More Black Hebrew Israelites Exposed!

Apologia Studios

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:19

All right guys, we're back for the after show right now, doing our show, our after show on the

00:25

Hebrew Israelite movement, sometimes known as the Black Hebrew Israelites. If you caught the television show, we're gonna pick up right now right where we left off.

00:35

And so if you didn't see that yet, make sure you go check that out, gives you a fuller context. And now we're gonna do some more detailed examinations.

00:42

So, vocab is gonna kind of walk us through maybe some more of the history, the theology. But before we do that, let's get a little more of a sampling of what some of these guys are like.

00:53

Can I walk up the video? Yes. Sure. All right. So you're about to watch a video from a man named General Yohanna.

00:59

He has been in this truth for, I think, three decades. That's how they refer to someone who's been awakened.

01:05

They'll say been in this or been in the truth. And General Yohanna is the commanding officer over ISU -PK.

01:14

ISU -PK started in Harlem in 1969. It stands for the Israelite School of Universal Practical Knowledge.

01:22

ISU -PK claims to be the only camp that Yahweh is, quote, dealing with. So they're actually very exclusive, making them not very many friends among other camps because they claim to be the only true camp.

01:34

They do have somewhat of a pedigree though, in that in 1969, they really were the first modern version of Hebrew Israelite movement to come out.

01:43

And all the other camps that have come out have in some way come out of ISU -PK.

01:49

So General Yohanna is in this clip speaking about the advantages of polygamy because most

01:55

Hebrew Israelites believe polygamy is part of what will be in the new heaven or new earth in the

02:00

Messianic kingdom. And some believe you should practice it now. And so he's gonna talk about how great polygamy is.

02:07

Go ahead. Two women are dead after a high -speed chase that started inside the state of Georgia and crossed into Alabama.

02:15

What you black women so mad about when you did not protest against same -sex marriage?

02:21

Right. That's right. You didn't protest against same -sex marriage. Why are you mad now? Because a man wanna have more than one woman.

02:29

And let me tell you something, it is one of the best ways to rebuild this nation. That's right.

02:34

And it's one of the best ways for a black man to learn how to be a leader.

02:40

You got more than one woman, you got to really learn skillfully how to deal with these women. And it is educational and empowering and strengthening to a black man.

02:51

Right. Now don't go out and do it unlawfully. Don't learn how to be with more than one woman from anywhere but the

02:58

UPK. Now if you go and do that and it gets screwed up, don't blame us. Right, that's right.

03:05

I ain't telling everybody to go get more than one woman. I'm saying in the UPK, you can learn how to have more than one woman and it's a great benefit.

03:14

That's right. And it's a great benefit. And here's another reason it's a great benefit.

03:19

Because that witchcraft that's on these black women, turn on basketball, why?

03:25

Derrick, do you want me to stop? Yeah, I'm out of there. Okay, we'll stop with the basketball. I'm out of there. This is fascinating. This is really fascinating.

03:31

So again, so even in that clip. You got to learn to deal with these women. This gonna teach you how to. You hear in that clip, the exclusivity the

03:39

ISUPK specifically has and everything else to them is fraudulent.

03:46

And they're of course, they're advocating polygamy, but you can't do it unlawfully. But it's interesting.

03:53

Now what an interesting application to this because did you hear what he said?

03:59

It's one of the best ways to rebuild this nation. So they view themselves in a nation rebuilding process.

04:06

The Hebrew Israelites as a people have been demolished. And it's interesting, a big way that they explain what has happened to black

04:14

Americans and folks over here in the Western hemisphere from the slave trade is as a result of them experiencing the curses of Deuteronomy 28.

04:25

Deuteronomy 28 is the key passage and their interpretive framework because they interpret everything that is described as a curse to them.

04:35

And they'll say, look how this is fulfilled among our people. This is fulfilled. And so it's actually has a little bit of a theodicy to it, meaning explaining evil or suffering in their case by saying we've been rebellious and sinners.

04:48

And that's why all these things have justly happened to us. But now you can't stop this movement.

04:53

The truth is coming out. We're gonna rebuild the nation according to God's holy laws. And so to them, this is an answer to problems in the black community as well.

05:01

They'll say, you have this problem, you have this problem, you have this problem. Not so if you followed these laws.

05:06

And so they want to rebuild the nation. That's why he's General Yohanna because it's a nation building.

