The American Churchman: Cancer and the ABCs of Dealing with Worry

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00:29

And welcome once again to the American Churchman podcast, you'll notice I made a mistake already.

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This is a great way to start a podcast. And I played the old theme. So maybe some of you got a little sentimentality and recognize the vintage theme that I haven't played for about a year.

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But it was in my folder and it must have been right next to the new theme. So there you go.

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But we still we will carry on. We will prevail here. We are actually going to talk about a

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TruthScript article. So hearkening back to the TruthScript Tuesdays here, even though it is the American Churchman podcast.

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And I just want to remind everyone before we talk about this TruthScript article that we are a 501c3 at TruthScript.

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If you ever want to support what we're doing there, we would definitely appreciate it.

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You can go to truthscript .com for more information on that. Just scroll to the bottom. And we also have a conference coming up in Pennsylvania, April 25th through 26th,

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Christianity and the Founding, Christianityandthefounding .com. And if you want to publish with us, there's a way you can do that.

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Just go to the publish tab and you'll click on that and see all our guidelines. And we really appreciate that.

01:38

We found some really good contributors. So with that being said, we have a special article today by Pastor Mike Abendroth called

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Cancer and the ABCs of dealing with worry. And it's really just a chapter from his book on this particular topic.

01:52

And I want to introduce Pastor Mike Abendroth to the podcast for the first time. Welcome. Pastor Mike Abendroth John, I'm super glad to be on.

02:00

I think we've known each other for what, maybe 10 years and we're still friends. Yeah, we text each other now and then.

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I think the last time it was mostly pictures of your grandkids and pictures of my daughter, but those are the important things, right?

02:13

And I've appreciated your support and friendship and well, encouragement, really.

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And I actually I have right with me so the listeners can see your latest book, which is Law and Gospel, a primer.

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And I should mention, too, you are you are a pastor. You are a pastor of Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston, Massachusetts, if anyone lives near there.

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And NoCompromiseRadio .com is where people can get your podcast. So, well, thanks for those.

02:42

I'm in central Massachusetts, John, north of Worcester. And I've always thought it was funny because the name

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Bethlehem Bible Church, it reminds me of the story in England and how, you know, the

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English and the New England people contract words and just make them shorter. And so there was an insane asylum in London, I believe, in the 1600s, and it was

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St. Bethlehem's. And the crazy stuff that would go on at that asylum, they would talk about it.

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And so they contracted the name from Bethlehem to Bedlam because what went on inside of there was like Bedlam.

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So sometimes I feel like not because of the congregation, but because of me, the pastor, I pastor

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Bedlam Bible Church. You know, one of the interesting things about you is you're kind of like, so you're in Massachusetts.

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But if I met you for the first time somewhere else, I wouldn't take you as someone from Massachusetts necessarily, because I don't know, there's like a lot of California in you or something.

03:43

I don't know if that's what it is. You go to California quite a bit, right? Because isn't that where like your family or your wife's family is?

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Yeah, I moved here from California in 97, had lived there for a long time, originally from Nebraska.

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My wife's from Santa Cruz. My four children and my three grandchildren are all in California.

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So I go back quite a bit. And kind of for this Americana show today, I wore a shirt, like a cowboy shirt, a

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Texas shirt. So. Oh, we match. Uh -huh. See, funneling

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California to Nebraska to Texas. Yeah. Oh, wow. That's great. Yeah, I didn't notice, but that yeah, it does have the square cut or what are they?

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Yeah, that's, that's very cowboy. Yeah. But you know, you did, you know, it's funny here in New York, obviously not the place that you would think of for Western where they opened in Wappingers right near my dad's church, a boot barn.

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And you walk in and you feel like you're in West Texas. It is the weirdest thing to me.

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And everyone's like wearing cowboy boots and cowboy hats and they're playing country music. And it's like, where am

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I? They opened a boot, they opened a barn here as well, John. I like boot barn a lot.

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Here's the quick story about that. It was during COVID and I picked out some nice boots. We were going to go see a concert, a

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Charlie Crockett is the guy's name. And my, my daughters really loved the style that he has and all that.

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So the guy in front of me was a fireman and he was given a large discount because he was a first responder.

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So I got up there and I was just talking and I said, well, I'm not a first responder technically, but I am a pastor and I have to deal with a lot of folks like that.

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And I just smiled and they said, you get your boots for $99 too. So ever since, ever since then,

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I've been a boot barn fan. I'm going to use that. I'm going to try to use that at least. Um, I mean, maybe I can as well.

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I mean, I'm pursuing eldership right now. Uh, I don't know if I told you that, but, uh, so that, I mean, maybe, maybe once the process is complete, then

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I'll go pick up my new pair of boots and I'll say, Hey, look, Pastor Mike Abendroth told me I get 99 bucks here.

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Um, I have a black pair and a brown pair and that's all I wear for dress shoes is cowboy boots.

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So, you know, well, the Lord in his providence brought me out to Massachusetts. And I think

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John, what had happened was my style and my personality is I'm pretty blunt and pretty direct.

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I think I've probably gotten kinder over the years, but I just think men should talk directly. And, and, uh,

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I moved to California and people didn't really know how to deal with me. I'm sure if I went to Georgia, I'd get kicked out of churches, but in new

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England, it's perfect because they're blunt. You don't get stabbed in the back, you get stabbed in the chest.

