October 20, 2022 Show with Dr. John Currie on “God’s Gospel, God’s Gift, God’s Purpose, & God’s Choice” PLUS Dr. Jonathan Gibson on “Worship: On Earth As It Is In Heaven”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

It's iron sharpens iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing

the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us.

Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage We are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to

have in view in conversation To make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours.

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions, and now here's your host Chris

Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via Live

streaming at iron sharpens iron radio dot -com.

This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Thursday on

this 20th day of October 2022.

I'm so thrilled to have two First -time guests today one each

hour.

For the first hour we have joining us.

Dr. John Curry.

Who is an ordained minister in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church and a professor of pastoral

theology at Westminster Theological Seminary.

He is going to be addressing God's gospel God's gift God's purpose and God's choice and

will also be announcing the upcoming East Shore Reformed conference in Chestertown, Maryland

during the second hour.

We'll be joined by Dr. Jonathan Gibson who received his PhD from Cambridge

University.

And he's a former associate minister at Cambridge Presbyterian Church in England.

He's an author and currently associate professor of Old Testament at Westminster Theological Seminary.

He is going to be addressing worship on earth as it is in heaven.

And will be announcing the upcoming bold north conference on reform theology in st. Paul,

Minnesota.

But first of all, it is my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to iron

sharpens iron radio.

Dr John Curry.

Hi Chris great to be with you.

It's great to have you on the program.

Why don't you tell our listeners the likelihood that our that There be

anyone in our audience that has never heard of Westminster Theological Seminary is probably slim.

But you never know.

I mean I do have New believers who listen.

I even have those from outside of not only reform Christianity listening but outside of

Christianity entirely.

Sometimes we have Muslims and Orthodox Jews and atheists and so on listening, but why don't

you tell our listeners about Westminster Theological Seminary?

Well, thank you for the opportunity.

A Westminster's who started in

1929 under the leadership of a Minister

in church

and not

that I

serve in that it

was really a different religion and so with the system and modernism that were

coming into the church a Mason started in 1929 Westminster feel

to be committed to the authority sufficiency of the Word of God and Particularly

as the teaching in what we call reformed theology and the

that would

become the training of a new generation of and

now on almost a hundred years and the Lord has just been very faithful to us

and Has really given Westminster.

It really goes beyond

our a lot of

people have been helped Theologically a lot of pastors have been equipped for the ministry.

And so that's the institution in Glenside, Pennsylvania that I have the inestimable privilege of serving in these

days.

Praise God.

And What exactly would be a part of?

Your courses there as a professor of.

Pastoral theology.

Yeah.

Well pastoral theology.

General

theology.

We focus

on

the areas of preaching and leadership and

Pastoral care and counseling and some other institutions are sometimes called practical theology.

We go into the title pastoral theology because we really are taking theology.

Our job

is to well if

anybody wants more.

Details on Westminster Theological seminary here in Pennsylvania.

The website is Wts .edu Wts .edu and

also Dr. Curry is going to be speaking at the East Shore reformed

conference this weekend.

That's actually starting tomorrow Friday October 21st through Saturday,

October 22nd at Grace Community Church in Chestertown, Maryland.

And it's on the theme the sovereignty of God and salvation.

If you want more details on that go to Alliance net org Alliance net

org and even to be more detailed on this specific conference and

Add forward -slash the dash sovereignty dash of dash God dash in

dash salvation and I'll be repeating that later on.

We have a tradition here on iron shop and Zion radio.

Dr. Curry when whether we have a first -time guest on the

program.

We have that guest give a summary of their salvation testimony that would include.

The kind of religious atmosphere in which they were raised if any and what kind of providential

Circumstances our Sovereign Lord raised up in their lives that drew them to himself and saved them.

And I'd love to hear your story.

Well, thank

you

in a teenager

and we did not at that point have any exposures, of course, I knew to the

gospel and so You might say the

group

in that church

really loved me well and While it was not a reformed church There was enough

Bible and God my conscience was being provoked

I was being exposed to and then at a youth event

Number the year that I started to go to that church that at a youth event I was really arrested

by the fact that Jesus Christ was coming again and

If he was to return all

eternity and so at that youth event I responded to an invitation to believe in

Jesus and and I'm Convinced that it was at that event that I I came to faith

In the Lord Jesus Christ and then from there because that because that little church was very committed to the

scriptures Even although they weren't a reformed church.

They were deeply committed to the Bible as the Word of God.

I learned to love the Bible I grow in my study of the Bible and

and through that context got called to the ministry as I went off to

Bible College and And then went into the ministry I had been trained in

the discipline of expository preaching and it was as I got into the Need to preach the

scriptures week to week that I actually began to ask questions of the text and knowing

that I needed to answer my questions from the text of Scripture that actually led me into reformed

theology as I Got exposure to good commentators and teachers

Who were handling the the Word of God with reverence.

It was actually in the ministry that I became.

Convinced.

Wow.

Now, can you repeat what kind of a theological?

Background that that ministry had since you discovered the reformed faith in the

midst of it.

Yeah, I was in a denomination called the Christian and missionary Alliance.

Oh, yes.

Yeah, in fact, I know a in fact, he's become a friend of mine I don't know if you know him yet a

local CMA pastor who is theologically reformed.

Yeah, David Monreale of the Carlisle Alliance Church, and they Extended

the invitation to him knowing he was a five -point Calvinist and thoroughly reformed.

So they do exist.

In fact when I interviewed him I was getting emails from other

CMA's of several CMA pastors that were also reformed.

There are a number of

as well as in the United

States

and.

So yeah, that's where I was preaching of the scripture.

I praise God.

Well, we are going to be discussing as our theme today.

A.

Theme that is drawn from these sessions at your upcoming conference that I

mentioned before the sovereignty of God and salvation Starting tomorrow and continuing through Saturday

at Grace Community Church of Chestertown, Maryland.

