Did Tim Keller's LGBT Response Backfire? | Pastor Reacts

Wise Disciple

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:00

I see some churches that are basically ignoring the places in the

00:05

Bible that talk about homosexuality in order to love their gay neighbor. Who could he be referring to?

00:14

I know 1 Corinthians 6, and I know Leviticus, and I know Romans 1. It's so interesting to talk about all that stuff.

00:20

And I know the verses. I know the clobber passages, right? A gay man or woman who wants to worship their heavenly father?

00:28

We have some things to learn. Oh, right. Welcome back.

00:40

Got a brand new video for you here at Wise Disciple, where we're helping you become the effective Christian that you are meant to be.

00:46

My name is Nate Sala. I'm so glad that you are here. Today, we're going to look at a video. It's an older video, but it's making the rounds because, as you know, recently,

00:55

Pastor Tim Keller, who was a speaker, author, pastor at a church in New York for years, he passed away.

01:03

Now, Tim Keller is not free of controversy. I'm not really going to get into that, but it's out there.

01:10

What I want to do instead is I want to look at a video that's been floating around recently on some of Tim Keller's comments on homosexuality.

01:18

And for a number of Christians, I think, as we watch this, a number of us can get confused about whether or not this was the right approach for Keller to take.

01:29

So what I wanted to do was just kind of sift through it and give my own thoughts and see how

01:35

I would respond or if I would do something differently. So this was put on through the Veritas Forum. It's an interview that Keller was doing at Columbia University, again, a number of years ago.

01:43

I'll leave a link for the full video in the notes below. But let's jump right in. I wrote a book about the gay rights movement because I was appalled by the oppression and the discrimination against homosexuals in my

01:57

America. And this questioner asks, what do so many of the churches have against homosexuals?

02:06

And what about your church's approach to homosexuality? Is it a sin? Are they going to hell?

02:12

So I almost always throw this out to folks when I do Q &As at churches, and I'm always curious to hear what their response would be in a scenario just like this, right?

02:22

What is the Christian's problem with homosexuals? What do Christians have against them? And so I'm curious right now, okay?

02:30

How would you respond to this question, those of you watching this video? Because this is not a theoretical question.

02:35

Many of us Christians have probably already been asked this question or have faced this kind of question or a form of it in our lives.

02:43

And so we need to be ready, right? How would you respond? Where would you go? Would you immediately cite scripture?

02:50

What scriptures would you cite? Let me know in the comments below. I'd love to get your take on all of this. Let's talk about my church first, which will be a little easier than trying to answer for all the other churches of the world.

03:00

But I'll try. I mean, I'm representing all the churches of the world, all right? You know? But Christianity, I mean, let's start with mine.

03:09

Interesting response there. Now, notice he has the crowd on his side, so he makes a bit of a sarcastic comment.

03:17

But it's done in such a congenial tone that a lot of the folks there laugh. What's interesting is, how does the questioner feel about that comment?

03:26

How does the moderator feel about it? You go to the Bible quite often, and there are many evangelicals who will say it is listed as a sin in the

03:36

Bible, and these people are going to hell right now. First, let's talk about my church again.

03:44

Let's go back here. What we would say is, I think it's unavoidable. I think most Protestant and Catholic and Orthodox Christians over the years have said—

03:51

So not to belabor this too much, but let's say there was no audience. And the moderator was the only one

03:58

Keller was talking to. He risked the moderator putting up a wall of defense there by simply making that sort of offhanded sarcastic comment.

04:06

So I say all that to say, be very careful how you proceed when faced with this kind of challenge.

04:12

I'm not saying never make jokes, okay? You guys know me well enough if you've, you know, been at the channel long enough.

04:18

I like me a good joke, and I like to slide in a good joke. But you gotta read the room, and you gotta know the moment that you're in.

04:24

Chris Voss, who is an ex -FBI hostage negotiator, would say that emotions are all wrapped up in decision -making.

