LBCF Chap 26: Of the Church Pt. 2

We're in chapter 26 of the Church, and remember we began this last week and we saw that this is, if not the longest, one of the longest chapters in the Confession. What we've seen is just a very brief review.

Chapter 26 is divided into two parts. Part 1 is chapters 1 to 4, and that's encompassing the universal church. Part 2 is chapters 5 to 15, dealing with the local church. Remember part 2, which is what we moved into starting last week, can be divided into five subdivisions.

We looked at paragraph 5 last week, looking at the originating mandate of the church, the scripture mandates that we have the local church. And then we moved to paragraph 6, it's defined membership. Who are those who are in membership?

If we do finish today, I did put one of the paragraphs from the Westminster Confession at the end, so you can see the major difference between the two. Just get lighter in here? My eyes okay? All right.

The Local Church and Its Authority Under Christ

So part 2, the local church, subdivision C, paragraph 7, now talks about the authoritative power. Subdivision D, paragraphs 8 to 13, talks about the appointed government. Subdivision E, paragraphs 14 and 15, it's fraternal relations.

Now this is what we're going to start to cover tonight, I don't know if we'll get to all of it, but notice paragraph 7, it's authoritative power. And that's important for us to notice. Do you remember what the last two chapters were prior to chapter 26?

All right, I'm bringing up more what's-its. I should have known it was coming. All right, yes, it's the civil magistrate and marriage. Why would that be significant that you have the civil magistrate, marriage, and then the church?

Yeah, those are the three main covenant authority structures that God has revealed to us in the scriptures. Remember, and this is important, because this is one of the things that is lost, especially in our society today, is the authority, the God-ordained authority, all right?

The way our government today looks at it is, who is the supreme authority in the land? The government, all right? And the family and the church are subservient to the government, and we have seen that clearly during the pandemic, as the government has mandated what families can do, what they can't do, what the church can do, and what the church can't do.

That's totally non-biblical, okay? There are three covenant structures, the family, the church, and the state. And each one is well-defined within the scriptures, and that's why it's very appropriate that our confession of faith deals with them successively, so that we understand.

There are certain things that the family has exclusive control over, all right? The education of children. In this country, we have given that over to the state, but according to the scriptures, it is the mandate for the families to educate their children.

Now, you can turn them over to a school, whether it be a state school or a private school, but families are still responsible for the education of their children, all right? Same thing with the church.

The church has exclusive authority over the spiritual matters pertaining to the nation and the world. What has happened? The government has come in and says, well, no, you have authority, but we'll tell you how to exercise that authority.

We can tell you when you can meet or when you don't have to meet. In fact, in California, they're even telling them, well, you can't do certain things when you do meet. Like, you can't sing. You can't have the sacraments.

That is completely bogus, according to the scriptures. So it's appropriate that we have this now, and paragraph 7 talks about authoritative power. So we're going to move to that next. This is paragraph 7.

It's defined recipients. Now, this is all under the heading of authoritative power. It's defined recipients. To each of these churches thus gathered, now remember, we're picking up from paragraph 5 and 6.

To each of these churches thus gathered, remember, this is the local church. This is Hope Reformed Baptist Church, you know, Redeeming Grace Church and whatnot. That's what this is specifically talking about.

To each of these churches thus gathered, according to his mind declared in his word, all right? So, in other words, the local church has been defined by scripture as the recipients of who has this authoritative power to act in God's behalf on earth, okay?

All right? Well, this is the church, these churches. It's complete sufficiency. He has given all power and authority, which is in any way needful for their carrying out on the order, that order in worship and discipline.

Notice what the confession says, which is just repeating what the Bible says, needful for carrying out all power and all authority. We don't share the authority with the government. And unfortunately, what happens in most modern churches, especially in our society, is people don't even look at the church as though it's an authority.

People look at the church as though it's optional. And if the eldership or the diaconate issues some lawful, biblically lawful, because, I mean, what the elders can do is well-defined and the parameters are in scripture.

The elders of the church don't have unlimited control. It's well-defined. If the eldership in most churches issues a lawful command or says to do something, in most churches they say, well, if I don't like it, I'm just not going to do it.

That's dangerous. OK. And in fact, Hebrews 13, 17, now you're going to have to wait till we get to Hebrews 13, 17, now that we're in there, tells us that if you're not in submission to the eldership of the church, it's very unprofitable for you.

