the people out of the false churches and temples But however, we do that and defend the helpless and stand up in unity and do this

Let me pose a question. So this Wednesday night teaching first Peter in our churches

Bible study And that's people can go to striving for your YouTube channel and see that Going through first Peter chapter 2 11 17 in there.

It talks about submitting to government Romans 13 has been challenged debated very much in the last year and a half.

So here here becomes the question as Matt what if God wants to bring

Marxism to the United States to punish Christian churches probably well Okay, so here's the question then you've just like he brought

Babylon in to judge the nation of Israel And they had 70 years of captivity because of their disobedience

Going against Babylon and I think Jeremiah is the one who ends up telling them submit to this he they're submitting to a

Tyrannical government that's gonna put them in the captivity. Yep. That is God's will so if it's

God's will I'm hoping it is not I'm praying Lord. Please be this not be your will but if it's

God's will for America to go Marxist and we were to fight against it then aren't we fighting

God's will There's what's called a decreed of will the prescriptive will and the permissive will and we could talk about that But the thing is that we are to fight evil we don't know what

God's ultimate decrees are and so our job is to resist evil all the way and consistently and and Vehemently as men do this, you know, one of the things is we see these women go into these these these councils these

You know where they talk about school council school meetings and the women they call them mama bears, you know

And I like that, you know, that's that's attractive if one had an AK strapped on my cold, baby

But they're sitting there doing all this stuff, right? I Don't see in the men really doing it this much now.

They are I see a lot of women Well, the men are the ones in the church who are obligated to stand up when

Adam and Eve were in the garden She sinned first the pre -incarnate Christ said to the man. Where are you?

Didn't say Eve. What have you done? He came to the man Our obligation as Christian men is to stand up against unrighteousness and I could talk about the women's response into this

But that's that's the thing we have to fight Marxism and socialism because they're ungodly the biblical means the biblical governmental system is capitalist

Self -representation or representation of groups of others the right of self -defense to do with the land as you want

It's right Chris. I worry. Yeah, sometimes that's right. We're a lot of people

Is I hear I hear all this man, I love you to death I hear all this stuff and I'm going man

It sounds really good in an on millennial perspective But from a perspective when

I look at I say, okay What's Christ doing in his timeline according to the scripture as I look at the scripture?

It's amazing how these things fall in line with Christ Returning for his bride to take his bride now

The Bible doesn't say that we are going to have no problems and everything's gonna be all Hunky -dory and then, you know, the

Lord's gonna come back take his bride home intense bad things happen The Bible says that the bad stuff is going to be all over the place

It's gonna be you know everywhere and it's clear that way if you just read the Bible consistent

Yeah You go to Matthew 13 41 where Jesus says he takes the wicked out of his kingdom and he says in Matthew 13 30th

The first ones taken before the Christians are the wicked I'm gonna get us back on to the wicked who are taken.

We're gonna take it first allow them both to go together first on the chairs

The same question so so so Dave what do you my view means that we look and we do we don't wait to escape

We work until we until we all home Yeah, I know a lot of people go why worry about it.

We'll get raptured Okay, so David let me ask in that same scenario right what do we do if it is

God's will that I mean To bring Marxism in would fighting against it be right or wrong.

I Mean, what kind of will well, I'm asking David now Kind of like one of those wind -up toys once you get him wound up he can't

Tough being right all the time An ideology such as Marxism or even what we find in CRT that you know

I can take some of this back to Marxism and whatnot. There's there's no way that I that Within the same sentence if it be

God's will that this happens because God that I don't see him bringing that kind of judgment or It is so anti God that God's children in the meantime are to resist that Against it

Do everything we have at our means to challenge it and to point out the evils that it it is

Telling an ungodly message and our response needs to be to counter that at all costs

Okay in the name of Christ for the glory of God We do this because it's right before God not because we want to just be upset and stop somebody from doing something bad

It must be for the glory of the Lord Jesus Christ that we Christian men stand up in Righteousness and be willing to face the consequences of physical financial social persecution.

That's going to come During a tribulation period for instance with oh, it's going to that's why you guys should are gonna know about it

So so here's the thing here's the thing that I think is often missed when people talk about submit to government

When we discuss that and we look at you know, we look at the passage, you know, such as in first Peter chapter 2 verse 13

Submit yourselves For the Lord's sake for the Lord's sake every human institution.

