March 6, 2019 Show with Todd Pruitt on “Gender, Sexuality & What it Means to be Human”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your.

Own questions.

Now here's our host Chris Arntzen.

Good afternoon.

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania,.

Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at

ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this sixth day

of March 2019 and today we have a first -time guest

who is supposed to be calling in, should have called in already, I'm not sure what the holdup is

yet because he did confirm today that he is going to be on the air.

I may have to go to an early commercial break and call and find out what the

holdup is.

But we are going to be joined, God willing, momentarily by Todd Pruitt, co -host

of the Mortification of Spin podcast and lead pastor of Covenant

Presbyterian Church in Harrisonburg, Virginia.

We're going to be discussing today the theme of an upcoming conference where Todd Pruitt is

on the speaking roster, gender, sexuality and what it means to be human.

And this is going to be a conference held March

29th and 30th, so it's coming up right around the corner, at the Covenant Presbyterian

Church of Harrisonburg, Virginia.

And we'll be giving you all the details on how to attend that conference momentarily,

but it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Todd Pruitt.

Hey, Chris, good to be with you.

It's great to have you with us today.

Before we go into not only the theme of our program today

on gender, sexuality and what it means to be human, and before we get your personal testimony, which we normally do with

first -time guests, why don't you tell our listeners something about Covenant Presbyterian Church of

Harrisonburg, Virginia?

Sure.

Covenant Presbyterian Church is a church in the PCA, the Presbyterian Church in America.

We were planted in the early 80s by another PCA church in the

Charlottesville, Virginia area that saw a need here in this part of the Shenandoah Valley for a

PCA church, and so they planted Covenant Presbyterian as a church plant,

and in 1985, I believe, a Covenant Presbyterian

body of elders and deacons, and so

we've been around formally as a church since 1985.

It's a wonderful congregation.

My family and I have been here for about five and a half years, and

it's just a marvelous congregation.

The Lord's given us a great group of elders, wonderful,

wonderful staff.

We've just loved it.

God's placed us in a part.

We have everything from

as

well as immigrants, not only from across Mexico and Latin America, but also

our region of the country is one of the places

where the government has been helping refugees from northern Africa, Middle

East, and other Arab -speaking nations.

Evangelistically,

this country is the Shenandoah Valley.

It's the most beautiful place in the world.

Well, it's good to feel that way about where you live and minister, and if anybody wants more

details on this church, go to cov -pres

.org, and I'll be, hopefully, I will remember to repeat that later on throughout the broadcast,

cov, as in victory, dash pres .org.

Now let us know about.

The Mortification of Spin, this podcast that you co -host.

For the Alliance of Confessing

Evangelicals, they

had

reached out

to women and

helping

women become doctrinally and biblically discerning, and we saw a

real...

We interviewed

bloggers

at Mortification of Spin, and we have a lot of fun.

We interview a lot of people, interview author

materials in people's hands, and every once in a while get controversial, which can be fun and not so

fun, depending on...

Now, explain the title.

Obviously, it's a takeoff, a comical takeoff on Mortification of Sin, and

Spin, of course, is, correct me if I'm wrong, it's kind of a nickname for

what people in the media do when they exaggerate, perhaps, or add their own personal

views to what the reality is.

So tell us about how you combine these two things and what the title means.

Yeah, well, it's funny because.

Every once in a while, people will get frustrated with us, maybe for being a little bit too edgy or introducing

some sarcasm here and there, and we just have to remind them of the title of the program.

It's Mortification of Spin, and every once in a while, yeah, we have to put...

So, you know, kind of

the primary areas of our critique is

conservative reformed or reformed

-ish, maybe

not what they ought to be, point that out, and sometimes people find

that helpful, and sometimes people get upset about that.

Yeah, you're absolutely right, it's a wordplay on John Owen's

volume called On the Mortification of Sin, and due to Carl Truman's

witty and dry English sense of humor, he very quickly came up with

the idea of calling it Mortification of Spin.

And so that's what we try to do.

You know, we will critique the world in terms of the ways that

it... if we try to

say...

Well, I'm hoping one day, perhaps I'm not hoping,.

But I'm wondering if I'll ever see a church sign that says something like the first reform -ish.

Church in such and such town.

I would recommend that there's some churches that consider that as a title.

You know, just enough Reformed theology to be in the club, but departing from.

Reformed practice, maybe, something like that.

Yeah.

Well, remind Carl that I want him back on the show.

He's been on my show a number of times already, seems to enjoy it because he wrote a very

wonderful commendation for Iron Trip and Zion Radio, and I wanted to get him back on as well to help promote this

conference that you are speaking at.

Perhaps, before we go into your personal salvation testimony, we can have you give a

summary of this conference where you are going to be joined

by Carl Truman and others on the speaking roster.

And this is the conference on gender, sexuality, and what it means to be human.

The Blue Ridge Conference, the Blue Ridge Bible.

Conference.

The Blue Ridge Bible Conference, uh -huh, yeah.

So the Blue Ridge Bible Conference,

two years ago, it dealt with the speakers

Gregory Beal, a New Testament scholar from Westminster Seminary, and Jonathan Master, who is a systematic

theologian from Cairn University.

Yeah, I've interviewed all those folks.

Okay, there you go.

Yeah, and they're wonderful.

And so that was our very first Blue Ridge Bible Conference.

And for this second one, I had decided really immediately who's

going to be the subject for the next one, gender and

sexuality.

And the speakers are, Carl Truman is going to be delivering two addresses.

Tim Geiger, who is the president of Harvest USA, is going to be delivering two of the addresses, and then I'm

going to deliver one address.

And some of the newest

manifestations in terms of

homosexuality and the gender, contributing primarily to the

gender confusion issue.

How we got to begin to, quote, you

know, identify as a woman.

How we got to the place where now this has become challenges.

This record, Tim

Geiger of Harvest USA, and if anybody's familiar with Harvest USA, it's a wonderful, wonderful ministry

for those

speaking about

sexuality.

