Christian Nationalism Goes Mainstream, Moody Still Kinda Woke, IVF, & Those TicTok Dancers

Introduction and Upcoming New Mexico Conference

Fellow patrons fellow countrymen and everyone who listens to the conversations that matter podcast. Good afternoon. I hope you're having a wonderful afternoon wherever you are. This is an unannounced podcast.

I Announced it about half an hour ago, and I'm starting it a few minutes early. Which maybe is different for me some of you are used to me starting fashionably Three to five minutes, maybe sometimes ten minutes depending.

After the the announcement date to make sure everyone is here, but uh, but I'm on a little bit of a time crunch so I'm starting now and We have lots to talk about we're gonna have fun today on the podcast.

I hope I think. For those who are gonna see me in New Mexico this weekend I am very much looking forward to it and I need to Let you know about that before I say anything else because I'm the worst at telling people about where I'm gonna be.

But I am gonna be in Albuquerque, New Mexico for the reclaim Conference and that's March 2nd to 3rd. You can go to John Harris podcast comm if you click the link. It's working now reclaim conference at Redemption Hill Church, and there's more info there.

I'm gonna be talking about biblical definitions really just how the social justice movement has corrupted definitions of certain words and How we should go about navigating that. So that's gonna be on Saturday and then Sunday morning.

I'm gonna be talking a bit about I think Gideon I've been Looking into that and I love Gideon. He's one of my favorite Bible characters. I have a number it's hard to pick but he is one of my favorites and Anyway, so we may talk about that.

And and the reason really just briefly for everyone the reason I'm thinking about that is um, you know I've spoken on Gideon at least once before because I know of no other Encourage better encouraging Story to help people gain courage.

There's many in Scripture. But for some reason Gideon to me because he's he's kind of like such a mess up in some ways. Like he just he lacks faith. He's hiding.

And.

And then he goes in against all odds and he wins and I don't think God's changed. I think he's the same God Today that he was back then. So it'll be encouraging and looking forward to seeing you all in New Mexico this weekend.

And. One other thing before we get into the myriad of topics I want to just play. This is a one-minute spot for our sponsor equipping the persecuted so. This is a very important issue in my estimation helping Christians in Nigeria who are being persecuted by Muslims, so.

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Charlie Dates, Moody, and the Logic of Social Justice

I don't know exactly where we should dive in first because there's a bunch of different topics.

I.

Think we'll start with social justice stuff. There's actually a few things I guess related to social justice. But the most overtly social justice stuff. First if that's okay a few people sent me this clip.

This is from Charlie dates. He was a pastor in the Southern Baptist Convention up until I think it was like two years ago. He left in a huff because the SPC is you know, not taking racial justice seriously in his mind.

And I mean, this is after everything the SPC does every year. To bend over backwards in their resolutions and their seminaries. Which have been pumping in social justice stuff. It's still not enough for someone like Charlie dates.

And we've talked about him on the podcast before. I think we played some of his clips. I know he spoke at Southeastern and he showed up in one of those Montages that we talked about on the podcast. He's a guy though that thinks that.

There's.

Like he sees a civil rights movement and what Martin Luther King jr. Was doing as Intrinsically tied to the gospel and I don't know exactly where he lands on like what is the gospel to him? I'm not exactly sure.

I know he's he says things that sound like they're liberation theology, but here's what he had to say Just a few days ago. It was this week at At Moody. I said, I think I say Wheaton before it was at Moody at Moody Bible Institute and you know Moody's been Known at least traditionally as a fairly conservative evangelical Institution and you know, I I looked at I watched the whole chapel and there was a number of things in there that I Picked out that I was like, okay.

This is definitely they're definitely Swallowing some of the woke stuff, but but this is just one clip. I want to share with you from the sermon It's nothing earth-shattering. You've heard this kind of stuff before but it's still happening at places like Moody.

So Charlie dates at Moody in chapel talking to students. Some of them will be prospective pastors. Here we go cannot separate.

The holiness of God. From the demand of the justice of God for the oppressed. In other words, you cannot have just this high holy lofty God and not be concerned about low marginalized people. We have all kind of organizations today That want to protest but they don't know how to pray.

And yet we got people who know how to pray but they refuse to protest.