I Think this is the issue I find when it comes to submission to government It's that first part that so many people miss they read it as submit to human institutions, right?

And and they're skipping the essential argument there for the Lord's sake We are we submit to the

Lord and what the Lord commands us to do now if if God gave us a word as he did for Jeremiah that there was a judgment coming and Babylon's gonna come and do this now.

We're in a different situation. We have God's will we know what it is. It's clear. It's written and Therefore going against that's going to be different than going against the

Marxism today Which we don't know what the Lord's will is We don't know if God is using Marxism to create a revival in the country.

That could be his will we don't know So we have to fight evil, but we fight evil not because we're

Americans and we have rights Right, we fight evil because it is submitting unto

God we submit the we submit the reason we submit to ruling authorities to governments is

Because it is an act of submission to God and this is the thing I think is really missing that I've seen missing most of the

Discussions and debates on this is that aspect that we submit to God first and it's because we submit to God that we submit to government exactly

Yes, no unless the government becomes ungodly then we're obligated to resist it

And if we don't resist it as Christians that it becomes our God. Yeah I'm the

American Revolution right there. What was that that that was the basis for the American Revolution Which was that the government became ungodly under King George.

Yeah Yeah, well, you know that the Puritans are the ones who developed

At the request of of the people they went to the pastors here whenever it came over, you know 1600s develop a godly biblical governmental system and representation and right of ownership of land self -defense

And things like this and there's more Witnesses and trials and stuff like that They did that and these things have been worked down into our country and this is why we're strong Because of the principles that have been there well

Aren't we Christians? Obligated to resist evil. Yes, we are.

Well, then why is it that the Christians? You know, we hear we fight against it

We there's different ways of fighting against it But the Christian Church as a whole is not doing it the

Christian Church as a whole is weak and it's anemic and the the the problem lies at the feet of the of the clergy

Because they're the ones who have to teach so This is where it needs to start and it needs to change and they need to start speaking from the pulpit

About political issues the idea of separation of church and state and all this idiocy. That's crap

It's not biblical. Every area of life is under the Lordship of Jesus Christ politics included

I've even said in the radio you can't vote for so -and -so or this person or that person To say that but I do it anyway if they affirm homosexuality and abortion you can't vote for them because they're

Ungodly, and we're not to support ungodliness. So I'm neither Republican or a Democrat. I'm a constitutionalist

But yeah, and you know, I that's that I believe the Constitution is really a good document But anyway Christians need to stand up.

I believe that we're losing ground so fast It is sliding down the hill that it's going to take major work from the

Christians and just like you were saying Andrew Maybe it is God's, you know decreed of will so to speak that he is ordaining this

Discipline upon the country for the failure of the Christians and I tell people there's two ways to discipline internally self -discipline or Externally when

God works upon you and it's the latter that's occurring now because of the failures of the Christians We need to repent here at our own hearts and our own minds first and then move up well, let me bring

You're gonna say son David. Yeah, I was just gonna mention we I think there's a there's a

We're at a huge statistical disadvantage and I think we keep thinking that we're still a

Christian nation And you know 300

Yeah, we're 330 some million strong in this country and the total number of probably born -again

Bible -believing Christians in this country is between 7 and 9 percent Which puts us somewhere around 27 million, you know, and since you know in the 1960s with the immigration and naturalization laws that we passed we have become completely

Pluralistic there's approximately 1270 different religions in this country right now.

We are by definition than a pagan nation and Which is a wonderful opportunity for gospel outreach

Okay, but when you know in other words we have a on a mass scale

We could be reaching a lot of people so there's there's some real problems already right there

So the idea of appealing back to the fathers of this nation Well, the majority of people in this country have no idea what you're talking about anymore

You know what? I mean? And so as man said Constitutionalist most people have thrown out the

Federalist Papers. They've never read them So, you know, they have no idea what they don't know what they are they don't know what they aren't nor the the the you know, the

Foundation of a Christian nation So it's gonna be we're wide open for any kind of an ideological take, right?