And he's going to get into some of the issues that we're dealing with in the PCA, like

this gay but celibate, you know, people

saying, I'm a gay Christian, I'm celibate, but I'm a gay Christian.

And he's going to talk about why that's problematic.

You know, because oftentimes, what's deceptive about this tool

and say, hey, you know, we agree, homosexual behavior is wrong.

Tim's going to help

us to navigate that.

And then I'm going to give an address on how the Bible gives us

a better story of human identity than the world can give us, and how that

plays out in terms of sexual ethics and gender identity, and for

a lot of people.

And that's why so many

change their minds on these.

And we're going to see

kind of the doctrinal why the Bible's

clear.

Why does God command that sexual intimacy be only within a marriage, and why

is marriage between only one man and one woman?

We're going to see very clearly in the creation narrative, the theological and

the intellectual.

Great.

Well, we'll be giving more information about.

How to attend this conference, Gender, Sexuality, and What It Means to Be

Human, March 29th through the 30th at Covenant Presbyterian Church in Harrisonburg, Virginia, throughout the

broadcast.

But I might as well give you some details now so you can write them down

before I forget to do it later.

If you go to alliancenet .org, alliancenet .org, and you click on

events, just scroll down until you see Gender, Sexuality, and What It Means to Be Human, the Blue Ridge

Bible Conference 2019, and all of the details on how you can attend will be there.

And also, if you have a calendar nearby, or a piece of paper, or your cell phone, or your computer, whatever

else you might want to mark this date down, on Monday the 25th of

March, God willing, we're going to be joined by Tim Geiger, one of the speakers at this

conference, along with our guests today, Todd Pruitt and Carl Truman.

We don't have a date yet for Carl Truman, we're working on that right now, but we would love, as I said before, to

have Carl back.

I'm going to give our email address right now for anybody who would like to join us on the air with a question for our guest

Todd Pruitt on Gender, Sexuality, and What It Means to Be Human.

Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And I can see with a topic like this, gender, sexuality, and what it means to be human, that

we may very well get people who have personal and private questions that involve them

remaining anonymous, and I understand that and I will grant you that request, of course.

But if it's just a general question, please give us at least your city, your first name, your city and state, and country of

residence.

Well, as a first -time guest, Todd, as we normally do on Orange Prep and Zarn Radio, we have

our first -time guests give a summary of their salvation testimony, beginning with what kind

of religious atmosphere, if any, where you were raised, and also

what kind of providential circumstances that our Sovereign Lord raised up in your life that

drew you to himself and saved you.

Yeah, I was very blessed to be raised.

In a Christian family, and so I heard the Gospel all of my life.

I was born and raised Southern Baptist, and I was very fortunate to

be raised in Southern Baptist.

The Gospel was preached faithfully.

I was never subject to legalism.

You know, when people criticize a lot of conservative churches for being legalistic, I

never learned legalism.

I never was taught anything other than the Biblical Gospels that were justified by grace through faith

alone.

I was not in any way raised in a Calvinistic kind of church, but they

got the Gospel right, and so I'm always thankful for that.

And so, having heard the Gospel all of my life, and by God's grace,

having my heart pricked by the...

I remember, as a nine -year -old kid, feeling really bad about sin.

And again, not because I was in a legalistic environment, but because I was in an environment

where Jesus was loved and the Gospel was preached, and I was a well -behaved kid, but I had

this weight, this burden on me that, of course, as I

look back, and so though I was raised believing, and if you would have

asked me at any time prior to my being nine years old, do you believe in Jesus, I would have said, of course I do.

I did, but I would tell you that that moment of rebirth

happened when I was nine years old, and I had, you know,

and using the language of, you know, that I was raised with, you know, saying, you know, hey, I want to be saved.

I think I'm ready to be saved.

And, oh, over a period of about two weeks, they just took me through the Roman road, you know.

My parents were ordinary Christian people, but they knew to not

just turn me over to a children's minister and say, hey, help our kid get saved.

They knew to, each evening, have me hop on bed with them, and the three of us sat

on top of their bed, and they just took me through the Roman road, and we would talk about those verses each night, what they

meant, and Christ, with the help of my dad, and

was baptized after that, and, you know, that's in God's providence.

He gave me parents who had me in a church, and He gave me

parents working in my heart,

and they knew to take me to the Scriptures, and they knew which Scriptures to take me to.

And it was in, it was right near the end of high school where I really began to sense an

inward call to ministry.

Some of the men I trusted, they confirmed that they saw that in me,

and from there on, I went to Bible college and went to seminary, and later on, much

later on, turned into a Presbyterian, so.

Well, we forgive you for that.

I understand.

My Baptist brothers have been patient with me.

Well, if it came down to being a Reformed Baptist myself,

yeah, attending or joining a church that was an Arminian Baptist or a

biblically sound Reformed Presbyterian congregation, and I don't necessarily mean the denomination

Reformed Presbyterian, although I love those folks too, have a lot of friends in there and interview them, I would

choose the Presbyterian church over the Arminian Baptist church.

Yeah, yeah, and we, you know, you talk to any PCA pastor, and he'll tell you,

um, you know, a not insignificant number of their members and attendees,

you know, for some of the very reasons you just outlined, are attending, and some have joined, you know,

PCA church because, or another conservative, they love the Word, and they want to be

where the Word is preached, and they love to be led biblically by a plurality of

men, and they want to be where that happens, and in the church I serve, a significant number of our members,

in their understanding, in all

kinds of places, and so I'm

thankful.

We can't go with you on baptism,

but we love this church, and we want to stand with you and pledge ourselves to being a part

of this fellowship and doctrine of our church, and

are able to be just wonderful, wonderful.

That happens in PCA churches.

Across the country.

Amen.

Well, by the way, I think I forgot to give our listeners the website for

Mortification of Spin, the podcast that is co -hosted by our guest Todd Pruitt.

You can go to alliancenet .org, alliancenet .org, forward slash

M -O -S, which stands for Mortification of Spin, forward slash podcast.

