March 6, 2019 Show with Todd Pruitt on “Gender, Sexuality & What it Means to be Human”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at IronSharpensIronRadio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this sixth day of March 2019, and today we have a first -time guest who is supposed to be calling in, should have called in already,

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I'm not sure what the holdup is yet because he did confirm today that he is going to be on the air.

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I may have to go to an early commercial break and call and find out what the holdup is, but we are going to be joined,

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God willing, momentarily by Todd Pruitt, co -host of the Mortification of Spin podcast and lead pastor of Covenant Presbyterian Church in Harrisonburg, Virginia.

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We're going to be discussing today the theme of an upcoming conference where Todd Pruitt is on the speaking roster,

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Gender, Sexuality, and What it Means to Be Human, and this is going to be a conference held

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March 29th and 30th, so it's coming up right around the corner, at the

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Covenant Presbyterian Church of Harrisonburg, Virginia, and we'll be giving you all the details on how to attend that conference momentarily, but it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Todd Pruitt.

02:39

Hey Chris, good to be with you. It's great to have you with us today. Before we go into not only the theme of our program today on gender, sexuality, and what it means to be human, and before we get your personal testimony, which we normally do with first -time guests, why don't you tell our listeners something about Covenant Presbyterian Church of Harrisonburg, Virginia.

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Sure. Covenant Presbyterian Church is a church in the PCA, the

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Presbyterian Church in America. We were planted in the early 80s by another

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PCA church in the Charlottesville, Virginia area, that saw a need here in this part of the

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Shenandoah Valley for a PCA church, and so they planted Covenant Presbyterian as a church plant, and in 1985,

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I believe, Covenant Presbyterian, what we call it, particularized, became its own church with its own body of elders and deacons, and so we've been around formally as a church since 1985.

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It's a wonderful congregation. My family and I have been here for about five and a half years, and it's just a marvelous congregation.

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The Lord's given us a great group of elders and deacons. It's a wonderful, wonderful staff

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I get to work with and associate pastors, and we've just loved it. God's placed us in a part of the country that we have everything from about over 30 ,000 college students right here in our community, as well as immigrants not only from across Mexico and Latin America, but also from northern

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Africa and the Middle East. Our region of the country is one of the places where the government has been helping refugees from northern

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Africa, Middle East, and other Arab speaking nations to relocate, and so it's given us a really rich opportunity to reach out evangelistically and love these neighbors who are new to the country and introduce them to the gospel, and it's been a really wonderful thing to be a part of.

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So we're loving it. And of course, it's God's country. It's the Shenandoah Valley. It's the most beautiful place in the world.

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Well, it's good to feel that way about where you live and minister, and if anybody wants more details on this church, go to cov -pres .org,

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and I'll be, hopefully I will remember to repeat that later on throughout the broadcast, cov as in victory dash pres dot org.

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Now let us know about the Mortification of Spin, this podcast that you co -host.

05:29

Yeah, so this is something that Carl Truman and I began doing for the

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Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals. They had reached out to us with a desire to have a podcast and a blog that would be casual and fun, but touch on important areas of doctrine and devotion.

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And so Carl and I began doing that, I guess around seven years ago,

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I think it's been, and about a year or so after we started, we reached out to Amy Bird, who had a blog that we were liking a lot, because it was focused towards women and helping women become doctrinally and biblically discerning, and we saw a real lack of that from the material that was being produced for women.

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And we interviewed her, we had a lot of fun, and so we asked her to be a co -host. And so all except for about the first year,

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Amy has been one of the three hosts and bloggers at Mortification of Spin.

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And we have a lot of fun, we interview a lot of people, we talk about a lot of books, interview authors of some really, really helpful books that are out there, and so we're able to get a lot of good materials in people's hands, and every once in a while get controversial, which can be fun and not so fun depending on what we're being controversial about.

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So that's what we do there. Now, explain the title. Obviously it's a takeoff, a comical takeoff on Mortification of Sin, and Spin, of course, is, correct me if I'm wrong, it's kind of a nickname for what people in the media do when they exaggerate, perhaps, or add their own personal views to what the reality is.

07:15

So tell us about how do you combine these two things and what the title means. Yeah, well it's funny because every once in a while people will get frustrated with us maybe for being a little bit too edgy or introducing some sarcasm here and there, and we just have to remind them of the title of the program.

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It's Mortification of Spin, and every once in a while, yeah, we have to put our finger on things that make folks uncomfortable.

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And so, you know, kind of the primary areas of our critique is our own group, you know, conservative reformed or reformed -ish

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Christians, and where things are maybe not what they ought to be.

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We will point that out, and sometimes people find that helpful, and sometimes people get upset about that.

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And so, yeah, you're absolutely right. It's a wordplay on John Owens' volume called

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On the Mortification of Spin, and due to Carl Truman's witty and dry

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English sense of humor, he very quickly came up with the idea of calling it Mortification of Spin.

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And so that's what we try to do. You know, we will critique the world in terms of the ways that it hurts and impacts people, but we try to save our clearest critiques for our own folks, ourselves included at times.

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So, yeah. Well, I'm hoping one day—perhaps I'm not hoping—but I'm wondering if I'll ever see a church sign that says something like the first reform -ish church in such -and -such town.

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I would recommend that there's some churches that consider that as a title, you know. Just enough

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Reformed theology to be in the club, but departing from Reformed practice, maybe, something like that.

09:18

Yeah. Well, remind Carl that I want him back on the show. He's been on my show a number of times already, seems to enjoy it because he wrote a very wonderful commendation for Iron Trip and Iron Radio, and I wanted to get him back on as well to help promote this conference that you are speaking at.

09:37

Perhaps, before we go into your personal salvation testimony, we can have you give a summary of this conference, where you are going to be joined by Carl Truman and others on the speaking roster.

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This is the conference on gender, sexuality, and what it means to be human, the

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Blue Ridge Conference, the Blue Ridge Bible Conference. The Blue Ridge Bible Conference, uh -huh, yeah.

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So the Blue Ridge Bible Conference is something that we started here at Covenants two years ago.

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We thought, you know, let's try to have a Bible conference every other year, and so this will be our second one.

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Two years ago, it dealt with the sufficiency of Scripture, and the speakers were

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Carl Truman and Gregory Beal, a New Testament scholar from Westminster Seminary, and Jonathan Master, who is a systematic theologian from Cairn University.

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Yeah, I've interviewed all those folks. Okay, there you go, yeah, and they're wonderful. And so that was our very first Blue Ridge Bible Conference, and for this second one,

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I had decided really immediately after the conference two years ago that this was going to be the subject for the next one, specifically gender and sexuality.

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And the speakers are... Carl Truman's going to be delivering two addresses. Tim Geiger, who is the president of Harvest USA, is going to be delivering two of the addresses, and then

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I'm going to deliver one address. And the goal is to offer a biblical response to some of the newest manifestations of sexual revolution in terms of homosexuality and the gender confusion.

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Carl's going to be speaking primarily to the gender confusion issue. How we got to this place of thinking that it makes sense for a man to begin to, quote, you know, identify as a woman.

