Just War Theory and Can Christians Defend Themselves?

Was Andrew the one that helped you get the podcast back up?

Yeah, he did.

Get the podcast didn't help me.

He did it.

Don't you think you owe him a dinner for that?

Welcome to apologetics live.

We're here to answer your questions and challenges about God and the Bible.

Meet your hosts from striving for Fraternity ministries Andrew Rappaport dr. Anthony Silvestro and

pastor Justin Pierce.

We are live Apologetics live here to answer your questions every Thursday night 8 to 10

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God and the Bible.

You don't believe us come on in and give us that challenge now.

You heard that intro which means that well, Justin, what do you think?

That means that intro?

Somebody owes you dinner.

Yes.

That must mean that Matt slick is gonna be with us tonight.

Okay, we we will have to make Matt and you know, I I'll have to let Matt explain that.

But I think he'll have a he'll get some some boasting out of it.

Now.

Finally after nine years gonna say he finally got it.

Yeah, yeah, this is gonna be it.

So let me give you how this show came about tonight.

And this is this I should say this is a ministry of striving fraternity you can go to striving for train org check out our resources if

you want to have one of us come out to your church and do a Seminar weekend seminar we come to churches and we

go to smaller churches.

I can't afford so don't think that just because you're a small church.

You can't have us come out.

No, that's exactly where we want to go.

We want to train up your people so that you can then take it from there and continue that training things like how to interpret the

Bible.

Apologetics evangelism social justice is a big one these days.

We've been doing more of those I think this past year and a half than any other.

So you could go to striving for an org check out there.

So Matt slick and I from calm org we were discussing he was putting out a paper on calm at about

can Christians defend themselves and We were having a long discussion.

We've had these discussions in least recent months quite a bit and We came up with the

idea of having kind of a panel discussion here and We have someone who I will admit that

I was nervous having him in.

But not as much as you are.

Yes adjusted because this is one of my old seminary professors and you're now seminary professor.

So you really have to be careful.

He will be soon.

So you're gonna have classes with him.

Yeah.

So what I've decided to do just so you know, it's just not even speak I.

Know dr. Burggraf and he wants you speaking in class.

That's good, this is a name that many of you won't know but he was my first choice in coming in as dr. David Burggraf.

He's with Shepherd seminary and I'm gonna let him introduce more about himself but I knew him back at Calvary Baptist

Theological Seminary when he was the Dean there and So he was the first choice to have in as glad that we had him in his

Dissertation was in the issue of just war when I took a biblical ethics class with him, by the way,

Justin.

Just so you know any class with him is great, but you need to take a history class with him.

Because he's there the history is one of those things where you have people that just don't know how to teach history.

Well, they don't make it come alive.

It's just dates and people's names and it's boring.

Yeah, not so with him in fact I actually had we I had him out at my church wants to do it.

We were doing a conference and He weaves through his systematic theology background with his

history background.

So much so that what ends up happening is you end up getting a history of theology because he goes in

explains.

Well, why did they argue this because this is what was going on?

And so that he gives that background so well, so I ended up saying hey.

Can you can you do a history of theology and I think he actually the I think a semester or two after that.

There was a class in the seminary history of theology.

When I was like, oh, that's great.

But he'll love having him.

I will admit at that conference I just spoke of.

I was nervous because he was taking notes frantically and I thought like oh, no.

This is like back in seminary.

He's taking.

With all the corrections everything I said wrong and you know how you preach and you're thinking things like that.

Yeah.

Yeah, I get done.

I'm like, okay.

What did I say wrong?

He's like nothing.

I said well you were taking notes.

He's like yeah, I was taking notes.

You See that one person and you're thinking what.

What I do wrong.

I know I said something wrong just the way they're looking and you're just you almost lose focus especially when it's

somebody that you really respect and that you really want to.

Understand what you're saying and and appreciate it.

So yeah, well, let's let's bring in someone that's known by many here Matt slick from Karma .org.

I at least owe it to you to let you explain why I played that clip at the beginning and.

And and then let you get a little gloating in because you did get all the reason is because

you're you're you're an immature.

Person who likes to rub victories in.

For years at a time.

And so those of you who are listening who know the story.

Unfortunately how it goes is this jerk right here.

Repeatedly, I have to admit it repeatedly outsmart me when it came to Buying lunches

and dinners.

I was even out at his place once got up 20 minutes early to go buy the dinner.

And he'd already paid for it.

I mean just stuff like that and then we got store.

We got story years for nine years.

But then on your what your 100th show of this show I Had.

I came on for one house here, that's right and I had sushi sushi

delivered to your house.

And so that's the only way I could get you.

I had to be out of the state.

Had to surprise you.

It's up like that.

It finally works and I get a little bit of gloating on that so all right, I.

Should say the other just I forgot to say.

The other person I wanted on was Phil Johnson.

He does have some old blogs that were very good on the on this subject.

He just he said he couldn't make it tonight because he's got an elders meeting at Grace Community Church.

I told him to get his priorities straight, you know.

But but let me welcome on for the first time dr. David burgh.

Graph.

It is a distinct privilege for me.

I I probably know you the best here.

But it's a distinct privilege to have you on.

Let me for our audience if you could just introduce yourself a bit and and what you're up to lately because.

This is the first time I think you and I have spoken to each other and probably would you say like?

15 20 years.

15 20 years perhaps.

Yeah, and I was amazed when we got on you.

You look old so.

No, we call me back though back.

I think I met you before you were in school in seminary.

Had just a really good time together and even then I met you at a conference in New Jersey.

I think it was speaking at the church their invite on a Saturday or something.

There was a conference and.

We sat together over lunch or something and you just keep asking questions upon questions.

But they were all good questions, and it's like fine.

There's a thinker in the room, and I enjoyed that.

It really did and we had.

What I think it was.

Andrew, yeah.

But that continued all the way through so thank you for the kind introduction.

It was way way over the top, but I think we actually met probably in in.

I'm gonna say 90 or 91 yeah.

Something yeah, I just come back from doctoral work about that time and.

And I think it was in Freehold or one of those areas or something yet.

And it's a memory yeah, yeah, and so yeah, I can visualize the church.

It was a great opportunity, and we've been friends and when Justin mentioned hey He

knows Andrew is like oh my goodness.

Here a month later we are and so I want to thank Justin for that opportunity as well.

Well absolutely I'm just I'm really am thrilled.

Personally I mean just you know I've been enjoying myself the the seminary.

I pulled up the website, and I'm gonna try to get over here for everybody to be able to go see it.

The seminary is just it's excellent.

The pastors the teachers everyone.

Excellent, and I'm really yeah.

Yes, thank you the the seminary is about 18 years old and actually one of the best -kept secrets.

Going on in it the reason is it it actually is a seminary in a church for the

church Was colonial Baptist Church in Cary, North Carolina.

Now it's in December we changed the name to the Shepherds Church mainly because we're trying to do overseas

work and always having to explain colonial colonialism in Africa or

in the Middle East gets a little bit difficult and so We chose the name

the Shepherds Church because of the we are.

Also we have a missions.

We're sort of our own missions board with the Shepherds International, but the seminary

As I said is here.

This year we talked about 200 students that were primarily engaged in the

Master of Divinity Master of Arts doctoral degrees and We were just

in a feature article in one of the magazines for ATS the Association of

Theological seminaries.

Because of the 270 seminaries right now seven of them are

Growing by double digits and in the last five years where most of them are either staying

Stable or decreasing and we grew 86 percent in the last five years.

So that's been pretty exciting to be a part of that.

Give me your background because I know.

Some folks might be instantly even in what your undergraduate degrees were in as well as your

theological degrees.

Well, I did not know about a born -again Christian a Bible believer until I was 22 years old.

I had grown up in Minnesota and My parents had been in

a Catholic background and so that's what I was raised through parochial schools.

After high school, I went into the service.

That's when Vietnam War was going strong.

So I enlisted and served in the Army Reserves and

active duty for six years got out and Went to the University of Minnesota and

graduated as a chemical engineer in bio Medical nuclear engineering and

was going to go to medical school.

But my wife and I both my parents got saved and that was almost by accident.

We became believers shortly thereafter and then I Ended

up feeling called to the ministry.

And so we started seminary in Minnesota.

That's our home state and Did a master divinity went on to do a master of

theology Pastored for 10 years church plant and then pastored

the church grew in Philadelphia area actually was Hershey, Pennsylvania area

for 10 years and then I Pastored back in my home state of Minnesota for three I was

invited to come back to the seminary and teach during that time I was working on a doctor of ministry degree

went on to do my PhD at Dallas Seminary graduated in theological studies and Went

to teach it went to teach as a full -time professor and chairman of department at Calvary

Baptist Seminary and Became the Dean president and was there for 17

years.

And then for three years, I was asked to board at Clearwater Christian College did that and while

it was there I was invited as a speaker here at the colonial Baptist Church pastor

Steven Davey and We struck up a wonderful friendship that he was starting or

leading his church to start a seminary they did.

And he was bringing together professors many of them who were had been friends of mine for 30 years or so

Coming out of like the Masters Seminary Dallas Seminary as a seminary.

We actually Birthed a seminary that came out of the womb as an adult.

And we brought professors who had over 200 to 300

years worth of combined experience teaching and 200 years worth of pastoral

experience and so on our first blush through where most ATS

seminaries get you know go through a process to get accredited our first

blush.

We were fully accredited by ATS For the full first seven years before we had to go

through a review.

So the program has just taken off and we're all about church planting.

We set out in 2016 to do 20 churches by 2020 and we've done that we're

now trying to plant 25 more by 25 2025 so we plant churches and we're

doing revitalization all over the country right now of churches and We've have extensions in

Wyoming, Texas World

South Carolina Florida now, Georgia, so we're

Launching and we do sites in churches to that we call clusters.

So there's some pretty exciting things.

We're doing some innovative things in seminary training right now.

Well, that's neat, I don't know if you saw in the private chat, but Matt says he wants to do his doctor of ministries.

So we'll have to hook you two up.

Absolutely.

Launched it last year having a wonderful program.

We've got some firsts with ATS.

And it's exciting and we we're we have a national conference now.

That's.

You'd know the speakers many of them they range from this year Al Mohler Irwin

Lutzer to you know, the Kosti.

