June 29, 2018 Show with Dr. James R. White on “Mormonism’s Claim of Being the Only True & Living Church Upon the Face of the Earth” AND “When Perceived Racism is Combated With Racism: A Current Crisis Plaguing the Body of Christ”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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platform on which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron so one

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear

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Now here's our host, Chris.

Arntzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth.

We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this

29th day of June 2018, and I'm so delighted that after a

very long absence, my guest today, Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries

and I are back together again.

James White is director of Alpha Omega Ministries, a Christian apologetics organization based in Phoenix,

Arizona, and he is a professor having taught Greek systematic theology and various topics in the

field of apologetics.

He has authored and contributed to more than 24 books, including the King James Only Controversy, The

Forgotten Trinity, The Potter's Freedom, and The God Who Justifies.

He is an accomplished debater, having engaged in more than 160

moderated public debates around the world with leading proponents of Roman Catholicism, Islam,

Jehovah's Witnesses, and Mormonism, as well as critics such as Bart Ehrman and Dominic Cross,

John Dominic Crossan, Marcus Borg, and John Shelby Spong, and it is my honor and

privilege to welcome you back to Iron.

Sharpens

Iron

Radio,

James

R. White.

I just like saying the word.

I have no.

Expertise.

Well, if you may recall, I used to say

nearly every day on the old Iron Sharpens Iron Radio in New York,

I used to say, so give us a call whether you are a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim, a Buddhist, even a Sweden Borgianist,

but it's so great to have you back on the program.

We are going to be discussing today for the first hour, Mormonism's claim of being the one

true and living church upon the face of the earth, which is the theme of an event where you will be speaking.

Actually, it's going to be the theme of a LDS Protestant dialogue at Christ Presbyterian Church of

Magna, Utah, which is an Orthodox Presbyterian congregation pastored by a mutually dear friend of ours,

Jason Wallace, and then the second half of the program we're going to be addressing when perceived racism is

combated with racism, a current crisis plaguing the body of Christ, and

I'd like to also introduce my co -host today, Simon O'Maney.

Simon O'Maney is one of the more recently elected pastors at Grace Baptist

Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, where much to the dismay of the leaders and congregation, I am a member,

and it's great to have you on the program again as a co -host, Simon O'Maney.

This time you're a co -host, whereas the last time you were actually a guest.

One thing to start off the program on Mormonism, I was actually really

surprised, James, that you got a Mormon in the 21st century, especially

in 2018, to be defending that the Mormon

Church is the only true and living church upon the face of the earth, when that seems to be antithetical to

their public relations policy in this day and age, where they're just,

for the most part, from what I have heard from Mormons, even local Mormon missionaries in the streets of Carlisle

here, hey, we're just one of you guys,.

We're just

a

different

denomination.

Yeah,

that has sort of

become the default message.

Oh goodness, it

was sometime

in

the mid

-1990s, so very, very well ready

to begin, Alvin.

Wow.

One thing that I wanted to have my co -host do is, first of all, formally greet you, now that

he, I believe, has a working pair of headphones and a microphone.

I think I can hear you a lot, in fact, I could tell by that little chuckle that I hear you better.

Oh yeah.

Yeah, oh yeah, there you go.

Simon O'Maney, who, as I said before, is one of the new pastors at Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle,

Pennsylvania, and I'm sure once he gets to know me better, he's going to leave abruptly, but

he holds you in very high regard, Dr. White.

In fact, you play a central role in his life and coming to the Doctrines of Grace, and.

If you could tell us about that, Simon.

Yeah, well, hello listeners, hello Dr. White.

Yeah, so, you know, at one point, Dr. White, you've mentioned that Calvary Chapel are the best producers of Calvinists,

because they tell people to read their Bible, and I am certainly a testimony to that.

So, while I was in Calvary Chapel, the Calvary Chapel pastor, he had kind of a strange

relationship with Calvinism.

He kind of promoted a lot of, kind of, Calvinist gospel coalition type pastors,

writers, that sort of a thing, and yet he warned men like me to stay away from Calvinists, because when

you become a Calvinist, somehow you end up cheating on your wife and becoming a drug addict, etc., etc.

Just a lot of horror stories that, yeah.

But, and of course, you know, he told me to particularly stay away from you.

Yeah, but Calvinists even say that.

But, of course, that only made me more curious, and so, you know, I began to listen to the dividing line, and

particularly picking up Potter's Freedom and reading through that, and, you know, that really caused me to

wrestle through Scripture.