All right. That's not my words. That's the words of Holy Scripture. But all authority and all power is given to the church for the needful carrying out of the order in what? In worship and discipline.

OK. And then to make the point, it's reiterated, which he hath instituted for them to observe. All right. In other words, what the framers of the Confession did at this point was they come back and say, just so that you get it right, there are parameters, you know, which the eldership and the deaconate must work within.

If there are certain things that are very specifically not given to the eldership, for example, the power of the sword to punish people, we can't be executing people. If you go back to the Middle Ages and you found that the church was executing people, totally beyond the bounds of Scripture.

That's never, the power of the sword was never given to the church. All right. And it specified purpose with commands and rules for the due and right exerting and executing of that power. All right. Now notice again, within the parameters that Scripture defines, the eldership has the authority to issue certain rules and commands.

OK. For example, I'll give you just one for example. Suppose you, suppose 11 o 'clock Sunday morning is inconvenient for you to worship. You can't say, well, the elders say the church starts at, service starts at 8, at 11.

I don't want to start at 11. I want to start at 1130. No. The elders have the right to set those types of rules and commands. Does that make sense? Because somebody's got to do it and that job is given to the elders.

Now the same sentence, all right, is it's regulated execution. In other words, the elders have the right to execute the authority that has been given to them by God. And only that authority. All right.

Now you might be asked, well, what happens when the elders misapply that or are abusive? You hear a lot in many churches, especially in some reformed churches, about a heavy handed eldership. All right.

We'll get to that. That's towards the end. There is remedy. There's always remedy built into it. All right. So that's Chapter 26, Paragraph 7. Paragraph 8. The identity of its government. Now here is where we really start to see that this is a Reformed Baptist confession and not a Presbyterian or Dutch Reformed or Netherlands Reformed.

Because this is where you'll see it as we go through. A particular church gathered and completely organized according to the mind of Christ. Well, there's a little misnomer there. I don't know any church that is completely organized.

All right. A particular church gathered and completely organized according to the mind of Christ consists of officers and members. All right. Now, again, this is explaining what the scriptures teach. And you can see.

Keep in mind how hope is organized. All right. And you'll see as we go through that we are definitely following the London Baptist confession of 1689, which is important for you to understand that. So it consists of officers and members and the officers appointed by Christ to be chosen and set apart by the church.

Notice, in fact, it's September. A letter will be going out again every September. We send out a letter of all the male members who are members in good standing. And it's up to the church to to put names forward for the diaconate or for the eldership.

Why? It's right here. All right. This is what the confession says. They could be set apart by the church. And again, we have a procedure in our Constitution as to how we do that, how much time we have, what the procedure is.

But it's all based upon this. So called and gathered. All right. Just talking about the church for the particular administration of ordinances. OK. And execution of power or duty, which he entrusts them with.

In other words, notice the church is administered by elders. Well, we haven't got there yet, but let me finish them. We'll go back. He calls them to be continued to the end of the world. Our bishops are elders and deacons.

All right. A couple of things. Notice to be continued to the end of the world. All right. In other words, until Christ returns, the church of Jesus Christ will exist and should continue to be meeting in local congregations.

All right. Unlike what Harold Camping said, you know, he said the church had ended. Now, I mean, here you can see clearly what the confession says. Now, notice also, and this is where we are dissimilar with the Westminster confession.

Who are our office bearers, bishops or elders? That's just two names for the same office. All right. In fact, there's several different names for the office of elder. In Scripture, and the reason for the different names is it just describes a different function.

We're described as elders or overseers because we're to oversee the church. We're described as pastors because we're to shepherd. We're pastors, teachers, you know, because we are endued with the command to teach the congregation.

All right. But there's only two offices, bishops or elders, and then deacons. And that's how we are. We have a board of elders. We have a board of deacons in this church. Everybody follow that? Why only those two offices?

Because that's what the Scripture mandates. Okay. Now, we do just, in fact, let me mention this. We do have trustees in the church to fulfill New York state law, but those trustees are deacons. So we can fulfill state law because they mandate trustees for nonprofit corporations.

But to fulfill New York state, we have trustees, but those trustees are also deacons because it's the deacons who would make any of those financial decisions. And that underneath the authority of the eldership.

The elders are the ultimate overseers of all the business of the church. Okay. I would suggest if, you know, when we finish with this chapter that you go to the Constitution. If you haven't read it in a while, read through it.