Well, actually the blaze says that there's a warning now someplace National Archives Records Administration determined recently that America's founding documents may be harmful or difficult for some users to view

So the Declaration of Independence the Constitution the Bill of Rights or have warning labels on So, why is this the case because the devil wants to destroy

Christianity doesn't want the gospel preached and yeah Yeah, we're probably the most organized

Christian nation in the world, although Africa there's there in larger number and even in China But we're we have yet the resources the

Christian resource And that's one thing I'll say is is that we have internally in the church we have

False teachers we have false doctrine. We have false theology We have we have all types of false things going on in the professing church

Not the actual church, but the professing church and and you know, what you're saying

Matt is is is right What you're saying Dave is right That is why

I'm you know, I want to I want to go ahead and plug that Shepherds Theological Seminary These guys are are trying with all of the fibers in their being

To push back against the tide of critical race theory the the liberalization and the socialized

Ideologies that is coming into the Southern Baptist Convention To to the false teaching that it's going around and they're trying to push back against that tide to say look we can have biblical

God glorifying men and women not and it's not just pastors that are going to be taught at STS but the majority of pastors that are being taught there are being equipped to Stand against that time and that's what we need to be doing.

That's where we need to be I want to encourage everybody go check it out. If you have any ideas Yes, so that's shepherds .edu

is the is that so let me bring Ron in he's been backstage this whole time Ron for folks is someone you've seen he where he is makes comments he's usually here in the background and So the first time coming in and I know we had

Pedro in earlier Pedro's always he comes in and always has trouble connecting And then drops out but Pedro if you're still there if you got a question, you can ask online

So captain black eagle aka Ron Welcome. I Know that you're a regular in our

Christian apologetics group But you had some questions that you wanted to bring up earlier

I know I told you we're gonna want to get some of this discussion out So what were some of the questions that you had? Are you there?

Oh, maybe he's not there. You got raptured. Yep No, because the rest of us didn't met

That's a good I can see YouTube. I know nobody else is around So Here's the deal.

First of all, I spent 20 years in the military Thank you. I've listened to everything you guys have said and you are absolutely 100 % correct if it was not for the

Christian worldview The things that I would have done in the military would have me living in hell right now

The question I had for you and this is a complicated question I used to teach use of force when you can use force when you can't use force and to what extreme you can use

Force and here was the question that I always pose to my classes. You're sitting here in the room

Somebody comes in through the door and they have a pipe in their hand They hold the pipe in the air and they say

I'm gonna blow everybody up in this room Can you shoot them? The normal answer was

I don't know I'm like, it's already too late to make a decision Yes, and even if you shot him and they let go of that bomb and it still went off You would still be in the same situation, but you have to make a choice you can it's an instantaneous choice

It's not something like well, let me talk with my friends to say what they think you've got to do it right away

Is that wrong? To pose that question Is it wrong to pose the question or Yeah, you should never pose a question like that ever

You know Is that can

I ask a question when you use that illustration was the pipe he was holding was it Oh, did you describe it as an active bomb?

Yeah, no, and I didn't do it because you'll never know if it's an active bomb Because that's that's what

I was my answer was gonna involve just that I was my answer would be that I first have to believe

If it's a if it's a pipe where I can see both ends are open Then I'm not believing it's a pipe bomb.

I have to believe it's a real bomb so if I believe

So my answer would kind of be complicated in the sense I don't think it's as simple as a yes or no because I don't have enough information in the hypothetical to answer

So I the first thing I'm gonna have to decide is is it a genuine threat that I think that more than just myself

Are going to be harmed by whatever he has. I know the liberals will say you we shoot him in the hand

Because that way he doesn't know for simple for folks to understand Trying to shoot someone in the hand or in the leg in a split second is very very difficult to do

There's a greater chance You'll miss and harm someone else in in a crowded room you go for the largest mass of body

Which is the center part of the body, which is why you would shoot there. So I would shoot there So I guess

Chris on holds is saying shoot shoot the bomb Matt. You got it. You got it. So I Think the closest illustration is what we learned like in the military for instance that I would not

Not knowing if this is c4 or whatever you're dealing with Remember and we even awarded men medals for this some most often posthumously

Consider it in the area like that's a grenade. So what do you do? Somebody sacrifices their life for the sake of the others and that's where I was going to go with the question with the answer from a

Christian perspective and a law enforcement perspective here My my duty is to defend life to defend and protect them

It's almost the same realm when you're dealing with Firearms and you're having to shoot somebody or not.

