Why Write Potter's Freedom? & more of Why Witness to Mormons?

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Second Timothy 2 15 be diligent to present yourself approved to God a worker who does not need to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth

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Alpha and Omega ministries presents the dividing line radio broadcast The Apostle Peter commanded all

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Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give this answer with gentleness and reverence

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Your host is dr James White director of Alpha and Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church If you'd like to talk with dr.

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White, you can call now by dialing 602 274 1360. That's 602 274 1360 or if you're out of the

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Metro Phoenix dialing area, it's one eight eight eight five five zero thirteen sixty That's one triple eight five five zero thirteen sixty and now with today's topic.

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Here's James White Good afternoon, welcome to dividing line. My name is James White It's a beautiful Saturday afternoon unless you're trying to get across Camelback Road That is if you're out and about I would avoid 24th

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Street in Camelback Because three lanes trying to get through one lane means we're rushing a little bit today

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But we're all here and of course We're rushing because it has already become a very busy week for us

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Many of you know who are listening here locally or who listen long distance That we began our outreach at the

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LDS Easter pageant last evening We almost outnumbered the Mormons last night, which is

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Fairly unusual. I don't I don't think a lot of folks realized that the LDS Easter pageant got an early start this year and So there was a a pretty small group that showed up for the

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Easter pageant last night But I'm expecting a few more folks tonight and then next week

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The normal week that the Easter pageant is running. I'm sure will be a very very busy.

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They are actually claiming or shooting for anyways 200 ,000 people 200 ,000 people in attendance over the seven nights.

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That would be about twenty eight thousand a night and last night they had about Four Gonna have to have to make up somewhere along the line big time as far as the numbers go, but It was a good opportunity to sort of get the old feet wet to get warmed up again

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We have some new folks tracting with us And so it was a little bit easier to get started without The huge numbers of for example young people walking by and things like that Distributed a lot of literature spent a lot of time with Roman soldiers

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And they're actually sending sending Roman soldiers in full

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Roman soldier getup including swords out to the main corner that we stand at to distribute programs and so, of course, we we talked with them and shared with them their

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LDS and Had a good time doing that and actually it helped us distribute more tracks too.

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So that's okay with us We'll do that if if that's what it takes so we'll be out there again this evening and Then we'll be out there

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Tuesday through Saturday evenings next week, please pray for us pray for our our safety our wisdom in how to handle situations as they arise pray for the tracks as we

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Distribute them that they would be taken. They'd be read that follow -up would take place and the

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Lord would be pleased to Glorify himself both in keeping people out of deception as well as drawing those who've been deceived out of that deception and Coming to know the true

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Lord Jesus Christ as well And so we hope that you will remember us if you can't be involved with us

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Directly out there. You can pray for us. You can help to support the ministry. This is Something that does cost some money

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Poor Rich Pierce has been putting in 13 14 hour days in the print shop in fact

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Some of you have been trying to call the ministry and have discovered that no one's answering the phone

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Basically in the afternoons and that's because a rich is sitting in front of a offset printing press keeping it running or Fixing it when it stops running underneath in contorted positions, he is the jack -of -all -trades and master of many of them and so, please

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Support us as well because we've had to do some repairs on the machine this week and it's been interesting folks

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That's that's all I can say about that. I am in our worldwide chat room at the moment I'm also downloading a well instant messenger while we're speaking

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I don't know that I'm gonna get it set up today or not But we're doing the best that that we possibly can

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I do want to talk a little bit more about the pageants today but I want to start out a

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Little bit like like last week and offer somewhat of an apologetic and an apologia to use the the term as it was used back in the days of The the

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Greek Empire a little bit of a defense last week I read some of the endorsements for my upcoming book the

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Potter's freedom, which should be out in less than a month now We are hoping to have it available as soon as I get to Long Island on May 12th

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Some of you might know that I'm headed to Long Island for our annual trek out there for the fifth annual

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Catholic Protestant debate this year on justification by faith and if you're praying for us while we're in Mesa I hope you'll pray toward that end as well.

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I have much Much that needs to be done between now and when I leave for Long Island and it's difficult to get a lot of reading and studying done during the

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Easter pageant because you're Sort of hard to read books while you're talking to folks and standing for a number of hours out in Mesa So you might add that to the list of things to pray for in regards to the ministry

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But the the book is to be out right in the middle of May and I knew when

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I wrote the book that the Book would result in a number of people

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Basically making the comment How dare you? How dare you

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Respond to an icon of evangelicalism in our nation.

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Dr. Norman Geisler How dare you? Respond to him and lie the fact that You've talked about to your cordial relationship with him in the past.