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And so I'm blunt and the Lord in his providence knew exactly where to put me 28 years ago.

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Amen. Well, I want to talk about, uh, some of the other experiences that you've had in life. We had some comments coming in and I would just encourage people as they're listening.

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If you have questions for Pastor Abendroth, please get them in, whether it's on YouTube, let's see,

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Facebook or X that's where you, where I'll see them. Uh, but Isaiah, uh, Isaiah Cooper, I don't know if you recognize that name says he likes your stuff and, um, no drama mama.

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I don't know who this is exactly. Cause there's someone behind the account, but they like Charlie Crockett too. So there you go.

07:03

All right. Let's talk about, um, let's first talk about the article at truth script. So this is a, an abbreviated,

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I guess, form of a chapter in your book on cancer.

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And this comes from a very deeply personal place with you. It's not abstract. It's not even from experiences of others.

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It's from your own experience. So maybe why don't you walk us through that a little bit and how that, um, how that landed when you got that diagnosis years ago.

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And then, um, and then we can get to how you thought through this theologically. Sure.

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Well, we would all agree when we'd read the scripture, Psalm 103, the

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Lord is sovereign overall. Uh, we understand that God is not just a prophet, uh, not just a priest, but also a

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King. And I think we intellectually, theoretically, we understand God's sovereignty.

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And if you read Lewis Berkoff or Calvin on Providence, you think, okay, I understand that.

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Then when you go through a trial and I know everybody listening and watching has gone through a trial, it might not be cancer.

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Then it's really, uh, more experiential and it's, it's, it's real in a sense.

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So it was 2015, John, I got prostate cancer diagnosis.

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And then it was about three years ago, I got leukemia diagnosis. So two times they've said to me, you have cancer.

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And I'm not trying to joke around when I say this, but the second time they say it's easier than the first, because you've already kind of processed it all.

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And I mean, I, I've written a book on the sovereignty of God. Um, I've written books about assurance and yet I still struggled with this every day for probably 18 months.

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I woke up and the first thought in my mind, you know, back to the old joke, instead of, uh, good

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Lord, it's morning, good morning, Lord. But for me, it was, I have cancer.

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And prostate cancer is even to me worse in the sense that it's dealing with sensitive areas of the body and all this other stuff.

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And I just thought, Oh brother. So I thought, how could I worry so much? I know worries the opposite of trust.

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I know worries of sin. I know I can trust my father. If he's given me the Lord Jesus, he'll give me everything else

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I need. Romans 8 .32. But it was a fight. Uh, it was a battle of me trying to repent and work through all this.

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And then I thought, John, if I struggle with that, and I'm not trying to say I'm anybody, but I'm just saying

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I as a pastor and a leader struggle with it, other people must struggle too. And so I think between the book of Hebrews and those experiences of having cancer and then not doing what

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I wanted to do in terms of my godly responses, uh, I think it's really softened me and helped me try to come alongside and pastor people.

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And certainly I don't want to tell them it's right to sin or it's right to worry or don't trust the Lord, but I know, and I understand the suffering.

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And then it makes Hebrews 4 all the more wonderful when we have this sympathetic high priest who knows and who cares.

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And so I just thought I'm going to try to write a little book to try to put in people's hands, uh, when they go through cancer, how can they think about it from a

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Christian perspective and from a kind perspective, instead of bashing people over the head, how can you call yourself a

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Christian and worry this is more, do you know what Christian, I know you worry, we're realist, we don't want to worry and how can we repent and trust the

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Lord? So the first thing you say is that, uh, in a, uh, admit that anxiety and worry are sins.

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And I, I'm curious about this because, um, you know, when, when you are someone who is anxious or worrying, perhaps you don't realize that that's what you're struggling with.

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Maybe you're self -aware. I know I've had this experience. Um, recently

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I got this blood test done. That's supposed to tell you kind of where you're at physically. And one of the things that it showed was that I'm too stressed and aging at a quicker rate than I should.

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And so I need to calm down. I need to, uh, stop working as hard. I don't know what it is, but I wouldn't have thought that I would have thought, no,

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I mean, I'm just working. That's, that's all I'm doing. I'm not doing anything that's, uh, out of the norm and anxiety can be like that where you have a legitimate threat like cancer.

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And like, isn't it normal to worry about that? I guess is my question. Where's the separation between recognizing the threat and then going into a sinful mindset.

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Sure. Great, great clarification and follow -up. Uh, the Lord talks about anxiously and eagerly awaiting, uh, his return.

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Of course, that's not sinful anxiousness. Uh, Paul is concerned about churches in Corinthians where he's just trying to deal with what they're going through.

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And he's got the weight of, uh, and the pressure of the church concern there. I don't think that's sinful, but I think when

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Philippians four says, be anxious for nothing. Uh, the way that I always talked to my daughter about it was a sweetheart.

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What's the opposite of worry? And she'd say, trust. Sometimes she'd say trust.

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Like, is that the right answer to head? And I'd say, yes. And so we are to trust the Lord. Proverbs says with all of our hearts, and that's not a divided heart.

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And sometimes worry is, is defined by this division that we have in our thoughts. And so I'm to trust the

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Lord with my whole heart. I'm not to lean on my own understanding. I'm to acknowledge him in all my ways and he'll make my path straight.

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And so, John, I think when I kind of just almost walk through Proverbs, am I doing that when it comes to this worry or anxiousness?

