F4F | Remnant Radio Rebuttal

Fighting for the Faith

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Welcome to another installment of Fighting for the Faith. My name is Chris Roseborough. I am your servant in Jesus Christ.

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This is the channel that compares what people are saying in the name of God to the Word of God. So a week ago, the

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Remnant Radio guys, they decided that they were gonna take issue with what I was saying regarding the

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Prophetic Standards Statement, especially as it relates to the idea that they reject the notion that God speaks in inherently through prophets today, and the implications that that has regarding orthodoxy and the testing of real prophecies, as well as the

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God that they're actually believing in. And so they put out a response video, and today will be a rebuttal to their response.

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Now, the guys at Remnant Radio, they are welcome to have a rebuttal to my rebuttal if they want to.

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They've expressed that they will not go this route, but they're free to if they'd like to down the road.

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One of the hosts of Remnant Radio, Joshua Lewis, he has put out his email address and said that he'd be willing to talk with me privately, and I may reach out to him sometime shortly after this video premieres for the purpose of engaging in a conversation privately with them about the errors and the very dangerous practices that they're endorsing and promoting.

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That's the best way that I can put it. So let's talk about what we're gonna do here, and before we get to that,

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I've got extensive notes, because this is one of the more complicated episodes of Fighting for the

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Faith that we've put out. There was some buzz when the

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Remnant Radio guys put out their video, and people were saying, did you reach out to Chris Roseborough privately?

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And no, they didn't, nor did they need to. I want to make something clear.

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When somebody teaches something publicly, me or anyone else taking issue with it, offering a critique or a tweak or a criticism in the public is fair game.

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That's how things are done. So if I had sinned against those guys privately, like, you know,

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I went to a friend of mine, and I said, you know, that Michael Roundtree guy, he's a gunky head.

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You know, that's a terrible thing to do. And it got word back to Michael Roundtree that I had done that?

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Well, Michael Roundtree, according to Matthew 18, is to approach me privately regarding that and say, you know, you've sinned against me by doing that, and it's my job to repent if he did.

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So when it comes to public teaching, what people preach and teach in the public is fair game for a public criticism.

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So these guys didn't do anything wrong at all. In fact, I applaud them for their tenacity, for their rigor, for reaching out and trying to seek clarification on what it is that the

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AALC, which is, you know, the association that is my ordaining body.

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I'm a pastor, an ordained minister within the American Association of Lutheran Churches. So everything they did was spot -on.

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They erred in no way in regard to how they handled these things and the way they sought answers to questions.

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I will say that they erred in their conclusions, but that's for our rebuttal today.

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So let's whirl up the desktop, and what we're going to do here is, I had to create a roadmap, because this is one of the more complicated episodes.

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All of that being said, let me pull up my keynote application, and here's our roadmap for today.

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We're going to answer the question right off the bat, because the main charge is that I am somehow judging with unjust weights, that I've got a standard for the

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AALC that I'm okay with, but not with the charismatic movement. So we're going to answer this question.

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Does the AALC believe that God speaks errantly, or that prophets can give false prophecies and not be false prophets?

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That's really the nubbins of the issue that's at, you know, at large here. So, and then we're going to note that I am far from the only person claiming that the prophetic standard statement, as it is written, that it is heretical.

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We'll point that out. And so, in order to kind of make the point then, I'm going to fix what is wrong with the prophetic standards document using the

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AALC's own statement regarding the Holy Spirit. And when you see how I do that, then you're going to see where the real error is in the prophetic standards statement.

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I'm also going to spend a little bit of time going, I'm going to identify the core error of Remnant Radio as it relates to fallible transmission of prophecies.

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We're going to look at Grudem's definition that they gave. I'm going to also point out that their comparisons are spurious as it relates to the

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Bible and modern prophecy. I'll explain that when we get there. I'll also discuss their failure to address the sin of blasphemy properly.

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And on this particular one, maybe I wasn't clear, so I'll be clearer so that we recognize how

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Exodus 20 verse 7 comes into play. And then we'll discuss their false narrative regarding Deuteronomy 18.

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And as an aside, I'll prove that Walter Martin taught that Deuteronomy 18 applies to today's alleged prophets.

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That's kind of a bonus. Since the folks at Remnant Radio are doing a book read of the Kingdom of the

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Colts, we'll take a look at something that Walter Martin wrote in the Kingdom of the Colts. And a little bit of a note, I had one conversation with Walter Martin decades ago.

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And when I came out of the latter rain movement, let's just say that my theology was really, really in tatters.

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And it was shortly after that that I began doing ministry work, reaching out to and doing countercult work, reaching out to the

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Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormons. And Walter Martin's ministry had a profound impact on my theological formation.

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I cut my teeth in the trenches doing countercult work as a result of Walter Martin. In fact, it was

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Walter Martin who suggested to me personally that I study apologetics under Dr.

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Rod Rosenblatt at Christ College Irvine. And Dr. Rod Rosenblatt, who is one of my main mentors, he was very, very close friends with Walter Martin and worked with him on many different apologetic projects.

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And then another set of my theological and apologetic mentors, Bob and Gretchen Pasantino, who

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I was very close friends with, they played a profound role in my theological and apologetic formation as well.

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And they were very, very close friends and worked very tightly with Walter Martin.

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So I know a lot about what Walter Martin's position, especially regarding Deuteronomy 18 was, and we'll talk about that.

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But also we'll make a quick word about snark and humor and the warping of faces of those who warp and twist

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God's word and blaspheme, as well as at the end of this, there'll be a long discussion with Justin Peters about the prophetic standards document.

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He was willing to do an interview with me to discuss it. So that's where we're going to go today.

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So long episode. You might want to take this in chunks. That's the best way

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I can put it. Long episode, but let's talk about our first thing on our roadmap today.

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Does the AALC believe that God speaks errantly or that prophets can give false prophecies and not be false prophets?

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The answer is no. And what the Remnant Radio guys did, they engaged in something called conflation, conflation.

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So let's take a look at what the AALC says regarding the gifts of the spirit.

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Now it's important to note something here. They quoted Dr. Jordan Cooper about the fact that Lutherans, confessional

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Lutherans are not strict cessationists and Dr. Cooper's straight up right. Absolutely.

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Lutherans are not strict cessationists. So what we mean by that is, is that, yeah, we believe that the gifts, certain gifts have ceased, the apostolic sign gifts for sure.

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There are no prophets today. That doesn't mean that God cannot speak to people.

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He absolutely can. But the thing is, is that when God, when there's an alleged prophecy or a word from God, it has to be tested.

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And because scripture says that it has to be tested, this gets into a theological category that we talk about what's called the norming norm versus norma normata, the normed norm.

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So when we talk about authority, the idea then is, is that everything has to be judged according to scripture and cannot contradict it and must fall in line with the standards and the tests given in scripture.

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And any, anytime God speaks today, it's going to fit within a particular parameter.

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And because it has to be normed by the word of God, you do not a priori assume that it is the word of God or that the person speaking it is accurate.

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So it has to be tested. That's kind of the point. So when we Lutherans talk about our confessions, so the

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Lutherans, if you want to know what Lutherans believe, it's not a tiny little pamphlet of a bullet points of, you know, we believe in the

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Trinity, we believe in salvation by grace through faith. No, when you want to talk about what Lutherans believe, teach and confess, there's an entire book and it's called the

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Book of Concord. And we recognize that the Book of Concord has authority, not because it's infallible or the word of God, but because it says the same thing as God's word.

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In other words, if you were to Google a certain, you know, like go to the Ligonier website, the reformed guys understand this as well.

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Look at the Ligonier website. On the Ligonier website, do a search for norma normans, norma normata.

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And you'll see a wonderful article written by R .C. Sproul talking about these distinctions.

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The idea then is that the only rule that rules is scripture.

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It is the norming norm, norma normata, no, sorry, norma normans and anything else that comes along, including confessions of faith or statements or even prophetic words, they have to be judged and normed by scripture.

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So now, when it comes to prophecy, this doesn't exactly fit neatly in this category, but this is the gist of what's going on in the statement by the

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AALC. So you'll note, here's what the AALC says. We affirm that the scriptures are the only inerrant and infallible word of God and the only rule and norm, there's norma normans, by which teachers and teachings are judged.

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And it's in this context then of that overarching statement, you know, for paragraph two, that there is a mention then of prophecy.

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So watch what it says then. All scripture is breathed by God, it references 2

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Timothy 3 .16. So it therefore stands as judge of all contemporary movements and theologies,

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God's word judges experience and not vice versa, because the

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Bible encourages us to understand spiritual gifts, and it does, and to desire them, and it does.

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We reject any kind of dispensationalism, which says that the gifts of the spirit are not for today.

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In fact, I absolutely believe that God gives the gift of teaching, of discernment, of administration, of helps, of generosity.

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And here's the thing, because we're not strict cessationists, we recognize that there may be times when

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God has spoken, even though there are no prophets in the church today. So two particular ones that are always come up as far as like stuff in the past.

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One, you can find in the Apology of the Augsburg Confession, Article 27, is a vision, a dream that Antony had, which led to him abandoning his belief that he was somehow saved by his rigorous life.

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That's one that's mentioned, and it's not censored as like, oh, this can't be from God. Another one that often comes up in Lutheran circles is one of the statements that John Huss gave.

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Now, the context in which he gave this is disputed. In fact, I think the

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Ligonier website also does a good treatment of the topic. But before his death, Huss basically said, today you burn a goose.

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He was burned at the stake, and you'll know Huss was one of these guys who taught salvation by grace through faith apart from works.

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Issue was, well, it was a hundred years before the printing press. And so, Rome put him to death.

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And so, he says, today you burn a goose, but in a hundred years, a swan will arise which will prove unable to boil or roast.

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And many Lutherans believe that this is a prophecy regarding Martin Luther. And so, here's the thing.

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It doesn't contradict the Word of God. It doesn't add to the Word of God. And always and again, the test regarding whether a prophecy is true or false is whether or not it's from God or from another source.

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And we'll get into that. So, we put it out there as a potential thing. Now, Dr.

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Cooper also noted the fact that in the Selk churches in Germany, there's been a phenomenon of, well,

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Muslims showing up at Selk churches claiming that they had a vision of Jesus sending them to a particular church to hear the message.

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And after hearing the message, they've been brought to penitent faith in Christ, baptized, taught the

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Christian faith and are healthy Christians now in these churches.

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And so, I will note this, that we covered this phenomenon on Fighting for the Faith, the podcast back on July 24th, 2012.

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And I interviewed one of my family's close friends, Uwe Simonetto, who was an

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AP reporter who covered the Muslim conversions and dreams story and covered it.

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So, I put it out there. I can't disprove it based on any biblical standard.

