John Samson Interview

Hello dear ones, my name is Justin Peters. I hope that you and your family are doing well today I want to thank you for watching this video and in this video

I'm going to interview a friend of mine named John Sampson and John was a former

Word of Faith preacher and even hosted some TBN programs as well, and he

Knows a lot of the prominent Word of Faith preachers like Jesse Duplantis and Andrew Womack He knows those guys and so he's going to give us his testimony

About how God delivered him out of that deception and actually did this Interview and we did it in two different installments on two different days and about the one hour five minute mark

It'll go into the second installment and in the second installment John's gonna tell us about some of the more dramatic experiences such as speaking in tongues you you really don't want to miss that part speaking in tongues being slain in the spirit and and then just the the fundamental problem of the the horizontal nature of The gospel of the

Word of Faith movement. And so there's there's a lot of stuff here I think it will encourage you.

I hope maybe for some it would even challenge you Maybe if you're watching this and you are dabbling in the

Word of Faith movement, or maybe you're part of it I really hope that you will watch this John's a great guy super great guy pastors of church in Kings and pastors of church in Peoria, Arizona Named Kings Church, and I have all the links provided in the

Description below. Okay. All right. So into the interview John brother.

Welcome to the program How are you today? I'm good. Very very good. And it's joy and delight and honor to be with you

Justin Thank you. Thank you, John. I appreciate so much you joining me. What what year was that that you and I met?

Do you remember? I think it was three years ago at the Shepherds conference I think we'd said hello and met online so to speak, but that was the first in person.

Okay, although I think we did meet at Globe, Arizona Yeah, yeah, that might have been before.

Yeah, I think so. Yeah But the first first real conversation, I guess a few years ago.

So yes. Yeah Well John, so people might already even be able to tell that you have a bit of an accent so tell us kind of where you're from and your testimony and What you're of course

I should have said this initially John is the pastor of Kings Church in Peoria, Arizona Peoria is a kind of a suburb of Phoenix there should have started with that and and I love by the way

I love the name of your church Kings Church. I think that's great But so we'll kind of work our way up to where you are now.

So where where did you begin brother? Tell us some of your background. I was very young when

I was born and I was a very close and we drifted apart after that but Born in Chester England about 20 miles south of Liverpool and Grew up there and my father was a preacher although it didn't feel like The normal pastor's kid environment my father more more or less traveled a lot rather than stay in one place

And so I didn't have the church environment, although very much a Christian environment but I remember reading the

Bible that my dad was reading I was aged eight and Saw him after he'd been reading for about 20 minutes or so And he he stepped out of the room and I started reading the

Bible and I found nothing in it Drew me to ever read it again and I was wanting to be a professional soccer player and I just made this mental decision of Whatever my dad's doing.

It's not for me Until I was age 14. My father asked me to go to a service. I hadn't been a church in many years and he knew that the gospel would be preached and I really came under conviction and Realized I was a sinner before a holy

God and I couldn't say I had any standing with him and I Pinpoint the age of 14 when

I came to the Lord that that night and did what I was asked to do raise the hand Walk the aisle sign the card but more than anything just aware of my fact that the fact that I was a sinner and needed salvation and Came back to my seat after about 15 minutes in a counseling room

And I think that's the only time I ever saw my father in tears. He was still crying Was apparently my mom and dad have been very concerned

I was wrapped up in heavy metal music pursuing a career even at that stage of wanting to be a soccer player and way away away from the

Lord and That's the time when I came to the Lord. Yeah All right.

Wow so Fast -forwarding through your teenage years and where did your what did you start you wanted to be a soccer player?

Did that ever come to fruition or what? I went as far as I I could at age 16

I was chosen for the Chester under 19s team and was pursuing that but the the moment

I was converted the desire for the scripture just the contrast between age they was was so diametrically opposed to the other

And I wanted this scripture. I wanted to know the truth and I wanted to preach and I actually preached my first sermon at age 15

And walked away from what could have been a soccer career who knows what would have happened but began pursuing

Ministry and as soon as I'd gone through high school and worked a little bit went to a seminary in England, which was a

Pentecostal charismatic type of settings called Elam Bible College is now called

Regents Theological College And I Actually wanted to go to Ramer and Was accepted by Ramer, but my dad who is going to be paying the bills when he found out it wasn't going to be a

Residential environment that you lived off campus. He wouldn't pay for it. And that was the door

Slammed in my face. So I went to this Elam Place which I thought was second best at the time, but thoroughly

Doctrinally sound in so so many areas and about 80 % of the teachers were reformed with yeah and Pentecostal if you can see those two things together and They normally don't go together

No, not at all But they were on their soteriology Doctrine of Salvation very much reformed although they never explained why

But I knew that about them so I had a respect for the reformed faith, but I had no time for it

Okay Okay, so you went through? College or the

Bible College and and then then what I joined up I'd actually moved by that time to Somerset England place called charred and they had experienced what they call the charismatic

Movement Hub, it really was a hub where in this little village church that being about 20 international ministers that had come out of this small church and that was the environment where I was growing and There was a man called

Harry Greenwood. He was very well known Basically the Kenneth Hagan of England. He was referred to as that And He asked me to become his associate minister and that's what

I did the day after I left Seminary joined up with him and lived in the same house.

And so I was seeing ministry at a very on a very close -up level and in That then traveling the world with him he would give me opportunity to speak for 10 -15 minutes and then he'd either correct the mistakes or or follow on We went to Australia, New Zealand India the

United States and and yet at age 54 he died of a heart attack this was 1988 and I thought my world had just crumbled in a moment and then

I went and Became an associate pastor with another young man. I think

I was 22 23 and he was 25 and We were the two elders starting up the church in in England and very much charismatic and looking back

Extreme charismatic we were spending a lot of our time in counseling dealing with a demonic and I look back at that time as just There were things

I picked up that were good, but most of it. I just Renounce at this point So yeah, but three years of that and then came out to the

United States and started a church in Phoenix Which was definitely a word -of -faith church.

There was a church in Tucson a large church that sponsored me to come and It was a word -of -faith

Environment and many of the guest speakers they would have Came to Phoenix also people like Andrew Womack and man called

Norman Robertson who's more known on the East Coast Rick Renner, I'm sure you know his name He's very well known especially in the former

Soviet Union Latvia Ukraine Yeah, and so these were friends Andrew Womack stayed in my house many times and during that time.

I was also asked to Host the the live

TBN Trinity Broadcasting Network Program, which was two hours Praise praise the

Lord program praise the Lord program the local one in Phoenix. It covered all of Arizona And oftentimes the last guest wouldn't show up and so they'd say you've got 43 minutes preach for 40 and then we'll end with a song and you just have to be ready in those environments and but it was a 1993 to 98 and then during that time

People like Benny Hinn were coming into town at the Coliseum and I was one of the pastors there on the on the stage shook his hand and Yeah, I was as deeply involved in it as he possibly could be

Wow so During this time. Did you did you have any?

Nagging doubts like in the back of your mind. Did you think something's not right here? Something this doesn't make sense.

What or were you fully committed? I was fully committed and What was apparent was that even in those circles you had healings that seemed to be genuine and also deaths and so people that I was looking at who

Were part of our church the church had grown from basically nothing to about 300 people and there were people that I prayed for and the big shots had prayed for proclaiming them healed and I would be doing the funerals and that hit home but I was able to explain it by Going to a scripture like Deuteronomy 29 29 because things belong to the

Lord We don't know why this one wasn't healed. We'll find out on the other side. Yeah, and it just kept on But there were seeds there even though I was absolutely committed to the cause so to speak

So but but they were proclaiming these individuals to be healed. Yeah And yeah, the opposite way and basically said well,

I've done my part as the faith guy It's up to you now to put the word into practice.

And yeah looking back I I wince because I prepared people to be healed but not a family to face death

Yeah, yeah, and I'm very very much regretful of that now looking back.

Sure. Sure Well in your mind, what was the explanation? I mean, was it just Deuteronomy 29 29 or was it?

That was that there was sometimes when you think that this person because of the pain weren't able to Keep their faith at a certain level or able to receive it.

I would never say You were not healed because of a lack of faith it was more

Not able to appropriate it somehow but it meant the same thing I'd use a different language than that but looking back again

It was the most legalistic Kind of religion imaginable because God had always done his part

By his stripes you were healed. Yeah, and so if you're not healed you're not

Hooking up with the power supply Yeah, which whichever way you dice it you either are doing something wrong or not doing something, right?

Right. Yeah You're in the grave. Yeah It's it's

The devil is one in this but thank God it's not the end. We're still breathing We move on but it's it's when you look back when

I look back again, just this thanking God for deliverance from this

Legalistic religion, which is what it was But also just wincing at what

I was saying to those under my shepherding care. Yeah, sure Yeah, and it's interesting you mentioned that because I've heard many of these guys say the same thing, you know, they'll say oh

Well, we're we're not gonna say that it's if you're sick, it's because you don't have enough faith

But if you had enough faith you would be healed that's like where's the wiggle room there,

I mean you're You're using semantics It's funny the way my mind works.

You use the phrase wiggle room and my uncle was Smith Wigglesworth's driver

Really? Yeah, and so Okay, so not every you know, just not to interrupt but not everybody knows who

Smith Wigglesworth is So who was Smith I do but who's Smith? Yeah, he was of a former generation, but kind of hailed as the one of the great heroes of the faith movement so like EW Canyon from the

States But Smith Wigglesworth who was an uneducated plumber who boasted about the fact that he'd never read anything but the

Bible Yeah, and this was a man who claimed to have raised a number of people from the dead

And Just hallowed in the faith camp And so my uncle was was the driver for him and was very impressed with him

And I remember him talking of the Smith was my mother was actually in Smith Wigglesworth meetings

Way way back. My mother just passed away a few years ago But she was very young just a young girl, but she remembers

Smith Wigglesworth meetings Yeah That's amazing inspect

Wigglesworth He was known for kicking people punching people Yeah, because I would see the demon of arthritis see the demon of cancer on a person

And so the only way to dislodge said demon is is to Punch him punch him off.

I mean and in our own day more recently Todd Bentley did a lot of the same. Yep Yep Basing on the fact that Smith Wigglesworth did it and saw results supposedly.

Yeah, supposedly, right? Yeah, one of the most horrific videos that I've come across In the with the word of faith in AR kind of stuff,

I don't know if you've seen this in my seminar, but Sid Roth reenacting a

Story allegedly from Smith where he exactly threw a baby against a wall a sick baby an infant that was sick and Threw it against the wall and then kicked it after it fell to the floor.

I mean Horrific stuff. Have you heard this story before it was? Yeah before it was on Sid Roth's program.

Yeah Yeah, and again, it's one of those things that you'd say well,

I would never do that. But obviously The results speak for itself or else in my own heart

I was very suspicious that this story was true, but I'd heard it yeah, yeah, and one of the things

I point out it's it's One of the as you know, one of the charismatic mantras is that what

God does for one? Yeah do for you Yeah, and so I mean you you take that to its logical conclusion.

You see how just well, you know that You you get into the mindset of the word of faith, which

I would explain as over realized Eschatology in heaven. We will all be healed.

There'll be no one walking around in a wheelchair Right, and I believe that that blessing is a cross wrought

Blessing Jesus did die for sin sickness the curse of death every everything

Yeah, but not everything's gonna be realized here on earth, right? And so yeah, it's

It's it's tragic when The logic of that is if in fact we are healed and since we are healed

Heal people don't need to wear glasses Heal people don't need to fill in the blank

As an act of faith because I believe that I can do very strange things that could get me killed or other people killed

As I drive the car without glasses or whatever it might be you go to an inspiring event.

You think that's the way to to operate now Those in the word of faith circles.

I was I was in would would teach against that But it is the logical

Conclusion of if you really believe you're healed you'll act on it. Yeah, and Therefore you'll you'll do things that you wouldn't do if you were in unbelief as they call it right, and I can't tell you how many emails

I've received from people and people I've talked to on the phone and talked to in person and they'll say, you know, they they talk about their testimony and how they used to be in this they were sick and They would not go to see the doctor

They would not take their medicine because if you go see the doctor if you take your medicine Then what you're saying is is

I don't really believe that God is going to heal me And so if you see your doctor if you take your medicine, that's a sign of your lack of faith

Right and nothing will make you lose your miracle of healing more quickly than a lack of faith, right?

That's right Yeah, according to your faith be it unto you Yeah, right.

All right, and people get sick and people die as a result of this Yeah Many of the teachers who've actually taught that and died a victim of their own teaching

One of the things I say and I'm sure you agree with this too is that deceived people deceive people

Sometimes I people ask do you think everybody in the Word of Faith camp and the TBN Spectrum Phony and I said well, they're teaching false doctrine

But are they all Do they know their cons? Yeah, and I said, well,

I don't know every heart But I think there's people that know they're absolute charlatans

And there are others who actually believe the false teaching And they can look you in the eye in the camera and say if you'll do this you will and they actually believe that and so You know, we don't have to know the full knowledge of someone's motivation to know what they're saying is false

Whether or not, you know, God be the judge of their motive also Right. One of the things that I know you've brought out many times is is a man by the name of William Branham and he

Absolutely denied the Trinity called it a satanic doctrine Again in the circles

I was raised and he was hailed as this Great man of faith and his word of knowledge ministry.

He could tell people's addresses long before The microphone system would allow you to in the 21st century and I believe it was supernatural

But it wasn't of God But these guys were lifted up and another man who was really influential in my life based a lot of his ministry on William Branham and and and I I read

Deuteronomy and it says Should a miracle worker do something it prophesies it comes to pass it the miracle happens

But they point you to a false God. The Lord is putting you to the test. Don't fear that man.

Don't fear him So our Bibles tell us that God is testing us rather than if it came to pass it.

It's supernatural It must be of God. And so we have to test everything as your ministry. So so clearly about Doing exactly that saying test everything with Scripture and people come back to me and they say

You're not just you're no longer open to the Holy Spirit And I said, but the

Holy Spirit has said test everything. That's right And the Bereans were more noble than those in Thessalonica The Scripture says because they not only received the word with joy

But they they tested those things and Paul who was preaching and Silas there they were not upset

That they were testing those things. So yeah, we've got to put it to the scriptural test. Yeah absolutely, absolutely and Paul makes an interesting statement in 2nd

Timothy chapter 3 Verses 12 and 13. He says that people Evil men and imposters will grow from bad to worse and then he says deceiving and being deceived

Yeah, and I I think that's an interesting. Yeah Deceiving and being deceived.

I think both of those dynamics can be at work in the same. Yes, that's that's true I think that's

What I was saying they are deceiving and they are deceived themselves

Yeah, so so John, what was it? You're you're very far removed now from Those TBN days.

So what I have been officially or renounced for sure. Yes. Oh, yeah Oh boy,

I don't think we're gonna see you on TV anytime soon I'm probably the only guest you've ever had has been fired by Jan Crouch.

So What an honor, yes one Tuesday we just got a memo that she was firing all of the hosts and we never were told why and All the host but two

I think two still remain but yeah Yeah, so what happened? Well, I was busy about doing my thing growing the church thought

I had a Sound understanding of scriptures as we all do Looking back.

I realized I was woefully deficient but more than that teaching error of a high magnitude and What happened was in the year 2000?

Dr. RC Sproul came to Scottsdale not far from us here in the Phoenix area and I was excited to buy that believe it or not

Even as a pastor in the Word of Faith movement because I had a respect for him I'd actually seen his videos on the holiness of God now

I look back and and I would say to myself I saw it, but I didn't really absorb it

Yeah, if I had a I'd have been different But I was excited that he was coming but my heart sank when

I saw what he was gonna be talking about It's the year 2000 and he was gonna do a

Friday night and Saturday Session on chosen by God the doctrine of Predestination.

Hmm, and I thought I'd love to hear him but not on that subject. Haven't we got over this? Isn't this?

Past its sell -by date, you know like milk in the fridge. We've got over this And why would someone who?

Obviously has a high keen intellect of theologian Why would he be traveling from Florida to Arizona which in European terms is like going from England to Moscow Yeah, why would he be doing this on this thing?

Surely there's better things we can talk about and I wanted to hear him but not on that So yeah, there was another friend of mine who was thinking of going and he the way we would say it in England Was he chickened out?

He didn't he didn't he didn't go and I thought well, I'll not go. No, but I want to hear him I won't go Well, I'll go and I did go but I thought the moment he starts quoting all of these theologians

You know Spurgeon and Edwards and so much so on and Calvin and all of these guys

I'm just gonna leave if he can't prove it from Scripture I'm not interested

So I sat on the back row and I was about to leave one once he started with all that well, he never went to the theologians, you know,

I'll see just went to the scripture and I was sitting there listening and I Thought well, he's got a point.

There are scriptures that certainly point in that direction, but I've got my scriptures Yeah, I Can I can relate them and I was amazed that they were gonna have a question and answer session the next day

Well, that's what brought me back for the Saturday because they were promising to answer questions

I thought well, that's when the house of cards are gonna fall down and There's this doctrine he's espousing of God's great sovereignty and salvation we're just gonna with a few questions just Totally obliterate his arguments.

Well One of the questions was how do you handle John 3 16 and 2nd

Peter 3 9 and those are the first two and If you could have had a camera on on me at that moment you'd have seen a very white face because in a couple of minutes on John 3 16 and Another two or three on 2nd

Peter 3 verse 9. He was showing what those scriptures actually taught in That context looking at the exact wording and he says now this is what we read into it, but it's not there in the text yeah, he just walked us through and Rather than being excited by that.

I was actually Very upset by it because I realized I Was reading into the text and I was in trouble not him

Wow, and I left that conference very impressed but not to the point of Change, but I thought

I owe it to myself to buy everything I possibly can max my little credit card buy everything

I can on on this subject because I've taught other things and what I heard There's nothing

I can refute So I went into what I call my study cocoon No one else knew really what

I was doing. But for six to nine months just walking through not only his material but James Montgomery Boyce and James White who became a friend of mine in this process.

He released a book called the Potter's freedom, which was immensely helpful But I emerged from this

Study time believing sprawl was right. I was wrong and the way

I'd explain it was sprawl flew into town through this rock of God's sovereignty in my theological pond and Then flew out

Flew back to Florida and the ripple effects were I'm still seeing to this day

Wow Praise the Lord. Yeah Praise the Lord, so I was able to tell him that and it brought a smile to his face to know

I see had impacted my life so greatly and then you've got the challenge of taking the church with you and that's another story altogether, but a word -of -faith church to become

Less than that and then renounce that that's that's another story in itself But the actual process internally was was not something that happened

In a moment, and so it's it. I need to be reminded of that in my zealousness

To teach the truth give people time Introduce the doctrines of grace through the lips of Jesus Because people are open to Jesus rather than the theologians and that's how

I Came in myself. These are things taught by Jesus and the Apostles very clearly, right?

Yeah, the spirit blows where it wishes. Yes, or he wishes I should say the wind yeah, and my sadness is

I thought people would be thrilled when they heard these things and there's a cost involved as you know to preach and teach the truth and It's been sad that it has meant

Folk will no longer walk with me and Renounce me and say

I'll from their perspective John's lost the anointing They're language. Yeah, and I look back and say thank

God for deliverance. Yeah sincerely indeed So it was you stayed at that Same church.

It was just you slowly started to yeah I'm not sure I could

I would say slowly I'm saying that now, you know years on When I did teach it,

I taught it with not a lot of that I'll rephrase it

I I made people turn on a dime and I started with Ephesians 2 1 with the title.

What is it about dead? Do you not understand? and There was there was one

One guy and actually my secretary So the husband and the wife left that the service in the middle of the sermon shouting

John 316 And I haven't seen them again since since that time yeah, and so there was a

We won't go into all of it, but it was it was not an easy thing. And yet I was teaching on the radio and Because I was teaching these things the folk that were coming up to me

As a result of that when that we're we're hearing it had no problem with it and God was very gracious We we actually kept the church through that transition

Amazing. Oh, that's amazing That's amazing. Well, it's a that's quite quite the change.

I mean, that would be like a Roman Catholic Church going to a Yeah, yeah

And what what's sad is some of these folk that were ministers that you've named who as I mentioned

Andrew Womack stayed in my home many times they want nothing to do with me and You know, it's it's it's there's a sadness of just on a human level

Even though you understand in truth You've got to stand for the truth but you would think that they would be thrilled to look at the scripture they're quoting in context and I would say him

Not to him specific specifically, but to other friends. Hey, you just quoted that Can we look at that in its content and there's not an interest and so I look back and think the interest

I had in Sproul Articulating John 316 and 2nd Peter 3 9 and other scriptures

All I can say is God had mercy on me to even have the interest to look into those things

So you you mentioned Andrew Womack and how he stayed in your home many times. So Talk to us specifically about him and what was your

What was your evaluation of him what when you when the

Lord did open your eyes to this I'm sure you had conversations with him. What was his what was his reaction?

No, I didn't No, okay. No, I want it once I realized we'd gone in a different direction.

I was no longer inviting him And so there hasn't been a conversation

Okay so He I'm sure he knows where I stand that he used to come to Arizona fairly often a couple of times a year

He'd come to a church in Mesa and to our church in North Phoenix as it was then

But there hasn't been a conversation and I'd have I'd have loved to have been able to sit down And walk through some of those scriptures, but you asked me about him personally.

I I think he genuinely believes what he's saying Hmm. Yeah, he had

He claims that his son Was raised from the dead. Mm -hmm and his and his wife too.

Is that right? Not I've not heard about the wife. I've heard about the son. Okay the son I know he claims like a couple of different people were raised from the day that he was witnessed to do you know anything about that No, other than the story that you've heard.

No, I have not probed any further. Yeah Okay, all right, so you knew

Andrew Womack Womack Just I've buried people. He's prayed for that.

He's proclaimed as healed Really? Yeah Yeah, that's tragic

And and what's his what's his explanation? They just didn't have enough faith. Well Basically I did my part.

Yeah So, you know him who else do you know John from the word -faith crowd

I mentioned Rick Renner He'd been in my home. Haven't stayed in my home, but been in my home and many times he came and preached

Very much known as a Greek scholar except Those that are

Greek scholars knows know that he's not a Greek scholar. Mm -hmm He has two thick books of sparkling gems from the

Greek and Scholars in no Greek know that he's butchering a lot of it.

Yeah. Yeah What about Jesse Duplantis? I think I've heard you mentioned his name.

Yeah, I've sat around a table I had a meal with him with others and he wants to be the center of attention at the table as well as You know on the stage.

He's kind of the same way You would imagine him to be you know that there's everyone else is listening and He doesn't he takes a long time to get through his meal because he's talking

He's that he's that guy. So the guy you see is the guy you use you say table.

Yeah, right Yeah, if you watch him, I mean, he's all he's got all these outlandish stories and just story after story after story

And there's a lady Pastor Which is another theme all in itself

And Jesse in a service Turned to her and said the Lord just spoke to me to to give you a brand new

Lexus and a

Couple of days later she went to a Lexus dealership and he said anyone you want and He or his ministry paid for it, yeah

Yeah, he's got he's got enormous wealth enormous wealth he he lives in a home in Destrehan, Louisiana, which is kind of a suburb of New Orleans or Destrehan.

How are you say it, but it's 35 ,000 square feet. I don't know if you've seen a picture of his home, but 35 ,000 square feet up there are museums that are not that.

Yeah. Yeah. I know it's crazy You know, it's just him and Kathy there. No, they're in their 70s,

I believe and they don't it's not like they have kids at home, but I remember back it was obviously around the year 2000 or so, but his monthly budget

I think was 1 .2 million dollars and he needed just for his TV ministry That was you know more than 20 years ago

Yeah, it's just unreal. That's the break -even and it's 1 .2 million just to break -even.

Yeah Yeah, and I hear him. I've heard him brag many times about how he is Not in debt doesn't owe anybody anything swimming in cash, you know

And yet he keeps keeps bringing it in It's interesting it I tell people that all

Christian television is is a function of supply and demand Yeah Yeah, whatever the demand is that's what they're gonna supply and yes, and so when you turn on TVN or Daystar or Sunlife broadcasting or whatever one of these

Lucia broadcasting you don't you don't see John MacArthur or Steve Lawson or Vodie Balcombe or John Sampson or Justin Peters.

I Have a face for radio Yeah, it's well

There's just there's no demand, you know Not on that scale.

Anyway, if there was a demand for it, that's what you would see But there yeah, the man is for Joel Osteen and Joseph Prince and you know

Just your planets and all these just to highlight what you just said second Timothy for talks about The people having itching here is they select teachers in accordance with their own desires

Yeah, but you've got the false teacher who needs those people Also, so the false teacher needs the people and The people needs the false teacher because hey the big shots coming into town with the anointing if I give my $10 ,000 here

And into this good ground ministry. Yeah I'm gonna reap a hundredfold more more than if I gave to the lowly pastor who's faithful But brother big shot or sister satellite has come into town

And they've got the anointing so I'm saving up to give big in that offering you can imagine it.

So both hoodwinked yeah And deceived and being deceived.

Yeah in the bigger miracle you need the bigger monetary seed you'd better So yeah, so if you have cancer

Or if you have a child who has cancer You need a big miracle than you so big seed

Being on the platform at the Benny Hinn meeting. I think was another seed In that as you've been there many many times just documenting what goes on.

I Was aware the really really really sick people. I never seen there in some room there in some room somewhere because it would just so Dampen the environment to see someone who's in in the not only the wheelchair, but in the kind of movable bed

You don't see that there may be 20 of them in a backstage room Yeah, and that's that's that's the if if really any one of them over the years any

One of them I'd be really healed. It'd be national news. That's right.

That's right. Absolutely and Yeah, you're exactly right. I've been to these things and I've seen you have seen what the television cameras won't show you

That in the back there are dozens and dozens and dozens of truly sick truly handicapped

People I've seen people on stretchers. I've seen parents with Dying children cradling dying children in their arms

Desperate, you know, and it's it's it's horrific. It's absolutely horrific and They have got to have an absolutely seared conscience to not be bothered by this

And to continue doing you know, Benny had made big news a couple years ago when he supposedly repented and then

Within a very short span of time. He was back teaching the exact same thing that he had supposedly repented off You mentioned a minute ago about Sovereignty and R .C.

Sproul and talk to us a little bit about that because one of the unmistakable

Theological undercurrents in the Word of Faith movement is a palpable disdain

For the sovereignty of God. Talk to us a little bit about that the two

The two teachings of Word of Faith compared to Biblical Christianity God on the throne

Couldn't be more separated the Word of Faith doctrine is

That God made man in his image and gave him seed to sow so that he could be the master of his environment

Physical seed he can put in the ground and the seed of sowing words. Yeah, and by those words

He will have whatever he says so that God's hand is actually tied by the words of our mouth and Scripture taken out of its setting oftentimes or else even when rightly understood

There's a complete disregard to God's sovereignty so that if You would talk of death.

You've allowed death Into your life or your family's life death and life are in the power of the tongue

Yeah, and those who love it will eat the fruit thereof That's interpreted in the Word of Faith to mean if you speak death, you'll have death if you speak life, you'll have life

Yep, and I believe the scripture but it's talking about Something other than the wooden

Interpretation of if I say wow that tickled me to death I've allowed death into my life.

That's the reason why I'm dying of cancer, right? but that's the

Dime of real estate if you like that they build this skyscraper doctrine of confession of your faith

Yeah you'll have whatever you say and You'll have it in salvation and they use

Romans 10 9 if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart. God has raised from the dead.

You'll be saved and so this confession system Is a workspace program that Allows you here people say what would be the big what would be the law of that?

Why would you even want to go there? Well, if you're not doing well in life, you can change it

Yeah, it's it's it you can because of what God has given you Change your world by the words you say

There are laws that govern gravity and there are laws that govern faith and they quote

Romans 3 27 according to the law of faith. Yeah, and so if you learn the laws you'll have the results and God's hands are tied

Because of the words of your mouth Now that's that means you've had the bad life you have because you've said well,

I'm dying to see you Right. Yeah, that's that's why you're in the predicament you you're in.

Yeah, but you can change it and God has turned the electricity on it's always on if you'll just flick the right switch

You'll have the light rather than the darkness. You'll have the blessing rather than the curse Yeah, so God's sovereignty is an absolute anathema in that system.

I Believe that the Lord is our healer, but he's sovereign over If and when he does it in this world, yeah and The scripture tells us that the

Lord's in the heavens he does whatever he pleases Psalm 115 verse 3 but nowhere do we read man is on the earth.

He does all that he pleases. That's right We might have many a plan in the man's heart, but it's the

Lord's purpose that prevails so This rock of sovereignty if we'll allow it to land in our pond.

It's just a revelation of the biblical God the

God of the Bible in in Isaiah 46 Gets his will done always my purpose will stand

I'll accomplish all my good pleasure and these were the scriptures I had to wrestle with and as I look back

There are scriptures that speak of healing and of prosperity There's no doubt of it

Yeah But what we learn on page one of our systematic theology about God's sovereignty is often lost by page 37

When we're looking at another theme and what we've done with As Bible teachers rightly is to say let's not forget page one that God is still sovereign over if and when

We receive those things there won't be sickness in heaven. We're not be At the back of the meeting saying can you speak up?

We can't hear you because of our you know ear issues You know, we we will have absolute joy and bliss and I believe

Jesus has purchased that for us Yeah, so sovereignty is an anathema you would never pray if it be your will

Because that is a lack of faith and you know this inside out, but yeah in that realm

In his sovereignty he gave you authority Yeah, right, right

Absolutely. I've heard Andrew Womack many times Just really demean the doctrine of the sovereignty of God.

Yeah It is it is called it the greatest threat to truth in the body of Christ is the doctrine of God's sovereignty

That's right, and I say we are Teaching different gods then.

Yes, we are we are that you know, and I'm glad you said that John because these aren't minor

Theological differences. We're not talking about who you think wrote the book of Hebrews You know or whether you're pre -trib or mid -trib or You know, those are those are in -house theological debates.

There's some wiggle room, you know, we can have there's some room there for Differences on those kinds of issues, but the

God of the Prosperity gospel the God of the word of faith movement is not the

God of the Bible. No, right you are right Absolutely. Yeah One is

God and the other is a fake God and he's actually it the law is you can change your environment

But on the other side of it, you've got a very anemic God Who is hoping you make the right choice who is hoping you cooperate with the laws?

Otherwise his hands are tied and he's powerless. Yeah, it's it's it's not the God of the

Bible. Yeah Yeah, God decreed the cross which was the most evil event in all history

And he takes ownership and says I decreed that. Yep. I purpose that I predestined that all of these biblical words and so As as biblical

Christians we go and say well if that's the worst that has ever happened Which it is the greatest sin of humanity is is that exact event and God orchestrated all of it?

He's orchestrating every lesser event as well. That's right. Absolutely Yeah, he he is not he is not the author of evil, but yet he is sovereign over it

Yes, and and uses even that for his own Purposes and ultimately for his own glory and then but that that's just evil has a

Purpose that is good and will be seen to be good. Yeah without Without sin without evil

There would be no Manifestation that's a term that's been hijacked by the charismatic, but there would be no manifestation of the mercy of God.

Yeah, you know, so Justin you and I are wearing shirts today. And and if we get the wrong

Button in the wrong hole at the top It's gonna be wrong all the way down, right?

And if we get it wrong on sovereignty, we'll be wrong all the way down Absolutely.

It's a great analogy. Yep. You're absolutely right if you get the sovereignty of God wrong you get everything else wrong.

You're absolutely right Yeah You know and it's interesting. I'll point out. I'm sure you've heard me say this at What the faith preachers preach

Doesn't even work for them because they get sick just as regularly as any of us do they

They get older they age. I mean look at I've got a video of Andrew Womack from 2011 and He looks considerably younger than he does today

Hmm Interestingly enough there. There's no aging in heaven. So why is he aging here?

And so it it it breaks down real quickly, doesn't it? Yeah And I mentioned

Harry Greenwood and there he was age 54 dying of a heart attack preaching health

Yeah, Jan Crouch She died ironically on the last day of healing month

She had proclaimed May to be healing month and on TBN. I think this was in 2017 when she died, but she died on the last day of healing month of TBN ironically

Yeah Did you ever meet her? no, no, she didn't come to Phoenix often and yeah, even when she fired everyone she did it by decree on the phone with the manager and There wasn't even a thank you for the years of service or You'd expect that even in a secular environment, you know, thank you for all your time

We're actually going a different direction or we're letting you go No, not even that not even that Wow Well, John you've you've written a speaking of sovereignty you've written a couple of books

The first is 12 What abouts answering common objections concerning God's sovereignty in election and the other is the five solace standing together alone can?

You and I both have a deep appreciation for the sovereignty of God as you said you get that wrong get everything else wrong

So talk to us a little bit. I want I want people to be aware of your resources Yeah, the the book really what happened which was really a great kindness of the

Lord There's a man called John Hendricks who runs Monogism calm. Are you aware of him? And oh, yeah

It's an amazing theological resource. Well, he asked me in 2005 knowing what had happened and seen a few things that I'd written

To join him on his blog. It's called it was called Reformation theology calm and So I wrote a few little articles and answering

Objections, what about John 316? I mentioned that earlier and so I thought I'm gonna write about that and maybe it will be helpful to others and then what about Reprobation what about lost ones that that Allah lost at this point and So I wrote over a period of time

About ten different articles on those themes and John just said, you know you've got a book there if you'll put it all together and he encouraged me in that and It came out of my own

Cocoon and study time of hey if this sovereignty thing is true

What about this? What about this verse? How do we explain this concept?

And so I walk through in my own heart and mind The answers to those things and then started writing on it and that's what became the book on 12 what about what about this?

What about that? And then later on the five solace that there is so many great resources on that Dr.

James Montgomery Boyce. I mentioned his whatever happened to the gospel of grace is all about the five solace

RC sprawl has some great resources on it, too. But what I wanted to do was rather than it being a

Frustration I put this these these books in folks hands and some just absolutely absorbed it but there are others and said, you know,

I'm not really a reader and 300 pages a little too much for me. And so I thought how can

I condense it? So within about an hour or so we can summarize those five vital doctrines of But but based on the sure foundation of Scripture alone

But justified by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone to the glory of God alone so that's what

I set out to do and that the hardest thing was condensing it without distorting it right and one of the the great things that that happened was a number of folk in endorsed it, but I Got a letter from Dr.

RC sprawl Thanking me for the book and saying praying God's blessing on it and he says you've succinctly

Summarized the solace and he wrote that just a few months before he died and his letters on my wall.

Oh And he says thank you for the encouragement Thank you for the encouragement.

You brought to me hero and I've I was able to tell him you sir. You changed my life.

Oh Wow praise the Lord praise the Lord I Envy you in a kind of a godly sort of way.

I never got a chance to meet. Oh I've met his grandson, but yeah after his death.

So I wish I I wish I could have met him. Yeah I'll say

Yeah, very gracious I I found a way to get to him I thought if I write to Ligonier it's gonna be lost somewhere.

It may not get to him Visited their office and it was large enough to know it may not reach him so I wrote to him at the church at st.

Andrews and was able to To tell him what he'd done in my life and oh good

Wonderful wonderful All right. Well John you are the pastor at King's Church in Peoria and your church's website is what?

It's a King's Church AZ calm I also

Have a blog called effectual grace or one word effectual grace calm and I've written there

I basically rather than keep a file of papers. That would be huge I I find good articles and I and I link to them there.

It's become a resource for me If you look on the side, what about this area? I've usually got four or five articles that either

I've written or articles that I've found through the through the through the decades now of Helpful resources, so maybe that could be of help to people

Okay, fantastic. Good deal. Well, I will I will have both of those links in the description below dear one so if you're watching this look in the description below down there and you will see those links to To John's Church and to effectual grace and you can get the books there as well

Is that right? Yes solid ground Christian books to where they can get hold of them and it's a great ministry they have out there and as I say that The there's a

Spanish version for anyone who's Got Hispanic relatives or friends and hopefully it'll be a resource for them

Okay, all right, and I have two final questions for you brother One what do you say to people who?

Say, oh you you reject the Holy Spirit. You don't believe in the power of the Holy Spirit. What what do you say to that?

I Say well, I appreciate your your great insight. No, I don't

I Actually, I believe that the work of the

Holy Spirit in the life of a Christian and especially a pastor and a teacher is to take the words of Scripture and seek out the the truth of them

Rightly interpret them that is actually honoring the Holy Spirit. I give them an illustration.

I said Perhaps I've gone to New York and it's winter time and I'm writing back to my fellow elder

Doug in the church and Yet I'm halfway through and the electrical grid goes down and within moments

We're all cold Because the heating is no longer Happening that it's no longer taking place that there's heat in the hotel or whatever it is.

And so when it eventually I Get a battery -operated Computer and was able to To email somehow

I say everyone in New York is cold tonight There's a context for that That is not saying everyone is cold -hearted

Yeah, we're talking about physical heat or the lack of it and in the realm of Bible interpretation

Our job is to find out what did the text actually mean in its historical setting when

John wrote to Doug What was he? Meaning and what we're seeking to do is find out what is the meaning of the text and that is actually honoring if someone

Quotes me and says, you know, John thinks all New York people are cold -hearted people. Look. He said all

New York people are cold Right, they've misinterpreted and they've not honored me enough to read my words in context, right?

And so I'm saying I Believe what we're honoring the Holy Spirit more by seeking the truth of the text reading it in its context

So that would be my answer. Yeah great analogy. I love that. It's and I tell people as cessationists

We do not cede any ground on our pneumatology on our doctrine of the

Holy Spirit we should not cede any ground to these charismatics who Attribute things to him that he is not doing

There's another illustration that was was worked out in my life I visited Australia I believe you have to have you yeah,

I was in Sydney in the daytime and was on the Harbour Bridge and looking over at the

Sydney Opera House and It was a nice building. It was unusual, but it didn't stand out, but I came back at night

And everything else around it was dark and the floodlights now lit up this opera house

And it was stunning and I'm thinking it just four or five hours ago I saw this and was not that impressed to be honest

In the night time. I was I was stunned by it absolutely stunned and I walked away and the thought came to me

I'm not stunned by the floodlights Uh -huh. I'm stunned by what the floodlights revealed

And that is the Opera House and when the work of the Holy Spirit is is active in someone's life

They're not talking so much about the Holy Spirit like they wouldn't be talking about the floodlights.

They're talking about Jesus They're talking about the true God. They're lifting up Jesus rightly they're preaching and teaching that the true gospel and what

I look back on in my time with all of these folk we mentioned is Very very rarely if at all did

I ever hear the true Jesus proclaimed and the true gospel Proclaimed and that's the work of the

Holy Spirit That's exactly right. That is exactly right. Amen to that brother.

Amen. Was there a second question? Yeah, yeah, tell us. Okay. I meant to ask you you have

You have a wife, of course. Yes, and what's her name Linda Linda D and your children are

Yeah They're grown The the oldest is 25 youngest is 19.

Okay, so they're all out of the house, but you do have you do have Someone else in the house, right?

We do two dogs And I've really had to be assured of my manhood to name these dogs as buttercup and Daisy May Buttercup and Daisy May.

You don't want to go outside buttercup Daisy May You've really got to be assured of your manhood to do that.

There you go. That's what I'm saying Amen to that. Preach it brother. And I know you have a beloved as well.

Yeah. Yeah Yeah, I'm married to Kathy and have a little 10 pound Four -legged bundle of joy called

Mia. I think I saw her earlier in behind you. Oh, did you yeah I had a

Mia sighting. A Mia sighting. Yeah, it's funny when I travel people say yeah,

I watch your YouTube videos I love it when I see Mia My two dogs are in a room behind and I'll go to them once we're done

Okay, I apologize for the lack of attention for the last hour or so. Right, right

Hey brother, well John, it's been a joy. Thank you very much for your time and thank you for sharing it

Praise the Lord for the work that he has done in your life And that is truly the work of the

Holy Spirit what he has done in your life. Not not all the Fake signs and wonders and exploitation of poor and sick people.

That's not that's not the work of Holy Spirit What he did in your life is the work of the Holy Spirit. Amen. I'm so grateful not only for The opportunity to be with you now

Justin, but so grateful to God for bringing me out People say but if you just hang out with these guys you could have you could have you could have and all of this talking in financial terms and I'm just grateful to God with all my heart that he delivered me and I'm thanking

God every day Amen Amen. Yeah, I don't envy these people that we've been talking about when they said before sometimes people say that to me

Oh, you're you're jealous. These people have The people you criticize you're jealous of them because they have a bigger platform than you do and I'm like, no, no

No, I'm not jealous of them at all because They'll have to give an account one day.

Yeah, that's right. All right well, John, thank you, brother and Thank you for the opportunity and pray for you your ministry for for the longest time just been so grateful to God that you're out there doing what you're doing and You're a joy

Justin, thank you brother. Thank you so much All right, dear ones

Thank you very much for watching And if you live in the Phoenix area and you are looking for a good doctrinally sound church to call home

I would commend to you King's Church in Peoria You've heard me say before if you've watched me at all that having a good doctrinally sound church is a vital vital importance

Paramount importance in the life of believers so if you live down in that hot neck of the woods then

Search out King's Church in Peoria be a good church to join yourself to Okay, dear ones.

You can see that both John and I just changed clothes We just changed shirts and it's amazing how quickly we did that just a matter of like a second

We just both instantly changed shirts But no, this is actually a follow -up interview on a different day and John and I were talking and and a few other things

I'd like to ask him about and he would like to share with you John so One thing that we didn't cover haven't covered yet is some of the things

I suppose for which the charismatic movement is is more well known and that is some of the

Manifestations I call them in my seminar mangled manifestations some of the things that you can see in touch like Speaking in tongues being slain in the spirit some of these dramatic things even in some some of these churches

Jerking and shaking and that kind of stuff How much were you?

Exposed to that how much of that did you see and were you did you participate in in any of this kind of?

Activity in your days. Yeah. Well if we start with the speaking in tongues, I was

Converted in a Pentecostal church service and Looking back.

I believe it was a biblical gospel There was a call to repent and some faith. There was not a different God being proclaimed at all

But very quickly within a few months of attending that church There was a man by the name of John Lloyd I'm sure he's departed planet earth by now, but he was in his 70s at the time

And I was 14 15 at the time and he had a ministry So called of getting people filled with the

Spirit that was his ministry and so after a while three or four months in the church, he delighted in taking you aside and Helping you into that experience and Again, looking back.

I you don't see that in the New Testament on the day of Pentecost Certain brothers helping folk speak in a new language, right?

But I was really pressured looking back pressured heavily to mumble some sounds and Didn't feel the need to but he was insistent after about 20 minutes of this pressure.

Come on Speak out. It's there. It's there. Thank you. Holy Spirit news gonna rub up about whatever he was doing

I had to come up with something just to stop this ordeal. Yeah and said something he said that's it and he kind of checked the mark off and says now go home and practice that new language you have and Develop it.

And so that was my initiation into all of that quickly I meant I went from Chester down south to a place called

God in Somerset I think I mentioned that in previously and that was probably classed more as charismatic than Pentecostal just in terms of the emphasis and And whether or not we go heavily into that it's not it's not here nor there but That was my initiation and then over time.

I did see all of the above everything you said It would not be something that was promoted doctrinally that you have to shake you have to jerk but suddenly

I saw that saw people slain in the spirit with regularity and Looking back again

You don't see it in the New Testament The only time you see people fall to the ground it was

God's judgment in the Gospel of John on Romans that's right from soldiers.

That's right That that's that account in John is it

John 18 or John 19 That is Yeah 18.

That is the that is the Closest parallel as far as what it looks like being slain in the spirit that you see yes in the

New Testament that says they drew back and fell to the ground and and so But yeah, that's that's judgment right there.

That's judgment. Jesus was showing that he was in charge They were going to arrest him. There was between two hundred and a thousand troops there in that garden a cohort

Battalion of men and Jesus was making it clear. He was in charge. They're coming to arrest him.

Are you jeep? we're looking for Jesus of Nazareth I am they fell to the ground and They got up and Jesus had made it clear who was in charge.

He was only being arrested because he was allowing them to yeah And I remember hearing someone say have you been slain in the spirit?

It's a it's a terrible term He says and this was kind of a funny expression but biblically it actually makes sense

He says if you have the Apostle Peter as your pastor and you lie about what you put in the offering

You too can be slain in the spirit. Yeah That's from Acts 5 right?

I mean biblically. That's what we're talking about I mean, there's no biblical basis for that experience. And again, the question was never asked.

Where's this in the Bible? It was just assumed if the Holy Spirit is present people are gonna fall over and There were times when

I'd walk down an aisle in a service and people were falling around me I thought it was because of the manifestation of God's presence being on me

And look back and renounce the whole thing. Mm -hmm. Yeah Wow So you really thought that you thought that there was some the anointing was so strong in you that yes

People were just falling over in your presence Yeah, yeah, and it was I would seek to immediately want to give

God the glory for it, but Yeah, it was looking back. I mean again, there was never this question show me in the

Bible Is this what happened in the book of Acts? Is there any evidence of it? is there any in the epistles and we didn't go there because Certainly we thought well, we're elevating the

Holy Spirit here and he's the only one who can manifest and Faulty foundation leads to a

Fault filled building and that's what we have. Yeah, indeed And John going back to tongues.

That's something that you You began to do you kind of babbled and that kind of thing that did that continue?

Did you did you think that was a private prayer language? Did you do it in church?

Did you do it at home? Mainly at home, but it would be something I was involved in for a couple of decades to be honest a couple of times okay, yeah and Pray for an hour in tongues

Believing it was a supernatural language again if we'd called it language

They spoke in languages, right? It would might have been a big help. But because it's this indefinite word tongues

It seems to be a supernatural thing and there would be stories I'd hear

Oh, you should have been here a couple of weeks ago. Someone from Germany was in the meeting and right

Someone said something in a tongue and they said what is this? What is this? And they said it's it's

German and You're praising God in German. I want this experience and it was always in 20 years of it.

I never saw it myself But I'd hear stories of that and so Again you just thought you'd have bumped into the real thing

If the real thing was out there the number of services I went to right, right Yeah, and you're exactly right the real

Gift of tongues better said the gift of languages would be just that it would be it would be like you or me

Instantly being able to speak fluent Swahili It's a known human language, it's just not known to either one of us.

Well, I'm assuming you don't know Swahili. I don't know but Yeah, it was never this unintelligible ecstatic gibberish in fact, that's what the that was part of the

Corinthians pagan worship before they were converted is that they spoke in this ecstatic unintelligible gibberish and They were confusing that with the genuine gift of languages so Yeah, the day of Pentecost was a supernatural miracle, right?

And it was obvious to everyone something supernatural was happening. But this Modern -day gift of tongues.

I mean you don't have to be a Christian to be able to come up with that Yeah, no, you don't you don't at all a lot of non -christian religions speak in tongues as well

I mean flat -out pagans do it Hindus do it some Muslims do it

A lot of people can it's a learned behavior, in fact, I've spoken with I don't even know how many people dozens and dozens of former charismatics who told me that they used to speak in tongues

But God has delivered them out of that and they're clearly out of that. They're cessationist Now, but they still retain that ability.

Yes, isn't that interesting? Yeah Yeah, so many times people would have a prayer request and we were told either privately or together praying tongues for 30 minutes till you feel the release and everyone in the service is praying in that whatever it was and After a while, we sensed that the deed was done and we'd done what we needed to and now we can move on Can is it something you can do like I'm not gonna necessarily ask you to do it

But if you wanted to you could probably do it right now. I could do it right now Do you want to not really

Fair enough fair enough. Well, I could You know, and then

I was told by someone more advanced start off with a different syllable and different letter and you'll have a different language instead of starting with the

T start with an L and that's why you can move into divers kinds of tongues as the king has put it and different kinds of tongues and If if it's not a language on earth, it's the language of angels, which is a butchering of the text as you know

What Paul is describing Though I were to speak in the language of angels and it's all in the context of hyperbole

If you read the before and after sentences, yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Well That probably was painful for you to do but it was painful it brought back many memories

I know you feel better that now that I did it, you know, the heaviness is the oppression is lifted up Oh, yes,

I feel a freedom and anointing Yeah It's it's sad.

It's it's so sad because it's such a Decrease such

What what's the word? It's so sub New Testament Christianity what we read in the book of Acts that wasn't it.

Yeah, what I just did wasn't it, right? That's right. That's exactly right. What you just did was not it and yet that is that standard what you just did is standard that's

Standard amongst yes charismatic movement. That's what you see. Yeah, and I'm glad you did that because it just shows that it's a learned behavior

It is you don't believe in it anymore. You don't do it, but you still retain that ability It's a learned behavior.

That's all it is I'm I'd have to count decades now since I last did that. So yeah, well almost two

I'd say almost two days So it's been almost 20 years since you've done that and yet when I asked you to do it

I didn't tell you beforehand. I was gonna ask you to do that. No, you didn't that was totally totally

Spontaneous but even though it's been 20 years at least since you've done that you could still do it.

Yes So Wow The charismatic would say to see the gifts and the calling with of God or without repentance

Yeah, which is also out of context. That's right Yeah, there's a theme there yeah, there's a thing there indeed well

Thank You, John. It's It just goes to show that we cannot interpret the

Bible about what we experience Exactly. We must interpret what we experience by the

Bible and the big thing in that is Just our approach to say the book of Acts if we assume that what we're reading is normative

Then we have to come up with the acts to experience rather than saying this is an amazing event in human history that occurred

When the gospel was being proclaimed for the first time in the city where Jesus had died, yeah, and Is it something that God says is for us?

Now that's an assumption. Mm -hmm or we look at the text and say could this merely be descriptive of What we ought to believe happened in the first century when

God did amazing things and he Continued to do amazing things mainly through the Apostles Rather than through the the normal everyday average believers as you know signs and wonders were done through the

Apostles And then we go to the question our Apostles alive today not New Testament Apostles.

No, so nope Yeah, no, and so in every realm when we talk about prophecy The prophecies today even are at their best a sub

New Testament prophecy So I think everyone who is even in the charismatic sector if they're honest

Would have to admit with that. They're a cessationist of sorts. Yeah, that's right

I mean a lot of charismatic, you know, not all of them. I mean many Charismatics would say that there are still

Apostles today, but but a lot of charismatics would acknowledge Okay, yeah, there's there's no more

Apostles today like what there were in the early days of the church some charismatics would acknowledge that and Okay.

Well, if you if you acknowledge that then then congratulations, you're a cessationist Yeah, you've already seated the cessationist position.

Yes. All right Well, one of the things I wanted to bring out that I didn't last time is about where I was gonna head

I think go ahead. Yeah, I think One Of the things

I can Say is becoming from England and having the English variety of the

Word of Faith. It's a little different From the u .s. Version. I think that the headquarters is certainly here

Started by EW Canyon as you know advanced by Kenneth Hagen Copeland And England they call it

Copenhagen But There was no

Central headquarters like you would in a see in a denomination like if you're in a certain denomination you say ah ah

Headquarters in is in that city whereas in the Word of Faith, I think there was an assumed center place of Tulsa, Oklahoma With Kenneth Hagen being based at Oral Roberts and various different ministries you could say

Fort Worth, Texas With Kenneth Copeland just outside of there was Jerry Savelle and back in 1985

I was going to International Believers Conventions in England, but it was very different the kind of services they had because they just brought the

American musicians the American guy doing the announcements there was not an

English person Heard almost through the entire five days that I was there. I went to two of these

Yeah, I eventually met Jerry Savelle and said you remember me I was on row 84 and all of that just talking with him, but I enjoyed his preaching more than Copeland's but There were various different expressions of it there was a

Swedish version there was an English version and In England there was not this idea that anything these big guns say is absolutely infallible and true and There was a man called

Colin Urquhart. I'm not sure if you've ever heard that name, but he's very very well known in in English Circles he's more advanced in age now.

I think his son has taken over his ministry. It's called Kingdom Faith And he was a man who was a former

Anglican Church of England vicar He experienced the so -called baptism in the

Holy Spirit And he wrote a book called if I remember when the spirit comes it had massive influence in the professing church

In in England he then wrote books very well received called

Anything you ask was one of them God's plan for your healing The handbook on healing.

I remember I think was 1994 that came out, but he was sound in theology regarding the

Trinity regarding the cross of Christ and and Had massive influence and I remember him speaking at conferences and kind of being surprised

Because these were charismatic word -of -faith conferences, but he'd be invited and he'd bring a certain authenticity

To the conference because this is someone who is otherwise sound in the faith and so coming out from England and coming to start a church,

I remember Having the idea if I'm gonna be starting a word -of -faith Church, which is what

I did I've got a toe the line and say I believe everything that brother big shot and sister satellite says and It was actually really refreshing but now

I look back and I think that was actually a bad thing that happened I had a conversation with a pastor and I just asked him, you know

When the cameras were not on and when he was just alone and I said what what you actually believe about Kenneth Copeland's doctrine from the cross to the throne

Which was the doctrine of Jesus suffered in hell tormented by the devil

Copeland goes as far as You can go in blasphemy And all of it.

Yeah regarding who Jesus was at that moment and what he was, right? and the reaction of this pastor this word -of -faith pastor was

Oh Copeland's just a jerk in that area and I remember

Thinking wow, so you can be a word -of -faith pastor carry the word -of -faith pastor's card in your wallet so to speak.

Mm -hmm. Yeah and and reject the heretical and Blasphemous things that are coming out of his mouth.

Yeah, and what that did just and what that did was it kept me in Because I was coming from England with what

I thought was a sound theology my view on the Trinity hasn't changed the person of Christ Christology I did believe

I Understood and preached a biblical gospel. Yeah repentance and faith

It was part of the makeup of who I was and what I was proclaiming But I had a whole lot of baggage a whole boatload of baggage

But I look back and people asked you do you think you were a genuine Christian at that time and I say well You're asking me if I was to ask someone else

I'd ask, you know what if they what do they believe about the Trinity and Christ and the cross and the resurrection and But I look back and think

I was genuinely saved I believe but with this whole Word of faith mentality that said you can have all the promises of God now

You can have healing now, yeah, I didn't emphasize prosperity at least in the early stages

I did towards the end Again, Winsor what I did embrace and teach

But that statement he's just a jerk in that area. I could have become a chapter of a book sometime but it kept me in because it

When I heard that he Copeland for instance had said this in Charlotte three years ago all that in Denmark.

I think wow That's terrible. Yeah, that's absolutely blasphemous but I don't have to believe that statement to be in the word of faith and I'm saying this because it might be helpful to someone to realize the big picture is the actual doctrines rather than the person

The doctrines of the word of faith, right that's what in the end the sovereignty of God Blasted all of those out of the water.

Yeah, I never believed and taught the little gods doctrine You are little gods and Some would say well that you're not really word of faith.

Well again, there's various different expressions of it And I would say the Colin Urquhart type person would never have taught it either

But he would be definitely Part of that movement. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does.

It does. Yeah. Yeah, and sometimes people ask me Well, does a church have to have word of faith in its name to be word of faith?

No, not at all. And it's not really a denomination like, you know, Southern Baptist or Presbyterian Church of America It's not a denomination per se but you know, you're dealing with word of faith when you see these various word of faith doctrines little gods

Yeah of confessions speaking things into existence the spiritual death of Jesus I was actually ordained in the

They wouldn't call it a denomination, but it amounts to that Faith Christian Fellowship International, which was headed by Apostle Buddy Harrison who was

Kenneth Hagin's son -in -law Okay, and he died of cancer in the end

Pat Harrison his wife took over but I was as I was as involved as you can be.

Yeah Yeah, interesting that Kenneth Hagin's son -in -law Died of cancer and it just goes to show you that these word faith people get sick

Just as regularly as anybody else So T .L. Osborne wrote the book on healing and his wife

Daisy died of cancer. So I understand. Yeah Yeah, that's right. Oral Roberts died of heart disease on and on and on I mean

Jan Crouch died of stroke On the last day of healing month and that she had designated as healing month

She died on the last day of that. So yeah, just on and on Well, John one other aspect and this is something that you and I've talked about behind the scenes and I really want to bring this out because it was my experience as well though in a little bit different way

You talk about how now That God has delivered you out of word of faith that your your understanding of the gospel is much more vertically oriented as opposed to Horizontally and and I can say from my own experience, even though I was never a word of faith preacher

I mean I dabbled in it as a teenager going to see faith healers and whatnot, but I never really even understood it back then

But before my conversion, even though I was not word of faith I thought I was a Christian but I would go to these word of faith meetings

Benny Hinn, especially Kenneth Copeland and I would grieve I was

I was teaching against word of faith even at the time But I Knew it well enough by then to know to teach against it and for the most part what

I taught was right But I would go to these meetings and I would grieve but I would my grieving was primarily

Because of the or for rather I should say the people that I saw being exploited the poor people the sick people

The people at Benny Hinn crusades in the back laying on stretchers in wheelchairs hooked up to breathing machines.

I grieved for them But then after my conversion my genuine conversion

My grieving now was far more vertically oriented in that I grieved for God.

I grieve for What was being done in the name of the gospel the the reproach that was being brought upon Christ in his name and You have experienced the same thing.

Yeah, so Talk to us about that if you would Yeah, I think we would talk on two levels of the internal the the realization of just how dark my heart is and How grieving it is to to sin against this

Holy God who has given me every breath of my life And then taking it to the next level of the preaching

I Once again when I think of some of the sermon series, I would preach the laws that govern faith

I would preach that Rather than finding God in the text submitting to the sovereignty of God That was an anathema in that realm.

So yeah, if someone was to take Even the presentation of the gospel,

I think they would see a huge contrast between What we would call man -centered preaching and God -centered preaching theocentric is the theological term, but Yeah, just we've grieved

God Not is there an ache in your heart that God can fill? Yes.

Yes in a nutshell. I think that was how would how I would sum it up. It's Being being a

Reformed Christian now understanding God's sovereignty You can let fly any text of your Bible and preach it knowing that the elect will hear it

You don't have to water it down. It's right. You can just say what it says and there's a freedom to that Yes, there's a massive freedom rather than I can't say this because it will upset brother

So and so a sister so -and -so. Yeah, you can let it fly Spurgeon said Christ's sheep will not be offended by Christ's voice and So there's a freedom now in the preaching to to say if it's there in the text

I can preach it rather than look at it in a man -centered way Think how can this first be applied to me?

First of all rightly understand it rightly understand the text rightly understand the passage and and let let the

Word of God loose and You can certainly make application, but the Holy Spirit is the one who can apply it to people's lives, but let's first understand it

Yeah, rather than I think What happens in the circles I was formerly in is they they look at the text to try and find application

Yeah, rather than its meaning. Yeah, so so biblically speaking.

I think my preaching is now At least this is the aim find out for hours and hours and hours every week.

What does the text say? What does it mean? What did it mean in the first century or the 8th century

BC? Whatever text we're looking at? Yeah and Finding that then we can make application, but we were far too quick I was far too quick to to try and find a verse or a passage that we can apply to ourselves

Yes, indeed Indeed. Yeah, you see that whenever I watch these word -of -faith preachers.

That's what they do. They take a text they spiritualize it They try to draw an application that just is not there and they make it all about you

Yeah, all about you rather than This is something you and I have not talked about but it was an experience

I won't give out the name of this person, but it was a pastor and he and I went to lunch

He was the pastor of the largest church, word -of -faith church in a certain state.

Oh, it was said to me Behind closed doors at a lunch table and and I'll just keep it there

He told me he says that you know, what's your plan for growing your church? And I told him he says what do you want to hear mine?

I said, yeah, I mean he's got the evidence of Something that works. Yeah largest word -of -faith church in the state

He says I look to it two years ahead and I think Who do I want to come preach at the faith convention?

We'll have at our church Whether it's at our church. We ran the biggest auditorium in the city Who do

I want to come speak because I know this if I get certain people I'll get a massive crowd

Mmm, get a massive crowd You can then have the chance to the next service you have at your church have three or four hundred new people

Well that come from the 5 ,000 that came to the conference. Yeah, this is what I do

I Tell my secretary after I've thought these are the four people. I want to come or five people.

I want to come. I Said tell my secretary start sending a gift to that ministry that will stand out

Not the $1 ,000 checks $10 ,000 checks Yeah, and he says

I start in January send him $10 ,000 say nothing. Just send a check from my church

February $10 ,000 to these four different five different people $10 ,000 and I say nothing for eight months

Ain't nothing for nine months. Just secretary. It's that time of the month 10 % of the $10 ,000 check a $10 ,000 check every month

Yes Wow and then he says that'll get you noticed

John and he says the 12th time or the 13th time

I invite that man to come to the conference That we're holding the next year.

So this is a two -year plan What's he gonna say John? No Yeah Mmm, that's it that That makes perfect sense

That makes perfect That's how it works. That's how it works. Yep.

That's how it works because I've listened to these folks enough to know that they talk about Sowing seed into the others ministry, you know, it's basically you scratch my back.

I'll scratch your your back kind of thing Yeah, that that makes perfect sense.

Yeah, I can't recall the exact lineup, but they're men like TD Jake's Kenneth Copeland Benny him.

Yeah, and that was his strategy to grow his church, right? Wow unreal unreal there's there's no difference between that in Any worldly method of growing your business or growing your organization?

No difference. Mm -hmm So it doesn't take prayers No, no, it doesn't take prayer.

Huh? No, and their prayers are hitting the ceiling anyway, even if they do pray Well, John, thank you brother and thank you for your insights, thank you for your transparency

I really believe that this will help a lot of folks a lot of maybe former charismatic former

Word of Faith or I bet there will be people watching this who are in that movement and and if you are dear ones if you're if you're in the charismatic movement or the

Word of Faith movement and You're you're sensing something's wrong, you know, maybe you don't know exactly what it is

You can't quite put your finger on it, but you know something's wrong I hope that that this interview has helped you and help you to Put your finger on those things because there is something wrong if you're sensing that And I trust that that is the

Word of Christ that is dwelling in you and the Holy Spirit convicting you about that so leave leave

Find a good church find a church that is committed to Expository preaching that is led by a plurality of elders that practices church discipline per Matthew 18

You need a good church to nurture your soul you need good qualified pastors and elders to shepherd you and so John, thank you, brother.

Thank you for sharing with us and giving us your time. It's a privilege and delight Yeah, all right and Johnson's this is now our conclusion rather than the first installment

How can people? Find you where you're located your King's Church Yeah in Peoria, Arizona, which is one of the cities around Well in the valley of the

San Fenix, Arizona They can find us at Kings Church AZ comm Also have a couple of books written and my blog is

Effectual which is all one word E F F E C T UAL grace calm

Okay, good, and I will have those links in the description below Everyone so you can click on those and go straight to to his resources and Kings Church in Peoria, Arizona All right, so if you're in that area and you're looking for a good church

Kings Church, I highly commend John to you. He's a good guy. I'm honored to call him a friend. So, thank you again,

John Thank you, Justin. Appreciate you so much blessings to you, brother And dear ones right here at the end

I want to show you a brief clip of John preaching the gospel and this is a very different gospel

Than he used to preach notice the vertical orientation of this gospel because it is the true gospel

And those that are his people receive the true

God and the true gospel And just for a moment, I just like to lay it out for us God Father Son and Holy Spirit devised a plan in eternity past to create a world and Amongst those created he selected he elected a people to save for his glory for the glory of his grace

Others will be exposed to his justice But there will be a group saved

Redeemed out of every tribe tongue people a nation a vast number that no one can number such is the number of them

And in that plan it was decided that the father would send the son into the world

He'll be born of a virgin who would live a sinless life pleasing the father always never having to say

Sorry, never having to step on his father's toes and say oh I blew it there But living a life fully pleasing to God and then at the cross

Dying a death for the people he came to save the angel

Said to Joseph concerning the one to be born and said you shall call his name

Jesus For he shall save his people from their sins He came on a mission to do exactly that not to merely make salvation possible but to actually save the people and he

Intercedes for them here and guess what he dies for them the very next day and right now

He's interceding for us the same group at this very moment. How do

I know if I'm one of them? Have you come to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ? Is that simple?

You don't need a degree in theology in fact that could actually hinder you sometimes depends where you go to get your degree

What matters is do you receive the Sun? Do you repent and believe the true gospel?

Have you received Christ as the only covering for the nakedness you have in being exposed to a holy

God? The answer to that question will decide your eternity and if you come it's not because you force

God's hand But God in his kindness chose you to do so before the foundation of the world

If this is true, why say it? because God says Teach the word preach the word preach the word even when people may not like this message

They didn't like John 6 you read the end of it most walked away But you know the elect will hear it.

They'll say really that's the God who really is I want to know him and if that's stirring in your heart

May I plead with you to come to the Sun to come on his terms and say Oh sovereign one

You've given me life. You show me the beauty and the worth of the Sacrifice of Jesus and I make my abode there

Shield me from the father's wrath knowing it was the love of the father that sent the son to shield me from his own wrath

That ladies and gentlemen is the gospel The one who died was buried and is risen again is now seated at the place of all authority in this universe all authority in heaven and earth is his

And therefore your answer to who Jesus Christ is and what you've done with him is the greatest question of your life

I pray that you come to the Sun and enjoy The refuge and the beauty and the worth of all that he is now and forever

Let's pray Our great God, we thank you for all you've revealed we treat it with the sacred

Ness of which it is worth and we were asked that you would write the truth on our heart that we would come to you

Knowing that having done so we were chosen to do so because of your gracious heart towards us