05:14

And that's why he speaks about polygamy as a good way to do that. So there's a logical connection in their mind to these things.

05:21

Okay. Go ahead. I got two questions. One, right before we started the segment, you said that they also think

05:29

King James is black. Are they KJV -onlius? The ones who are messianic are.

05:35

Okay. So there's different types of Israelites. There's ones who are, call themselves messianic

05:40

Israelites. And that's almost all the groups I've mentioned in some way would technically be considered messianic.

05:46

All that simply means is they accept the fact that Jesus is the Christ. Now, most of the camps, if they hear this, will say that Edomite doesn't know what he's talking about.

05:54

He just said, J. There's no J in Hebrew. So they're very anti -Jesus. You can't say the word

06:00

Jesus. There's a camp that says it's okay, I -U -I -C, and all the camps make fun of them because they say Jesus is okay.

06:05

Anyways, so if you accept Jesus as the Messiah, you're messianic. If you don't, you're Tanakh -onli.

06:11

Now, I haven't dealt with any of them yet. I've only heard about them and heard some of their teachings. They're more like, it's more like what you think of Judaism as a little bit, more so, because they don't accept that.

06:23

And the weirdest thing is a lot of them say Joshua. Joshua was the

06:28

Messiah. They'll say he's the one who fills a prophet like unto Moses. But with all that being said, the ones that are are

06:35

KJV only. With the Apocrypha though, with the Apocrypha. And then you say, well, hold up. You know,

06:40

King James of Scotland, I think was an Edomite by your standards.

06:46

Well, no, the history has been whitewashed. Look at this picture on the internet. Oh my gosh, King James was black.

06:52

I mean, that's kind of how it goes. So King James was a black King of Scotland. Oh, really? Yeah. It's like that.

06:59

The proof is all there. You got to do your research. Look at this meme. Google it. So my next question then.

07:05

When they say do research, they mean read Hebrews like websites. They don't actually mean do research. So does this group exist outside of our nation?

07:14

Because yes. In the UK and especially Jamaica, West Indies, Virgin Islands, St.

07:20

Thomas. Yes. So, but they have to be someone that came to one of those places through the slave trade.

07:26

Is that what we're getting at? There's a meme. Do you guys have PG -13 words on the after show?

07:32

How do you guys do that? Yeah. There's a meme that says, Do you have PG -13 words? To me, this is the best meme that actually describes a theology better than anything

07:40

I've ever seen. If you have kids, mute it, get them away. It's a mild one, but still. It says, did yo ass come over here on a ship?

07:48

Question mark on the top, on the bottom. Then yo ass is an Israelite. So if you came over on a ship, then you're a

07:57

Israelite. However, most of them will say, there's probably still some Israelites left in Africa.

08:04

But some of them say no, because Esau was so crafty. That's their favorite adjective for white people, crafty.

08:11

Esau was so crafty, he knew who he was gonna get. So in essence, being sort of in league with God's enemies, they specifically targeted certain people to snatch out of Africa, the

08:23

Israelites. By ship, they mean slave ship though. Because technically, most of the people in our country came here from a ship.

08:32

Well, yeah, so they mean slave ship. So just one little verse, because this will help you understand what they're saying.

08:38

Deuteronomy 28, 68. And the Lord will bring you back in ships to Egypt, a journey that I promise that you should never make again.

08:48

And there you shall offer yourselves for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but there will be no buyer.

08:53

The Lord will bring you back in ships to Egypt. That's the key. And so you'll say, wait a minute,

09:00

Egypt? Well, yeah, Egypt is precept upon precept. Now, what's Egypt a sign of in the

09:06

Bible? Bondage of slavery. Where were we bonded in the Western hemisphere? So Egypt is slavery. So bring you back in the ships to slavery.

09:15

So the ships are little, Egypt is figurative. Interesting, interesting, fascinating.

09:20

Man, Esau is one hairy, crafty, devilish white man.

09:26

And what's weird is he's Jacob's twin brother, right? Have you ever thought about that?

09:32

Yeah. And so they would paint Jacob's black. Yeah, and so they love to show pictures of twins that came out in different colors.

09:37

Oh, I've seen those pictures. Yeah, which is a real thing, but that's like their thing, like, look, it still happens. It's pretty uncommon.