Okay. Especially on office bearers. And you'll see how the things that we have in there are all based upon what we have in this confession. All right. So that's the identity of its government. The appointment.

How do we appoint? Yes. Bless you. That was a healthy one. All right. The appointment of its government. The way appointed by Christ for the calling of any person fitted and gifted by the Holy Spirit unto the office of bishop or elder in a church is that he be chosen thereunto by common suffrage of the church itself.

That's why when we have men that are being put forth, ultimately you have their name is given before the congregation. You have a month to examine, you know, and to see if there's a way we put it in specific is that if you have something against that person, make sure that you deal with that before it comes up.

But then the person is elected by the congregation at the annual business meeting. So and again, why do we do that? Some people say there are some churches where elders are appointed by other elders. All right.

We don't do that because that would be a violation of our confession of faith. OK. And solemnly set apart by fasting and prayer. Whenever we have these names come in, we send out that letter and we ask the congregation to fast and to pray.

All right. And in fact, any time we have any type of laying on of hands, it's a time especially for the eldership to be fasting and praying for baptismal candidates. We ask baptismal candidates to fast and pray any of these types of ordinances of the church.

We should be praying for. All right. Within position of hands of the eldership of the church. Why do we call prospective officers up? Have them kneel and the elders lay hands on them. Here it is. All right.

Because this is what the confession would mandate based upon the teaching of Scripture. OK. If there be any before constituted therein, this is talking about if you have a new church and you may not in fact have elders.

But if there are, you follow this. All right. And of a deacon that he be chosen by the like suffrage. So the process is pretty much exactly the same for the deaconate as it is for for the eldership. And set apart by prayer.

And again, the like imposition of hands. All right. And we follow these these traditions. But a lot of people say, well, you know, why do you put your hands on? Why don't you just pray for money? Just have them.

Because this is this is the tradition. This is what the practice that we see in the New Testament. And so we just follow that same practice. OK. Questions on paragraph nine. Pretty simple, pretty straightforward.

The Ministry of the Word and the Responsibilities of Elders

Paragraphs 10 and 11 are the cornerstone of its government, the ministry of the word. All right. The whole purpose for having an administration of of the church is to organize the church so that the ministry of the word is carried on effectively.

OK. So paragraph 10. Speak specifically of the official ministry of the word by pastors. The primary role of the elders of the church is the ministry of the word in prayer. All right. We see that that's why the deaconate was appointed in acts in the very beginning of the church.

All right. So we see that here. The confession says it's a heavy responsibility. The work of pastors being constantly to attend the service of Christ in his churches. In the ministry of the word in prayer.

I mean, there's a lot of other things that the elders are required to do. But the central piece is right there. The ministry of the word of prayer. You cannot have an elder who cannot minister the word and be a prayer.

It's just contradictory. All right. You can have. Quote ruling elders. You see this very specifically in the Presbyterian churches. You can have ruling elders, but they also must be apt to teach and be effective prayers.

All right. That you cannot take away. It's OK to have a primary teaching elder. In fact, that's what most churches do. Almost all reformed churches have a primary teaching elder who holds that particular function.

But again, I should point out in this church, as in most reformed Baptist churches, there is no hierarchy within the eldership. In other words, there's no elder who is above any of the other elders. We have what we call a parity and plurality of elders.

When we meet as an elder, there's three of us, which makes it simple. Because we can never have a tie on a vote. And if we vote two to one, it doesn't matter who the one or the two. There's no weighted voting.

OK. So fortunately for us, since we've had three elders, we've never had anything but a unanimous vote. OK. In fact, when we had one elder, we had a couple of times where it wasn't unanimous. And I was really struggling with myself.

I said, no, we should do it this way. No, we should do it that way. But, you know, anyway. With watching for their souls. All right. This gets us back to Hebrews 13, 17, which is something you should definitely look as they that must give an account.

That's why it's called a heavy responsibility. You realize that the elders of the church are going to stand before Christ and ask the question, what have you done with the souls I entrusted to you? By the way, this is why we are so.

What's the word I'm looking for? We're so intent that people make a commitment to join the church. All right. Because the question comes up. Think of it this way. According to Hebrews 13, 17, the elders of the church are those who will are called to give an account for your souls.