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So, it stands as something that could potentially be real. So, and we'll put a link to this particular episode of Fighting for the

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Faith down below in the description. Okay. Coming back then, coming back then to the

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American Association of Lutheran Churches as a statement. Okay. So, we reject any kind of dispensationalism that says the gifts of the

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Spirit are not for today. And I would also note one more thing. The Remnant Radio guys know for a fact that I believe that God heals because I have seen two now instances of miraculous healings of people whom

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I have prayed for. And one of them of a very serious and fatal disease, and there's no trace of it now.

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And this can be medically verified. I know the name of the person, have access to the records medically, if I would like to document it for other people.

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So, I'm one of these people who absolutely believe that God can heal. Any gift, anything that God has done in the past,

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He's capable of doing. The question is, when we're dealing with direct revelation from God, how do we deal with it?

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And that's the gist of this statement. So, while we have seen abuse of the gifts, we would correct it not with the rejection, but the proper reception and stewardship.

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And note the words, proper reception and stewardship. And that's going to require a biblical standard.

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We heed the balanced admonition of St. Paul, do not quench the Spirit, do not despise prophetic utterances, examine everything, hold fast to that which is good.

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Right, exactly. Prophecies have to be examined and they have to be tested.

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And the Bible gives us a clear, extremely clear standard by which all prophecies, alleged prophecies are to be judged.

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So, then it goes on, the only prophecy that can claim inerrancy, again, coming back to the fact that only scripture is norma normans, that they claim that inerrancy is the...

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The only prophecy that can claim inerrancy is the prophecy of scripture itself.

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The gift of prophecy as rightly received, note the note, as rightly received today, neither supersedes nor contradicts the

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Word of God. It uplifts it. And so, with that, I would remind the

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Remnant radio guys that scripture is very clear what the standard is for testing prophecy.

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So, we did this with Troy Black earlier in the week, and I'll walk through the argument again.

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When it comes to understanding scripture, context, context, context, that's always my go -to first rule.

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Second, and one of the ones that comes up often, is scripture interprets scripture, and clear passages always govern unclear.

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So, in 1 Corinthians 14, let two or three prophets speak, let others weigh what is said.

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The weighing here is clearly a testing that is going on, but it doesn't give us the standard by which we're going to test.

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And people will say, well, it's got to be against the Bible. I would agree, absolutely needs to be against the

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Bible, but we have more, we have more. We just read in the AALC's document, do not quench the

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Spirit, do not despise prophecies, test everything, hold fast to what is good, abstain from every evil.

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That's the completion of this thought, by the way. Abstain from every evil is invoking the fact that we are to not have anything to do with, well, sin, sin as it relates to prophecies.

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Test everything, hold fast to what is good, but still it doesn't tell us what the test is.

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Thankfully, we have a New Testament text that gives us what the test is.

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And so, here's the test. John 4, 1, beloved, do not believe every spirit, test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

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The biblical New Testament standard for whether or not a prophecy is a true prophecy or a false prophecy, and whether the messenger is a true prophet or a false prophet, because you're going to note, you failed this test, you are in the category of a false prophet, because that's what you're testing for.

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That's a clear text, is whether or not the prophecy is from God. That's the issue.

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So, we have to ascertain and weigh and test whether or not the alleged prophecy is from God.

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And there are biblical standards given for that. So, with that, what

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I'm going to do is I'm going to, this is the original statement that I take issue with, and you'll see pretty shortly here, others are taking issue with and claiming that this is heretical language, the way this language is put in here.

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So, this is the original prophetic standard statement, we reject the notion that a contemporary prophetic word is on the same level of inspiration or authority as scripture, or that God always speaks inerrantly through prophets today, since the

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Bible says we only know in part and prophesy in part. I would note that is an egregious misappropriation of 1

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Corinthians 13 .9. You know, because the narrative in the charismatic movement is that, you know, you get these impressions and you give your prophecy and other prophets are supposed to weigh it and go, you know, that part sounds right to me.

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And this part over here, you know, you might want to listen clearer, you know, listen a little harder, see if you're hearing properly.

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And that's not what's going on. Again, the test in scripture is to test whether or not it is from God.

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If it is not from God, then it is to be rejected. And the person giving the prophecy is rejected as a false prophet, 1

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John 4 .1. So, here's what we've done. I've taken the AALCs, statement, and I've used it and kind of woven it together.

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And I'm going to fix this broken statement here because, you know, confessional

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Lutherans are not strict cessationists and believe that things have to be tested. So, let's go with this language and let's get to the gist of it and you'll see how then the proper way to fix this is.

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Now, we affirm that the scriptures are the only inerrant and infallible word of God and the only rule and norm, norma normans, by which all teachers, teachings, and alleged prophets and their alleged prophecies are to be judged.

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Norma normata, they have to be normed by scripture. So, all scripture is God -breathed.

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It therefore stands as judge of all contemporary movements, theologies, and alleged prophecies.

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God's word judges experience and any purported prophetic dream, vision, or word and not vice versa.

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So, because the Bible encourages us to understand spiritual gifts and to desire them, we reject any kind of dispensationalism, which says that the gifts of the spirit are not for today.

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While we have seen abuse of the gifts, we would correct it not with rejection, but by proper reception and stewardship, proper reception.

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So, we heed the balanced admonition of St. Paul, who wrote, do not quench the spirit, do not despise prophecies, but test everything, hold fast to what is good, abstain from every evil.

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So, continuing on then, this is my fix of the broken prophetic standard statement.

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The only prophecy that can claim inerrancy is the prophecy of scripture itself, norma normans.

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It is the norming norm. The gift of prophecy is rightly received today, neither supersedes nor contradicts the word of God, it uplifts it.

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Therefore, since the New Testament test, which is given to the church through the

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Holy Spirit, through the apostle John, for determining whether a prophet is a true prophet or a false prophet, see 1

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John 4, 1, requires Christians to test whether the prophecy is from God or another spirit.

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And I put the quote there here. Therefore, one, all alleged prophecies which contradict or add to the word of God are to be rejected because they are, quote, not from God.

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And the prophet who delivered them is to be rejected as a false prophet, see 1 John 4, 1, and a blasphemer who has taken

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God's name in vain. And we'll talk about that more in a minute. And that person needs to be called to repent of their sins of blasphemy and cry out to Christ to be forgiven or to forgive them and then bear fruit in keeping with repentance.

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Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ does not have God, 2 John chapter 1, verse 9.

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Actually, there's only one chapter in 2 John, right? So, here's the second part of it then. Therefore, since God cannot and does not lie,

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Numbers 23, 19, Titus 1, 2, every word of God proves true,

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Proverbs 30, verse 5. God's word does not return to him void.

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I'm going to make a quick edit here. Might as well edit the grammar while I'm at it, right? God's word does not return to him void, but always accomplishes and succeeds in the thing for which

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God sent it, Isaiah 55, 11. And God has clearly stated that, quote, if you say in your heart, how may we know the word that Yahweh has not spoken?

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When a prophet speaks in the name of Yahweh, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that Yahweh has not spoken.

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Therefore, when an alleged prophet claims to have received a prophecy or revelation from God that predicts future events or details that do not come to pass, the alleged prophecy is to be rejected because it is not from God.

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And the alleged prophet who delivered the prophecy is to be rejected as a false prophet and a blasphemer who has taken

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God's name in vain. And they need to be called to repent of their sins of blasphemy and to cry out to Christ to forgive them and then bear fruit in keeping with repentance.

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You see, it's really that simple. All you have to do is apply the biblical

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New Testament test to today's prophets. And that requires us to determine the origin of the prophecy.

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And we know that when somebody says, thus saith the Lord, and it doesn't come to pass, that is a word that the

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Lord hasn't saith. Right? You get the idea here.

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So, let's put this into real world, current false prophecy status.

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Number one, I would invoke every one of the alleged prophets,

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Jeremiah Johnson, Hank Kunneman, Sean Bowles, Chris Vallotton, all of them, the whole lot, every single one of them who said

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Trump was going to win the election in November of 2020, we can then apply this rule from 1

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John 4, 1 to determine the source of the prophecy. Was it God who's told them that?

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Or was it a different spirit? We can rule out now God. God did not tell them

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Trump was going to win. And this isn't a matter of them misinterpreting or mishearing

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God. This is about the fact that God did not say these things. And Deuteronomy 18 clearly gives us a test.

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How do we know a word that the Lord has not spoken? Well, when it doesn't come to pass.

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So, we can say every single one of the people who prophesied that Trump would win the election, false prophet, according to the standard of 1

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John 4, 1, because we now know the source. The source isn't God. And then when it comes to, you know,

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Troy Black, who we took to task earlier in the week, same thing. He prophesied that there was going to be a major storm to hit

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Anchorage that would wipe out the transportation system. And it never happened. It never showed up. Did God tell him those words?

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No. No, he did not. God is not the source of that prophecy.

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Therefore, Troy Black is a false prophet. Now, real quick,

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I'm going to come back here, and I want you to hear part of the roundtable discussion that recently occurred.

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Let me find it real quick. It's probably right there. Here we go. Roundtable discussion between Justin Peters, Phil Johnson, and Jim Osman, the guy who wrote the book,

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God Doesn't Whisper. And I want you to listen to their conversation as it relates to the current way the prophetic standard statement is written.

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And you're going to hear them say that as it currently is written, it's heretical. I'm not the only person who thinks this is heretical.

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And the issue is they are inferring that God can speak errantly.

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And that's the issue. And now that I've cleaned up the prophetic standard statement and brought it in line with the actual biblical standards, you can see that.

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I affirm that God doesn't lie. And when inaccurate prophecies are given, we know from the biblical test that God hasn't spoken those words.

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Therefore, we can reject the false prophets. And that's the nubbins here.

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But listen to this portion of their conversation. Right. And I want to bring up, too, in this number 21, that I have number 21, we reject the notion that a contemporary prophetic word.

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So that part, and it says, let me just read it. We reject the notion that a contemporary prophetic word is on the same level or inspiration or authority as Scripture.

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We dealt with that. Now look at how this next phrase is phrased, or that God always speaks inerrantly through prophets today, since the

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Bible says we only know in part and prophesy in part. Now, that's an abuse of that passage. That is a gross abuse of that passage.

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And I guess we... Yeah, absolutely. It's a gross abuse of 1 Corinthians 13. We can talk about what that passage means.

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But I was watching you and Chris Roseborough when y 'all dealt with this. The way that that is stated is actually heretical.

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Yeah, it is. In essence, they're saying if you take all the intervening words out and just put the phrase, the operative phrase, these are their exact words.

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We reject the notion that God always speaks inerrantly. That's... And it boils down to that.

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That is actually what they're saying when they say, I have a word from the Lord, but it may be wrong.

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What you're saying is then God doesn't always speak inerrantly. And in effect, that's what they're saying.

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I think when you reduce it to that level of clarity, they're going to deny that that's what they're saying. Yeah. Yeah, and that's what the remnant radio guys are doing.

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But that in practice is how they act, how they teach, what they do. You know, that is what they believe.