You have a group of people come in and they're they're shooting up whatever area which happens How are you justified in taking their lives the questions asked

Constantly because Christians want to know I look at it from this perspective. I'm not doing this to take a life

I'm doing this to stop taking a wife and You're exactly right for the gospel sake and here's why

I say that if I can stop the bad guy You guys got the light bulb and if I can if I can get to that And cover myself with it.

I know where I'm going guys, right? I have no doubt that guy I'm going to heaven Christ saved my soul.

I was a wicked vile sinner. God saved me I wasn't looking he found me.

He saved my wicked soul. I am now obligated To be the man that's going to stand on that pipe bomb like like they've just said this is a grenade

What no matter what condition it is. I'm jumping on it. The bad guys come in the door I'm going to stop them if I can not to take their life.

I Want to clarify this this is not to take a life This is so that all the other pagans in the community can see that I have died to the glory of God to serve

Christ for the gospel and Andrew can come along and say you know why he just did that because of Jesus Christ and you need to know

Christ is your Savior but you were given another moment That's folks for folks listening.

Let me just emphasize what you and David why the distinction made there is If you have a grenade or a pipe bomb, okay

Shooting a person does here's the question ends up having to be asked and I think this is what

Ron's probably getting to Does that stop the destruction? No in in fact

Shooting them depending what it is If it's a grenade and they already pulled the pin shooting them guarantees that it's probably gonna go off it enhances it

Pressurized trigger. Yeah, so so the the thing is you're you're it's not always as simple as just One or the other

Because there's a lot of things that you have to take into and and for folks that are listening us This is what we're hoping you will get through with sound like this

This is the we've said this throughout the show. You've heard it by by Dave. You heard it by Matt These are not simple things.

These are complex things It's not always a simple answer and there's a lot to be looked at with this and therefore one of the things that really bothers me lately with Christians online is

The the attitude of if you don't agree with me you just support evil There's a lot of complexity in these issues and it's you need to take the time to understand

Why someone comes to the conclusion that they come to do not just say that well if you don't agree with my conclusion

Well, maybe they didn't think of the things you thought about or maybe you didn't think about the things they thought about Let me just tell you

Matt wrote this article on karm And I I think I think madam I'm just going from memory but I would say half dozen to a dozen people that were on the

Review list that we're going through giving comments and I talked about it

Yeah, and you know, so we Matt doesn't just write these articles and puts Matt There's there's a bunch of us that get in on this and he bounces ideas off things

Then he writes things and bounce and then there's people who say hey, can you review this? Why because all of us have a different perspective on things

We need to look at that and not just accuse people being wrong right out the bat Yeah, so just kind of my soapbox, but Ron, let me go.

I didn't know if you had more questions But you know, that was the actually the whole reason we asked the question.

It wasn't you know, are you right or wrong? It's what would you do? And that's what you guys need to talk about is what will you do if that ever happened?

It's like when you shoot somebody why are you shooting them center mass? Because if you shoot them in the hand, you can still kill them

The shooting of someone at least from a military perspective was always what got you in trouble

If you shoot at someone with no reason then you're going to go to jail if you shoot at somebody for a reason

But then you shot well, for instance at their arm and you miss and you kill kids in a schoolyard

You're gonna go to jail It's not an easy question and most of it isn't war is not an easy question

But I do appreciate the answers you guys have given. It's perfect Thank you.

You have any other questions or for us tonight? Oh, there's so many for Dave. We're talking, you know theory of war.

I Look back at Jonathan when Jonathan is standing on a hill Coming down that hill killing

Philistine's left and right his father Saul is hanging out in a bunker Trying to see figure out what's going on Jonathan has confused the enemy so crazily that they're killing each other.

That's what we're supposed to do We're supposed to confuse The Satan worshipers and the heretics out there already in power.

They're called Democrats are very confused Jumping in the same boat true

But if that's what it's about, it's about confusing the enemy getting them going after each other not us going after each other

That's all I got. That's right. You guys did great. I really enjoyed it Dave did you want to comment on that at all?

No, okay. So let me just piggyback off Ron what you said, you know, Matt If anyone hasn't figured out

Matt is crazy, but let me give one example of his craziness He decided not to go to town

Dallas, Texas to debate one atheist But two atheists two separate nights on two separate topics, so they only had to prepare one debate

He had to prepare to not a smart thing. He handled both from brilliantly and won both especially when his

The guy he's debating the second night like actually he was like, let's not do a cross -examination

That's How you know someone lost then he goes on his own show for two hours saying how he won no you lost They got upset.