And this is a conference by the way of the Alliance of confessing evangelicals.

But we're going to be discussing God's gospel God's gift God's purpose and God's choice obviously in a very

summary form.

We could never at great length and in detail plumb to the depths of those issues in

the time that we have Awaiting us, but I thought this would be a good way to wet the appetites of anyone who wants to

Try to attend last -minute to this conference.

First of all, it is interesting.

That's something that seems So basic and so clear in the

inerrant scriptures and we who are reformed.

As do most Christians who claim to believe in the inerrancy of scripture We also believe in the

perpiscuity of scripture.

It's interesting that the gospel that seems to be such a basic and clear

teaching of the scriptures does evoke somehow differences of

opinion on How we receive the blessings of that gospel.

And you will have In -house debates and even

Arguments that bring the question whether some have violated important tenets of the gospel.

And that has even happened within the spectrum of churches identifying themselves

as reformed.

So please provide for us what you think is a

Definition of God's gospel that is Necessary

for the salvation of sinners.

Well, and I was

asked to speak and

because of the way that I thought

the best the conference

in the book of Romans.

In the book of Romans, you know, he that

he's been set

for the gospel of God.

And what that means is it's the gospel that God it came from God.

It's it to recognize about the

gospel is that it's it's the message comes from God.

It's revealed by him.

It's by his design.

Through his servant written down his word

in the scripture.

And I think as we look at God's gospel you you you have a hard time I think finding a better the

kind of definition you've asked for Chris the better definition than what Paul gives to us and

First Corinthians 15 when he tries to remind the Corinthians of what he first of all delivered to them.

His gospel that Christ died for our sins According to the scriptures

and that he was raised from the dead on the third day According to the scriptures and so the gospel

centers on the person of Jesus Christ it's the it's the revelation of God's

message that centers on the person of Jesus Christ and what he has done for the

salvation of Sinners his death on the his obedient life.

His death on the cross and then his resurrection from the dead on the third day.

And then how does that how does what he did become mine?

Well, we're gonna get to that when we talk about God's gift and in Romans chapter 3.

But the gospel becomes mine.

Christ of the gospel becomes mine.

Not through anything that I do not through any deeds of my own that I have done will now do or do

in the future Christ and all that he is and did becomes mine through faith

alone it says I as I hear the revelation of Christ in Scripture and say

That's true as I hear the revelation of Christ in Scripture and say I need him for

my sin and then I turn from my sin and Trust him

alone to forgive my sin.

So, you know Chris John Calvin said that the gospel is Christ

clothed in his gospel and The gospel is the message of Jesus Christ in his

atoning death and in his life -giving Resurrection as he

is received by faith.

Yes, and when we move on to the next aspect of God's

gift There has been obviously for centuries a

Dispute between those of us who are reformed and those that would be outside of the

reformed camp.

Many Armenians would be included in that and they would

Typically not identify with that word or Don't not

identify using that word for themselves.

Armenian, but many do but I think the majority do not but

They will hear if they believe in the inerrancy of Scripture.

They will hear Ephesians 2 verses 8 and 9 For by grace you have

been saved through faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God not as a result of works

so that no one may boast and They will say yes, I agree with that but they will

also say a gift cannot be a gift unless you freely have the

power to either accept it or reject it and therefore

man does cooperate in that Gift because he is the final

arbiter of whether or not He accepts or rejects it.

And I have responded To these well -meaning folks

that first of all, where do you get that definition of gift that you have to have the the

power to accept or reject it because if I am lying

unconscious in a hospital bed and my friends and loved ones and even

strangers donate Blood or even donate a vital organ

that needs to be transplanted within me.

I have no awareness of this occurring and Therefore I'm not freely

Accepting it in order it to be legitimately called a gift.

It's a gift whether I accept it or not, but if you could pick up where I left off there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Many people's

view of

salvation in the middle of the ocean about

throw them a life preserve that.

Then and they can grab on to that.

We have the life preserve sinking of drowning and thinking about the drown

will only grab it.

Well, the biblical picture as Sproul pointed out to us much more like

we've actually already hanging in Jesus Jumps in

to the water reads life into us so that we can look and say oh, there's the Savior

and then we embrace him and.

The passage that you referred to Chris Ephesians

chapter you get to the passage

by grace you are before that.

It tells us that we're dead in our trespasses and our sins

and and then after in chapter 2 verse 10 It says that we are God's

workmen

should walk in them.

So the whole context of Ephesians chapter 2 pictures us as Sinners as those who are already

dead to God.

Later in chapter 4 of Ephesians It'll tell us that we are a darkened in our

understanding and alienated from the life of God.

So there's no life to receive the gift and and Rome chapter 8 It'll

tell us that that that that we we we cannot we we don't love the law of

God.

We cannot respond to the law.

We're not even able to do so and so.

The problem with the analogy that we have to be able to receive the gift in order for it to be a gift.

It's a gift that's given to dead people.

We don't have the ability In sin, nor do we have the desire

it held out to us.

So God in His grace and gives us

a new heart.

Faith that is exercised is not a work that we add to the grace of salvation.

Faith is the instrument by which we receive the gift of grace that he has given that he has given to us and

the faith That we exercise is faith.

That is the result of a new heart a Regeneration that God has by his grace

given to us before we even have the ability to believe.

So the one of the problems with the view that says Faith is our

contribution or faith is our part is that it doesn't understand how dead and sin We

actually are it doesn't have a deep enough view of human depravity and there and therefore doesn't have a

high enough view.

Grace.

By which he gives us the ability amen and.

Obviously as Reformed Christians, we have to make it clear to those outside of

our theological camp that We do not believe

that a Person will continue to live on his life

After being Regenerated by the Holy Spirit of God

Rejecting the gospel.