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They don't think that God always speaks inerrantly. Right. And so... You know that statement, let

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God be true and every man a liar? Right. In the charismatic movement, every prophet is true, but God is the liar. Yep.

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He's the one who speaks falsely. But no prophet is ever false. It's God himself who's false.

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Right. Prophets always get it right. They're always true. They're never going to be questioned in this movement. Yeah. But God himself is the one who cannot speak inerrantly.

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Exactly. Because the subject here is God. The verb is speaks. Yeah. And the adverb...

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The way Phil phrased it there is absolutely right. We reject the notion that God speaks, always speaks inerrantly.

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And you could say, you know, you might would say, well, that was just poorly worded if this was a first draft or something.

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But by their own admission, this went through many revisions. It crossed many eyes and physical eyes.

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You know, a lot of different charismatic leaders read this and it was massaged and edited and all that.

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And this is what they came up with. That's troubling. Well, that is actually their theology, though. They have to state that.

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It's stated so patently clearly there that it's hard for us to miss it. It's obvious on the surface.

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But that is what they have to believe to hold to the idea that they can have a prophet who speaks from the Lord and says, this is the word of the

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Lord, but they get it wrong and they say things that are wrong. They have to say that God does not always speak inerrantly.

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Sometimes he speaks through a prophet, but it somehow comes out the other end wrong, which means that either it can only mean that God either intentionally is not speaking inerrantly.

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So he's intentionally lying. That's one option. Or that God cannot guarantee the successful and inerrant delivery of his message through the prophet.

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So you either have a God who is not omniscient, or sorry, not omnipotent, or a

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God who is not always intentionally truthful. Yep. And that's the problem with the statement.

32:30

The prophetic standard statement puts the error on God. And that's the problem, even though it says through the prophets.

32:38

The issue is the emphasis is on the wrong syllable. And when I cleaned it up, you know,

32:44

I absolutely affirmed that God only speaks the truth. And that one of the, and that the standard is to test whether or not the prophecy is from God or not.

32:55

So let's go back to our, let's go back to our roadmap here. And let's see where we're at in our roadmap.

33:03

So does the ALC believe that God speaks inherently? No. What the guys at Remnant Radio did is they took the prophetic standards document and the

33:12

ALC's statement on the Holy Spirit, paragraph two, and conflated the two together.

33:18

And the idea is, is that their issue is, is that, well, this, what the ALC said is what the prophetic standard statement was really implying that that's what they really meant.

33:29

The issue is that that's not the document says, that's not what it says. As it stands, what the prophetic standards document says is heretical.

33:39

I'm not the only person pointing this out. Okay. So we've got that worked out.

33:45

And then I fixed it. All right. So we're going to identify the core error then of Remnant Radio, as it relates to what they're calling fallible transmission.

33:56

Along the way, we'll get Grudem's definition of prophecy, which I reject because I don't see any biblical basis for his definition at all.

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And their spurious comparisons of the Bible to modern prophecy.

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So I have to put my notes here so that I can see them and watch accordingly.

34:17

But we're going to start with Michael Miller on, in his conversation, his statements regarding the issue is fallible prophets.

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And we're going to show that this is absolutely untenable. But I think the problem is, from the very get -go, he's misrepresenting every person who signed the document.

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If you were to ask every single person who signed that document, guys, do you think God lies?

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They'll go, no, there's no way that God lies. They would agree that God doesn't lie.

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And so I think, yeah, yeah. So the problem here is not so much, well,

34:54

I think the problem is that he's misrepresenting what the authors of this document intended to say. They're not trying to say that God lies, that God is errant.

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What they're trying to say is prophets are errant in their transmission of what they heard

35:08

God inerrantly say. Jared Okay. So if that's what they intended to say, why didn't they just say that?

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Because the document as it stands is heretical, saying that God doesn't speak inerrantly.

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That's the problem. Now you're putting the issue with the transmission, right? But here's the thing.

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This is a completely untenable position on this basis. If they were hearing from God the

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Holy Spirit, remember, the biblical test is to determine if it is from God.

35:41

That's what the Holy Spirit commands us through 1 John 4, 1. So we have to believe that the

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Holy Spirit is up in heaven communicating to today's prophets going, hi, this is the

35:55

Holy Spirit, and I want to let you know who's going to win the election in November, and the person who's going to win is

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Joe Biden. Okay? Because God doesn't lie. And then regarding Troy Black, that the

36:12

Holy Spirit in fact said this, hi, this is the Holy Spirit, and I know you're playing video games,

36:18

Troy, but I want to let you know that you need let everybody in Anchorage, Alaska know that there's not going to be a storm in May of 2021, that everything's going to be great, it's going to be warm, and it's going to be fantastic.

36:30

I want you to let everybody know that. But what did all the prophets say regarding Trump? God told me

36:37

Trump's going to win, and Troy Black said God told me that there's going to be a major storm in Anchorage.

36:45

So we've got a problem here, is that whatever the

36:50

Holy Spirit said is the polar opposite of what the prophets said that the

37:01

Holy Spirit said. And so, you're basically leading us to believe that God is incapable of communicating to people in a way that they understand the message properly.

37:15

That the issue is that, well, the prophets heard from God, but they transmitted the information inaccurately.

37:25

The Holy Spirit said Biden, and they heard Trump. The Holy Spirit said

37:31

Anchorage is going to be great in May, and Troy said there's going to be a storm.

37:38

You see, this doesn't make any sense. When you start applying it to the actual presenting issue, and by the way, the prophetic standards document is the direct result of all of the failed

37:48

Trump prophecies. So, for the remnant radio guys to come in and basically say, no, no, no,

37:53

God, God spoke inerrantly to the prophets. They just messed up in their transmission of the prophecies.

38:00

This doesn't hold any water at all. And so, next statement then here, also by Michael Miller, and this one's short, but listen to what he says here.

38:10

In the same way, we shouldn't be calling people false prophets because they're speaking errantly.

38:16

Again, prophets speaking errantly, not God. All right. So, prophets speak inerrantly, but not

38:22

God. So, the issue is the prophet. But the prophetic standards statement makes

38:29

God the problem, okay? And again, this explanation doesn't stand up to any kind of scrutiny.

38:38

God said Biden, all the prophets said Trump. What's going on here?

38:44

Scripture's clear. God didn't speak to those people, and 1 John 4 .1 says that they're false prophets.

38:50

That's how this works. Okay. Now, at the basis of this is a false definition of prophecy.

38:58

Listen to Joshua Lewis's explanation here of his definition of what prophecy is based on.

39:06

I would just like on the heels of that. No, you're good. There are two terms, two definitions, one given by D .A.

39:13

Carson and one given by Wayne Grudem. Wayne Grudem defines prophecy as speaking in mere human words to report something that God brings to mind.

39:22

So, again... No, that is not a biblical definition of prophecy at all. Not even close.

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When you read Isaiah, I mean, the word of the Lord came to Isaiah.

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Jeremiah, his description of how the word of the Lord comes to him makes it sound like Jesus was standing right in front of him.

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Same with Balaam, by the way, who prophesied truth, even though he was absolutely a charlatan.

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And God stood and talked to him. In fact, I would note that in the New Testament, we talk about prophecy.

39:57

Consider this. Acts chapter 9, there was a disciple of Damascus named Ananias, and the

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Lord said to him in a vision, Ananias, and he said, Here I am, Lord. He knew exactly who was talking to him.

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This isn't about impressions or things that God is bringing to your mind. So, I have to challenge their definition of what prophecy is because what they're doing is basically saying all of those fleeting impressions that you have inside of your mind, those could potentially be prophecies from God.

40:28

I mean, that's like saying, I'm going to go work for a big oil company and we're going to look for a good oil deposit, and you start drilling in somebody's backyard and you hit their septic tank, and a gusher comes up and you think you've struck oil.

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No, nowhere in Scripture does it teach that prophecy is our impressions, and that's the core problem.

40:53

A real word from God is actually from God, and God speaks it,

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God communicates it, the person receiving it knows it's

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God, and they are able to accurately transmit it as well.

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So, when you have this thing where, oh, this impression, I'm getting an impression, I feel like I'm getting a download, that's not prophecy, and that's the issue.

41:22

And this is why these guys are defending this, because they have a false definition of what prophecy is.

41:28

A prophecy is an actual oracle from God. Now, when somebody comes along claiming to have an oracle of God, it has to be tested according to the biblical standards.

41:40

And by the way, when I fix their document for them, yeah, the two tests that I gave, that's not an exhaustive test.

41:50

Now, I'll make a note here, and that is that the guys at Remnant Radio don't like prophecy bingo, but at its core, you want to know what prophecy bingo is?

41:58

It's a test, and it tests to show that these people are not hearing from God, not even close.

42:09

In fact, if your prophecy is just filled with a bunch of prophecy bingo buzzwords, you know,

42:15

I feel like the Lord is telling me, I'm getting an impression right now that in this season, that there's going to be suddenlies and breakthroughs, and that there's going to be a leaky sound membrane, and we're going to tune the

42:28

Mexican border with a tuning fork. That is not a prophecy.

42:34

That is not God speaking. That is gibberish nonsense, and that is not the voice of God.

42:41

And prophecy bingo, whether they like it or not, is a test. And so they say, yeah, but you're mocking them.

42:46

Here's the thing. I'll point this out now, you know, might as well while we're here, right?

42:54

We have an entire episode called The Biblical Case for Satire and Snark, and I'm not the one who delivered this message.

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Hans Feeney of the Lutheran Satire Channel, he's the one who delivered this particular message, and it's brilliant.

43:11

Biblical Case for Satire and Snark. And we're going to note that if you want to understand why we engage in humor and snark, and why we refuse to treat false prophets and blasphemers reverently, then you're going to, you know, this is a good lecture for you.

43:28

In fact, we treat false prophets and blasphemers with irreverence because of their blasphemy and their irreverence.

43:36

That's the point. So yeah, you kind of get the idea. But all of that being said, let me come back then here.

43:44

So we've discussed, okay, and so there's spurious idea then that somehow prophecy is about the impressions that you get inside.

43:56

That's not prophecy. Grudem's definition is false on its face, and there's no biblical text that teaches that at all.

44:04

And here's the thing. There isn't a single prophet, Old or New Testament, in Scripture that got it wrong.

44:12

When they prophesied, they spoke with the authority of God himself. And so now we're going to come to the part where the guys at Remnant Radio, they failed to properly understand the gist of Exodus 20 verse 7, which is one of the 10 commandments.

44:29

Now, I'll own this. I'll basically say, maybe here I wasn't as clear as I ought, but here's the gist of it.

44:39

When somebody says, thus saith the Lord, Donald Trump is going to win the 2020 election and Biden wins, they have broken this commandment and they have blasphemed

44:58

God. Think of it this way, blasphemy is an actual sin that human beings, individuals commit.