09:43

Yes, it is. However, there's a small group of Israelites. And the thing is, I haven't figured out their rationale yet.

09:49

There's a small group of Israelites who deny the Esau equals white man doctrine, but I think all the camps accept it.

09:57

Is there, actually, okay, that's a perfect segue. What are a few things that they all agree on?

10:03

Because it sounds like they're all a little bit different. The Israelites described in scripture are dark black skinned people.

10:16

Okay. That is like, and they ended up over here in the

10:22

Western hemisphere. That's the big thing. So the funny thing about it is, they act like they're

10:27

Sola Scriptura type people. Now, they don't use that terminology, but they act like you got to go to the scripture.

10:34

Even remember when, earlier, when we were talking about their justification for the 12 -year -old rape thing?

10:39

You got to go back to the scripture, the guy says. Well, so everything to them needs to be justified in the scripture.

10:45

But their main controlling narrative for how they view history is actually not scriptural, which, again, shows they're actually not really from the

10:55

Bible where they get their main controlling view of how they view things, which is interesting. It's from other sources, kind of a convoluted view of history.

11:04

But that's the big thing that they agree upon. I must tell you, I do not wish to fight you.

11:12

Violence is no longer in my nature, but if you want it, you got it, sister!

11:21

That's the white devil scene from Ace Ventura. That's the white devil scene.

11:28

I wonder what you were doing the last five minutes. You've been like, hmm. Yeah. Esau, look. It's interesting, by and large, in this -

11:35

I just looked up white devil on YouTube. That's what you found? Yeah, they say that this is the time of the

11:41

Gentiles, and so right now, because of Israel's sin, it has been given to Esau to have a dominion.

11:50

And so this is, in essence, Gentile heaven. So they don't actually believe in heaven and hell as we would understand heaven and hell, biblically.

11:58

It's sort of a condition that you're in. Right now is our heaven, if you're white, basically. And if you're

12:04

Israelite, it's hell. But when black Messiah comes back to put the boot upon the neck of the

12:09

Edomite, then it's kind of like, then it's black man's heaven at that point. So we have many 12 -year -old brides.

12:17

According to GMS, not according to all of them. But yes, and so it's very temporal as well.

12:23

You see how this all physical concerns, by and large. But they don't think they can do it themselves, is my point by saying that.

12:30

Most of them are into violent revolution. In fact, one group that I listen to regularly, it's kind of funny, they're like, man, don't you know how crafty

12:39

Esau is? He's been given the power of the sword during the time of the Gentiles. And he has weapons that can see you from space and zap you where you stand right now.

12:46

We can't fight that. It's gonna take the black Messiah. It's gonna take Yeshua to come back and take care of that type of thing.

12:53

So by and large, they're not about trying to do the whole violent thing. Now, they don't think it's possible. They think it's when he comes back.

13:00

So you mentioned 1969. Is that kind of the genesis of this movement? The modern version.

13:06

So if you go back to right after the civil war is when you see this first coming up.

13:13

So if you've ever listened to, studied the Negro spiritual songs, you hear a heavy identification with the slaves, with the people of Israel, which makes sense if you're enslaved, you say, yet God is on our side and can bring us redemption, right?

13:26

That's awesome. That's a powerful narrative. That's true. It's right there in the Bible. Well, some folks, basically this is my interpretation, started taking that literally.

13:36

So there's one guy, this is actually one of the guys who was one of the prominent first guys to do this, was in this field.

13:43

And he got a vision while working in this field right after the civil war was over, I think he was in Kansas, about who black

13:50

Americans really were. And it was Hebrew Israelites. So some little churches started popping up into various places like in Kansas and Philly and New York, like in the 1860s, 70s, 1880s, 1890s.

14:00

Then in the early 1900s in Harlem, especially in the 20s and 30s, you have sort of the second wave.

14:06

And those folks were mainly really working to be more Jewish looking. And so they would even go by rabbi and that type of thing.

14:14

But out of one of those congregation, a guy named Rabbi Matthew, my understanding is a bunch of people left and started this more militant kind of modern version we see now, which

14:24

I think is where ISUPK came from. But then out of ISUPK came a bunch of other camps.

14:30

And now the camps are the primary movers of these doctrines and stuff, but you'll find that there's a lot of lone wolf

14:35

Israelites, you know, who have, they pick and choose certain things and not really affiliated with the camp.