We do believe that the elect consciously and

willingly and lovingly and joyfully and Gratefully

embrace this gospel, but it is only because we have first been given new hearts.

Am I right?

So that God does the believe of

believing.

But we do the believing through the gift of a new heart that he has already given to us.

Like anything else in life we have freedom within our nature and

and My nature

as a sinner when God gives me

a new heart Then I am free.

It is if we do the believing that we do the

believing Based out of the new heart

and we are going to our first.

Station break.

If you have a question that you would like to ask John Curry.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com as always.

Give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA at C H R I S A R N Z E N at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with John Curry.

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is professor of pastoral theology at Westminster Theological Seminary here in Pennsylvania?

We are addressing God's gospel God's gift God's purpose and God's choice.

Which are a part of the upcoming East Shore Reformed Conference?

Being held tomorrow and Saturday on the sovereignty of God and salvation and that's a Grace Community Church

of Chesterton, Maryland.

So judging from what you have said, Dr. Curry there seems to be

a problem on How those outside of the Reformed camp understand

the nature of man and how far man's fall has taken him

spiritually he is not just spiritually sick or weakened as Those

outside of the Reformed camp would claim.

He's actually spiritually dead.

Yeah, that's correct.

I think that's

what we

get

and respond

to God

and it's great.

I want to live autonomously from his law

appeal there unless.

We have a questioner and I usually only give the first name city and

state or country of a Listener who submits a question, but in this case

It's a pastor I know and since I would love to give or use this as an opportunity

to promote the congregation where he serves I Will identify his full name.

It's pastor Jeremy Brandenburg Who is pastor of the Redeemer Orthodox

Presbyterian Church here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania and by the way, his website

folks is Redeemer OPC org.

Redeemer OPC org and Pastor Jeremy says dr. Curry.

Is it true that the esteemed?

Westminster Theological Seminary founding faculty member Reverend dr John Murray had a

glass eye as a result of his military service in World War one and Is it also

true that students could reliability identify the glass eye by the glimmer of compassion?

Which seemed to emanate from it and not his own natural eye.

Is this a joke Jeremy?

But if you could respond to that.

Yeah.

That's the legend

that

it's one of

the legends

that what students could identify

with because it was the one that had to connect.

That's part of it now, yeah, and of course now rumors are going to start spreading that Westminster

Theological Seminary is Pentecostal.

Well, you've taught me a valuable lesson pastor Brandenburg.

I am going to begin to make sure I read questions in their completion before reading them on the

air.

But thank you for submitting the question pastor Jeremy.

And We also have a an anonymous listener

who says That I have been having disputes with some fellow

fellow reformed brethren Who claim that?

Arminianism is absolute heresy with a false gospel because of the differences we have with them.

While I agree that they have Very serious problems with

their theology and that areas of it are inerrant I don't think that where they are

wrong leads their whole gospel to collapse into a false one and therefore I

can still Identify them as my brothers and sisters, although erring brethren.

I was wondering how you Consider this situation.

Significant question.

Keep in mind

not least one who claims and claims to have faith.

I think it's it's that you're never just have.

You're having a debate with the person and I think you want to address what

it's not just what what

conclusions that must lead them to one of the.

One of the things I think we can do that lead lead Christians unto on into unnecessary Division.

At times their divisions are necessary.

Sometimes we can get ourselves into unnecessary division because what we actually do Is impute to

somebody conclusions that we think they must hold when they don't actually hold them.

You watch is what anti Calvinists do all the time to us.

That's true.

Yeah, we were debating with

what we want to do is understand what they really believe and happily most

in the Arminian position are inconsistent and I mean if I was an Arminian

before I was a Calvinist Chris and I was committed

to his word and I it's a little bit you mentioned, you know, it kind of jokingly

earlier I was actually saved in the Pentecostal Church.

That was the church I was saved.

Amen who believes the Bible's the Word of God and you can and that's what I hope.

This is what I hope will happen at the conference this weekend as we look at the scriptures together.

Genuine believers Bring their lives under the authority of Scripture and often what?

Those who are in a so -called Arminian camp are doing is there are Categories and there

are convictions that they are importing into the scripture or that they've been told are there in the scriptures?

That are actually an obstacle to them seeing the glories of grace that are revealed in the scripture.

So what I would want to say to the listener is rather than Rather than trying to deal with an

entire with the person who's in front of you

find out what they believe.

And help to show them from the scriptures that the Bible they say they believe.

The Bible that they that they and the Christ of the Bible that they say they believe in actually teaches

something different than what they've been taught.

Often when another way to put it is there's Arminians and there's Arminians, you know, there's there there

there we have to most Arminian believers that I know are

carrying Categories are carrying baggage that they've been discipled in and once we

once we lovingly patiently Demonstrate from the scriptures what the scriptures actually teach

a a sincere Christian.

What?

Will embrace what I would address in Chris.

In fact, could you just repeat the the last few words of your final sentence because for some reason you got a

little garbled up.

I have no idea why.

Yeah,

I was just saying what I

think think is in

there isn't

but they didn't think I'm what the Bible actually teaches.

Amen.

And as.

Ji Packer, I believe it was Packer.

Perhaps you can correct me if I'm wrong.

But I J a Packer once said that all Christians are Calvinists on their knees and

prayer because even the Arminian will be praying for God to change hearts God to

save their lost loved ones and.

You're wondering why they're really doing that.

If God has done all he can do and the rest is up to them it's interesting that they would

pray that way, but it's I think it's the subconscious understanding of a Regenerate

heart and mind.

Yeah, I think you're you're right.

It was yet in the evangelism and the sovereignty of God and

I think it's a great illustration of.

Theologically, I think

that's right a lot of Sinus on his on his on their knees praying for God

to change.

Somebody's heart is functionally at Calvin's.

Amen, and one last thing about that.

I think that.