45:06

You can do it collectively, you can do it as an individual, and I would note, since they like Grudem so much, let's quote

45:16

Grudem on what this commandment means. From Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology, page 157, the command, you shall not take the name of the

45:27

Lord your God in vain, Exodus 20 verse 7, is a command that we not dishonor God's reputation by either words that speak of him in a foolish or a misleading way, or by actions that do not reflect his true character.

45:45

And so, you'll note, we can blaspheme God's name by living like pagans rather than Christians.

45:56

But note then, even Grudem recognizes that when you mislead, that that is a breaking of the commandment and you are guilty of the sin of blasphemy.

46:06

In the same way, Scripture says you shall not commit adultery. So, we all know and we recognize that if you're married and you have sexual intercourse with somebody who's not your spouse, you are an adulterer.

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That's just how this works. And nobody sits there, oh, that's passe, that's a thing for the

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Old Testament, that doesn't apply today. It applies. You sleep with somebody who's not your spouse, you're an adulterer.

46:35

In the same way, when you say, thus saith the Lord, and the Lord hasn't thus saith, you commit the sin of blasphemy and you've broken this commandment.

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And you'll hear me discuss this with Justin Peters a little bit later. I'll ask him straight up.

46:55

And if you go back into my interview with Phil Johnson, I asked him straight up, if you give a false prophecy, are you guilty of the sin of blasphemy?

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Without batting an eyelash, Phil Johnson said, absolutely, yes, you are guilty of blaspheming.

47:11

This is part of the reason why it then is impossible, absolutely impossible for somebody to give a false prophecy and for it to be okay.

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It's not okay. Nor for somebody to give a false prophecy and for us to just treat it lightly.

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When the person has said, thus saith the Lord, and the Lord hasn't thus saith, they have blasphemed and they have misled people.

47:40

And they may be deceived or they may be deceivers, it doesn't matter. The test of a true prophet is whether or not the prophecy is from God, and giving an accurate prophecy makes you, according to 1

47:55

John 4, 1, a false prophet. And Exodus 20, verse 7, then, because you have misled, you have deceived people, used

48:04

God's name to basically prop up your false prophecy, you are guilty of being a blasphemer as well.

48:14

Exodus 20, verse 7 makes it impossible for somebody to give a false prophecy and for them to be a true prophet.

48:23

They are instead a blasphemer who must be called to repentance and must repent and bear fruit in keeping with repentance.

48:31

And you'll note then, if their belief is that, well, a prophecy is something that's an impression that God brings to my mind, that's a false definition of prophecy, and there's your problem right there.

48:43

That's the core nubbins of this. And so, we'll note then, we're going to take a look at how the

48:48

Remnant Radio guys addressed this issue of Exodus 20, verse 7.

48:57

And, you know, again, I'll take it, that maybe I just wasn't as clear as I needed to be because they didn't really address the actual issue itself of the fact that when you give a false prophecy, you've blasphemed.

49:13

But let's take a listen. Why does the prophetic standard statement not commit blasphemy? Is this really bearing the name of the

49:20

Lord in vain? And what does it really mean to bear the name of the Lord in vain? I've got a couple of quotes. I'm going to have Michael read for us.

49:26

Okay, sure. Which Michael? You want me? Yeah, go for it. Okay, sure. So, this is Christopher J. H.

49:32

Wright. He says, Bearing the name of Yahweh is comparable in meaning to the high priest bearing the names of the tribes of Israel on his breastplate and bearing the name of Yahweh on his forehead.

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He represents in both directions those whose name he bears. Yeah, I just think this is completely missing the point.

49:49

The point is that when you say, thus saith the Lord and the Lord hasn't thus saith, you've blasphemed.

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You've broken this commandment. Similarly, those who bore the name of Yahweh, like those who bear the name of Christ, represented the name before the watching world.

50:02

Israel was called to live in the midst of the nations as the people who bore the name of Yahweh and made

50:07

Yahweh visible to the world by walking in his ways and reflecting his character. To bear the name of the Lord was not merely an inestimable privilege and blessing, but a challenging ethical and missional responsibility.

50:20

This makes eminent sense to me, and its New Testament parallels are obvious, okay? Now, what does that mean?

50:26

What that means is bearing God's name, let me create a parallel, is getting married and someone taking your name.

50:34

And then going out and ruining your family name because they've taken your name, or you have adopted a child. That's exactly what it is, yeah.

50:41

Okay, so when somebody gives a false prophecy, it's absolutely, not just inaccurate, it's like dead wrong.

50:50

Have they besmirched the name of God? Yes, absolutely.

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And according to Exodus 20, verse seven, they've blasphemed by taking God's name to falsehood.

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And they've gone out and they've ruined your family name because they're representing you. Now, he makes the correlation that the priest would have the ephod with the names of Israel, and they would bear the name of Israel before the

51:14

Lord. And what he's saying is we are bearing the name of the Lord throughout the earth. And this is important in Lutheran theology.

51:21

And in Lutheran theology, they want to make a beeline to the Ten Commandments, right? The Ten Commandments define what is a good work and what is a sin.

51:31

This isn't a Lutheran thing, this is a Christian thing. I mean, long before I was a

51:37

Lutheran, if I even remotely said anything that would be considered blasphemous around church people,

51:47

I would have been rebuked. This was when I was a Nazarene. If I would ever let out the words,

51:55

OMG, oh my goodness, I would be rebuked and say, you've just blasphemed and you need to repent.

52:03

Okay, so this isn't a Lutheran thing. The Ten Commandments define for all of us what is good, what is sinful, what is moral, what is immoral.

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And this commandment, you shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, that's not for Lutherans, that's for all of humanity.

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Whether you're a Christian or not, it is a sin when you take God's name in vain and you use it to mislead and to basically bear false witness, saying

52:38

God said something when he didn't. When having an issue with a certain sin, for example, watching too much

52:46

TV or, you know, sin of idolatry, giving myself to TikTok for too long, it's like, that's idolatry.

52:53

Well, I didn't make an idol. And they go, no, but the idol is in your heart, right? Christ has been removed from your heart.

52:59

This is the problem. It's a part of, again, I don't want to make it as if Chris is misrepresenting or mutilating this.

53:07

In fact, I would agree with Chris. I would agree that a prophecy that is not 100 % accurate, a prophecy that is not true, a false prophecy, a wrong prophecy does not bear the name of the

53:20

Lord well. Oh, my

53:30

God. I'm having a hard time finding a metaphor that even fits here. You know, yeah, so if I decided

53:36

I was going to become a Christian bank robber, you know, I'm not bearing the name of the

53:41

Lord well. You think? Okay. The issue here is not about bearing the name of the

53:48

Lord well. You've blasphemed God's name and carried it into falsehood.

53:55

There's a big difference. And so what I've noticed with many in the charismatic movement, and I noted it when

54:03

I was a charismatic, that they really underplay these commands and do not see the seriousness and refuse to acknowledge the absolute seriousness of what it means to take

54:18

God's name in vain. I mean, they don't see it for what it is. And God says,

54:24

I will not hold him guiltless who takes my name in vain. You want to get on the fast track to having

54:31

God harden your heart? Oh, just start blaspheming him. Blame him for every false word or impression that you claim is coming from him.

54:41

Oh, yeah, you'll invoke his wrath rather quickly. So, I mean, again, this is just stunning, stunning that they would make so light of somebody who flagrantly is besmirching the name of God.

55:00

That's the part that I just don't get. They are absolutely convinced that their impressions are from God and that that's what prophecy is.

55:10

It's not. That's not what prophecy is. And as a result of it, they are willing to shave off the hard edges of God's law and dilute his law in order for the purpose of supporting their false idea and their false understanding of what prophecy is.

55:26

And then lastly, we'll talk about their false narrative around Deuteronomy 18.

55:35

And it's in this point where I want to show something here. Let me see let me go forward there, right here.

55:43

So, you'll note that at the end of this episode, they called me a cult leader, by the way, which was slander.

55:49

I'm not a cult leader, far from it. But they're reading the book, The Kingdom of the

55:55

Cults by Walter Martin. I've spoken with Walter Martin prior to his death. It was a short conversation, but I was also trained by people who worked very closely with Walter Martin.

56:05

That being the case, I'm going to point something out here that I'm glad they're reading The Kingdom of the

56:11

Cults. But in The Kingdom of the Cults, Walter Martin writes something that I think the

56:16

Remnant Radio guys would do well to pay attention to. And I hope that they don't rebuke

56:23

Walter because Walter was right. In Walter's chapter, chapter 12 on the

56:29

Armstrong heresy and Armstrongism, here's what he says, new revelations that breed false predictions.

56:38

Martin wrote, when one stands parallel with biblical prophets, it becomes a short step to predicting future events.

56:46

Armstrong wrote, God dealt with me in no uncertain terms, even as he has dealt with Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Jonah, Andrew, Peter, and the

56:54

Apostle Paul. The mark of God's prophets is that they never erred.

57:01

Deuteronomy 13, Deuteronomy 18, Isaiah 8. In contrast, even a false prophet may have a sign come to pass, but eventually he will miss the mark, which undoubtedly proves he is not from God.

57:20

Yes, exactly. That's, and even Walter Martin understood that the test of a prophet is to test whether they are from God, if they're bringing

57:29

God's words to us or not. And when somebody gives a false prophecy, even

57:34

Walter Martin understands that that person is not from God.

57:42

So coming back then to the Remnant Radio guys, we're going to listen to how they create a false narrative around Deuteronomy 18 in order to make it so that it doesn't apply today.

57:58

And Michael Roundtree will be the guy who does that. To Deuteronomy 18, what's happening in Deuteronomy 18 is

58:05

Moses, the Holy Spirit through Moses is instructing them to look for a prophet like him.

58:11

And if it's really that prophet, his words are going to come to pass. That's what it's saying. And anybody posing to be that, somebody posing to be a covenant mediator, that's the context in which it's talking about misprophecy.

58:26

It's not just this isolated verse. It's in the context of a poser. Okay. So a poser of a covenant mediator, that's misapplying the passage and not exegeting it correctly.

58:38

So in Deuteronomy 18, it is absolutely true that there is a prophecy regarding Christ.

58:46

Here's what it says, Deuteronomy 18, Yahweh, your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers.

58:54

It is to him you shall listen, just as you desired of Yahweh, your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly, when you said, let me not hear again the voice of Yahweh, my

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God, or see this great fire anymore lest I die. And Yahweh said to me, they're right in what they have spoken.

59:09

I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And you're going to note here,

59:16

Moses is called a what? A prophet. Christ is called a prophet.

59:21

Notice it doesn't use the term covenant mediator, and this is the issue, is that the way the charismatics get around this standard for determining whether or not a word is from God is by saying, well, this is only in the context of a covenant mediator.

59:39

And so it only applies to people who are posers, people who say, I am a covenant mediator.