Alexander struck so you got to have a Jersey boy in there.

And Bruce where.

Yeah, you name it so we have about 40 speakers.

So let's get into the topic tonight and if you see on your screen, you can see it's it's

Shepherds 360 .org is the URL mentioned that just for those who are

watching who are listening on the podcast later.

So This has been a big issue Lately is the whole question of Ken Christians defend

themselves.

How far can they go?

What what justifies?

What can we do as far as? self -defense and and then the issue of just really

just war theory now you Dr. Berg Ruff, you're that was your dissertation and

I've sat in class with you going through this and Just for the audience to understand in an

ethics classes you were going through Explaining just war theory and you're saying you kept going.

Well, I can't go into more detail I can't go into more detail and my mind was being blown with the different things I'm like, I've

never even thought of that.

I never thought of that.

You know is it there was so much to it and I know Matt when Matt and I were talking He was like, you know, I really want to

get someone that is that knows this stuff.

Well, there's someone we can ask questions to and things like that.

We want to spend and I know we got some people backstage we want to spend the first part of the hour or so

just First giving you an opportunity to kind of open up what just war theory is for a while

Explaining it the whole idea of self -defense and then kind of just allow us to pepper you with

questions.

Essentially kind of like a classroom.

So If you could give us an overview What is just war theory?

What what do we see as biblical principles when it comes to self -defense?

Sure.

Thank you.

I think we have to do in in that is a perhaps for a moment Talk

just war theory and keep it on a national level where a nation can defend itself.

And then bring it back into individual self -defense.

And so if you can break it into two categories that might help you quite a bit I Got

interested real quickly just a little bit in this because I was doing my doctoral work in the area of

theology and probably one of the most Important figures

in what we would call the Western Church in understanding theology was Augustine.

So I was doing my work in the area of patristics and.

And it was interesting because as I was studying The concept of or dealing with

Augustine. I wanted to deal with How how theologians do theology and

so during that doctoral work?

I was doing a lot of work it on that topic the theological methodology

Beginning with the Bible its hermeneutics its interpretation.

And then how do we make these profound statements that we do as theologians and as pastors and

people go?

How'd you get that.

And so I wanted to figure out how do how we do that?

And Augustine is the ideal model because more he has done more research and and

writing than other and there are more libraries dedicated to him

Next to the Lord of any other man, who's lived.

And so I was studying him.

But something in the process is he actually was the first Christian

to write on a theory of War and when you study it he

actually didn't he just he laid out the principles That deal with

can a Christian go to war prior to him there was a Lot of

ambivalence about Christians being involved even in the military.

And and is it proper for a Christian to be in the military and can?

Christians kill especially when Jesus said you know in the Sermon on the Mount turn your cheek.

Which is probably one of the most misunderstood passages of Scripture to begin with.

When it comes to this whole discussion of war and killing but

What just war theory is is within?

The idea of Christianity is there a

way to discern whether a war is actually proper.

Is it something can Christians go to war?

Is war then something that God would As it were

permit and then so if we if that is possible then What

would be the criteria for which then to say, okay these criteria are met.

Therefore we can engage in a war.

We can commit ourselves and our troops are our sons and our daughters now

into this war and and As they sacrifice for their nation.

Is it even proper or is it something we're gonna have to answer to God for because we stumbled into it.

Once we engage in a war and we've met those criteria.

Then how do we conduct war?

So the two categories of just war in the words the terms JWT just war

theory mean the justification for going to war and the

justification for killing in war and.

And then how do we wage the war?

And so there are several criteria for then What's called

juice in bellow and that is the justice for going to war

and then.

Juice odd Bellum, excuse me.

And then juice imbella is the idea of a justice in war how we should act.

So those are two categories we can go into those deeper.

We can talk about the criteria.

But it's important and the United States of America has used just war theory

As its guiding principles.

Most Christians down through history have especially once we hit the Reformation

thereafter Luther Calvin Zwingli.

And in great theologians thereafter and pastors after that as and then

the for instance in the great divines who will use then

convesh confessions and others throughout the church and.

And Canonists and jurists and today in our country you say in the United

States Senators congressmen any from Christian backgrounds are going to appeal to just war theory.

And Lincoln did others did when we went to war right after 9 -11 coming up on its

20th anniversary when we went into Afghanistan then or the Middle East and then as

we went to war again with Iraq.

Every time on the floor of Congress.

They're weighing out the principles and they're talking in the categories of just war theory and

and actually then it was Augustine picking up some early

seed thoughts from Aristotle already on how the Greeks then the

Romans used criteria for going to war.

Is this something we should engage in is it worth it?

Augustine then came on the scene because he was asked by Count General Boniface.

He was writing in response to attacks against Christians that your God of

the Old Testament is a killing God versus Jesus so there's two gods and so he

wrote to Faustus a Manichaean and he spelled out then the principles for war and

he laid them the groundwork that thinking the Theology that later got structured into

what we call just war theory.

And and so that's how we got to what has become then part of the Christian Church the

last 1 ,500 years.

So could you explain explain what just war theory is.

And.

Then you know, let's dig into a little bit of how you know our day and age.

This is becoming popular, right?

There's a lot of people.

You know specifically like you look in Canada Mint is.

You know arresting pastors.

Freeing people that are rapists and murderers.

Arresting pastors and then chaining up their churches.

So that they can't go in.

And that that really became a big topic here on this show even we had lots of none.

What should the church do?

Cut the fence down and go in anyway.

Do we do is as James Coates did by just going off -site and places like that?

So could you explain just war theory.

Then explain, you know, what your view is on how we should handle things in our with our own country.

Yeah, the I think you know to your to your

intro right there Andrew what's really important is there's a host of questions

that you're you're raising there and and.

And it raises the question, you know.

Well a couple of things and if I can back up a little in just war theory and just sort of lay the Lay

out the map and then we'll start Moving some things around on it or or if we could it let's lay out

the the chessboard and then start putting the pieces in.

There really are three and I heard it mentioned already here.

There are three categories that People find themselves in when it starts when we get down

to the idea of what do we do in our society?

One is the area of activism which an activist holds that I'll support my

government and Whatever they say because obviously they know what's going on.

And here I am I I don't I'm not one who has access to the information they do and they have

all these great Organizations we have, you know, whether it's our CIA

CIA FBI whoever so they they have the channels in of

intelligence and and and means to gain then the From the intelligence

community.

I don't therefore I have to completely trust them.

If they say we need to go to war then my job is just to stand up and salute and say yes, sir

and Obey it in order to conduct the mission as they do that.

And so we just acquiesce to government that whole thing is called in For lack of a better

term.

It's known as activism there are of course objections to that because no matter what

country you're in then if you Believe that you believe your government's always right.

And you know, so you got two opposing forces on who's right and who's doing the right thing.

And then it's then you just become a nationalist.

And in that sense there's no control because even if you're in an evil government You fall in line with

the evil leaders.

Just then on the other side you've got Pacifists who believe all wars are wrong and we

should not be involved and you have categories there of resistance etc

conscientious objection and Which is a whole nother category.

Somewhere in there in the middle you have to step aside and say, okay, let's bring some

rational moral Virtuous thinking to this the

the most devastating thing that humanity can do and that is since the

fall of man and Thereafter we've been killing each other and down through history.

Become become pretty good at it in The 20th century saw it on a scale that became

known as the Great War in the World War.

I mean, you know you start looking at World War one and 39 million people were killed

30 million of those being civilians.

Then we get to World War two only 20 some years later and 51 million people are killed in 34

million of those are civilians and that doesn't even include the genocides and since World War two There's been over a

hundred and fifty wars with over 17 to 20 million civilians

killed so it just gets out of hand as it goes on so

It was then through like Augusta and others.

We need to we need to somehow Bring some sanity to what we're doing

or or we'll just follow Bad leadership we need to

discuss this and and so with that in mind Just war

theory then is the concept as I said, there's two categories to it.

Let's talk first of all juice odd Bellum, which is the idea that?

Justification for going to war now this is going to come up in self -defense too because the

justification even for defending yourself.

But let's talk about Defending a nation or defending another nation a third party that you

see is being Bullied picked on or is going to be lose its national sovereignty.

Can you come to their aid?

So with that in mind, there's if you there's about five

criteria and if you wanted to you could look at for instance in the ESB by one of the

handiest is to take the ESB study Bible go to the back under ethics look up war and you'll See

about eight criteria there for just war theory as as they've spelled it out there.

But let me give you real quickly the criteria that are most common for when can you go to war?

Number one there has to be a just cause in other words a Just -cause

maybe as I said to intervene for an innocent third party third country or to

punish an evil aggressor to stop evil or to defend your own nation from

either aggression or overthrow so it's a just cause and in the

idea then it with that in mind is Going then for just cause you want to if you want to

I could give you scripture verses.

But the easiest one is just Revelation 1911 when the Son of Man comes back when Jesus comes at

the second coming we see him return and he's coming to wage war.

And so but there's a just cause.

Number two then is in going to war is right authority with that in mind.

Has a war been declared by proper authorities.

Just wars are not private revolutions.

A just war.

Is not someone who says?

There are several of us in the state of Michigan, Oregon, etc.

And we're going to go on a mass shooting of governmental officials because we feel they're evil.

No, right authority.

Has the in our country?

It's the US Congress has to wage war.

Okay, and so with that in mind there's vigorous debate on Whether or

not we should commit forces to this war the money the resources, etc.

And sends our send our sons and daughters into battle for us.

So it has to be one a just cause number two right authority number

three just intention or the idea would be.

You know, what are we going to war for in somebody sometimes they call this comparative justice

or right intention and so the purpose of going to war then is to

justice and righteousness the with the idea a realizable goal

of peace and Ultimately, it's not to their their just war does not permit you

to go in with the idea of Conquest of taking over land we will

expand.

And we can go Imperialistically and we can conquer and we will expand then.

Our country in other words, we'll take over the sovereignty of another for our benefit.

That's not at all.

It's not territorial conquest.

It's not even revenge as much as back in when after

9 -11 well, we need let's just turn that whole country, you know

into a parking lot.

You can't do that a dirt parking lot at that.

You can't go in and just decide we're gonna nuke a nation because look what they did to 3 ,000 of our people.