And I'm not not undermining or lessening or diminishing the seriousness of an Arminian's error

but at the same time I think what they met mainly fail to see is the

scriptural teaching of The invisible things that happen through the

sovereignty of God that enable the sinner to believe

Repent and embrace this gospel.

And a lot of the disputes that we have are just because of the areas That are invisible to humans

that involve God's sovereignty in enabling the dead sinner to spiritually

rise and See the truth and embrace it.

And I think that.

Go ahead.

Yeah, I think I think that's right and that and I think you're right to point out.

It doesn't mean it's not a serious that we don't Give

God the honor he's due in what and what he has done in Christ.

We're not giving him the glory He deserves so it's just and we need to be earnest about it.

I think we need to not rule people outside the kingdom that Christ is brought into the kingdom.

Yeah, man, and.

Harold camping who's now deceased Was teaching something I believe very wrong.

He would accuse our minions of teaching a works gospel because if you

require belief for someone to be born again you are

Teaching a works gospel and equating believing with work.

Well, if that's the case because I've heard Calvinists say that's a works gospel to Insist on believing for the

rebirth to occur.

You have to be very careful because Sola Fide justification by faith alone is

one of the core principles of the Reformation and that does not mean

Justification by works alone.

It's the opposite justification by faith alone and we go

on to now Address briefly God's purpose.

What is God's purpose in the gospel?

Yeah, I love I love this where we're gonna go at the contest to go to

Romans and we

know that for

those

We can kind of

stop there's for those whom he foreknew.

He also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son in order that he might be the

firstborn among many brothers, and I think that gives us a glorious picture of the

purpose of God even as we talk about as Reformed people

in Ephesians how God has predestined us.

To adoption and in love he has predestined us.

This of God is to have a people for his

possession and that the and those as God said to his people be holy for I am

holy and.

So God's purpose is not just to save us not just to convert us.

But it's actually to conform us to the image of his son to his holiness so what we want to

flesh out from Romans chapter 8 is that he has He has.

God has decreed and designed from all eternity that he would get glory in having a people

Who are conformed to his likeness in holiness, and that's why when he when he?

Predestines us he then calls us and he calls us he justifies us

and that we will in

glory Be conformed to his likeness.

So of God that we want to bring out is his

look like his son who is the revelation of himself.

Amen, and that's a that's a missing element in the heresy of easy believism and cheap

grace those that would identify as Evangelicals who believe that all that is

required for us to be promised heaven is to recite a prayer.

To repeat the prayer of a preacher or a Christian somewhere at Bible camp even when you're five

years old.

If you've recited that prayer, it's a magical spell that that promises you heaven, but

that is not the case as many Christians when they give their testimonies they talk about

after that having their decades of Having abandoned the faith and being involved in all

kinds of unrepentant monstrosities.

And they will say that they were saved during those years, but later really just

Made Christ the Lord of their life, but in reality they were never saved until that point where they think

they rededicated themselves.

And the last but not least very briefly because we're nearly out of time God's choice.

Well, I'm real

opportunity of

God's salvation, and we're in Romans.

People are thinking okay.

We're gonna spend our time we get to Romans 9.

It's almost like well, of course.

And what you find in Romans chapter 9.

He tells us that as he deals with Jacob and Esau and other figures

in the history of redemption.

That the mercy of God is not according to our

will but of

mercy on whom I'll have mercy depends not on

human will or exertion.

But I'm God who has mercy you can have a more definitive statement.

And so we want to flesh out how that is.

For God it's God's choice.

Amen, well, I already know that I want to have you back again in the future.

I hope that you share that opinion.

Dr. Curry, I'd love to have you on for I'd love to have you on for the full two hours as you can see how quickly an

hour flies by.

If anybody wants more information on Westminster Theological Seminary in Pennsylvania, remember to go to

WTS edu Wts .edu and if anybody wants to attend the

East Shore Reformed Conference That is being held tomorrow and Saturday in Chestertown, Maryland.

Go to Alliance net org Alliance net org and click

on events.

Thank you so much. Dr. Curry.

I look forward to your return soon and frequently to.

Iron sharpens iron radio.

Thank You Chris.

Pleasure to be with you.

God bless you, brother and don't go away folks because we are going to be returning after this midway

break.

With our second guest and I'm really looking forward to interviewing this guest as well.

For the first time ever.

Dr. Jonathan Gibson on worship on earth as it is in heaven.

If you have a question for Dr. Gibson on worship send it to Chris Arnton at gmail .com

Chris ar n z e n gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least your city and state in your country of residence.

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as host of iron sharpens iron radio.

I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

The church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church

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Hello, my name is Anthony Vino.

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And also the host of the reform rookie calm website.

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I'm pastor Anthony video and thanks for listening.

This pastor Bill Sousa grace church at Franklin here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

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Before I announce my second guest. Dr. Jonathan Gibson who will be discussing

worship on earth as it is in heaven.

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That's also the email address where you can send in a question to our second guest today.

Dr. Jonathan Gibson.

That's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence.

And now it's my honor to introduce to you more formally Dr. Jonathan Gibson who received

his PhD from Cambridge University.

He's a former associate minister at Cambridge Presbyterian Church in England.

He's an author and currently associate professor of Old Testament at Westminster Theological

Seminary here in Pennsylvania.

And he is going to be addressing worship on earth as it is in heaven.

And we're also be announcing the upcoming bold north conference on Reformed

theology in st. Paul, Minnesota, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the first time ever to iron trip enzyme

radio Dr. Johnny Gibson.

Thanks very much.

That's a blessing brother and.

Before we even get into the heart of our discussion on worship on earth

as it is in heaven.

Tell us about the bold north conference on reformed theology where you will be preaching in st.

Paul, Minnesota and That will be November 11th and 12th.

Yes, I'm hoping to speak up in Minnesota on those dates giving three talks

on worship.