59:45

I am a prophet like Moses. No, the text actually says prophet, prophet, prophet, and there is a test given, and it doesn't say if they claim to be a covenant mediator and they give a false prophecy, then kill them.

01:00:04

No, it's they claim to be speaking for God. So Yahweh said to me, they're right in what they've spoken. I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers.

01:00:13

I will put my words in his mouth and he shall speak to them all that I command him. And whoever will not listen to my words that he shall speak in my name,

01:00:21

I myself will require it of him. So you're going to note here, God is basically saying, you don't listen to Jesus, he's going to require it of you, which then begs the question, well, how do we know when

01:00:34

God hasn't spoken? So the prophet then, who presumes to speak a word in my name, and that's what all these false prophets are.

01:00:44

There are people who presume to speak words in God's name that I have not commanded them to speak or who speak in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.

01:00:53

So you're going to note here, who speak in the name of other gods, that's not somebody who's a covenant mediator.

01:01:00

This is a general test for all prophets of all time.

01:01:06

So if you say in your heart, how may we know the word that Yahweh has not spoken? When a prophet speaks in the name of Yahweh, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that Yahweh has not spoken.

01:01:19

The prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him. So again, the test is whether or not the person is from God, whether the words are from God, and this makes it clear that if they give a prophecy and says something's going to happen and it doesn't take place, those are words that God hasn't spoken.

01:01:39

So coming back to these gentlemen here, I would just ask these guys, so are you legitimately for real saying that all the prophets who prophesied that Trump would win, that God literally told them

01:01:56

Biden would win, and that they just misheard, misinterpreted, misunderstood what

01:02:03

God the Holy Spirit was saying, and that they're not false prophets, but that God actually spoke to them?

01:02:11

Because scripture is clear. God didn't say those words. They weren't sent by God.

01:02:17

In fact, they're not from God at all. And 1 John 4, 1 says to mark them as false prophets.

01:02:25

That's the idea. If they're not speaking words from God, the words are not from God, they are false prophets.

01:02:32

So I think you get the whole point. So obviously, we've got a big problem here, and let's check our roadmap so that we make sure we don't miss anything that we needed to cover along the way.

01:02:46

So does the ALC believe? No, we don't. I'm going to identify the core error, did that.

01:02:51

Discuss the failure? Yep, did that. Discuss their false narrative regarding Deuteronomy 18? Yep, did that.

01:02:56

Also pointed out Walter Martin. And then I've already talked about snark and humor.

01:03:02

And by the way, a little bit of a note here. When you look at our video thumbs, question, why do we warp them?

01:03:09

Initially, the reason why we warp them is for copyright reasons, because the people we go after don't like being critiqued.

01:03:17

But over the course of time, we've engaged in more and more warping.

01:03:23

And our basic philosophy is that Scripture says that people like this, that they are warped. So we use the warping as a visual storytelling that basically says, this person is warped in their theology, in their mishandling of God's Word, in their false prophecies.

01:03:41

And so we visually depict that. And I will not apologize for that. We've just visually created a way of seeing the way

01:03:49

Scripture defines folks like this. They are warped. And so we warp them.

01:03:56

And it's a good visual way of saying, yeah, this person's theology is really warped, and they're really twisting

01:04:02

God's Word. So my hope for the Remnant Radio guys is that they stop justifying or watering down the seriousness of these false prophecies, that they would repent of their false narrative regarding Deuteronomy 18, and the false definition they have as to what prophecy is, and recognize the biblical standard of 1

01:04:25

John 4 .1. We are to test whether the Word is from God, and if it's not, the person is a false prophet, and they need to repent, and they need to repent of the sin of blasphemy, because they've broken one of the

01:04:38

Ten Commandments. So for part two, and I know that we're well into the hour, a little bit past the hour here, part two, we have a long conversation with Justin Peters along these lines, and we'll deal with the issue of, you know, if I continue on the way

01:04:53

I'm going, I'll be the only person who's right. Nonsense. My theology hasn't changed.

01:05:00

My doctrine hasn't changed. And I've been applying the same standard that I have believed and applied across my work as a counter -cult apologist, as a

01:05:10

Christian teacher, and a Christian pastor. So with that, let's take a look at my interview from yesterday with Justin Peters regarding this statement and the

01:05:22

Remnant Radio response. So Justin, glad that you're able to join us, and I invited you on because I wanted to talk, you know, invite you on for your insights regarding the prophetic standard statement.

01:05:38

And the Remnant Radio fellows, they've challenged me, they've questioned me, they've put out a response video, but I found their arguments to be lacking in a few things, and I wanted to get some of your insights on this.

01:05:57

And so let me ask you a question that I don't know the answer to. Were you ever influenced by the ministry of the late

01:06:07

Dr. Walter Martin? Yes, somewhat, yes. I have read some of his work, yes.

01:06:15

Okay, are you aware that Walter Martin believed that the Mormon prophet Joseph Smith was a false prophet because he gave false prophecies and cited

01:06:24

Deuteronomy 18 as proof for that? Yes, I am aware of that, yes.

01:06:30

Okay, yeah, that's in The Maze of Mormonism and some of his other notable lectures. And so I bring that up because one of the arguments that the

01:06:39

Remnant Radio guys kind of threw out there is that somehow I'm the one dividing the body of Christ, that I'm sowing division as a result of this outrageous belief of mine that it is wrong to believe that God speaks errantly.

01:06:58

And you recently had, you went through the entire document with Phil Johnson and Jim Osman, and I found it notable to note what you guys spoke about when you got to that part near the end of the document as it relates to they reject the notion that God speaks inerrantly through prophets today.

01:07:22

And you know, of course, my take on this is that what they're describing is a different deity than the actual deity of Scripture.

01:07:33

Can you just walk me through, what did you and Jim Osman think about that?

01:07:38

Because I remember Osman's point, but I think it'd be better if you actually made it. Yes, Chris, we did.

01:07:44

We went through the whole statement. And as I have these numbered there, there's 22 different we believe and we affirm or we reject statements.

01:07:53

And number 21 is particularly troubling. In fact, you could do the whole, you could reject the whole statement based just on number 21, but it says, we reject the notion that a contemporary prophetic word is on the same level of inspiration or authority as Scripture.

01:08:11

Well, on what basis? I mean, as I often say in my teaching,

01:08:17

God cannot speak less authoritatively on one occasion than he does on another.

01:08:23

If God is speaking, God is speaking. He cannot speak in the Bible and really, really mean it.

01:08:30

But when he speaks to us today outside of the Bible, he somehow still means it, but not as much as he meant it in Scripture.

01:08:38

That is completely nonsensical. But here's the next part.

01:08:43

Or that God always speaks inherently through prophets today, since the

01:08:49

Bible says we only know in part or prophesy in part. Okay, that's troubling.

01:08:56

As it is written, that is heresy.

01:09:02

Because as you pointed out in your video, the subject here is God. The verb is speaks.

01:09:08

The adverb is inherently. And they say we reject that. We reject that God speaks inherently through prophets today.

01:09:18

Right. Now, maybe they didn't mean it the way it was written, and you could almost give them a pass and say, well, it's, you know, they were just kind of clumsy with their wording.

01:09:29

But this was by their own admission, this is a statement that went through many revisions. Yeah. And had a lot of different eyes on it.

01:09:37

So this was not like a rough draft and, you know, full of typos or whatever. And the way that statement is written, that is heretical.

01:09:46

Because it says that it is possible for God to speak errantly. Right. Now, the remnant radio guys, here's what they claim.

01:09:57

They claim, listen, listen, this is like when somebody opens up the

01:10:02

Bible. And when they open up the Bible, if they don't rightly handle a biblical text, we agree that the

01:10:10

Bible is inerrant. But when somebody, you know, preaches God's Word and they mess up the text or the meaning of it, there's fallible teachers, therefore there's fallible prophets.

01:10:23

The issue isn't that God didn't speak inerrantly. The issue is that the messenger misinterpreted or misunderstood what

01:10:30

God revealed. What are your thoughts on that idea? Well, they're confusing the gift of teaching with the gift of prophecy or being a true prophet.

01:10:44

I firmly, I say very unequivocally that there is no such thing as an infallible teacher.

01:10:51

People have told me that I have the gift of teaching and I hope

01:10:56

I use that to the glory of God. But am I infallible in what I teach? Absolutely not. I teach to the very best of my ability, but I'm not infallible.

01:11:05

Prophecy is different. Prophecy, you are getting direct divine revelation from God.

01:11:14

You're not beginning with a text and expounding upon that text. Prophecy is a message directly from God to the prophet that he communicates with 100 % accuracy.

01:11:30

Old and New Testament. And there is no such thing as a fallible New Testament prophet.

01:11:37

No. Old Testament prophets were infallible, but New Testament prophets are, you know, they could be wrong.

01:11:43

No, that is absolutely untenable from Scripture. Right. And the other thing is, is like in the

01:11:49

New Testament, the book of Acts, there was a prophecy regarding a famine. We can see the apostle Paul taking up donations regarding a famine.

01:11:58

And that when, when there was prophecy in the New Testament era in the new covenant, that those prophets, prophecies had, had authority to them and they came true.

01:12:10

And, and so, you know, God's, God's word was, God's name was stamped on those prophecies.

01:12:17

Now, let me throw, throw a curveball at you because, you know, I, I've been sharpening my biblical pencil on this.

01:12:26

And, and one of the things I was taught in seminary is also as part of my undergraduate work, when it comes to proper exegesis and hermeneutics, there's a hierarchy when it comes to understanding

01:12:40

Scripture. For instance, clear passages always govern unclear. So, you don't take a passage like from Galatians that says that in Christ there is neither

01:12:50

Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, and say that somehow that then applies to the pastoral office because that's not a text related to the pastoral office at all.

01:13:02

That's something very different. That's just talking about the equality that we have standing before God. So, you have to have, there's a hierarchy.

01:13:08

Clear passages always govern unclear and off -topic texts don't ever apply.

01:13:15

So, what I've noticed is that in the, in the charismatic movement and also in this prophetic standard statement, they don't go to the clearest passage regarding, passages regarding testing the prophets.

01:13:27

In fact, they seem to be kind of obfuscating. And so, in my takedown video that we had earlier this week on Troy Black, who prophesied that in the month of May that there would be a major storm in Anchorage, Alaska that would knock out the transportation system.

01:13:48

And that, and there were polar bears involved in it and apparently a big major snowstorm or whatever. Well, we tracked that, the weather for all of Anchorage in the month of May, even had some of our viewers send us videos and well, there was no storm that knocked out the transportation system.

01:14:07

There wasn't even a snowstorm of any kind. They had one day where they got four -tenths of an inch of rain and that's like the gist of it.

01:14:15

And so, what I did in that video, I went through the unclear passages and then went to the clear passages.

01:14:23

Let me explain what I mean. So, in 1 Corinthians 14, it talks about how if somebody has a prophecy or a revelation, they present it and then it's weighed by the others.