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He's been kind enough to endorse your books Who in the world are you to respond to Norman Geisler on this issue?

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And does the issue really matter that much? I got an email over the past a couple of days that really expressed amazement

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That we had posted the endorsements that we've posted and that we would invest the kind of energy

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Into the topic that obviously we have invested and so I'd like to offer a brief

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Apologetic before we get into our topic today a defense For why we've taken the time here on this radio program and why

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I've taken the time to Write a book. I've put another book off that I think is gonna be very important to book on justification by faith

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Just to write this and so someone might well say You've wasted your time it's not that important an issue and It's an issue.

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We all can agree to disagree on and in reality Wouldn't it have been better just to maybe send dr.

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Geisler a letter where you disagreed with him and just just let it go in silence, just just forget about The issue and and if someone asks you you can personally tell them why you disagree with what?

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Dr. Geisler said in his book, but why make this such a public issue? and Why me?

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Why would James White respond to Norman Geisler? Well, I'd like to start off by saying that I would have been a hypocrite if I had not

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I Would have been a hypocrite and in fact, I would like to suggest that it is absolutely consistent with how

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I have pursued my ministry for 917 years now to respond to dr.

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Geisler The reason I think is is very obvious First and foremost,

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I'm an elder in a reformed Baptist Church and in that reformed Baptist Church, you will hear first and foremost the balance exegesis of the scriptures and You will hear us speak often of the sovereignty of God and speak often in defense of the doctrines of grace and since chosen but free identifies the doctrines of grace as an unfortunate belief system an erroneous belief system a belief system based upon eisegesis of key biblical texts a

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Tradition of men really doesn't use that terminology but since it says there are in fact in regards to teachings such as faith being a gift from God a

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Almost no biblical text city would even begin to suggest such a thing. Where did we get this type of thing?

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well seemingly because of Traditions that we've imbibed whatever the source might be chosen but free says that the reformed faith leads to ramifications such as a

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Diminishment and evangelical zeal even though interestingly enough were the ones out in Mesa sharing the gospel of folks right now

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A diminishment and intercessory prayer, which again I identify as an error because when we intercede for someone

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We believe our God can actually save that person outside of that person's somehow enabling God to do so But the statements in the book are very very strong in denying the biblical nature of the reformed faith

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Secondly Dr. Geisler's position on key issues in regards to the nature of grace

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So closely parallels and in most situations is identical with The semi

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Pelagian ism of the Roman Catholic Church that I have attacked publicly in debates with people such as Jerry Matitix Timothy Staples Mitchell Pacwa and Robertson Janice That I would simply be a hypocrite if I were to engage in debates base my entire presentation upon the sufficiency and perfection of the work of Christ in The atonement the sufficiency of God's grace in actually saving

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I would be a glowing hypocrite if I did those things in public with the Roman Catholics and then Allowed for dr.

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Geisler to publish a book or anyone for that matter to publish a book wherein they say Well God's grace is necessary, but God's grace works synergistically with our free will

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If I were to take that position on and Deny it in the debates with Roman Catholic apologists

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Then how can I not at the exact same time? When dr.

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Geisler says those words point out the error in that situation as well So I believe that I must be consistent.

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I believe that I have to respond When the very fundamentals of the

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Reformation come under attack Even when they come under attack from a man who is by all accounts and by my personal experience a very nice man and Yet this presentation has dr.

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Geisler's authority attached to it And therefore the very people that I seek to minister to are going to be the ones looking at the same information and coming to the opposite conclusions that I am and So since I did offer my services

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To dr. Geisler in the writing of his book to review the manuscript to send him information

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I sent him my books. I I tried to make myself as available as possible. I Felt that it was absolutely necessary that I write a response that it be a respectful

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Response as it is but that it be a very forceful response because the issues are so definitional

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And so it's not that I think that I'm anybody special In point of fact,

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I would say that it's best that I did it because I am nobody special That it's not a matter of my being

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In a situation where I'm some super -duper person. I'm not Instead it's since I don't have any baggage to carry along in the sense of trying to keep a certain constituency happy Then I can address the issue in the most full and fair way and so we've done that that's what the book is all about And it's interesting that there would already be individuals who are dealing

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With the potter's freedom without ever having read it or even dr. Geisler's book And so I would just invite anyone who is wondering why in the world would you do this take the time to read them both?