The overall title of the conference is worship in honor as it is in heaven.

Worship on earth as it is in heaven.

I'll do three talks.

The first one will be under that title with the subtitle a biblical theology of worship.

I'll be going through the Bible from Genesis to Revelation.

I'm looking for is there a general liturgy a general order of worship

that the Bible actually gives us as It unfolds.

And I think there are Different parts of the Bible that help show us the order of liturgy in a

general pattern.

With Adam on my Eden.

As he's called to worship Israel on Mount Sinai as they're called to worship

Exodus 19 and 20.

With Israel on Mount Zion with King Solomon cockles

five and seven and then also with Jesus but on in

the heavenly Mount Jerusalem.

And Also then in the book of Revelation, that'll be my first talk will be a biblical theology

of worship.

Second one we'll be looking at the history of the Reformation of worship during the 16th

century when the Reformation one of the things that has struck me is

how each of the Reformers actually wrote their own liturgy one they became reformers

were preaching the true gospel and trying to reform the church and

I'll be doing an overview of the different key reformers in different parts of Europe

that wrote their own liturgy and what kind of liturgy they used and why they made various differences changes to the

liturgy and Then third I'll be looking at what how shall we worship today?

How then shall we worship is the title?

What should we do in the light of what we've seen in the Bible and what we how should we worship.

And I'll be giving?

About ten Principles of Christian worship in our third lecture.

So that's what the conference is going to be about.

If people are free and able to come and join us it would be great and We're hoping that we're really good turnout

and then some fun time looking at The scriptures and at history in regards to worshiping our

triune God.

Amen, and I know that we do have listeners in the Minnesota area and in the Wisconsin area and

In those areas where it would be not too arduous to travel to st Paul, so

I hope that anybody who is capable of getting to the mission Orthodox Presbyterian Church of st Paul, Minnesota

on November 11th and 12th will do so and if you want more details on this conference

go to Alliance net org.

Alliance net org forward slash bold Dash north.

That's Alliance net org forward slash bold bold dash north.

And We'll be repeating that God willing before we go off the air.

Well, we have a tradition here on iron sharpens iron radio when we have a first -time

guest such as yourself and Such as our first guest that we interviewed during the first

hour John Curry.

We have that guest give a summary of their salvation testimony that would include the kind of religious

Atmosphere in which they were raised if any and the kind of providential Circumstances our sovereign Lord

raised up in their lives that drew them to himself and saved them.

And I would love to hear your story.

Dr. Gibson, so I was raised

Tanzania.

Wow, my parents my parents were missionaries with MAF Mission Aviation Fellowship.

My father was an airplane engineer.

He would fix the airplanes that would fly pastors and doctors.

I know the remote parts of the Serengeti to minister

to the Maasai.

I didn't remote parts of Africa.

So that was my upbringing.

So I heard the gospel from a young age and.

I.

Think I came to a seething faith by the grace of the Lord in my late primary school

years.

So by the time I was eight nine ten years old we had just returned from Africa when I was seven

years old after my parents serving ten years in Africa and We settled in a good church that taught

us the gospel.

Mrs Gallagher was my Sunday school teacher faithfully taught me the gospel each week.

And I just remember believing it for myself.

I knew as I was growing up in the years before I hadn't yet owned it for myself but I

remember distinctly during my time at this church and coming to a place of knowing that I'm a sinner

knowing that Christ that died for me and risen again to give me new life and Knowing that I needed to

repent of my sins and for my trust in the Lord Jesus.

So that's why I came to faith.

It wasn't really a whirlwind.

I don't really have a day or a date for that but I Believe

the Lord Regenerated me at some time in my late primary school years and then

by his grace We were involved in a good church over the years I was brought up under

signed teaching and preaching of the gospel and edified and encouraged and it was

a Brethren assembly, so we didn't have a pastor.

So they would encourage the man and I started preaching in that church and been sort of preaching

regularly since then.

Yeah, my former pastor at Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle David Campbell who is a

native of Scotland.

He was raised in the Brethren Faith as well, but later came to embrace reformed

theology.

How did you come to embrace the Theology that we call reformed and Calvinist and

the doctrines of sovereign grace and other nicknames.

Yeah, I did a gap year in South Africa between school and university.

So between high school and college as you would say here in the state.

During that gap year in South Africa I met a Baptist pastor who himself had been influenced by Al

Martin.

Yes, about this church in New Jersey and.

This pastor in South Africa Charles the Kivit just faithfully preached the gospel each week.

Did Lectio continue a preaching through books of the Bible.

And I was just very struck by the depth of his preaching and the clarity of doctrine

over that year.

He would hand me books by John Piper by R .C. Sproul.

I would devour them and then by the time I came back to study for my university degree in

Northern Ireland.

I Started picking up reformed books and when I read them I didn't really have a problem with what was in them

because this pastor sort of taught me so well and.

So that was my journey into reformed theology and then over the years I just kept studying and reading, you know, you read one

book and you see this author refers to this other author.

So you go get his book it sort of snowballs from there.

Well, praise God.

Now, let us enter into our subject worship on earth as it is in heaven.

I have probably I don't know this for certain.

But I think there's a great likelihood the subject of worship has been discussed on my

program more times than any other subject.

One of the reasons is is that worship is so often tragically a

topic of very heated debate that can bring great tension

To the surface between brothers in Christ.

It has divided many churches cause church splits.

Cause people to leave a church to attend another even sometimes when

you have somebody Who has been convinced of the the truths of reformed theology

They will leave a faithful Reformed church to go to another church that

has quote -quote better worship in their minds.

And they will sacrifice The the teaching of the reformed faith in order

to be involved in worship that is more pleasing to them and Why

is it do you think that this issue even amongst not only Your your mainstream

evangelicals who may believe in the inerrancy of Scripture, but even amongst reformed Christians who

disagree over all sorts of issues that involve worship.

