June 29, 2018 Show with Dr. James R. White on “Mormonism’s Claim of Being the Only True & Living Church Upon the Face of the Earth” AND “When Perceived Racism is Combated With Racism: A Current Crisis Plaguing the Body of Christ”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host, Chris.

Arntzen. Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth. We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this 29th day of June 2018, and I'm so delighted that after a very long absence, my guest today, Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries and I are back together again.

James White is director of Alpha Omega Ministries, a Christian apologetics organization based in Phoenix, Arizona, and he is a professor having taught Greek systematic theology and various topics in the field of apologetics.

He has authored and contributed to more than 24 books, including the King James Only Controversy, The Forgotten Trinity, The Potter's Freedom, and The God Who Justifies. He is an accomplished debater, having engaged in more than 160 moderated public debates around the world with leading proponents of Roman Catholicism, Islam, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Mormonism, as well as critics such as Bart Ehrman and Dominic Cross, John Dominic Crossan, Marcus Borg, and John Shelby Spong, and it is my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron.

Sharpens Iron Radio, James R. White. I just like saying the word. I have no.

Expertise. Well, if you may recall, I used to say nearly every day on the old Iron Sharpens Iron Radio in New York, I used to say, so give us a call whether you are a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim, a Buddhist, even a Sweden Borgianist, but it's so great to have you back on the program.

Mormonism’s Claim to Be the Only True and Living Church

We are going to be discussing today for the first hour, Mormonism's claim of being the one true and living church upon the face of the earth, which is the theme of an event where you will be speaking.

Actually, it's going to be the theme of a LDS Protestant dialogue at Christ Presbyterian Church of Magna, Utah, which is an Orthodox Presbyterian congregation pastored by a mutually dear friend of ours, Jason Wallace, and then the second half of the program we're going to be addressing when perceived racism is combated with racism, a current crisis plaguing the body of Christ, and I'd like to also introduce my co-host today, Simon O'Maney.

Simon O'Maney is one of the more recently elected pastors at Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, where much to the dismay of the leaders and congregation, I am a member, and it's great to have you on the program again as a co-host, Simon O'Maney.

This time you're a co-host, whereas the last time you were actually a guest. One thing to start off the program on Mormonism, I was actually really surprised, James, that you got a Mormon in the 21st century, especially in 2018, to be defending that the Mormon Church is the only true and living church upon the face of the earth, when that seems to be antithetical to their public relations policy in this day and age, where they're just, for the most part, from what I have heard from Mormons, even local Mormon missionaries in the streets of Carlisle here, hey, we're just one of you guys,.

We're just a different denomination. Yeah, that has sort of become the default message. Oh goodness, it was sometime in the mid -1990s, so very, very well ready to begin, Alvin.

Wow. One thing that I wanted to have my co-host do is, first of all, formally greet you, now that he, I believe, has a working pair of headphones and a microphone. I think I can hear you a lot, in fact, I could tell by that little chuckle that I hear you better.

Oh yeah. Yeah, oh yeah, there you go. Simon O'Maney, who, as I said before, is one of the new pastors at Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, and I'm sure once he gets to know me better, he's going to leave abruptly, but he holds you in very high regard, Dr. White.

In fact, you play a central role in his life and coming to the Doctrines of Grace, and.

If you could tell us about that, Simon. Yeah, well, hello listeners, hello Dr. White. Yeah, so, you know, at one point, Dr. White, you've mentioned that Calvary Chapel are the best producers of Calvinists, because they tell people to read their Bible, and I am certainly a testimony to that.

So, while I was in Calvary Chapel, the Calvary Chapel pastor, he had kind of a strange relationship with Calvinism. He kind of promoted a lot of, kind of, Calvinist gospel coalition type pastors, writers, that sort of a thing, and yet he warned men like me to stay away from Calvinists, because when you become a Calvinist, somehow you end up cheating on your wife and becoming a drug addict, etc., etc.

Just a lot of horror stories that, yeah. But, and of course, you know, he told me to particularly stay away from you. Yeah, but Calvinists even say that. But, of course, that only made me more curious, and so, you know, I began to listen to the dividing line, and particularly picking up Potter's Freedom and reading through that, and, you know, that really caused me to wrestle through Scripture.