In the trade centers actually two thousand nine hundred and seventy seven of them died.

So if we go in with that in mind, you know, you can't just it's got to be a goal of peace.

Okay, and then the fourth criteria is proportionality and that idea then

is Are the potential gains worth the possible

costs and sacrifices of human lives finances, etc, and so You're not

going to go for a Pyrrhic victory.

Pyrrhic went in lost all of his Navy, but he won the war, you know in ancient Greece.

And so the idea is When you're left with nothing, what was that about?

So Proportionality you weigh the costs you weigh the benefits and so this

just cause right Authority right intention Proportionality and then lastly war

is a last resort and with that in mind you use every negotiable and we

do nonviolent means of persuasion To be to attempt whether it's

blockades, whatever it is.

And you give it a reasonable Amount of time and you're going with the right

spirit.

It can't be vengeance can't be hatred.

It has to be with the idea of gaining peace and protection Justice,

etc.

So those are the criteria for going to war in a just war category.

Okay.

Does that make sense?

Absolutely, and you can see there Justin was quickly or Chris was quickly taking notes here and he's put them

all out there.

I'm impressed.

That's.

We have students in the in the audience here being good.

Expecting to do that, but he just found actually I was pulling from the the legal

Us legal comm it actually it's not the same the same exact argument that you're making.

What I found amazing about the argument and about the discussion is both of those.

Both the legal legal argument from US legal comm and what you just said is based on a

Christian worldview.

Yes, it's an atheistic You know anti -god.

Because there is no reason for you to be just in a worldview of chaos.

There's no reason for you to be just in a world view.

It says I should dominate based on my ability to come and take control.

You know, the survival of the fittest does not allow for a just war theory.

So this has to be founded upon a Christian worldview.

There's a there and Justin you raised some really good questions.

We that there's the second part of this then that is known as as we talk about it is

juice in Bellum and there's actually two criteria that can break down into a couple of

other ones.

But one is once you engage in a war the the criteria when talking about

juice in bellow Justice in battle the two major

criteria and and I know others will say well, there's actually four.

But let me just explain the two and they make sense then how you get to four one is simply the word

Proportionality.

Yep.

In other words proportionality in the use of force.

Okay, the idea then is

The You go in Proportionate then to the task or the mission

at hand for it with that in mind then.

In World War two we would do that with when we went to war with Japan for instance.

We we didn't just bomb every island.

We just went to the key strategic ones in that strategy was let you know wither on the

vine.

In other words, why kill unnecessarily?

It's just gonna burn out.

So there's proportionality in other words.

No greater destruction should be caused than the need to win the war and that would be Deuteronomy

20 10 to 12 if you looked at some passages there.

The other part is the most important part and sometimes it's it's known as non

combat immunity or the idea of discrimination between combatants and non

combatants, okay, so proportionality and non combatant

immunity and that is.

Wars are to be waged by soldiers in as much then as it is feasible.

You should as the as the war then is pursued.

Adequate care must be taken to prevent harming non -combatants

as much as possible and and trying to keep from destroying

The land of those people because many of the people in many of those nations

Afghanistan for instance many of the nearly 30 million people of

Afghanistan are not in alignment at all with

radical Islamists.

Okay with with the Taliban al -qaeda, etc.

Those people themselves are finding themselves suffering.

All you have to do is even watch some of the Television reports coming out right now

and you see in the streets of the city the people Protesting only then to hear the gunshots going off and then

they scream and they break up because the Taliban break them up.

But you still want to protect those people.

That's why you don't turn it into a parking lot.

With that in mind, so the idea then is the avoidance of evil and you go into battle with good

faith in other words.

You want to make peace with that nation?

So eventually that nation can be brought into Living

in harmony with the the rest of the world if it if that could be achieved.

So those are the principles for in battle is thinking then.

Proportional combat into immunity and.

And in the military you often hear, you know, we were doing Middle East struggles and whatnot why didn't we just keep on going

and and wipe out the government do everything just take over the nation and in and that was Debated in

our Congress.

They were given here's the overall mission.

We set out to do this and You know after 9 -eleven Bush went to Congress and

president Bush then said here's the mission.

He took a lot of heat afterwards George W Bush for why didn't you keep going

further and his go?

Well, that was beyond the mission and and then we were going beyond then

proportionality, so there we we take this pretty literal as a nation

now the whole thing of In and I have like you can go

on on the internet right now I have a library full of books though that by many people is just war

theory even feasible in a nuclear age.

Number war can just war theory the hottest debate going on today is can just war theory.

Be practiced in an age of terrorism.

Because the word terrorism itself tells you what terrorism is about it isn't about

combatants fighting combatants.

It is it's based on strike terror into the populace.

Okay, you win by fear you frightening people in the submission and the result of that then

if it violates everything about Theory, but should we if we?

Deal with with terrorism.

Can we practice?

Just war theory principles, and I believe we can.

Then there's the whole issue.

Can we use nuclear weapons.

And is that does that fit the criteria of just war theory?

I think on the large scale probably not however I think there there can be

tactical nuclear weapons rather than some of the.

The large -scale nuclear weapons, but just war theory.

You know we went from having Russian United States, I think at one point the United States have just

under or just over 30 ,000 nuclear weapons.

Russia had around 29 ,000 seven I mean

Not yet 29 ,000 right now we have about 46

since 2016.

I think we have about 4 ,600.

Russia has about 4 ,500 and there are right now nine nations that have nuclear

weapons and.

And so you know that raises a whole nother discussion, but okay.

Absolutely well before we bring Matt in and start again some questions.

I think this is gonna be the best time for me to give a word from our sponsors because We may not get you

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So we thank them and with that I'm gonna bring everyone back in.

So all right, you had and I'm gonna put this up for folks.

Two articles that you have one is a karma .org.

And if you just go to karma .org and search the search should a Christian go to war that's an article.

I think it was back in 2008 that you wrote that one but the article that you and I were recently

discussing and you've been going back and forth quite a bit on is this other one and Again, go to karma .org

and just do a search on do Christians have the right of physical self -defense.

It's a article that was put out sometime last month you put that out and

Very lengthy old and New Testament arguments.

So real quick.

Matt, let me give you a chance to do you want to respond with you know?

Because you haven't come on to the show since you've written that argument.

Do you want to go into any detail what your views were with that?

We could do is engage with dr. Berger F on some questions.

Sure, the reason I wrote it is because we have as karma the intergalactic empire that karma

is.

We have some missionaries in Africa.

Well, you got it.

You know, I tell people this is the world.

This is the intergalactic headquarters right here and they're impressed.

We have missionaries in Africa Malawi we have them in Nigeria.

Nigeria's been there a lot of persecution.

So what they're doing is they're taking karma articles of different topics.

They've been going around for months and months years apparently and because my articles are quick I'd

say quick and slick.

They're succinct you get right to the point and Having Bible studies and teaching pastors and then this issue came up

of can we defend ourselves because Christians are being murdered.

There and so I said, okay.

Let me do some research and so I started researching it even more.

And I knew that the article would be used by many people in Africa to

justify whatever the article justifies.

So I'd take it very very seriously very carefully so Long

story short.

I have six a summary of a summary.

We pray for and love our persecutors.

We seek peace with them.

We have the right of verbal self -defense.

We have the right of legal self -defense.

We have the right to flee persecution and we also have the right but not the obligation but the right of

physical force if necessary in order to protect ourselves and or others and

What I analogy I kind of use is you're at your house.

And because this is not a national thing.

This is you know personal What do you do because like in Nigeria then the nation is not protecting the Christians the I don't

call them radical Muslims.

They are true Muslims to go in and kill and that's what true Islam teaches out of the Hadith out of the Quran.

So the radical ones are the ones were peaceful because the Quran teaches the surah 9 teaches killing going out and seeking people destroying

Taking over the world, etc.

Etc.

At any rate.

So, what do they do?

Can they use a knife to defend themselves a gun to defend themselves?

Can they you know different levels of questions and this is why I had to write that and answer different kinds of

questions and Hopefully I did a good job.

So That's what that's the basic we can go in particular Conclusions and stuff.

I went in the Old Testament.

I went into where Jesus has by a sword Jesus drove the people out of the temple.

He made a weapon to do that defend God.

If God's honor what and then what kind of weapons are okay for Christians?

What do you do when a government fails to protect because one of the obligations of the government is to protect its citizens.

So what if it fails to do that?

Then how far do we go?

These are not easy topics.

You don't just solve them.

In one paragraph, you just don't do that, but you can give general principles and that's what I did there

and then you know issues of Aggression against an impending attack, you know, it's I use an analogy

is and I have a friend who's Retired Border Patrol and so he knows a lot about the

laws what you can and can't do and it was we had a good Discussion he gave me some good insights.

And I agree with what he was saying.

So if you're in your home and someone's outside of your home yelling on the sidewalk that they're gonna come into your home

and they're gonna kill you and you have your I have an ak -47 you have your weapon and

So you can't shoot him you're just threatening you're just saying stuff what if he has a gun and

It's it's pointed down at the ground and he's yelling.

He's gonna kill you.

You still can't shoot what if he raises the weapon and pointed at your house and

It's gonna fire.

Can you shoot him?

Then the answer is yes, because it's a Imminent threat where it's going to happen and

you have that right then of self -defense.

Well, then the question then becomes what do you do?

If you see him walking across the street with a gun pointed at you coming at you.

Can you defend your house there by preemptively?

Striking now that you know, that's not so easy to answer.

What do you do if there's 50 people coming down a road and you know?

They're coming at you to destroy you and you can in a narrow pass take them out.

Do you take them out or do you flee?

These are the all kinds of variables and questions and these are the kinds of questions that

The people on the average Christian in Nigeria and Africa and some parts of the other parts of the world

are Facing what can they do?

What can they not do and Those are the kind of question.

Maybe we could talk about some particulars I don't know, but I came up with some conclusions and I don't know if my conclusions are all

right.

But I did the best I could to answer them according to Scripture and don't claim I got it Perfect,

but I certainly tried to make it biblical.

Well, let's let's try to go through some of those right here and and see if you know what we can come up with.

You know, this is a point where I really would like to have where we can kind of just do kind of

panel discussion.

I know we have peel in the background, but just.

They've asked you some questions on some of this stuff Matt.