So it's alliancenet .org, forward slash M -O -S, which stands for

Mortification of Spin, forward slash podcast.

Okay, once again, I will repeat our email address if you'd like to join us on the air with a question

for Todd Pruitt about gender, sexuality, and what it means to be human, and that is

chrisarnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, city, and state, and country of residence, and only remain anonymous if your question involves personal

and private matter.

I think one of the reasons that this theme that we are addressing today, which is

also the theme of your conference, one of the reasons it's such a controversial issue in the church

is there is a tendency of Christians, because we are all sinners,

that we are going to fall very often on one extreme

or the other in regard to our reaction to sin involving

gender, sexuality, and all things under the umbrella of

sexual sin and immorality.

We have, on the one hand, unforgiving, merciless Christians

who are filled with pride and self -righteousness about their own

belief that they themselves are sexually pure, and you may have

a very mean -spirited approach to this issue or these

issues.

Obviously, the gospel itself will offend sinners, but very

often Christians add their own offensiveness to the gospel.

And then you have, on the other end of the spectrum, people who are

compassionate and kind and merciful and loving, but they extend or

twist biblical compassion to a level

of, for lack of a better term, candy -coating the sin or taking away

the sting of the biblical command to repent and so on,

that they wind up giving safe

harbor to those committing sexual sins where there is

no challenge to them or even command to them to repent.

They think that they think that their behavior may be completely acceptable,

or they think that they're completely acceptable to have a proclivity towards sexual

sin as long as they don't physically consummate it.

So, you know, you have these extremes, and I think that's why we have controversies in the body of Christ,

even in our Reformed denominations over this.

Do you think that what I said so far is accurate?

Yeah, I do.

And, you know, unfortunately,.

Because of the obnoxious behavior of some I would

agree with in terms of their theology, but because of some maybe obnoxious behavior,

they don't get a proper hearing because they've behaved like jerks in the

conversation.

I am very, very willing for the gospel and God's truth and God's

standards on sexual ethics to be a source of offense.

I just want to make sure, as you alluded to earlier, I just want to make sure that my own behavior is not the source of

offense.

And so, you know, we really, you know, we can be loving in how we

talk about these things, but we do have to be clear, knowing that on what the

Bible teaches about human relationships is going to cause a stir.

People are going to be offended and

just have to know that we're going to be treated as indecent.

You know, interesting, I've been reading some,

one of the ways that Christians in the first two centuries were condemned by Rome was by being

immoral, and one of the reasons they were called immoral is because they did not participate in

the immorality of Rome, and so Roman citizens and even emperors would

heap these aspersions upon the character of those Christians precisely because they were not

swept up into the debauchery of Roman society.

Not much has changed in those terms.

You know, now we have elected officials calling Christians who believe what Christians have always believed

indecent.

Sexual

ethics

particularly.

People respond with a lot of anger.

Don't you think that also there is a disturbing trend

on the part of those on the left end of the spectrum, even within conservative evangelicalism?

I'm not talking about mainline apostate liberals.

Right.

More progressive, yeah.

Yeah, more progressive conservatives where those involved in what

has become to be called the LGBTQ, and I can't remember what else

might be added to that now, quote -unquote community, people are being

treated as if they are a separate category of humans,

and they are being treated as if they are representing

an ethnic group or a group of people who have the same

skin color, so on.

They are being treated in a different way than perhaps heterosexual

adulterers and fornicators would be.

They're being treated with more of a kid -glove approach.

Oh, absolutely.

And things are candy -coated, things are softened because we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings,

and of course, in the 21st century, we don't want to lose our jobs.

We don't want to be fined for tens of thousands of dollars.

There's all kinds of ramifications of giving the appearance

that we are being mean -spirited and cruel and harsh to those involved in

homosexuality or what has been called transgenderism and transvestism and

all that kind of thing.

Yeah, well, sadly, what's been happening is, you're right, is you've got

moderate conservatives, this kind of category.

As you said, we're not talking about left -wing liberals.

We're talking about people in my own denomination, for instance, the PCA, who would be

considered very conservative by people in the PCUSA,

crossing some lines in terms of human

identity, human sexuality, sexual identity, same -sex attraction, and we're

giving away grounds that we cannot afford to give away.

So, just as an illustration of that would be the ReVoice conference that happened last summer in

St. Louis at a PCA church, Memorial

PCA, and the

organizers and speakers primarily were self -identified.

They would refer to themselves as gay Christian celibates because they will say, we

believe that sex is only for marriage between a man and a woman.

So, we hear that.

We say, okay, good.

They believe what we believe there.

But there are some really important differences, and not least of all is what you

identified in terms of they have adopted the world's

human identity.

The human identity can be qualified in terms of a sexual proclivity, and so therefore

there is an LGBTQ community.

It might sound like a subtle shift, but it's actually a major shift

so that goes from an act that is committed

to an identity.

I would argue to go from...

it's a far bigger leap to embrace homosexuality as a human

identity, that once you embrace that, that there are, quote, gay Christians,

that my sexual attraction to members of the same sex is who I am.

It's my given identity.

That it's actually a much proving of the behavior.

If you know the history of the denominations that are now homosexual,

you know, they didn't go from orthodoxy to embrace of homosexuality overnight.

They all walked this road of first saying, well, we grant it as an identity, but still forbid the behavior,

and then at some point forbidding the behavior is telling

people you cannot live out.

We agree with your assessment of who you are, but you can't live it out.

That at some point can't hold.

At some point that has to give way, and so when I see in my own denomination

pastors who are granting

this new category of human personhood, namely that homosexuality is a

marker of human identity, when I see our own doing that, it causes me and many

others a great.

Deal of concern.

Yes, there seems to be an abandonment or an

ignoring of the fact that when we read about

even same -sex attraction in the New Testament, it is really

described as a curse.

People are turned over to this lust, and even the burning of their

hearts for one another, burning in their hearts for one another, that in and of itself is

wickedness and unnatural before any physical consummation of the act occurs.

Right, and one of the mistakes,.