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Take the time to read them both take the time to consider what the fundamental issues are and if you really feel

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That whether God's grace works Synergistically that is it's necessary, but not sufficient or whether it works monergistically

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That is it's both necessary and sufficient if you think that the Reformation itself was pretty much just a big

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Misunderstanding that could have been avoided Then you're not going to agree with me that this was something that needed to be done

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But if you feel that those are absolutely fundamental issues then obviously,

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I'm going to hope that you will conclude that we have done the right thing and what we've done and That the church as a whole will be much better for it and that is of course our desire

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So with that brief apologetic offered what I would like to to do today is

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To do something very basic something that I hope will help many of those who are listening and it is something that is in regards to what we're doing out in Mesa what we do when we share with the

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LDS people or what we do and we share with anyone and That is last evening in in sharing with one of the

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LDS people one of the issues that came up was the issue of Why do you feel it's so important?

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Why do you feel it's so important to deal with Mormonism and to stand out here in the midst of all these?

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these individuals who Have worked so hard to put together the the

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LDS Easter pageant and the families that have come together Why are you out here proclaiming your gospel at someone else's meeting?

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and in essence The fundamental response that we provide to people is that we disagree at the most fundamental and foundational levels of what religious faith is

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I would like to read you the words of Joseph Smith now

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Joseph Smith is dead of course Joseph Smith has been dead for a very long time and So someone might say yeah, well, you know get with something modern, you know get with something

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That's a little bit more up -to -date The problem is Joseph Smith himself was the founding prophet of the

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Mormon Church and as such defined the very theology of the

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Mormon Church now Joseph Smith right before his death preached the single most famous sermon of his entire life and in my study of the teachings of the

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General Authorities of the LDS Church since 1845 all the way through to the modern era and I include in that not only the sermons but the books they've written and the official publications of the

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LDS Church and most importantly as I read last week in Manuals and publications that are specifically designed for Individuals to read within the church in other words.

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This is the doctrine the teachings the Mormon Church gives to its own people Not just what is is produced for those outside but for its own people then

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That body of literature as a whole Demonstrates to me beyond question that the

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King Follett funeral discourse while it is not a quote -unquote part of LDS scripture Has taken on the level of scriptural authority over the past 170 some -odd years 60 years

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It's constant repetition By the General Authorities of the church the fact that those

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General Authorities in teaching doctrine Keep going back to it and say as the

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Prophet Joseph Smith said as the Prophet Joseph Smith said Over and over and over again the fact that that happens

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Indicates to me and I am not alone in believing this that these words Carry the same type of weight as anything you'd read and for example, you know first Nephi or whatever it might be

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And so here's what Joseph Smith said listen very carefully This is from the times and seasons of August 15th 1844

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And now now I'm gonna read even faster because I know what the first caller is all about Sorry Todd we'll get to you in just a moment.

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I'm very interested in hearing what you have to say Joseph Smith said I have been requested to speak by his friends.

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That is King Follett who had been died who had been died The English language is so much fun who had died

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Actually a tub of rock fell upon him in a pit. That is not that's a pretty quick way to go

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Anyways, it's it's probably probably never knew what hit him But anyways, this was preached at the funeral and I go back to the quote

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I've been requested to speak by his friends and relatives But in as much as there are a great many in this congregation who live in this city as well as elsewhere

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Who have lost friends? I feel disposed to speak on the subject in general and offer you my ideas so far as I have ability and So far as I shall be inspired by the

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Holy Spirit to dwell on the subject God himself was once a man as we are now as it and is an exalted man and sits enthroned in yonder heavens that is the great secret if the veil were rent today and the great

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God who holds this world in its orbit and who upholds all things and All things by his power was to make himself visible

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I say if you were to see him today You would see him like a man in form like yourselves and all the person image in every form as a man

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For I am going to tell you how God came to be God We have imagined and supposed that God was

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God from all eternity I will refute that idea and take away the veil so that you may see

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It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know that we may converse with him

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As one man converses with another and that he was once a man like us Yea, the God himself the father of us all dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did and I will show it from the

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Bible Here then is eternal life to know the only wise and true God and you have got to learn how to be gods

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Yourselves. Yes, I said the word gods and it is capitalized in the text and to be kings and priests to God the same as all gods

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Plural capital G have done before you Namely by going from one small degree to another and from a small capacity to a great one from grace to grace from exaltation to exaltation until you attained the resurrection of the dead and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings and to sit in glory as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power

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What is it to inherit the same power the same glory and the same exaltation until you arrive at the station of a

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God capital G and Ascend the throne of eternal power the same as those who have gone before If you want to read that for yourself, it's found in Joseph Fielding Smith's book teachings the

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Prophet Joseph Smith pages 342 to 347 and that book is available at your local

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LDS bookstore Now what are the things that we need to remember in regards to what has been said here?