01:14:34

Now, the word for weigh there and even the way it's phrased is not really clear what the weighing is.

01:14:42

1 Thessalonians 5 says, not to despise prophecies, but to test them, hold that which is good and abstain from every evil.

01:14:49

But the testing, the details of the testing are not given. So, I went then to what

01:14:56

I consider to be the clearest text on this as far as what we are supposed to be testing and it's found in 1

01:15:03

John 4, verse 1, and here's what it says. Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

01:15:17

And so, in this command, we actually see a command by God, the Holy Spirit through the

01:15:22

Apostle John, telling us that we are commanded by God not to believe every spirit, but we are to test the spirits and here's the test, to see if whether they are from God.

01:15:35

And the reason for this is because many false prophets have already been sent out into the world.

01:15:41

In other words, the test of whether or not somebody is a true prophet or false prophet is going to be a biblical test and the determination has to be, is the spirit behind this the true

01:15:53

God of the Bible or a different spirit, a man -made, human spirit, human imaginations or whatever, or the demonic?

01:16:03

And so, when it comes to testing then, we have to determine the origin.

01:16:10

And so, for the remnant radio guys and for the you know, the prophetic standard statement to say that God, you know, it's, they reject that God speaks inerrantly, what they're doing is cutting people off from the actual

01:16:26

New Testament test that if you fail, you are considered, according to 1

01:16:32

John 4, 1, a false prophet. And so, when they say that God can speak errantly and that's the flip of what they're saying, because here's our context.

01:16:43

The reason why the standard statement is out there is because of what? All the people out there who claim to be prophets today who said

01:16:51

Trump was going to win in November of 2020 and he didn't.

01:16:57

And then they doubled down and said that Trump's going to be inaugurated, not Biden, and Biden was inaugurated and he's the president.

01:17:06

He has been president since you know, third week of January of this year. And so, you know, they've got egg on their face in a big way.

01:17:16

But scripture makes it clear in Deuteronomy 18 that how do

01:17:21

I know a word that the Lord has not spoken? It's very clear that if a prophet says something in the name of the

01:17:28

Lord that doesn't take place, that is the word that the Lord has not spoken. So, the big issue here with the prophetic standard statement and the remnant radio guys that I have is that they are refusing to apply one of the biblical tests for determining whether or not

01:17:48

God is speaking to somebody and as a result of it creating a pretense that we are not allowed in scripture.

01:17:57

You know, at the end of the day, so I declared Troy Black to be a false prophet because according to Deuteronomy 18, he said that this was going to happen and it didn't happen.

01:18:09

So, I know definitively that the issue is not that he heard from God and then misinterpreted it.

01:18:21

Right. Right. No, I mean, it's clear that if a prophet prophesies something that does not come to pass, he or she is a false prophet.

01:18:31

Period. And 1 John 4 .1 says that. Exactly does.

01:18:37

Exactly does. 1 John 4 .1 says that explicitly. And it is a,

01:18:43

I cannot for the life of me figure out how, what is the mechanism for which charismatics allow for fallible prophets today?

01:18:55

How is, I think I brought this point up to you before. How is it that in the New Testament, everything is better?

01:19:03

Jesus offers, he is our better high priest. He has offered a better sacrifice.

01:19:09

He has a better name. He has instituted a better covenant. Everything in the New Testament is better except apparently prophecy.

01:19:17

Prophecy tanked. Prophecy is just in the toilet. How does that work?

01:19:23

It makes absolutely no sense. And they are creating, Chris, out of whole cloth, a completely different standard for what a false prophet is.

01:19:33

An unbiblical standard. They are creating a standard after their own imagination, not from the text.

01:19:42

The text is clear. Now, and I've heard some charismatics push back and they say, well, it doesn't mean that prophets could never make a mistake.

01:19:51

Well, okay, in the sense that, say, for example, if Jeremiah one morning said to a friend of his that he was talking to, you know,

01:20:01

I think it's going to rain today and it doesn't rain that day, that doesn't make

01:20:06

Jeremiah a false prophet. Now, if he had said the Lord, thus saith the

01:20:12

Lord, it's going to rain today and it didn't rain that day, that would be a different story. So we're not saying that the prophets were as human beings were without mistakes or without sin.

01:20:24

But when they prophesied, thus saith the Lord, when they spoke for God, they did so with 100 % accuracy,

01:20:33

Old and New Testament prophets. Petey - Yeah, that's absolutely true. And we even have an example of what you're describing in the

01:20:41

Old Testament. When David wanted to build God a temple, you know, he told his desire to Nathan the prophet and Nathan said, do whatever what's in your heart.

01:20:51

And he thought that was legitimately what God would have him do. And, you know, and no sooner,

01:20:56

I mean, no sooner did Nathan get out the door when God said, go back, you know, and so Nathan, yeah, so, and so the word of the

01:21:05

Lord was, you know, would you build me a temple? You know, and he basically said,

01:21:11

I'm going to build you a name. And there was this beautiful prophecy regarding Christ that then followed.

01:21:18

But Nathan, in his first inclination, he wasn't saying, thus saith the Lord. He was just basically saying, you know, it sounds like something that God would be for, go for it.

01:21:27

And then God said, nope, he ain't going to do it. You know? Petey - That's right. Exactly. Petey -

01:21:32

So there's, you know, there's an example of that. But again, the test according to the

01:21:37

New Testament is we have to determine the origin. And scripture forbids me from believing that somebody who prophesies the future and it doesn't come true, that the origin was

01:21:51

God Himself, that I'm cut off from that by 1 John 4, 1, but also other passages.

01:21:58

This would include Proverbs 30, verse 5, every word of God proves true.

01:22:05

Isaiah 55, which says that God's word always accomplishes that for which he sends it.

01:22:11

It never returns to him void. God is not a liar. So, let me ask you another question then.

01:22:18

You know, we differ on the numbering of the commandments, but both of us have as part of the

01:22:23

Ten Commandments, the commandment that says, thou shalt not take the name of the Lord your

01:22:28

God in vain. I'm just going to ask you straight up, what does it mean to take

01:22:33

God's name in vain? Petey - Well, it means a lot more than just saying

01:22:39

OMG. Petey - OMG? It means a lot more than just using the

01:22:45

Lord's name as a curse word. That's what most people think of. But when you look at that in the Hebrew, blaspheming the name of God, taking the

01:22:53

Lord's name in vain can be in word and in deed. We take the

01:23:00

Lord's name in vain every time we profess to be Christians, but we act in a

01:23:06

Christ dishonoring way. We bring reproach on His name. We are taking His name in vain. And also, when you look at that in the

01:23:13

Hebrew, taking His name in vain, the sense is you bring it to no effect.

01:23:19

It is in vain and empty. So, when you prophesy something, claim that you are speaking for God, putting words in His mouth that He did not say, then you are taking

01:23:33

His name in vain. You are bringing His words to no effect, basically.

01:23:40

So, it is all of that. Yes, it includes OMG, but it's a lot, a lot more than that.

01:23:48

Petey - So, I mean, in our small catechism as Lutherans, the way I teach my youth, to take

01:23:53

God's name in vain is to lie and deceive by His name or use satanic art or witchcraft or other things that basically, if you were to think of God's name as a logo, you know, like the

01:24:07

Nike logo or, you know, think of the McDonald's logo or whatever, you know, to take that and then in the name of that company, just besmirch them and tell lies about them as if somehow you're a representative of that company.

01:24:21

That's kind of the idea. God's name is the ultimate logo and you can't slap it on a false prophecy and do so guiltlessly.

01:24:31

It is a forgivable sin to blaspheme God in this way, but it is blasphemy.

01:24:38

Darrell Bock It is blasphemy. It is absolutely blasphemy, Chris. And one of the points

01:24:43

I made in a fairly recent video I did a month or so ago, I think the title of it is The Problem with the

01:24:49

Charismatic Movement in a Nutshell. And I played a video of Mario Murillo, and he was talking about the, you know, the

01:24:59

Donald Trump prophecies and all that, of course, that didn't happen, didn't come true. And he said, that's not the serious issue.

01:25:06

That's not the main issue. It's not not the main issue, he said, is not whether or not the prophets got it wrong.

01:25:11

The main issue is that an election has been stolen. And of course, his, you know, he believes that the election was stolen with all the voter fraud and all that kind of stuff, which is neither here nor there.

01:25:24

But and when I heard him say that, I thought, that's it. That's the problem with the charismatic movement in a nutshell, because for him, the serious issue here is not that they have put words in God's mouth that he did not say.

01:25:40

That's not the serious issue. The serious issue is not the incalculable reproach and embarrassment that they have brought to the name of Christ.

01:25:49

The serious issue is who's occupying 1611 Pennsylvania Avenue. That's the serious issue.

01:25:56

And that is just, I thought, that right there, that shows you what's wrong with the charismatic movement, is they really do not take putting words in God's mouth that he did not say seriously.

01:26:09

Right. And then to say, to deny that God can, you know, that God speaks inerrantly today, as Jim Osmond on your video pointed out, the deity that they're professing then is either a liar or he's not omniscient.

01:26:25

That's right. You know, this sounds like the God of open theism, you know, he'd be caught by surprise by the events that go on in the world.

01:26:35

Yep. Yep. When you take what they have written in this statement at face value, and I would assume that that is how they wanted it to be taken at face value, then it's heretical.

01:26:46

It is a different God. Yeah. It is. I mean, a God who speaks errantly is not the

01:26:52

God of the Bible. It's just not. I completely agree with you.

01:26:58

And two, Chris, on the same number, 21, that we reject, it goes on to say, it is the written word alone that can lay claim to being the word of God.

01:27:11

Prophecies at best are a word from the Lord to be tested by the word of God.

01:27:17

That is so utterly incomprehensible. That is nonsensical.

01:27:24

The word of God is different from a word from the Lord. Huh? Yeah, again, this comes back to the test from 1

01:27:34

John 4, and that is that we have to determine whether or not the word is from God.

01:27:40

And then if it is from God, then it has authority, and it's not wrong. It doesn't err.

01:27:47

Now, that doesn't mean if there was a true prophecy today, you tack it onto the back of your

01:27:53

Bible. I think that's kind of the gist of what they're getting at. And by the way,

01:27:58

Lutherans, we're not strict cessationists. We are cessationists with always an asterisk, and that is that we still believe

01:28:07

God heals, and miraculously. So, I personally have prayed for people who have received miraculous healings, and I have the medical documentation to prove it.

01:28:19

So, I don't believe anybody has the gift of healing today, but I believe that God heals.

01:28:25

And Lutherans still believe that God, if He wants to, can speak.

01:28:31

But if He does, if somebody claims that He's talking, then everything gets to be tested according to Biblical standards.

01:28:38

And if the prophecy or the prophet doesn't hold up, then you reject them. 15

01:28:44

Yeah. Well, I'm a cessationist, as you know, and I also believe that God can heal today.