And something I noticed as I was wrestling through Scripture is that, as I would have conversations with my

friends and family and other people, a often very emotive,

appealing to emotions, and also ad hominems, you know, Calvinists are these, you know, bad, scary guys, rather than

really wrestling with Scripture.

So that's something that I really appreciated about your book, and even the dividing line, the pointing to Scripture.

And I would say for myself, that whole Sola Scriptura and high view of Scripture in worship, in theology, and

just how we do theology, is really what attracted me to a Reformed understanding of the faith.

So, yeah, I very much appreciate your.

Ministry for that.

Well, thank you very much.

That's great to hear, and

that book would be written, or that in

multiple

editions, the

same book to try.

And I'm Brad,

and I've

been a

Starkeiser

for

20 years.

Wow, that time flies, because I remember when I was.

Working part -time for Calvary Press, when that book was not even in print yet, and I was

the one primarily in charge of getting the endorsements for the book, which I got a

ton of, as you as you full well know.

And it's amazing how quickly time flies.

In fact, when I was reading the introduction from your bio on your website, well, I wouldn't read

your bio anywhere else, because it would sure to be outdated.

I've embarrassed myself too many times by giving a way low number, way too low number, for

different things that you've accomplished.

But I can remember when I was actually accurate in saying things like, he's had 15

public moderated debates.

That's 160 what?

162 at the moment, yeah.

Wow, incredible.

And also, Simon was in the.

Audience, was it in Belfast?

No, it was in Dublin in 2013.

Yeah, with, so living in Cork, but I had the opportunity to travel up to Dublin on the

train one day, and managed to catch Dr. White debating Adnan Rasheed in

February.

Was that UCD or Trinity?

I don't even remember now.

Yeah, we had one in the

other,

Trinity.

Well, anyway, going back

to the

event

you're having

on Friday,.

January, of January, July 6th, the same night that I'm having an event, thankfully they're on

opposite sides of the country.

Right.

So we're not really competing here geographically, but you are having an event in Magna, Utah,

as we have already stated, which is a suburb of Salt Lake City.

This LDS Protestant Dialogue, and there's a dash there folks, I don't mean LDS

Protestant, I mean LDS and Protestant Dialogue,

and what is the reason why dialogues have been more

more frequently participated in than debates, especially with

someone like a.

Representative of the LDS?

Why is

that?

Well,

wonderful and

great

about,

in that

first, and

half

of

those

were

wives,

but

his uncles

were,

when

they

came to his wedding,

his wife's mom

had

to

sit down,

high

-level

light on the,

yeah,

and

I.

Cannot believe, I still cannot believe, whenever I see or hear anything from your daughter, who

is now Summer Yeager, I just can't believe it, that it

seems like just a year ago when this little girl was chuckling in the backseat of the car saying, Mr.

Arntzen, can you say coffee again?

It's just amazing to me, utterly.

Amazing.

Did you see, did you see stuff like that?

No, I haven't seen that.

Yeah, you'll have to, I thought I reposted it.

I'm your friendly

Reformed

Baptist stalker.

That's right,

that's right.

Or, as some people call me, your sycophant.

Conrad in

Bayways'

hometown.

She has this webcast called

Sheologians, one of the guys goes, wait, Summer's your

daughter?

I listen to

her all the time.

Yeah, it

is.

In Magna,

and

for

a

few

years

now.

Right,

yeah, I

remember

seeing

that.

Yeah,

and you

know,

he

and I are

both

looking at

each

other, and.

Oh boy.

Yeah.

Still

a

Mormon?

ABTQ

causes.

Wow.

So,

what the

end

result

of

that

is

going

to

be.

We're gonna go to our first break right now, if you have a question for Dr. White on either

Mormonism or on our second topic, of course we won't read your question on the second topic of racial

reconciliation and all the other kinds of things that are going on under that umbrella today that amount

to racialist hysteria.

You can ask a question about either, but we won't address the second topic until the second hour, but our email address is chrisarnson at

gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com.

That's C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Don't go away.

God willing, we'll be right back with Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministry and more on Mormonism.

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I'm James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with 90 minutes to go is Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega

Ministries.

We are addressing during the first hour Mormonism's claim of being the one true and

living church upon the face of the earth, and that is actually also the theme of the LDS

and Protestant Dialogue at Christ Presbyterian Church of Magna, Utah, that Dr. White will be

participating in on Friday, July 6th.

And for more information on that event, and we'll be repeating this later, hopefully, but the website is

gospelutah .org.