So as elders, there's three of us now where we're going to stand before Christ at the end of the age. And not only am I going to have to give an account for my family, what did I do with my family? But what did I do with the church since I'm in it, since I've been elected an elder?

How do I know who are the souls that I'm required to give an account for? All right. That's a fair question, isn't it? Did anybody who walks through the door? Somebody comes in once and I never see him again.

Am I responsible for their soul? How about somebody comes once a month? No. Those who commit to membership have the special watch over the souls. Those are the people that I am so that I know that I am responsible for their souls.

And not that we don't pray for visitors and everything else. We do. And if visitors come in or even just people who regularly attend and they need something, we'll be right there to minister the best we can.

But our priority is that we know that we have to stand and give an account for those who have committed to membership. That's the importance of membership. Another important part about being a member is you are subjecting yourself, submitting yourself to the discipline of the church.

All right. If you're not a member, you can't be disciplined. And that's not a good thing. Some people say, oh, that's great. I can't be disciplined. No, being subject to the discipline of the church is a good thing for your soul because it's the church watching out for your soul and taking action to keep you on the straight and narrow, so to speak.

Does that make sense? All right. That's why we're so proactive in calling people and saying, if you know that this is where you want to worship, this is where God has called you, then you need to make the commitment to membership.

OK. All right. The proper honor is incumbent on the churches to whom they minister, not only to give them all due respect. Notice how they phrase that. They're going to go on with something else. But in other words, according to the confession, it's kind of like a given.

You know, it's like that's not even the main point. It's presumed that the people in the congregation will give proper honor to the eldership. Looking way towards proper honor, but also to communicate to them of all their good things according to their ability, so as they may have a comfortable supply without being themselves entangled in secular affairs.

This is speaking to the congregation, saying you need to pay your pastors enough so that they don't have to have part time jobs. That's the essence of this. Now, that's great in theory. It doesn't always work out that way.

And I mean, God doesn't punish a congregation if it's small and can't afford, you know, a full time salary. And in fact, in the history of the church, numerous times, in fact, the Apostle Paul was bivocational.

All right. So it's not wrong for a pastor to be bivocational, especially when it's of necessity. But the goal is that the congregation should be able to take care of the elders of the church. That's what that's what this whole thing for the purpose of not entangling themselves in secular affairs, exercising hospitality required by the law of nature, express order of Christ, whereas the day in the day that preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

OK, and in fact, let me let me just pause here for a minute because I have this is you've heard me say this before, but I really have to commend this church because right from the beginning, this church has been extremely generous and and definitely towards the eldership in providing, you know, for the for the needs of the eldership.

It was for the longest time I didn't have this. I only had the job here. Then we went through some tough times and I had to take a second job and now I don't have to do that anymore. So this congregation to be commended for this.

OK. Paragraph 11. Again, this paragraph kind of separates us from the Presbyterians. All right. Although it be incumbent on the bishops or pastors of the churches to be instant and preaching the word by way of office.

That's just what I said before. Pastors, elders, they have to be able to teach and preach. Yet the work of preaching the word is not so peculiarly confined to them. In the Presbyterian system, it is pretty much.

A lot of Presbyterian churches won't have somebody who is not an ordained minister in their pulpit. Not all, but but a lot of them. All right. It's very typical for Reformed Baptists to have what we would call gifted brothers, but that others also gifted and fitted by the Holy Spirit for it and approved and called by the church may ought to perform it.

If we have somebody in this congregation who is gifted and is recognized as being a gifted preacher, they have the ability plus the knowledge to do so. They do not have to be an elder to be in the pulpit.

All right. But the eldership and I can assure you this, the eldership of this church closely guards our pulpit as to who goes into it and who doesn't. OK. And in fact, even some of those who go out and preach on the street have a meeting with the elders and are set aside, even the laying on of hands for that type of gifted preaching as well.

OK, but this makes sense. And this, again, is very typical of Baptist churches, not so much the Presbyterian. The extent of its government extends to all its members. All right. All believers are bound to join themselves to particular churches.

Notice it's very clear that that is a Baptist distinctive is that if you are a believer in Jesus Christ, you need to be a member of a particular congregation. It's OK to visit another church once in a while, but you have to commit to one particular church.

When and where they have opportunity to do so. All right. So all that are admitted into the privileges of the churches are also under the censures and government thereof, according to the rule of Christ.