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Most of the time for me, when it comes to cancer, uh, I realized I wasn't following Proverbs three and then had to say,

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Lord, I think I am anxious about this. I'm concerned about money, length of life, life insurance.

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Will you take care of my wife? Will you take care of my children? I'd like to see my grandchildren. I've got two daughters to be married.

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What about the medicine? What about the treatment? What about the doctors? Instead of me saying, you know what,

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I can be concerned about that and work through every one of those issues properly. But I, I, I need to not worry.

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First Peter says, casting all your cares upon him because he cares for you.

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And so when you're not doing that, if you're watching today and you're not doing that, that's a good time to say,

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Lord, please forgive me. I don't want to be anxious. Uh, so much self -dependence, so much self -reliance.

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Uh, I need you. And, uh, as a good father, would you take care of me and I'll trust you to do that.

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So one of the questions I have, um, I think a lot of people who are Christians have wrestled with is you talk about trusting

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God's promises is the next step. So after recognizing these sins, uh, believe your heavenly father is loving, good and provides for all your needs.

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And of course, Matthew six, uh, Jesus talks about this, that, um, that he, he closed the lilies of the field and allows them to grow.

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And there are people I know who are Christians who did not have the same result you did.

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They actually passed away, um, and going through this trial. And I've, there are times

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I've wondered about that. I mean, your theology, right, is one thing, but then when it really hits home, you start, uh, if you're not grounded, you can quiver a little bit and start asking, is

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God really good? Is that promise really true? I mean, I thought he was supposed to take care of me and now, uh, or my father or my brother or my uncle, and now they're, they're passed away.

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Maybe just address that for a moment. Uh, what God's best versus sometimes what we think is the best.

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Sure. Well, of course the wages of sin is death and, uh, uh, Adam, our federal head sinned and we get credit for that.

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And consequently we have a sin nature. So we're all going to die short of the Lord's return. And so the promise isn't, oh, we're going to get good results.

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And you're right. I, I don't have cancer now, neither prostate cancer, nor leukemia. Uh, by the way, a side note, the treatment that I'm on for leukemia is a two year treatment.

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And they said to me, we're going to do a bone biopsy after 12 months, but you will be on this treatment for 24 months.

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I said, okay, fine. And I had given all my staff, the book, uh, Cancer's Not Your Shepherd, uh, that you're talking about.

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And they knew I was a pastor and, and all that. So I go in after one month through the bone biopsy and they said, you are the unicorn.

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We can't, we can't believe you have no leukemia and you're the only one out of 500 people that does not have it.

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And so what I did say is I said, well, a lot of people are praying for me and that's true.

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What I didn't say was I regularly take ivermectin. Yeah. So, yeah.

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But what, what if somebody gets cancer and then they die? Uh, is God still faithful? And so what my mother used to do when she was going through chemo and she got lung cancer and died 15 years ago, a

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Christian lady, uh, she didn't get healed, uh, physically from cancer. She would always start going through the

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ABCs and in this little article that you posted in your and thank you for doing that. I just did

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ABCs because it was easy to remember what she would do with ABCs and she'd begin to think about the

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Lord. And she would start with a, what can I remember about the Lord God revealed in scripture that starts with an

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A. He's almighty. He's all knowing. Uh, he is a

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B beautiful, bountiful, uh, beneficial C compassion, uh, caring, uh,

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D he's a deliver. And she started just working through as she sat and got infusions with chemo.

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And then when she got to X where there's no X's, uh, that would talk about the Lord, uh, she'd already be thinking about who he is and, uh, instead of what she has.

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And so we are, we as Christians are to walk by faith and not by sight. And Joe would say, even though he slay me yet,

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I'll trust in him. And so God is faithful, even if we die. And when we die, he was faithful when it comes to Paul and his death,

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Peter's death. Uh, the father was faithful with the son's death. And even though we might not get better, uh, there'll be ultimate glorification.

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God's will will be done. And on the flip side, John, I got saved and became a pastor.

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My brother got saved and became a pastor, uh, when our father died of cancer, uh, because the

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Lord is still using death, uh, and, uh, the effects of death in people's lives, uh, for all of his purposes.

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So even though we might die and we will die, God is still faithful. Well, you say in C and D that chase after God in his glory and do not borrow trouble.

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Um, I guess we should start with C, you know, chasing after God, practically speaking, I think you already gave us probably the template for what that looks like, uh, in just cultivating this mindset that's so focused on who

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God is and not your situation specifically, making that the secondary thing.

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Um, but if you have anything to add there, I guess, you know, go for it. And then we can go to do not borrow trouble.

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Sure. Well, when I went through a church split in 2000, I didn't really think through all the ramifications and the ripple effect.

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And what I didn't know was the Lord gave me a ministry and that ministry was eventually talking to other pastors who would go through church trouble.

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And in a similar fashion, we go through a trial. We've seen the Lord faithfully take us through the trial, first Corinthians chapter 10, verse 13 and other passages.

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And then we can help other people and we can say, yes, that Bible verse is true. But I also want you to see in my own life, uh, how

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I, uh, experienced God's grace and his, uh, undergirding strength in that trial.

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So when I got cancer, the first time I didn't realize I was given a cancer ministry.

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And so I was starting to say on no compromise radio, if you're a man and you've got prostate cancer, believer, unbeliever, uh, write me and we'll talk.