That is the website of Christ Presbyterian Church of Magna, Utah, where our mutual friend Jason Wallace is the pastor.

Before we go on to my co -host Simon O'Maney's question, I just wanted to get

as much more background in regard to this representative of Mormonism

with whom you'll be having this dialogue with.

We heard some of his ancestry and so on, but what is he actually doing today?

Is he an author?

Is he a faculty member at one of the LDS?

No, Alma

had very close connections because of Sanford and the polygamist

group, and of course he was going to

be released the weekend before, and he

wasn't.

And

well,

for

example,

the argument that, you

know, most point out

Mormon pretty much verbatim, and he was the

first person ever to seem to reflect

readings in

the Greek, and 15 ,000

dialogues

I've had

with Alma

as well.

Well, Simon O'Maney, who, if you just tuned us in, Simon O'Maney is one of the new

pastors at Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, where I'm a member, and Simon is a native of

Cork, Ireland, in the Republic of Ireland, and I was just curious, Simon, how prominent

is Mormonism there in Ireland, where at.

Least in your experience in the Cork area?

Yeah, Chris, so the Mormon Church in Ireland is present, but quite

small from what I understand.

They don't have a temple in Ireland.

The closest temple is in Scotland, so they're small, but they they are present.

Before coming out to the States, actually, I had the opportunity to meet with two young Mormon men who were out

doing their mission, and I met up with them once a week for several months, and

kind of how I got them hooked to keep meeting me is that I told them that I would read through the Book of Mormon with them, and I'd

come back with questions, and so I had questions for them, and I found, though, that as I was building a

relationship with one of these young guys, that often it was a case of one step forward, two steps back,

or two steps forward, one step back, in terms of just getting them to admit to things, things that I knew that they believed, but they didn't want to

disclose to me, and so I found that difficult.

Unfortunately, then, all of a sudden, the one guy that I had gotten kind of close to was just

moved to some other location.

I don't know if that was a result of me meeting up with him, or if that was just the standard procedure.

And I know that.

You had some actual questions for James about the levels of, if there was any distinguishing

characteristic from one temple to the other, or something like.

That.

Yeah.

So, from what I understand, there are different levels.

So, over just this last summer, actually, I was doing chaplain training with the army, and I

had some exposure to Mormonism.

We had to attend different religious denominations and religions, their

worship services, and so I attended a Mormon worship service, and to be honest,

their service in form was not terribly different from some, you know, quote -unquote generic kind

of Christian service.

And I got the impression that they were presenting themselves not so much as, we're the only true church, but like you mentioned,

a shift in emphasis, more of a, you know, we're just one of you, we're just another brand of

Protestantism.

Would that be fair to say, Dr. White?

Well, that certainly is, and that is, I

think, the

theology

that we no longer believe.

They

haven't done

much less

aware.

In the

olden days,

when I've

read any meaningful LDS literature,

yeah,

it isn't really meant to be

overly different.

Okay.

I mean, if you attended on the first Sunday of the month, that's when they had stuff

like that.

But you have the priesthood meeting, and

you know, if you know what those, how you

can't baptize

without those, receive the Holy Spirit

with someone holding that proper.

Are you there, Brother James?

James has.

Been cut off somehow.

James, please call back.

There he goes.

Did I have no idea.

What happened, Brother?

I have no idea either.

The line never hung up.

Yeah, well,.

That is not the first time that that has happened.

And you know what makes me feel better is when I see stuff like that happening on Fox News and other things.

Even these multi -million dollar corporations, they can't get it right all.

The

time.

Well,

at

least you said I had some level of

expertise.

But as you were.

Saying before you got cut off, I think you were talking from what I remember

about the difference between a chapel ward or ward chapel and a temple.

Well, there is a difference between a temple and a ward chapel.

Well, yeah, I mean,.

Whatever your

chaplain,

that's

open for

anybody.

From

someone

who

is

much,

much

older.

In

fact,

a lot

of.

People may not know this, but you and I took a guided tour of the New York City

Temple before it was officially opened and blessed.

Tell us about that.

Yeah, the.

I remember the the plastic booties that we had to wear.

That's right.

And they.

Told us it was because they didn't want it to get dirty, but they really meant.

Something much more

significant

theologically.

I

remember

you

were.

Excited about, oh, I'm sorry, Simon, I'll get to you in a second.

I remember you were excited about this tour and I just felt like I was walking through a new furniture store.

