October 14, 2020 Show with Vern Poythress on “The Mystery of the Trinity”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth. We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 14th day of October 2020.

I'm so thrilled to have, for the very first time ever on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, somebody that I've been wanting to interview for quite a long time, and finally this has come to fruition. I am speaking of Dr. Vern Poitras, Distinguished Professor of New Testament, Biblical Interpretation, and Systematic Theology at Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia, author of a number of books, and today we're going to be discussing one of them, The Mystery of the Trinity, The Trinitarian Approach to the Attributes of God.

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. Vern Poitras.

Thank you very much for inviting me.

Oh, it's my pleasure, brother. Before we go into something that is a tradition here, when we have a first-time guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, we normally have that guest give a summary of their salvation testimony, what kind of religious atmosphere they were raised in, if any, and what kind of providential circumstances our Sovereign Lord raised up in their lives that drew them to himself.

And we will have you do that, but first, tell us about Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, for those of our listeners who may be unaware of that fine institution, although I'm sure the vast majority already are, but we have new listeners in our audience very often, and new Christians, I should say, and we also even have those that are not Christian at all, Muslims and atheists and others.

So why don't you tell our listeners about Westminster Theological Seminary?

Okay, we're 29.

Well, praise God. If anybody wants to find out more information about Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, go to wts .edu, wts .edu. And now, as I mentioned before, just moments ago, we would like you to fulfill our tradition today that we have, where our first-time guests give a summary of their salvation testimony.

I made it. I was nine years old at a church camp.

Wow.

It was a real blessing. I grew up.

Praise God. And how did the thought come into your head, or what providential circumstances rose up around you that led you to the conviction, I am going to pursue being a professor or a teacher?

I see.

Great. Well, now we have the opportunity to delve into this new book, The Mystery of the Trinity, The Trinitarian Approach to the Attributes of God. Well, perhaps if you could, it might be a wise place for you to start by giving us, as briefly as you possibly can, with a subject so deep and so vast and mysterious, as the title hints at, tell us, in summary form, who is the Trinity?

Yes, and I have been told by Christian apologists, and one in particular, actually, my friend for many years, Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, who's a Reformed Baptist apologist, and author of the book, The Forgotten Trinity, he has told me, and others have said this, that very often they have been dismayed when having conversations with Christians, sometimes Christians who have been Christians for decades, and when the subject of the Trinity comes up, they may provide, unfortunately, a modalist definition of what that is.

Have you found that in your own experience, that people don't really seem to have a grasp on the separateness of the persons, and yet the fact that they are in one Godhead, they are all one God, and yet three, not only separate, but co-equal and co-eternal persons?

Comet it is. And it's partly because less than some professors,. Oh, that's a good thing that you don't have.

That same kind of problem that you've encountered, but I guess it still exists, nonetheless. And this is a subject matter that has even evoked differences of opinion in the body of Christ on how much someone has to understand and believe in this concept in order to be rightly called a brother and sister in Christ.

Is this what you would consider a vital core teaching of the church that is really inseparable from biblical orthodoxy? If we find out that somebody that we have identified as a Christian, who identifies themselves as a Christian, has some things really mixed up about this doctrine, should we still embrace them as a brother or sister?

How do you handle that situation?

Right. It's an excellent question. In there, it doesn't mean you have to, I would like to say, we're saved by faith in Christ, not by knowledge of doctrine.

Yes.

Because we embrace and love. I think you're right. We'll give you some literature to help you understand better. We'll pray for you concerning God. Say, well, you may, you said it wrong. So there's kinds of people, this as well as you should say, who are actively seeking perverse things.

Leaders of the church who are teaching.

Great. And by the way, I'm so thankful to have you confirm that confused people can still go to heaven because I am very often one of the most confused people I know. So that's very reassuring.

As I said, it's not all orthodoxy as such.

Amen. And of course, judging from what you have already just said, one cannot run with that in order to welcome everyone into the church who happens to be, especially if they are knowledgeable people who are actively trying to tear down the church with their false teachings or false practices.

And those can be all kinds of things, whether they be cultic or leftist or what have you. They are unfortunately multiplying very rapidly in the church today. And it is certainly obviously not only a glorious time to see the gospel continue to spread and to see souls saved all over the globe, but it's also obviously heart-wrenching to see people that you once knew and loved or thought you did, or at least people that you once valued in the literary world or as a preacher or teacher who later comes out of the closet, as it were, with a really serious heresy.