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And so I've talked to many, many men, both, uh, Christians and unbelievers, because once you're in the club, the cancer club, then

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I can talk to people just directly and frankly, and, uh, I'm just in the club.

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And so I didn't know I had a ministry to cancer folks and, um, same thing, uh, when it comes to leukemia.

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So chasing after God in his glory, I think when we go through trials, the Lord is refining us.

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The Lord is helping us, but also it's for other people. My wife always says only two things matter in this world,

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God and other people. And so the Lord is helping me. So then I want to try to help other people.

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And so whether that's talking to them, being there, having chemo, whatever it might be.

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So chasing after God in his glory, when Jesus said, seek first the kingdom of God, I'm not that smart.

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I'm a public school educated kid from Nebraska. So the way I, I process that is I've been through this and I've seen

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God's hand and how can I help other people? And so ministry is for others.

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And, uh, you know, as Luther said, God doesn't need our good works, but our neighbor does. And so how can

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I help other people that have gone through this trial? It's just like when a lady goes through a miscarriage and other ladies who've had miscarriages come alongside and try to help and serve.

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And I think that's what we do in the middle of a trial versus this focus on self. And what was me?

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Yes, we're hurting. That's true. But I need to think upwardly and outwardly. Yeah.

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Yeah. I have learned that in my own life through smaller tragedies, perhaps in some ways, but, uh, infertility struggles.

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And then my wife losing her mother, uh, two years ago at such a young age. And it does open these doors that would never have probably been opened with non -believers even who have encountered similar things and they want to know how you face that challenge.

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And it's a great opportunity to talk about Christ and, um, the strength of, um, the promises that he's given us and how that, that helps us through.

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Um, the last thing you'd say is do not borrow trouble. And this is, this is all from Matthew six, but, uh, do not be anxious about tomorrow for tomorrow will be anxious for itself.

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Sufficient is the day, uh, is its own trouble, which I I'm going to admit, I have a struggle with this at times.

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I I'd like to, I mean, maybe that's a guy thing too. Like we, you, you were trying to spot the threats.

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What are the threats? What are the things that could take away the health and financial condition of your family?

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And I, I want to get out ahead of them and make sure that we meet those challenges. Um, but obviously

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I can't control everything. I'm not God, he's already got it under control. So we expand on that a little bit.

22:30

Sure. I was given a complete body scan to see if I was able to take the leukemia medicines, these oral medicines, and they did the complete body scan,

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John. And you know that I'm a long distance bicyclist and I like to work out and I try to take care of myself for the most part.

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And, and so they do the full body scan and they say, well, the good news is you can have the leukemia. The bad news is you have an aortic aneurysm that if it grows any larger, you're going to have to have open heart surgery and replace or if you strain too much, it will burst and you'll be dead.

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So the upside is if I wouldn't have had leukemia, I'd never know about that. And now every year

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I get that aneurysm measured. And if it gets to be about five more millimeters larger, they'll have to do the open heart surgery, heart bypass, et cetera.

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And so, and I used to work in the operating room. So I've seen those done and it is brutal. So here's my point.

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I have now been given by the Lord this diagnosis and I realize every day could be the last day.

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Today could be the last day. And, but the thing is, John, it's true for all of us. We all know theologically today could be the last day, car accident, brain bleed, who knows what could happen?

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You know, nuclear bombs. I did ask a guy engineer at church. I said, if a nuclear bomb hits

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Boston, will I make it here in Worcester, 50 miles away? He said, it depends which way the wind is blowing.

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So all these things we could worry about, all these things we could be anxious about.

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And I'm thinking, you know what, today, you know, you think of the psalmist, this is the day that the

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Lord has made and let us be glad and rejoice in it. And what can we do today? I can't fast forward till tomorrow.

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I can't go ahead and say, well, when am I going to have to have that aortic aneurysm repair? Today's got enough trouble.

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That is, it has enough concerns and issues to deal with in terms of God and other people, prayer, scripture, service.

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I learned a long time ago from a man who said, when you get home, man, go up to your wives and say, honey,

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I love you. Greet the kids and say to your wife, how can I serve you today? And just thinking about lovingly laying down our lives for our wives and our children and teaching them things.

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So we've got a lot to do today. And am I going to be dead tomorrow? Maybe, maybe, maybe

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I don't wake up. That's so, that's such a good word. I don't know if you've heard the Tim McGraw song, live like you were dying.

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You ever heard that? He talks about a guy who's diagnosed with cancer. And my dad likes that song and it's not a

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Christian song necessarily. I mean, he does talk about, he reads the good book, but it's it does kind of focus you on the things that are truly important when you realize your time is short.

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And, and I think of like in some of the online discourse that happens in Christianity, there's

25:31

I don't know if you've noticed or not, there's a strong current on trying to make sure that patriarchy is emphasized and male leadership is emphasized.

25:43

And I think the scriptures do speak about this, but when you say, tell your wife, how can

25:48

I serve you? I love you. It just resonates with me. I was at a conference recently where I heard a guy who said, look, you can't lead your wife until you love your wife.

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And it's true. Like I could, you know, or you or anyone could just leave their home and that, that could be the last time you see your wife and what's she going to, what's she going to be left with?

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Right. Is I guess the question. And I want her to know that I love her and that I've, you know,

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I'm willing to lay down my life like Christ did for his church. And so anyway, that's good.