Even those who believe in the regulative principle are not in lockstep

agreement with each other.

You have those that Claim that in order to embrace the regulative principle of worship You

must sing the Psalms only and some would even go Farther and say you must sing the

Psalms without the accompaniment of musical instruments.

So why is it that there's so much division do you believe in the body of Christ over this issue?

Well, first of all just to say I think it's quite sad that there is because

creatures on God's earth to worship him and As you say that we start fighting over high we ought to

do it.

I think it comes down to interpretation and Differing interpretations and how people interpret

worship in the Bible and how we ought to worship God.

But I think sometimes there's maybe The ditches on both sides of the road.

The one ditch is that people don't realize that the Bible does give us a template for worship.

To worship God and principles.

This is what I'll be dealing with in the conference on my third talk.

What principles of Christian worship can we?

You know apply today from the Bible and from church history in the Reformation and The ditch on the other side of the

road is that we are too strict with those principles that they themselves become

sort of laws.

That if we don't keep them, we're somehow not Christian or we're not godly or we're not worshiping God.

The way he would want us to.

I think there's a balance somewhere.

So I agree with the regulative principle, but it's how you interpret that and how you apply it.

Which is important.

So I think I think we should Luther said and

Calvin and Cranmer said in regards to worship.

There should be charity and in all things and You know, we should love the truth.

They'll be charitable as well.

Interestingly Calvin and Cranmer in their writing of their liturgy said that you know each

culture and country and context will express worship a little bit differently

and What's interesting when you compare the liturgies of the Reformation and a friend and I mark urns He put

together a book called Reformation worship liturgies from the past for the present when we put that

together.

What we saw was there's quite a diversity even among the reformers as to what element

They use and in what order now, of course, they generally have the same elements of prayer Bible reading

offerings singing etc.

But the order of the elements is quite varied.

There wasn't one particular order of a liturgy that the reformers demanded or you

know Said everybody should follow.

And I think that's helpful because you know that there isn't one order of liturgy set down in the scriptures.

There's some Flexibility there and so and so I think that's important to acknowledge that and when you

study church history It's one way to actually perhaps loosen some of the tightness that there has been

in some quarters about Vigorously holding to what something is the only way to

interpret the regulative principle.

So I think that's interesting.

For example, John Calvin they sang The Apostles Creed so even though people

say well sang the Psalms because he has a Genevan Psalter written.

Well, actually there's evidence that he sang the Apostles Creed.

Wow.

I did not know that service.

Yeah, yeah, and also, you know, there's the him I greet thee who my sure Redeemer arts, which people believe

was written by Calvin and so You know you study church history.

You learn that things are sometimes more messy than you think.

But I think if we just go with general principles God is holy Transcendent is the

creator worthy of our worship.

We are creatures and we should give him reverent joyful worship He calls us to

hear from him in his word To pray to him to sing to him.

Then you can't go too far wrong.

If you keep those general print.

Well, you said you believe in the regulative principle.

Perhaps you could give us a definition.

For the sake of those who are Unfamiliar with that term and

It's basically I understand that the Bible is to be in fact even more so the New Testament

is to be our blueprint For all we do in worship.

Not that we don't incorporate some things from the Old Testament like the singing of Psalms, of course.

But that is a command in the New Testament.

Psalms hymns and spiritual songs are to be some.

But tell us a good working definition of the regulative principle and how you believe that this

when rightly practiced and rightly taught could stop a lot of the

Divisions and problems within the church today in regard to worship.

Yeah, so just generally speaking at the risk of there's the normative

principle that you worship God and you don't do anything that he does not that he

Expressly commands.

That's called the normative principle.

So you worship God and don't do anything that he expressly Forbid I should say.

The regulative principle is that you only do what he expressly command.

So it's a little bit more narrow than the normative principle.

This is the principle that Presbyterians and reformed churches would adhere to that you worship God according

to what he has commanded.

So if he hasn't commanded that you don't do it.

And.

That's being the general principle now the question then is well, what has he commanded and

Which parts of the Bible do we use for what he has commanded and that's where you get into different views

a variety of Interpretations even within that school.

I believe the first use of the regulative principle as a phrase as a term was actually

only 1946.

Wow that the OPC John that

or he used it and that is in the confessional Presbyterian said

that that is the earliest known use of the term that regulative principle.

Now just because that was the only time that term is used doesn't mean the principle wasn't in play.

Westminster Confession of Faith talks about only worshipping God according to how he is prescribed to be

worshipped in the scriptures.

So the principle was there even from the Westminster divines and also from Calvin.

The classic text to support it is Leviticus number

Leviticus chapter 10 with Nadab and Abihu the sons of Aaron who offer profane

fire before the Lord.

Unauthorized fire and God strikes them down and death and says to Aaron they offered

fire that I did not command so

forbade but the regulative principle says they offered fire that he did

not command and.

And so there's more biblical basis perhaps for supporting the regulative principle than the normative principle

a man called Richard Hooker in the Anglican Advocated for the normative

principle.

The Puritans were those who would have advocated for the regulative principle.

I think if I'm honest one of the sad things

the discussion is often the regulative principle and even a biblical text

like Nadab and Abihu people fail to understand these texts and

this principle in a biblical theological framework and what I mean by that is all of the

scriptures point to Christ the whole of the Old Testament and the New Testament point to Christ and.

So this principle if it's present, which I believe it is in Leviticus 10 and other passages.

The way I describe it is the regulative principle points to a regulative person.

What the regulative principle is teaching us ultimately the essence of it like Jesus condenses

the essence of the law of Moses into two commandments love God with all your heart.

Love your neighbor as yourself.

The essence of the regulative principle can be condensed down to you worship God as he is

prescribed in his.

Now that ultimately.

And you don't worship God any other way.