I know you've had a bunch of questions.

You just raised some so Let me just let the two you I'm gonna actually just let the two you kind of engage a

bit and I'm gonna put Justin And I in the background.

And just you know, Matt, you can you guys go back and forth a bit.

Sure.

Well, let me just jump in.

If I come home and we can just use this and keep going, but if I come home and Someone is in the

process of attacking my wife.

She's across the room I can't reach her before he's gonna kill her and I have my gun on me boom and I shoot him.

That's just because it's protecting of someone else, right?

Correct.

It is.

All right.

And a couple of things you but I I concur with as you're talking and and I haven't had an

opportunity to read your article.

But you're exactly right and the the an Old Testament passage, and I know we

can you know.

You know, there's things in the kingdom, etc.

You know Old Testament Kingdom.

However, there are principles laid out there Exodus 22 1

through 3 you probably use that in your argument.

And that talks about and.

Right after you know the in Exodus 20 Jesus I'm sorry, God gave

to the nation of Israel the Ten Commandments Commandment number six thou shalt not murder

okay, and the term that the word that's used there in Hebrew for murder is rate rate

soft and it has the idea then of The unlawful

taking of another person's life and unlawful, you know.

We were just talking about some of that and that's how it ends up murder.

Never is rate saw ever used for In war

that that Hebrew word is never used in war or defending.

And so a lot of people say what the Bible says thou shalt not kill.

Wait a minute, it says thou shalt not murder.

Okay, and there is justifiable killing and you hit exactly on that.

Even to the point where you said the use of weapons Luke 22, there's 36

through 38 where he's talking about sell what you have if you don't have by

the sword with the intention of what by two if you can and and Jesus

Apostles Apparently carried swords with them.

We know that Peter had one and somebody was short of an ear for a little while, you know, so

so they can and There the use of weapons to

stop someone like you said in that case breaking into the home.

That is exactly the biblical illustration in Exodus 22.

And and that idea that they're breaking into your home.

The interesting thing that is this it says if they're breaking into your home at night and you kill them.

Nothing will be however during the daytime and that's at that point.

Then the idea is you can stop them before harm, but how if they if they

have.

You know it you in other words biblically.

We also see in Proverbs where if there's somebody harming somebody else.

You have to come biblically to that person's aid and defend and even take their

life if necessary.

Lost a microphone there.

I put myself on mute.

Sorry.

I discovered just off what you're saying.

I discovered that there's more scriptures that talk about defending others than yourself.

Yeah, that's that's what I discovered.

And so you have more of an obligation to step in to help others.

No, yeah, and I hit John Piper's put out an excellent article.

You remember that one where said you you know, he would not take somebody else's life and Augustine

felt that way, too.

I Agree with much of what John Piper said.

I know Wayne Grudem it in his article in his politics book on ethics

as.

In his Christian ethics as well as his politics he says I agree with John Piper to a degree.

However, no, he says he I think he didn't go Complete that you need to

defend.

Yeah.

Yeah, someone came in.

I may it never happened.

I don't ever want it to happen ever ever, but because of what I do for a living I have to carry a gun.

Because I've had death threats.

I've been swatted followed in cars.

Satanist.

They're gonna kill us.

You know it all kinds of stuff, but if I came home and I've thought this through it's and you know I've

done martial arts so I can get to a person and stop them.

That's different.

But if I can't get to that person in time or whatever is necessary I had to I had to shoot in my mind here

sitting here.

Yeah, I would what I really went you never know what you can do till you're there, right?

But I think it's perfectly defensible.

Yes, and it's biblically it is.

Yes now, let's say I come home I'm driving in the driveway.

I hear screams coming out of a neighbor's house and the doors open and I

see a woman running out and she's bloodied and she trips and falls and this guy has got a

bat over her and I Just I'm out of the car by then and I see don't stop.

But he hits her once and he's going again.

Boom.

I got to shoot him.

Okay?

That's justifiable because it's an imminent threat of Physical

probable possible physical death and you're you've warned and you stop you stop the threat that's

proportional.

Because it's a death threat there.

So there you go.

All right, right.

Now what if you you know, you got the gun and you're holding it and the guy looks at you.

He stops beating his wife and he comes at you.

Then.

What do you do if you can flee you flee?

But if you can't flee within reason and there's another thing your wife is sitting there with you.

You can't flee because you'll endanger her.

So you tell him to stop stop.

Stop.

He doesn't you know, you know all these variables.

Okay.

Well, what do you do?

As a Christian in Nigeria, for example now we've got the Muslims and.

And Anyway Islam is a world -class Satanic

evil religion and I've debated it many times.

I studied it back on 9 -eleven.

I'll be on a BN sat TV hosting On on Islam with you

some people speakers could be fun.

Anyway, so In that country, they are not allowed to have weapons,

right?

They're not allowed to have guns.

And So but the Muslims as an example have guns and they come in now.

Here's a question can you then go find guns anyway to have a proportional defense and

My answer is yes personally because Jesus says Luke 22 36

by a sword, which is a weapon of it's a lethal weapon at that

time and Because the government's failing to do its job its obligation

you then had to take care of your own as well as as others.

So that what do you think of that?

Well, your problem is going to be the government isn't is never going to in a in a in a Muslim

country like that.

We'll probably still find reason From you have with advising the Christians

there.

They're in a lose -lose situation, right?

They are and and and that is one of the great Injustices that we see

going on in our world right now.

Because even if they.

Because the government in many of those countries themselves are in violation of Romans 13

The government is to protect its citizenry and and and verses 1 to 4 God

Mandates and God even allows those governments the the use of the sword

Meaning the weaponry to defend its citizens.

They have let down the protection of their citizenry and when the citizens

then take it upon themselves.

Because of the government's failure to even think rationally as a government.

Mainly because of their religious ideologies as well that have become perverted on the part of the

governmental leaders.

The people are in some very very precarious Situations even for they defend themselves.

And here's another factor.

Because this is never like this is never black and white.

No in the Islam the I've talked to many people raised in Muslim countries

and They tell me across the board that Muslims respect force

and They believe that if you seek a truce with them and I could give you the history and

why what happened.

But it doesn't matter if you seek a truce with them.

It's because you're weak and so it emboldens them to go attack.

Well, you know, that's part of the Islamic culture.

It actually is it's what's taught in Islam.

Yeah now If you say well, let's just make peace with them by knowing that now you're

encouraging them Unintentionally to attack you.

So the way to defend yourself and stop is to get weapons and be aggressive to the

point of you need to stop.

It sounds weird.

But in that culture that situation it seems to make sense.

Well, they the whole idea of deterrent there.

And that is one of the reason, you know carrying the weapon carrying the weapon the rifle the ak -47

in front Etc knowing that at any time I will use it if I have to.

I'm not advocating it here.

I'm saying in those countries that you know the the problem you're you're

dealing with with the Christians in Nigeria the tragedy that they're

facing is one of is is actually two things.

One We are told by Christ.

We will face persecution.

Okay, so so what can what and we almost should expect that we may

die Unjustly for persecution.

At the same time you've got evil Bullying for

lack of a better term or others who want to take their life which demands self -defense.

So they're there as Christians.

They have to debate the two is this Persecution or is this just hatred?

Do you know what I mean?

Of my nation in my ideal.

My nation's.

You know.

That brings up another issue.

We Christians are allowed to defend but we're not allowed to take vengeance.

Exactly. Exactly.

Yes.

Yeah, and so as and so if this has happened to me

to me because of my testimony for Christ as Distinguished it's take my family or

whatever.

So, you know, there's that conundrum that the modern world lives in

Peter and in 2nd Peter 2 12 where he talks about unbelievers will act like wild

animals and he says that and creatures they act in instinct and he

tells them then that It is morally right then to Defend

yourself just the way David defended himself from an animal when he was attacked by it He killed it.

Peter's making an analogy that you can defend yourself or it carries there's a

syllogism a equals B B equals C a equals C, but it's it's a it's a

really tough line for these folks and.

That is it is and if they practice the biblical principles, they're still gonna find themselves

out in the.

At odds with the government there.

Yeah, and and I.

Well, that brings up another issue because I've written an article.

Well back on January 15th, the Christians duty to obey and disobey government.

Yes.

There's actually an obligation to disobey.

Yeah, we don't disobey because you don't like them.

Now, here's a question, okay, so let's bring this up because I Don't know but you how you are about the Kovat.

I'm doing extensive research on Kovat Vaccines and everything.

I'm doing a lot of research.

It's coming up on the radio show, etc, etc.

At any rate.

Now my opinion is from what I've seen of it what I've just studied.

I don't trust the vaccine just my opinion and if someone's had it I'm not knocking you.

I'm just saying this is just me.

I don't trust it and I don't want to take it.

Now what the government says we want you were mandating as Biden is now doing it today.

He's Mandating that we take it now as they're forcing Essentially an experimental

drug on us now.

Does this fall under the right of self -defense?

To say no, how about that?

When they mandated they can like he said I have if you.

As you mentioned today, you know he said I have the right as a president United States to say if you are

involved in a government and you work for The government in some type of underneath the executive

range.

I can tell you what you have to do.

I think before I would react defensively in that sense of violently.

Retail the idea would be you may have to by by holding

to a view I'm not going to listen to you biblically.

You would face the consequences like Max 529 etc.

Knowing that hey if I do this, I'm gonna I'm gonna lose my job if I work for the government.

Do you know what I'm right?

What do you do?

I Think I think one of the things that would be brilliant to do I mean because we the part of this in this point

is It at least in America is we do have certain laws that allow us a right to do certain things

like a lawsuit.

Right, I think it'd be amazing to see 80 million people in a class -action lawsuit against Biden.

But but we have we have this recourse and you know recently You know, I

mentioned this on on my rap report podcast was the fact that you look at what John MacArthur did at Grace

Community Church.

When he realized he they felt that the the church was being targeted.

They didn't rebel outwardly.

They said okay there are means that are legal this is still fitting within Romans 13.

I actually would argue it was the government that was breaking the law and there they had an obligation.

To go to court and bring this up in court and say we were challenging this and I

think that's the right now.

I would say that would be the route to go with with your question, right?

Well, I have in my list.

I said I said earlier It's pray for the persecutors that number to seek peace with them.

Three verbal defense for legal self -defense.