26:22

Well, I think it's so true. And for those people who are watching or listening, you know, we, we asked the question when's the last time you said to your spouse,

26:30

I love you. Can't believe the Lord gave me, uh, you, uh, children. I love you.

26:36

I'm proud of you. I don't remember my dad ever saying that I'm proud of you. He loved me in the sense that he took care of us, provided for us when he was a drinker and other things.

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And so now when my kids fly or I fly, or I talk to them and we have a little thing and that is, we don't say to dad and I don't say to them, love you, love you is one step under.

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I love you. And so I say to them, I love you. They say, I love you every single day.

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And then I say to them, I'm proud of you. I'm so proud of you. And at young men at the church, uh,

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I regularly say to them when they do something good, uh, I say, you know, if I was your dad, I'd be proud of you.

27:15

You said that to me actually. So, and I, and it meant, no, I meant a lot. I was like, wow,

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I don't really get that very much. That's, uh, uh, you know, that is, you don't realize it until maybe it happens.

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That is something that men crave is that, um, what do they say? Like, uh, you know, wives, women like to be loved.

27:35

Men want to be respected. Um, but it's, it's really the form of love, I suppose. Right. Cause they both can be loved, but.

27:43

Correct. I mean, there's just something about, if you think about how God has designed us specifically as, as men and, and leading.

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And if you think, okay, what about Adam in the garden? Uh, there's a debate on this, but let's just say he was prophet, priest, and King, uh, just all these things.

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You look at the Lord Jesus and what he was like on earth and who he was. And so there's just something to me that, you know, it's not,

28:09

I don't want it to be flattery. You just throw it out there. When somebody tries to do something and they're, they're, they're trying to serve the

28:15

Lord or they preached a sermon. It might not have been that good, but it was Christ exalting. I'd say, you know what? That was a really good.

28:21

And if I was your dad, I'd be proud of you. I mean, to this day, and here's why I said, I like to say it, John, uh, there's a pastor is he's still alive.

28:29

He's in Texas, Dave Jeffries. And I was preaching here in Massachusetts and I was in Ephesians and I don't think

28:34

I did a very good job. And it was the old school Abendroth and exegetical digest and a lot of data and grammar and lexicon and just back up the dump truck.

28:44

It's a commentary beep, beep, beep, beep versus a, versus a well -crafted sermon.

28:51

And he said to me afterwards, do you know what? And I think he knew I was struggling in the sermon, but he could tell

28:57

I studied. He said, Mike, if I were your dad, I'd be proud of you. And I mean,

29:03

I just started crying. I just thinking, you know what? This affirmation of another godly man saying,

29:09

I know what you're going through. I know the crucible of ministry. And I know you're trying to discharge your duty, even as a fallen sinful man, redeemed by grace.

29:18

Good job. I mean, the text does say, encourage one another. And now we live online and online, there's not much encouragement.

29:25

It's, did he, you hear that? Did you say that? Did he did that? Yeah, that's so true.

29:30

And sometimes the encouragement you do see isn't legitimate. It's trying to stroke someone's ego to ladder climb or to maintain tribal integrity instead of you legitimately meaning it.

29:43

And that is a good point. I didn't, I haven't really thought of that deeply, but probably worth thinking about.

29:51

So let me, let me switch gears a little, if I can, on this. And we, I don't see questions specifically related to what you're talking about, but I want to remind people, all 335 of you who are streaming right now, 36.

30:06

If you guys want to ask a question of Pastor Mike Avendroth, now is your chance.

30:12

He said he would take the most controversial questions. I think he said that. Did he say that? No, he'll take any questions on this.

30:20

I want to just also plug the book. It's called Cancer is Not Your Shepherd, a 31 day guide to suffering.

30:28

And I think, so it's a devotional essentially that you can give to people who have been diagnosed who might not even be

30:34

Christians. And it's a way to, I think, would you say, Mike, you said someone had ordered like 999 copies just to pass out, right?

30:43

That's a great witnessing tool like that. So check it out. It's on Amazon. Do you want people to go to Amazon?

30:49

Where do you want them to go? Sure. Well, there's two versions of the book. The larger version that you just talked about,

30:55

Cancer is Not Your Shepherd. Excuse me. It's got some of my information that I've got some Puritans on suffering in general, then a condensed version.

31:03

That's the one that my friend ordered 999 of those that's called Jesus and Cancer, and both are on Amazon.

31:11

Okay. So go to Amazon. So there's the larger catechism and the smaller catechism of the same book.

31:17

There you go. So I want to talk a little bit about with our remaining 15 minutes or so about this book.

31:24

Here we go. Law and Gospel, a Primer. This is your latest. And when I say book, it's really, you can see this is more of a booklet.

31:30

It's kind of, how many pages is this? Well, it's a book, but it's a lot of quotes from scripture and from confessions and from old dead guys.

31:44

Some of them are living, but I noticed at one page, you have your brother here. You snuck in Baptist confessions.

31:52

So I mean, it's quite the status there, but a lot of Luther. I'd say

31:58

I don't know, Calvin or Luther the most, probably Luther more than anyone else.

32:05

This is something we could take in a couple of different directions, but I know I've had you on before to talk about this a little bit, and I don't see this slowing down as far as, it seems like it's one of those things that church will always have to navigate because there are constantly new, innovative ways that people want to merge law with gospel.