What I would call, you know, the revoiced theology, the gay but

celibate, and this is, you know, folks like

Wesley Hill, who's a theologian and has done some really good work in terms of theology.

He's a very competent, highly competent theologian, but he is one who is very open about the fact

that he is a gay Christian who is celibate.

So Wesley Hill is a major voice in this.

Nate Collins, who's a Southern Baptist, is the head, and

so you've got various folks involved in this.

And what they give

an identity, if you read Nate Collins, as

we've come to learn very early, is that he believes that

his given identity and that his, quote, gayness

will be preserved in some way in the age to come, in the New Heaven and the New Earth.

Now, again, he says that acting out in

that husband and wife, in the context of marriage,

created this identity, which is, but there's something about my same -sex attraction that is essentially good.

Now, there may be some brokenness to it, but some part of it will be preserved.

Now, anyone's guess, I suppose, but these are very disturbing

implications.

And again, once you accept that, once you say that this

same -sex attraction is not inherently sinful and coming out of an inherently sinful place,

then ultimately, I don't know how you can maintain for long a position that says gay but

celibate.

I just don't know how you can do that.

But that's kind of the third way they're trying to navigate.

We have to go to a break right now, and it will be a fairly brief break, and you

can send in your questions to chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com for Todd

Pruitt.

But before I go to the break, I'm going to read a question for you, Todd, and then you can answer it when we return.

We have Ted from Tuscaloosa, Alabama, who says, all

right, at the risk of being dismissed as some raging egalitarian or feminist,

I'll bite.

Perhaps I've misread the details, but it seems that you're giving a conference on gender, sexuality,

and what it means to be human, and of the five presentations, surprise, all of

them are being given by men.

To use the vernacular of the day, can you unpack that for us a bit?

I mean, couldn't you even trot Amy out for a

courtesy talk?

I guess Amy Byrd is who he's speaking about.

After all, you brought her onto your podcast ostensibly for some gender

balance.

Okay.

Thank you, feminist Ted.

I mean, Ted.

I'm kidding, Ted.

But we'll have you answer that question when we come back from the first break.

If anybody else would like to join us, again, chrisarnsen at gmail .com is our email address.

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He represents many Christians in serious injury matters all over the country.

Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.

He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy, and currently his firm has over 100

cases that have settled for one million dollars or more, and in approximately 10

different states.

In Illinois, his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history.

In New York, his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the Law Journal.

If you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state, I recommend that you

call Dan.

Consultations are free.

There is no fee unless you win.

Dan Buttafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878.

Or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

That's chrisarnson.

At gmail .com.

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Their advertising dollars are helping Iron Trip and Zion Radio to remain on the air.

And we are now back with Todd Pruitt, and we are discussing the

upcoming conference, the theme of the upcoming conference towards the end of this month,

and that is gender, sexuality, and what it means to be human, which is also the theme of the Bible

conference, the Blue Ridge Bible Conference on March 29th and 30th at the

Covenant Presbyterian Church in Harrisonburg, Virginia.

And if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

And before the break, as you probably remember, Todd, we had Ted in Tuscaloosa, Alabama,

basically asking why you don't have any women on the speaking roster when the whole

theme involves gender.

Yeah, first of all, I'm not

for one thing.

Secondly, the topic is not just gender

in terms of understanding the current gender chaos.

Now, originally, Rosaria Butterfield was going to be with us, and she had

to remember

that it's going on that week, and so

she'd be

a part of the weekend.

And she had to back out.

I did not quickly rush out and just toss in another woman so that there

would be a woman.

So, Ted, there you go.

Hope that satisfies.

Yeah, just because you might believe it is completely appropriate and not in

violation of a complementarian understanding of leadership in the Church

doesn't mean you are required to have a woman involved at every conference

on the speaking roster.

So, I mean, that's when you get, you used a very good term there in the beginning, that you're not in

favor of tokenism.

And that's, we're just imitating the world when we start saying that we've got to have a

person of this gender or this skin color or of this ethnicity when we're

doing a conference.

We're just borrowing or imitating the world at that point, I think.

Right. Right. Exactly.

Well, thank you for writing in, Ted, and keep listening to Iron Trip and Zion Radio in Tuscaloosa, Alabama and beyond,

and keep sending in questions.

And we have Gordy in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, who says, in

your opinion, what is the best approach to engaging in dialogue on this subject without compromise,

yet not coming across as uncaring or insensitive?

So, basically, he's asking you to do something that is absolutely impossible.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, that's the thing.

You know, I mean, you know, it becomes clear they're

holding the line

on biblical sexual

ethics.

You know, some of you may

remember when, you know, Rick Warren was disinvited from delivering

a, years ago,

marriage should only be between a man and a woman.

Now you have to work hard to be more winsome, if you like, than Rick Warren.

And yet, you know, he received, you know, you would have thought that Heinrich

Himmler was being, you

know, just don't be a jerk.

You know, you don't have to yell at people and you don't have to use epithets.

You know, when somebody says, you know, I'll see people on social media, you

know, refer to, you know, quote, sodomites.

And I say, okay, you know, if you want to use that

to agree on the matter, that's fine.

But if you refer to the person you're wanting to talk to as a sodomite, you might not get a hearing,

you know.

What I tell people is, you can say every single thing the

way you want to say it.

You can't do both.

Now, I will say this.

At the conference, say very much what they want to say,

and it'll be very clear, compromising, and

it's going to be done in a Christlike way.

If an unrepentant, two things,

one of two things are going to happen.

They're either going to get really hurt or they'll

repent.

But, you know,

you can go very meekly and, you know, with your head hung low and say, I personally

believe that homosexuality is a sin, and that's just my personal opinion.

If you put it across that way,.

You're going to be savage.

That's the Joel Olsteen approach.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean,.

You're going to be savage, say it in the most reluctant way.

If you apologize for holding that view, you're still going to be savage.

And I think the reason why the opposition is so, so swift,

I think

the reason why the criticism is so vehement,

human nature, when we know that we

demand to have man's blessing.