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How we got to the place where now this has become an accepted part of the fabric of our culture, and then how the challenges this represents for the

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Church. Tim Geiger of Harvest USA, and if anybody's familiar with Harvest USA, it's a wonderful, wonderful ministry for those struggling with various kinds of sexual sin, and Tim is the president of Harvest and is just excellent on this issue.

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He's going to be speaking about biblical sexual ethics in focusing primarily on homosexuality, and he's going to get into, helpfully, some of the issues that we're dealing with in the

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PCA, like this gay but celibate Christian category.

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You know, people say, I'm a gay Christian, I'm celibate, but I'm a gay Christian, and he's going to talk about why that's problematic.

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You know, what the... because oftentimes what's deceptive about this to a lot of those laypersons and pastors is that they'll hear from folks in this movement and say, hey, you know, we agree, homosexual behavior is wrong, and so they'll think we're saying the same thing, but we're not saying the same thing.

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So Tim's going to help us to navigate that, and then I'm going to give an address on how the

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Bible gives us a better story of human identity than the world can give us, and how that plays out in terms of sexual ethics and gender identity.

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And so, basically, I'm communicating, you know, the world tells a very simple story, and a very emotional story, which appeals to a lot of people, and that's why so many

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Christians have, unfortunately, changed their minds on these issues.

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But the Bible tells a complex story, and a long story, but it's an infinitely better story, and we're going to see kind of the doctrinal why behind the

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Bible's clear sexual boundaries. Why does God prohibit homosexuality?

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Why does God command that sexual intimacy be only within a marriage?

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And why is marriage between only one man and one woman? We're going to see very clearly in the creation narrative the theological and the intellectual coherence of the

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Bible's prohibitions against those various sins. Great. Well, we'll be giving more information about how to attend this conference,

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Gender, Sexuality, and What It Means to Be Human, March 29th through the 30th at Covenant Presbyterian Church in Harrisonburg, Virginia, throughout the broadcast, but I might as well give you some details now so you can write them down before I forget to do it later.

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If you go to AllianceNet .org, AllianceNet .org, and you click on Events, just scroll down until you see

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Gender, Sexuality, and What It Means to Be Human, the Blue Ridge Bible Conference 2019, and all of the details on how you can attend will be there.

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And also, if you have a calendar nearby, or a piece of paper, or your cell phone, or your computer, whatever else you might want to mark this date down on Monday the 25th of March, God willing, we're going to be joined by Tim Geiger, one of the speakers at this conference, along with our guests today,

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Todd Pruitt and Carl Truman. We don't have a date yet for Carl Truman. We're working on that right now, but we would love, as I said before, to have

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Carl back. I'm going to give our email address right now for anybody who would like to join us on the air with a question for our guest

15:21

Todd Pruitt on Gender, Sexuality, and What It Means to Be Human. Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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And I can see with a topic like this, Gender, Sexuality, and What It Means to Be Human, that we may very well get people who have personal and private questions that involve them remaining anonymous, and I understand that and I will grant you that request, of course.

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But if it's just a general question, please give us at least your city, your first name, your city and state, and country of residence.

16:07

Well, as a first -time guest, Todd, as we normally do on Orange Represents Orange Radio, we have our first -time guests give a summary of their salvation testimony, beginning with what kind of religious atmosphere, if any, where you were raised, and also what kind of providential circumstances that our

16:29

Sovereign Lord raised up in your life that drew you to himself and saved you. Yeah, I was very blessed to be raised in a

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Christian family, and so I heard the Gospel all of my life.

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I was born and raised Southern Baptist, and I was very fortunate to be raised in Southern Baptist Church, where the

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Gospel was made very clear. The Gospel was preached faithfully. I was never,

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I don't think, subject to legalism, you know, when people criticize a lot of conservative churches for being legalistic.

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I never learned legalism. I never was taught anything other than the biblical

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Gospel that were justified by grace through faith alone. I was not in any way raised in a

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Calvinistic kind of church, but they really did, they got the

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Gospel right. And so I'm always thankful for that. And so having heard the

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Gospel all of my life, and by God's grace, having my heart pricked by the conviction of the

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Holy Spirit, I remember as a nine -year -old kid feeling really bad about sin.

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And again, not because I was in a legalistic environment, but because I was in an environment that, you know, where Jesus was loved and the

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Gospel was preached, and I was a well -behaved kid, but I had this weight, this burden on me that, of course, as I look back,

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I understand it's the Holy Spirit's conviction. And so though I was raised believing, and if you would have asked me at any time prior to my being nine years old, do you believe in Jesus, I would have said, of course

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I do. I did, but I would tell you that that moment of rebirth happened when

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I was nine years old, and I had parents that I could go to and say, hey, you know,

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I'm, you know, I think I'm, you know, and using the language that I was raised with, you know, saying, you know, hey,

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I want to be saved, I think I'm ready to be saved. And oh, over a period of about two weeks, they just took me through the

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Roman road, you know. My parents were ordinary Christian people, but they knew to not just turn me over to a children's minister and say, hey, help our kid get saved, they knew, to each evening have me hop on bed with them, and the three of us sat on top of their bed, and they just took me through the

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Roman road, and we would talk about those verses each night, what they meant, and I prayed to receive

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Christ with the help of my dad, and was baptized after that, and you know, that's one of the things where I'm so grateful that in God's providence,

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He gave me parents who had me in a church that preached the gospel, and He gave me parents who knew what to do when they saw the

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Spirit of God working in my heart, and they knew to take me to the scriptures, and they knew which scriptures to take me to.

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And it was right near the end of high school where I really began to sense an inward call to ministry, and as I talked to some of the men

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I trusted in my church, they confirmed that they saw that in me, and from there on I went to Bible college, and went to seminary, and later on, much later on, turned into a

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Presbyterian. So yeah. Well, we forgive you for that.

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I understand. My Baptist brothers have been patient with me. Well, if it came down to being a

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Reformed Baptist myself, attending or joining a church that was an

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Arminian Baptist, or a biblically sound Reformed Presbyterian congregation, and I don't necessarily mean the denomination

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Reformed Presbyterian, although I love those folks too, have a lot of friends in there, and interview them,

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I would choose the Presbyterian Church over the Arminian Baptist Church. Yeah, yeah, and you talk to any

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PCA pastor and he'll tell you, you know, a not insignificant number of their members and attendees are

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Baptists who, you know, for some of the very reasons you just outlined, are attending, and some have joined, you know,

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PCA Church, or another conservative Presbyterian Church, because they love the

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Word, and they want to be where the Word is preached, and they love for the church to be led biblically by a plurality of men, and they want to be where that happens.

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And in the church I serve, quite a significant number of our members are still Baptistic, if you like, in their understanding of Baptism, but they're members in good standing and involved in all kinds of areas, serving our church and making our church a better and a healthier place.

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And so I'm thankful for that. I'm thankful for them to say, you know, we can't go with you on Baptism, but we love this church, and we want to stand with you and pledge ourselves to being a part of the scholarship, and they love, other than Baptism, they love the doctrine of our church, and are able to be just wonderful, wonderful church members.