32:29

Sometimes I don't recognize it even at first because it's sneaky or you don't understand maybe what someone's saying, and then you realize what they're saying.

32:38

So one of the things we had talked about was the social justice movement and how guys like Jim Wallace, he would talk about the gospel of the kingdom.

32:47

And then when you unpack that, he was trying to sneak in categories of law and Jarvis Williams and some of these guys.

32:54

What I've noticed though, is that there's guys on the more conservative political end who are against those guys and their political agenda, but they do some similar things.

33:05

And I think it might be prudent to talk about that a little bit, because this is an error that can affect you regardless of your political position, it seems like.

33:15

So maybe I should back up. What's the law gospel distinction? Since for those who didn't see our episode on that, why is it important?

33:24

Sure. Luther, Calvin, the reformers, they would say there are two words to help you understand the

33:31

Bible, and those two words are law and gospel. Now you can generally talk about law, or you can specifically talk about law and the same thing with the gospel, but strictly speaking, not generally, but strictly speaking, law is something that God tells you to do.

33:46

It's a command, it's an imperative. And gospel is a promise centering around the work and the person of the

33:54

Lord Jesus. And so one is due and the other's done. And you've heard it said over and over and over, even by Spurgeon, the law is do, do, do, the gospel is done, done, done.

34:04

And when we talked about social justice, it was easy to see, oh, the social justice, they're saying it's the gospel of social justice, but they're telling us to do things.

34:15

And so they're making category errors. And once you see it, and I watched it in your life,

34:21

John, in your ministry, once you see it, you can't unsee it. And it's very, very clear. Let's not mix the two together.

34:28

They just don't mingle. And so when it comes to law for the unbeliever, we tell them about God's standards, and then we give them the one that measured up to those standards.

34:40

That's the good news of who Jesus is, life, death, burial, resurrection. Then when we go to believers, we tell them, here's who you are in Christ, and here's what he's done for you.

34:49

And in light of that, he wants you to obey, not to earn salvation or to get it, but because you want to out of gratitude serve him.

34:57

So generally speaking, law gospel helps you interpret the Bible under these two parameters, do and done, or law and gospel.

35:06

Yeah. And you had, I should probably open it up. You have some good quotes from historic reforms, confessions, and so forth that back up everything you're saying, like the

35:16

Augsburg Confession, all scripture ought to be distributed into these two principal topics, the law and the promises.

35:22

And Philip Melanchthon, all of scripture is either law or gospel. I mean, you have a lot of these quotes that just back up all these propositions.

35:31

But one of the things that I've seen, and I, I'm not speaking on behalf of Mike Avendroff, as I say this.

35:39

So nothing that I say that's coming out of my mouth is intended to reflect your views unless you want them to, and you want to engage this.

35:47

But you know, I was confused. I remember maybe two years ago or so, I read the federal vision document, the initial statement that was signed by a number of men,

35:58

Doug Wilson is probably the most prominent, but there were a number of guys who signed this. And one of the things they said in that was they rejected the law gospel hermeneutic.

36:08

And, and I thought that was an odd thing. There's a few kind of odd things. And I didn't maybe understand the context in which they were writing this, but I was like, whose idea was this?

36:17

But that was one of the things that stood out. And I thought, well, what do you mean the law gospel hermeneutic? And people have asked me about Doug Wilson and his ministry and the difficult thing for me.

36:27

And I know I've, I've expressed this to a few people. I don't know if I've done it publicly yet, but I I'm doing it now.

36:34

I, the confusing part is with the woke guys, it was very easy with a Walter Strickland because he would make the same category error over and over and over.

36:43

And then the only thing that he would do against it was he would sign the abstract and principles and then say,

36:49

I'm Orthodox. He would sign his name. Right. But with someone like Doug Wilson, and I think it goes for more than just him.

36:56

He said things that are very accurate about the distinction between law and gospel. In fact, I saw some like some, some questioning he submitted himself to where he was making a lot of it sounded like the proper category distinctions, but yet then there's things he says that are so confusing to me.

37:12

And so my, I guess what I, where I've come down is like, I don't know. It just seems I don't know exactly what his beliefs are.

37:20

And that is, I suppose, what I find somewhat concerning because we ought to be clear as pastors and theologians, especially, but that whole federal vision thing.

37:29

I don't know, cause I haven't studied it deeply, but it, it, I suspect that it may have tentacles that have gone to other places.

37:36

Like for example, I was just reading Joe Boots book, the mission of God. And he says this, let me just read this real quick and I'll get your reaction.

37:42

If you want to react to this stuff, he talks about a guy named Andrew Kirk, who I'm not really familiar with, but he says, and this is a quote, he quotes

37:49

Andrew Kirk. Andrew Kirk says in the Pauline captivity letters, Ephesians and Colossians, the church is placed at the very heart of God's purpose to gather up all things in Christ.

37:58

It is said not only to be an instrument of the gospel, but part of the gospel,

38:04

Ephesians 3 .6. And then I'm skipping ahead. Joe Boots says the church as the covenant people is a justified and righteous social order that is part of the gospel and is therefore part of the announcement and embodiment of God's kingdom.

38:21

And so I don't know exactly where someone like that stacks up, but I recognize the language because it's very similar to Jim Wallace.

38:28

Jim Wallace would say this kind of like the God, we need to focus on the gospel of the kingdom. It's a community. It involves our law, our actions, our laws, and then you find out it's social justice.