And something I noticed as I was wrestling through Scripture is that, as I would have conversations with my friends and family and other people, a often very emotive, appealing to emotions, and also ad hominems, you know, Calvinists are these, you know, bad, scary guys, rather than really wrestling with Scripture.

So that's something that I really appreciated about your book, and even the dividing line, the pointing to Scripture. And I would say for myself, that whole Sola Scriptura and high view of Scripture in worship, in theology, and just how we do theology, is really what attracted me to a Reformed understanding of the faith.

So, yeah, I very much appreciate your.

Ministry for that. Well, thank you very much. That's great to hear, and that book would be written, or that in multiple editions, the same book to try. And I'm Brad, and I've been a Starkeiser for 20 years.

Wow, that time flies, because I remember when I was.

Working part-time for Calvary Press, when that book was not even in print yet, and I was the one primarily in charge of getting the endorsements for the book, which I got a ton of, as you as you full well know.

And it's amazing how quickly time flies. In fact, when I was reading the introduction from your bio on your website, well, I wouldn't read your bio anywhere else, because it would sure to be outdated.

I've embarrassed myself too many times by giving a way low number, way too low number, for different things that you've accomplished. But I can remember when I was actually accurate in saying things like, he's had 15 public moderated debates.

That's 160 what? 162 at the moment, yeah. Wow, incredible. And also, Simon was in the.

Audience, was it in Belfast? No, it was in Dublin in 2013. Yeah, with, so living in Cork, but I had the opportunity to travel up to Dublin on the train one day, and managed to catch Dr. White debating Adnan Rasheed in February.

Was that UCD or Trinity? I don't even remember now.

Yeah, we had one in the other, Trinity. Well, anyway, going back to the event you're having on Friday,.

January, of January, July 6th, the same night that I'm having an event, thankfully they're on opposite sides of the country. Right. So we're not really competing here geographically, but you are having an event in Magna, Utah, as we have already stated, which is a suburb of Salt Lake City.

This LDS Protestant Dialogue, and there's a dash there folks, I don't mean LDS Protestant, I mean LDS and Protestant Dialogue, and what is the reason why dialogues have been more more frequently participated in than debates, especially with someone like a.

Representative of the LDS? Why is that? Well, wonderful and great about, in that first, and half of those were wives, but his uncles were, when they came to his wedding, his wife's mom had to sit down, high-level light on the, yeah, and I.

Cannot believe, I still cannot believe, whenever I see or hear anything from your daughter, who is now Summer Yeager, I just can't believe it, that it seems like just a year ago when this little girl was chuckling in the backseat of the car saying, Mr. Arntzen, can you say coffee again?

It's just amazing to me, utterly.

Amazing. Did you see, did you see stuff like that? No, I haven't seen that. Yeah, you'll have to, I thought I reposted it. I'm your friendly Reformed Baptist stalker. That's right, that's right. Or, as some people call me, your sycophant.

Conrad in Bayways' hometown. She has this webcast called Sheologians, one of the guys goes, wait, Summer's your daughter? I listen to her all the time. Yeah, it is. In Magna, and for a few years now. Right, yeah, I remember seeing that.

Yeah, and you know, he and I are both looking at each other, and. Oh boy. Yeah. Still a Mormon? ABTQ causes. Wow. So, what the end result of that is going to be.

We're gonna go to our first break right now, if you have a question for Dr. White on either Mormonism or on our second topic, of course we won't read your question on the second topic of racial reconciliation and all the other kinds of things that are going on under that umbrella today that amount to racialist hysteria.

You can ask a question about either, but we won't address the second topic until the second hour, but our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com. That's C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Don't go away.

God willing, we'll be right back with Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministry and more on Mormonism. Tired of box store Christianity? Of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert?

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The LDS and Protestant Dialogue in Magna, Utah

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with 90 minutes to go is Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. We are addressing during the first hour Mormonism's claim of being the one true and living church upon the face of the earth, and that is actually also the theme of the LDS and Protestant Dialogue at Christ Presbyterian Church of Magna, Utah, that Dr. White will be participating in on Friday, July 6th.

And for more information on that event, and we'll be repeating this later, hopefully, but the website is gospelutah .org. That is the website of Christ Presbyterian Church of Magna, Utah, where our mutual friend Jason Wallace is the pastor.