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So that happens in PCA churches across the country. Amen. Well, by the way,

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I think I forgot to give our listeners the website for Mortification of Spin, the podcast that is co -hosted by our guest

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Todd Pruitt. You can go to AllianceNet .org, AllianceNet .org,

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forward slash M -O -S, which stands for Mortification of Spin, forward slash podcast.

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So it's AllianceNet .org, forward slash M -O -S, which stands for Mortification of Spin, forward slash podcast.

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Okay, once again, I will repeat our email address if you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Todd Pruitt about gender sexuality and what it means to be human, and that is

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ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

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Please give us your first name, city, and state, and country of residence, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

22:55

I think one of the reasons that this theme that we are addressing today, which is also the theme of your conference, one of the reasons it's such a controversial issue in the church is there is a tendency of Christians, because we are all sinners, that we are going to fall very often on one extreme or the other in regard to our reaction to sin involving gender sexuality and all things under the umbrella of sexual sin and immorality.

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We have, on the one hand, unforgiving, merciless

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Christians who are filled with pride and self -righteousness about their own belief that they themselves are sexually pure, and you may have a very mean -spirited approach to this issue or these issues.

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Obviously the gospel itself will offend sinners, but very often

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Christians add their own offensiveness to the gospel. And then you have, on the other end of the spectrum, people who are compassionate and kind and merciful and loving, but they extend or twist biblical compassion to a level of, for lack of a better term, candy -coating the sin, or it's taking away the sting of the biblical command to repent and so on, that they wind up they wind up giving safe harbor to those committing sexual sins where there is no challenge to them or even command to them to repent.

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They think that their behavior may be completely acceptable, or they think that they're completely acceptable to have a proclivity towards sexual sin as long as they don't physically consummate it.

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So you know, you have these extremes, and I think that's why we have controversies in the body of Christ, even in our

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Reformed denominations over this. Do you think that what I said so far is accurate? Yeah, I do.

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And you know, unfortunately, because of the obnoxious behavior of some who

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I would agree with in terms of their theology, but because of some, maybe, obnoxious behavior, they don't get a proper hearing because they've behaved like jerks in the conversation.

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I am very, very willing for the Gospel and God's truth and God's standards on sexual ethics to be a source of offense.

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I just want to make sure, as you alluded to earlier, I just want to make sure that my own behavior is not the source of offense, and so you know, we really, you know, we can be loving in how we talk about these things, but we do have to be clear, knowing that just being clear on what the

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Bible teaches about human relationships is going to cause a stir. People are going to be offended, and so as the

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Church speaks into this, we just have to know that we're going to be treated as indecent people, which is, you know, interesting.

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I've been reading some history from the first two centuries of the Church, and one of the ways that Christians in the first two centuries were condemned by Rome was by being immoral, and one of the reasons they were called immoral is because they did not participate in the immorality of Rome.

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And so Roman citizens and even emperors would heap these aspersions upon the character of those

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Christians, precisely because they were not swept up into the debauchery of Roman society.

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And not much has changed in those terms, you know. Now we have elected officials calling

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Christians who believe what Christians have always believed, indecent, quote, simply because we believe what

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Christians have always believed. So it is a very, very sensitive topic, this topic of sexual ethics particularly, as it touches on homosexuality.

27:51

People respond with a lot of anger. Don't you think that also there is a disturbing trend on the part of those on the left end of the spectrum, even within conservative evangelicalism.

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I'm not talking about mainline apostate liberals. Right, more progressives, yeah.

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Yeah, more progressive conservatives, where those involved in what has been, what has become to be called the

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LGBTQ, and I can't remember what else might be added to that now, quote -quote community.

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People are being treated as if they are a separate category of humans, and they are being treated as if they are representing an ethnic group, or a group of people who have the same skin color or so on.

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They are being treated in a different way than perhaps heterosexual adulterers and fornicators would be.

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They're being treated with more of a kid -glove approach. Oh, absolutely. And things are candy -coated, things are softened because we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings.

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And of course, in the 21st century, we don't want to lose our jobs. We don't want to be fined for tens of thousands of dollars.

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There's all kinds of ramifications of giving the appearance that we are being mean -spirited and cruel and harsh to those involved in homosexuality or what has been called transgenderism and the transvestism and all that kind of thing.

29:41

Yeah, well, sadly what's been happening is, you're right, is you've got, you know, moderate conservatives, progressive conservatives, this kind of category.

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We're not talking about, you know, left -wing liberal

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PCUSA types. We're talking about people in my own denomination, for instance, the

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PCA, who would be considered very conservative by people in the

30:09

PCUSA, but they're crossing some lines in terms of our thinking about human identity, human sexuality, sexual identity, same -sex attraction, and we're giving away grounds that we cannot afford to give away.

30:29

So just as, you know, an illustration of that would be the ReVoice conference that happened last summer in St.

30:35

Louis at a PCA church, Memorial PCA. It's in the

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Missouri Presbytery of the PCA. And that is, you know, a conference where the organizers and speakers primarily were self -identified.

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They would refer to themselves as gay Christians, celibates, because they will say, we believe that sex is only for marriage between a man and a woman.

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So we hear that, we say, okay, good, they believe what we believe there. But there are some really important differences, and not least of all is what you identified in terms of they have adopted the world's thinking about human identity, that human identity can be qualified in terms of a sexual proclivity, and so therefore there is an

31:28

LGBTQ community. And what happens is it might sound like a subtle shift, but it's actually a major shift, so that sex, in this case homosexual sex, goes from an act that is committed to an identity, to a human identity.

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And that's the dangerous shift, because I would argue that it's a far bigger leap to go from...

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it's a far bigger leap to embrace homosexuality as a human identity, that once you embrace that, that there are quote, gay

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Christians, that my sexual attraction to members of the same sex is who

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I am, it's my given identity, that it's actually a much shorter leap then to go from that place to approving of the behavior itself.

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And if you know the history of the denominations that are now homosexual -affirming, that's the path they tried.

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You know, they didn't go from orthodoxy to embrace of homosexuality overnight. They all walked this road at first saying, well, we grant it as an identity but still forbid the behavior, and then at some point forbidding the behavior is seen as pastorally cruel, because we're telling people, you cannot live out who you are.

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We agree with your assessment of who you are, but you can't live it out. That, at some point, can't hold.

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At some point, that has to give way. And so when I see in my own denomination pastors who are...

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pastors and lay persons who are saying... who are granting this new category of human personhood, namely that homosexuality is a marker of human identity, when

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I see our own doing that, it causes me and many others a great deal of concern.

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Yes, there seems to be an abandonment or an ignoring of the fact that when we read about even same -sex attraction in the

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New Testament, it is really described as a curse.

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It is... people are turned over to this lust, and even the burning of their hearts for one another, burning in their hearts for one another, that in and of itself is wickedness and unnatural before any physical consummation of the act occurs.

34:11

Right. And one of the mistakes that those advancing what

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I would call, you know, the revoiced theology, the gay but celibate

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Christian movement, and this is, you know, folks like Wesley Hill, who's a theologian and has done some really good work in terms of theology.