38:38

Do you see the same kind of thing happening or emphasis that concern you on the right?

38:45

I think so. Yes, John. And what happens is if I were to say something was part of the gospel,

38:50

I would then have to define what I mean by that. If I was going to use gospel, maybe small g or as a type of genre in the

39:00

Bible, the gospel according to Matthew, because there are commands in Matthew or something. It's almost like when people say, well, you know what,

39:09

Mike, you're the fifth gospel. A lot of people don't read the Bible, but they'll read you.

39:15

And so it's Matthew, Mark, Luke, John with an H and then Mike. But I'm not the good news.

39:22

The good news, we need to focus on the Lord Jesus Christ, of course, the father sending and then this father and the son having the spirit proceed from them.

39:31

But it's just kind of this amalgamation. I want to keep them separate.

39:37

And so back to kind of federal vision stuff, what happens is you have to ask yourself the question, is there grace?

39:46

Is there gospel before the fall of Adam? Now, the law is good, but I don't think it's gracious.

39:53

And so for a lot of federal vision people, they're mono -covenantal, not two covenants, law, gospel, covenant of works, covenant of grace.

40:02

So they say, well, before the fall, was there grace? Yes. Because that's one continuum of grace, grace, grace, grace, laws, grace, grace is law, mono -covenantalism.

40:13

But I don't think there's. So quick interject, just real quick, because is that like when, I think it was Doug Wilson, I was, cause

40:19

I did a bunch of reading on what he said about this and was one of the early quotes where he goes, where he says to the believer, everything that's law is good news.

40:30

But to the unbeliever, even the gospel is bad news. And so dividing it that way instead of by law gospel.

40:40

Yeah. See, I, and I haven't read that from Doug, but here's what I would say, generally speaking, Doug Wilson is smart.

40:49

He's great writer. He's witty and he's a leader and he has enough knowledge to be clear and direct and distinct.

41:02

He should say things like, all right, this is what I mean. This is what I affirm.

41:08

This is what I deny. And this is how I distinguish these things. And when he says to Costi Hinn about this law gospel stuff and sola fide and federal vision, you're not saved by a dead faith.

41:20

It's my living faith, right? He wants me to think that's a justification category, but that's really technically a sanctification category.

41:29

I'm not talking about living faith. I'm talking about faith as knowledge, assent and trust. That's what I'm talking about.

41:34

And anything to do with love and obedience and covenant faithfulness, that's down the line.

41:40

But in the category of sola fide, someone like Doug Wilson is smart enough to tell me, and I should be able to tell you within one minute, this is why

41:48

I affirm sola fide. These are the things about a tax of sola fide that I deny.

41:54

And here's how we distinguish that. So my question is, why doesn't he do that on a regular basis? Because I think he's talking to different people at different times.

42:01

And I think some Presbyterians have known that. So let me ask you this, because this is the number one thing

42:08

I see that comes up whenever this is brought up is that James says that obviously faith without works is dead.

42:16

And obviously Roman Catholics that, okay,

42:49

I think I'm back on. Can you hear me? Okay. Yeah. You were gone for about a minute and now you're back on.

42:54

Oh, that was really weird. Okay. I don't know if you kept talking or just kind of froze.

43:00

If you were talking, keep going. No. Okay. Well, I don't know what you were asking me.

43:05

Oh, you said something about James too, and I didn't hear anything else. It's Roman Catholic's favorite verse too, that faith without works is dead.

43:13

And so I hear this come up that, look, if you don't have works, then how can we say you have faith?

43:18

So when someone talks about a living faith, they're just saying they want to see the fruit of justification in your life, right?

43:26

Which it sounds reasonable, right? But what's your reply to that? Sure. If we're talking about good works as evidence, as vindication, as things done out gratitude after we've been declared righteous,

43:43

I don't have any problem with fruit and evidence language. That's the language of the Reformation. But I just want to make sure that I keep any kind of our works out of the category of justification.

43:55

So we are, in Romans 4, declared righteous by the works of another. And Paul was trying to deal with an error that was adding human works to justification.

44:07

James is not trying to argue with Paul. James has his back to Paul and fighting a different error.

44:13

And that error is an intellectual faith only, an emotional faith only, where demons believe and tremble.

44:20

But there's no fruit at all. And so for both Abraham and for Rahab, how do you know that they were saved?

44:28

I can't see their heart, you can't see their heart, and you see in the text over and over, you see, you see, shown.

44:35

So how do I know John Harris is a Christian? I can't see your heart. You should have works that I can see that would vindicate your profession.

44:44

That's what he's talking about with Abraham and with Rahab, a man and a woman, prominent, not prominent.

44:51

But in terms of justification, he's already said even back in chapter 1, verse 18, it is an exercise of his will that he brought us forth, not justification language, but of course, regeneration language.

45:03

So to me, James is vindication, fruit, evidence, and you are saved by faith alone.

45:10

And as Luther said, that faith won't be alone, categories separate. Right, so it's not a living faith, like that, adding that adjective could potentially confuse,

45:21

I suppose. It is faith that justifies, and the living is a fruit or confirmation after this fact that recognizes what's already taken place.

45:34

And faith, you corrected me once, that faith is an instrument. I don't know what word I was using, but.

45:41

Well, maybe condition or ground or something like that. Yeah, it's an instrument. And so faith just looks to the one who's giving, object of the faith.