04:32

Jonathan Hyde says the same thing. I apply this to belief formation as well. All of that to say, when talking about a clearly contentious issue like the treatment of the

04:41

LGBTQ with perhaps someone who is already emotionally charged to begin with—

04:47

Are you getting that sort of energy from the moderator when they ask the question? Well, then you're playing a risky game when you make sarcastic comments.

04:54

And I know what Keller was trying to do. I mean, he was trying to sidestep in a funny way, you know, being on the hook for every church everywhere that has ever made a comment about the

05:03

LGBTQ community. Because we all know a lot of Christians are just awful in this area, in the area of communication.

05:11

They have no love. They have no grace. They have no desire to be Christ -like. That's a whole other video about why that is the case.

05:19

And so Keller only wants to be responsible for himself and his church. Okay, fair enough.

05:24

Let's see how this goes. So, we should let this play out a little bit.

06:24

But it appears that Keller is trying to provide a balanced answer to a complex question.

06:31

And it is complex. There are many layers to this kind of question. Why do I say that? Because there are all kinds of embedded assumptions lying underneath the surface of what is actually being verbalized on that stage in that question.

06:44

Think of it like this. Imagine that you're engaging someone with the gospel. And they stop you at some point.

06:49

They say, just wait a second. Hold on a moment. You're telling me that I'm going to hell because I don't believe in Jesus? How do you respond to that?

06:56

I would propose to you that simply saying yes is not good enough. Because you're missing the underlying assumption that informs the question.

07:05

Put it to you this way. What does the Bible teach about hell? Right? What does the Bible teach about what sends people to hell?

07:11

Well, the answer is sin. Right? Our sin. Our sin sends us to hell. Okay? So, it's not lacking belief in Jesus.

07:20

It's our sin that does it. It's the same thing as saying, you know, wait, wait, wait, wait. You're telling me not going to the doctor and getting chemotherapy is going to kill me?

07:28

No, the cancer is going to kill you, bud. And so, we need to be able to recognize the underlying assumptions that go into questions like these in order to more effectively answer them.

07:38

And right now, Keller is trying to provide a balanced response that addresses all of the facets of the question.

07:45

That tries to get to those assumptions underneath. I don't believe in the trinity. It's a different view than what the

07:50

Bible says. Gay people have a different view of sexuality than generally what you see in the New Testament. I'm supposed to love my neighbors.

07:58

So, what I don't see is, at this point, I see some churches that are basically ignoring the places in the

08:07

Bible that talk about homosexuality in order to love their gay neighbor. Who could he be referring to?

08:15

Hmm. I know 1 Corinthians 6, and I know Leviticus, and I know

08:20

Romans 1. What's so interesting to talk about all that stuff, but just a gay man or woman who wants to worship their

08:27

Heavenly Father, who did not answer the cry of their heart when they were 12 and 13 and 14 and 15.

08:35

God said, no. And they still love God. We have some things to learn. Oh. Right.

08:42

I see other Christian churches taking very seriously what the Bible says about homosexuality, but in a very self -righteous way.

08:50

So they actually do single out gay people. I mean, there are a number of conservative churches that will love their

08:57

Hindu neighbors and will love their Muslim neighbors and not their gay neighbors. And I really don't think there is any excuse for that.

09:04

So that's what's it. I mean, I, I, I, therefore I have to take some responsibility being a member of the

09:11

Christian church for the oppression of homosexuality. Are committing homosexual acts, sexual acts, sin against God?

09:17

Uh, what do you mean by sin? The answer is yes. Yes. Now the reason, see here. Ah, okay. I actually,

09:24

I thought that might go another way for a split second. Okay. Uh, but I do like that Keller probes by asking the clarification question, right?

09:32

What do you mean by sin? Many people, uh, unfortunately, even many in the church do not understand what sin is.

09:40

And so they throw the term around. But again, in conversations like these, that becomes a recipe for talking around a person, not addressing their issue directly.

09:50

So clarification is key, especially in conversations like this. So good on Keller. The problem with that.

09:56

No, you don't go to hell for being homosexual, but committing homosexual acts will get you to go to hell?

10:03

No. Wait a minute. Wait, wait. Here we go. Right. No, because, you know, some people will say, well, it's not the homosexuality or being gay.