I just want to say one thing. This is a serious charge whether you realize it or not. This is Charlie dates saying that there's a big problem in the evangelical landscape with Presumably pastors but leaders in in evangelicalism and Christianity Who are making a separation between the character of God his holiness and then Working towards lifting oppression and so he's saying if you fail to Lift oppression and fight just against injustice in this kind of thing in his scheme, whatever that means Civil rights stuff definitely plays into it, but there's definitely If you track with Charlie dates and what he said over the years there's definitely a CRT adjacent thing going on there as well, but but if you don't if you fail to protest, okay against Racial injustice and that kind of thing.

You actually don't really think that God must be that holy. I mean, that's a serious accusation. And so I just don't want people to miss that. It's it's not something casual. He's saying like you've missed the boat on who God is You it's like coming very close to saying you're an idolatry like you don't actually have the right God perhaps.

Like you don't you don't know him. You don't take him seriously because Because you're failing in in whatever social justice stuff, so all right, let's keep going here.

And I know this I I'm trying now to work with pastors in our city across the racial line to prepare us for this election to train poll workers and to get people ready so that we can Actually serve the marginalized so nobody will be able to stand up and say the election was stolen.

No.

We need Christians in the place where these things are happening and I'm struck by The reticence and the hesitance of people who have never suffered from oppression who know how to pray. But they don't want to step into the place to help folk get liberated.

Okay, so if you we've gotten a window into what this liberation now looks like like a concrete example. It's him working with pastors to do what to get people registered to vote and So so that no one will be able to say that the election was stolen.

I guess that's so I don't know exactly. He's not saying what candidate but I know He might still be on the board. He was on the board. I know he was for the and campaign. Which means he's more on the left.

I'm assuming this means that I guess the Democrats are going to win and it's there's not going to be a question it's going to be so large that no one's going to be thinking that there could have been a Stolen election here because the Christians are motivated on the left side of the spectrum.

I don't know how else to make sense of it, but voting getting people registered to vote. That's. That's that's your justice thing. So you you must not think God is that holy if you're not involved in doing that and You must speak from a place of privilege without having experienced injustice if you're not involved in doing that if you just pray.

But you're not actively being an activist. Essentially like you have to do this thing and I've said this many times about social justice warriors they. Especially in the church. They will use the gospel.

They will use your theology against you to try to motivate you to take part in left-wing activity and with the assumption that if you don't then you're lacking somehow in your Christian Christian witness your Christian identity maybe even the gospel itself.

And so Charlie Dates is doing something that we've seen many times here.

I'm saying that you listening to me here today. Especially you my vanilla brothers and sisters when you come of age and you get in the ministry. You cannot leave your chocolate and brown brothers and sisters to the margins fighting for the oppressed by themselves.

But you gotta do it.

So so he's singling out the white people now. He's saying if you're white and You're not registering people to vote. I mean, that's the concrete example. He gave you're not out there doing this political thing.

You're not making sure that the election is Not even a close call that people don't have to question it because you got involved in fighting against injustice. If you're a white person and you're not doing that then I mean, what are we supposed to assume?

Well, you're I guess you're kind of a you're a racist I guess you're you're someone who doesn't really care about your brothers and sisters. This is how you prove that you care. It's so manipulative. Like if you You can't just pray you can't do something you you can't you know Do something that you consider to be before God a generous thing a nice thing a Christian thing you gotta fit into this pattern that Charlie Dates is laying down this political thing and.

And that's how you prove that you really care for your black.

Brothers and sisters. On the basis of the character and the holiness of God. Nobody's asking you to sacrifice.

Orthodoxy.

To fight for justice. Hold on to the fact that Jesus is the only way to the father. Hold on to the fact that we believe in the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit. Hold on to the fact that there is a heaven to be gained and a hell to shine.

Hold on to the fact that we are to walk up rightly. But because of that we refuse to accept injustice against the marginalized.

Now some of the things he mentions here. I mean, I obviously it's pretty general I don't disagree with you know, there's a there's a heaven. There's a hell to be shunned. He said there's Father Son, Holy Spirit.

I mean a lot of the liberation theologians can even affirm this stuff, but they mean different things by it. So I don't know exactly where Charlie Dates is on all of this. I do know though that's been the tempting thing for Christians really since the 60s 70s when I The era I wrote about in social justice goes to church.