So we have to keep that balance of not being too harsh towards those who are truly among the elect for whom Christ died. And we have to also be very leery and on the watch for wolves in sheep's clothing entering into the flock or rising up from the flock.

I'm going to give our email address for those of our listeners who want to join us on the air with a question of their own. Chrisarnson at gmail .com. Chrisarnson at gmail .com. And as always, please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Let's say you believe in something that you know your pastor disagrees with or your denomination disagrees with and you don't want to identify yourself.

Perhaps you're even a pastor and you've come to embrace a teaching that you know your fellow elders are in disagreement over or your denomination or what have you. Whatever the case is, if it's a personal and private matter, we understand you wanting to remain anonymous.

But if it's just a general theological question on the Trinity, or you may have another question about Reformed theology, which is the theology embraced by my guest and myself. If it's just a general question, please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence.

Let's see here. We have B .B. in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who wants to know, how is this book, The Mystery of the Trinity, different from your other book, Knowing and the Trinity, How Perspectives in Human Knowledge Imitate the Trinity?

I know that there's another book.

Great. Well, guess what, B .B.? You have won a free copy of the book we are addressing today, The Mystery of the Trinity, A Trinitarian Approach to the Attributes of God. So make sure we get your full mailing address in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

In fact, we still want you to give us that address, but it might be quicker for you to stop by Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, where these books will be waiting for you. As soon as we get them, we didn't get them yet, but you can call them at CVBBS and see if they have arrived yet, and you can pick up your copy as long as you identify yourself as a winner in the Iron Trump and Zion Radio audience.

Thank you for your excellent question. I have another question that I will read to you, and then I will have you answer it when we return from our first break. We have a listener. I will give her full name because she happens to be somebody I've interviewed many times myself on this program.

She's a former Mormon who, by the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ, converted to historic, biblical, orthodox Christianity, and her name is Dr. Lataine C. Scott, an author in her own right, an author of the Mormon Mirage and many other wonderful books.

And Lataine C. Scott's question is, I've been reading Dr. Poythress's book, In the Beginning Was the Word, Language, a God-Centered Approach, and loving it. He compares God to a novelist who commissions the characters in his novel to act creatively while within the parameters of the personalities the writer has assigned to each character.

But the author ultimately controls the actions of the characters in the same way that God the Father commissions the Son to make choices, act creatively, but in ways that harmonize with God the Father's plan.

Could Dr. Poythress please give an example of how Jesus made choices or acted creatively? And we'll have you answer that when we come back from our first break. If anybody else wants to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address again is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Dr. Verne Poythress.

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I'm Dr. Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love. Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell.

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The Trinity and the Mystery of Divine Attributes

Welcome back. This is Chris Armisen, the host of Iron Trumpet Zion Radio. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full program is Dr. Vern Poythress. We are discussing his book, The Mystery of the Trinity.

Before I return to a question that was asked of Dr. Poythress by Dr. Latane C. Scott of Albuquerque, New Mexico, I just wanted to read a couple of endorsements for this book by some very impressive folks that I have interviewed on this program.

One is Dr. D .A. Carson, Emeritus Professor of New Testament at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. Dr. Carson says, This book is a valiant and thought-provoking attempt to approach the attributes of God through the doctrine of the Trinity.

While broadly endorsing the classical doctrine of God, Poythress is suspicious of our reliance on well-defined technical terms and that are required to do our work for us. He wants us to abandon our implicit reliance on Aristotelian metaphysics in favor of the sharpening power of the mystery of the Trinity.

In the hands of Poythress, this becomes an appeal to become more robustly biblical, not less. This book is truly transforming a capstone to all that Poythress has taught us over the last two or three decades.

Read it slowly and carefully. We also have another individual, a very prominent individual, who has been a guest on this program, Dr. Philip Graham Rykin, President at Wheaton College. Dr. Poythress applies his deep knowledge of scripture, his well-informed knowledge of historical theology, and his brilliant mind to some of the most difficult controversies in the theology of the divine attributes.

And there are many more commendations for this book as well. As I was saying before, before the break, Dr. Latane C. Scott of Albuquerque, New Mexico, said, I've been reading Dr. Poythress's book. In the beginning was the word language, a God-centered approach, and loving it.