Five flee flee if you have to and then six use physical force if you have to after that.

One thing you got to notice too is that when you had?

That what was going on in Canada?

The first reaction that you saw so many people saying was let's go bust everything down.

Let's go fight.

Let's go to war and.

As Andrew and I pointed out multiple times That's not our first reaction.

In fact as we use all the just war theory, that's the last resort.

The physical fighting is the last resort.

Based on those criterion what we want to do is use the legal means that are afforded to us and as

Dave just said When we decide to stand up as Peter did and

say you do what you got to do But I'm gonna do this for the glory of God, right?

You also take the consequence whatever the consequence is, but if we're stepping from the area of

personal defense against bad people to defense against a governmental force and.

Those things play a little different.

So we have to recognize.

Okay.

So what about this?

I tell people You know a fusion 612 we wrestled not against flesh and blood powers and principality.

Okay.

Assume this and then put it in place which explains why the zombie crats are

trying to develop a thug occur.

See and I could get that and one of the things that they want to do is Love the terms you come up with.

It's very Pauline

When my spiritual terrace hasn't kicked in right now, so I'm trying to be even politer I want to you

know implications.

It's tough difficult to pray for the president and by Biden and

Pelosi and AOC and Harris and half of the other.

Wonderful people.

Yes, lovely.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, you know, I say Lord if they're not elect you know.

Imprecatorily any rate I believe there's a place to stand up and resist.

Anyway, it's another topic.

Okay.

Now.

I've totally forgot what I was gonna say.

It was really important.

It was gonna be great and it's gone though.

What was I talking about?

Well, we were we were discussing, you know, you were originally starting with the vaccines.

And and so let me let me take with what you said.

I mean, so let me take what Matt started with and go a little further.

So say it's not just losing your jobs.

They're coming house to houses as actually they are doing and so I want to do.

No.

Not that I want to in New Jersey.

They are going house to house in seeing who is Vaccinated.

They came by once.

One of the people in our church came by once just to see have you been vaccinated?

Do you need a vaccine?

We're coming to those who might be homebound the second time.

They were coming through to find out who was vaccinated or not.

So now if they come to the house and they start demanding we are going to vaccinate you.

You you were you know, they're there with the police they're gonna hold you down and vaccinate you.

Self -defense.

Then is there an opportunity for self -defense or not?

Yes, I.

Believe so.

I would use what I could just physically stop them until they had to absolutely force me.

I.

Believe we won't honestly this may be a

Dress rehearsal for something more significant in the next decade.

But I I don't think this particular virus is going to come to that point.

But this is going to start setting up precedence and laws.

Because what's happening right now?

Andrew to your point.

This is going to end up in court is violation of people's

rights in the and so.

The first government employees that start getting fired are going to go and bring lawsuits.

And so this is gonna this is gonna get there out of this are going to come laws.

That next time are gonna be carried further, you know, and they're though and so

people.

Yeah, it won't be about the 80 million this time, but something significant

is going to come.

Yeah.

We could talk off here.

There's there's something called immunity debt and I've discovered this researching so you have a certain

amount of germs that the population gets exposed to in a year and the more you

Isolate and mask the less germs you have the less immunity strength you

develop.

So that after a few years when something comes in that really wouldn't been a big deal now.

It wipes everybody out, you know just out then they shut down the economy and they they go even further

To demand and this is the cycle that's going to happen right now personally because of this I

believe all I remember Ephesians 612, I believe ultimately that this is a demonic movement to

suppress the gospel.

Ultimately, that's what I believe.

And so we I believe that we Christians have the obligation to strongly resist the government strongly

resist these mandates to not riot but to petition to gather to

To protest to To do so I think we should all mail a mask

To the White House every Christian in the country with a note.

Leave me alone or my body my choice nail it to him and because we

because Whoa pre -tribulation rapturism you get out of everything early you get to

go away that churches aren't teaching the pastors aren't teaching you I know you guys do but the pastors aren't teaching what they need to be taught that

Christians are becoming wussified and Apathetic and they're not being

equipped for the work of ministry.

They're being given baby baby talks and diaper Indian theology.

It's another matter slick ism you go to my slick shanary on car.

I'm slick shanary.

You have that I got a new one today.

Rant acoustical rant acoustical.

It's someone we had some in the radio today who said you want to debate me debate me on the radio on People debate me on

the Trinity and I I said, well, you know, what is it?

Defending goes I don't know but it's wrong and I started how I'm laughing.

So he's a rant acoustical he just rants against something.

He doesn't even know what he's talking about.

So anyway, I believe we Christians need to stand up and and if we don't we're gonna lose

our rights.

We're gonna lose the ability to preach that saving gospel.

Ultimately, this is a spiritual battle.

We need to think about it that way that diaper Indian ism.

That's right, Chris and Chris.

I owe him a big.

Thanks.

He saved my rear a few years ago.

I have lost I have lost a lot of faith in in me.

Oh, yeah, I'm sesquicentillion, so it'd be great.

No my faith in large -scale Christianity coming together and doing something significant

has really sort of hit the skids when I.

When we wussed out on abortion and that was something that we really had an opportunity.

And it was before us and we had we had the science.

We had the statistics.

Had the political platforms and we didn't do the legal things.

We could have and why is that because the Christians are too comfortable?

Remote control this and microwave that and air conditioner this and that and they don't go out and have this

weird suggestion Jesus made.

Go out and make disciples of all nations.

It's a suggestion.

It's an idea in the whole bit.

We'll do it later.

Let someone else do it.

This is a problem.

It's a huge problem now.

So really, you know quickly here Andrew and I we don't agree in a lot of stuff.

He has the right to be wrong.

And so we don't agree on I'm on mill.

I think he's free mill.

I'm biblical

Baptist but not for salvation as a covenant.

I'm a consistent covenant list and I believe that the first one's taken.

Yeah I'm.

Yeah, I could trust me I could ask some tough question you said you said two words that don't mix.

Mentalist.

Absolutely.

You are wrong.

I Could get in there and ask you guys you guys would have a good discussion.

I'll ask you guys tough questions, okay.

But the point is that and this is what's really good.

We all disagree on some things but what that's okay.

Well, the majority sure doesn't.

You know, we're okay.

What's that?

I said, we're all doing fine.

And actually I'll say this to what I think about saying is, you know, I've debated Matt slick.

Probably more than any other person that I know.

My wife.

Well Your wife and I agree we

both we both think you're wrong all the time.

Yeah, but it doesn't count and yours is useless.

But the thing is that you and I have debated more topics.

I mean we've debated coming in theology versus dispensationalism.

Gifts of tongues.

Premill all mill post mill.

Chisholm.

We've sure the wicked first.

We've we've debated a lot of different things and the thing though is that we on the core issues we

agree.

There's a lot we disagree on.

We know where they and we don't shy away from who pays for dinner.

I do I Use a history on my side.

The thing is we get along and we can work together.

We have gone out preaching together done open -air together.

We've done things together and that's the point.

And we have to have this cross Denominational essence of what the essentials are so they can rise up as Christians and

fight the real enemy not each other.

That's what has to happen.

That's what has to happen.

I'm gonna respond to Joanne.

She said it's Justin.

Pre to pre trip 100 %.

We we already have man, we just you keep forgetting this.

So.

We'll continue.

Here's the thing I have an idea that I think you know, I've thought about I've talked about it in a radio.

What if We have 26 letters in the alphabet 31 days and 30 days in a month.

What if it excludes Sundays?

What if we?

Everybody like say, you know next year September 1st, whatever.

Everybody in America whose name starts last name starts with the letter a was to get

a sign.

We have an organization and you go to the capital or you know of your state.

If you're too far away, then you go to a town hall whatever with signs and everybody is there

for a few hours.

Everybody all across the United States on the same day and the next day.

They'll let people the letter B go out there.

Of course, you can mix of course and you do this for three weeks and we

have we have an organization a national organization where you join and You pay money to get

into five ten dollars a month so that you can bring lawsuits Against people who

are violating our rights and we can defend the people who are unjustly arrested and accused

and we can Start working for righteousness sake the enemy because you know Jesus even said

it Matthew 12 22 through 32 a house divided against itself will fall and this is the thing we Christians have got.

To be united, you know, I've been suggesting this idea other ideas but the thing is we Chris need to do

something with it are talking about it and and if it comes down to self -defense of vaccines.

If the vaccine is deadly if the vaccine is deleterious if it's whatever we don't know.

Yeah.

Well, actually we're finding out more.

Did you hear that Eric Clapton what happened to Eric Clapton after he took the vaccine?

He lost the use of his hands for a few days.

Whoo.

That's yeah, and we're finding out.

We're finding out that.

These really nice groups called Facebook and Google later.

He's really objective groups.

They're Christians.

Yeah, they're wonderful people they are censoring counter information.

It's very difficult to find proper information and I've been searching this for a long time.

So all this stuff is real we as Christians if we're going to have the right of self -defense.

Self -defense doesn't just mean someone comes into our home self -defense also means

Society is going liberal saying pro -homosexual.

Pro -abortion and we need to defend the truth of God make a whip of cords.

Whatever that is equivalent to drive the people out of the false churches and temples.

But however, we do that and defend the helpless and stand up in unity and do this.

Let me pose a question.

So this Wednesday night teaching first Peter in our churches Bible study.

And that's people can go to striving for your YouTube channel and see that going through first Peter chapter 2 11

17.

In there it talks about submitting to government.

Romans 13 has been challenged debated very much in the last year and a half.

So here here becomes the question this Matt what if

God wants to bring Marxism to the United States to punish Christian churches probably.

Well, okay.

So here's the question then you've just like he brought Babylon in to judge The nation of

Israel and they had 70 years of captivity because of their disobedience Going against

Babylon and I think Jeremiah is one who ends up telling them submit to this he they're

submitting to a Tyrannical government that's gonna put them in the captivity.

Yep.

That is God's will so if if it's God's will I'm hoping it is Not.

I'm praying Lord.

Please be this not be your will but if it's God's will for America to go Marxist

and we were to fight against it.

Then aren't we fighting God's will?

There's what's called a decreed of will the prescriptive will and the permissive will and we could talk about that.

But the thing is that we are to fight evil.