It's this idea that you can hold on to your orthodoxy because because let's face it you lose it. So easily when you go down this path, you know, you can look at the main lines for that. But In fact, my dad and I were talking this morning about Just kind of like the North and the South and especially the Northeast is basically godless at this point.

They're pagan. They're pagan.

Churchless.

Unchurched right? I mean, it's it's it's becoming like unreached people status. And in the South you still have all these churches and people in Christianity, but it's becoming so heretical. So you have a semblance of Christianity, but it's heretical and if you turn the clock back a hundred years.

You would have said well the North and the South both have you know churches and stuff. But the North was was more heretical at least I'm not saying across the board, you know, but in general I'm saying and There is this like This progression that takes place it's not like Regions go from we're just saturated in Christianity with blue laws to now we're pagan overnight it does take a little time and there are these gradual stages in between and there is usually a kind of apostasy and You know churches that people are still meeting there, but they don't actually Love the Lord.

They don't follow his word. It's not a really a church. It's a social club. It's something else and. And that's what we've seen in our country and when people go down this road of paganism the social justice is mixed in with that it's social justice is really becoming broadly speaking a Religion in and of itself.

That's the premise of my second book on social justice Christianity and social justice and. So the churches that adopt us end up syncretizing and they end up going heretical. Eventually, so that's why Charlie dates has to say this because that's the Association people.

Think that okay, you're gonna have a rainbow flag outside your church and you're going to it's funny. He didn't use that example. He didn't say like you can hold on to biblical gender roles or something.

He used other stuff, but but you know, eventually you are gonna deny the Trinity or I'll redefine it really. That's usually what they do to redefine it or something so this has been the temptation that you can keep your theology and just go socially left and The evidence shows that you really can't that.

Over time if you go socially left, it's gonna pull your theology with you. So That's Charlie dates at Moody and you know I'm sorry for those who like John Senny who say I'm so disheartened by the direction of my school Moody has gone I'm sorry for all the Moody folks who are watching this.

And.

Andrew asks Wow, does this include Paul or Jesus? Didn't the left always treat the render unto Caesar even the right would want to introduce social politics? I'm not exactly sure what you're asking in the last section there, but I think I understand with the Paul and Jesus.

Yeah. I mean did they not fight enough for for their for the gospel? Did they not really believe that God is who he said he was? Because they weren't doing a social justice thing. Yeah, and Pastor Michael asks, who is this guy at Charlie dates.

Charlie dates is who it is. So you can look at him up. I've talked about him before. All right, so. So that's number one the second thing I wanted to talk about on the podcast is. It's a point I've made many times, but I figure we'll make it one more time.

How's that because there's been a bunch of things this week that kind of? Point in this direction and it's getting silly at this point. And then of course I'm talking about this this whole debate over quote-unquote Christian nationalism, this is a clip on MSNBC.

From earlier this week that unites all of them because there's many different groups orbiting Trump. But the thing that we're not unites them as Christian nationalists. Not Christians, by the way. Because Christian nationalists is very different is that they believe that our rights as Americans as all human beings Don't come from any earthly authority.

They don't come from Congress. They don't come to the Supreme Court. They come from God.

Wow.

So.

Man.

It's really broad at this point. I mean, it's beyond just Christians I guess you know if you just believe your our rights come from God. Then that makes you a Christian nationalist. Thomas Jefferson all of a sudden became a Christian nationalist, right?

And and this is something that from the beginning. From like, you know 2020 when this started really Being talked about more in mainstream media I've said this. I know others have said this all this is is an attempt to Spread a wide net around all Christians who would want to be influential in the government.

I mean this net is even wider than that though. This isn't even just Christians. If you just believe our rights come from God, then then you're a Christian nationalist according to this Panel on MSNBC and there's a movie right now out.

I haven't actually watched it. But I read the book and did a review of the power worshipers. But the movies God and country and from the people who have seen it who tell him have talked about at least online.

And told me about it. It's pretty much the same thing. It's it's this really wide net of like if you're a Christian you want to influence Society or government then you're a Christian nationalist and you're someone who's very scary and to be feared.

And so obviously everyone. Who wants to maintain a Christian witness? Publicly is going to get this title going to get this label. You can't really avoid it and. And I think that's important to note. Yeah, there's some people out there that I've even had some of them on the podcast like Stephen Wolfe.