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He's a very competent, highly competent theologian, but he is one who is very open about the fact that he is a gay

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Christian who is celibate. So Wesley Hill is a major voice in this. Nate Collins, who's a Southern Baptist, is the head of Revoice, and so you've got various folks involved in this.

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And what they have said is that same -sex attraction is a part of their given identity.

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If you read Nate Collins' book entitled All But Invisible, that's one of the things that you come to learn very early, is that he believes that his same -sex attraction is a part of his given identity, and that his, quote, gayness will be preserved in some way in the age to come, in the new heaven and the new earth.

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Now, again, he says that acting out in...he says that sex is for husband and wife in the context of marriage alone, but they've created this identity which is, but there's something about my same -sex attraction that is essentially good.

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Now, there may be some brokenness to it, but some part of it will be preserved. Now, what that means is anyone's guess,

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I suppose, but these are very disturbing implications. And again, once you accept that, once you say that there's something that this same -sex attraction is not inherently sinful and coming out of an inherently sinful place, then ultimately,

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I don't know how you can maintain for long a position that says gay but celibate.

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I just don't know how you can do that, but that's the kind of the third way they're trying to navigate.

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We have to go to a break right now, and it will be a fairly brief break, and you can send in your questions to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

36:37

chrisarnson at gmail .com for Todd Pruitt. But before I go to the break, I'm going to read a question for you,

36:43

Todd, and then you can answer it when we return. Okay. We have Ted from Tuscaloosa, Alabama, who says, all right, at the risk of being dismissed as some raging egalitarian or feminist,

36:58

I'll bite. Perhaps I've misread the details, but it seems that you're giving a conference on gender, sexuality, and what it means to be human, and of the five presentations, surprise, all of them are being given by men.

37:15

To use the vernacular of the day, can you unpack that for us a bit?

37:20

I mean, couldn't you even trot Amy out for a courtesy talk?

37:27

I guess Amy Byrd is who he's speaking about. After all, you brought her onto your podcast ostensibly for some gender balance.

37:38

Okay. Thank you, feminist Ted. I mean, Ted. I'm kidding,

37:44

Ted. But we'll have you answer that question when we come back from the first break.

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If anybody else would like to join us, again, ChrisArnson at gmail .com is our is our email address.

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Iron Trip and Zion Radio to remain on the air. And we are now back with Todd Pruitt and we are discussing the upcoming conference, the theme of the upcoming conference, towards the end of this month, and that is gender, sexuality, and what it means to be human, which is also the theme of the

47:36

Bible Conference, the Blue Ridge Bible Conference, on March 29th and 30th at the

47:42

Covenant Presbyterian Church in Harrisonburg, Virginia. And if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is

47:48

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. And before the break, as you probably remember, Todd, we had

47:53

Ted in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, basically asking why you don't have any women on the speaking roster when the whole theme involves gender.

48:05

Yeah, well, Ted in Tuscaloosa, first of all, I'm not big into tokenism, for one thing.

48:13

Secondly, the topic is not just gender generally, but gender in terms of understanding the current gender chaos.

48:29

Now, originally, Rosaria Butterfield was going to be with us, and she had to back out because of a surgery with a very, very close family member that is going on that week, and so she sent her regrets.

48:48

So we actually had a sister in Christ scheduled to be a part of the weekend, and when she had to back out,

49:01

I did not quickly rush out and just toss in another woman so that there would be a woman.

49:09

So, Ted, there you go, hope that satisfies. Yeah, just because you might believe it is completely appropriate and not in violation of a complementarian understanding of leadership in the church doesn't mean you are required to have a woman involved at every conference on the speaking roster.

49:32

So, I mean, that's when you get it. You used a very good term there in the beginning, that you're not in favor of tokenism, and we're just imitating the world when we start saying that we've got to have a person of this gender or this skin color or of this ethnicity when we're doing a conference.

49:54

We're just borrowing or imitating the world at that point, I think. Right, exactly. Well, thank you for writing in,

50:01

Ted, and keep listening to Iron Trip and Zion Radio in Tuscaloosa, Alabama and beyond, and keep sending in questions.

50:10

And we have Gordy in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, who says, in your opinion, what is the best approach to engaging in dialogue on this subject without compromise, yet not coming across as uncaring or insensitive?

50:27

So, basically, he's asking you to do something that is absolutely impossible. Yeah, I mean, that's the thing.

50:34

You know, one of the things that we have learned, I hope, is that the most winsome people who go so far in their winsomeness that even some of the clarity is lost, they still ultimately are condemned once it becomes clear they're holding the line on biblical sexual ethics.

50:57

You know, some of you may remember when, you know, Rick Warren was disinvited from delivering a prayer at a presidential inauguration years ago because it was discovered that he believed marriage should only be between a man and a woman.

51:18

Now, you have to work hard to be more winsome, if you like, than Rick Warren.

51:26

And yet, you know, he received, I mean, you know, you would have thought that Heinrich Himmler was being asked at the response that poor, poor

51:38

Rick got. So, I just tell folks, you know, just don't be a jerk. You know, you don't have to yell at people and you don't have to use epithets.

51:46

You know, when somebody says, you know, I'll see people on social media, you know, refer to, you know, quote, sodomites, and I say, okay, you know, if you want to use that in settings where it's just us

52:02

Christians who agree on the matter, that's fine, but if you refer to the person you're wanting to talk to as a sodomite, you might not get a hearing, you know.

52:13

But what I tell people is, you can say every single thing you want to say in exactly the way you want to say it, or you can have influence, but oftentimes you can't do both.

52:26

Now, I will say this. At the conference, you'll have three speakers who are going to say very much what they want to say, and it'll be very clear, and it'll be very uncompromising, but it's going to be done in a

52:43

Christlike way. Now, if an unrepentant homosexual is in that building listening to those addresses, two things, one of two things are going to happen.

52:53

They're either going to get really, really angry, or they'll repent and listen. But, you know, just one of the things we've learned is that simply to say, you know, you can go very meekly and, you know, with your head hung low and say,

53:12

I personally believe that homosexuality is a sin, and that's just my personal opinion, if you put it across that way, you're going to be savage.

53:19

That's the Joel Osteen approach. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you're going to be savage if you say it in the most reluctant way.

53:28

If you apologize for holding that view, you're still going to be savage. And I think the reason why the opposition is so, so swift and so over -the -top against Christians, against churches who hold the line on Biblical sexual ethics,

53:47

I think the reason why the criticism is so vehement is because, I think a part of human nature is that when we know that we don't have

53:58

God's blessing, we demand to have man's blessing. And one of the things that I try to talk to people about in terms of the issue of homosexuality is that they know it's wrong, because they can't not know it's wrong.

54:14

Now, yes, there eventually comes a time, Romans chapter 1, where people are turned over to a wicked and depraved mind, but I would argue that just like abortion, homosexuality is one of those things that people can't not know is wrong, and that's one of the reasons for the vehemence, for the anger, for the, in some cases, violence against those who simply voice the

54:37

Biblical standard. Yeah, I think that Gordy in Mechanicsburg has two words that are key in his question.

54:49

Coming across. There's a difference between what is the best approach to engaging in dialogue on this subject without compromise, and not coming across as uncaring or insensitive.