10:11

It's being, doing gay stuff. That's the problem. No. No. First of all, heterosexuality does not get you to heaven.

10:18

I happen to know this. Right. So how can homosexuality send you to hell?

10:27

I just, and actually, uh, the Bible, listen, this is, this is true.

10:33

Jesus talks about greed ten times more than he talks about adultery, for example.

10:39

Now, one of the problems Christians have here is partly, let's be nice to Christians.

10:45

You know when you're committing adultery. I mean, you don't say, oh, you're not my wife. I mean, you know you're committing. But, but almost nobody knows when they're greedy.

10:56

I mean, nobody thinks they're greedy, you know, because everybody is comparing yourself to other people, and so it's a frog in the kettle kind of thing.

11:02

However, the fact of the matter is, the Bible is much harder on greed materialism, and it's a horrible sin, terrible sin. Will, will greed send you to hell?

11:09

No. What sends you to hell is self -righteousness, thinking that you can be your own savior and lord.

11:16

What sends you to heaven is getting a connection with Christ because you realize you're a sinner, and you, and you need intervention from outside.

11:24

That's why it's a, it's very misleading, actually, to say, even to say homosexuality is a sin, because most people, yes, of course homosexuality is a sin, because greed is a sin, because all kinds of things are sins, but what most

11:39

Christians mean when they say that, and certainly what non -Christians think they hear when they hear that is, if you're gay, you're going to hell for being gay.

11:46

It's just not true. Absolutely not true. So then what's— So, very interesting response.

11:53

Wise Disciple community, is this how you would have responded in light of the question? Let me know in the comments,

11:59

I'm curious. Because I don't think I would have said it this way. But I have to think about that, because, you know,

12:06

Keller ends up where I sort of end up on the issue as well. So, let me back up.

12:12

The problem with much of the dialogue that takes place about issues like these is, it's framed all wrong.

12:18

It tends to be too far zoomed into the weeds, and misses the bigger picture. And so there's a tension for us

12:25

Christians to want to redirect the vision of the non -believer to the bigger picture. And this is what

12:31

I think Keller is doing right now. To the uncharitable person, and perhaps the uninitiated, it appears that he's jumping around trying as best he can to handle a hot potato, you know?

12:42

And perhaps not doing a very good job in the process, because he keeps jumping to different topics. That's not what he's doing, friends.

12:49

At least that's not what I think he's doing. What he's doing is he's trying to reframe the issue to get the questioner to better understand it.

12:56

Because the question as it is posed, will not get the questioner to see the bigger picture.

13:03

Is homosexuality a sin? Yes. Does that mean homosexuals are going to hell? Yes. But that's not even half of the story.

13:11

Guess what? A lot of heterosexuals are going to hell too. That means there's something deeper going on here.

13:18

Is one of the tips of the iceberg in terms of expression of sin engaging in LGBTQ activity?

13:23

Yes. But what else is going on? Especially underneath the surface, and the answer is an unwillingness to submit to the authority of God.

13:33

A deep -seated rejection of God and his desires for their life. And that brings us right back to the gospel, right?

13:39

The gospel message is not, marry a woman and go to heaven. The gospel message says, bend your knee to the

13:46

God of the universe and acknowledge that your self -centered desires, which includes more than merely LGBTQ acts, admit that they have put a wedge between you and your creator.

13:56

So the response then is to die to your desires and believe in Jesus and follow him, and he will restore right relationship with you and the

14:03

Father. You see how that actually, it cuts deeper than zeroing in on being

14:09

LGBTQ. Does it entail being LGBTQ? Absolutely. But the non -believer needs to see the bigger picture in order to understand that this is a submission issue at base.

14:19

And that's what Keller is trying to show in his response. How is homosexuality a sin?

14:25

Well, homo—greed's a sin. In other words, it's not, doesn't help human flourishing. Basically, Christianity has an account of what we think human beings were built to do and what will therefore help human flourishing.

14:38

So we would say if you spend all your money on yourself, that's bad. Not only for your own soul, but for everybody else's.