01:28:52

I don't doubt that He does, but that's not the same thing as saying someone has the gift of healing.

01:28:58

So, I am a cessationist who believes that God, when it is His sovereign will to do so, grants healing.

01:29:04

It's not common. It's not a regular thing, but He certainly can do it.

01:29:11

Now, as far as, now, I would say, okay, I'm gonna have to be careful here, a little nuanced, but I believe that God certainly could speak today.

01:29:21

But that's for me, in the sense that He has the ability, He has the power to do so.

01:29:27

But where I would draw the line is, is I do not believe that He is. God could speak to me, as Jim Osmond has said, through a leprechaun in my refrigerator, if He wanted to.

01:29:39

But I've got no reason to think that He will, and a lot of reasons to think that He's not.

01:29:44

So, it's not a matter of His ability, it's whether or not He is, and I would say no. Yeah. So, yeah.

01:29:50

And so, Lutherans, you know, we basically, you know, one of the things that we Lutherans hang on to is this idea, we're not strict cessationists, so if God wants to speak,

01:29:59

He can. And then we look through, you know, Christian history, and we've noted that in those potential places where it appears that God could be speaking, you never put an exclamation point on and say

01:30:15

He definitively spoke. So, for instance, so if you remember, John Huss, the guy who preceded

01:30:22

Luther, he was one of the earliest reformers, and unfortunately for him, he lived a hundred years before the printing press.

01:30:29

And so, as a result of that, when he taught salvation by grace through faith apart from works, they burned him at the stake.

01:30:37

And in something that he wrote the day that he was executed, he said, today you burn a goose, but in a hundred years there'll be a swan that you will neither be able to boil or roast.

01:30:51

And so, you know, even the Ligonier guys point out that, you know, potentially this could be a word from God, potentially, because,

01:30:58

I mean, he nailed it, you know, and if it was from God, it was pointing to Luther, but, you know, it just doesn't have the gravitas behind it.

01:31:07

And there's some reasons to believe that some of the mythos that's risen around that particular statement of Huss, it kind of undermines whether or not it was a real prophecy.

01:31:18

And then I always find it fascinating when guys like to zing Phil Johnson, who's a

01:31:23

Spurgeon guy. And, you know, there's an account of Spurgeon and one particular, you know, it was after one particular sermon, there was a fellow in his congregation and he laid into him with knowledge that he only could have received from God directly because it was like he was reading the guy's mail and say, see, see, even

01:31:44

Spurgeon wasn't a cessationist. But, you know, I look at something like that and go, you know, that's not the same thing as saying, thus sayeth the

01:31:53

Lord, you know, there's going to be a storm in Anchorage, Alaska in May of 2021, or that Trump's going to be the going to be the president in November of 2020.

01:32:05

You see what I'm saying there? Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I was at the conference that Phil did at Kootenai Community Church on Spurgeon.

01:32:12

He actually mentioned that incident and Phil would, if he were with us right now, he would say that that was not a thus sayeth the

01:32:22

Lord thing. It was an unusual kind of incident, but by no means can you use it for evidence that God is still speaking in a direct quotable sense outside of Scripture.

01:32:32

It was a providence of God in some way, but not God speaking directly outside of Scripture.

01:32:38

And one of the points I make, Chris, when I teach on this subject of how God does and does not speak today, if you have to wonder whether or not

01:32:49

God spoke to you, He didn't. If you have to wonder whether or not

01:32:54

God spoke to you, He didn't. You never see anyone in the Bible, Old or New Testament, saying anything like what you hear

01:33:02

Charismatic say today, well, I really feel like the Lord is trying to tell us, said nobody in the

01:33:07

Bible ever. Chris Right. Yeah. In fact, the other bit is that, you know, I think we completely underestimate the devil's ability to deceive via false dreams and visions.

01:33:19

And one of the things I tell people about from time to time, I don't know if you're familiar with the story, but you remember when

01:33:27

Pope Benedict retired and stepped down and they were, the Roman Catholic Church was choosing who the next

01:33:33

Pope was going to be. The weirdest thing happened to me. So I remember it vividly.

01:33:40

My wife will verify it. My son will verify it. He was living with us at the time. That what happened is, is that 6 a .m.

01:33:47

in the morning, the day that they announced the new Pope, I, you know, right before I woke up,

01:33:53

I had the most vivid dream I've ever had in my entire life. I mean, it was lucid.

01:34:00

I knew what was going on and the details of it were vivid, stark, and very colorful.

01:34:06

And in my vision, I was in the city of Rome, wandering the streets. And I was so,

01:34:12

I knew exactly where I was because I recognized some of the monuments and I was freaking out because I thought, man, if my wife were to look on her cell phone and look at the

01:34:21

GPS thing to figure out where I'm at, she'd freak because I'm in Rome. That's how vivid this was. And I remember walking in a back alley to the kind of the back entrance of the

01:34:31

Sistine Chapel. And there was these green double doors and I opened them up and there was stairs ascending and descending and down the stairs came one of the

01:34:41

Cardinals. And he says, they've, they've, they've chosen the new Pope. I said, really? What's, what's the name he's going to take for himself?

01:34:47

And he said, he's going to, he's taken the name of Francis. And I thought that was weird. And then I woke up.

01:34:53

So, my wife was up before me and so she was getting ready for the day. I said, hey, hey, babe,

01:34:58

I just had the weirdest dream. I got to tell it to you. So, I told it to her and she says, that's weird.

01:35:04

So, I got up and I, and I actually went on the internet and said, was there ever a Pope Francis?

01:35:10

You know, I was Googling it and I almost put out on Twitter, I had the weirdest dream. And had

01:35:16

I done that, I would have announced the name of the Pope eight to nine hours before it was, it was announced and boy, it would have been an interesting thing.

01:35:25

But here's the thing, the whole time I was sitting there going, what was that?

01:35:32

Where did it come from? And I could not, for the life of me, shake the absolute uncertainty

01:35:39

I had as to the origin of this dream, no matter how vivid it was. So, then at three o 'clock in the afternoon that day, that same day, you know, they announced that they had chosen the

01:35:50

Pope and they were going to announce it on, you know, on international television. So, turned into Fox News and was watching the announcement and out came the spokeswoman for, you know, who, you know, the

01:36:02

Roman Catholic Church who announced that they have chosen the new Pope, he's taken the name of Francis, she said, and I dropped my drink and went, what?

01:36:10

And my wife said, what did they say? What did they say? And so, I'm thinking, okay,

01:36:16

I was really scratching my head at this point. And here's the issue, at no point did I ever have any assurance that this was from God.

01:36:25

And it was a neat little parlor trick that I knew the name of the Pope nine hours before they announced it, but the whole experience proved to be nothing but temptation for me.

01:36:37

And so, I remained silent about it, didn't say anything about it on social media, and then later said, you know what?

01:36:45

It's a neat trick, but I have no reason to believe it's from God because it doesn't build up the body of Christ, it doesn't serve any function or anything like that.

01:36:56

So, I dismissed it as basically a demonic temptation. And I tell people to this day, if I'm standing before Christ on the

01:37:03

Day of Judgment and go, why didn't you believe that prophecy was from me regarding Pope Francis? I would have said, because there was no return address on the prophecy.

01:37:14

You know, I had no way of knowing it was from God. And so, that's the thing, is because I couldn't determine its origin,

01:37:24

I couldn't, there was no way that that could be from God. Right, exactly.

01:37:30

And if it had been from God, there would have been no doubt as to, I mean, look through the

01:37:35

Bible. The Word of the Lord came to Abram, the Word of the Lord came to Jeremiah, the

01:37:41

Word of the Lord came to Isaiah, the Word of the Lord came to Jeremiah. There was no confusion as to the source of a genuine prophecy.

01:37:51

Right, and you think of Ananias when, you know, when Paul was knocked off his horse on the way to Damascus, and it basically says that Jesus spoke to him, and his immediate response was, yes,

01:38:02

Lord. He knew exactly who was talking to him, and then he said, I have heard of this man.

01:38:08

And there was no doubt that Jesus was talking to him.

01:38:15

No, no doubt. And when the Holy Spirit spoke in the New Testament, it was crystal clear, set apart for me

01:38:22

Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them. There's nothing unclear about that, there's nothing ephemeral, there's nothing fuzzy about that.

01:38:30

It's crystal clear. Yeah, and Agabus didn't say, I feel like the Lord is saying you might be in a little bit of danger if you go to Jerusalem, you know?

01:38:37

Yeah, no, we're not talking Jennifer LeClaire kind of prophecies here.

01:38:43

Yeah, no, you're right. You're right. So let me wrap up our conversation because I didn't want to take up too much of your time, but actually kind of two things real quick.

01:38:56

And that is that one of the claims of the Remnant radio guys is that if I keep on the path that I'm on,

01:39:02

I'm going to end up believing that I'm the only one right, and that everybody else is wrong, kind of this narrow, narrow, narrow, narrow.

01:39:11

Just so that people know, for the record, you're not a confessional

01:39:16

Lutheran, are you? No, I'm not. I'm not. No, you and I differ on a couple of theological points.

01:39:25

Right, and here's the thing, we do so amicably. I've never anathematized you, and so you and I, we recognize that we're both believers and we are both working kind of the same part of the vineyard, the discernment area, dealing with the schlock.

01:39:44

But I don't go after you, and it was funny when I had Phil Johnson on, he says,

01:39:49

I don't have a Lutheran bone in my body, and I said, I'd make a terrible Baptist. But we represent kind of the idea that when it comes to particular doctrines, we recognize that there are differences in the body of Christ.

01:40:09

It's not that they don't matter, it's just that they don't put somebody outside of the body of Christ. So the idea then is on the non -negotiable doctrines, we're united.

01:40:21

On secondary and tertiary issues, there's certain things that we disagree on, on how to understand the biblical text.

01:40:29

But when I've been with you, I haven't tried to convert you to Lutheranism too hard, have

01:40:34

I? No, not too hard and not too successful either. I thought it was hilarious when we were at one of those conferences in Montana and Voddie Bauckham was there.

01:40:50

I got to sit across from Voddie and we had a great conversation about baptism. And when

01:40:56

I told him how we Lutherans baptize, he said to me, well, isn't that cute?

01:41:02

Isn't that cute? That sounds like Voddie. Yeah. So, you know, we had a great brotherly conversation.

01:41:10

And so, we recognize that we have differences and the reality is this, I haven't changed, that my standard hasn't shifted or moved at all.

01:41:21

And that being the case, one of their complaints was that somehow

01:41:27

I'm defacing people or I'm defacing the image of God when we put together our thumbnails.

01:41:34

And we always depict the heretics kind of in a warped fashion. And my thinking behind this is that in one of the epistles,

01:41:43

Paul talks about those who cause divisions, that after you've warned them, just don't have anything to do with them because they're warped in their mind.