55:03

There's a difference between that and not being uncaring and insensitive. Right, right.

55:09

Yep, yep. And I was asked recently by someone who's in ministry, hey, you know, at the conference, is it going to be kind of real harsh, kind of in -your -face, or are you guys going to be gentlizable?

55:21

Of course we're going to be gentle. You know, I said, you know, one of the things we're going to make clear is that if there is anyone, you know, in attendance who struggles with same -sex temptation, who really struggles with this, we're going to let them know that they are cared about, that they're loved, that every

55:39

Christian in that room struggles with some kind of temptation, some kind of sin, and that we are for them, and that the reason why we're going to be speaking truth about this is precisely because we're for them, and we want to help equip them with truth that will help to sustain them.

55:57

If anybody's familiar with Tim Geiger's ministry, you know, Tim Geiger's going to be clear, he's going to be biblical, and he's also going to be really kind.

56:05

You know, and so my hope and my suspicion is that we're going to do a decent job in that conference of being both very clear, and very clear in our exhortations to holiness, very clear in affirming what the

56:21

Bible says on these matters, and also holding out with great compassion the gospel and the hope of Christ for those who struggle with these particular kinds of sins, which are hard temptation.

56:35

We have to go to our midway break right now. By the way, thanks a lot Gordy and Mechanicsburg, keep listening to Lion, Trip, and Sign Radio and spreading the word in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, and beyond.

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We're going to our midway break right now. This is the longer than normal break because Grace Life Radio in Lake City, Florida, 90 .1

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FM, they air this program and they have to localize

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Lion, Trip, and Sign Radio to Lake City, Florida, so they use this time while we are airing our commercials that are heard globally, they are airing their own commercials and public service announcements to localize

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Lion, Trip, and Sign Radio to Lake City, Florida. So please use this time wisely during this elongated break by not only writing down information about our advertisers, the information provided by our advertisers, so that you can more frequently and more successfully patronize them, because we depend on our advertisers' advertising dollars to exist, and the more you successfully and more frequently patronize them, the more likely they are going to remain our advertisers, which means the more likely we will remain on the air.

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So please write down the information they provide, but also write down questions for Todd Pruitt, and our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

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chrisarnson at gmail .com, and as always give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the

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We are back now and we will be joining Todd Pruitt again to continue our discussion on the theme of the conference where he is speaking,

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Gender, Sexuality, and What it Means to Be Human, at the Covenant Presbyterian Church in Harrisonburg, Virginia.

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That is going to be held on March 29th and 30th, but before we return to our discussion we just have some special events coming up that we want you to be aware of.

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The speakers include Justin Peters, Frank Mullis, Joe Suozzo, and Colleen Sharp of Theology Gal's podcast.

01:12:09

That's Sanctification Through Suffering. If you would like to attend this conference March 15th through the 16th in Freehold, New Jersey, go to strivingforeternity .org

01:12:21

strivingforeternity .org. And then, coming up shortly after that, is the conference that we have been addressing today on gender, sexuality, and what it means to be human.

01:12:32

The speakers include Tim Geiger, Todd Pruitt, our guest today, and Carl Truman, March 29th through the 30th at the

01:12:41

Covenant Presbyterian Church of Harrisonburg, Virginia. This is an event of the

01:12:47

Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals and the Blue Ridge Bible Conferences. If you'd like to attend this event, go to alliancenet .org,

01:12:57

alliancenet .org, click on events, and then scroll down to gender, sexuality, and what it means to be human, the

01:13:04

Blue Ridge Bible Conference 2019. That's March 29th and the 30th. Then, coming up after that,

01:13:11

I will be attending, God willing, the East Coast Ministers Conference being held by the

01:13:16

Banner of Truth. That's going to be held in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania at Elizabethtown College, May 28th through the 30th.

01:13:24

I believe in the Holy Spirit is the theme of the Banner of Truth East Coast Ministers Conference.

01:13:31

And the speakers include Jeff Kingswood, Terry Johnson, David Vaughn, a

01:13:37

Reformed Baptist missionary in France, Dr. Stephen J. Nichols, who is the president of Reformation Bible College, the college founded by the late

01:13:45

R .C. Sproul of Ligonier Ministries, Michael Morales, and Chad Vegas.

01:13:52

And please, if you attend, ask around and say, where's Chris Arnzen of Iron Trip and Zion Radio?

01:13:58

Because I would love to meet all of my listeners who attend this event, and I do intend to be there.

01:14:07

So, unless God has other plans, I will be in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania, May 28th through the 30th at the

01:14:14

East Coast Ministers Conference of the Banner of Truth. If you want to register yourself, just go to BannerofTruth .org,

01:14:24

BannerofTruth .org, click on events, and you will see a number of different events listed.

01:14:31

And I will be at, as I said, the East Coast Ministers Conference, May 28th through the 30th in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania, God willing.

01:14:39

And there are other events that the Banner of Truth is conducting in different parts of the

01:14:44

United States, and also different parts of the world. So, if you see a conference that the

01:14:50

Banner of Truth is having closer to where you live, like on the West Coast or in the United Kingdom, you can get details on registering for those conferences.

01:15:00

But I will be, God willing, at the East Coast Ministers Conference, May 28th through the 30th in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania, and I hope to see you there.

01:15:07

And then I am going to be heading in December the 19th and the 20th.

01:15:14

I will be heading to New York City, Manhattan, to be specific.

01:15:20

The Foundations Conference is being held in Manhattan again, and I love this conference.

01:15:27

And I urge you, if you'd like to go to this conference, to register as quickly as possible, because the venue only holds about 200 people.

01:15:35

The speakers include Dr. Stephen J. Lawson, who you just heard recently on the air here, promoting the

01:15:42

New Covenant Church NYC, a sponsor of Iron Trip and Zion Radio. Rev.

01:15:48

Jeff Thomas, one of the finest preachers alive. What a powerful preacher and what a humble man of God, Rev.

01:15:55

Jeff Thomas is from Wales. Richard Caldwell Jr.,

01:16:00

Rev. Armin Tomasian, who I am predicting is going to be a household name within the next decade. He is such a gifted young man, such a powerful preacher, such a biblically faithful preacher.

01:16:12

I just love hearing this man proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ. Andrew Quigley and Paul Washer has been recently added to the speaking roster at the

01:16:25

Foundations Conference, December 19th and the 20th, in Manhattan. And as I said, they have a small venue, so if you want to attend this event, register as quickly as possible.

01:16:35

Go to thefoundationsconference .com. Thefoundationsconference .com. Last but not least, if you love

01:16:41

Iron Trip and Zion Radio, you don't want us to disappear from the airwaves, you love the topics and guests that we feature on the show that sometimes are never heard anywhere else, you love sharing the free downloadable mp3s of our interviews with your family, friends, and loved ones, well please go to irontripandzionradio .com,

01:17:00

click support, then click, click to donate now. You could donate instantly with a debit or credit card by doing that, and you can also send in a check the old -fashioned way via snail mail to the address that appears on the screen if you prefer snail mail.

01:17:17

I have a caveat, two caveats that I announce every day, or at least I try to remember to.