He did several videos. I found out. Oh, yeah. I want to get down there to Austin I want to get a church down there having come down.

I want to do a thing on on atheism and Have some debate discussions with atheists.

Anyway, let me ask you a question if I may There's this is about you. And this is the first time we've had a no

It's a good one to me are all of your articles and things you've written or at least recent are they on calm org the sites

Almost 26 years old have written probably five six I don't know thousands of articles and I have a few other thousand.

I haven't even released yet We also have other Helpers and stuff like that. But yeah, yeah good search engine to find them.

Uh -huh Yeah, and like, you know, I get a little obsessive. I wrote a hundred and eighty -two articles on Annihilationism a little assistive just a little and so I when

I study something I just dive in and I believe it or not I'll just say this people know I have

Asperger's and so there's this there's Advantages is advantages. One of the advantages is

I can remember patterns numbers and I can be really obstreperous No, I Can confirm that I'm anxious to read because I've written in the area of annihilationism.

I'll look that up. Thank you Oh, yeah, I got good arguments against it and calling out some people on by name who are teaching some damnable heresy inside of annihilationism physicalism and Better topic.

Here's the thing Matt when you when you did that you we did those debates down there in Dallas you and I went down There I don't know if you remember this but there was a and I don't even remember there was son

There was an atheist that was online Something had happened that within Christianity we'd say that disqualifies them from you know from being in what we call ministry, right?

and it was interesting because when we were there we had a lot of professing atheists there and You went out to dinner.

Oh, yeah. We yeah, but but I had the same birthday as me I remember that it was weird, but there was there was

I was asking many of them about that individual who You know basically had an affair and different things and it was interesting because The overwhelming response was they would they would ignore it.

They would If they recognized it is wrong. They would justify why he should still should be a have a platform and things like that and There was one guy and I think you'll remember this we spent a lot of time with him

Cowboy hat I'm not gonna give a name. He used to be a regular on the show But he he actually said when

I asked him he said look Andrew, I like you guys I like you I like Matt But here's the thing

He's doing a great job for our side and it's not about what he does in his personal life.

It's about beating Christians and And I remember after that we went to dinner and and we were talking about that and we realized this guy understands

What Christians should be doing is that we should be recognizing who the enemy is and it's not each other

It's it's not let's have all our squabbles on Facebook and public so everyone could see they they're actually unified in the idea of attacking an enemy and And this is one of the reasons

I think so many Christians don't really like why are we losing these things because they're very clear

And what their goal is to put an end to Christianity We're not so clear in spreading the gospel

Notice the difference there are Our objective is not to put to put an end to atheism in the sense that we got to wipe them out

Spread the gospel so that they they know the truth. There's a big difference between those two And so I think that's the the thing that I with this particular topic

Romans 13 submission to government man. I have seen more division on this subject

That Online and elsewhere. That is quite disappointing Because people want to be able to have something to give them an excuse to not be responsible

Submit to the government don't think don't do don't worry. Just submit that means

I can go about my business I have to worry about anything But true Christianity is not easy

Christianity Jesus has pick up your cross and follow after me on a daily basis He says if you don't do this, you're not worthy of me go out into this into the world make disciples of all nations

I personally don't understand how any Christians real Christians consider out and do nothing when people are going to hell now

I'm not saying every mom was pregnant and got three kids on the floor You know has to go out and do evangelism of course not but we have certain callings and certain abilities and certain things that within our

Context that God has given us and equipped us to do and and another thing is that we need to be ready to make mistakes

Too many Christians are afraid to mess up, you know, Andrew you and I have preached We went out to a place in New York your

Union Square Union Square and I remember that and you know No one speaks perfectly and I remember good.

I don't know if I messed up or not But I you know what I don't care I get up I'm gonna talk and we do the best

I can and we have to not be afraid to take chances and take risks I was on a daily show. It didn't work out.

So well, they did but in other areas it does work We have got to be as Christians take chances and go forward

That's why I like to hear stories of failures as well as successes because failures are also successes because we're doing something

I believe we need to trust God and go forward and that we can because we have that banner

We have the Lord Jesus Christ We have the power of that gospel and he wants us to do that And if we're in his will and we're preaching that gospel and doing what he desires

Then he's gonna open up the right doors at the right time the right way It's his job not ours to open up those doors.