14:43

We would say homosexuality is not the original design for sexuality, therefore it's not good for human flourishing.

14:50

We want people to do things that are good for human flourishing, but that's not what sends you to heaven or hell. Now there, maybe we ought to talk about that.

14:57

What sends you to heaven or hell really has to do with your faith in the gospel, which is that you can't be your own savior through your performance and your good works.

15:08

Now here, I'm coming at this like a Protestant now. You know, everybody's got to be a particular kind of Christian, and there's difference of opinion within Christianity about this.

15:19

But no, being gay doesn't send you to hell, and sin doesn't send you to hell like that.

15:24

The sin underneath the sin is, I am my own savior and my lord. And that's the reason why Phariseeism, moralism,

15:32

Bible -believing people who are proud and think God's going to take them to heaven because they're good, that's sending them to hell.

15:39

And there it is. The sin under the sin. That's what Keller is trying to articulate, and that must be articulated if we're going to have effective conversations about this topic.

15:50

And what is the sin under the sin? It's a glorification of self, which automatically entails a rejection of the glorification of God.

15:57

Why? Because you cannot serve two gods, and to serve yourself as God means that you reject the one true

16:03

God. This tracks right along with Paul's take on this in Romans 1. Take a look at this. Romans 1, verse 18 says this, "...for

16:09

the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them, for God made it evident to them."

16:24

So the wrath of God is coming, and it's coming in judgment one day for the whole world. Why? Not because people had no idea there was a

16:31

God. Paul says the evidence for God is all around us. It's evident within us, and God has made it evident to us.

16:39

Verse 20, "...for since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes, both his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."

16:52

Many Christians refer to this category of the evidence of God through what has been made as natural revelation.

16:58

The fact that the universe even exists in the first place forces all of us as human beings to ask the question, where did it come from?

17:05

And the answer is God. Now, here comes the problem. Verse 21, "...for even though they knew

17:11

God, they did not glorify him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their thoughts and their foolish heart was darkened.

17:19

Professing to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the likeness of corruptible man and of birds and four -footed animals and crawling creatures."

17:30

So Paul's take, his indictment on the unrighteousness of mankind begins with a rejection of the glory of God, which is one of the fundamental things that we were put here on this planet to do.

17:43

We were created to glorify God. And why did people reject glorifying God? So that they could glorify themselves.

17:49

And so then what flows out of this? What naturally flows out of a glorification of self?

17:54

People following their own desires, following after the lusts of their own heart.

18:00

And as you continue to read Romans 1 here, God gives them over to the lusts of their own heart, and that leads to many expressions, but one in particular is, you guessed it, homosexual acts.

18:12

So you see how homosexual activity is the tip of the iceberg of something that runs much deeper below the surface.

18:21

But once you get under that surface, what's at base is a glorification of the self and a rejection of the glory of God.

18:29

And that's what Keller is attempting to explain right now. Now, having said all that,

18:35

I would not have said these things in the specific way that Keller did. I think I would have chosen my words differently in some key areas.

18:44

And I will acknowledge, I mean, let's face it, it is tremendously difficult sometimes to answer questions on the fly like this, especially on a stage in front of a lot of people.

18:54

But nevertheless, this is a wise strategy that Keller is utilizing to not just focus on the tip of the iceberg, so to speak, but to get to the sin under the sin.

19:05

Let's finish the video and I'll wrap up. I mean, I know this is a lot to take in at once. It's a lot. Yeah, I mean, inside our church, therefore, there's just not going to be this disdain of homosexuals.

19:18

There just can't be, not when I'm teaching the gospel like that. There is still a large swath of the

19:24

Christian community that wants to act like this country is still heavily churched, that this country still, by and large, knows the

19:32

Bible and recognizes the Christianity that lies at the core of our society. That is no longer true, ladies and gentlemen.

19:39

Maybe some would say that that was never true, but it certainly is not true in the 21st century.

19:45

We are living in a society right now where more and more people have grown up having never gone to church one time, having never cracked open a

19:54

Bible at all. But these same folks still think they know what they're talking about when it comes to Christianity.