You can the way he has expressly described in his word and for

the Old Testament saints in Israel that way was through the tabernacles etc.

There was ways they were allowed to approach God.

There were ways that they were not allowed to approach God they had to approach God through a sacrifice in a priest and.

And it had to be the sacrifice and the priest that God himself had ordained and not that man had invented.

And so when Nadav and Abihu approach God with profane fire, they're doing something God did not command.

They're doing it their own way not God's way.

And so that's what the principle is teaching us.

God is to be worshipped as God himself Says he's to be worshipped and not any other

way.

Now, where does that find it?

Where does that find its fulfillment it find that finds its fulfillment in Christ?

Who is the high priest who is the perfect once -for -all sacrifice and what the regulative

principle?

Understood in a biblical theological framework is doing is it's teaching us that the only way to worship

God is through Christ.

Jesus said I'm the way the truth in the life.

No one comes to the father but by me He said to the woman at the well that the father is looking for a

people to worship him in spirit and in truth I believe the spirit there's the Holy Spirit and the truth is

himself the way the truth the life and.

So the rest teaching us that we can only worship God through

Christ.

That he alone is the only way of salvation.

He's the only mediator between God and man.

Now there are other principles that then come out from that because Christ is the head of his church.

He's to rule his church through his word and he is prescribed in his word how he is to be worshipped through

various means of prayers Psalms the reading of Scripture the

preaching of Scripture that the Lord's Supper and the sacrament of baptism.

But these are the ways the church functions in its worship of God when it meets together it

participates in these elements of worship.

So there are those other aspects of the regulative principle, but often it is bypassed

bypasses Christ and just goes from regulative principle in the Old Testament the regulative principle in the New Testament

and misses the regulative person of worship that is Christ regulates our worship.

Christ is the true worshipper in the heavenly places.

He has gone up to conduct worship as our prophet preaching the presence of God.

And so I think that's a helpful thing that can help us stay focused on what worship is all about.

It's worshiping God the Father through his son the Lord Jesus Christ in the grief and power of his

amen.

We're gonna take our final break right now.

We'll be much shorter than the last break.

If anybody has a question Please send it to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

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We have a listener who's remaining anonymous who has a question for you

Dr. Gibson the anonymous listener says I'm remaining anonymous because

I am very disheartened by the rising up of

Entertainment even among reformed Christian churches, and I

understand that we should try to beautifully worship our Lord and

Try to be as gifted as possible in the way that we worship him.

But I cannot help but think that it has really been a downward spile into what

would be pure entertainment there seems to be a loss of an understanding of

the gravity of what made that nadeb and a by Hugh did and It is

viewed as something that would never Be done by God today in the new covenant.

I understand that God is not going to devour and flame People who are

worshiping him in an inappropriate way, but at the same time is not God's attitude

towards man's innovations and worship just as Wrathful as it was

in the Old Covenant.

Keep the laugh is not God's attitude

towards the innovations of Worship the innovations of man in worship

just as wrathful as it was in the Old Covenant.

In other words is God viewing us doing whatever we want to do in worship service

the same with the same displeasure as he did in the Old Covenant, and I'm assuming that the

the writer of the question would mean that Obviously we're not going to have temple

prostitutes in our worship or things like that that are overtly wicked but

people think very often and perhaps even the majority of Christians today or

professing Christians think that creativity and innovation and Coming up with our own

ways to worship God as long as those things are not in and of themselves sinful.

That it's completely appropriate.

That's why you have things like liturgical dance, and you have other things going on in worship

services puppet theater, and I could go on and on so.

Is there a difference between the way God views worship from the Old to the New Testament?

In attitude that is

not honoring so yes the attitude of God

that he did not

probably pleased with.

I think the He you know does he strike people

down in death.

Seeing someone recently being struck down on the stage with the band.

And yet, you know yes, I don't think that could be as pleasing to him.

But the manifestation of his wrath would be different.

I think under the new dispensation.

That it was under the old under the old there was a more immediate direct Judgment of God in the

moment you know who's that holds out his hand to stop the ark from falling and he gets struck down.

Now that now that gonna be who offer their profane fire.

They get struck down.

I think the judgment of God.

Me.

But it's still a judgment of God.

And maybe that he removes his blessing from the church.

It may be that he relieves the church to him to itself rather than comes

congregation.

All of those things take place today, but now how do you respond to

those?

Who will say?

That they are incorporating things in their worship service that have a biblical basis

Even though they are not Specifically commands in the New Testament and an example of that would be.

I've been having a lot of conversations over the years with our brothers and sisters in

the conservative reformed confessional Anglican movement and

There is as you may know some heated debate even amongst those that are

adherers to the adherence to the 39 articles of religion

the Older editions of the book of common prayer and so on and you have these brethren

having very sharp disagreement over things like incense and You will have

even Calvinistic Conservative non Anglo -Catholic

Congregations using incense and they say well they did it in the Old Testament, but isn't that Trotting in

dangerous territory just like native and abide you because they were using incense but not exactly as they were commanded to.

Yeah, I think for me that would be one where I would be encouraging my anglican to

consider

the real Actual physical fragrant

was a type of Christ was pointing to Christ that he is the fragrance of

God.

That he is the fragrance of a sacrifice to God that he is pleasing to God and that through him we

offer the fragrance of our sacrifice of praise.

And so I think I would be encouraging our Anglican brothers to consider That you know, they've

missed the point of the fragrance pointing to Christ.

I think Christ is the answer to a lot of these worship to be as I mentioned earlier with the regulative

principle.

Even people who hold to the regulative principle can do so in a very non Christological way

and I think that if we can keep Christ at the center of our worship of Christ at the center of our Hermeneutic of how we

interpret these actually we can a worship God or right and be resolved a lot of our interpretive

differences.

That's where that's what I would do with That among our Anglican brothers.