45:50

That's why a weak faith, a small faith, a sinful faith in the right object is still saving. And if you want to have a living faith in order to be saved, how living must that faith be?

46:00

God requires perfection, and so we have to have perfect, entire, exact, perpetual obedience if we're to be saved.

46:07

One of the things you can do is if you ask federal vision people, Romans 2 .13, what does it mean?

46:13

The doers of the law shall be justified. And what they would say is, you need to do enough, or most of them would say, you need to do enough to be justified.

46:21

You have the evidence enough to be justified. But that's not sanctification chapter. Sanctification chapter is chapter six and chapter seven.

46:30

This is before the justification of God's people in Romans 3 .21 and following.

46:36

And so this is in chapters one and two and three. Pagans are under God's wrath because they don't have unrighteousness.

46:43

And you Jewish people, you people that think you have the law, here's how you get to heaven if you have the law.

46:49

Romans 2 .13, to be doer of the law, you will be justified. And they are supposed to say with all of us, we can't do it.

46:57

We can't do it. So you have to have perfect obedience, perfect living faith in order to be justified by that kind of faith.

47:04

That's why we believe it's the category of sanctification where there's fruits and evidences and living faith.

47:10

Yeah, that's good. And I did tell you that I would keep you for about 45 and it's been 47. So I appreciate your staying with us through this.

47:19

Any questions, get them in. I only see a few here and they're actually their statements really. Law points to the gospel,

47:27

J .R. says. So in that way, it is gracious, but it is not grace. I don't know if I'm comfortable with that language quite.

47:33

I think I see what J .R.'s trying to get at is that that first use of the law lets us know that we have sin.

47:40

And so is that not a grace of God to let us know, I guess? Well, I don't mind

47:46

J .R.'s comment, but to be technical about it, let's use Romans 7 language and 1 Timothy 1 language.

47:52

And that is not that the law is gracious, but the law is good and the law is holy and the law is righteous.

47:59

And so think about how good God is to give us the law so we know we need a Savior. Otherwise we wouldn't look for a

48:05

Savior as unbelievers. And so I want to just use the scriptural terms that it's a good thing.

48:13

I don't think the law is grace and grace is law. I just would be very careful and would have a lot of paragraphs written after that if I ever were to say it.

48:22

So can pagans and unbelievers, ask no drama mama, unbelievers truly do good works?

48:27

Is it possible for a pagan, I guess, to love their children and that kind of thing? Sure. Well, I always remember

48:33

R .C. Sproul. And by the way, I was blessed, John, to be at St. Andrew's once where R .C.

48:39

had the chalkboard up and was drawing on the chalkboard because you don't have the Reformed anointing until you've seen

48:44

R .C. Sproul with a real chalkboard writing Latin. And anyway,

48:50

R .C. would talk about the four kinds of works. And so he had four squares and the one square was good, good, bad, good, good, bad, bad, bad.

49:03

And so basically he's saying the second word describes the state before God. So a good, good work would be something good that a

49:11

Christian would do. A bad good would be some sinful thing that a Christian would do.

49:17

Bad, bad would be an evil deed done by a pagan. And a good, bad deed would be something because their image bears an unbeliever could do.

49:27

They could do something good in society. They can pay taxes. They can help the poor.

49:34

And so can a pagan do good works? I don't think they'll ever have a perfect motive in doing those good works.

49:40

They're not salvific. They're not meritorious. They're not an instrument, but they're good for the public. And so in that sense,

49:46

I'd rather have them been doing good works than bad works. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, fathers that are evil give their kids a fish, right?

49:53

So yeah. No, I actually was thinking recently, the rich man and Lazarus, like it's interesting to me, the rich man's on his way to hell.

50:01

And he says, Hey, could, could you go warn my family? Like, is that, that's kind of a good thing, I guess, that he wants, even though he's on his way to hell, he wants his family warned.

50:10

Anyway. Well, well, it's, it's interesting because some unbelievers, I think out good work, out good work

50:19

Christians. I'm just, I know I'm making up words now, but they do more good works than Christians seemingly. And that's one of the reasons why we have to instruct our children, for instance, before they go to college, listen, you're going to meet some

50:30

Christians at college and they are going to be mean, fundamentalist, separatists, uh, wacky, hateful.

50:38

And now you're going to meet lesbians and homosexuals. They're going to be kind and loving and inclusive. And so I just want you to know, we're not going to base our theology on bad

50:48

Christians or good pagans, quote unquote, good. So we're, we're arming and equipping our, our children, uh, with, with good biblical wisdom about common grace.

50:58

And that's really what a good work of an unbeliever would fall under the category of common grace. All right.

51:04

Well, uh, with that, I do, there was one question. I feel like I can't give it a full treatment.

51:09

So JR, uh, you're going to have to wait until maybe another podcast for me to answer the question about Joel.

51:15

Um, I'm not afraid of the question. It's just that we were at a time and, um, I don't want a pastor even draft to have to sit through that.

51:22

Um, uh, if you want to get this book, I would assume, right? Amazon too, right? Law and gospel of primer.

51:28

All right. Check it out. Go to also no compromise radio .com.

51:33

If you want to hear pastor Mike Abendroth's podcast. And of course, if you live in the center of Massachusetts or you're close to West Boylston, check out

51:42

Bethlehem Bible church. And with that, thank you. Appreciate it, John. So glad to be on the show.