And again, this is for the benefit of the individual. This is not being heavy handed. This is saying it's for your benefit that you are part of a local body and that you have the mutual benefit of fellowship in the Holy Spirit with the other members.

But also that oversight of the eldership. And if you start to go astray, you will be called. All right. OK, it extends to all its problems. All right. Problem is no church members upon any offense taken by them.

Having performed their duty required of them towards the person, they are offended. Now, notice there's a presumption here. And what's the presumption? You're going to have people that disagree with each other.

What kind of table should we have? No, I'm not going to get it. All right. Well, what what happens when we do have such problems? All right. The prohibition issued ought not ought to disturb. They can't disturb any church order or absent themselves from the assemblies of the church.

What's one of the typical things? Somebody has a disagreement in the church and it's not taken care of immediately. They leave. They go down to the local church on the next corner or wherever. All right.

Or stop administration of any ordinances. All right. Upon the account of such offense at any fellow members, but to wait upon Christ in the further proceeding of the church. In other words, these issues are not necessarily going to be resolved immediately.

All right. And remember, the Apostle Paul, in his letter to the Philippians, singles out two women whose name is in the biblical record for perpetuity. Euodia and Syntyche. So tell them to get along, you know, and he and he commends these women.

He says they've been they've been used by the gospel, you know, the good members of the church. But they're at odds. Paul says the church get them right. You know, stop that. All right. So you have to wait upon Christ in the further proceeding of the church.

Because sometimes these these things don't aren't resolved that quickly. OK. And so what's the rule? Be patient. Be patient. Paragraphs 14 and 15. It's divine warrant as each church and all the members of it are bound to pray continually for the good.

And prosperity of all churches of Christ in all places. That's pretty self-evident. Right. We do that. We'll we'll be doing that in a few minutes here. We have a list of churches that we pray for around the world.

All right. And upon all occasions to further everyone within the bounds of their places and callings and the exercise of their gifts and graces. Now, notice the providential limitations. So the churches, when planted by the providence of God, so they may enjoy opportunity and advantage for it ought to hold communion among themselves.

Now, remember, this is not talking about one church is talking about many churches. This is what we're trying to do with the Spurgeon Fellowship here on Long Island is get other churches that are like minded with us and banding together for fellowship, for service, for impacting the community in certain ways.

OK. And not just in prayer. Prayer is a prerequisite, but actually joining with them for fellowship, communion and other things. Excuse me. All right. And what the whole community among themselves for the peace, increase of love and mutual edification.

Again, this is amongst many local churches. Too often you have a community with many different evangelical churches. They don't even they don't even know about their who's the pastor who's in these churches and whatnot.

And that's a shame. All right. We are going to finish this now in Chapter 15. This is Chapter 14 was the basis for having associations among Reformed Baptist churches. That was the basis for ARBCA, for the Reformed Baptist Network, etc.

OK. Now, what's one of the advantages? You can have advisory meetings or councils. In cases of difficulties or differences. Either in point of doctrine or administration. We're in the churches in general are concerned or any one church.

All right. Let's say somebody in this congregation has a problem with the eldership. They go to the eldership and the eldership dismisses it, doesn't deal with it. All right. If you have an association of churches, that person can go to another church and ask for the eldership of another church to come and intervene.

All right. That's the whole purpose of it. All right. Because let's face it, we're all human. And you can have an eldership that some at one point maybe has blinders on. It's very possible. All right.

Talk about in their peace union and edification or any member of member churches are injured. In or by any proceedings in censures, not agreeable to truth and order. We've actually taken advantage of that here.

We had somebody who was coming against the eldership, coming against the diaconate, was causing a disruption. This is going back a number of years ago, back in the old building, way back. And we called the elders from Grace Reform Baptist Church in East Haven, Connecticut.

And they came down and they helped mediate the situation. And it was extremely helpful and very beneficial to the church. So like with our not belonging to our faith. We could still do it just using one church.

I mean, we could go. There's a number of churches within a reasonable distance. The reason we went to Grace Reform Baptist Church in there was we felt that our relationship with Grace Reform Baptist in Merrick was so close that the member would feel that we were ganging up on him because the elders there were.

Well, they're just a relationship. Let me put it that way. It's so close with us. So that's the whole idea. So we consented to go outside of the local area. But it was a 1689 church so that the criteria that they would use to make it render a decision would be the same.