The only thing that was different was the baptismal tank that.

The oxen were holding

up.

Right, right.

Well, you've got

a good memory, because I remember

that.

Sorry about that, Simon, I

had interrupted

you.

Yeah, no, the

Sunday.

That I was there, that I was visiting, it was a time of testimony.

There were perhaps ten people got up, gave a two to three minute testimony of how the church had helped them

over the years.

Then we, well, I didn't take part, but they sang a number of hymns and hymnals that can only be described as ones that looked

like the Trinity hymnal, the blue one.

And then at the end of the service, they had a quote -unquote supper

where it was water and bread.

What's the significance.

Or what's the reasoning behind that?

Well, that's just, you're talking about the actual

communion meal, right?

Yes, yes, yeah.

It's a change

Joseph Smith knew what everything had meant in the New

Testament.

It's very tenuous.

His knowledge of things, he didn't really

like that.

It would have been really generic then.

Yeah.

You know, one of my...

Well, we went back

the

next month,

and I did dare.

I

had memorized a

bug

play.

A mosquito

froze in

mid

-flight.

They

did,

they

did.

Love

the

smell,

love

the smell.

Oh, no, I

didn't.

I

wasn't

as.

Bold as you.

We are going now to our midway break, and this is a longer break than normal because Grace Life Radio

and 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida requires of us an elongated break so that they can air their own

commercials and public services announcements.

So please be patient as we go to this break.

Write down the information that our advertisers provide so that you can patronize them, and also write down questions for

Dr. White.

And I know that some of you are already waiting to have your questions asked and answered, so please be patient.

We will get to you as soon as possible.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com if you'd like to join those who are already in line.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back after these messages with more of Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries.

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Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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.com.

And we have to make some very important announcements about upcoming events.

First of all, God willing, Iron Sharpens Iron Radio will be live on the 4th of July.

We're not running a rerun.

And who better to do a 4th of July program with than a Brit?

So I'm going to be having an interview for the very first time ever with Morris Roberts.

Anybody who loves the Banner of Truth will immediately recognize that name.

Morris Roberts not only used to be, I believe, the chief editor of the Banner of Truth magazine, and

everybody who knows Banner of Truth knows Morris Roberts, but he is also an author, an international conference speaker,

an emeritus minister in the Free Church of Scotland, continuing denomination.

So make sure that you tune in on the 4th of July to hear Morris discuss his new booklet, How Do I

Develop Heavenly -Mindedness and Spiritual Conversation.

That definitely sounds like a booklet I need to read many times over.

But I hope you tune in on the 4th of July.

And then, coming up on Sunday, actually before what I just

mentioned, this Sunday, July 1st, Tony Costa, the professor of

apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary, will be preaching at Hope Reform Baptist Church of

Long Island, New York, in Medford, Long Island, a church that is no stranger to James R.

White of Alpha Omega Ministries, and he has preached there many times.

And I fondly remember our Tuscarora youth retreats where we would both attend and James White would

speak, and I would do comedy routines for the kids.

And in fact, that's where the the great reformer was born.

Party, party, Marty and the protesters was born there.

But if you want to attend this event with Dr. Tony Costa, go to hopereformedli .net

hopereformedli .net and all the information that you'll need will be there.

If you want to call them,

call 631 -696 -5711, 631 -696 -5711.

Then, that following Friday, July 6th, I will be hosting the first -ever Iron

Sharpens Iron radio event in New York City.

That's a free seminar with Dr. Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary, who I just mentioned.

He will be speaking on defending the faith in a postmodern society, then he'll be speaking on

the dangers of cultural Marxism's impact on society in the church, and then that will be followed by a question -and

-answer session with the audience.

If you want more details about this free seminar in New York City, call the...

You could call me, actually, you could call 631 -291 -7002, 631 -291

-7002, or you can email me at chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

I'm actually hosting this event with my friends at New Covenant Church NYC, which is a

new church plant in Manhattan, New Covenant Church NYC, and for more details about

this church, go to ncc .nyc, that's ncc .nyc,

that's New Covenant Church, New York City.

And that same date, the aforementioned LDS versus Protestant, or

should I say LDSN Protestant, dialogue at the Christ Presbyterian Church of Magna Utah,

and there's also other events happening that weekend, go to Christ Presbyterian

Church's website for more details, gospelutah .org, gospelutah .org.

Our guest today, Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, is the key figure there speaking

at these events.