And one of the things that I try to talk to people about in terms of the issue of homosexuality is that

they know it's wrong, because they can't not know it's wrong.

Now, yes, there eventually comes a time, Romans chapter 1, where people are turned over to a wicked and depraved mind, but

I would argue that just like abortion, homosexuality is one of those things that people can't not know

is wrong.

And that's one of the reasons for the vehemence for.

That.

Yeah, I think that Gordy in

Mechanicsburg has two words that are

key in his question, coming across.

There's a difference between what is the best approach to engaging in dialogue on this

subject without compromise, and not coming across as uncaring or

insensitive, there's a difference between that and not being uncaring and insensitive.

Right, right.

Yep.

Yep.

And I was asked recently by someone who's in ministry,

it's going to be kind of, oh, are you guys going to be gentle?

Of course we're going to be gentle.

You know, I said, anyone, you

know, in attendance, that

every Christian in that room struggles with some kind of temptation, some kind of sin, and that we

are for them, and that the reason why we're

going to be speaking, if

anybody's familiar with Tim Geiger's ministry, you know, Tim Geiger's going to be clear, he's going to be

biblical, you know, and my

hope and my suspicion is that we're going to do a decent job in that conference of,

and so on these

matters of the gospel, and the

hope of Christ for those.

We have to go to our

midway break right now.

Oh,.

By the way, thanks a lot, Gordy in Mechanicsburg.

Keep listening to On Your Trip Insign radio and spreading the word in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania and beyond.

We're going to our midway break right now.

This is the longer than normal break because Grace Life Radio in Lake City, Florida, 90

.1 FM, they air this program and they have to localize On

Your Trip Insign radio to Lake City, Florida, so they use this time, while we are airing our

commercials that are heard globally, they are airing their own commercials and public service

announcements to localize On Your Trip Insign radio to Lake City, Florida.

So, please use this time wisely during this elongated break by not only writing down

information about our advertisers, the information provided by our advertisers,

so that you can more frequently and more successfully patronize them, because we depend

on our advertisers' advertising dollars to exist, and the more you

successfully and more frequently patronize them, the more likely they are going to remain our advertisers, which means the more likely

we will remain on the air.

So, please write down the information they provide, but also write down questions for Todd Pruitt,

and our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com,

and as always, give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves

a personal and private matter.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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Hi,

I'm Stephan Lindblad, Assistant Professor of Systematic Theology at IRBS

Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas.

I accepted this call to teach at the seminary because I'm firmly convinced that the people of

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I'm excited to be teaching such subjects as the nature of theology and the doctrine of Scripture

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Our churches and our people need to be well -grounded in these truths.

Indeed, future ministers of the gospel need to understand these truths in order to proclaim them

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If you want to learn more about our program, visit us online at irbsseminary .org.

Chris Sorensen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here.

I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years.

His name is Dan Buttafuoco.

Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer, but not the type that typically comes to mind.

Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself.

Recently, he wrote a book titled Consider the Evidence for the Bible.

Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword.

Dan also has a master's degree in theology.

Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states.

He represents many Christians in serious injury matters all over the country.

Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.

He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy, and currently his firm has over 100

cases that have settled for $1 million or more and in approximately 10

different states.

In Illinois, his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history.

In New York, his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the Law Journal.

If you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state, I recommend that you

call Dan.

Consultations are free.

There is no fee unless you win.

Dan Buttafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878.

1 -800 -669 -4878.

Or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail

.com.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

I would like to introduce you to my good friends Todd and Patty Jennings at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley

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We are back now, and we will be joining Todd Pruitt again to

continue our discussion on the theme of the conference where he is speaking,

Gender, Sexuality, and What it Means to be Human at the Covenant Presbyterian Church in

Harrisonburg, Virginia.

That is going to be held on March 29th and 30th, but before we return to our discussion, we just have some

special events coming up that we want you to be aware of.

First of all, the Striving for Eternity Ministries, founded by my dear friend Andy

Rapoport.

That is going to be held, or should I say, their conference on Sanctification Through

Suffering is going to be held March 15th through the 16th.

And this is going to be held in Freehold, New Jersey.

The speakers include Justin Peters, Frank Mullis, Joe Suozzo, and Colleen Sharp

of Theology Gals Podcast.

That's Sanctification Through Suffering.

If you would like to attend this conference, March 15th through the 16th in Freehold, New Jersey, go to strivingforeternity

.org, strivingforeternity .org.

And then, coming up shortly after that, is the conference that we have been addressing today

on Gender, Sexuality, and What it Means to be Human.

The speakers include Tim Geiger, Todd Pruitt, our guest today, and Carl Truman,

March 29th through the 30th at the Covenant Presbyterian Church of Harrisonburg, Virginia.

This is an event of the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals and the Blue

Ridge Bible Conferences.

If you'd like to attend this event, go to alliancenet .org, alliancenet .org, click on events,

and then scroll down to Gender, Sexuality, and What it Means to be Human, the Blue Ridge Bible Conference

2019.

That's March 29th and the 30th.

Then, coming up after that, I will be attending, God willing, the East Coast

Ministers Conference being held by the Banner of Truth.

That's going to be held in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania at Elizabethtown College, May 28th through the 30th.

I believe in the Holy Spirit is the theme of the Banner of Truth East Coast Ministers Conference.

And the speakers include Jeff Kingswood, Terry Johnson, David Vaughan, a

Reformed Baptist missionary in France, Dr. Stephen J. Nichols, who is the president of Reformation Bible

College, the college founded by the late R .C. Sproul of Ligonier Ministries, Michael

Morales, and Chad Vegas.

And please, if you attend, ask around and say, where's Chris Arnzen of Iron Trip and Iron Radio?

Because I would love to meet all of my listeners who attend this event and I do

intend to be there.

So, unless God has other plans, I will be in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania, May 28th through

the 30th at the East Coast Ministers Conference of the Banner of Truth.