14:41

But I guarantee you the way they've discovered most of their information is like from a YouTube video or from some book recommended by a camp, even if they're not in the camp.

14:48

So did this in 69, was that about the time you were seeing Black Panthers? Yes, all this was going on at the same time.

14:55

Yeah, so there's an interesting interview with an elder who used to be, who was around then, and they interview him and he talks about that.

15:04

And actually in the late 60s, a group of folks from the South side of Chicago left

15:09

Chicago and moved to Israel. So right now there's a group, and they call themselves

15:15

African Israelites, but they're in Damona, Israel right now.

15:20

And there's approximately three to 5 ,000 of them. And they're not like the Ethiopian Jews who appear to actually have some

15:27

Semitic ancestry. They're these Hebrew Israelites who left from Chicago in the 60s, and they're a polygamous vegan sect living there in Damona, Israel.

15:37

But the Israelite government has actually recognized them. They've actually recognized them.

15:42

And then Amari Stoudemire actually funded a documentary DVD called

15:48

The Village of Peace. He's a basketball player, Jeff. Yes, so he used to play for Phoenix Suns, Amari Stoudemire, and he identifies as a

15:54

Hebrew Israelite. He even owns part of a team there in Israel. I did not know that. And he funded this DVD called The Village of Peace so you can watch about it.

16:00

And they're kind of more chill. They make their own clothes and do stuff. They're not really out street teaching and stuff.

16:06

But I mean, they're over there, and there's three to 5 ,000 of them, they say. Do you see any history of prophecy?

16:13

I would say they're out just preaching judgment upon us Edomites, but have there been instances of actual messiahs returning?

16:21

Some have made definite dates, but I'm still looking into some more information about who said what, when.

16:28

But I've run into a few examples of that. But the most guys you'll run into are more, the time is near, so they are apocalyptic.

16:38

And like, I saw this video where the guy was like, have you seen Independence Day? You know, the alien.

16:43

I saw that, it was the Sanford guys, right? Yeah, have you seen the aliens over there? Well, that's supposed to be us. Yeah, that's

16:48

Black Angels in there. The wheels, yeah. Yeah, there they come. And so most are like, yeah, from Ezekiel.

16:56

They do that thing too. Okay. So they are apocalyptic. It's going to happen soon.

17:02

So that same group, GMS, they have a little meme they've made that has like a clip of someone holding on to a fence.

17:07

And like, it looks like they're in a nuclear winter and their face is like melting off and their skin is turning red.

17:13

And it's like all going back. And it's like, hey white folks, this is your future. Yeah. That's what it means. And it's a meme.

17:20

I love when vocab talks about it, how excited he gets. And the funny thing is you can buy it.

17:26

You can buy that and you can have it as part of your startup kit because they sell TAMP startup kits.

17:33

And in these startup kits, they give you a certain amount of sandwich boards and posters. That's one of the ones you could enlarge and carry around.

17:39

It gives you a racial slur dictionary. I mean, there's like a bunch of different ones. When I first encountered them, they had

17:45

Barack Obama drawn like the Antichrist, like with horn. They're not cool with Obama. They are not Obama supporters.

17:51

Why is that? Do you know why? First of all, he's Kenyan. So remember there's an anti -African sentiment among a lot of these groups.

17:59

So they don't even consider him an Israelite. Like from my understanding, because of the Kenyan aspect. But I mean, he's in charge of this government.

18:07

But the weird thing is there's a Hebrews lawyer I just discovered that's running for election this year. Really? Yeah. A guy named

18:13

Yam I just encountered. I actually watched - It has candy? It's from a

18:18

Hebrew word. It has candy? His campaign slogan is no collusion 2016.

18:27

No collusion 2016. So he's not gonna cooperate with the evil powers. And I don't know if it's because of a real reason, but he actually does have an eye patch.

18:37

So when he's speaking, it really is a little bit like Nick Fury saying he's gonna run for president.

18:44

Because in the video, one of his main promises is that he's gonna go with the troops into battles and bring back the head of Syrian leaders.

18:52

So you can watch his video, it's on YouTube. And it's really interesting, but he's running for president. I tried to watch another one of his videos, but he was eating a sandwich the whole time.

18:59

So it was hard to pick out what he's saying. This is the craziest election year ever.