Before we go on to my co-host Simon O'Maney's question, I just wanted to get as much more background in regard to this representative of Mormonism with whom you'll be having this dialogue with. We heard some of his ancestry and so on, but what is he actually doing today?

Is he an author? Is he a faculty member at one of the LDS?

No, Alma had very close connections because of Sanford and the polygamist group, and of course he was going to be released the weekend before, and he wasn't. And well, for example, the argument that, you know, most point out Mormon pretty much verbatim, and he was the first person ever to seem to reflect readings in the Greek, and 15 ,000 dialogues I've had with Alma as well.

Well, Simon O'Maney, who, if you just tuned us in, Simon O'Maney is one of the new pastors at Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, where I'm a member, and Simon is a native of Cork, Ireland, in the Republic of Ireland, and I was just curious, Simon, how prominent is Mormonism there in Ireland, where at.

Least in your experience in the Cork area? Yeah, Chris, so the Mormon Church in Ireland is present, but quite small from what I understand. They don't have a temple in Ireland. The closest temple is in Scotland, so they're small, but they they are present.

Before coming out to the States, actually, I had the opportunity to meet with two young Mormon men who were out doing their mission, and I met up with them once a week for several months, and kind of how I got them hooked to keep meeting me is that I told them that I would read through the Book of Mormon with them, and I'd come back with questions, and so I had questions for them, and I found, though, that as I was building a relationship with one of these young guys, that often it was a case of one step forward, two steps back, or two steps forward, one step back, in terms of just getting them to admit to things, things that I knew that they believed, but they didn't want to disclose to me, and so I found that difficult.

Unfortunately, then, all of a sudden, the one guy that I had gotten kind of close to was just moved to some other location. I don't know if that was a result of me meeting up with him, or if that was just the standard procedure.

And I know that.

You had some actual questions for James about the levels of, if there was any distinguishing characteristic from one temple to the other, or something like.

That. Yeah. So, from what I understand, there are different levels. So, over just this last summer, actually, I was doing chaplain training with the army, and I had some exposure to Mormonism. We had to attend different religious denominations and religions, their worship services, and so I attended a Mormon worship service, and to be honest, their service in form was not terribly different from some, you know, quote-unquote generic kind of Christian service.

And I got the impression that they were presenting themselves not so much as, we're the only true church, but like you mentioned, a shift in emphasis, more of a, you know, we're just one of you, we're just another brand of Protestantism.

Would that be fair to say, Dr. White?

Well, that certainly is, and that is, I think, the theology that we no longer believe. They haven't done much less aware. In the olden days, when I've read any meaningful LDS literature, yeah, it isn't really meant to be overly different.

Okay. I mean, if you attended on the first Sunday of the month, that's when they had stuff like that. But you have the priesthood meeting, and you know, if you know what those, how you can't baptize without those, receive the Holy Spirit with someone holding that proper.

Are you there, Brother James? James has.

Been cut off somehow. James, please call back. There he goes. Did I have no idea.

What happened, Brother? I have no idea either. The line never hung up. Yeah, well,.

That is not the first time that that has happened. And you know what makes me feel better is when I see stuff like that happening on Fox News and other things. Even these multi-million dollar corporations, they can't get it right all.

The time. Well, at least you said I had some level of expertise. But as you were.

Saying before you got cut off, I think you were talking from what I remember about the difference between a chapel ward or ward chapel and a temple. Well, there is a difference between a temple and a ward chapel.

Well, yeah, I mean,.

Whatever your chaplain, that's open for anybody. From someone who is much, much older. In fact, a lot of.

People may not know this, but you and I took a guided tour of the New York City Temple before it was officially opened and blessed. Tell us about that. Yeah, the.

I remember the the plastic booties that we had to wear. That's right. And they.

Told us it was because they didn't want it to get dirty, but they really meant.

Something much more significant theologically. I remember you were.

Excited about, oh, I'm sorry, Simon, I'll get to you in a second. I remember you were excited about this tour and I just felt like I was walking through a new furniture store. The only thing that was different was the baptismal tank that.

The oxen were holding up. Right, right. Well, you've got a good memory, because I remember that. Sorry about that, Simon, I had interrupted you. Yeah, no, the Sunday.