And then, coming up in August, the 2nd through the 4th, my friends at

the Fellowship Conference New England are having their event, and I hope that you attend there,

especially if you live in New England, and especially if you live in Portland, Maine, they will be held,

this conference will be held, I should say, at the Deering Center Community Church in Portland, Maine, and the speakers

include a mutual friend of Dr. White's and mine, Pastor Mac Tomlinson of Providence Chapel in Denton,

Texas, also a very generous financial supporter of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio,

Pastor Tim Conway of Grace Community Church in San Antonio, Texas, Pastor Jesse Barrington of

Grace Life Church in Dallas, Texas, and Pastor Nate Pickowitz of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmanton,

Ironworks, New Hampshire.

If you'd like to go to that conference, go to fellowshipconferencenewengland .com, fellowshipconferencenewengland .com, and then

coming up in November, another one of our sponsors is having an event, the Alliance of

Confessing Evangelicals is having their Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology, not to be confused with the Reform

Town Conference on Quaker Theology, this is the Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology, and that's going to be held

November 9th through the 10th at the Grace Bible Fellowship Church of Quaker Town, Pennsylvania.

Speakers include David Garner, Ray Ortland, Richard Phillips, Timothy Gibson, and Carlton Winn.

Go to alliancenet .org, alliancenet .org, click on events, and then click on the Quaker Town

Conference on Reform Theology.

The theme this year is the glory of the cross.

Last but not least, the G3 Conference is being held in January, and I will be manning an exhibitors

booth there once again from Thursday, January 17th, through Saturday, January 19th, at the Georgia

International Convention Center in College Park, Georgia, a suburb of Atlanta, and I

hope that you greet me at the Iron Sherpins Iron Radio booth if you attend this.

Speakers include Paul Washer, John Piper, Stephen Lawson, Voti Baucom,

Conrad M. Bayway, Phil Johnson of Grace to You Ministries, and the list goes on and on and on.

That's only about a fifth of the speakers there.

If you'd like to attend, go to g3conference .com to register, g3conference .com,

and tell the folks there that you heard about the event from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sherpins Iron Radio.

And last but not least, it's my least favorite portion of the program is where I rattle my tin cup and beg you

for money.

If you love the show, you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves, please go to IronSherpinsIronRadio .com, click support,

then click, click to donate now.

You can donate instantly with a credit or debit card by doing that.

You can also send in checks the old -fashioned way to the address that you'll see when you click support at

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If you're not a member of a local church, I have lists of faithful churches all over the world, and I have already

helped to find churches for quite a number of our listeners near them, and I'm so

thankful to God that I was able to do that.

And so if you are one of those folks that do not have a church that is biblically faithful that you're aware of, I can

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Send me an email to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com and just put in the subject line, I need to find a church.

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And I'd love to hear from more of you with your questions for Dr. White.

If you want to get in line, we will get to as many of you as we can before we run out of time today.

If you have a question for Dr. White, our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

We are going to be moving into the second phase of the interview today.

We are going to be discussing racial reconciliation and we are also going to be discussing

when perceived racism is combated with racism, a current crisis plaguing the body of Christ.

So send us your question about that at ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

But I do want to have at least one of our audience questions about Mormonism addressed, since

our listener has been waiting so long to have that question asked.

This is Gary in New York, New York, and Gary is a first -time

questioner on IronSherpinsIronRadio, and I'm enlarging or

enlarging, I should say, Gary's email because the font is microscopic.

Okay, here we go.

Even though Mormonism is false, what is the strongest point a Mormon has ever made,

either for Mormonism or against Christianity, that.

You've

faced in a

debate?

...a default back to

Mormonism in

some

ways.

So Mormonism

has, that we didn't even touch in

Mormonism.

These

realities,

you know, back in

the internet,

people are

surrounded by YouTube videos and

there

used

to be a group

called, you

know,

when they

were really

good, a logical

Mormon would come

up to

me.

And

that was the

last time formal, really formal debate

started again here.

You know, you just reminded me of the Catholic debates on.

Long Island.

I don't know if you remember this, but there was a young Catholic

gentleman, and I can't remember, what do you call a person who's in the training to be a priest and they actually still wear the clerical garb?

Acolyte?

Yes, there you go.

There was a guy, a young guy, really nice guy, his name was Chris as well, Christopher, and he had a Greek name.

That's all I remember about his last name.

And he thought that you won every debate that he attended there, and he actually wrote a letter

of rebuke to one of your Catholic opponents because he said, Dr. White

has represented Christ in a much more humble and godly way than you did.