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Joseph Smith taught first that God was once a man The secondly

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God is now an exalted man with a physical body In fact, the LDS scriptures say the God the father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as any man doctrine covenant section 130

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Thirdly that we must learn how to be gods ourselves clearly Joseph Smith taught that there were many gods or as Mormon Apostle Orson Pratt said if we should take a million worlds like this and number their particles

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We should find that there are more gods than there are particles of matter in those worlds that's journal discourses volume 2 page 345

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Obviously other beliefs that are part of the Mormon concept of God include a denial of such historic Christian beliefs as monotheism

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There is only one God and the eternal nature of God God has always been God and the biblical view of man.

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God is unique and we are not gods nor are we meant to become gods now folks

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That is why No matter how nice the Mormon people might be no matter how

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Big they grow The Mormon people need to be evangelized

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Because a God who was once a man lived on other planets Who was exalted the status of a

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God? Is not a God who can bring salvation Immediately as soon as I say that the

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Mormon says well, what about Jesus Christ? he was once a man who lived on this planet and my response very quickly is

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The gospel is not that men can become gods, but that God became a man in the person of Jesus Christ the incarnation

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Was not something that God that the Lord Jesus had to do to become a God He was not going through the eternal law of progression where you start off as a spirit child and then enter into a mortal probation and then you leave the mortal probation and become exalted as a

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God and then have Have children spiritual children start the whole process all over again except now you're

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God the incarnation was a one -time and unique event and So The point is that God did not have to go through some mortal probation to become exalted as a

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God And we must realize that in Mormonism The God who is worshipped was once a man who lived on another planet now some

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Mormons say That he was a savior figure on that planet. So he like Jesus would not have been

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Subject To sin he was not imperfect Now, I don't see that in the writings of the early

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LDS leaders. I don't see that in Joseph Smith I don't see that in Brigham Young. I Think that's speculative, but there are

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Mormons who desirous of avoiding The idea that God the

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Father was once a sinner Say well, we don't know that he was a sinner because he might have been the

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Jesus figure on another planet There is one problem with that if we take that viewpoint

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Then does it follow that Jesus will get to have his own planet someday and be the God the father of that planet

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Some have speculated that will in fact happen. I Know one Mormon individual who told me over lunch one day and and we're not talking here about some fringe

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Element type Mormon. We're talking about individual here who is very well read that he firmly believes that Jesus during the

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Millennium will be able to marry and have children so that he too can gain the fullness of everlasting exaltation

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But I can point out where early LDS leaders did parallel God the father with our own state that is that he was a fallen man and that he was redeemed on that planet and And so God the father of this world is an exalted man who has been redeemed and now takes a position that is his and That we can follow in that same path.

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We can be redeemed We can live a life that is worthy of exaltation become exalt and become the

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God the father figure In the planet that we organize sometime in the future

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So Is that the God of Scripture Well Christians automatically say no, of course it isn't.

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Well, how would you demonstrate that? Where would you go? Let's say you are talking to a

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Mormon. They say okay you say that this this is untrue. Well, then where do you go? Well, we have a number of tracks that address this.

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I'm looking at one called one God or many Is Mormonism Christian has has

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Sections in regards to this issue, but where would you go in response to this?

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When you think about it this is one of the more difficult issues to handle and it's only difficult because the fact that This is about the only group that we have to deal with this issue on in other words the standard

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Christian apologist is normally dealing with issues like Well the deity of Christ Not having to defend the idea

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There's only one true God not having to defend against the assertion that we in point of fact are gods and embryos

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We're of the same species as God and things like that And so we face a difficult issue for many people at that point

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There is a 100 verse memorization system posted on our website at www .aomin

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.org www .aomin .org There is a large number of verses that is a part of that hundred verse memorization system that deals with biblical monotheism and especially how to present those verses in a context that is most meaningful to the

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LDS person and as time allows we will Take the time to deal with those passages in the second half of the program today

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Looking at the phone lines, however, the audience wants to discuss what we talked about at the beginning of the hour

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And that is the subject of the potter's freedom. And so we'll be taking your phone calls one triple eight five five zero thirteen sixty

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If you're local six, oh two two, seven four thirteen sixty and we'll be right back right after this come back the dividing line

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It is a beautiful Saturday afternoon here in Phoenix, Arizona, and I do believe summer is around the corner

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That Sun is climbing ever higher in the sky The grass is getting parched ever faster and that just seems to be the way it's gonna work

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And it's just how it is out here in Phoenix those of you listening from long distance Pretty soon.