01:17:23

Please never siphon money away from your regular giving to your local church where you are a member in order to give to Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

01:17:30

Never do that. Never put your family in financial jeopardy in order to give to find it in order to financially support

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Iron Trip and Zion Radio. Those two things are commands of God supporting your church and your home.

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Supporting my radio show is not a command of God, obviously, but if you are financially blessed above and beyond your ability to support your church and your home, please consider donating as frequently as you can and as heavily as you can.

01:17:57

Iron Trip and Zion Radio dot -com. Click support, then click, click to donate now.

01:18:03

If you want to advertise with us, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and as long as whatever it is you want to promote is compatible with what

01:18:10

I believe, we would love to help you launch an ad campaign. You don't have to believe identically with me, you just need to be promoting something that is compatible with what

01:18:18

I believe, and if you are not in a Bible -believing church, if you're not a member of a local

01:18:24

Bible -believing church and you're not prayerfully seeking for one, you are living in rebellion against God.

01:18:30

So please, if you can't find a church, you need help, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:18:37

and put something like, I need help finding a church, in the subject line, and I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the world so I can help you find one,

01:18:45

God willing, and I've helped people all over the world in our audience find churches already, and you could be one of them, and so please send me that email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:18:57

and put, I need a church home, in the subject line, or something similar. We are now back with our guest

01:19:04

Todd Pruitt, and we are discussing the controversial theme, gender sexuality, and what it means to be human.

01:19:12

If you have a question, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:19:18

We have Lou in Sharpsburg, Georgia, and Lou says, you mentioned ReVoice, there was another conference called

01:19:26

Living Out Hosted, I believe, by Sam Albury, with Tim Keller as one of the speakers.

01:19:34

It was held last year. Am I correct in being very alarmed about the content and speakers who

01:19:42

I just mentioned? Thank you. Why didn't you ask something controversial,

01:19:47

Lou? Yeah, yeah. You know, I know very little about living out.

01:19:55

I know that Sam Albury is associated with him. Sam has done some very good work in terms of reasserting biblical sexual ethics.

01:20:09

He's been very clear on that, but again, I'm not sure where he is in terms of some of these more particular issues that we're delving into, such as how we think about same -sex attraction.

01:20:25

You know, is it morally neutral?

01:20:31

Does it come out of a sinful place? Is it a part of human identity? I don't know where he is on those issues, so I really can't give a good answer on that.

01:20:44

And I have to be honest, in fact, I did a program with Phil Johnson, the executive director of Grace to You, the ministry of John MacArthur.

01:20:52

I did a program where we evaluated Tim Keller's participation in the

01:20:57

Veritas Forum a number of years ago, and Tim Keller did an absolutely abysmal, horrible job answering questions about homosexuality.

01:21:10

And I hear, I believe he may have given some kind of a retraction to it after that, but the thing is still circulating on YouTube, and I don't see anything officially, you know, where he is publicly making a very bold statement of any apology or correction.

01:21:31

It was really horrendous for somebody who is as knowledgeable of the scriptures as he is.

01:21:37

Yep, and what was so sad about that was, you know, and I don't,

01:21:45

I'm not making a comment about his character here, but he behaved in a way that was very cowardly in that moment.

01:21:56

I'm not entirely unsympathetic, he was at Harvard after all, but he had to know, you know, if you're a

01:22:04

Christian minister who is an ordained pastor in a denomination that says that homosexuality is a sin, and you go on the campus of Harvard University and aren't prepared to answer clearly a question about homosexuality,

01:22:23

I don't know what you're thinking. He seemed entirely unprepared to answer that, and then as he muddled through, it was just really sad to watch, because he was not able to give any kind of a clear explanation of what the

01:22:42

Bible taught, and it was an example of what happens to people, oftentimes Christians, who hold to an orthodox view of human sexuality.

01:22:51

It was a clear demonstration and an example of what happens so often, that we will retreat, that we will apologize, that we will end up, you know, hemming and hawing and not giving any kind of a clear answer.

01:23:06

You know, when asked directly in that kind of a forum, you know, is homosexuality a sin?

01:23:13

You say, yes, it is. And let me explain why the Bible condemns and prohibits homosexuality, because the

01:23:22

Bible's prohibition of homosexuality makes a lot of sense. Let me take some time to explain that to you now.

01:23:29

That's what you do. And if anybody is smart enough, you know, as you said, to do that well, it would have been

01:23:36

Tim Keller, and yet it didn't happen. Yeah, in fact, every time I side with Relief when he gave an answer that began well, all of a sudden he would say, but here's the problem with that.

01:23:51

The constant search for a third way is oftentimes his undoing, and sometimes you just need to give the simple, clear answer humbly.

01:24:08

If the question, and I feel like Tim and others, he's not the only one, strive so hard to make their hearers happy with their answer, well, then you're going to eventually muddle the truth and compromise on it.

01:24:27

Because the fact is, when it comes to homosexuality, there is no way to make a hostile questioner happy with your answer, if you're going to give the biblical answer.

01:24:41

No amount of trying to massage the truth and apologize for it is going to make it okay.

01:24:49

So you have to just go in knowing, okay, they're going to be angry about this, but if I have enough time to really take them into the

01:24:57

Scriptures to show them the moral coherence behind this, you know, maybe they can be open to the

01:25:03

Gospel. But you just have to begin with, see, I'm glad you answered the question, I'm going to give you the short answer, which

01:25:09

I think will frustrate you, but I hope you'll let me finish and give you the explanation as to why, you know.

01:25:15

That kind of approach is so much better than to try to find a way to make this person not mad, you know.

01:25:24

And it's so much more loving, in spite of what people think. They would think that your direct approach and purely honest approach is less loving, but it's more loving because we're supposed to be more concerned, number one, with honoring and obeying

01:25:40

God, number two, with the never - dying souls of sinners, than we are to be concerned about hurting people's feelings or winning them over as friends or keeping them as friends.

01:25:52

Exactly. And the fact is, you know, God's truth is really, really good. It's good.

01:25:58

God's law is really good. That means that his prohibition against sexual sins is really good.

01:26:05

It's good for people. And you never know when somebody who's asking you those questions in a hostile way, you know, you never know what

01:26:15

God is doing in their lives, where he's brought them by his providence, to a point where all they need at that point is a person who's going to love them enough to give them a good, clear, patient, biblical answer to their question.

01:26:32

Now, they also may throw something at you, but that's not up to you.

01:26:38

I have to say that I've only seen one video of a

01:26:44

Pastor Sam Albury giving a lecture, and I can say that I agreed with every single thing he said in this particular lecture, but there was one thing that concerned me.

01:26:59

Well, maybe two things. It is, he seemed to be resigned to the fact that his lot in life is to be same -sex attracted.

01:27:12

Even if he was very clear, he will not succumb to physically bringing that to consummation, but it's like he has waved the white flag, this is what

01:27:27

I am. And that's what you find, yeah. Well, I was just gonna say, and the other problem I have is,

01:27:33

I don't know if a person qualifies as a shepherd of Christ's flock who has that particular issue in his mind and heart.