I would be gently encouraging them to consider high That isn't prescribed in the New Testament

precisely because it's been fulfilled in Christ.

Amen, and in the time that we have left Why don't you go through some of those things that you

believe are essential elements for the gathered body of Christ?

To include in their worship or actually to be correctly labeled as or identified as

worship.

Yeah, so I think the worship should begin with a call to worship.

I Don't think worship should begin with prayer even in many reformed circles.

I'm amazed how many church services begin with prayer.

But what that communicates is that we?

Initiate worship not God, but it's God who calls us to worship through his word.

And so I think worship should always begin with a

reading of Scripture thing like psalm 147 praise the

Lord it's good to sing praises to our God for it is pleasant.

Then we respond that

can either be a prayer of adoration or a hymn or a psalm.

I think the reading of the law should be present in worship.

So either the Ten Commandments or The first and the great second commandment that Jesus spoke

about love God love you then following the reading of the law I think it's important to have a confession of

sin.

This can either be done by the minister or in my view.

It's better done as a congregation as a whole confessing sin together.

Again, one of the things that came out in the reformation liturgy project.

I did reformation worship Liturgies from the past for the present one of the things that

came out of that was that it was amazing.

How many of the reformers wrote prayers of confession that the congregation?

And so I think that's an important element of worship confessing our sin, and there's the assurance of

pardon.

We hear the words of the gospel in response To having confessed our sins that we're assured that

if we're repentant that God has forgiven them in Christ.

I think we can see parts of the New Testament that speak about.

That the reveal that there were creeds of different forms like Colossians 1 15 to 20.

Like the confession in 1 Timothy 3 God manifested in the flesh.

These were short succinct summaries of the gospel and I think it's good to affirm

some of those in the church Service Calvin etc.

Always said the Apostles Creed in fact all the reformers I think nearly all of them said a creed in

their church service the Apostles creed.

And I think that would be a case of just saying that we're affirming this the the faith once for all delivered to the

same.

Then there are prayers prayers for illumination as we hear God Speak to us.

There's praise element where we sing psalms hymns and spiritual songs.

I think it's important to always sing a psalm at least one psalm in a church service.

But also sing hymns of the church from the early church through the

Reformation period the Puritan period 19th century and even contemporary

hymns that are good quality hymns that exalt God and are

focused on Christ.

And then there's the offerings there's giving our tithes and offerings to the Lord.

I think it's an important element of a church service more prayers.

Intercessory prayers also known as the pastoral prayer during the present our requests before God or

supplication.

I think it's important to say the Lord's Prayer every Sunday every Lord's Day.

And so I think that a time to do that is at the end of the intercessory prayers.

Where's a congregation then there's an opportunity for a closing hymn for more praise and I should

say the sermon obviously After the prayer of Illumina here the scriptures read

Expounded and then after that the prayer of intercess the Lord's Prayer and it is followed by a

benediction where either the Aaronic benediction is given the Lord bless you keep you

or The New Testament benediction of the grace of our Lord Jesus the fellowship of the Lord.

So I think those are the key elements of worship that should comprise it now.

Do you think that?

One of the main problems with worship in the modern church.

In fact, it may be it may be a problem that has existed All along

and some degree or another.

Is that?

There are Christians who wrongly believe that

the most important thing For a Christian to do is

to reach the lost with the gospel and Therefore we must tailor

our worship services to be pleasing to the lost So that they

will more likely Enter into our presence and in great numbers in order for them to

hear the gospel.

Now, obviously.

Mm -hmm.

Bringing the lost or evangelizing the lost with the gospel is a very

important duty of the faithful Christian.

But isn't it lost?

To a great degree that bringing God praise honor and glory is

the first and foremost priority of the gathered people of God.

And Even though evangelism does bring praise honor and glory to God

the evangelism and and trying to Appeal to the lost to

be comfortable in our midst so that they will hear The the gospel preached that

as important as it is is not the most important thing and should not dictate.

How we worship God?

Yes, I think the public gathering of is

14 where Paul says, you know, if an unbeliever is among you, so he's assuming

that time.

But the primary purpose of the gathering of God's people on the Lord says not evangelism, but worship.

I Think evangelism is really best done during the week.

That said I think the service can still be evangelistic because it's proclaiming the gospel.

It's showing people that we're sinners that we repent of our sins.

Teaching people of a Savior who is willing to forgive sinners.

So they can hear the gospel to be adapted for the unbeliever.

I do think the service should be done in a way that's intelligible to the unbeliever.

Paul makes that point in 1 Corinthians 14 that prophecies are being given and people are speaking in tongues but an

unbelievers there the Prophecy or tongues is not interpreted than the unbeliever doesn't know what they're talking about.

And so he wants the unbeliever to be able to understand the gospel, but we know that the gospel is an offense

to those Who are perishing.

It's the aroma of death to some but the aroma of life to others and so so long as we are

Worshiping God in a way that's intelligible.

Understandable to the unbeliever.

I don't think we need to do much more adaptation to facilitate them being present among us.

Can you repeat the title of the book that you were addressing about the liturgies in the church?

Yes, it's called Reformation worship

affirmation worship the subtitle

liturgies friend and I mark R &G who did it together.

He's

in a

translated 20

Reformation

era church in

London.

A number of people.

He had their

amazon .com or Wtsbooks .com Reformation worship

the money if you really want to get an insight into how the reformers

worship.

Amen.

Well, I want to get a hold of that and I wanted to have you back on the program for a full two -hour discussion

because we are out of time it went by far too quickly and.

Remember folks if you want to attend the conference the bold north conference on reform theology

I just go to Alliance net org Alliance net org click on events and scroll

down to bold North conference on reform theology November 11th and the 12th.

Thank you so much for being such an extraordinary guest Dr. Gibson and I look forward to your return.

I want to thank everybody who listened.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior

Than you are a sinner.