You must repent and apologize.

Okay.

And I always.

Wonder...

I can imagine that would have happened.

And it wasn't Mitch Packley either.

He didn't send that to Mitch.

Oh, of course not.

Mitch is always a gentleman.

Yes.

And I always wondered what happened to that.

Interesting fellow.

I hope that if he's listening that he contacts me because I'd love to see if he is still a Roman Catholic

and if he ever became a priest.

Because he was really intrigued by you.

In fact, remember those Catholic ladies.

That would follow you everywhere?

Oh yeah, yeah, they showed up at the debate with Hamza Abdul -Malik.

Right.

Right down.

Yeah, I said before the.

Event started and I was sitting next to them, I said, so where are you ladies from?

And they leaned over, one of the ladies leaned over and said, St. Agnes.

But, well thank you Gary.

By the way, Gary in New York City, you have won a free New American Standard Bible since it is your first time sending in a

question.

So please give us your full mailing address so that CVBBS .com can ship that out to you.

And we thank the publishers of the NASB for providing these Bibles and also for

renewing their contract to advertise on Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

Now we are beginning our second phase of the show.

We are talking about the hysteria that is going on in the name of

rebuking Christians allegedly for being guilty of the sin of racism.

And of course, this unfortunately has spiraled into something that

is insane in many ways.

You have, unfortunately, a violation of the commandment not to bear

false witness against your neighbor, frequently occurring where people are being accused of racism just because they happen to be

white or just because they happen to phrase or parse words in a way

that are not acceptable in a politically correct culture.

Why don't you give at least your initial comments of your own in regard to

what is going on under the banner of racial reconciliation and why you are so troubled by it?

Well, when

you understand

the unity that resulted in the early church

between all

sorts,

when you

realize the

in unity with one another, and then you

lift

the idea

of

multiple

church in a permanent ward, another group of

people out there being any

endgame

ecclesiology

is B4G right

afterward.

And here in the

United States,

you've

got

many

of

our

seminaries

anymore.

Seminaries

that

you

would

be

surprised

if

I named

them.

They

may

well

have

nothing to

do

with

it.

We have so much in common.

I mean, our schedules are identical.

Well,

actually something very similar to that happened when I was riding

a bike.

And somehow my tie got caught in a cab door.

So while it was moving, but anyway, I'm all right.

That's

great,

Chris.

Appreciate that.

Encouraging situation to be involved in.

I'm constantly, and of course I have the world's worst

situation, I mean, let's face it.

By the way, a black brother in Christ who I had on this program recently, and I hate to have to like

say things like that.

Yeah, I know. I hate it too.

But Hensworth Jonas sends his greetings to you.

He remembers you fondly when you both participated in an event.

I think it might have been a cruise.

He is a Caribbean pastor and author.

And when I brought up this stuff that was going on and I specifically mentioned that there is

this idea where someone who happens to be black or part of a

ethnic minority that has never had a position of authority

or that kind of a thing, they cannot be guilty of the sin of racism.

Right.

He said in his very distinct accent that he's moronic.

That is moronic.

But, you know, it is interesting when I when I speak to black brothers of

Caribbean universally, you

can't have

it

both

ways.

Either racism is a sin or it's not.

And yet when you have people promoting, as they have

recently,

in a

person who

has

little melanin, you can be a person

tremendous animus in

your

evangelical.

And that can't be

you can't have you cannot have.

And there have been others who said, oh, yes, yes, you can.

So there's there's differences of opinion there.

I don't know if you have.

Oh, yeah.

Daryl has been a guest on the show.

OK, good.

I'm

glad

you've

had him

on

because

these

brothers, when

we go to Colossians,

we

need to

ask.

I also.

I do for two reasons.

Neo

-Marxist.

It's very much centered

upon the American experience.

Yeah.

OK, quiet.

And this is what happened last time.

And I was sitting here looking.

It looks like,

by the way, I do I do tweet.

I just tweet only to promote the show that I'm on.

OK, yeah.

Well, well, I did put on Facebook, too.

But I put a you know, someone had been talking.

There's not supposed to be white spaces.

But what are you talking about?

The Lord's table is a Christ space, a redeemer space.

It's all about him.

And if you bring your ethnicity into that space, you've completely misunderstood.

And then

another

guy declare that

kind of theology.

That is lunacy.

Absolutely amazing.

We have to go to our final break.

It's going to be much briefer.

And by the way, I forwarded to you a question from Ted in Tuscaloosa, Alabama.