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We'll be talking to you about how it's 115 degrees outside But then in December we'll be talking to you about how it's 72 degrees outside So you've got it, you know take a little bit and give a little bit.

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That's just the way it works I'm looking at my screen here. And I the only one that I can sure

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I can go to is to Todd in Charlotte, North Carolina on the other side of the world.

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How you doing Todd? Good. How are you today? I'm doing quite well Just came across your website and found out about it.

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So I thought I'd give you a call I've never heard of your ministry before until I heard your Interview today on WHVN here in Charlotte and that was with buddy

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Boone Yeah, I wasn't familiar with his name I listen to the radio session all the time I also heard dr. Geisler's interview a couple of weeks ago, right?

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I'm currently listening to that interview. Oh you are Yes, I have it in my in my vehicle as I'm driving around right now

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Yeah, well, I've just got the shortened version of it, but I used to go to the

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Same church that dr. Geisler and the Southern Evangelical Seminary are a part of mm -hmm

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Which church is that McKee Road Baptist Church? Okay here in Charlotte and I was saved about in 1994 through the

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Expository preaching ministry of Rick Blackwood here in Charlotte He's now moved to Florida, but it's a bad.

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It's a Southern Baptist Church and Over the years. I met a good friend of mine who went to Masters College In In California right

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John Carther and I have become more and more reformed in my well I mean basically

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I am reformed in my view. Also, I'm currently attending another Baptist Church now

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And I just think it's such a blessing I was reading your website

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About the non -traditional education and I was interested in In doing something like that and it just seems like God's just thrown this in my lap

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Well be careful. Sometimes grenades get thrown. Yeah. Yeah, I fully understand now you heard both

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Interviews and have you have you taken a look at chosen, but for you? No, I haven't friend of mine bought the book at work and he's he's currently got it

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He is he is from a freewill Baptist Church, so I don't have to go any further than that We have quite a few disagreements

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So, yeah, but I really liked your comment and It's just a shame to me that Someone of dr.

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Geisler's Ability I don't understand why What what's the big problem with?

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God being sovereign and and choosing people. I just don't understand it Well, that's one of the the things

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I attempted to express to someone today who had written to us and was Unhappy about the strength of some of the words found in the endorsements on our website, and I tried to explain to him that I I believe that Philip Johnson the executive director of grace to you

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I think it put it very bluntly and clearly and that is This is not the type of book one would expect

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Norman Geisler to write and that's because Many of us do respect the things that he's written in the past.

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He is a man of talent a man of learning and therefore We hold him to a higher standard if this was you know

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I see this kind of argumentation and the very type of argumentation dr. Geisler uses on the internet all the time

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And I pretty much ignore it Because the individuals who are using it are individuals that I wouldn't expect them to do anything more

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But dr. Geisler isn't in that boat We we I think are right and holding to him to a higher standard and therefore when he misrepresents the reformed perspective when he provides

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Isagetical interpretation of Scripture, then I think that if we are our lovers of truth

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And are concerned about the issues that are raised that we need to respond to that and the other answer to your question

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I think would be the fact that dr. Geisler is very very enamored with Thomas Aquinas And dr.

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Geisler's philosophy is a neo neo Thomistic philosophy and as such

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Aquinas had a particular view of the nature of the will the nature of the concept of free will that I think absolutely requires the viewpoint that dr.

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Geisler takes and So in my book the Potter's freedom I even paralleled the words of Aquinas with That are quoted in the

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Catholic Catechism with what dr. Geisler said and they're saying the same thing And so if you start from there, then it's not overly surprising that you end up on the same view of grace

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The grace becomes an enabling power but that grace then needs an addition and That addition is the the free will of man when your interview.

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I kind of took you to under understood you to say that dr. Geisler says that God Choose it's irresistible grace on God's part, but Unconditionally, but it's conditional upon man and it seemed to me that you said it was conditioned upon man's faith

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Well, isn't that faith given by God? Well, no, dr Geisler strongly denies that faith is a gift from God saving faith is within the capacity of every man and His viewpoint is that Election is unconditionally given by God But it is conditionally received by man so one of the main problems with the book is the complete redefinition of the historical terminology that has

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Been used down through the years and that leads to tremendous confusion Irresistible grace is either irresistible or it's resistible.

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Dr. Geisler's position is it is fully resistible and Cannot change the heart of a person who does not desire to be changed

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So don't call it irresistible grace. His idea is it's irresistible on those who are willing

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Well, that's a that's double talk that that's not using the language the in a way that communicates anything and so given that His viewpoint is that it's truly historically a semi

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Pelagian view of man's will The will remains free though limited

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And it still is the final deciding factor in regards to who will and who will not be saved

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It is it cannot be traced to a final decision on God's part It has to be traced to a final decision on man's part.