If you want to register yourself, just go to banneroftruth .org,

banneroftruth .org, click on events, and you will see a number of different events

listed.

And I will be at, as I said, the East Coast Ministers Conference, May 28th through the 30th in

Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania, God willing.

And there are other events that the Banner of Truth is conducting in different parts of the United States and also

different parts of the world.

So, if you see a conference that the Banner of Truth is having closer to where you

live, like on the West Coast or in the United Kingdom, you can get details on registering for those

conferences.

But I will be, God willing, at the East Coast Ministers Conference, May 28th through the 30th in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania, and I hope to see

you there.

And then I am going to be heading in December, the 19th and the 20th,

I will be heading to New York City, Manhattan, to be specific.

The Foundations Conference is being held in Manhattan again, and I love this conference.

And I urge you, if you'd like to go to this conference, to register as quickly as possible because the venue only

holds about 200 people.

The speakers include Dr. Stephen J. Lawson, who you just heard recently on the air here,

promoting the New Covenant Church NYC, a sponsor of Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

Reverend Jeff Thomas, one of the finest preachers alive.

What a powerful preacher and what a humble man of God Reverend Jeff Thomas is from Wales.

Richard Caldwell, Jr., Reverend Armin Tomasian, who I am predicting is going to be a household name

within the next decade.

He is such a gifted young man, such a powerful preacher, such a biblically faithful preacher.

I just love hearing this man proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Andrew Quigley and Paul Washer has been recently added to the speaking roster

at the Foundations Conference, December 19th and the 20th in Manhattan.

And as I said, they have a small venue, so if you want to attend this event, register as quickly as possible, go to

thefoundationsconference .com.

Thefoundationsconference .com.

Last but not least, if you love Iron Trip and Zion Radio, you don't want us to disappear from the airwaves, you

love the topics and guests that we feature on the show that sometimes are never heard anywhere else, you love

sharing the free downloadable mp3s of our interviews with your family, friends, and loved ones, well, please

go to irontripandzionradio .com, click support, then click to donate

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You can donate instantly with a debit or credit card by doing that, and you can also send in a check the old

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Never do that.

Never put your family in financial jeopardy in order to financially support Iron Trip and Zion

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Those two things are commands of God supporting your church and your home.

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click to donate now.

If you want to advertise with us, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com, and as long as whatever it is you want to promote is compatible

with what I believe, we would love to help you launch an ad campaign.

You don't have to believe identically with me, you just need to be promoting something that is compatible with what I believe.

And if you are not in a bible -believing church, if you're not a member of a local bible -believing church and you're

not prayerfully seeking for one, you are living in rebellion against God.

So please, if you can't find a church, you need help, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail

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email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put, I need a church home, in the subject line, or something

similar.

We are now back with our guest, Todd Pruitt, and we

are discussing the controversial theme, gender sexuality, and what it means to be human.

If you have a question, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

We have Lou in Sharpsburg, Georgia, and Lou says, you mentioned Revoice.

There was another conference called Living Out, hosted, I believe, by

Sam Albury, with Tim Keller as one of the speakers.

It was held last year.

Am I correct in being very alarmed about the content and speakers who I

just mentioned?

Thank you.

Why didn't you ask something controversial, Lou?

Yeah, yeah, you know, I know.

That Sam Albury is associated with them.

Sam has done some very good work in terms of

reasserting biblical sexual ethics.

He's been very clear on that.

But again, I'm not sure where he is in terms of some of these

more particular issues that we're delving into, such as how we think

of morally

neutral human identity.

I don't know where he really can't give it.

And I have to be honest.

In fact, I did a program with Phil Johnson, the executive director of Grace to You, the ministry of John

MacArthur.

I did a program where we evaluated Tim Keller's participation in the Veritas Forum

a number of years ago.

And Tim Keller did an absolutely abysmal, horrible job answering

questions about homosexuality.

And I hear, I believe, he may have given some kind of a retraction to it after

that.

But the thing is still circulating on YouTube, and I don't see anything officially,

you know, where he is publicly making a very bold statement of any apology or

correction.

It was really horrendous for somebody who is as knowledgeable of the scriptures as he

is.

Yep.

And I'm

not making a comment about his care in

a way that was very cowardly in that moment.

I'm not entirely unsympathetic.

But he had to know, you know, if you're a Christian minister

who is an ordained pastor in a denomination that says that

homosexuality is a sin, and you go on the campus of Harvard University

and art about homosexuality, I don't know what you're thinking.

He seemed entirely unprepared to answer that, and then as he muddled through,

it was, he was not able to give any kind of a clear

explanation of what the Bible taught.

And it was an example of what happens.

Oftentimes, Christians who hold to an orthodox view of human sexuality, it was a clear

demonstration and an example of what happens so often, that

we will apologize, that we will end up, you know, hemming and hawing and not giving any kind of a

clear answer.

You know, when asked directly in that kind of a forum, you know, is homosexuality a

sin?

You say, Blaine, why the Bible?

Homosexuality.

Because the definition of homosexuality makes a lot of sense.

Let me take some time to explain that to you now.

And if anybody is smart enough, you know, as you said, to do that well, it would have been Tim

Keller, and yet it didn't happen.

Yeah, in fact, every time I side with Relief, when he gave an answer that

began well, all of a sudden he would say, but here's the problem with that.

Right, I know.

The constant search for a third way is oftentimes his

undoing.

Sometimes you just need to give the simple, clear answer

humbly.

He's not the only one.

Strive so you make,

well, then you're going to eventually muddle the truth and compromise

on it.

There's no way to make

that you're going to give the biblical answer.

No amount of trying to massage,

apologize for it, is going to make it okay.

So you have to just go in knowing, okay, they're going to be angry about this.

You know,

maybe they can be open to the gospel, but you just have to begin with,

see, I'm glad you answered the question.

I'm going to give you the short answer, which I think will frustrate you, but I hope you'll let me finish and give you the explanation as to

why, you know.

That kind of approach is so much better to try to.

Find a way to make this person not mad, you know.