He compares God to a novelist who commissions the characters in his novel to act creatively while within the parameters of the personalities the writer has assigned to each character. But the author ultimately controls the actions of the characters in the same way that God the Father commissions the Son to make choices, act creatively, but in ways that harmonize with God the Father's plan.

Could Dr. Poythress please give an example of how Jesus made choices or acted creatively?

On to this action, and I think what I have in mind a marvelous does it by speaking the eternal speaking that's mentioned in Jehovah's Revival and there was life. Creativity, he didn't have to make anything at all.

To make a world, there's lots of creativity in exactly what kind of world he's going to make. And he exercises that creativity and expresses, hey, you know, what a marvelous God is who's made chipmunk the Son, particularly with that creativity of God, because he decided.

Well, thank you, Dr. Latane C. Scott. Make sure that we have your mailing address in Albuquerque, New Mexico, so that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS, can ship that copy of The Mystery of the Trinity out to you, since you have won a copy by virtue of your submitting a question today.

And we want to thank PNR Publishing as well for providing with us a number of copies that we can give away today to our listeners who submit questions, a limited number, of course. So unfortunately, not everybody who's listening, who writes in, I should say, will be able to get one, but at least a number of you can.

And by the way, I would appreciate our listeners praying for Dr. Latane C. Scott, who happens to be not only a longtime friend, but a frequently interviewed guest on this program. She just lost, after I believe it was over 40 years of marriage, her husband, Dan, went home to be with the Lord after a very long, debilitating illness.

And of course, there's much reason for rejoicing, knowing that he was indeed a Christian and is certainly with the Savior, whom he loved to proclaim all these years. And no longer feeling the horrible effects of illness, but at the same time, obviously, after such a long marriage, especially Dr. Scott, is no doubt still in the grieving process.

So please pray for her and her family. And in fact, they do have adult children as well. So pray for them as well, that the Lord gives them the peace that surpasses all understanding. Well, we have David in Sumner, Washington.

Did the Holy Spirit indwell the Old Testament saints or did he only come upon them? Are you there, Dr. Poythress?

I am. Pentecost, the Holy Spirit, the church in the new with his indwelling, a fundamental concept.

Well, thank you, David. And please make sure we have your full mailing address in Sumner, Washington, so that we can have cvbbs .com, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, ship your free copy of The Mystery of the Trinity out to you.

I don't want to go too far afield of our subject at hand, but I did have a follow-up question to David's. In fact, I'm going to take it when we return from our midway break because we have to get to our middle break right now.

If anybody wants to send in a question, send it to chrisarnson at gmail .com. And also, please, while we have this longer than normal break because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show because they have to localize this program to Lake City, Florida by FCC requirements with their own public service announcements and other local announcements.

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James White of Alpha Omega Ministries and the Dividing Line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church, now located at their new beautiful facilities in Coram, Long Island, New York.

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I do not hesitate to highly recommend Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island to anyone who wants to be accurately taught, discipled and edified by the Holy Scriptures and to be surrounded by truly loving and caring brothers and sisters in Christ.

I also want to congratulate Hope Reform Baptist.

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For their recent appointment of Pastor Rich Jensen's co-elder, Pastor Christopher McDowell. For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net. That's hopereformedli .net or call 631 -696 -5711.

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The good news, you thought, was that you purchased business interruption insurance as a part of your business liability policy with a major insurance company who told you they are a good neighbor or that you would be in good hands.

You filed a claim only to be told that it was denied due to the pandemic exclusion clause. The pandemic exclusion? Since 2006, most insurance companies added this clause to enable them to deny your income loss claims in the event of a worldwide pandemic.

Do not give up. No matter what state you live in, call Buttafuoco Associates now at 1 -800 -669 -4878. Buttafuoco Associates is a part of a large multi-district litigation, and they are working with lead counsel to bring what they believe will be a successful lawsuit for these claims.

It is the best way for you to proceed. There's absolutely no risk to you. You do not have to pay them out of pocket, and there is no fee unless you recover on your claim. You need to call 1 -800 -669 -4878 right now.

Trust the law firm where the attorneys at one of the largest.

Business firms.

On Long Island, New York are sending their own clients for representation during this lawsuit. Buttafuoco Associates here to help business owners rebuild their lives in the wake of the pandemic. Call 1 -800 -669 -4878.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,.