19:05

Yeah, but hey, Yam, Trump. You got Trump, Clinton, Yam. I don't know if we need to bleep it out, but it's really on the ballot.

19:14

These nuts. Gary Johnson Libertarian Party. Yeah, yeah. These are really, they're gonna be on the ballot.

19:22

Like, it's a real thing. It's actually happening in the world.

19:29

But if someone is like, okay, I got the basics, but this is the real side of it, because this is a harvest field.

19:36

And what's happening to the black church is they're losing young men who are energetic and zealous.

19:43

I was gonna ask you that. Left and right. Yes, God is sovereign, but I'm just telling you what. I see, and by and large, the traditional black church is not exactly aware of what's happening and don't seem to be marshaling the resources to combat it.

19:57

And so they're losing folks. And almost all these Hebrew Israelites I've met have some heavy exposure, usually to the black church.

20:03

In fact, one of the recurring themes you see in black Hebrew Israelites social media activity is mocking and calling out prosperity preachers.

20:14

Yeah. Which, so hey, we agree with that. We're cool with that. Yeah. And so there's that aspect there, and here they go.

20:22

They wanted robust doctrine. They wanted certain things they didn't see. They see it in the Hebrew Israelite movement.

20:28

And so they come with this, and all of a sudden they feel masculine. They feel real brotherhood. They feel like actual

20:33

Bible study. They feel like a serious call to action that matters in something. Yeah. Instead of, here's what they'll, they talk a lot about four offerings and what the pastor's driving and that type of stuff.

20:43

And so they, it's, that's a problem. And then sort of the white mainstream evangelical church, it's hard for them to realize this problem.

20:53

And often they don't care as much as they should. So I'll tell you about a real conversation I had.

20:58

I'm gonna not name anybody, but it was within a sister in Christ who had actually for years been involved with ministering to Muslims even.

21:08

But I told her what I was doing. And she's like, well, but you're not Jewish, are you?

21:14

I was like, well, no. And she's like, well, you're not black either, are you? I was like, well, no.

21:20

So why are you doing this? I was like, see, well, that's kind of the problem. I was like, see, we need more people who don't, we don't all have to be in those categories to care about this theory, because isn't this

21:30

Christ church being affected by this? And aren't these questions, actually when you get into this doctrine, they're questions that have been there since Galatians.

21:38

Right. You read Galatians and you say, oh, the Hebrew Israelites are the Judaizers. There's some differences going on.

21:44

Right. But they are the Judaizers of Galatians. Right. And they're bringing up the same issues, talking about the same things.

21:49

Right. That were in Galatians and in Acts. And so it brings up important issues that we need to deal with. And there needs to be a marshaling of resources and people caring, because it's happening and no one's paying attention.

22:01

And it's not gonna get smaller. It's, I mean, you could look at the self -published books, internet channels, it's gonna get bigger.

22:07

I think it'll be more prominent. I think you'll see more, I'm not saying this religion is gonna take over the world. But I'm gonna say,

22:13

I think you're gonna see it become a much more significant force in ground level inner city life.

22:20

Yeah. That's what I think you'll see happening. Yeah, I always wonder, like, when I'm just looking at what we face, just in one area, like say with Mormonism, like if the church had taken it more seriously.

22:30

Right, in the beginning, yeah. In the beginning, when they were in New York and then, you know, moving their way across, if we were just really engaged and worked hard on, you know, bringing the gospel to those communities, challenging them to public debate, you know, just working on, right.

22:42

You know, could we have stopped in its tracks and not gotten to, you know, over 10 million? Yeah, because now really is the time because, so they'll recommend a book.

22:51

This is the closest thing they have to their Bible. This is like the intro level from Babylon to Timbuktu. Scholars need to go through this book and lacerate it because it deserves to be eviscerated.

23:02

It's filled with bad historiography, false assumptions, written in 1969,

23:08

I believe. But if you look at this, this is an example of something that a scholar especially could utilize resources because they make a lot of claims about the

23:16

Hebrew language. There's something that's difficult for a lay person to tack onto. That's why I'm glad my second reader is a, he's a

23:21

Hebrew professor. So I can be like, what's this guy saying here? What's this guy saying there? You know, is this accurate? And half the time he's laughing.

23:27

He's like, dude, they're making up words. He's like, this doesn't exist and this is half a word. And anyways, but the thing is, you don't know that.