01:41:51

And so, we generally warp heretics or false teachers to the degree that they warp the scriptures.

01:41:58

And one of the things I was really kind of weird, I thought was weird, is that they were more incensed about the fact that our thumbnails warp these false teachers than the fact that these people warp the scriptures.

01:42:14

Right. Right. Exactly, Chris. And I can't tell you how many times I've thought that same thing and when people attack me, oh, you're touching the

01:42:22

Lord's anointed, you're, you know, blah, blah, whatever. They are far more exercised and worked up about me criticizing these blatant false teachers than they are about the incalculable reproach that they are bringing upon the name of Christ.

01:42:42

That concerns them far less what they're doing to Christ, what they're doing to the gospel, the laughing stock that they are making out of all

01:42:51

Christians in the eyes of the world. That doesn't seem to bother them one percent as much as it does.

01:42:59

The fact that you and I and others point out this clear error, unmistakable error.

01:43:08

They're far more worried about us saying something untoward, one of these wolves, than they are the reproach that these wolves bring upon the name of Christ.

01:43:19

And that is some very skewed priorities right there. Right. And then

01:43:25

I would note that, you know, you've made the point, I've made the point that the COVID pandemic, whether you believe it was real or not,

01:43:34

I'm not into the politics of this. The one thing is absolutely certain is that none of today's so -called prophets saw this thing coming.

01:43:43

Not a one. When it showed up, some of them actually prophesied that it wouldn't turn into a pandemic,

01:43:50

Sean Bowles, and it did. And then some of them even prophesied that the thing would be over by Passover of 2020, and it wasn't.

01:44:02

And then, you know, these same people prophesied that Trump would win the election, and he didn't.

01:44:09

And that he would be inaugurated, and he wasn't. And here's the thing, Scripture commands us to test, to determine whether or not a prophecy, the spirit behind it, is

01:44:22

God, a human spirit, or a demonic spirit. And I can definitively say that all of the prophets out there claiming to be prophets and acting in a prophetic way, or having prophetic ministries, that according to the biblical standards, we can rule out definitively that God is the one behind their prophecies.

01:44:43

Have I strayed from what the Bible's standard is here in saying that?

01:44:49

No, absolutely not. No, they're the ones who are straying from the biblical standard of what a true prophet and a false prophet is.

01:44:57

I mean, you almost have to wonder, in their diluted understanding of what a false prophet is, who would qualify to be a false prophet in their view?

01:45:10

I mean, honestly, I mean, who would? Yeah, yeah. And so, no, you haven't strayed at all.

01:45:16

These false prophecies that all of them have uttered over the—and we're just talking about the last year.

01:45:25

I mean, this has been going on for decades in this movement. But clearly, these words from the

01:45:32

Lord are not from the Lord. They're clearly not of God. So, that leaves you with only two other options.

01:45:38

They are either intentionally deceiving you. It's just a product of their own vain imagination.

01:45:46

And I suppose you could say, well, maybe they think it's from God. It's really not. But it's either a product of their own imagination, or it's demonic.

01:45:55

It's either—it's not coming from God, so it must either be coming from themselves or from Satan.

01:46:03

And neither of those other two options is a good one. Yeah, no, I completely agree.

01:46:09

In fact, that's kind of the whole point of Jeremiah 14, 14, as well as Jeremiah 23, that God says

01:46:16

He's against the prophets who speak in His name the vain imaginations of their heart.

01:46:23

And since Scripture is clear that when somebody prophesies something that contradicts Scripture, that's not

01:46:29

God. That when somebody prophesies something that adds to Scripture, that's not God.

01:46:35

And that when somebody prophesies future events that don't take place, that wasn't God who was speaking to them either.

01:46:42

And that being the case, 1 John 4, 1 makes it clear that they are a false prophet because the

01:46:49

Spirit behind their prophecies isn't God. It's not of God. That's right.

01:46:55

It's not of God. And, you know, there, as we were talking about a minute ago, there are any number of secondary issues that we can have in -house debate on, you know, baptism, eschatology, who wrote the book of Hebrews, things like that.

01:47:11

Yeah. You know, we can have some, you know, friendly intramural discussions and debate about things like that.

01:47:19

But something that you and I have never done, we have never said, thus saith the

01:47:25

Lord, when the Lord has not said that. We have never quoted

01:47:30

God as saying something that He has not said. We have never ascribed words to Him directly that He did not say.

01:47:38

And if we did, then our goose would be cooked. I mean, that's… If I did that, if I prophesied that Trump would win the 2020 election, if I prophesied that Anchorage would be hit by a major snowstorm in May of 2021, and those things didn't pan out, my church body would defrock me as a false prophet, and rightly so.

01:48:05

Yeah. Right. Right. Rightly so. My ministry would be over, and rightly so. Yeah.

01:48:11

And it just goes back to what I was saying a minute ago. They just don't take these things seriously. They don't take it seriously when they put words in God's mouth that He did not say.

01:48:21

Yep. Yep. And it is the sin of blasphemy. It is a forgivable sin. It absolutely is. And that is my major beef with the majority of the charismatic movement right now, is they have no fear of God when it comes to that commandment.

01:48:33

None. That's right. And they do not understand just how grievously they are taking

01:48:40

God's name and running it through the mud with their soothsaying that isn't even prophecy.

01:48:46

And so, I reject the idea that God, the Holy Spirit, was saying to the prophets, Biden's going to win.

01:48:53

Biden's going to win. Thank you, Lord. I declare that Trump's going to win. It doesn't make any sense.

01:48:59

You know? No, it doesn't. And when they try to create a difference between, and I'm looking at it right now, the word of God is different from a word from God.

01:49:15

They're trying to make a distinction without a difference. That is nonsensical. It's like saying, no, a hula hoop isn't round, it's circular.

01:49:25

You're saying the same thing. Yeah. I think what they're really trying to do is make room for their practice of cold reading.

01:49:34

So, they somehow think that they have to cultivate an environment where people can start to practice stretching out with their prophetic voice.

01:49:44

And so, somebody is going to sit there and go, you know, I get this impression. And that's the other thing is that they claim

01:49:51

Wayne Grudem's definition of prophecy is based on impressions. Like, what? Anyway, so I've got this impression, and Justin, this impression, does the name

01:50:01

Abigail mean anything to you? You know, it's just nonsense, right? This is an old parlor trick, okay?

01:50:07

And so, they believe that somehow you have to tap into God is speaking and you've got to learn how to hear his voice.

01:50:15

And so, when you're doing that, you may be awful at it at first. I think of how Bethel teaches it, they send their

01:50:21

Hogwarts students out into Redding, California, and there's some lady at the grocery store trying to buy some carrots, and somebody says, oh,

01:50:30

I get this impression that, and they're practicing, right? And so,

01:50:35

I think what they're trying to do is basically salvage this practice, but the problem is, is that that's not what it means to hear from God.

01:50:50

Petey Right. No. No, there's no difference between what Todd White, and speaking of Todd White, why didn't the

01:50:56

Remnant Radio guys ask him about his leg lengthening stick? Jared Well, they did. They ended up talking about leg lengthening, and they basically, the best way

01:51:06

I can put it is they demurred. They basically said, well, you know, it's a divisive practice, we probably shouldn't be doing it, but we can't definitively say that's not from God.

01:51:16

Yeah, we can. Petey Yeah, we can. Yeah. It's a parlor trick that Charlatans have been doing for decades.

01:51:23

Jared Exactly, yeah. Petey Yeah. But I think I lost my train of thought.

01:51:28

Jared It got derailed. Petey Oh, there's no difference between, you know, Todd White going up to people at random on the street, getting words of knowledge, oh, you know, like I saw one recently, he was talking with a waitress at some restaurant.

01:51:43

The Lord tells me that you really like to work with children. You know, you want to work with children. And there's no difference between that and what, you know, that old fake psychic

01:51:56

Sylvia Brown or whatever, psychics on TV. It's the same thing.

01:52:02

Jared Yeah, it's the same technique. This is a mentalist, you know, magician technique. And, you know, as a means of cold reading, you kind of, you put something out there, and you watch very intently what somebody's response is.

01:52:16

And if you get a hit, then, you know, there's certain ways you can move forward in certain ways in which the probabilities of you getting something accurate on the second try using the hit, you know, it's a mentalist thing.

01:52:29

That's not prophecy. That's not God speaking. So, but that's a whole other topic.

01:52:35

That's a whole other fighting for the faith episode. Right. So, Justin, thank you for your willingness to come on in my response video.

01:52:44

And I really do believe that your contribution will be significant. Because the reality is this, my standard hasn't changed.

01:52:50

The biblical standard hasn't changed. And Scripture is clear. When somebody says something is going to happen, and it doesn't happen, the

01:52:58

Bible explicitly says that it was not God who said those things. And to go against that standard, that's so clearly laid out by obfuscation, by claiming, well, that only applies to covenantal mediators or weird things like this.

01:53:13

The text actually says prophet. You know, it's very clear. And the standard in the

01:53:18

New Testament, in 1 John 4, 1, is we have to test the spirits to see whether they are from God.

01:53:27

And the reason for that is because many false prophets have gone out in the world. If you fail the test and the prophecy isn't from God, you're a false prophet.

01:53:34

That's exactly what 1 John 4, 1 says and teaches. So, I appreciate you allowing me to spitball this with you so that people don't think

01:53:42

I'm out there on some kind of a limb all by myself and, you know, far from it.

01:53:48

So, all right. No, I've enjoyed it, Chris. Thank you. All right. Peace, brother, and Lord willing, we'll see you next time.

01:53:55

Look forward to having you back on. Okay. Sounds good. See you, brother. So, hopefully you found this video helpful.

01:54:01

If so, all the information on how you can share the video is down below. I look forward to having a private conversation with the

01:54:07

Remnant Radio guys. I'll probably reach out to them sometime in the next day or two. And maybe we can have a productive conversation.

01:54:15

This will stand as my rebuttal. And hopefully they recognize the error of their ways.

01:54:20

And here's the thing. By their false teaching that people can err when they give a prophecy and that doesn't make them a false prophet, the irony here is, despite the fact that they're reading the

01:54:34

Kingdom of the Cults, right now the charismatic movement, by their refusal to abide by the biblical standard for testing a prophet or an alleged prophecy, and recognizing that when somebody gives an inaccurate prophecy, that makes them a false prophet because those words are not from God, that what, in fact, the charismatic movement has done has become cancerous and it has become a creator, a factory for creating real cult leaders and folks that are absolute abject heretics.

01:55:05

And they all need to repent and recognize the seriousness of the sin to take

01:55:11

God's name in vain and ascribe to God words that He has not given them to speak.

01:55:17

So, like I said, hopefully you found this helpful. If so, all the information on how to share the video is down below. And until next time, may

01:55:23

God richly bless you in the grace and mercy won by Jesus Christ, His vicarious death on the cross for all of your sins.