There's really I'm like who else is there Stephen Wolfe? I guess Andrew Torver wrote a book that talks about Christian nationalism and Andrew Risker but okay, so those guys have taken it positively and then they've taken their own ideas about politically about.

And socially and they've kind of used the banner of Christian nationalism to represent those. But but this whole thing predates them and it's just been a smear the media's used and so Christians Christians predictably.

Many of them at least want to somehow still create all this space as if it's gonna help them. I don't I really don't get it. Like they want to distance themselves from it still it's a like, you know. Just like we saw we saw in that clip of from MSNBC.

It's not Christians. Christian nationalists. Not the Christians. They're okay. And and and so a lot of Christians want to be like I want to be in that category. So bad the Christians category not the Christian nationalist category, which is impossible.

You can't if you're gonna be a serious Christian you really there's no way for you to win that. But they're still trying to do it so there's been a bunch of pieces on this. Let me give you let me show you one of them if I may this is from mere orthodoxy mere orthodoxy and.

It's a piece in or no, sorry not mirror isn't no pathios my bad pathios. Why did I get those confused? All right Christian nationalism as folk religion by Roger Olson, February 23rd 2024. I'm not gonna read the whole thing, but let me give you the gist of it.

One of the most influential articles I read was by sociologists of religion Robert Elwood who I got to know personally later. It was about Christianity's down-home turn right now. I don't remember where it was published, but I cut out the article and kept it he goes on he talks about what folk religion is and I intellectual a historical and then of course within the second paragraph the religion of Germany in the 1930s and early 1940s was the National Socialist idea of Ger Germania and Aryan race and it's these people.

Cannot like they have like two categories, you know, and one of them is Nazis. They just can't even like write without somehow referencing the Nazis somehow.

So.

The rest of the article goes as predictably as you would imagine again. This is you know, supposedly there's a Christian website and there's an author who thinks they're Christian and.

And.

He says the problem of course is that almost every American Christian nationals will deny that their nationalism is religious. And reject any claim that it borders on idolatry or as a folk religion rather than biblical Orthodox.

But one has to pay attention to their rhetoric about America and their actions and placing American patriotism above even commitment to Jesus and the church. Or they mix and mingle blend their patriotism with their commitment to Jesus and the church inappropriately.

Jesus is Lord and America is God's chosen country to save the world are Placed on an equal plane and mixed together to the point that alright, so he's talking about certain Self-professed Christians out there who and you and I know who he's talking about.

So it's the cartoony really goofy ones who? Really have bought into a cartoon of America that it's basically like Israel and America's God's chosen nation now.

And.

And because of that It's gonna survive forever. It's perpetual. It's never gonna go away and we need to fight for it. And it's. And it they emerge they mingle. Things, okay, I'm not gonna say that those people don't exist at all.

I don't think they're as influential as the left wants to make out but. But again the point of me Reading this or showing you this is that you don't miss the attempt being made here. The attempt is to quarter off Christian nationalism to it's those guys.

It's the crazy uncles over there.

That's what it is.

You know that and of course the media is not using the term that way. The media never used the term. To just mean that. They may mean those people but they mean more than that. They mean you and me. And so when Christians try to do this thing where they quarter off Christian nationalism to it's those guys.

It's not us. Then what they do is they effectively.

Keep the.

Vilification of the term and the people associate. Associated with it going. They do the media. They carry the media's water. They agree with the media. They come alongside the media and say oh, yeah, those Christian nationals really bad.

But it's really these guys that go after them. It's them not us.

And.

This is the same thing that we saw. I feel like I'm replaying history here a bit and it's not even old ancient history. It's recent. It's the same kind of thing We saw in 2020 and before that a bit with Christians trying to be like hey I know that there's racist evangelicals out there according to the media and I know there's these sexist evangelicals out there.

He's misogynist. It's those guys though go after them it's not us, you know, we're the good Christians and Russell Moore, of course has done this shtick for a long time. It doesn't work though long. It just doesn't work.

It ends up you end up actually infiltrating your own people because your own people now are like, you know thinking Okay, the media is reporting accurately on this. There is this big threat and and and they just end up thinking that.