23:34

So we need these resources there. That's incredible. But there's a lot of stuff that the average person is like, whoa, they're making way too many claims.

23:42

This is like multidisciplinary, you know, multiple disciplines you'd have to be aware of. So we need to attack it now as God's people and also shore up our churches.

23:55

So this doctrine is not so attractive to people as well. And then also figure out some evangelistic strategies to reach out to people who have been affected by this.

24:05

Because in my current research, I have met, in case someone's wondering, ex -Hebrew

24:10

Israelites who are now on fire believers for the Lord. I have met them. So it's not like you're in this and it's forever, you know, there are people who get saved.

24:18

They come out of this and realize some of the sadness that they realized that it was wrong, basically.

24:25

So what, well, I mean, so I want to have at least have this in the show.

24:31

Give me a snapshot of what they believe about God and the gospel, like those two central issues.

24:39

By and large, they like to call God the Most High. Okay. So if you see the abbreviation TMH online, that means the

24:45

Most High. And then they are sacred namers, meaning they get caught up on what you call

24:52

God specifically. Okay. So it can't be Jehovah though, but it might be, and it's very rarely

24:57

Yahweh, it's other versions. And you can know which sect they are by what they call God. So very big on that.

25:04

But I haven't met any that are triune. They'll have Jesus be divine in some way, but none of them that I've determined so far have

25:14

Jesus being co -equal. So they all denigrate Jesus to some kind of lesser being status. It looks very similar oftentimes to Jehovah's Witness Christology.

25:21

Okay. Not all the time though, but a lot of times it looks like that. So that's obviously a problem. Some of the groups have the

25:26

Holy Spirit being a person, but a lot of the groups I've ran into do have Holy Spirit as not

25:32

God or it as well. And so that creates a problem from the jump. Then the gospel side of it, you hardly ever hear them use the word gospel.

25:43

You hear them say things like, do you keep the law? And they think you can keep the law.

25:50

So they have a high view of man's ability to please God by keeping the law. While they're dropping F -bombs.

25:56

Well - Have any of them defended that violence? Well, the violence is one thing because most of them don't try to be violent this side of things.

26:06

But the F -bombs, the camps that do that, remember some say, hey, those guys do that. That's not Christ -like. Some say that's not Christ -like.

26:11

So they would say what we would say. The camps that do say, Edomites aren't used to a strong black man making confident claims.

26:18

And so they tell us to tone it down, but we don't have to listen to you. So something like, there's nothing wrong.

26:24

And they'll say, don't you know? I'm sorry. Don't you know that Paul said he was crude of speech?

26:31

In the King James Version, I think it says when I came to you, I was rude of speech or something. Yeah, he came to church, he was like dropping F -bombs.

26:37

They interpret it, I was like, Paul was like getting it in like that. Which, and there's some other examples they love to bring up.

26:43

Of course, they would bring up Elijah and things like that. Jesus' words to the Pharisees. So they say they're fine where they're at with that.

26:51

But the gospel to them is works -based. Do they believe Jesus died and rose again? Most of them do that I can ascertain, but it seems like incidental in their overall soteriology.

27:03

Not because he was God. Well, he definitely wasn't God by any of the camps I've heard talked to, but occasionally you will hear camps a little bit focused on the atonement.

27:13

And so some of the camps get kind of Christian sometimes. So I was listening to a teaching and it was weird because it came from a guy

27:19

I didn't expect would say it. And that's what's hard, it's not always consistent. He was talking about being forgiving.

27:24

And he said, because Jesus Christ died for our sins and forgave us. And I was like, it was really out of context from what

27:31

I had come to expect from them. But it's rare that you hear that. And it is a little more incidental, but that's actually, that's a legitimate

27:37

Christian application. So my point is sometimes you'll be listening to them and you'll say, that's a decent interpretation of that verse.

27:43

You'll hear and you'll say, well, that's not what I would go with that interpretation, but that's a legitimate

27:49

Bible interpretive option there. Now they have a lot of esoteric interpretations as well. Sure, that's what

27:54

I've seen. But you'll hear these things and a lot of times you'll say they're doing, they're trying, sometimes you hear guys legitimately trying to do justice to the text.

28:04

And so it's weird. Sometimes I'm pleasantly surprised by some of the ways they interpret scripture, sometimes.