That I was there, that I was visiting, it was a time of testimony. There were perhaps ten people got up, gave a two to three minute testimony of how the church had helped them over the years. Then we, well, I didn't take part, but they sang a number of hymns and hymnals that can only be described as ones that looked like the Trinity hymnal, the blue one.

And then at the end of the service, they had a quote-unquote supper where it was water and bread. What's the significance.

Or what's the reasoning behind that? Well, that's just, you're talking about the actual communion meal, right? Yes, yes, yeah. It's a change Joseph Smith knew what everything had meant in the New Testament.

It's very tenuous. His knowledge of things, he didn't really like that. It would have been really generic then. Yeah. You know, one of my... Well, we went back the next month, and I did dare. I had memorized a bug play.

A mosquito froze in mid-flight. They did, they did. Love the smell, love the smell. Oh, no, I didn't. I wasn't as.

Bold as you. We are going now to our midway break, and this is a longer break than normal because Grace Life Radio and 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida requires of us an elongated break so that they can air their own commercials and public services announcements.

So please be patient as we go to this break. Write down the information that our advertisers provide so that you can patronize them, and also write down questions for Dr. White. And I know that some of you are already waiting to have your questions asked and answered, so please be patient.

We will get to you as soon as possible. Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com if you'd like to join those who are already in line. Chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages with more of Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries. Have you been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio? We remain on.

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Your home. Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co-host with Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. I would like to introduce you to my good friends Todd and Patty Jennings at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

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You'll also get free shipping on everything if you purchase at least $50 from CVBBS .com. And we have to make some very important announcements about upcoming events. First of all, God willing, Iron Sharpens Iron Radio will be live on the 4th of July.

We're not running a rerun. And who better to do a 4th of July program with than a Brit? So I'm going to be having an interview for the very first time ever with Morris Roberts. Anybody who loves the Banner of Truth will immediately recognize that name.

Morris Roberts not only used to be, I believe, the chief editor of the Banner of Truth magazine, and everybody who knows Banner of Truth knows Morris Roberts, but he is also an author, an international conference speaker, an emeritus minister in the Free Church of Scotland, continuing denomination.

So make sure that you tune in on the 4th of July to hear Morris discuss his new booklet, How Do I Develop Heavenly-Mindedness and Spiritual Conversation. That definitely sounds like a booklet I need to read many times over.

But I hope you tune in on the 4th of July. And then, coming up on Sunday, actually before what I just mentioned, this Sunday, July 1st, Tony Costa, the professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary, will be preaching at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Long Island, New York, in Medford, Long Island, a church that is no stranger to James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, and he has preached there many times.

And I fondly remember our Tuscarora youth retreats where we would both attend and James White would speak, and I would do comedy routines for the kids. And in fact, that's where the the great reformer was born.

Party, party, Marty and the protesters was born there. But if you want to attend this event with Dr. Tony Costa, go to hopereformedli .net hopereformedli .net and all the information that you'll need will be there.

If you want to call them, call 631 -696 -5711, 631 -696 -5711. Then, that following Friday, July 6th, I will be hosting the first-ever Iron Sharpens Iron radio event in New York City. That's a free seminar with Dr. Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary, who I just mentioned.

He will be speaking on defending the faith in a postmodern society, then he'll be speaking on the dangers of cultural Marxism's impact on society in the church, and then that will be followed by a question-and-answer session with the audience.

If you want more details about this free seminar in New York City, call the... You could call me, actually, you could call 631 -291 -7002, 631 -291 -7002, or you can email me at chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

I'm actually hosting this event with my friends at New Covenant Church NYC, which is a new church plant in Manhattan, New Covenant Church NYC, and for more details about this church, go to ncc .nyc, that's ncc .nyc, that's New Covenant Church, New York City.

And that same date, the aforementioned LDS versus Protestant, or should I say LDSN Protestant, dialogue at the Christ Presbyterian Church of Magna Utah, and there's also other events happening that weekend, go to Christ Presbyterian Church's website for more details, gospelutah .org, gospelutah .org.