And it's so much more loving in spite of what people think.

They would think that your direct approach and purely honest approach is less

loving, but it's more loving because we're supposed to be more concerned, number one, with honoring and obeying

God, number two, with the never -dying souls of sinners than

we are to be concerned about hurting people's feelings or winning them over as friends or keeping them as.

Friends.

Exactly.

And the fact is, it's

really, really good.

It's good, really

good.

It's providence.

You know,

that's not up

to

you.

I have to say that I've only seen one video.

Of a Pastor Sam Albury giving a lecture, and I can say

that I agreed with every single thing he said in this particular lecture.

But there was one thing that concerned me.

Well, it may be two things.

It is, he seemed to be resigned to the fact

that his lot in life is to be same -sex attracted.

Even if he doesn't fit, even if he was very clear, he will not

succumb to physically bringing that to consummation.

But it's like he has waved the white flag, this is what I am.

And that's what you find, yeah.

Well, I was just going to say, and the other problem I have is I don't know if a person qualifies

as a shepherd of Christ's flock who has that particular issue in.

His mind and heart.

But if you could, go ahead.

I'm sorry.

Yeah, well, you know, you're raising a really good point here because, and that's one of the problems I have with

the message that comes out of ReVoice, the gay, but what these

folks are saying is, this is who I am.

Gayness is my identity and I will be a gay...

Now again, they agree with the

Bible's terms of sex being for marriage between a man and a woman.

As you said, they've raised the white flag.

This is always going to be who I am.

And I understand that

from

one degree or another, as long as they live south of heaven.

At the same time, do we not

believe in sanctification of Christ or

new creations?

We reject any notion of perfectionism in this life.

You know, our sanctification won't be complete until we see Jesus, but

sanctification.

I, at one time, was

wholly, only interested sexually in members of the same sex, and God has changed me.

Do I ever struggle with some of those temptations?

Yeah, but I'm much farther down the road than I ever thought I would be.

And they would have

never thought God does work in

people's lives.

He does work in people's lives so that they're liberated

and thieves are liberated from

thieving.

Well, do we not believe that the one who struggles with

unnatural sexual attraction can be some measure

of victory over that?

If we don't,.

Then we don't believe in sanctification.

Right.

As Paul said, and some of you once.

Were these things.

Right.

Former homosexuals, they used to be homosexuals, and they're not anymore.

Yeah, exactly.

Just out of curiosity, what do you think about my comment slash.

Question about whether or not a man who still has an

ongoing struggle with same -sex attraction, is that person qualified.

For the pastoral ministry?

I would say no.

I would not, you know, if somebody came for

ordination and, you know, said, look, you know, I'm celibate.

I'm going to remain celibate, but I do have, you know, my sexual attraction is

towards members of the same sex.

You know, brother, sounds like you have a credible profession.

I'm thankful that you're committed to that

sexual act, but I cannot in good conscience vote for your

ordination so long as you believe that this is your

identity and don't believe that the Lord can sanctify you

progressively more and more away from that.

You know, so long as your belief is, this is my

identity, this is my area of struggle.

I'm committed to fighting against it, but this is what it is.

I just don't see how I could.

Same reason if somebody came before us and said, look, you know, I really struggle

with wanting to have sex with other men's wives.

You know, I'd go, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, you know, we're not talking about passing a

foolish indulgence in one's mind periodically, which is a sin, of course, but if

you're saying this is a daily thing for me, that I really desire to have sex with other men's

wives, I'd go, brother,.

You're just not ready for ordination yet.

Right.

It's like, you know, like as, I'm not saying that Sam Oldberry does this, because I never

heard, at least in the one lecture that I heard, I never heard him say, I am a gay Christian,

but...

Right.

From what I understand, he rejects that.

Okay, but those that do, it would be akin to someone saying, hi, I am a

heterosexual, adulterous, lusting Christian.

Right.

I mean, it's like, why would you even identify yourself that way?

Well, and I'll do not have, you know, and I'm using

Paul's language here from Romans 1, who do not have unnatural affection.

How many of us walk around and say, you know, I'm a straight Christian, or I'm a hetero, you know, we

don't talk like that because we don't use those terms in reference to our

identity.

You know, that they haven't become who we are.

But we don't walk around thinking about ourselves in

respect to our identity.

And so, it's troubling, for instance, in the revoiced

crowd, you know, celibate, you

know, gay but

celibate.

That's very damaging.

And again, that's a way of saying, you know, how can you see

the Lord sanctify you in that area, calling it an area of

sin, you're identifying it with who you are as a person.

You know, that's highly problematic.

I'm going to ask you a question, and we're going to go to our final break, and you can answer it when we return from the break.

We have Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, who

says, I have a problem with Christians who use the line,

sin is sin is sin, and they will equate a homosexual having

unnatural lust for someone of the same gender with the sin of lust

that heterosexuals go through, because I believe that

sexual desire is a gift of God when it is heterosexual, but we can abuse it

and turn it into sin, but homosexual lust is

never a gift of God, it is always sin, whether in thought or deed.

If you could comment on this, it seems to come up a lot in Christian circles, even

conservative and reformed Christian circles.

It's a great question.

And we could have you answer that when we return.

This is our final break right now.

If you want to join us on the air with a question, do so now, or forever hold your peace, because we're rapidly running out of time.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen, and this is the last 15 minutes of our interview today with Todd Pruitt.

If you have a question that you want to submit to us on gender, sexuality, and what it means to be human,

send in your email immediately because we're running out of time.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

And Todd, as I read Susan Margaret's question from Dauphin County, Pennsylvania

before the break, she basically wants to know, is there a difference between

sin involving lust that is rooted in homosexuality rather than heterosexuality,

or as the common phrase is often repeated, sin is innocent?

Yeah, yeah.

Well, in terms of what, you

know, our standard is equally damning, but not all sin is

equally damaging.

And, you know, the scriptures, the Apostle Paul specifically warns us that sins against the

body, in which case he is talking about sexual sins, are particularly damaging, that

they are kinds of sins.