Ours is just to go through them to be obedient One of the things that has been refreshing for me right now,

I'm teaching a course in an advanced course on patristic theology and Just camping in the first five centuries and many of the students have not had anything like that in history or theology and the thing that as you read the epistles the the number one theme

James was writing to Christians in his epistle on how we now live an early

Christian Church But Peter writes what it is to be a Christian living in an alien culture

And you'll start to see that as you start to read the Apostolic Fathers that first that they're the first Generation after the

Apostles and they cover the first and second generation. So you got letters like first Clement second

Clement They're not at all inspired and you can see the drop -off right away and spirituality from them

But the thing that you notice is they would write in some of them are very weary and tiresome to read through But the theme that they were trying to deal in the first 50 years and then in the next 100 years and then in the next as we go in through the these the apologists and then they we went through the

I mean we come with the Apostolic Fathers then the apologists and then the polemicists and then we get to the theologians that what they're dealing with is

Christians became comfortable in the cultures they were Living in this has been the plague of Christianity the acquiescence to culture for 20 centuries

And that were Today in in the the world in which we live the modern world we we we as as you mentioned

Andrew and Matt's been talking about just brought up and that is we look at America and we expect our government and we

Expect it to give us We are for Christians, we we've joined the culture we are old days

This is my rights and it comes down, you know where I'm going with this Yeah You know one of the things though also and I remember you teaching this in one of either

Church history one or two I forget which one and I'm gonna show how much I actually paid attention and remember it

But you you always talked about these periods of a pendulum swing where there's always the the pendulum it swings out one way and people go to this and then it swings back and And how we're always seeing that in church history in our in the theology and you know

My prayer is that maybe with you know, everything going on and I actually think that Joe Biden has done more

Than Donald Trump ever could in waking up Conservative Christians to say oh

Like all of the things I was taking for granted are being taken away Look, it's time for me to actually take my faith serious and do something about what

I say I believe hey, and you know what? It's only taken eight months Yeah Imagine what's gonna be like in three years.

Yeah Look how far we have slid away. Yeah months, which means

If you want to use the Old Testament term sleeping, you know on the wall and And we have a we have a very very complacent lethargic

Christianity right now and I think we're on the verge of of people becoming

Very serious in the pew because they're now experiencing it at once And the first and and let's go back to the kovat vaccination for a moment for the first time

For many of them. It's like wait a minute. I have to think do I? Do I what do

I really even believe in something now that? Is striking my family and me yeah

And so it's not their Christianity being shaken yet. This is we're this is just a you know

Starting to experiment for many of them Well, you know Years ago.

I won't give all the details and it wasn't bad or good just how life is I had to make a decision and the decision to be as godly and forthright according character my heart before God I knew it was going to cost me a great deal

It was the loss of a ministry over it and I stuck with what I thought was right before God I'm gonna tell you it cost a great deal and it did and It took years actually decades for my wife and I to financially recover from stuff

But God somehow provided through all of it a lot of times Christians think You know these morons on TV with the perfect hair perfect teeth and all this stuff, you know

God wants you healthy wealthy and all this idiocy, you know They think this is what we deserve because Jesus is the blonde -haired blue -eyed caucasian surfer dude dressed on a woman's nightgown

And so this is who they think Christ is and it's just not the way it is when you live for Jesus There's gonna be persecution.

God has granted that we're gonna suffer Philippians 129 Not that we want to but it's gonna happen and we need to be willing to to to move forward and it's a reward

It's a blessing It's a blessing in this I've been through it. It's a blessing We're alien strangers pilgrims

Walking we are light in a dark world and we are being opposed in Persecution and why that surprises people now and it's shot.

They're shocked and it's like this This is what? God said you need to expect

Christ told us this was coming and they hated me. They're gonna hate you

Yeah, you know one thing I want to point out I'm gonna let you finish up and then we're gonna close out the show.

We are at a two -hour mark I like to end on time. I know our audience hates that and they like us to go longer, but we did promise

Dave We didn't go two hours and well, you know cut him loose and let him be able to get to his family

But you know, so why don't you finish and then I'll wrap up the show Okay, but one thing I want to point out is that we're talking about just war we're talking about self -defense and whatnot

The ultimate self -defense is the gospel of Jesus Christ Because every single one of us are gonna stand before a holy

God and I don't care what you do You're not going to make it out of this world life You know, it doesn't matter what we do.

We're not going to make it out of this world life. And so when we're Having these debates. It's among Christians a family -friendly debate the discussion

But to seek to understand how we should live and act and as all of us have said here

The most important priority is the gospel of Jesus Christ So if you don't know Christ as your Savior Lord if you die right now what's gonna happen

I'll tell you you're gonna stand before a holy God you're gonna stand before a holy God in judgment under the wrath and condemnation that you deserve because All liars will have their part in like a fire

No thief or blasphemer in the kingdom of heaven and you and I every one of us. We've violated and offended a holy

God It doesn't matter how good you are how bad you are. It doesn't matter if you're Taliban or if you're

Joe Biden, it doesn't matter if you're anyone in Anything in between when you stand before a holy

God, what's it going to be like? You need Christ as your Savior because he's the only one that can tell you why we have a just war theory

He's the only one that can consistently tell you what it means to be holy and right in the sight of God He's the only one that make you right through the gospel through his sacrificial sacrifice on the cross for you

Now if you know Christ as your Savior, what should you be doing now? Should you be preaching against the government and everything else to a point?

Yes, but your main sermon had better be Everyone needs to know Christ Everyone needs

Christ. It doesn't matter who you are. That's where our churches have failed We need to get pick up that cross and follow it today

And this was the thing Justin that you and I tried to bring up several times When we've dealt with some of these issues with folks is the fact that the gospel is the issue

We are we submit to God first and then government and if we don't get that order, right?

we're we're gonna be woefully wrong in in the application because What's gonna be is we're gonna let our pride make the decisions what we want to be, right?

And we need to submit to God first now. I know that for some folks you This we've we've just kind of opened the can of worms, right?

We've just kind of peeled back a little bit of the onion This is the thing with this. This is not easy to work through Justin you you just heard what class you should be taking there at the seminary.

That's next semester You better sign up for that But but seriously this there's so much involved in this even with with Ron's question that he asked

It's it's you asking a question because there's not a clear answer There's a lot of questions.

You need to get answered first before you can answer something So the the challenge with this as a way of application when it comes to apologetics

You need to think through the issues You can't just come to quick conclusions because you feel it's right or you read one scripture verse and that answers everything

One scripture is enough as long as it's within context. However, the issue is

Is that applied properly to the situation you're in? There's a lot more that we usually have to take into account when we look at these things a lot of people are taking knee -jerk reactions on what to do and What bothers me the most that you know,

I go back to what what was occurring back with Jim Coates up in there in Canada And people were saying that his he was wrong

You know saying that you know, there were those that agreed with the way Arthur Pulaski was handling things There were people that agreed with the way

Jim Coates handled two very different ways of handling it You know, but the question is and this you go back to first Peter to 11 to 17.

What's he doing? He's talking about your you know, our holiness our testimony submitting to government There's more to submission to government than just whether we submit or not

We we answer to a higher calling as Christians We have to be good ambassadors for Jesus Christ And so when we do things we are to do it to represent

Christ Well, in fact to the point where Peter says there, I think it's verse 15 Yeah, verse 15 for such as the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men

That's right. That's the thing. It's not about us promoting our rights. It is about us

Promoting Jesus Christ and letting him shine even maybe in a dark time

That's a hard message and I understand that but may it be an encouragement to you to know that many many many believers have gone that same path before us and Have done right and silenced the mouth of the ignorant

And so when we're answering these things or you know, maybe we need to say are we submitting to God in this?

What what's our purpose in in our view whether to submit to government or not or how would this specific issues and And ask you the question.

Are we? Gonna be in our behavior Getting people to say oh look That's just a prideful

Christian or are we gonna get them saying you know what? I got nothing to say Look at how they're been So it's for us to think about until next week next week

Justin I'm trying to look at what we got on the schedule here for next week. I believe we have Next week is the that's right.

Next week. We have Justin Peters coming in. We're gonna be doing a response to Sam Storms article

Sam Storms did an article Basically saying that you should or could sing

Bethel music and Hillsong in your churches as folks here No, Justin has been against that and we're gonna let

Justin give a response that and may pick up some other topics that we may discuss but Hope you come back next week for that Remember to strive to make today an eternal day for the glory of God and we'll see you next week.