We don't know what God's ultimate decrees are and so our job is to resist evil all the way and consistently

and and Vehemently as men do this, you know, one of the things is we

see these women go into these these these councils these.

You know where they talk about school council school meetings and the women they call them mama bears, you know.

And I like that, you know, that's that's attractive if one had a case trapped on my cold, baby.

But they're sitting there doing all this stuff, right?

I Don't see the men really doing it this much now.

They are a lot of women.

Well, the men are the ones in the church who are obligated to stand up when Adam and Eve were in the garden.

She sinned first the pre -incarnate Christ said to the man.

Where are you?

Didn't say Eve.

What have you done?

He came to the man.

Our obligation as Christian men is to stand up against unrighteousness and I could talk about the women's response into this.

But that's that's the thing we have to fight Marxism and socialism because they're ungodly.

The biblical means the biblical governmental system is capitalist.

Self -representation or representation of groups of others the right of self -defense to do with the land as you want.

It's right Chris.

I worry.

Yeah, sometimes that's right.

I worry a lot of people.

Is I hear I hear all this man, I love you to death.

I hear all this stuff and I'm going man.

It sounds really good in an on millennial perspective.

But from a perspective when I look at I say, okay.

What's Christ doing in his timeline according to the scripture.

As I look at the scripture?

It's amazing how these things fall in line with Christ.

Returning for his bride.

To take his bride now.

The Bible doesn't say that we are going to have no problems and everything's gonna be all Hunky -dory

and then, you know, the Lord's gonna come back.

Take his bride home.

Intense bad things happen.

The Bible says that the bad stuff is going to be all over the place.

It's gonna be you know everywhere and it's clear that way if you just read the Bible.

Consistent.

You go to Matthew 1341 where Jesus says he takes the wicked out of his kingdom.

And he says in Matthew 13 30 The first ones taken before the Christians are the wicked.

I'm gonna get us back on to the wicked who are taken.

We're gonna take it first.

Allow us to go together first.

On the chairs.

I'm gonna ask the same question.

So so Dave.

What do you.

My view means that we look and we do we don't wait to escape?

We work until we until we all hope.

Yeah, I know a lot of people go why worry about it.

We'll get raptured.

Okay, so David let me ask in that same scenario, right?

What do we do if if it is God's will that I mean it to bring Marxism in would

fighting against it be right or wrong?

I mean What kind of will.

Well, I'm asking David now.

He's kind of like one of those wind -up toys.

Once you get him wound up he can't.

It's just tough being right all the time.

You would like.

An ideology such as Marxism or even what we find in CRT that you know, I can

Take some of this back to Marxism and whatnot.

There's there's no way that I that.

Within the same sentence if it be God's will that this happens because God that

I don't see him bringing that kind of judgment or

It is so anti God that God's children in the meantime are to resist that

against it.

Do everything we have at our means to challenge it and point out the evils

that it it is.

Telling an ungodly message and our response needs to be to counter that

at all costs.

Okay in the name of Christ for the glory of God.

We do this because it's right before God not because we want to just be upset and stop somebody from doing something bad.

It must be for the glory of the Lord Jesus Christ that we Christian men stand up in righteousness and be

willing to face the consequences of physical financial Social persecution that's going to come and that will

happen during a tribulation period for instance with oh, it's going to.

That's why you guys Should are gonna know about it.

So so here's the thing here's the thing that I think is often missed when people talk about submit to

government.

When we discuss that and we look at you know, we look at the passage, you know, such as in

first Peter chapter 2 verse 13 Submit yourselves.

For the Lord's sake for the Lord's sake every human institution.

I Think this is the issue I find when it comes to submission to government.

It's that first part that so many people miss they read it as submit to human institutions,

right?

And and they're skipping the essential argument there for the Lord's sake.

We are we submit to the Lord in what the Lord commands us to do now if if God gave

us a word as he did for Jeremiah that there was a judgment coming and Babylon's gonna come and do this

now.

We're in a different situation.

We have God's will we know what it is.

It's clear.

It's written and Therefore going against that's going to be different than going against the

Marxism today.

Which we don't know what the Lord's will is.

We don't know if God is using Marxism to create a revival in the country.

That could be his will we don't know.

So we have to fight evil, but we fight evil not because we're Americans and we have rights.

Right, we fight evil because it is submitting unto God.

We submit the we submit.

The reason we submit to ruling authorities to governments is Because it is an act of submission

to God and this is the thing I think is really missing that I've seen missing

most of the Discussions and debates on this is that aspect that we submit to God first and it's

because we submit to God that we submit to government exactly.

Yes, no.

Unless the government becomes ungodly then we're obligated to resist it.

And if we don't resist it as Christians that it becomes our God.

Yeah.

The American Revolution right there, what was that that that was the basis for the American Revolution.

Which was that the government became ungodly under King George?

Yeah.

Yeah, well, you know that the Puritans are the ones who developed.

At the request of the people they went to the pastors here when they were came over, you know 1600s

develop a godly biblical governmental system and representation and

right of ownership of land self -defense.

And things like this and there's more Witnesses and trials and stuff like that.

They did that and these things have been worked down into our country and this is why we're strong.

Because of the principles that have been there.

Well.

Aren't we Christians?

Obligated to resist evil.

Yes, we are.

Well, then why is it that the Christians?

You know, we hear we fight against it.

We there's different ways of fighting against it.

But the Christian Church as a whole is not doing it.

The Christian Church as a whole is weak and it's anemic and the the the

problem lies at the feet of the of the clergy.

Because they're the ones who have to teach so.

This is where it needs to start and it needs to change and they need to start speaking from the pulpit.

About political issues the idea of separation of church and state and all this idiocy.

That's crap.

It's not biblical.

Every area of life is under the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

Politics included.

I've even said in the radio you can't vote for so -and -so or this person or that person.

That was to say that but I do it anyway if they affirm homosexuality and Abortion, you can't vote

for them because they're ungodly and we're not to support ungodliness.

So I'm neither Republican or a Democrat.

I'm a constitutionalist.

But yeah, and you know, I that's that I believe the Constitution is really a good document.

But anyway Christians need to stand up.

I believe that we're losing ground so fast.

It is sliding down the hill that it's going to take major work from the Christians and just like you were saying Andrew.

Maybe it is God's, you know decreed of will so to speak that he is ordaining this.

Discipline upon the country for the failure of the Christians and I tell people there's two ways to

discipline internally self -discipline or Externally when God works

upon you and the it's the latter that's occurring now because of the failures of the Christians.

We need to repent here at our own hearts and our own minds first and then move on.

Well, let me bring.

You're gonna say some David.

Yeah, I was just gonna mention we I think there's an there's a.

We're at a huge statistical disadvantage and I think we keep thinking that we're still a Christian

nation.

And you know 300.

Yeah, we're 330 some million strong in this country and the total number

of probably born -again Bible -believing Christians in this country is between seven and nine percent.

Which puts us somewhere around 27 million, you know, and since you know the 1960s with the

immigration and naturalization laws that we passed we have become completely Pluralistic.

There's approximately 1270 different religions in this country right now.

We are by definition than a pagan nation and.

Which is a wonderful opportunity for gospel outreach.

Okay, but when you know in other words we have a on a mass scale.

We could be reaching a lot of people so there's there's some real problems already right

there.

So the idea of appealing back to the fathers of this nation.

Well, the majority of people in this country have no idea what you're talking about anymore.

You know what?

I mean?

And so as man said Constitutionalist most people have thrown out the Federalist Papers.

They've never read them.

So, you know, they have no idea what they don't know what they are they don't know what they aren't nor the

the the you know, the foundation of a Christian nation, so it's gonna be.

We're wide open for any kind of an ideological take, right?

Well, actually the blaze says that there's a warning now someplace.

National Archives Records Administration determined recently that America's founding documents may be harmful or

difficult for some users to view So the Declaration of Independence the Constitution the Bill of Rights or

have warning labels on.

So why is this the case.

Because the devil wants to destroy Christianity doesn't want the gospel preached.

Yeah, we're probably the most organized Christian nation in the world, although Africa there's

they're in larger number and even in China.

But we're we have yet the resources the Christian resource.

And that's one thing I'll say is is that we have internally in the church we have

False teachers.

We have false doctrine.

We have false theology.

We have we have all types of false things going on in the professing church.

Not the actual church, but the professing church and and you know, what you're saying Matt is is

is right.

What you're saying Dave is right.

That is why I'm you know, I want to I want to go ahead and plug that Shepherds Theological Seminary

these guys are are trying with all of the fibers in their being to push back against the

tide of critical race theory the the liberalization and the socialized

Ideologies that is coming into the Southern Baptist Convention.

To to the false teaching that it's going around and they're trying to push back against that tide to say look

we can have biblical God glorifying men and women not and it's not just

pastors that are going to be taught at STS, but the majority of pastors that are being

taught there are being equipped to Stand against that time and that's what we need to be

doing.

That's where we need to be.

I want to encourage everybody go check it out.

If you have any ideas.

Yes.

Shepherds that edu is the is that.

So let me bring Ron in.

He's been backstage this whole time.

Ron for folks is someone you've seen.

He where he is makes comments.

He's usually here in the background.

And so the first time coming in and I know we had Pedro in earlier.

Pedro's always Comes in and always has trouble connecting and then drops out.

But Pedro if you're still there if you got a question you can ask online.

So Captain Black Eagle aka Ron

welcome.

I Know that you're a regular in our Christian apologetics group.

But you had some questions that you wanted to bring up earlier.

I know I told you we were gonna want to get some this discussion out.

So what were some of the questions that you had?

Are you there?

Oh, maybe he's not there.

You got raptured.

Yep.

No, because the rest of us didn't met.

No, that's a good.

See YouTube.

I know nobody else is around.

So here's the deal.

First of all, I spent 20 years in the military.

Thank you.

I've listened to everything you guys have said and you are absolutely 100 % correct.

If it was not for the Christian worldview.

The things that I would have done in the military would have me living in hell right now.

The question I had for you and this is a complicated question I used to teach use of force

when you can use force when you can't use force and to what extreme you can use force and.

Here is the question that I always pose to my classes.

You're sitting here in the room.

Somebody comes in through the door and they have a pipe in their hand.

They hold the pipe in the air and they say I'm gonna blow everybody up in this room.