01:27:42

But if you could, go ahead. Yeah, well, you know, you're raising a really good point here, because, and that's one of the problems

01:27:49

I have with the message that comes out of Revoice, the gay but celibate Christian. What these folks are saying is, this is who

01:27:58

I am. You know, gayness is my identity, and I will be a gay

01:28:06

Christian in heaven. Now again, they agree with the Bible's sexual ethics in terms of sex being for marriage between a man and a woman, but as you said, you know, they've raised the white flag.

01:28:20

This is always going to be who I am. And I'm, I understand that there are areas of sin and temptation, patterns of temptation, that folks will struggle with from one degree or another as long as they live south of heaven.

01:28:41

At the same time, do we not believe in the Holy Spirit? Do we not believe in sanctification?

01:28:50

Do we not believe that those who are in Christ are new creations? We reject any notion of perfectionism in this life.

01:28:59

You know, our sanctification won't be complete until we see Jesus, but there is sanctification.

01:29:06

And there are brothers and sisters out there who can testify that I at one time was wholly, only interested sexually in members of the same sex, and God has changed me.

01:29:19

Do I ever struggle with some of those temptations? Yeah, but I'm much farther down the road than I ever thought

01:29:24

I would be. You know, and they're married and they're able to engage in a happy, sexually satisfying marriage, and they would have never thought that before their conversion.

01:29:36

You know, so God does work in people's lives. He does work in people's lives so that alcoholics, you know, are liberated from alcoholism, and liars are liberated from lying, and thieves are liberated from thieving.

01:29:55

Well, do we not believe that the one who struggles with unnatural sexual attraction can experience at least some measure of victory over that?

01:30:08

If we don't, then we don't believe in sanctification. As Paul said, and some of you once were these things.

01:30:15

Former homosexuals, they used to be homosexuals, and they're not anymore. Yeah, exactly.

01:30:21

Just out of curiosity, what do you think about my comment slash question about whether or not a man who still has an ongoing struggle with same -sex attraction, is that person qualified for the pastoral ministry?

01:30:37

I would say no. I would not, you know, if somebody came before our

01:30:43

Presbytery for ordination and, you know, said, look, you know,

01:30:52

I'm celibate. I'm gonna remain celibate, but I do have, you know, my sexual attraction is towards members of the same sex.

01:31:01

I would say, you know, brother, sounds like you have a credible profession of faith in Christ.

01:31:07

I'm thankful for that. I'm thankful that you're committed to abstaining from immoral sexual acts, but I cannot in good conscience vote for your ordination so long as you believe that this is your identity and don't believe that the

01:31:27

Lord can sanctify you progressively more and more away from that. You know, so long as your belief is, this is my identity, this is my area of struggle,

01:31:43

I'm committed to fighting against it, but this is what it is. I just don't see how I could...well,

01:31:50

for the same reason, if somebody came before us and said, look, you know, I really struggle with wanting to have sex with other men's wives, you know,

01:32:01

I'd go, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, you know, we're not talking about passing a foolish indulgence in one's mind periodically, which is a sin, of course, but if you're saying, this is a daily thing for me that I really desire to have sex with other men's wives,

01:32:19

I'd go, brother, you're just not ready for ordination yet. Right. It's like, you know, like as...I'm

01:32:25

not saying that Sam Oldberry does this, because I never heard, at least in the one lecture that I heard,

01:32:32

I never heard him say, I am a gay Christian, but... Right. From what I understand, he rejects that.

01:32:38

I think he rejects that terminology. Okay, but those that do, it would be akin to someone saying, hi,

01:32:46

I am a heterosexual, adulterous, lusting Christian. Right. I mean, it's like, why would you even identify yourself that way?

01:32:56

Well, and I'll go you one further, you know, how many of us who do not have, you know, and I'm using

01:33:02

Paul's language here from Romans 1, who do not have unnatural affection, how many of us walk around and say, you know,

01:33:07

I'm a straight Christian, or I'm a heterosexual Christian? You know, we don't talk like that because we don't use those terms in reference to our identity.

01:33:19

You know, that they haven't become ultimate things for us.

01:33:24

It's a part of who we are, but we don't walk around thinking about ourselves in terms of sexual activity in respect to our identity.

01:33:36

And so it's troubling when those who, you know, for instance, in the revoiced crowd, you know, celibate, you know, gay but celibate, treat their same -sex attraction as a matter of personal being, personal identity.

01:33:54

That's very damaging, and again, that's a way of saying, you know, how can you see the

01:34:03

Lord sanctify you in that area if instead of calling it an area of sin, you're identifying it with who you are as a person?

01:34:14

You know, that's highly problematic. I'm going to ask you a question, and we're going to go to our final break, and you can answer it when we return from the break.

01:34:26

We have Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, who says,

01:34:34

I have a problem with Christians who use the line, sin is sin is sin, and they will equate a homosexual having unnatural lust for someone of the same gender with the sin of lust that heterosexuals go through, because I believe that sexual desire is a gift of God when it is heterosexual, but we can abuse it and turn it into sin, but homosexual lust is never a gift of God.

01:35:11

It is always sin, whether in thought or deed. If you could comment on this, it seems to come up a lot in Christian circles, even conservative and even reformed

01:35:21

Christian circles. It's a great question. And we could have you answer that when we return. This is our final break right now.

01:35:27

If you want to join us on the air with a question, do so now or forever hold your peace, because we're rapidly running out of time. chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:35:35

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

01:35:42

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the

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I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the Doctor of Ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles.

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If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching, in New York City, I'd like to recommend that you visit

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Gary Kimbrough, pastor of Bethlehem Baptist Church in Laurel, Mississippi. God tells us in James 127 that pure and undefiled religion is a visit to fatherless and widows and their affliction.

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In the providence of God, three years ago, I discovered a poor small church outside Lusaka, Zambia in a township called

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In this season of hope and giving, will you consider giving hope to 24 orphans? Please send your gift of any amount to Bethlehem Baptist Church, 838

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Again, the address is Bethlehem Baptist Church, 838 Reed Road, Laurel, Mississippi 39443, or bbclaurel .com.

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01:46:20

This is Chris Arnzen, and this is the last 15 minutes of our interview today with Todd Pruitt. If you have a question that you want to submit to us on gender, sexuality, and what it means to be human, send in your email immediately because we're running out of time.

01:46:35

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. And Todd, as I read

01:46:41

Susan Margaret's question from Dauphin County, Pennsylvania before the break, she basically wants to know, is there a difference between sin involving lust that is rooted in homosexuality rather than heterosexuality, or as the common phrase is often repeated, sin is innocent.

01:47:03

Yeah, well, in terms of what sin means in our standing before God, all sin is equally damning, but not all sin is equally damaging.

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And, you know, the Scriptures, the Apostle Paul specifically warns us that sins against the body, in which case he is talking about sexual sins, are particularly damaging, that they are actually worse than other kinds of sins.

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And they are. Sexual sins tend to have a much larger scope and the damage they do is wider and hurts more people.

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Now, when it comes to areas of temptation and areas of sexual desire, oftentimes you will hear from the gay

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Christian movement, the gay but celibate Christian movement, is a kind of an equivalency in sexual desire between homosexual and heterosexual.