And they are.

Larger scope and the damage they do is wider and hurts more people.

In areas of sexual desire, oftentimes you will hear from the gay Christian movement,

is a kind of an equivalency in

sexual desire between homosexual and heterosexual.

In other words, they'll kind of flatten the two into kind of a strange equivalency.

Well, you know, I struggle with desiring people of the same sex.

You struggle with desiring people of the opposite sex.

They're, you know, they're both sins.

I would agree that lust is a

way of sexual attraction, that there's a legitimate,

God -glorifying, indeed necessary way to have

sexual attraction to a member.

We wouldn't get married if that were not the case.

Legitimately, there's

no legitimate

being a member of the opposite sex

has a place in the life of a glorifying

God.

Understand that because we're sinful, that legitimate attraction,

if you're married and you begin to lust after other women, Jesus tells us very quickly, very clearly,

that that is adultery in the heart.

But our

young and they're growing and their body is changing, they begin to

accept that God has made them.

They've been created that way.

And what they need, of course, are godly parents and a good church to help them,

that they would want to act out on those attractions, which they shouldn't.

But they have the good news of knowing that there is this wonderful gift of

marriage that God has given to humanity, where that God -given

sexual attraction can find its expression and can be there for the

deepening of that marriage and for the

pleasure

and are not at all.

Equivalent.

They are fundamentally different morally.

Fundamentally, there is a way

that is a good thing that can be

twisted by sin.

Same -sex sex is not good.

It comes out of a sinful place and so

they are fundamentally different.

Yeah, the Bible calls it unnatural.

Unnatural.

And it's great that Paul uses that language because one of the things that's implied

in that language is that even the unbeliever can know it.

Even the unbeliever can know sexuality is wrong.

The very construction, again,

to use a language from natural law,

it's one of the things you can't not know.

And so Paul uses that language of natural and unnatural.

So we know that homosexuality and homosexual attractions are wrong,

not only because what God clearly states in his word, but also because of what God has written in his book of nature, so

to speak.

You can't not know it's wrong.

Here's a controversial question for you.

I remember, it wasn't that long ago, but I remember when I first

started hearing homosexuals say that they were born

that way, there was an immediate reaction by

Christians, conservative Bible -believing Christians, to say, no way, Jose, you can't be

born that way.

And I joined in on that.

But then I started to think about the fact, if I believe

in total depravity, if I believe we are conceived in sin

and we come from the womb, a liar and other things, as David

says in the Psalms, why would it be out of the question for someone

to have a proclivity towards

homosexuality if they are totally depraved before the regeneration?

Now, I have to give this quick caveat.

I am not saying that somebody can use that as an excuse to sin.

No, of course not.

Yeah, I mean, you're making a point that I agree with, which is this many, many times,

you know, are homosexuals born that way?

Well, I can only conclude struggle with same -sex attraction,

there may be emotional makeup

that made them more susceptible to these kinds of unnatural attractions.

There's nothing about granting that possibility that in any way

precipitates us concluding that their sexuality is okay.

Any more than we would say, if someone is born with a more

physiological proclivity towards addiction, we would not say to that person,

if you indulge in drugs in these addictive ways, it's

okay because you were born with that proclivity.

No, we would say to that person,

you're going to need your brothers to walk in holiness,

but it's over here that might be tougher for me than it is for

you.

So yeah, if somebody were to discover, which has never happened, but if somebody were to

discover a difference in the brain struck of someone who is

attracted more to members of the same sex, I don't know how that could ever be.

That doesn't change anything, sexuality, nor does it change

anything about the damage to the human person.

Right.

You know, a physiological predisposition towards homosexuality

all of a sudden doesn't make the terrible physical

suddenly go away.

It doesn't make the sin less damaging, still damaging.

It still does terrible things to the body and to the emotions

so of

life, including our genetics.

Right.

And one of the things that I think can be damaging by

insisting that somebody could not possibly be born with that proclivity

is that when we say to somebody who is either struggling with this sin or who

has boldly and proudly identified themselves with the sin is when we

say to them, you know, this was your choice and they look back at their own

lives, they look back at their childhood and they can honestly say, no, it wasn't.

They obviously have to choose to participate in it and to yield to it.

But as far as the attraction goes, like for instance, a part of Sam Albury's

lecture, he said that he never chose this way.

He just always remembers from his youngest years when he began to be sexually attracted to

anybody, it was towards people of the same sex.

And who am I to say, no, that's not true?

Because that's not even the important issue.

The important issue is, doesn't matter, you need to repent and flee to Christ.

And I've even heard of studies done, and I don't know how accurate they are, but people, I heard of a study where

men who have more testosterone than the average man are more

prone to violence and that many people in prison who are violent criminals

had more testosterone.

Now, they may have been born with that, but that doesn't mean that we say, okay, we've got to give them a break for beating people up and killing them.

Exactly.

That's going to look

similar to David's

own words.

We're conceived in sin.

We come out of the womb ready to sin.

I'm not only guilty from the imputation of Adam's sin, but also guilty because

nobody ever has to teach us how to sin.

And so, yeah, there could be a physiological,

some people's same -sex attraction doesn't change anything about

the morality of homosexuality.

It just doesn't change it at all.

Well, we are out of time, and I want to make sure that our listeners have all the information they need to get a hold of you and also to attend the

Gender, Sexuality, and What It Means to Be Human conference, March 29th through the 30th at the

Covenant Presbyterian Church of Harrisonburg, Virginia.

The website is alliancenet .org, alliancenet .org.

Click events and then scroll down to the Blue Ridge Bible Conference 2019 on Gender, Sexuality, and What It Means

to Be Human.

And also, if you want more information about the church where our guest is the pastor,

you can go to cov -pres .org.

And that is the Covenant Presbyterian Church of Harrisonburg, Virginia.

Thank you so much, Todd.

My pleasure, Chris.

I look forward to having you back on the show often.

I was really impressed with you today, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater

Savior than you are a sinner.