Can you shoot them?

The normal answer was I don't know.

I'm like it's already too late to make a decision.

Yes, and even if you shot him and they let go of that bomb and it still went off.

You would still be in the same situation, but you have to make a choice you can.

It's an instantaneous choice.

It's not something like well, let me talk with my friends to say what they think.

You've got to do it right away.

Is that wrong?

To pose that question.

Shoot the bomb.

Is it wrong to pose the question or?

Yeah, you should never pose a question like that ever again.

You know.

Is is that.

Can I ask a question when you use that illustration.

Was the pipe he was holding.

Was it.

Did you describe it as an active bomb?

Yes, no, and I didn't do it because you'll never know if it's an active bomb.

Okay.

Is that's that's what I was my answer was gonna involve just that I was.

My answer would be that I first have to believe.

If it's a if it's a pipe where I can see both ends are open.

Then I'm not believing it's a pipe bomb.

I have to believe it's a real bomb so if I believe.

So my answer would kind of be complicated in the sense I don't think it's as simple as a yes or no because I don't have enough information

in the hypothetical to answer.

So I the first thing I'm gonna have to decide is is it a genuine threat that I think that

more than just myself.

Are going to be harmed by whatever he has.

I know the liberals will say you we shoot him in the hand.

Because that way he doesn't know for simple for folks understand.

Trying to shoot someone in the hand or in the leg in a split second is very very

difficult to do.

There's a greater chance. You'll miss and harm someone else in in a crowded room.

You go for the largest massive body, which is the center part of the body, which is why you would shoot there.

So I would shoot there.

So I guess Chris on holds is saying shoot shoot the bomb Matt.

You got it.

You got it.

Yeah, I think the closest illustration is what we learned like in the military for instance that I would

not.

Not knowing if this is c4 or whatever you're dealing with.

Remember.

And we even awarded men medals for this some most often posthumously.

Consider it in the area like that's a grenade.

So what do you do?

Somebody sacrifices their life for the sake of the others and that's where I was going to go with the question

with the answer from a Christian perspective and a law enforcement perspective here.

My my duty is to defend life to defend and protect them it's it's it's almost

the same realm when you're dealing with Firearms and you're having to shoot somebody or not.

You have a group of people come in and they're they're shooting up whatever area which happens.

How are you justified in taking their lives the questions asked constantly because Christians want to know

I Look at it from this perspective.

I'm not Doing this to take a life.

I'm doing this to stop taking a blife and I'm doing it.

You're exactly right for the gospel sake and here's why I say that if I can stop the bad guy You

guys got the pipe bomb and if I can if I can get to that I'm and cover myself with it.

I know where I'm going guys, right?

I have no doubt that God I'm going to have Christ saved my soul.

I was a wicked vile sinner.

God saved me.

I wasn't looking he found me.

He saved my wicked soul.

I am now obligated to be the man that's going to stand on that pipe bomb.

Like you like they've just said this is a grenade no matter what condition it is.

I'm jumping on it.

The bad guys come in the door.

I'm going to stop them if I can not to take their life.

I Want to clarify this this is not to take a life.

This is so that all the other pagans in the community can see that I have died

to the glory of God to serve Christ for the gospel and Andrew can come along and say you know why he just did that

because of Jesus Christ and you need to know Christ is your Savior but you were given another moment.

That's folks for folks listening.

Let me just emphasize with you and David why the distinction made there is.

If you have a grenade or a pipe bomb, okay.

Shooting a person does here's the question ends up having to be asked and I think this is what Ron's probably getting to.

Does that stop the destruction?

No in in fact Shooting them depending what it is.

If it's a grenade and they already pulled the pin shooting them guarantees that it's probably gonna go off it enhances

it.

It is pressurized trigger.

Yeah, so so the the thing is you're you're it's not always as simple as just

One or the other.

Because there's a lot of things that you have to take into and and for folks that are listening us.

This is what we're hoping you will get through with sound like this.

This is the we've said this throughout the show.

You've heard it by by Dave.

You heard it by Matt.

These are not simple things.

These are complex things.

It's not always a simple answer and there's a lot to be looked at with this and therefore one of the things that

really bothers me lately with Christians online is The the

attitude of if you don't agree with me you just support evil there's a lot of complexity

in these issues and It's you need to take the time to understand why?

Someone comes to the conclusion that they come to do not just say that well if you don't agree with my conclusion.

Well, maybe they didn't think of the things you thought about or maybe you didn't think about the things they thought about.

Let me just tell you Matt wrote this article on karm.

And I I think I think man I'm just going from memory, but I would say half dozen to a dozen people

that were on the Review list that we're going through giving comments and I talked

about it.

Yeah, and and you know, so we Matt doesn't just write these articles and puts Matt.

There's there's a bunch of us that get in on this and he bounces ideas off things.

Then he writes things and bounce and then there's people who say hey, can you review this?

Why because all of us have a different perspective on things.

We need to look at that and not just accuse people being wrong right out the bat.

Yeah, no, just kind of my soapbox, but Ron, let me go.

I didn't know if you had more questions.

But you know, that was the actually the whole reason we asked the question it wasn't you know, are you right

or wrong?

It's what would you do?

And that's what you guys need to talk about is what will you do if that ever happened?

It's like when you shoot somebody why are you shooting them center mass?

Because if you shoot them in the hand, you can still kill them the shooting of someone at

least from a military perspective.

Was always what got you in trouble if you shoot at someone with no reason.

Then you're going to go to jail if you shoot at somebody for a reason.

But then you shot well, for instance at their arm and you miss and you kill kids in a schoolyard.

You're gonna go to jail.

It's not an easy question and most of it isn't.

War is not an easy question.

But I do appreciate the answers you guys have given.

It's perfect.

Thank you.

You have any other questions or for us tonight?

Oh, there's so many for Dave.

We're talking, you know theory of war.

I Look back at Jonathan when Jonathan is standing on a hill.

Coming down that hill killing Philistine's left and right his father Saul is hanging out in a

bunker.

Trying to see figure out what's going on.

Jonathan has confused the enemy so crazily that they're killing each other.

That's what we're supposed to do.

We're supposed to confuse The Satan worshipers and the heretics out there already

in power.

They're called Democrats are very confused.

Jumping in the same boat true.

But if that's what it's about, it's about confusing the enemy getting them going after each other not us

going after each other.

That's all I got.

That's right.

You guys did great.

I really enjoyed it.

Dave did you want to comment on that at all?

No, okay.

So let me just piggyback off Ron what you said, you know, Matt.

If anyone hasn't figured out Matt is crazy, but let me give one example of his craziness.

He decided not to go to town Dallas, Texas to debate one atheist.

But two atheists two separate nights on two separate topics, so they only had to prepare one debate.

He had to prepare to not a smart thing.

He handled both from brilliantly and won both especially when his.

The guy he's debating the second night like actually he was like, let's not do a cross -examination.

That's how you know, someone lost.

Then he goes on his own show for two hours saying how he won.

No you lost.

He got upset.

He did several videos.

I found out.

Oh, yeah.

I want to get down there to Austin.

I want to get a church down there having come down.

I want to do a thing on on atheism and Have some debate discussions with atheists.

Anyway, let me ask you a question if I may.

This this is about you.

And this is the first time we've had a no.

No, it's a good one.

To me are all of your articles and things you've written or at least recent.

Are they on calm org, uh -huh the sites.

Almost 26 years old have written probably five six.

I don't know thousands of articles and I have a few other thousand.

I haven't even released yet.

We also have other Helpers and stuff like that.

But yeah, yeah good search engine to find them.

Uh -huh.

Yeah, and like, you know, I get a little obsessive.

I wrote a hundred and eighty -two articles on Annihilationism a little assistive just a little

and so I when I study something I just dive in and I believe it or not I'll just say this people know I have

Asperger's and so there's this there's.

Advantages advantages.

One of the advantages is I can remember patterns numbers and I can be really obstreperous.

No, I Can confirm that I'm anxious to read because I've written in the area of

annihilationism.

I'll look that up.

Thank you.

Oh, yeah, I got good arguments against it and calling out some people on by name who are teaching some

damnable heresy inside of annihilationism physicalism and.

Better topic.

Here's the thing Matt when you when you did that you we did those debates down there in Dallas you and I went Down there.

I don't know if you remember this but there was a and I don't even remember there was some there was an atheist.

That was online.

Something had happened that within Christianity we'd say that disqualifies them from you know from being in

what we call ministry, right?

And it was interesting because when we were there we had a lot of Professing atheists there and I you went out to dinner.

Oh, yeah.

We yeah, but but I had the same birthday as me.

I remember that weird, but there was there was I was asking many of them about that individual who

You know basically had an affair and different things and it was interesting because.

The overwhelming response was they would they would ignore it.

They would if they recognized it is wrong, they would justify why he should still should be a

have a platform and things like that and There was one guy and I think you'll remember this.

We spent a lot of time with him Cowboy hat.

I'm not gonna give a name.

He used to be a regular on the show.

But he he actually said when I asked him he said look Andrew, I like you guys I like you

I like Matt.

But here's the thing.

He's doing a great job for our side and it's not about what he does in his personal

life.

It's about beating Christians and and I remember after that we went to dinner and and we were

talking about that and We realized this guy understands what Christians should be doing.

Is that we should be recognizing who the enemy is and it's not each other.

It's it's not let's have all our squabbles on Facebook and public so everyone could see they

they're actually unified in the idea of attacking an enemy and.

And this is one of the reasons I think so many Christians don't really like why are we losing these things because they're very

clear.

And what their goal is to put an end to Christianity.

We're not so clear in spreading the gospel.

Notice the difference there are.

Our objective is not to put to put an end to atheism in the sense that we got to wipe them out.

It's spread the gospel so that they they know the truth.

There's a big difference between those two.

And so I think that's the the thing that I with this particular topic

Romans 13 submission to government man.

I have seen more division on this subject.

That you know online and elsewhere that is quite disappointing.

Because people want to be able to have something to give them an excuse to not be responsible.

Submit to the government.

Don't think don't do don't worry.

Just submit that means I can go about my business.

I have to worry about anything.

But true Christianity is not easy Christianity.

Jesus has pick up your cross and follow after me on a daily basis.