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And so Dr. Geisler says that Ephesians 2

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Right is not to be if you were me if you mean that in regards to The concept of faith is a gift.

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He says that the and that not of yourselves does not refer to faith He provides a fair amount of discussion and I provide a fair amount of rebuttal in my book

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My viewpoint is that the word this refers the entire preceding phrase and that is that there is nothing in Salvation that can be traced to mankind including faith that all of it comes from God He basically responds by saying that It is only salvation itself that comes from God it originates with God But it fundamentally is the decision of man as to whether it will be successful or not

36:10

Well, it again it comes from the the I believe the the Overriding adoption of a philosophical position in regards to the nature of free will that that becomes the necessity that then determines the exegesis of Scripture and What I would suggest to you, especially since you're in Charlotte, North Carolina I'm in the in the

36:31

Baptist Belt and you know, don't don't despair Tom Nettles and a number of Southern Baptists have endorsed to the

36:39

Potter's freedom and I teach at a Southern Baptist seminary. So There's there's hope out there yet, but What I would suggest to you is to actually pick up both books.

36:51

I think that you would You know, this is One of the reasons I do debates is because when you hear both sides

36:59

And you're allowed to and that's why I'd like to see an actual debate take place when you hear both sides You can see the interaction

37:06

That is when a lot of these questions can be answered and you can determine for yourself Which side can or cannot answer the tough questions?

37:14

And so I would highly recommend that That to you. Okay. Okay one quick question real quickly.

37:20

Got a couple other people online. Okay for someone looking for What would be a good place to look to start looking at?

37:28

education through correspondence courses well Right, I am a mentor a teacher for Columbia Evangelical seminary which does non -traditional education for people that are already in ministry situations or those that can't just pick up and plunk down 40 or 50 thousand dollars, which is a lot of folks and The best way to get information on there.

37:51

There's a web page that is linked from ours or you can just drop them a line at CES calm and start the

38:04

Discussion there Rick Walston's the president of seminary He has a book on non -traditional education how to avoid the pitfalls and things like that And that would be a good place to start at.

38:13

Well, thank you very much. Okay. Thank you. Thank you very much. God bless. Bye. Bye 602 two seven four thirteen sixty one triple eight five five zero thirteen sixty

38:23

We're continuing on the same subject here and let's talk to Bruce from New Jersey.

38:29

How you doing Bruce? Great, dr. White. I'm really excited to get through to you. Well, it's good to have you on the program today

38:36

Let me give you a quick history of how I came to call you today Two weeks ago.

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I was reading a local paper and dr. Geisler was appearing locally to give a seminar called chosen, but free hmm, and I was unaware of his book but I am a thoroughgoing

38:53

Calvinist and the topic tweaked my interest and I went out to listen to him and And I wanted to I guess really

39:02

Encourage you and validate the reason for your book having sat there and listened to the seminar I sat right in front of mr.

39:10

Geisler three feet away from him and as the only Calvinist president in the

39:15

Assembly and I'm sure you can relate. Oh, yeah, and I guess the point

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I want to make to you is how important your book is is that he led a Non -educated audience along to feeling that they were in somehow an agreement with his stark

39:32

Calvinism and If anybody could have come up with a more brilliant way, and I'm not saying it's

39:39

Intentional on his part, but to have a counterfeit Calvinism that is Arminianism is very scary.

39:45

Hmm so he really strongly pushed the idea that the position that he holds is a

39:55

Moderate Balanced form of Calvinism. Yes, sir. I'm sure you're aware of that. Oh, yeah

40:00

In fact the way I came to call you today was and I hope you'll read it I sent you a short letter detailing my experience.

40:07

I had to go to your website to email it and be aware that you had this program I'm glad you did.

40:13

I hope you'll read that but and You'll get a little bit from my letter He did allow me to interact with him in front of the group

40:21

But it was not a debate and I had to be very careful to pick my spot Before he would cut me off, but I pinned him down several times

40:31

And of course, I want to say also before I go on that. Dr. Geisler is a very gracious. Yes.

40:36

He is Yes he is and For me to have left there feeling actually pleasant about him as a person with some of the things he said about Calvinism And the way he misrepresented it says a lot for his demeanor, right?