He has a question that's very lengthy.

So I wanted to forward it to you so you could look it over during the break.

And then when we come back, we will address Ted's question.

And we have some other questions as well from listeners.

Don't go away, everybody.

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Welcome back.

This is the final 25 minutes or so of our interview with Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries.

And by the way, Dr. White, that Lindbrook Baptist Church ad reminded me of when you saw

from about 100 yards away a couple of young guys standing in front of a building,

and you knew immediately that they were Mormons.

I did not know this was a ward chapel across the street from Lindbrook Baptist Church.

And then later that night, after I went over there, as soon as you said, those are Mormons, I went over there.

I said, you guys got to come over here tonight to hear the speaker there speak on Mormonism.

And they came and they hung out for at least an hour after the event was over.

Yeah. Yeah. I do remember that.

I just realized that when I looked at the clock.

Although we are going to go a minute at least over because of the issue with you getting dropped.

But anyway, Eric Nielsen will do wonders later on with that.

Anyway, before the break, I forwarded you a question from Ted in Tuscaloosa, Alabama.

He says, I'd like to ask Dr. White why he thinks there isn't more pushback on the

current definition of racism that excuses blacks from ever being racist because they supposedly

don't have the requisite power that racism presumably requires.

Many who are familiar with the social science literature know that this definition was never

bandied about until about the mid -90s and that it originated with a 1978 book

titled White Awareness Handbook for Anti -Racism Training.

Yet I never see any conservatives, black or white, Christian or otherwise, challenge this definition.

Well, you just heard it before.

But anyway.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I did challenge

it in my

comments

earlier and I

certainly do

force

you with a

guest and

that

could be expressed as Christian.

And yet now there are many just black but white as well.

They're buying into these categories and bringing it right in.

And it was in other denominations

now in reformed denominations and reformed seminaries that we just never expected it to be in.

Then you know that you can

have a

deeper discussion.

Well, thank you, Ted, in Tuscaloosa, Alabama.

And we have someone I usually don't mention people's full names, but since this person is a

colleague in the airwaves, I thought I'd give him a plug.

DeWayne Atkinson from The Bar, which is biblical and

reformed.

And he always gets upset when people automatically assume it means black and reformed

because he happens to be a black brother.

He is writing.

I thought he was a connoisseur of fine wine.

I was completely lost.

Well, he's writing from Greenville, South Carolina, and he says, thank you, Chris Arnzen, a .k .a. The

Legend, for taking my question.

And he says, we at The Bar podcast love your work, Dr. White, and thank you for shouting out

Just Thinking podcast and Daryl Harrison.

It means a lot.

First question, given your geographical location, have you had any interactions with

Hebrew Israelites in person?

I'd love when you covered them.

It was so helpful.

And then he has another question, but we'll wait for you to answer that.

Yeah, no, I've actually, my son has at the

train station and

stuff like

that.

That really got my, my son has done some of that.

And he sure, if you're aware

of this, Chris,

is he a martial arts

instructor.

With the Israeli, uh, yeah.

Krav Maga, black belt, a full -time instructor.

Yeah,

well, I've got to get him on the program sometime to talk about the Krav.

Maga or whatever you call it, whatever you call it.

Uh, and, uh, let's see here.

DeWayne says for his second question, what has been the most disheartening thing you've witnessed

or observed since the whole racial social justice issue intensified, what claim,

idea, or comment that when you heard it, it was just made you scratch your head.

Oh, that's an ecumenical council to declare me a

heretic, like Arius or having their

space, these

people actually advocating that the, the different.

Ethnic groups or, or skin colors have the Lord's supper separately.

No,

right.

Um, and right.

And you know, that, what you just said actually touches on a, an important fact.

The, the nonsense about, uh, blacks, uh, not being, uh, having the capability of being guilty

of the sin of racism where you have racism or bigotry, if you will,

being most prominently condemned in the new Testament is, is when the Jews who were a persecuted

people are demonstrating their hatred towards the Gentiles.

And yet they are, the Jews are being rebuked very severely for this sin.

And so it completely abolishes this idea that you need to be an authority or something like that to have

the ability to have guilt over this sin.

Well, on again, the

idea is a systemic racism, power structures, it's all

neo -Marxism and so

particular instance, the, the, the contradiction between having

neo -Marxist is seen with,

because the, uh, could be incapable.