He said if you don't do this, you're not worthy of me.

Go out into this into the world make disciples of all nations.

I personally don't understand how any Christians real Christians consider out and do nothing when people are going to hell

now.

I'm not saying every mom who's pregnant got three kids on the floor, you know has to go out and do evangelism.

Of course not.

But we have certain callings and certain abilities and certain things that within our context that God has given us and equipped us to do.

And and another thing is that we need to be ready to make mistakes.

Too many Christians are afraid to mess up.

You know Andrew you and I have preached we went out to that place in New York.

You're Union Square Union Square and I remember that and you know.

No one speaks perfectly and I remember good.

I don't know if I messed up or not.

But I you know what I don't care.

I get up.

I'm gonna talk and we do the best I can and we have to not be afraid to take chances and take risks.

I was on a daily show.

It didn't work out.

So well, they did but in other areas it does work.

We have got to be as Christians take chances and go forward.

That's why I like to hear stories of failures as well as successes because failures are also successes.

Because we're doing something.

I believe we need to trust God and go forward and that we can because we have that banner.

We have the Lord Jesus Christ.

We have the power of that gospel and he wants us to do that.

And if we're in his will and we're preaching that gospel and doing what he desires.

Then he's gonna open up the right doors at the right time the right way.

It's his job not ours to open up those doors.

Ours is just to go through them to be obedient.

One of the things that has been refreshing for me right now, I'm teaching a course

in an advanced course on patristic theology and Just camping in the first five

centuries and many of the students have not had anything like that in history or theology

and the thing that as you read the epistles the the number one theme James

was writing to Christians in his epistle on how we now live an

early Christian Church.

But Peter writes what it is to be a Christian living in an alien culture.

And you'll start to see that as you start to read the Apostolic Fathers that first that

they're the first Generation after the Apostles and they cover the first and second generation.

So you got letters like first Clement second Clement.

They're not at all inspired and you can see the drop -off right away and spirituality from them

but the thing that you notice is they would write in some of them are very weary and tiresome to read

through but The theme that they were trying to deal in the first 50 years and

then in the next 100 years and then in the next as we go in through the these the apologists and then

they we went through the I mean we come with the Apostolic Fathers then the apologists and then the

polemicists and then we get to the theologians that what they're dealing with is

Christians became comfortable in the cultures they were.

Living in this has been the plague of Christianity the

acquiescence to culture for 20 centuries.

And that were Today in in the the world in which we live the

modern world we we we as as you mentioned Andrew and Matt's been talking

about just brought up and that is we look at America and we expect our

government and we expect it to give us.

We are for Christians we we've joined the culture we are old these this is my

rights.

And it comes down, you know where I'm going with this.

Yeah, you know one of the things though also and I remember you teaching this in one of either church history one or two I

forget which one and I'm gonna show how much I actually paid attention and remember it.

But you you always talked about these periods of a pendulum swing where there's

always the the pendulum it swings out one way and people go to this and then it

swings back and.

And how we're always seeing that in church history in our in the theology and you know.

My prayer is that maybe with you know, everything going on and I actually think that

Joe Biden has done more Than Donald Trump ever could in waking up

Conservative Christians to say oh.

Like all of the things I was taking for granted are being taken away.

Look, it's time for me to actually take my faith serious and do something about what I say.

I believe.

Hey, and you know what?

It's only taken eight months.

Yeah.

Imagine what's gonna be like in three years.

Yeah.

Look how far we have slid away.

Yeah months, which means If you want to use the Old Testament term

sleeping, you know on the wall and.

And we have a we have a very very complacent lethargic Christianity right now

and I think we're on the verge of people becoming very serious in

the pew because they're now Experiencing it at work and the first and and let's go back to

the kovat vaccination for a moment for the first time.

For many of them.

It's like wait a minute.

I have to think do I?

Do I what what do I really even believe in something now that?

Is striking my family and me yeah, yeah, and so it's not their

Christianity being shaken yet.

This is we're this is just a you know, it's starting to experiment for many of them.

Well, you know.

Years ago.

I won't give all the details and it wasn't bad or good.

It's just how life is.

I didn't make a decision and the decision to be as godly and forthright.

According to my character my heart before God.

I knew it was going to cost me a great deal.

It was the loss of a ministry over it and I stuck with what I thought was right before God.

I'm gonna tell you it cost a great deal and it did and It took years

actually decades for my wife and I to financially recover from stuff.

But God somehow provided through all of it a lot of times.

Christians think You know these morons on TV with the perfect hair perfect teeth and all

this stuff, you know God wants you healthy wealthy and all this idiocy.

You know.

They think this is what we deserve because Jesus is the blonde -haired blue -eyed Caucasian surfer dude dressed on a woman's nightgown.

And so this is who they think Christ is and it's just not the way it is when you live for Jesus.

There's gonna be persecution.

God has granted that we're gonna suffer.

Philippians 129.

Not that we want to but it's gonna happen and we need to be willing to to to move forward and it's a

reward.

It's a blessing.

It's a blessing in this.

I've been through it.

It's a blessing.

Yeah, we're alien strangers pilgrims.

Walking we are light in a dark world and we are being opposed and

Persecution and why that surprises people now and it's shot.

They're shocked and it's like this.

This is what?

God said you need to expect.

Christ told us this was coming and they hated me.

They're gonna hate you.

Yeah, you know one thing I want to point out.

I'm gonna let you finish up and then we're gonna close out the show.

We are at a two -hour mark.

I like to end on time.

I know our audience hates that and they like us to go longer, but we did promise Dave we do go two

hours and You know cut him loose and let him be able to to get to his family.

But you know, so why don't you finish and then I'll wrap up the show.

Okay, well one thing I want to point out is that we're talking about just war we're talking about self -defense and whatnot.

The ultimate self -defense is the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Because every single one of us are gonna stand before a holy God and I don't care what you do.

You're not going to make it out of this world life.

You know, it doesn't matter what we do.

We're not going to make it out of this world life.

And so when we're Having these debates.

It's among Christians a family a family -friendly debate the discussion.

But to seek to understand how we should live and act and as all of us have said here The most important

priority is the gospel of Jesus Christ.

So if you don't know Christ as your Savior and Lord if you die right now what's gonna happen.

I'll tell you you're gonna stand before a holy God you're gonna stand before a holy God in judgment under the wrath and

condemnation that you deserve because All liars will have their part in like a fire.

No thief or blasphemer in the kingdom of heaven and you and I every one of us.

We've violated and offended a holy God.

It doesn't matter how good you are how bad you are.

It doesn't matter if you're Taliban or if you're Joe Biden, it doesn't matter if you're anyone in Anything in between

when you stand before a holy God, what's it going to be like?

You need Christ as your Savior because he's the only one that can tell you why we have a just war theory.

He's the only one that can consistently tell you what it means to be holy and right in the sight of

God He's the only one that make you right through the gospel through his sacrificial

sacrifice on the cross for you.

Now if you know Christ is your Savior, what should you be doing now?

Should you be preaching against the government and everything else to a point?

Yes, but your main sermon had better be.

Everyone needs to know Christ.

Everyone needs Christ.

It doesn't matter who you are.

That's where our churches have failed.

We need to get pick up that cross and follow it today.

And this was the thing Justin that you and I tried to bring up several times.

When we've dealt with some of these issues with folks is the fact that the gospel is the issue.

We are we submit to God first and then government and if we don't get that order, right?

We're we're gonna be woefully wrong in in the application because what's gonna

be is we're gonna let our pride make the decisions what we want to be right and.

We need to submit to God first now.

I know that for some folks you.

This we've we've just kind of opened the can of worms, right?

We've just kind of peeled back a little bit of the onion.

This is the thing with this.

This is not easy to work through.

Justin you you just heard what class you should be taking there at the seminary.

That's next semester.

You better sign up for that.

But but seriously this there's so much involved in this even with with Ron's question that he asked.

It's it's you asking a question because there's not a clear answer.

There's a lot of questions.

You need to get answered first before you can answer something.

So the the challenge with this as a way of application when it comes to apologetics.

You need to think through the issues.

You can't just come to quick conclusions because you feel it's right or you read one scripture verse and that answers

everything.

One scripture is enough as long as it's within context.

However, the issue is.

Is that applied properly to the situation you're in?

There's a lot more that we usually have to take into account when we look at these things a lot of people are taking knee -jerk

reactions on what to do and What bothers me the most that you know, I go back to what

what was occurring back with Jim Coates up in there in Canada.

And people were saying that his he was wrong.

You know saying that you know, there were those that agreed with the way Arthur Pulaski was handling things.

There were people agreed with the way Jim Coates handled two very different ways of handling it.

You know, but the question is and this you go back to first Peter to 11 to 17.

What's he doing?

He's talking about your you know, our holiness our testimony submitting to government.

There's more to submission to government than just whether we submit or not.

We we answer to a higher calling as Christians.

We have to be good ambassadors for Jesus Christ.

And so when we do things we are to do it to represent Christ.

Well, in fact to the point where Peter says there I think it's verse 15.

Yeah, verse 15 for such as the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of

foolish men.

That's right.

That's the thing.

It's not about us promoting our rights.

It is about us Promoting Jesus Christ and letting him shine even

maybe in a dark time.

That's a hard message and I understand that but may it be an encouragement to you to know that

many many many believers have gone that same path before us and

Have done right and silenced the mouth of the ignorant.

And so when we're answering these things, or you know, maybe we need to say are we submitting to God in this?

What what's our purpose in in our view whether to submit to government or not or how would this specific issues and.

And and ask you the question.

Are we?

Gonna be in our behavior.

Getting people to say oh look.

That's just a prideful Christian or are we gonna get them saying you know what?

I got nothing to say.

Look at how they're.

So it's for us to think about until next week next week.

Justin I'm trying to look at what we got on the schedule here for next week.

I believe we have.

Next week is the that's right.

Next week.

We have Justin Peters coming in.

We're gonna be doing a response to Sam Storms article.

Sam Storms did an article.

Basically saying that you should or could sing Bethel music and Hillsong in your churches

as folks here know Justin has been against that and we're gonna let Justin give a response that and May

pick up some other topics that we may discuss but I hope you come back next week for

that remember to Strive to make today an eternal day for the glory of God and we'll see you next

week.

Bye night.