You know, they end up getting confused and the water just gets muddy. You know, why not just say hey, let's fight the media. Media's trying to make us look like we're this scary. Christians are scary because they think something like well our rights come from God and that's scary.

Let's talk about that. Is that scary? Why is that scary? What if our rights don't actually come from God? What does that mean? That's scary to me, right? We're not doing that instead we're we're we're looking at and I say we loosely I'm saying, you know people with platforms and evangelical circles.

They maybe I'll say that see you now. I got to make the division. Okay, well we we'll go back to we you know, we Look at what the media is doing and we see power. We see the ability to punish and we're afraid and I think it's just a lack of fear of God.

I think that's what drives this kind of thing. And so we want to somehow get in their corner have them on our side and if they can be weaponized against other Christians. That's okay. As long as they're not coming to our house.

So My two cents I've made this point. I don't know how many times but I'm in merits, you know making the point again. Okay, so let's see not many questions coming in but but many comments. Would Anita Smith says would these naysayers prefer Muslim nationalism leftist?

Probably? Yes. Well, yeah, they never go after that. And and there's probably a myriad of reasons for it. They see their political enemies as Christians, right? So that's why they don't see Muslims as their political enemies.

It's that simple. It's the friend-enemy distinction. It's that simple.

The Christian Nationalism Label and the Media's Smear Tactic

Okay.

Let's let's switch gears here a Bit. I'm debating what we ought to talk. Oh, sorry. I can't switch gears. I forgot. There's a good piece on this whole topic that I was gonna let you know about so let me let you know about that.

And then we'll switch gears. So this is by Steve Dace. The debate is over. We're all Christian nationalists. Now. The debate is over. We're all Christian nationalists. Now the Christian nationalism debate was always a scam.

He says which is why as someone who by God's grace is one of the largest audiences of Bible-believing Christians in the country I never bothered to wade into it. Instead I waited for those provoking it to reveal their true purpose for doing so and finally it happened last week.

So he talks about the clip that I just played. He wraps up the piece it's short. He says if you are guilty of loving the Lord. While also daring to show any respect whatsoever for actual American history, and that is all.

And that is still a lot of people who have various opinions about Donald Trump. Then you are pronounced guilty by the very forces trying to destroy the last morsels of a country once called exceptional and No amount of nuance or a shuckery can save you.

And that's what he's talking about what I was just talking about the you know. For the spirit of the age offers no forgiveness. It only demands your compliance. I assure you that every time you turn on to tolerance Boulevard You will find it is a one-way street.

The debate that never was is now over. We are all Christian nationalists now. I agree. That was always the purpose of it.

So.

All right, that is now we can switch gears now we can switch gears. Let's talk about What should we do first? Should we do the dancing stuff on Twitter or the IV? Let's do the IVF stuff. I don't think it'll it'll take me long and it isn't comprehensive.

Just a few thoughts. I want to share and and also just preview. I guess give you a preview. I do plan at some point Not right this second, but I do plan on giving a much more comprehensive kind of direction on Not just IVF but fertility treatments in general.

And the reason for me is somewhat personal when I started looking into that this kind of thing I'm gonna be honest with you. I couldn't find any and I'm not saying they don't exist. But I at the time I could not find any.

Good.

Christian resources on the topic. It's like they don't exist. They're outdated a lot of the information. They're some of them are silly and you know, some were decent but it's just it was incomplete. And so so that is something that I want to get out there at some point to help people.

That that's my goal is to help people. But let me just say a few things because it is in the news. It is a moral issue. Christians are weighing in on it. And so I think that I shot probably should say something about it.

Briefly speaking as many of you know in Alabama Supreme Court essentially there was a case that came up where there was some. Some chill we're gonna call them what they are their children, right? Fertilized embryos blastocysts that were in a freezer and there was and I don't know if the I don't know what exactly what happened with the freezer.

But they they ended up they died. And so this is a tragedy, right?

And.

And so they were liable in the case and so you have three at least three now. IVF clinics made the biggest ones apparently in the state that are. Until they get some clarification legally, they're just not doing IVF anymore because It's they don't know how to proceed apparently.

So this has opened up a whole discussion in evangelicalism and Beyond about IVF the morality of IVF. What is permissible? What is not? That kind of thing and there was What I would consider to be a decent piece now, I can't find it.