OK. Part B. It is according to the mind of Christ that many churches holding communion together do by their messengers meet to consider and give their advice in or about the matter in difference. So, in other words, you could send more than one messenger from another church to come and sit in a council to hear testimony and to give advice.

All right. And that to be reported by any other any churches that are concerned. All right. You know where this could come into. Suppose suppose one of the churches that we are in fellowship with all of a sudden starts teaching heresy.

It would be incumbent upon us to go to them and try to convince them that what they are doing is wrong. OK. And so that's why you and we might take other churches with us. You know, I'll give you a perfect example of that.

When when when Harold Camping started spouting all his nonsense. All right. On family radio. The pastor of Grace Reformed Baptist Church at that time was Mike Gaydosh. Bill Schisco from the Orthodox Presbyterian Church and Bob.

Bob Cameron, I believe it was from from New Jersey. The three of them flew out and had a meeting with him to try to reason with him. He refused to listen, but at least they made the attempt. OK. Paragraph 15 C.

And this is important. Notice the strict limitations. How be it these messengers assembled are not entrusted with any church power properly so-called. So in other words, if we have somebody come in and say the eldership in this church is wrong, you've got to do it this way.

They have no right to say that. All they can do is say we've examined it. We think the eldership is wrong. And this is what we would advise. It's only an advisory capacity or any jurisdiction over the churches themselves.

This, again, is where we differ from the Presbyterian form of government. There is no authority higher than the elderships. The eldership answers to the congregation. OK. To exercise any censures either over any churches or persons or to impose their determination on the churches or officers.

Strictly an advisory. Yes. Yeah, because they have a presbytery that oversees. That's why they wouldn't call in other churches, because the presbytery would oversee what this particular session of the Presbyterian church would do.

If they think they're wrong, they would be called, called in to make some sort of decision. And that they do have church authority, ecclesiastical authority. So if a presbytery tells a local church, you've got to do this, they have to do that.

We have another church come in, says you're wrong, you shouldn't be doing that. We can say, eh, take a hike. Not really, but OK. All right. Now that finishes the confession. It's eight o 'clock, but I just wanted to show you this.

Westminster Confession on the Visible Church and the Place of Children

This is. Now, notice something here, the visible church. Now, this is their definition. This is the Westminster Confession of Faith. Which is also Catholic universal under the gospel, not confined to one nation as before under the law.

That's pretty similar to what we have in ours. Consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion. We agree. And of their children. This is where we part company. If you look at this, what they're saying is they are members of the church.

They are in the covenant. And Baptists distinct to say no. They are sanctified. They can come into the congregation. They have all the protections from being in a covenant household. But they are not members until they make a profession of it.

OK, but I just wanted to show you that.

Questions. Yes. So that last slide that you were on about the Westminster Confession. Yes. Is that basically saying that like the children are saved because their parents have a confession of faith?

No, no, no. They they're very. And I want to be very careful about this. The Lutheran Church would say that the Lutheran Church would say that because by virtue of their baptism, they are saved. It's virtually baptismal regeneration.

OK, but the Presbyterian say, no, they're not. We're not saying they're saved, but we're presuming that they will be. And so they include them in the covenant and in the church. And what they're saying is they have to disprove it at some point for them not to be continuing as part of the church.

And of course, we look at Jeremiah 31, 31, you know, where they shall all know me and say that. No, the new covenant is a different covenant, a better covenant. Plus the kids, the kids do get the sacraments.

No, no, no. Slow down. Not necessarily. Oh, oh, the Presbyterian Church that we've been through. OK, but there's two ways there. That's a big argument within the Presbyterian Church today, whether they pay to communion or not.

The Orthodox Presbyterian Church does not give communion to infants or even when they're old enough. They want to hear a profession of faith first. OK, yes. Whereas some like the Federal Vision people, they do believe in paid communion.

Soon as a child is old enough to take the bread and drink the wine or in their case, probably grape juice, they give it to them based upon the presumption here. But no, it would be unfair to say that they all do that.

They don't. OK, any other questions? You can see the big difference here. This is one of the biggest hallmarks here, the difference between our Reformed Presbyterian brothers and sisters and Reformed Baptists.

Yes, I always found it funny when R .C. would say he's an independent.

Yeah, an independent Presbyterian. That's an oxymoron. That's like saying I have a four sided triangle. I'll get cards and letters of any Presbyterian. Here's that one.