20:00

And so they'll get into conversations with you sometimes, and they'll throw terms around like they know what they're talking about.

20:06

Oh, so God won't let me go to heaven because I'm gay? Meanwhile, they have almost no real concept of who

20:12

God is. They have no real understanding of what heaven is or what is required to be in God's presence.

20:18

They have no real understanding of sin or hell. They think they do, but they don't.

20:24

And so the question becomes, what do we do with a culture that continues to become more and more unchurched and foreign to the

20:31

Christian worldview? The answer cannot be speak to them as if they are already Christians. No, the answer must be that we need to contextualize the gospel to this foreign culture.

20:41

We need to do some work to explain what sin is. We need to do some work to explain what being a human being is.

20:48

We need to explain who God is and what he desires. To simply answer a question like this about homosexuality with, well, yep, it's not good enough, friends, it doesn't travel the necessary explanatory distance to get a non -believer to truly understand what the

21:03

Bible teaches. I run over these things with audiences when I teach First Aid Evangelism, which, if you don't know, it's just my method of having effective conversations, and it's based on the way that Jesus communicated in the

21:14

Gospels, as well as how I would teach my own debate students how to ask leading questions. The best and easiest thing to do is ask the person you're engaging to explain their own views and to justify them.

21:28

This is essentially what I do with my LGBTQ friends now. Like Keller, I still track along the lines of seeking to identify the sin under the sin.

21:37

But when I'm in conversations with LGBTQ folks, I'm bringing up identity and I'm bringing up meaning a lot, and I'm trying to address and engage those categories all the time.

21:47

I'm asking them how they determine their identity and their meaning in life, and then I'm listening to hear what their answer is.

21:54

Why? Because to be LGBTQ is to root your identity and to find meaning in the wrong thing.

22:00

So, how a person discovers their identity is the question below the surface that must be investigated.

22:07

Many Christians are shocked to discover that when I meet an LGBTQ person for the first time, I don't immediately become the moral sin police and start going to Scripture to point out their sin.

22:18

Why? Because many of them have no basis of understanding with regard to sin and their moral responsibility to begin with.

22:25

Many do not accept the Bible as a source of authority in their lives. They've never even cracked open the book at all.

22:31

It would be like me trying to explain the speed limit to someone who's never driven a car before. No, we need to back up a few steps earlier, and we need to start on a more fundamental level.

22:41

Why? Because now more than ever, the gospel must be contextualized to a culture that is largely foreign to it.

22:49

That means the way that we communicate needs to shift in order to recognize this reality. Tim Keller knew that, and he responded accordingly.

22:57

When you are faced with a question like this, what do Christians have against homosexuality? Don't just start talking, okay?

23:04

Investigate first why the person is even asking the question. You could literally say, why do you ask?

23:11

I mean, that's, you know, that's something that could come out of your mouth. You know, just for clarification, why are you asking, right?

23:17

That is a diagnostic question. It's designed to gauge the person's level of understanding with regard to God, the

23:24

Bible, sin, and even homosexuality. And then proceed from there, right?

23:30

Maybe some other questions you can ask is, well, what do you think sin is? You know, but before I answer this question,

23:36

I think there are a few other things that need to be addressed, or else my answer won't make a whole lot of sense. What is your understanding of why

23:42

God made human beings? What is your understanding of what is required to go to heaven? Are you asking this question because you think that all it takes to get to heaven is to be heterosexual?

23:52

These kinds of questions open the door to better conversations than simply saying, uh, yep, gays don't go to heaven.

24:00

You see that, right? Okay, that's enough standing on my soapbox there. What do you think about this?

24:05

I don't assume that all of you agree with Keller or my take on this, so how do you respond when faced with this kind of question?

24:12

Let me know in the comments below. Let's get some interaction going there. As always, I pray that something in this video got you thinking and will prepare you for your own interactions on this issue.

24:22

I've definitely got more videos for you guys. Please help me out by liking and subscribing to the channel because we're only getting started here at Wise Disciple and more people should know about us.

24:32

Amen. I'm going to take a break and return soon with more videos, but in the meantime, I'll say bye for now.