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In other words, they'll kind of flatten the two into kind of a strange equivalency.

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Well, you know, I struggle with desiring people of the same sex, you struggle with desiring people of the opposite sex, they're both sins.

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And I would agree that that lust is lust, but there is a legitimate way to have opposite -sex sexual attraction.

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There's a legitimate, God -glorifying, indeed necessary, way to have sexual attraction to members of the opposite sex.

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We wouldn't get married and procreate if that were not the case. But there's no way to legitimately satisfy a same -sex attraction.

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There's no legitimate outlet for that, no legitimate expression of same -sex sexual attraction.

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But being sexually attracted to a member of the opposite sex has a place in the life of a person interested in glorifying

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God. Now, we understand that because we're sinful, that legitimate attraction can and does turn into lust.

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It can...if you're married and you begin to lust after other women, Jesus tells us very quickly, very clearly, that that is adultery in the heart.

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But, you know, those who are young and they're growing and their body is changing, they begin to experience sexual attraction.

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That's part of how God has made them. They've been created that way, and what they need, of course, are godly parents and a good church to help them reign certain thoughts in so that they don't become lustful, help to protect them against ways that they would want to act out on those attractions, which they shouldn't.

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But they have the good news of knowing that there is this wonderful gift of marriage that God has given to humanity, where that God -given sexual attraction can find its expression and can be there for the deepening of that marriage and for the pleasure and the good of both husband and wife.

01:50:43

So same -sex sexual attraction and opposite -sex sexual attraction are not at all equivalent.

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They are fundamentally different, morally fundamentally different. There is a way for opposite -sex sexual attraction.

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That is a good thing that can be twisted by sin. Same -sex sexual attraction is not good.

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It comes out of a sinful place and can only be satisfied in sinful ways.

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And so they are fundamentally different. Yeah, the Bible calls it unnatural. Unnatural.

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And it's great that Paul uses that language, because one of the things that's implied in that language is that even the unbeliever can know it.

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Even the unbeliever can know that homosexuality is wrong.

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The very construction of their body testifies to the fact that it is wrong.

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It's one of those things, again to use a language from natural law, it's one of the things you can't not know.

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And so Paul uses that language of natural and unnatural. So we know that homosexuality and homosexual attractions are wrong, not only because what

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God clearly states in his word, but also because of what God has written in his book of nature, so to speak.

01:52:19

You can't not know it's wrong. Right. Here's a controversial question for you.

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I remember, it wasn't that long ago, but I remember when I first started hearing homosexuals say that they were born that way, there was an immediate reaction by Christians, conservative

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Bible -believing Christians, to say, no way, Jose, you can't be born that way. And I joined in on that.

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But then I started to think about the fact, if I believe in total depravity, if I believe we are conceived in sin, and we come from the womb, a liar and other things, as David says in the

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Psalms, why would it be out of the question for someone to have a proclivity towards homosexuality if they are totally depraved before the regeneration?

01:53:28

Now, I have to give this quick caveat. I am not saying that somebody can use that as an excuse to sin.

01:53:36

No, of course not. I mean, you're making a point that I agree with, which is, I've been asked this many, many times, you know, are homosexuals born that way?

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Well, I can only conclude that some who struggle with same -sex attraction, there may be something in their emotional makeup that goes back to birth that made them more susceptible to these kinds of unnatural attractions.

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There's nothing about granting that possibility that in any way would necessitate us concluding that, therefore, practicing the sin of homosexuality is okay.

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Any more than we would say, if someone is born with a more physiological proclivity towards addiction, we would not say to that person, therefore, if you indulge in alcohol or drugs in these addictive ways, it's okay, because you were born with that proclivity.

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No, we would say to that person, you know what, that's hard, and that's really sad and unfortunate.

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It just means that that area is going to be tougher for you than another person.

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It just means that you're going to need your brothers and sisters in Christ to help walk alongside of you, to walk in holiness.

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Yeah, that area is just going to be tougher for you than it is for me. But you know what, I've got this area over here that might be tougher for me than it is for you.

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So yeah, if somebody were to discover, which has never happened, but if somebody were to discover a difference in the brain structure, for instance, of someone who is attracted more to members of the same sex,

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I don't know how that could ever be discovered, but let's posit that it happens. That doesn't change anything about what the

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Bible says about sexuality, nor does it change anything about the damage that homosexual behavior does to the human person.

01:55:37

Right. You know, a physiological predisposition towards homosexuality, all of a sudden doesn't make all of the terrible physical problems that homosexuals go through suddenly go away.

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It doesn't make the sin less damaging. It's still a sin, it's still damaging, it still does terrible things to the body and to the emotions.

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So yeah, we should expect, in a world that is fallen and sinful, in fact our theology demands that it reaches into every area including our genetics.

01:56:18

Right, and one of the things that I think can be damaging by insisting that somebody could not possibly be born with that proclivity is that when we say to somebody who is either struggling with this sin or who has boldly and proudly identified themselves with the sin, is when we say to them, you know, this was your choice, and they look back at their own lives, they look back at their childhood, and they can honestly say, no it wasn't.

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They obviously have to choose to participate in it and to yield to it. But as far as the attraction goes, like for instance, in a part of Sam Albury's lecture, he said that he never chose this way, he just always remembers from his youngest years when he began to be sexually attracted to anybody, it was towards people of the same sex.

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And who am I to say, no that's not true, because that's not even the important issue.

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The important issue is, doesn't matter, you need to repent and flee to Christ. And I've even heard of studies done, and I don't know how accurate they are, but people,

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I heard of a study where men who have more testosterone than the average man are more prone to violence, and that many people in prison who are violent criminals had more testosterone.

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Now they may have been born with that, but that doesn't mean that we say, okay we got to give them a break for beating people up and killing them.

01:57:56

Exactly, exactly. We are all born with a predisposition to sin, and that's going to look different ways in different people's lives.

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We know that, as you quoted earlier, David's own words, we're conceived in sin, we come out of the womb ready to sin.

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I'm not only guilty from the imputation of Adam's sin, but also guilty because we, you know, nobody ever has to teach us how to sin.

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And so, yeah, the possibility that there could be a physiological explanation for some people's same -sex attraction doesn't change anything about the morality of homosexuality.

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It just doesn't change it at all. Well, we are out of time, and I want to make sure that our listeners have all the information they need to get a hold of you, and also to attend the

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Gender, Sexuality, and What It Means to Be Human conference, March 29th through the 30th, at the

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Covenant Presbyterian Church of Harrisonburg, Virginia. The website is

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AllianceNet .org, AllianceNet .org, click Events, and then scroll down to the

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Blue Ridge Bible Conference 2019 on Gender, Sexuality, and What It Means to Be Human. And also, if you want more information about the church where our guest is the pastor, you can go to Cov, C -O -V, dash,

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Prez, P -R -E -S, dot org, Cov, dash, Prez, dash, dot org.

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And that is the Covenant Presbyterian Church of Harrisonburg, Virginia. Thank you so much, Todd.

01:59:36

A pleasure, Chris. I look forward to having you back on the show often. I was really impressed with you today, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater