April 11, 2016 Show with Mitch Pridgen on “An Arminian’s Journey into Sovereign Grace”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron, so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's.

Our host Chris.

Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity who are living on the planet

earth listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Monday

on this 11th day of April 2016 and I am delighted after meeting this

dear brother in Florida not long ago when I traveled down south

to be the emcee of a debate that was

being held down in Florida featuring my friend Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega

Ministries and his opponent Greg Strawbridge.

I was delighted to meet during Dr. White's travels to two different churches in

Florida where he spoke.

Our brother today who is our guest, Pastor Mitch Prigden of the Crosswalk Church

of Daytona Beach, Florida, and I have kept in touch with this dear brother and

have become more and more enthusiastic about not only him as a servant of God

shepherding a flock of God's people there in Florida, but also to get to know him

as a brother in Christ and friend and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron,

Mitch Prigden.

How are you my brother?

I'm doing better than I deserve as always.

How are you doing?

My last name throws people and you're not the only one.

My brother is Pridgen.

Pridgen.

Okay, that's all right.

Listen, I have friends that do that still to this day so.

That's all right.

Okay brother, well I will seek to do my best not to make the same mistake.

That's okay, that's all right.

And yes, I'm primarily calling you Pastor Mitch whenever I'm speaking.

That's exactly right.

And let me, on the air at least, introduce you to my friend

who is co -hosting again with me today, the Reverend Buzz Taylor.

Well hello Mitch and.

Welcome to the program.

How are you Buzz?

Nice to meet you.

Nice to talk with you too.

And today we are going to be discussing something that is very controversial in the body of Christ.

We are going to be hearing about an Arminian's journey into sovereign grace and that

former Arminian that we're talking about is our guest Mitch Pridgen, Pastor of Crosswalk Church

of Daytona Beach, Florida.

And this is something that's controversial because this is an area that

sadly still, and perhaps always will until Christ returns,

divide the body of Christ theologically.

Although all of us involved in today's program would hold to Arminian

brothers in Christ as brothers in Christ.

We though disagree with them and they disagree with us on issues that we think are

very serious and very important.

They're not trivial, they're not inconsequential or anything such as that.

But they still would not, the differences would not bar fellowship among brother in Christ.

Would you agree with that assessment Pastor Mitch?

Oh absolutely I agree with that.

I wish that I could say that the grace was in me.

Sometimes I feel like we are as Reformed believers more willing to

extend grace to those who do not agree with us than some who that do not agree with us are willing to extend to us.

I noticed that through the transition that I was willing to

show my brothers that did not hold the same position as I had moved into.

They were not willing to show me and I was willing to show them.

It was amazing.

Yeah I've experienced that too because the church where I came to Christ, the Sunday school administrator

told my sister -in -law that my family had joined a cult.

It's almost as if they say well you suddenly become one of those and I'll tell you later an interesting story in

regards to that when we were able a few years ago to purchase our existing building from another

church.

Well I'd also like you before we even get into the.

Topic at hand I'd like you to tell our listeners about Crosswalk Church in Daytona

and we'll start.

Off there.

Tell us more about that.

Okay great.

Crosswalk Church is actually a church plant.

It began in January of 2003

and the reason that that Bible study began in our home.

I had served as a co -pastor with a local church just about 10 miles north of Daytona Beach

for five years and at that time brother Chris they embraced a a

model of ministry primarily the purpose -driven model of ministry and for all

practical purposes began to abandon the preaching of the gospel.

And so I tried to remedy that for about five years and I realized that simply

was not going to go anywhere.

We began to look for a solid biblical church in the area and there were some

10 or 12 miles away from us one or two in particular and but there was nothing in our area

in the south part of Volusia County which is around Daytona Beach and so we decided that

what I decided to do is I'd bring my family together and any friends who wanted to join us on a Sunday morning and we would

begin to and that's how

Crosswalk Church actually began in 2003.

And tell our listeners something about Daytona Beach where your church is located.

Well Daytona.

Beach is an interesting area as is a lot of places in Florida.

I mean we're not unique to many other places here but this is a I

don't mean that

in the sense of homeless transit people

I'm talking come in because we have a lot of that too

but people who will simply come in and then move out come in and move out there's a constant flow of

people in and out so it has been a bit of a challenge to plant a

church in that environment and especially in regards to the transition that we went

through planting of Crosswalk Church.

And you're the home of NASCAR aren't you?

We are the home of NASCAR.

Well we have a couple things we have named to fame though we actually bill ourselves as the world's most famous beach.

If you go to the actual the main entrance to Daytona Beach it says with a large banner

over it the world's most famous beach so we we've said that for years and we

have

spending about a half a billion.

And we also are the home to bike week which is just a few weeks ago passed as

well as over the years as they tighten the restrictions but

this is a pretty active place.

Well since we.

Are talking about the doctrines of sovereign grace that are also nicknamed Calvinism

and they're also nicknamed reform theology.

They're also sometimes nicknamed the doctrines of free grace.

But unfortunately there is a heretical group that has kind of kidnapped that name

the group that denies repentance as being necessary for salvation.

In fact they would consider it damnable to teach that it is.

So unfortunately that that title of free grace although a beautiful title is

it kind of muddies the waters because other people are using it.

But if you could summarize what that is I sometimes take it for

granted that all of my listeners are either themselves thoroughly reformed in their theology or

know a lot about the subject but that's not necessarily the case.

I do have new listeners that discover the program who are not even Christian on occasion.

So if you could define in a summary form what you mean by the doctrines of grace.

Oh yeah I love the term sovereign grace.

I think even though free grace as you mentioned is a beautiful term I think the word sovereign grace is so wonderful.

I think many Christians in fact most Christians will use loosely the term of

sovereignty when they refer to God.

They're very willing to say that God

is sovereign

over a lot of

different things.

If I were to sovereign grace if I were to find reformed theology it

is that belief that God alone

sovereign with God that God is somehow restricted or limited by man's willingness

salvation.

God is a sovereign grace that

regenerates a person.

It is God's sovereign grace that actually calls a person.

It is God's sovereign grace that preserves a person.

Yeah it's ironic.

That there are people who love the Lord

who trust in the Lord and believe that things will always work out

better if God is in control of them except for the salvation of individuals.

That somehow is going to be better off left in the hands of sinners who have the world the

flesh.

And the devil tearing them the opposite direction and

leaving salvation in the hands of unregenerate people somehow who

somehow muster themselves

when that at least from my

perspective is not what the.

And what do you think are the

the greatest accusations or most prevalent or most frequently made

accusations against what we believe that really confuse the issue.

It's it's a revelation or an indication that many if not most

people who despise the doctrines that we love the doctrines of sovereign grace

they are really hating something that either does not exist at all as far as a

systematic theology or they're hating a caricature or distortion of it that

unfortunately some who claim the name of calvinist uh do adhere to and

proclaim but i would i would say it is a small minority of those within the reformed community a

tiny minority.

But if you what what is the the biggest complaint that you have experienced against these things.

Well the biggest complaint that i have experienced personally is the fact of god.

He find it to

been doing an exposition on sunday mornings

for over

9 10 and 11.

And i remember

paul is giving a defense of his teaching.

The first defense he has to there are those who accusing him that the word of god has

failed because his message is being rejected.

But secondly and which i think is what we find most often is that there many will will

complain that there is somehow injustice on god's part as chapter 9 verse 14 actually says in

roman if sovereign election is true and so in other words we determine term that in

this this terminology that's not fair.

Exactly.

Yes that's not fair.

That's the number one.

If i were to say this is the number one argument that i hear that's not fair.

And you.

Know it's interesting that when you use the language of fairness and man's understanding of

fairness i don't know how an armenian or a non -reformed christian could

think it is any fairer for there to be a requirement of faith

in christ in order to be saved.

And yet there are people millions of them who either never heard the gospel

at all over the centuries or if they were to hear it and believe in it may be

tortured and executed.

That that is somehow a fair entrance into heaven.

That litmus test of faith in christ.

Wet.

And yet on the other the other side of the sure we were here in the

united states and other places in europe and other places people freely

embrace and follow jesus christ and hear about him in

abundance.

They have perhaps even been raised in christian homes with godly parents

maybe even raised by pastors a pastor and his wife.

And and that is somehow fair that some people are going to

heaven and some going to hell without christ.

And yet the we are not clearly on the same on a level playing field globally or throughout the

centuries.

Right.

Absolutely yeah.

And uh even if you were to say that you're a universalist and that all people are going to heaven

how is that fair that the godly person who lived a life of sacrifice and

service is going to have the same reward as hitler.

Uh that that is not fair either.

So i mean it seems that all this talk about fairness uh no one really has

an argument that holds water when you're uh trying to bring in a

uh a a person going to heaven who doesn't.

To be there to begin with absolutely.

You know fairness.

That are arguing in regards to the injustice on god's part if sovereign election for example is

actually true.

Or finding fairness.

And my point when i have conversation with people on this

area is god.

God does not do something because he deems it fair.

What god does is fair.

What god does is for example people say well god does good but the good is what they

interpret good to be from their own perspective.

No.

God doesn't really do something because it is good.

God himself by his actions determines what is good.

Yeah well even as i've heard over and over again it was that very argument that i had that

led me to reform theology because paul called my bluff there in romans 9 you know.

And the answer really had me stop and think.

His answer wasn't to explain the deep things of god that we can't understand.

His answer was who are you to answer back to god which told me yes.

I rightfully came to the human conclusion that it was unfair otherwise paul would never have answered that way.

Exactly.

Well let's hear something about your personal story.

What.

What kind of a religious home if any.

Uh were you raised in.

What was the environment of religion in your home.

And how did you come to christ.

And then obviously how did you first discover and embrace the doctrines of.

Sovereign grace.

Well very early very early in my childhood there was not very much of a religious

influence.

I say very early in my probably prior to my grade

school years she

came into

our home and so um that was an ideal opportunity for my

parents to get my brother out of the house on have some

time together in that

westland pentecostal church.

The methodist was not a christian told me you know you're at a point now where

you need to make this.

Go to church up on sunday

morning and go.

Anywhere.

From the age of 14 to the age of 25 i just

had nothing to do with the church never really truly become a believer anyway as a child.

And so it was not that i turned away from the church.

I had really never turned

79 when i help as a even though at that

time i did not recognize it.

Chris it was in the greatest clearest demonstration

of sovereign grace and especially on the doctrine of irresistible grace that i mean.

I should have seen it could have been written any clearer had god taken his finger and written on the wall the

way that my my regeneration and conversion happened in that january of 1979.

I wasn't seeking god.

Well no one can do that anyway.

But i wasn't looking for him and god sovereignly broke in that

shocked not only.

Me but shocked everybody around me.

And so after this miracle of god raising you from the dead spiritually regenerating you

uh calling you to himself uh and you are a christian how

long were you an active christian as a wesleyan arminian.

Charismatic.

Oh my goodness.

From from that time of.

1979 when i was born again truly born again in 1979

until around 2000 uh even though

trek out

quite a bit.

1979 when i began to i was beginning to see very clearly

as god was now

giving

myself and

as i studied the word of god and studies

did not measure and indoctrinated how i had even been taught and

giving myself to

to expositional really began to do.

How that

happened.

So you.

Had already entered the ministry before this transformation.

Oh absolutely i've been in the.

Ministry i was when i was

born again in 1979 and in 19 it was 18

months older to go to bible college.

I'd been out of college since 1976 and now was going back in 84 as a husband and a father of a

child in 1985.

I entered bible college in 1984 and in 1985 i my first

pastor in rural georgia.

Of a small pentecostal church.

So tell us about what the lord was using to chip away at

your heart in regard to the doctrines of grace.

Uh and by the way the way that you've described your christian testimony should also make it clear to

our listeners especially those who are arminian or non -reformed.

Because i know that not all non -reformed people care to be categorized as arminians.

But in fact most probably don't.

But um you know what it is probably right.

And they also say that they prefer to uh identify as bible believing

christians.

But then of course so do people who are in cults and so do people in all kinds of

backgrounds.

So i am not one of the people that avoids labels.

Uh constantly for any season or occasion.

Uh because sometimes you need to clarify things.

But um but for those of those of our listeners who are not theologically

believing in the sovereign grace of god uh this is proof your testimony that you

believe that uh you were a christian before believing in calvinism or

reform theology.

Because the the frequent accusation that i hear which obviously

reveals a total misunderstanding is that we believe that arminians are lost until

they come to see these things.

Right and i would i would never make that accusation against anyone because of that particular theological

position that they hold.

I think there may come a time in their experience if they simply

reject and or that there

might be some warrant of questioning that.

But i would never make that type of blanket accusation because i'm fully persuaded um

even now knowing what the lord has brought me to and bringing me into that my regeneration was

genuine.

I really i know in 1979 i was genuinely generated by the by the sovereign

work of god.

That the process from that time until in the late 90s when god began to

really bring me out of that mindset theologically into the doctrines of grace

and sovereign grace um that the growth process for me.

But i it still never calls me to question nature of

my regeneration.

Uh well the claim is often made.

That by uh those who oppose what we believe that nobody would ever

believe in calvinism unless they were taught it by a calvinist or

read a calvinist book that reading the bible is never going to bring you to the doctrines of of

sovereign grace or reform theology.

Well it's first of all it's an interesting argument because most people who become a christian of any theological

background or denomination are hearing about it from a human being who is teaching them something.

So it's hardly an argument at all.

But you know very few people are discovering a bible on the ground in the woods reading it and

becoming christians.

But but uh having said that can a

person without the tutelage of a reformed person come to see that these

truths that we would call biblical truths reformed teachings calvinism

the doctrines of sovereign grace are are clearly the the teaching.

Of god.

Oh absolutely.

And the reason that i say absolutely with such confidence is that we have the greatest teacher we have the spirit of

god who lives in us who is the author of our scriptures so as we give ourselves to

have the instruction of

the truth the word of god.

I i did not have

any from reformed teachers.

In fact i'll give you an example of that.

Chris i remember homiletics class.

My my last year in bible college homiletics professor was actually

surprisingly even though he was in a

westland bursk and

theological seminary actually taken the bible and prepared for weeks.

My message for my homiletics class.

It was a graded class and i preached through

my grading sheet.

Looked at me and smiled and said you know that would preach.

I did not even really know what of course he did

because he

was.

It was only as i i look back for example my preaching notes over the years as i was

going through this transition and this journey.

Before we go to

a break i want

to tell you a humorous

story that uh some of our listeners.

May have heard me tell before.

So be patient with me if i'm repeating a story to you that you've already heard ad nauseum

infinitum but oh no not that one but anyway uh

the i worked for a radio station for 15 years uh in new jersey that primarily

had a new york city audience and uh i got a call one day from an

arminian fundamentalist baptist pastor although he would not call himself an arminian he would just say he was a

bible believing fundamentalist but he was clearly opposed to calvinism.

He called me one day and he said a orthodox jewish journalist

wants to pay for a two -hour block of time on the radio to debate me

live on whether jesus christ is truly taught

as uh being god in the new testament.

He fancies himself as a student of the new testament even though he rejects its teachings

and rejects christ as his messiah.

But he has read the new testament for many years wants to debate me on the deity of jesus christ.

So i arranged this debate that this jewish journalist paid for with his

own money this airtime.

And i was listening in utter fascination when i hear this elderly jewish man

say to his arminian baptist opponent now let me get this straight.

Your bible teaches that before the foundation of the world god shows a

certain group of people to receive eternal life and go to heaven.

And he passes by all the others which would probably be the majority of humanity.

He passes them by and they will go to hell.

And the baptist pastor says oh no no no you got that wrong.

You're talking about calvinism.

And this elderly jewish man says i'm talking about what he says calvinism.

That's what you're talking about.

He goes what's calvinism.

He goes well yeah that's what you're talking about calvinism.

But some people are chosen and some people are not.

That's not biblical christianity.

That's calvinism.

He goes hey look i don't know what for this calvinism is but i can tell you that what i am

saying is in your bible.

And i i called the radio station that i worked for and i said you gotta tell

ira to wait after the show and speak to me on the phone because i have to speak with him

immediately when this show is over because i want to tell him he is right in his understanding of the new

testament.

He's not right in his conclusion to reject it.

But he was absolutely right in the way that he was reading it.

And that was an example of somebody who had never even heard of john calvin didn't know

anything about reform theology who just took it for granted by studying it that.

That's what we believe.

Because because it is actually it is the biblical gospel.

Yes it is the biblical gospel and that's really what came home to me chris

and boss.

Is that it diligent study of the script.

I saw it was the biblical gospel before i really even knew that there were.

All these debates and arguments.

Right.

Yeah we have to go to a break right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own for our guest pastor mitch pridgin our

email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com.

That's chris arnzen at gmail .com c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail

.com.

And please give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence

if you live outside of the usa.

If it makes you feel more comfortable to remain anonymous.

Perhaps you're in disagreement with the church that you're a member of or something to that effect.

In that kind of a case we would actually prefer that you remain anonymous.

We don't want you to identify your church by name and perhaps misrepresent what

the pastor actually teaches.

Unintentionally.

Of course.

But you may remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable.

But if you can identify at least your first name city and state and country we would appreciate that.

We're going to be right back after these messages.

So don't go away.

I'm james white of.

Alphanomega ministries.

The new american standard bible is perfect for daily reading or in -depth study.

Used by pastors scholars and everyday readers the nasb is widely embraced and trusted as a literal and readable bible

translation the nasb offers clarity and readability while maintaining high accuracy to the original languages

which the nasb is known for.

The nasb is available in many editions like a topical reference bible.

Researched and prepared by biblical scholars devoted to accuracy the new topical reference bible includes contemporary

topics relevant to today's issues from compacted giant print bibles.

Find an nasb that fits your needs very affordably at nasbible .com.

Trust.

Discover and enjoy the nasb for yourself today.

Go to nasbible .com.

That's nasbible .com.

Tired of bop store christianity of doing church in a warehouse with all the.

Trappings of a rock concert.

Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship.

And how about the preaching.

Perhaps you've begun to think that in -depth biblical exposition has vanished from long island.

Well there's good news wedding river baptist church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship

experience featuring the systematic exposition of god's word and this loving congregation looks

forward to meeting you.

Call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service times 631

-929 -3512 or check out their website at wrbc

.us that's wrbc .us.

Charles headings burgeon once said give yourself unto reading.

The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own.

You need to read.

Solid ground christian books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the prince of preachers to heart.

The mission of solid ground christian books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to christians in the present and

future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001 solid ground has been committed to publish god -centered christ exalting

books for all ages.

We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com that's

solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past or

present you can unearth from solid ground.

Solid ground christian books is honored to be a weekly sponsor.

Of iron sharpens iron radio.

Welcome back.

This is chris arms and if you just tuned us in our guest today is pastor mitch pridgin of the

uh.

I just flew out of my head here the crosswalk crosswalk crosswalk church in daytona

beach florida.

I'm sorry about that.

I was okay.

I was reading a an emailed question from a listener so i got kind of thrown off track there.

And we are to talk.

We are talking about an armenian journey into sovereign grace.

Uh we are starting off with pastor mitch pridgin's own personal journey into this theology and then

we're going to be more involved in the second hour in how the church where he pastors was

transformed into a uh sovereign grace believing church.

And if you'd like to join us on the air as well our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Might as well read that question.

I was looking at uh from harrison in mechanicsburg pennsylvania.

Your guest failed to answer or or inform us whether his

church that he pastors is baptistic or presbyterian in nature.

Okay that that's that is an easy one to answer.

We are baptistic.

Amen.

And i know.

My co -host

and uh goes along very beautifully with the rest of your

teachings which are squarely biblical.

We'll have a discussion later.

Chris.

Um anyway uh going back to your your personal journey

were there specific texts that you could not run away from any

longer that really got a hold of you like a lasso from heaven and and

basically brought you to your knees and and surrender.

Yes this is true.

Like for instance in my own personal testimony um a person

a member of the church who is now with the lord actually nigel stone from england

uh when i first started to attend the church uh that i eventually got

baptized in and became a member of uh i was militating against these teachings that

i heard about called calvinism i had was sitting in a bible study and hearing about predestination.

And it was the first time i had ever heard of it because i had been raised roman catholic never heard of it there.

And in my early stages of searching for a church when i believe the lord

began to call me and draw me i was visiting arminian churches really

predominantly in fact maybe exclusively and not not purposely because i didn't know anything about the

differences.

But i was going to pentecostal charismatic churches and the church of christ congregation

that my brother was a member of and none of them were uh theologically reformed or

or none of them adhered to the doctrines of grace.

So i'm hearing this predestination for the first time i thought it was like hinduism or something i was like

what on earth are you talking about.

And uh eventually this british brother nigel stone

handed me a chapel library booklet george whitfield's letters to john leslie

on election i have read that one and i read that.

And the george whitfield had every uh

biblical defense against john leslie's

attacks of calvinism and john leslie uh

had every single argument that i could think of against calvinism and more so

that george whitfield beautifully refuted and graciously refuted through the scriptures that at my

initial reaction after reading it was this is true but this is

horrible.

And then within time i began to realize this is true but this is glorious

and wonderful and beautiful.

And it made my redemption so much more of a personal

thing between god and myself.

Whereas instead of christ uh dying on the cross for a faceless

nameless sea of humans he actually purchased my redemption specifically he

had my name in mind and paid for my sins every one of them on

the cross.

It just totally transformed my understanding of salvation.

But if you could uh what were the uh circumstances.

And perhaps bible verses that.

The lord used to drive you to your knees chris.

But you mentioned one today in ephesians chapter one.

In ephesians one where it talks about having been chosen in him before the foundation of

salvation

in romans chapter 8 verses 29 and 30 which drives you to a more.

It creates in you an insatiable hunger to research those things.

Not just the area of god's foreknowledge and predestination um but the things in between there

for instance coming to say what conversion and regeneration that he doesn't mention specifically but

you know are the parts of the are parts of teaching of the holy scripture.

And so those verses among many others were those who drove me to

the new testament even going back to because the just

the doctrines of grace are not merely just

new testament

teaching.

Each and every one of them

person life for example put me

apart from any that where i was in bible college or either seminary as an armenian was my

refusal to

cure in their salvation.

That that which christ had procured for us through his atoning work would somehow could

somehow be lost of the doctrine

of perseverance or what i like to call the preservation

of the

saint.

My salvation for example was secure eternally secure.

Take me

back amen.

Well just to give a

clarifier here about my own.

Testimony uh some people might be listening and say see it took uh

george whitfield to teach chris arnes and calvinism.

He never would have thought of that by reading the bible.

Well the fact of the matter is number one.

I didn't know who george whitfield was.

So you didn't know he was a calvinist.

I didn't i didn't even didn't even know what those terms meant.

Really i i didn't know.

It wasn't as if george whitfield would impress me uh in any way.

Because i didn't know who he was.

I didn't know who john wesley was uh.

But it was the scriptures that george whitfield was quoting and

exegeting to wesley.

That was the scriptures that i was pointed to by george whitfield's writing.

Were the things that the lord used to transform my understanding.

So i just wanted to make that clear.

It wasn't the cleverness of george whitfield writing uh in some extra biblical

fashion uh that that that uh led me to believe these things.

It was the scripture the the.

Scriptures themselves.

Well i think one of the one most encouraging things to me after my

own study and

garden that

did not learn that until later that there were others and that there were many others who

that i did not know.

Probably one of

the great experience has been reading

charles adams spurgeon.

Yes uh which just

is and

they will.

They'll be glad to quote spurgeon.

I wonder how many of them actually know what spurgeon believed.

We're here today.

Many of them would not even allow him to preach in their churches.

Yeah well that's the irony is i know i know personally fundamentalist pastors who hate calvinism

and they will have on their own websites their heroes of the faith charles spurgeon jonathan edwards and all these

people that uh obviously were clearly believers in these doctrines that we're

discussing and and cherishing and loving.

Uh we do have a listener in clinton township michigan jeff who

says i spent 14 years at a calvary chapel fellowship a charismatic church that teaches

through the bible in order.

I guess he's speaking about expository.

Uh yeah i found through those years that god is fully sovereign and

and in not only electing us but in directing our steps all through

life as well i recognize that we are responsible for our actions too.

How do you give guys.

How do you guys i'm sorry explain the two of sovereign control and human

responsibility to a lay person.

Okay.

Pastor mitch i i really to be.

Quite honest i don't think we're called to explain them.

I think very clearly.

In fact just today i was reading uh something that spurgeon had written during his ministry that

if if and i'll have to paraphrase because i don't have the quote right in front of me at this moment.

But he says if i find uh the doctrine of sovereign grace clearly

taught in the scripture i have no problem accepting that.

If i find clearly taught in the scripture the responsibility of men i find

no reason to not believe that.

And i certainly do not see them as contradictory to one another.

The reality is i don't think we're called.

There's simply some things we're not going to be able to.

Both of the human responsibility and the sovereignty of god are both taught

i'm called.

To believe them.

And of course uh there are people that usually wind up either being

arminian or hyper calvinist when they try to remove tension that god for some

reason purposely leaves in his own uh god -breathed word.

There is tension that exists throughout the scriptures between god's sovereign control and human

responsibility that we on this side of heaven will likely never understand.

Maybe not even on the other side of heaven.

I don't think it'll leave a matter when we get to the other side right.

But.

But there are obviously biblical examples of both being taught

simultaneously.

Like for instance a classic passage would be genesis 50 20

when joseph after his brothers beat him and threw him in a pit and sold him

into slavery and then wind up meeting him again as a ruler over them and they're

frightened that they're going to be tortured and executed.

Um joseph puts them at ease

by assuring them that that would not happen and he says to them as for you you meant

evil against me but god meant it for good in order to bring about

this present result to preserve many people alive.

So you have there both things going on at the same time.

People sinners meaning something for evil and then god simultaneously meaning it.

For good.

Absolutely.

So i hope that i think any time that we attempt to branch out and and to explain.

Uh i'm just reminded of god's words to joe when he begins to

um and he opens by asking him who is this that

darkens counsel without knowledge and then he begins to ask

job those amazing questions

when god suddenly shows himself to be this is god

and shows job to be who he.

Really is.

And uh we can't we can't be god amen.

And uh so the the scriptures are though uh very much

filled with examples of uh both the sovereignty of god and responsibility of man.

And those that are historically calvinist as opposed to being hyper calvinist

uh and as opposed to being arminian we are the we have the systematic theology that

really does not seek to water down.

Either of those truths.

Well that's sort of what started the whole debate historically.

You know when augustine said grant what you will and then or you know command what you will then grant

what you command and you know when you realize it's god who works and it's both the will and to do.

Of his good pleasure i mean wow i mean.

And uh we thank you very much jeff for that question and we ask of you to uh keep

uh listening and keep writing in for us if anybody else.

Jeff is an illustration of what exactly what we talk about chris and buzz as well i mean here you have.

I'm very familiar with calvary chapel.

Calvary chapel is a very strong anti

-charismatic group because they a

young man or i guess a middle -aged man who has sat under the the teaching of the word and has come to the conclusion

through the tea.

And certainly he's not being taught calvinism.

Right from calvary chapel pulpits.

And also i do also happen to know some very dear brethren in the calvary chapel

uh movement who although not calvinistic themselves uh unless they're just hiding

it uh there i know some that are not militant against it either.

Uh some as well and so i do thank god for them.

Uh.

And and it's interesting though i don't know if you know who peter jeffrey is but he is a dear brother brother

in wales who used to visit the united states quite frequently before he developed more serious

heart problems.

But he had quite a ministry uh with calvary chapel congregations and was being invited back

to many of them for some reason.

A number of them fell in love with him and his preaching and a number of those congregations did become reformed

and had to leave calvary chapel as a result which is unfortunate.

Because they claim not to be a denomination and not to have a

particular kind of confession of whether they are calvinist or arminian.

Uh but they obviously refuse to permit a lot more people.

Draw the line here.

Yeah they refuse to permit people through their berean activity to come to a conclusion on the

doctrines of sovereign grace.

So uh now you were already as you said a pastor when you

uh you were already an arminian pastor when you came to embrace these doctrines.

What was the initial reaction to the people around you.

You're not only your wife and family but your uh your congregation.

But how did they receive this.

It's very interesting.

That you you would mention my wife because my wife was born and raised as a united methodist

girl.

And so that's that's all she ever knew.

Was she an evangelical united methodist or liberal.

Well.

Her church was not an extremely liberal church it was pretty much an evangelical

methodist church.

It was um there was there was there was good there was good teaching.

But as the years went on and as the pastors aged i think that preaching became

of the gospel became less and less significant more the social aspect of it.

So she the latter years of her teenage and college years it became more of a social

gospel than really a built.

So as i begin to make this transition first with

her believe that god

was she was never never sure of

our relationship but there were those questions.

That was a bit of a process.

But again she's very committed to studying the scriptures and to listening when i preach she's

sitting on the front row taking notes all the

time.

Gradual but it was a complete and well transition with her.

And then the church was a little bit more of a struggle.

Because we had in the church we had not only those two probably would not have any idea what

armenianism was or even for that much western they would have associated wesleyan

theology being methodist and they would not say they were methodist but in regards to their theology they were wesleyan and armenian.

I didn't run in like a bull in a china shop.

As i began to

slowly

begin to realize

could not remain that's what you believe.

And i said yes this is what i believe the bible teaches.

Well i don't.

So i'm not going to compromise the truth of the god.

I appreciate that it was a costly i

go who gave

themselves to take the

things they were hearing and they would go home and they would commit themselves to studying those things and they would come back

with their questions and they would come back with either comments and saying i believe that is absolutely true and this is why i believe

it.

Some did leave.

They formed what we call the foundational family part of crosswalk church.

Today i just wanted to let you know that.

Our listener in clinton township michigan jeff has emailed us the

this charles spurgeon quote that related to the tension on god's

sovereignty and man's responsibility that god predestines and that man is responsible are two things that few can

see they are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory but they are not.

It is just the fault of our weak judgment.

Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other.

If then i find taught in one place that everything is foreordained that is true

and if and if i find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions that is

true and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can never contradict.

Can ever contradict each other these two.

That is the quote i read earlier today.

That is exactly it.

To jeff thank you for finding that these two truths i do not believe can ever be welded into

one upon any human anvil but but one they shall be in eternity.

They are two lines that are so nearly parallel that the mind that shall pursue

them farthest will never discover that they converge but they do converge and they

will meet somewhere in eternity close to the throne of god whence all truth does

spring.

That's that's beautiful way of putting it.

I don't think it could.

Be said any clearer than that.

I think that that is the quote i was reading earlier today and i.

Thank jeff very much for finding it.

Thank you jeff.

And we have to go to a uh break right now.

And if any more of you would like to join us on the air with a question whether you agree with our guest whether perhaps you

vehemently disagree with him or whether you just don't know uh send us an email to chris

arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris orange and i almost i mispronounced my own name chris arnzen you complained about

pridgin i just called myself arngin.

Chris arnzen at gmail .com.

That's c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

And we look forward to hearing from you and your questions after these messages.

So do not go away.

Thriving financial is.

Not your typical financial services provider.

As a membership organization we help christians be wise with money and live generously every day.

And for the fourth year in a row we were named one of the world's most ethical companies by the ethosphere

institute a leading international think tank dedicated to the creation advancement and sharing of best

practices in business ethics.

Contact me mike gallagher financial consultant

at 717 -254 -6433 again 717 -254 -6433 to learn more about

the thriving difference.

Faith finances and generosity that's the thriving story.

I wrote to the church at galatia for am i now seeking the approval of man or of god or am i trying to

please man.

If i were still trying to please man i would not be a servant of christ.

Hi.

I'm mark lukens pastor of providence baptist church.

We are reformed baptist church and we hold to the london baptist confession of faith of 1689.

We are in nofolk massachusetts.

We strive to reflect paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how god views what we say and what we do

than how men view these things.

That's not the best recipe for popularity but since that wasn't the apostles priority it must not be ours either.

We believe by god's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and to be

vessels of christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of christ in truth and

love.

If you live near norfolk massachusetts or plan to visit our area please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

You can call us at 508 -528 -5750 that's 508 -528

-5750 or go to our website to email us.

Listen to past sermons worship songs or watch our tv program entitled resting in grace you can find

us at providence baptist church ma .org that's providence baptist church ma .org or

even on sermonaudio .com.

Providence baptist church is delighted to sponsor iron sharpens iron radio.

Attention coin collectors and investors.

Long island galleries of wading river new york has brilliant uncirculated 19th century morgan

silver dollars for only 54 dollars per coin with free shipping and handling for a limited

time.

There's a 40 coin limit so order now while supplies last

call 888 -260 -8111 888 -260 -8111.

Visa massacar discover and american express.

Welcome.

Price is subject to change so call

now at 888 -260 -8111 888 -260 -8111.

If you prefer ordering your brilliant uncirculated 19th century morgan silver dollars by check

mail it today to long island galleries 9 susan drive wading river new york

11792.

That's long island galleries 9 susan drive wading river new york 11792.

Remember.

They're only 54 dollars per coin with free shipping and handling and a 40 coin limit.

New york state residents must add sales tax.

Long island galleries is honored to sponsor iron sharpens iron radio.

See the long island galleries display ad at iron sharpens iron radio dot com.

Welcome back.

This is chris orange and if you just tuned us in our guest today is pastor mitch pridgin of crosswalk

church in daytona beach florida.

We are discussing his journey from arminianism into the doctrines of sovereign grace

and also the transformation that subsequently occurred with his congregation where he pastors.

If you'd like to g.

If you'd like to email us our email address is chris orange and at gmail .com.

If you have a question regarding the subject whether you agree with our guests you disagree with him or you just don't know.

That's chris orange at gmail .com.

We do have a listener christian in cumberland county pennsylvania

who says that the thing that i most often hear against the doctrines of grace from its

opponents is that they make god the author of evil.

Do you have a response to that.

Uh mitch what do you say when people make that claim or that.

Accusation against us again that's a frequent objection and i think you addressed that a little earlier.

In fact i was going to say something i just didn't know whether we want to get on that subject or not at that particular time.

I i don't agree with the fact that the argument that indeed it makes god the author of sin

or that he's responsible for ten i think the illustration that you gave in genesis 50 while

ago in regard to joseph that uh god being

sovereign uses all things to accomplish his ultimate i

hold that

position and adamantly deny that position.

I believe that even that god can however use men's

fallen accomplish his

end i think

another excellent.

Text that i've never heard an adequate answer from an anti

-calvinist regarding this text who especially one that makes the accusation of

calvinism teaches that god is the author of evil.

And we who deny these calvinist teachings are free from any

uh kind of association with that notion.

Well i don't know what they do with 2nd samuel 12 where you have the

prophet nathan confronting david.

This is david after he commits adultery with basheba and

sets up the assassination of uriah the hittite to cover up the fact that he impregnated

uriah's wife.

Uh nathan says to david you are the man.

Thus says the lord god of israel this is speaking in the voice of

god himself.

Nathan says it is i who anointed you king over israel and it is i

who delivered you from the soul.

I gave you your master's house and your master's wives into your care.

And i gave you the house of israel and judah.

And if that had been too little i would have added to you many more things

like these.

Why have you despised the word of the lord by doing evil in his sight.

You have struck down you uriah the hittite with the sword have taken his wife to be

your wife and have killed him with the sword of the sons of aman.

Now therefore the sword shall never depart from your house because you have despised me and have taken

the wife of uriah the hittite to be your wife.

Thus thus says the lord behold i will raise up evil

against you from your own household.

I will even take your wives before your eyes and give them to your

companion.

And he will lie with your wives in broad daylight.

Indeed you did it secretly.

But i will do this thing before all israel and under the sun.

Then david said to nathan i have sinned against the lord.

But there you have clearly god in his sovereignty decreeing and

and ordaining that these wicked and abominable things would happen as his

chastisement against david.

And he's he's using uh evil people to bring out his purpose.

But he did not need to make neutral men.

The so -called neutral men uh evil or do evil deeds they were already evil.

In fact my friend dr james r white who i believe you're familiar with absolutely uh he has said

that uh i think he very rightly has said that any time that we see human beings

acting kindly and in a good uh neighborly way uh

respectful of the lives of other humans and so on that's just god uh restraining

the evil that exists within them.

And if he if he were to raise his finger of restraint just a little bit those same

people that we look upon as sweet and wonderful neighbors uh would be at our throats

trying to murder us uh you know that that's that's uh just the mercy of god where

he is restraining the evil on this earth.

And it would be a lot worse if he were not and if god if god chooses.

In his sovereignty to lift his finger of restraint in any situation in order to

accomplish his will and do that and has done that

as we see right here in your example in second samuel.

Now um.

So tell us about some of the experiences you had after this revelation

to your wife and congregation that this is the direction you were going.

What were you on the verge of being tossed out.

What was the uh the ongoing.

Yes how did you do it that.

That's an excellent question.

I think we had one advantage in that when at that present

time and even today we were not officially a

denominational

church.

Right.

Yeah southern babbitt church

have to do

that.

So the consequences

that

i'm

sure

about we're willing to.

Now uh let

me play devil's advocate here um.

Uh it wouldn't have been entirely wrong or wrong at all for a congregation

that has come to a unified position on

wesleyan arminianism to dismiss a man that

changes his views that uh he shared with them prior to this even though

we would view them as being theologically in error would the decision to

depose a man as long as it was done humbly and gracious graciously and in a christ -like fashion

would that be inappropriate or sinful.

Because obviously we who are reformed would not think it would be inappropriate if the reverse were to

happen.

You follow what i'm saying.

All right.

No that's not a devil's advocate i think.

In reality if you have a leadership structure that that is set up to

to function in that way i think it certainly within the perimeters of the right of the leadership.

And that

congregation did in fact

structure

allowed.

At particular time two things were working.

Number one i'm not so sure we

had a well

difficult church

a non -denominational evangelical

church.

Okay committed committed to preach love

god love people and faith.

Because i began to

god's word i

wasn't running in with a of

reforms.

You know the irony as you know fully well about

uh southern baptist congregations being.

Furious that a pastor within their denomination has become calvinist and them

wanting to get rid of him they could hardly use their own denominations history as the reason

to depose the calvinist because their denomination was founded entirely by believers in the doctrines.

Of sovereign grace.

Absolutely.

The founders group is obviously clear on that historical fact you know.

And the beautiful thing we have a uh not far from us.

Years ago we had a southern baptist reformed pastor at a very successful came

to him and call yourself a breach

these doctrines.

Very calmly.

Yeah just so.

I'm afraid the force of history is on your side.

In fact in fact exactly what he was saying.

That's what he was saying.

Do your homework read your history.

Yeah.

And a perfect book to recommend to any baptist

that you know who is trying to make the case.

That calvinism is uh anti -historical in regard to

the baptist faith and practice.

Uh they don't know their history and the perfect gift to give them would be tom nettle's

book by his grace and for his glory.

Have you read that.

Uh book.

Yes and i just get ready to suggest that they get read tom nettle's work.

Yeah that book is.

Filled with the proof that most of the men that all baptists

and many christians outside of the uh faith

um uphold as heroes that the vast majority of these people were

strongly calvinist.

I mean charles spurgeon as we've been mentioning and uh john bunyan who

although perhaps not clearly a baptist was baptistic uh he was a strong

believer in the doctrines of sovereign grace and and the the the list goes on and on and

on in this book by tom nettles.

So i strongly encourage anybody to get their their hands on it.

In fact let me give a plug to cumberland valley bible book service cv bbs

.com.

Cv for cumberland valley bbs for bible book service .com.

If you go to that website you can surely order that from them because they are one of the

finest uh warehouses of sovereign grace literature that exists

today and they are very graciously involved in keeping iron sharpens iron on the

air.

So i just strongly recommend them.

I also strongly recommend one of our sponsors solid ground christian books uh where mike adosh

runs the uh the ministry there in alabama uh their website is

solid -ground -books .com solid -ground

-books .com and uh you will find a wealth of information and

and literature there.

That i'd like.

I'd like to give a plug for michael as well.

We're this not only myself.

I have a personal friendship with.

Michael is very dear i.

I love him very much as a brother.

His ministry has been and

we keep his

eye to crosswalk

sunday morning service.

Our congregation loves him.

Uh he loves being with us because he says very few places he goes as you find such acceptance and

love among a body for him.

But we really do.

I'm going to give another book that tom nettles wrote in regards to those who oftentimes will say well i'm not

so sure to argue they want to argue against uh spurge's calvinism you need to read a book written by

tom nettles called living by revealed truth personal theology of charles haddon

spurgeon.

What an outstanding resource.

If you want to understand the theology the personal they need

to read that book living by revealed.

Truth yeah i've interviewed uh tom on that book

and it is indeed a tremendous resource as.

Everything that comes from his pen.

Yes.

So anyway pastor mitch what you're you're telling us then is that uh your church did not have a

solid enough theological position any direction for which you.

Could rebel.

Absolutely.

I mean that that's the bottom line.

I mean it's almost embarrassing to say that uh but that's no longer the case.

Well you know many times when you're training somebody.

To do something you have to untrain them and that that kind of saved you a lot of difficulty.

It really did.

The doctrines have been costly for us.

In fact i'm sitting at my desk in my office right now as i look to my left hand drawer

beside my computer i have a list of this

2003 repurposed property

back of business card crypt that's

probably about six inches high and overwhelmed.

Basically uh people naively are

saying they really want man to take more of the credit for their salvation

than the bible teaches they should ever dare claim for themselves.

They would never say that.

But that is really what the the non -reformed theological systems are

really lowering man i'm sorry lowering god to a lower

level than he uh it deserves to be placed on and truly is on

and and elevates man to a higher level than he ever can achieve to be on

or ever dream of being on.

So it's really it's really a very important issue even though we embrace our

non -reformed brothers as brothers uh.

There is a serious issue here isn't there it is.

I had a brother asked me not too long ago because he knew we'd been having discussions about and he

has been slowly but surely making that trek and journey himself reading books by rc sproul and others they've been

able to get his hands up.

If you were to give me one thing if i

would ask you to give me one thing that reformed theology since you've come into reform

theology what would you say.

And that's much bigger.

Amen.

God has begun.

Has gotten much bigger.

Well you know if you just look at your own heart and i'm my own heart i'm talking about me you know uh i've

said so many times that the the biggest uh uh miracle of my conversion is that i still

have it because you know i'm like you know the the last verse of come now found you know prone to wander lord i feel

it.

And the very fact that i'm still here you know would i dare to say that.

Uh well i if i'm going to keep in this thing i have to trust me.

I can't trust god you know when in fact it was you know god who has kept me

if i could lose my.

Salvation chris i wouldn't be a christian today.

Yeah exactly that's right.

I probably would not have been a christian 24 hours after i was so -called converted.

Yes.

And uh it's interesting.

That the there are uh christians who

despise our concepts of predestination and

unconditional election and yet agree with us on the necessity of

repentance and also agree with us on the fact that a true

christian cannot lose his or her salvation now that doesn't really make sense.

If you believe in the freedom of the will as they do libertarian free will

there's no reason that they can hold to a christianity where a man

uh cannot just become instantly after his conversion a

wicked unrepentant overtly anti -christian individual till the day they die and

and still go to heaven.

That they have.

No really they don't.

They have no grounds to hold to the concept that we do that

all true christians must and will repent because what happens to their understanding of

free will after a person is regenerative.

Free will is so important they they would have to think that god somehow

takes it away from them after they become christians.

You know you follow.

What i'm saying.

I wonder that that's the argument i often have in the exact.

Exactly the argument that i use is that the the armenian even those armenians

who who hold to the doctrine of eternal security

there's a gross inconsistency.

How does eternal security.

What what grounds.

As you said a moment ago do you.

Do you argue the security the same time right.

Unfortunately you.

Have those like charles stanley and other uh christians who teach that

uh the eternal security is really only uh an irreversible

one -way ticket to heaven and it has nothing to do with their life and therefore they

they will say that there are elect people who are truly born again

who are living like the devils like the devil unrepentantly their entire life and

going to heaven nonetheless i mean that's that's a really uh horrible

teaching and heretical one.

But but that is your only option if you believe that free will is

a true teaching in regard to unfettered libertarian free will

and that man possesses that even after their rebirth.

But what we've done is we've created the evangelical church like that position you just stated from

dr stanley which is absolutely by the way the truth.

We've created a category of

we want to call them carnal christians or whatever christians whatever you want to call them exactly that

says exactly that that they they're all people who can truly they believe who can be truly regenerate truly born

again who will never live a day of their of their lives.

And with god's word because they prayed a prayer they made a

confession of faith invitation

that

eternally

secure regardless of the way they claim to have

been saved.

That's not what.

Bible teaching.

That's right.

Yeah.

Uh we're gonna be going to our final break right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air this is your last opportunity.

Uh if you would like to ask a question of our guest pastor mitch pridgin whether you agree with him.

Whether you disagree or whether you're just not sure.

Our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris arnzen at gmail .com.

Don't go away we'll be right back with pastor mitch pridgin of crosswalk church in

daytona florida right after.

These messages linbrook baptist church on 225 earl avenue in linbrook long island

is teaching god's timeless truths in the 21st century.

Our church is far more than a sunday worship service.

It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.

It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement.

It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people and healing.

We're a diverse family of all ages enthusiastically serving our lord jesus christ in fellowship play and

together.

Hi i'm pastor bob waldeman and i invite you to come and join us here at.

Linbrook baptist church and see all that a church can be.

Call linbrook baptist at 516 -599 -9402 that's 516 -599

-9402 or visit linbrookbaptist .org that's linbrookbaptist .org.

Are you a christian.

Looking to align your faith and finances then you'll want to check out thriving financial.

We're not your typical financial services provider.

We're a not -for -profit fortune 500 organization that helps our nearly 2 .4 million members be wise

with money.

We provide guidance that reflects your values so you can protect what matters most.

We help members live generously and strengthen the communities where they live work and worship.

Learn more about the thriving story by contacting me mike gallagher financial

consultant at 717 -254 -6433

again 717 -254 -6433.

A new faith finances and

generosity that's the thriving story.

Charles heddon spurgeon once said give yourself unto reading.

The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own.

You need to read.

Solid ground christian books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the prince of preachers to heart.

The mission of solid ground christian books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to christians in the present and

future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001 solid ground has been committed to publish god -centered christ exalting

books for all ages.

We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com that's solid

-ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past or present you

can unearth from solid ground.

Solid ground christian books is honored to be a weekly sponsor.

Of iron sharpens iron radio.

Welcome back.

This is chris arnzen.

If you just tuned us in for the last 90 minutes our guest today has been pastor mitch pridgin of

crosswalk church in daytona beach florida and we are discussing his personal journey

from arminianism into the doctrines of sovereign grace and also the transformation that subsequently occurred

with the congregation he pastors.

And if you'd like to join us on the air our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

We do have a couple of listeners waiting for their questions to be asked and answered.

But before i go to them our friends at p and r publishing also known as

presbyterian and reform publishing they have asked us to promote the fact that they are having

the faithful shepherd conference may 9th through 11th 2016 at

the harvey cedars retreat center in new jersey.

It's a beautiful place.

I've been there myself right on the shore right on the jersey shore and they have as their

speakers dan doriani and david powelson both of whom have been guests on iron sharpens iron

and the theme again is the faithful shepherd.

This is not only a conference but a pastor's retreat and if you'd like more information on this

go to the alliance of confessing evangelicals that's alliance net dot o -r -g.

That's alliance net dot o -r -g and then click on events at the top

of the page and you will see a whole list of different events and in particular look up the

faithful shepherd that is a pastor's retreat in harvey cedars new jersey may 9th through

11th and once again it's alliance net dot o -r -g click

events.

I'd also like to remind you that the iron sharpens iron pastor's luncheon is going to be held

thursday april 28th at the beautiful historic and recently renovated

thorn walled mansion that is going to be absolutely free of

charge for all men in ministry leadership.

You don't necessarily have to be a pastor but we're asking that the men that attend be some in

some shape or form uh leadership even in the parachurch organization or perhaps they are

leaders in their congregation either pastors or deacons or some other position of

leadership.

Uh this again is thursday april 28th and we have as our guest speaker this year

david wood who is a thoroughly knowledgeable expert on the subject of

islam.

He debates muslims all over the world uh muslim apologists and clerics

and he is very familiar with their teachings and so on.

Uh he is uh highly recommended by dr james r white of alpha omega ministries.

And i strongly urge you that if you can make it to this luncheon especially since it's free of charge that

you email me and register as quickly as possible at chris arnson at gmail .com chris

arnson at gmail .com.

It's well worth the trip from wherever you live because each man in attendance is going to leave

with a giant heavy sack filled with books that have been donated by

christian publishers all over the united states including p and r publishing and

baker and solid ground christian books and many other

publishing houses b and h and i could go on and on uh reformation heritage

trust uh reformation trust the publishing

wing of this event.

So email us at chris arnson at gmail .com.

We're also going to have a word uh provided to the men in attendance by pennsylvania

state representative steven bloom who is a godly man a

born -again bible -believing christian who is the pennsylvania state representative.

He's been a guest uh two times on this program and the more i get to know him the

more pleased i am and delighted that that there is a man in a place of authority and government

in the state where i live that is so unwaveringly dedicated to jesus christ and his

teachings.

So he will have a word for the men in attendance as well.

Uh.

But going back to our discussion we have an anonymous listener

who says that i know of men who have become pastors in the

churches where they served uh by secretively

uh becoming elected as the pastors without informing the pulpit

search committees of what they truly believe.

Do you think this is ever appropriate for a calvinist who is looking for a

pastoral position at a church absolutely.

Not i would never under any circumstance yes

on particular

especially on the doctrine of in regards to salvation i would never

in any way suggest that anyone withhold what they truly believe because uh that's just it's just a lack

of integrity.

Right.

On their part that's not what happened at crosswalk church.

That's that.

This was not a bait and switch right.

Uh at all this was a.

That we made together.

In fact they're just really inviting a nightmare into their lives.

By doing that that's what i was thinking.

Why create break.

Why create a frankenstein.

I mean.

Just be honest.

Well don't you think that.

Don't you think uh the way that you just phrased that you said if asked don't you think that men need to

voluntarily inform.

I would even suggest that if they if they know specifically most of them will know.

If i were say for example going to a conventional southern baptist church i know what

their position is and so if i were to be sitting personally before interview

committee tell them gentlemen i

want you to realize no

and

let them know i'm

good.

Beyond that i would let them know.

Especially if i knew

that my

of at least one pastor in fact i actually know more than one now that i'm thinking about it.

Men who uh it may have been a sense of desperation they had to

provide for their families.

Uh they wanted to use their ministerial gifts their training to glorify god and they believe

they have the calling to be pastors.

But they accepted calls to arminian churches even though they

told the the pulpit search committees and whatever authorities might have been in

place.

Their elders deacons um they told them that they were calvinists.

But they were told before being hired that

you must remain silent about these things that you believe you.

We obviously want you to preach the word of god.

But when it comes to these unique peculiar specific things that fall in line

uniquely and exclusively with calvinism we want you to just keep silent about those.

And i know men who have accepted those calls to churches like that and they in many

respects were miserable.

I don't know if anything has changed but they have a over them uh about not

really preaching the whole council of god as they believe it to be.

There's like obviously there must be some kind of uh horrible things weighing upon

their consciences.

Over this.

But do you.

Certainly certainly there.

There should be some very serious things weighing heavily on their conscience because what they're doing is

compromising the biblical gospel.

I don't.

Yeah um i i taught school i'm i'm a science teacher by my former education.

I taught school and was willing to do that.

I would not have taken a larger church simply because it would have been what i was i needed to provide for me

at the expense of compromising the gospel.

I'm in a similar situation myself even now because uh uh i was

uh in a denominational church at the time i was uh coming into reform

theology so i was changing.

But and i remember many times in my frustration saying i wonder if i'm ever going to get a chance to

preach what i'm really studying from the scriptures.

And it can be rather nerve -wracking and uh very trying on a person.

And when you think about you know this could be my job and all that.

But you know um pastor mitch you you were telling about you were already in your church.

You were already the pastor.

You started coming to the realization that reform theology was indeed true theology.

Uh and you brought your church.

You said it was through the expository preaching.

Could you just kind of share with us what were some of the passages that you were preaching through that.

When you came to came to them you realized.

Okay i'm gonna have to tell this like it is.

I mean what.

What did you see in the.

Scriptures.

How did you lead your church.

Oh my goodness when you do an exposition of say.

For i referred to earlier when you do an exposition

exposition of the book of romans.

When you do an exposition i would

be

quite

honest and tell

the people this is what

comfortable for us it may not become what the scripture is saying.

And i didn't say.

This is a calvinistic view.

I did approach it from that perspective.

I clearly approach it from the honest perspective that this is what the word of god

is.

But this is contextually.

Well how long did i mean you.

You know.

Obviously you didn't.

Preach quickly through any of those books that you just mentioned.

No.

So how long would you say the transition was.

I mean you.

At some point you must have realized you were leading them away from what they had been previously taught.

Uh how long did that take.

If i you know i've never really.

Stopped to think about an amount of time until right now but if you were asking me that question i was thinking i would say from

the time that crosswalk began in 2003 i

would say probably easy easy within

the next

three local

doctrines of grace

the biblical gospel the doctrine of

sovereign grace

ready hold those positions who had been looking for a place that were faithfully preaching them

and so adding to the foundation right here and

saying that's what i want and.

You did say you lost some.

Oh yeah we lost many.

Okay.

Yeah i mean you hate to have that happen but.

That's the way it is i mean it is the

way it is.

And you love them

sometimes.

Still continue to have them here.

I love people.

That's my heart my story.

In sound teaching i think they run hand in hand with each other but i would not

compromise sound teaching for the sake of preserving.

A person in in our fellowship.

Now what if the person who is being interviewed for a call to a

church that is predominantly decidedly armenian or just armenian

of ignorance uh but with a leadership that understands that the person they are

interviewing is reformed and putting that restriction on them that i mentioned earlier.

What if that person being interviewed has in his mind that i want to

uh be used of god to bring transformation to this congregation.

And if i win them over just by being a faithful preacher and using some

restraint in the areas of the doctrines of grace uh god willing eventually

they will allow me to preach.