40:47

Well, that is that is the conundrum but that I think a lot of people are facing is that when you meet

40:54

Norman Geisler as an individual You know, I've had dinner with him. I've had lunch with him. I you know the the

41:02

Advice I would give anyone who has a lunch or dinner with Norman Geisler is choose when you're going to drink your pop carefully

41:09

Because you never know when he's going to say something Uproariously funny and cause you to embarrass yourself greatly by spewing your

41:16

Pepsi through your nose I mean, that's really how how very funny he is and very personable he is and I think it's one of the reasons again why so many people have been strong in their response is because We do like him as an individual and hold him to a higher standard than this

41:32

That's that's why many of us are just very confused when we look at how he dealt with John Piper or something like that and go

41:38

That's not how you that's not how you do this and and that's not Norm Geisler that shouldn't be how

41:43

Norm Geisler handles this and So it's a it's a strange situation.

41:49

We're in and we're trying I really hope and pray that as people read the book They will see that I approached it from a very respectful perspective and and with all all honor for what?

41:59

Dr. Geisler has done. We still can't allow that to cause confusion in regards to something that's important.

42:05

So And we're back we've got Well, not a whole lot of time left in the program today, but still got a lot of callers.

42:13

We need to get to So I'm looking at things here and I think I need to go to line two and talk with Mark in Kansas City How are you today

42:22

Mark? Pretty good. How you doing? I'm doing. All right. We're covering the whole nation today, Kansas See now you've you've nailed down the middle the heartland of the nation.

42:31

Yeah Listened to you quite a bit on the Internet this first time. I've actually Listened to you live.

42:38

So I've always I've went back in your archives, right? I understand. Well, thanks for joining us today

42:43

I had a question. I was listening to Bible Answer Man about I'd say a month ago and Hank got a caller and the caller told

42:54

Hank that he had read R. C. Sproul's book willing to believe and You know

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Hank always Tells the callers, you know, he gives them both perspectives, right?

43:06

You know, he never tells them reformed view is wrong or what have you but He told him he told the person the two sides of the perspective and then he endorsed

43:18

He told the caller to read chosen but free said it was a great book, right? I heard it and I was pretty blown away because I didn't you know, because the

43:27

CRI always says that their books are so You know so well researched and what have you and I was just wondering if you all have

43:39

If you have talked to Hank personally about that or no, I haven't talked to Hank personally about yet I sent the

43:46

Potter's freedom in manuscript form to Hank on January 25th of The year 2000 so Hank has had the book.

43:54

I do not know if Hank has read the book I know that Norman Geisler is is very much

44:02

Hank's theological mentor and I I know that Hank is between a rock and a hard place here in essence in regards to the fact that it would be very difficult for him to Take a strong stance on this particular issue in light of the fact that Norman Geisler is probably the most frequent guest

44:20

Outside of maybe Lee Strobel on the Bible Answer Man broadcast and that he is a very close friend of Hank Hanegraaff's There is there

44:31

Hank has said many times on the air that within the staff of CRI There's a number of different perspectives presented.

44:37

There are Calvinists there. There are strong Armenians there. I Continue to function as a

44:43

Contributing editor to the journal. I have a feature article coming up I believe in the next edition of the

44:49

CRI Journal on Philippians 2 5 through 11 and just wrote a point counterpoint piece with Ralph McKenzie on the

44:56

Augsburg Accords, so I'm still active in doing things like that So I don't know what's gonna come of it once the

45:04

Potter's freedom comes out Somebody is gonna get on the phone and they're going to ask Hank Hey, I've read chosen but free and I've read the

45:11

Potter's freedom and what's going on here? And you know, I don't know what's gonna happen then but Hank always says that the this is an issue that should be be vigorously debated and We are vigorously debating it within the pale of orthodox.

45:29

Well, that's a very interesting pale, isn't it? So, I don't know what's gonna happen

45:37

You know But from my perspective as long as it's being discussed and that people aren't just simply closing their eyes to it that that's a good thing and I'm hoping that many people once they get the book are really going to be caused to think through the issues and struggle with them

45:53

Already, I really really enjoyed your nine Broadcasts on the chosen but free just wanted to tell you thank you for doing that.

46:02

Well, I appreciate that I hope you'll be looking forward to the Potter's freedom. It should be out in about three weeks All right.

46:07

Thanks. Bye. Bye That was Mark from Kansas City. Let's go. Let's cover. Let's cover both ends of the nation today.

46:14

Let's talk to Hugo in Los Angeles So we've been in New Jersey. We've been in Charlotte, Kansas City and now

46:21

Los Angeles. Hello, Hugo. How are you? How you doing James doing pretty good pleasure to speak with you Wanted I know you have short time.