Now they would say,

but they can't have race define, uh,

the term in these, these in

that

way,

individual, the anamnesis

that the idea

that there would be spaces

defined and

the response going,

no, no, no,

no, no,

no, wait,

we don't think in these categories and therefore

need to get

woke to be

woke within the church.

And I can't do that because they,

the thing that's

crazy is sometimes when I.

Hear these guys speak, they actually, and I'm not exaggerating.

They sound like they're quoting from the Ku Klux Klan handbook, uh, because of their, it almost seems like

they're segregationists.

It sounds like they're quoting George Wallace or something.

There are

some of

black space

today.

They

would not call him.

That's what my grandmother called me.

But anyway,.

Sorry.

So I made the statement that the black Hebrew

Israelites today, like amateurs,

anything equal

to let

alone who is black,

you

can't

even

bring

up.

You

can't,

wow.

I didn't know that a

young man got up and he

wrote about, wow.

And

again,

a well, no, I did not know.

I'd never even heard of it before, but I think it

is these gentlemen who will, and this isn't all they do.

This is, they're not

just running around

going, I'm going to think for me to get

attacked

and Duane says, again, we love both you guys at the bar podcast.

God bless you.

Duane did not know I was going to do this, but you can look up the bar podcast at the bar podcast

.com, the bar podcast .com.

Thank you so much.

When Duane, we have an anonymous listener who wants you to define Neo -Marxism.

Well, obviously Marx, the fundamental element

mechanism was the division of the people into

the, and the creation down

on the mental place of what used to hold that society

together for them

out of race, which was not an issue

for, for, for Marx initial him to, to

the economic aspects, but you can do it with race, you can do it with gender

and has become so pop and

Shapiro and others because they're addressing these things that we see this

stuff being promoted.

And our anonymous listener says, uh, so enjoying your guest, Dr. White and pastor Simon.

No mention of me in that.

Um, Simon has that, has that lovely Irish little intelligence and the rest of us.

Thank you.

Well, on that note, um, Dr. White, how do you suggest

for your listeners who might be pastors in dealing with this issue, because on the

one hand, it isn't a contemporary issue that needs to be addressed, but at the same time, we don't want to become so

focused on it that we become like them who were, you know, weekly in their pulpits, um, you know, pounding, pounding this

issue.

What is the best way for, for pastors to, to teach their local people that are under their care?

Well, I, you know, I think we do need to, I've just, uh, Wednesday evening.

I, uh, when I spoke at PRBC, I did do a very quick run for

people to understand of our unity in Christ is it would be good to do maybe a sermon

series that goes through Colossians three and a few other things like that, maybe put it into a church historical

context because, um, that early church was, uh, extremely, you know,

every kind of ethnic tension you could imagine, uh, was created

by different peoples,

you know, for,

for inoculate, be wary of, of hearing

these things.

And, and, you know, hey, you know,

when you hear where these things are coming from, uh, when you hear

this type of terminology that is not biblically derived and is not faithful.

Well, I want to let our listeners know that, uh, stay tuned, uh, in the future for updates

on a debate that I am helping Dr. White to orchestrate with Dr. Michael

Brown, where they are going to be on the same team opposing two,

uh, professedly Christian, uh, ministers who are homosexual advocates.

And this is going to be taking place on the campus of Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary, God willing,

on September 7th.

So keep your ears open for that.

And I will continue to keep you updated as I receive updates on that.

So, uh, I'm, I'm very enthusiastic about that event.

I think it's a very important event.

And do you have anything further to say about that, Dr. White, before we go off the air?

No, I'm, I'm really excited about that, obviously very thankful for the work you're putting out on that.

Uh, Michael and I have debated each other.

We've always wanted Anthony Buzzard

and Joseph Good on the Trinity of Christ and the Trinity, and obviously Michael

and

I are presenting a

biblical, and

if you haven't seen his books, can you be okay?

Well, if you folks are interested in finding out more about Dr. James R. White, go to AOMIN

.org, AOMIN .org.

You can also go to GospelUtah .org, GospelUtah .org to find out more about

the dialogue, the LDS Protestant dialogue coming up on Friday,

July 6th.

And don't forget about Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, where Pastor Simon O'Maney

is one of the pastors, that's gracebaptistcarlisle .org.

And Carlisle is spelled C -A -R -L -I -S -L -E, gracebaptistcarlisle .org.

Dr. White, if you could just hold on for a moment, cause I'd like to say a proper goodbye to you off the air.

I want to thank everybody who listened today, especially those who took the time to write in questions, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your

lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater savior than you are a sinner.