The full counsel from the pulpit.

And what would that.

That's a that's a thin line.

Um i think if a person is going to do that he must prepare himself for

potential disappointment.

And probably completely

because and put some stuff in storage and leave it packed up.

Not saying that god can't sovereignly work on a congregation.

And because there have there have been you know as well as i do chris there are examples of congregations that have

survived that and have i think there are fewer than they are ones that

were successful.

And that's usually when the lord is teaching the past or something about tribulation.

Yeah absolutely.

Regardless of the eschatological view i believe that's true.

Uh i really want you to give advice uh to uh perhaps

the the young man in the seminary who has a call he believes from

god to be a pastor or for the struggling pastor that is already in a

pastoral office in regard to facing

the opposition of those who disagree with these precious truths

especially if they wind up providentially like you did being in a congregation

that uh did not believe these truths initially and

the pastors themselves were you know like mind were like -minded with their congregation

and being ignorant of these truths.

But then the pastor perhaps is a a one of many in that group that

discovers these truths.

Some advice some counsel on how to appropriately handle this this

conflict that they must prepare.

For well i think it's it's relatively semi

-first summed

up and genuinely

people know

that

their pastors love

them.

Uh pastor mitch.

Pastor mitch can you hear me.

Yeah we lost pastor mitch and.

I had a feeling that was going to happen.

I don't know if his cell phone battery was dying but we're going to be going to a station break and hopefully

pastor mitch will be able to call us back and be reconnected with us.

We're going to go through one last station break so please stay tuned with us and god

willing we will be back after these messages from our sponsors.

So don't go away.

I'm james white of alpha omega ministries.

The new american standard bible is perfect for daily reading or in -depth study.

Used by pastors scholars and everyday readers the nasb is widely embraced and trusted as a literal and readable bible

translation.

The nasb offers clarity and readability while maintaining high accuracy to the original languages which the nasb is known

for.

The nasb is available in many editions like a topical reference bible.

Researched and prepared by biblical scholars devoted to accuracy the new topical reference bible includes contemporary

topics relevant to today's issues from compacted giant print bibles.

Find an nasb that fits your needs very affordably at nasbible .com.

Trust discover and enjoy the nasb for go to nasbible .com.

That's nasbible .com.

Tired of box store christianity.

Of doing church in.

A warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert.

Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship.

And how about the preaching.

Perhaps you've begun to think that in -depth biblical exposition has vanished from long island.

Well there's good news wading river baptist church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship

experience featuring the systematic exposition of god's word and this loving congregation looks

forward to meeting you.

Call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service times 631

-929 -3512 or check out their website at wrbc

.us that's wrbc .us.

Welcome back.

I'm hoping that we have mitch pridgin on the other.

Line uh mitch are you there.

Yeah actually.

I'm sorry chris my phone died so i had to change my.

Receiver.

Yes i had a feeling.

That's what it was it sounded like you were going down with the titanic.

Yes right there.

Got in my head where where was that.

Because i think i was saying something i.

Really wanted to you were saying that you you wanted to impress upon the pastor the perhaps the calvinist

pastor in the arminian church to that the that he loves those people that he loves.

That flock the love they loves his people and he genuinely cares about their spiritual

life their spiritual growth and uh

that.

And then gently people

know their

will that is given to them in love to not

they're just simply they're not going to

accept the truth of the biblical.

But i think to love the people and to remain faithful but yet

gentle you know there there are

those circumstances.

Where you have the congregation that uh

is predominantly made up of those who are unfamiliar with or not

believing in the doctrines of sovereign grace.

Their pastor discovers it embraces it and they love this man

and trust this man so much that they are willing to have him remain as their under shepherd

and they are willing to uh hang in for the long haul if you will and just be

uh re -educated as it were on the teachings of the bible.

How do you uh how do you have the the pastor in this position convey to

the congregation some things that may irritate or surprise them or that

they may seem that may seem to them as contradictions to

the proclamation the of the gospel indiscriminately to all men uh

and the responsibility of men to repent and believe and respond to the gospel call.

Like for instance the most typical thing that that an armenian or a non

-calvinist or a non -believer uh in the doctrines of grace he

will be confronted with the fact that that reform churches.

For the most part there are some that do but for the most part they do not have invitations to come

forward to the pulpit.

They do not have what is become known as altar calls.

And you have christians who say who are wrongly think now these men do not

care about the souls of those listening they are not taking advantage of an ordained

moment to call upon them to receive christ.

Now at this very moment they're squandering these opportunities.

And of course there are those who may rightly not have so -called altar

calls for theological reasons but there are also liberals and so on don't have them because they don't

even believe that men need to repent.

But if you could respond to that that that uh conflict that seems to be there.

Well i think i think the conflict could.

Be resolved faithful across

all

church

self

and

our

elders.

Our presentation of the

altar.

Problem with that but i have seen over the years as the fact that we transitioned from that many years

ago that i don't have to say anything my people will tell others but we

preach we we call people to repentance and faith every time we gather through the

preaching of the word yeah people people.

Erroneously uh equate a call to repent and

believe upon christ with that altar call that they're inseparable to them.

They they they think that's obviously naively or

ignorantly think that this has always been the practice of christ's church

and it's nowhere to be found in the bible and it's nowhere to be found in the pages of history until finney in the 19th

century.

Yeah absolutely.

That is true.

I mean you think about spurgeon again.

We've referred to him several times during conversation today but never had an invitational system in in

fact the architecture i understand prohibited such a thing.

That would have been yet every every week following the sabbath day service the sunday service his

office was lined with people who during the messages to

repentance and faith of course he was meeting with him.

And yet what did he do.

Through the faithful preaching of the gospel he called men.

Well uh in the four minutes that we have left i really want to make.

Sure that you leave our listeners with what you most want etched

in their hearts and minds before.

They leave the program today.

Well that's that's kind of hard to sum up everything in just a couple of

minutes but i just really

and uh they're they're

wondering what gospel

in the biblical gospel and.

Preaching and uh do you have any uh

thing that you'd like to invite our listeners to other than obviously your your weekly worship

services there in daytona beach but uh anything coming up that.

You'd like them to be aware of.

Um there's some activities coming on for the summer and we'll we have our normal activities a vacation bible school and then

we'll probably do something in the fall.

In regards to having another guest in here but i would like to let your listeners know that we are live on the

internet every.

We have a local radio program on wjlu wjlu .org and they can

listen to at eight o 'clock on sunday morning eastern eastern time.

I my radio program is on we're actually a preaching uh service uh 8 a .m in the morning

eastern time at 6 p .m on wjlu .org.

Uh we also live stream every single one of our services um not video but

just audio.

So on sunday 10 a .m 7 p .m

daytonabeach .org and listen to us live.

And uh i really uh would love for you to.

Just give a final word uh to those men who are in the pastorate who have just

discovered the.

Doctrines of grace before we leave the program.

Well bless them.

I want to tremendously bless them and pray that god would get into these

truths.

They can share these with the press.

I want to.

Thank you so much for being on the program today pastor mitch.

I look forward to you uh returning often as a guest.

And i look forward to also having the opportunity to share fellowship with you if god enables me to get down to

florida again.

Or for you to come up here to pennsylvania.

Uh i would love for that to occur.

And the banner of truth conferences and things like that are held up here so hopefully you will

have the opportunity at some point to come up here.

Uh i do want to remind our listeners one more time about the faithful shepherd conference that is

being held in harvey cedars new jersey.

Our friends at p and r publishing also known as presbyterian and reform publishing want me to remind you of that

uh may 9th through 11th with dan doriani and david powelson as the speakers.

That's the pastor's retreat may 9th through 11th in harvey cedars new jersey on the theme of the faithful shepherd.

Go to alliance net .org alliance .org for more details.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that jesus christ is a far far greater savior

than you are a sinner.

We look forward to hearing from all of you and your own questions for our guests tomorrow on iron sharpens iron radio.