28:10

So it's a real mixed bag actually. So I want to give them respect where respect is due, but the atonement, most of them seems a little more incidental.

28:18

Law -keeping, I picture them like Judaizers. It's more about law -keeping really. Okay. Are they,

28:24

I'm sorry, I'm just going to ask if they were annihilationists because. Can't tell yet.

28:30

It seems like they have a view that if you're an Edomite that's real bad, you get killed when black

28:36

Messiah comes back and you're just, I don't think you, I don't know what happens to you. Or if you're like a black dude who's two down.

28:41

Define real bad Edomite. I mean, it seems like, because see, I haven't gotten this figured out.

28:48

You get worried, Joy. I mean, so Donald Trump, just kidding. It's too easy, right?

28:55

It's too easy. But because I haven't understood yet because it seems like the slaves, they're not immediately killed.

29:01

So I almost think like the slaves might have it better off from what I can tell, but I haven't fully got it figured out.

29:07

Who's like the hierarchy of what judgment looks like for them. Maybe there's like a house field type slave concept.

29:15

Okay. I'm still working that all out to try to understand some of those things, but some of them are dead, but it doesn't seem like they go to hell.

29:21

Seems like it's annihilationism. Okay, so let's wrap it up with maybe some resources and helps.

29:28

I mean, obviously you're getting started on this and this is all like ground level stuff and you did a great job, by the way, in explaining this.

29:35

This is really fascinating. You got a stack of books here. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So maybe explain to everybody what should we do to start?

29:42

Well, if you're gonna do reading, so this is not the only way to approach it or get answers, but if you're gonna do reading,

29:48

I'll recommend a few books to help you. One is called Africa in the Bible. Yamauchi, great scholar.

29:54

And it gives you more of the true perspective on how Africa as a continent does tie into scripture because Africa is more prominent in the

30:03

Bible than Europe. But like, if you actually look at the whole of the Bible, you're like, hey, Africa is, when you add it all up,

30:08

Africa is pretty important in scripture actually. Great book. So this just is to give you the real view of the scripture's interaction with Africa.

30:16

That's it? Yeah, that's a great book. And then a similar but different is a book by Daniel Hayes from Every People and Nation, A Biblical Theology of Race.

30:25

Great book on the Bible's discussion and interaction of actually different people groups in scripture and a biblical way to look at it and approach it.

30:33

It's just, this series is edited by D .A. Carson and it's not directly refuting any claims per se.

30:38

It's giving you robust theology to interact with what they say because there is no Christian book that interacts and refutes their claims.

30:46

There's a couple of videos, a couple of articles, but it's very rudimentary in it.

30:51

This is a more general book, Scripture Twisting by James Sirey. It shows you the way cults tend to twist texts and Hebrew Israelites are guilty a lot of these, especially the esoteric interpretation view.

31:02

I recommend this book. I don't know if you guys would though, but for 40 questions about Christians and biblical law,

31:08

I think it's helpful to understand why the food laws aren't binding on the Christian, why are we doing

31:16

Sunday instead of Saturday, things along those lines. Yeah, we're with you. And there's some good stuff in here though, and I think that's helpful because the law is gonna be important to them and how they approach it.

31:27

And then - That's why theonomy is so important, vocab. That's what they would say too, except they don't know the word theonomy,

31:33

I don't think. And then this book is the history of them, but it's by a scholar and it's printed by Oxford actually.

31:41

So it's a kind of a relatively objective view of their history up to this point.

31:47

And so it just gives you a history of the movement if you understand. The Chosen People by Jacob Dorman. And then let me give last book.

31:53

This is my favorite one out of them all. Hebrew Israelites for Dummies. This one's hilarious. It's filled with pictures and memes.

31:59

It's written by a guy who calls himself the Judahite. It's self -published, and it's laid out a little odd, but it's still very helpful to help you understand some of their basic things they find important.

32:10

And it's Hebrew Israelites for Dummies. I mean, what more can you say? So there's some, but there's no single -

32:16

Yeah. But the best thing, join our discussion group. It's called Christian and Hebrew Israelite Discussion Group on Facebook.

32:22

Come join it and then just ask questions to the Hebrew Israelites in there and find ways to share the gospel to them.