46:28

I wish I wanted to touch. I have a few of your debate tapes. Mm -hmm and it was one thing that you were debating a a

46:37

Baptist on a scripture in the letter of the second Peter to That's not exactly our most popular debate tape

46:48

Well, I think you're referring to brother Barker, you know, okay You touched a little bit on Scripture talking about the word master.

46:59

Mm -hmm, meaning despot. Ah, I wanted to hear I didn't you didn't get to finish on the tape a lot of the people when

47:06

I speak to them about that scripture and I tell them they asked me what about bought them right and What that word means and maybe if you can kind of explain that a little bit

47:14

Yeah, it's funny as weird as rich and I are driving down here. We were listening to dr.

47:19

Geisler's Comments on the buddy Boone interview from Charlotte, North Carolina was mentioned earlier and he had specifically mentioned second

47:28

Peter 2 1 and he had specifically said that that passage says that Jesus bought them with his blood and A couple things there's a book and one of my students is looking for it right now

47:40

It's having trouble getting it. You might get it through interlibrary loan. I'm not sure but it's called definite atonement by Gary long and it is a fairly extensive discussion of Second Peter 2 1 and the terminology that's used within it and fundamentally here are the issues that people need to deal with and and again

47:58

I'm under that wonderful thing called time pressure to write to get through all of it But the passage says but false prophets also arose among the people

48:06

Just as there will also be false teachers among you who will secretly introduce destructive heresies even denying the master who bought them bring swift destruction upon themselves

48:17

So here you have clearly non -christian individuals the rest of the chapter very clearly describes them as being apostates not apostates in the sense of having truly been

48:27

Christians But they claim to be but they are not they are not regenerate never have been regenerate The argument is denying the master who bought them means

48:36

That the word master refers to Jesus bought means the atonement and therefore

48:42

Jesus bought apostate people by his blood Now the first thing that I point out is if you want to inquire concerning the extent of the atonement

48:52

This seems to me a very strange place to go to do It would seem to me that maybe the entire chapters of Hebrews chapters 7 8 9 and 10 would be where you'd want to go

49:03

But that's not where those individuals go. That's where I go when I present it, but that's not what they do

49:09

Secondly, why is the word master? Automatically understood to be Jesus, especially in the in the sense that this is not the term courios

49:17

Courios is normally used of Jesus, but this is despot And despot is used of God the

49:23

Father. For example, I believe in Acts 4 27 and 28 I'm quoting off the top of my head, but it means sovereign

49:31

Lord It means the one who rules over the world or it can be used of a secular ruler as well right thirdly the term bought agar adzo in the

49:41

Greek is used redemptively of the purchase price of Jesus's atonement however, every time that it's used redemptively the price of the redemption is always mentioned for you were bought with a

49:55

Price you have been a garage owed with the precious blood of Christ or whatever else it might be

50:01

When in redemptive context you always have the price of the redemption being mentioned

50:07

You don't have anything like that here. And that's one of the things I objected to with a dr

50:13

Geisler's statement on the radio was that this is saying that Jesus bought them with his blood the blood of Christ is not mentioned here and so Automatically, I would say since those are not a part of the context then you're autumn already

50:28

Reaching and leaping to certain conclusions that are not warranted in the context instead

50:33

Since it is and this is part of God's providence his will that the church constantly

50:38

Struggle against heresy false teaching and false teachers in the church just as Paul warned in Acts chapter 20 verses 24 through 32

50:47

Then many people would see this passages saying that the what they are denying is the sovereign master who placed them in positions of leadership and yet they use those positions of leadership

50:59

To fill their own bellies and to as Paul puts it draw away disciples after themselves

51:05

They don't seem to realize that they have been given their ability to do what they're doing By the very one that they are denying and hence as it says at the end of the verse are bringing swift

51:15

Destruction upon themselves. They are playing with fire All right, and so that was what

51:20

I was trying to communicate. But as I recall it's been a couple years as I recall That devolved very quickly into something about the

51:29

King James only situation and professors from Fuller or something like that So that's a little bit longer response, but still rather short

51:37

Maybe someday we'll just do a full study of 2nd Peter 2 1 just to sort of lay it all out sometime

51:42

But that'd be great. Alrighty. Thanks you go for calling today. Okay. Thank you. God bless. Bye. Bye. Hey Dennis, man

51:48

I'm sorry, dude, but you can hear the sound back there stay on the line there Dennis I'll get to you in a moment as soon as we get off the air

51:54

Thank you very much for listening today. Please remember to pray for us We will be in Mesa tonight and then

52:00

Tuesday through Saturday of next week I'll give you a report next Saturday how we're doing. I might be a little tired but pray for us as we proclaim the gospel