Our guest today, Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, is the key figure there speaking at these events. And then, coming up in August, the 2nd through the 4th, my friends at the Fellowship Conference New England are having their event, and I hope that you attend there, especially if you live in New England, and especially if you live in Portland, Maine, they will be held, this conference will be held, I should say, at the Deering Center Community Church in Portland, Maine, and the speakers include a mutual friend of Dr. White's and mine, Pastor Mac Tomlinson of Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas, also a very generous financial supporter of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Tim Conway of Grace Community Church in San Antonio, Texas, Pastor Jesse Barrington of Grace Life Church in Dallas, Texas, and Pastor Nate Pickowitz of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmanton, Ironworks, New Hampshire.

If you'd like to go to that conference, go to fellowshipconferencenewengland .com, fellowshipconferencenewengland .com, and then coming up in November, another one of our sponsors is having an event, the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is having their Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology, not to be confused with the Reform Town Conference on Quaker Theology, this is the Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology, and that's going to be held November 9th through the 10th at the Grace Bible Fellowship Church of Quaker Town, Pennsylvania.

Speakers include David Garner, Ray Ortland, Richard Phillips, Timothy Gibson, and Carlton Winn. Go to alliancenet .org, alliancenet .org, click on events, and then click on the Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology.

The theme this year is the glory of the cross. Last but not least, the G3 Conference is being held in January, and I will be manning an exhibitors booth there once again from Thursday, January 17th, through Saturday, January 19th, at the Georgia International Convention Center in College Park, Georgia, a suburb of Atlanta, and I hope that you greet me at the Iron Sherpins Iron Radio booth if you attend this.

Speakers include Paul Washer, John Piper, Stephen Lawson, Voti Baucom, Conrad M. Bayway, Phil Johnson of Grace to You Ministries, and the list goes on and on and on. That's only about a fifth of the speakers there.

If you'd like to attend, go to g3conference .com to register, g3conference .com, and tell the folks there that you heard about the event from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sherpins Iron Radio. And last but not least, it's my least favorite portion of the program is where I rattle my tin cup and beg you for money.

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And I'd love to hear from more of you with your questions for Dr. White. If you want to get in line, we will get to as many of you as we can before we run out of time today. If you have a question for Dr. White, our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

We are going to be moving into the second phase of the interview today. We are going to be discussing racial reconciliation and we are also going to be discussing when perceived racism is combated with racism, a current crisis plaguing the body of Christ.

So send us your question about that at ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. But I do want to have at least one of our audience questions about Mormonism addressed, since our listener has been waiting so long to have that question asked.

This is Gary in New York, New York, and Gary is a first-time questioner on IronSherpinsIronRadio, and I'm enlarging or enlarging, I should say, Gary's email because the font is microscopic. Okay, here we go.

Even though Mormonism is false, what is the strongest point a Mormon has ever made, either for Mormonism or against Christianity, that.

The Strongest Mormon Argument in Debate

You've faced in a debate? ...a default back to Mormonism in some ways. So Mormonism has, that we didn't even touch in Mormonism. These realities, you know, back in the internet, people are surrounded by YouTube videos and there used to be a group called, you know, when they were really good, a logical Mormon would come up to me.

And that was the last time formal, really formal debate started again here. You know, you just reminded me of the Catholic debates on.

Long Island. I don't know if you remember this, but there was a young Catholic gentleman, and I can't remember, what do you call a person who's in the training to be a priest and they actually still wear the clerical garb?

Acolyte? Yes, there you go. There was a guy, a young guy, really nice guy, his name was Chris as well, Christopher, and he had a Greek name. That's all I remember about his last name. And he thought that you won every debate that he attended there, and he actually wrote a letter of rebuke to one of your Catholic opponents because he said, Dr. White has represented Christ in a much more humble and godly way than you did.

You must repent and apologize. Okay. And I always.

Wonder... I can imagine that would have happened. And it wasn't Mitch Packley either. He didn't send that to Mitch. Oh, of course not. Mitch is always a gentleman. Yes. And I always wondered what happened to that.

Interesting fellow. I hope that if he's listening that he contacts me because I'd love to see if he is still a Roman Catholic and if he ever became a priest. Because he was really intrigued by you. In fact, remember those Catholic ladies.

That would follow you everywhere? Oh yeah, yeah, they showed up at the debate with Hamza Abdul-Malik. Right. Right down. Yeah, I said before the.