32:28

You'll probably learn more through that than anything else. And from that, you'll probably run into some guys who live close to you, and I recommend you private follow -up from the discussion group to do a private follow -up to go eat with them somewhere and then talk to them further, which is, by God's grace, what

32:43

I've been able to do with a few guys. So if you ever publish a book, is it gonna be by Vocat Malone or J .M. Reiser?

32:48

I haven't got that figured out yet. I don't know. I like J .M. Reiser. But it's Reiser. Reiser, sorry. I always say it wrong.

32:54

It's all good. Yeah, I don't know yet. See, if I do that, it gives away the German side because if it was on the

32:59

Italian side, the Sicilian side, which is a little better, according to them, it could be Paulino, but then I gotta be

33:05

Reiser. So I don't know. I don't know yet. They all have nicknames. Why can't I just be Vocat Malone? Why can't you have numbers and letters together if you're like KRS -One?

33:14

Like, or... What's wrong with Vocat Malone? See, that's another thing I like about actually this area is it fits urban theologian street apologetics.

33:23

That's where you talk. That's where you go. It absolutely makes sense to me that you're into this. Especially because you were describing all these things and you were like, they're all like superheroes.

33:33

And I was like, there we go. That's why you're doing this. He's like, I saw that they had a doll and I was like an action figure.

33:39

I was like, I'm in. He told me, he was like, some of them wear capes. And I was like, I think we all should. Some of them do wear capes.

33:45

And in the videos where they're street preaching and the wind is blowing while they're speaking. They cosplay.

33:51

It's flawless perfection because the dude's cape is going in the wind. And he's like, don't you know?

33:56

And you're like, it's like amazing. I'm like, I was trying to evangelize. She's like, wait, wait, wait, wait.

34:02

I kind of like these guys. I was in the Biola library and Biola got this comics collection. So you have to go down to the archives and you can read

34:10

Christian. They're all Christian comics from like way back in the 50s, 60s, 70s. And so I was going through one day and they pull them out with gloves.

34:18

It's really weird. You only look a certain amount of time and you're with the archivist down on the bottom of the basement of Biola.

34:24

And I come across one. I'm like, wait a minute. They had a black Hebrew, Israelite comic in the collection.

34:31

I was like, I can't take this. I can't have this. Why can't I have this? You know what this is? And it was just amazing.

34:36

Like Moses had an Afro so large, he had a part in the middle. Your part is Afro like the Red Sea. And there's parts where they fly.

34:43

It is amazing the way they tell the Bible stories. So I did take some pictures of it. So I got on my phone, but I want to get that comic so bad.

34:51

It's pretty amazing. When you see it, you'll be like, oh, this is. He didn't have a pic.

34:57

He was sticking out of the part and it was Pharaoh. It was legit. It was legit though. Hey, take your pick.

35:02

It's either that or Charlton Heston. All right, I'll go with the Afro guy. This is awesome.

35:09

All right, so Volcan Malone, pastor of Roseville Community Church. Thanks brother. Thanks for having me on guys. And enjoy the girl, the bear.

35:17

And thank you guys. If you were watching this, you are part of our all access. You partner with us.

35:23

You make all this ministry possible. You make all of this opportunity to get educated, all of this information, getting it out to the

35:30

Christian community. And you did it. You helped us. And so thank you guys so much. Let somebody know about Apology All Access.

35:37

And don't forget coming up soon is reformcon .org. Volcan Malone is going to be there.

35:42

He's teaching. How many times are you teaching? Once that I know of. Well, he's only free the first night, but you know what, did

35:48

I tell you what he's going to teach on? What? Theology and comic books. Really? Nice. Very cool.

35:54

Batman, Superman, maybe throw in Star Wars, even though it's not a comic book. Yeah. There's good Star Wars comics though, aren't there? Well, yeah, but I got some specific things to talk about theology within Star Wars.

36:02

Okay. Like bro, in Return of the Jedi, Ewoks worshiping C -3PO. There's a thousand things about religion in that scene.

36:11

Wow. A thousand things. So the stuff that happens in that scene and afterwards with 3PO and the Ewoks, for example, there's other ones, but that's one of my favorites.

36:17

Wow. Wow. See, you saw, we almost got it going there. An engine almost started. So reformcon .org,

36:24

that's where you guys go to get tickets. You guys can come out and stay with us, June 1st through 4th, hang out, fellowship, listen to good teaching, meet vocab and the rest of the crew.