I thought I had it pulled up. Give me a second. I will find this piece. There was a decent piece that was put out by breakpoint and Yeah, here it is.

And. And.

And it's it's pretty short. It's actually very short. There's a an interview that accompanies it or I guess it's a maybe it's a reading of it. It's like six minutes long. And so I'm not endorsing everything breakpoint.

I'm not. I'm certainly not endorsing everything John Stone Street. There's things he said that I've disagreed with in the past. But you know, it seems like this is somewhat in my opinion of a balanced take.

He says a decision by the so he talks about we just talked about the this case. He said. The panic which has been typical of the media coverage about the decision makes sense given that the court finally addressed the central question of IVF a question that the IVF industry has Largely depended upon not being answered in order to grow and expand.

He's absolutely right. Specifically the court's decision has only put a certain kind of fertility called in limb care in limbo. Fertility care that involves the creating storing preserving and destroying of human embryos that is key.

Let me read that again. The only thing this is affected even though there's been a media frenzy saying this ends all IVF and all you know assisted Reproduction technologies and so forth. It doesn't this is what it actually specifically addresses.

Fertility care that involves the creating storing preserving and destroying big. Flashing destroying on that word of human embryos asking the question What are they was long overdue given that approximately 1 .5 million embryos?

Left over from IVF services are currently stored in freezers in the United States and which is is crazy. It's crazy. Okay, the vast majority of which are destined for either destruction or donation for medical testing.

I mean, this is a travesty. There's no doubt about it. Even if late incoming pro-lifers have been right to celebrate this small bit of ethical clarity for an industry with little of it. Even if late-incoming, sorry I read that wrong pro-lifers have been right.

During IVF eggs are fertilized with sperm in a lab often multiple embryos are created and tested for viability. So it just explains the process of IVF. Pro-lifers are right to celebrate the courts recognition of the humanity of these embryos.

It says though at the same time the decision fails to answer another question. If an embryo must be considered a child if destroyed by accident. What about when it is created stored in a freezer and destroyed intentionally?

The three couples involved in the Alabama case wish to hold the clinic responsible for the loss of their embryonic children but as the court's opinion plainly states. The fondest elected in the family in their contract with the center to automatically destroy any embryos That had remained frozen longer than five years the pages chose to donate similar embryos to medical researchers whose project would result in the destruction of the embryos and another family agreed to allow any abnormal embryos created through IVF to be experimented on for research purposes and then discard it.

Their ruling creates or reveals a legal contradiction similar to that which exists in states with both abortion rights and double homicide laws. If a pregnant woman and her pre-born baby are killed the perpetrators can be charged with two counts of homicide.

Yet if that same woman escaped an assault and drove to an abortion clinic the same day. There would be no charge of homicide legally speaking in the Alabama case. The court established that the moral nature of an embryo gives it the same legal protections as a born human under the state's wrongful death status Statute why then should the same embryo not be afforded protection from imprisonment trafficking experimentation and eventual destruction.

So it doesn't go far enough. Strictly speaking IVF can be done in a way that does not lead to the creation of excess embryos. And then it talks about that. And some of these embryos may be implanted but most will not so it just talks about that.

So let me let me just briefly say this About this whole issue since you know. And I'll probably just make make people who are hardcore on either side mad at me. Because I I'm not giving myself the time to you know, go down every rabbit hole here but essentially, you know what you have with IVF is You you have you know, like like other medical procedures where you have the human body being affected by the fall things aren't working properly and The normal process of Fertilization that takes place in the womb isn't happening for whatever reason it could be the husband.

It could be the wife could be both and There is a way to fertilize an embryo by taking sperm from the man taking a woman's eggs Harvesting the eggs. So you have to go through there's a surgical procedure here and You can take them and then you can the procedure can be done in a lab I usually it's a An X X these they call it but it's a procedure where they will take and actually inject into the egg a sperm and It doesn't have to be that way.

There's there's other ways of doing it. But that's that's a common way today and Then it is implanted again in the womb in the in the wife's womb and So then the wife Continues and is is pregnant, right?

Or if it doesn't implant, you know, they're not and of course, there's risk to this a lot. A lot of clinics will freeze the embryos. Anyway, so some clinics that's that's just what they do because there's actually a higher percentage generally speaking of Fertilized embryos of humans that will implant and come to term.