Evangelical Compromise on Same-Sex Attraction with Jared Moore

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We have an important topic today and a special guest to help us with this topic. This is a topic

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I've covered before in various ways, but I don't think I have as much knowledge as our guest. Our guest is

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Dr. Jared Moore, who has written a dissertation, he actually has a book coming out on the topic of same -sex attraction, the lust of the flesh, and he is a graduate of the

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Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky. He has a PhD in systematic theology, and he is a co -author of the book,

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The Pop Culture Parent Helping Kids Engage Their World for Christ, and he's going to help us today on this topic of same -sex attraction, revoiced theology, and homosexuality.

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Welcome, Dr. Jared Moore. Thanks for having me, man, I'm looking forward to getting in this.

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I appreciate you being willing to, first of all, I think I should just ask this question. You're willing to be brave.

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What's up with that? Because most seminary graduates, most classmates I had at Southeastern even, wouldn't want to touch this subject with a 10 -foot pole.

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So what gives you the bravery to touch this? Well, for me, it's really a pastoral issue.

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I mean, think of Martin Luther with John Tinsel, you know, folks, him teaching people that they can buy their loved ones out of purgatory, and that sparked the

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Reformation. It was ultimately Luther's pastoral heart where he was concerned with his congregation, concerned with truth, and for me,

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I think of people in my church who are battling same -sex attraction who have those desires, and them

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Googling some of the names that I'm about to mention, and being taught essentially heresy, that heresy is going to save them.

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The ultimate issue is that this is a false gospel. People want to remove the sin of same -sex attraction by saying it's not sin, and the only way to remove it is by repenting and believing in Christ.

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Only Christ can take our sin away, but they're trying to use empty rhetoric to take sin away, and it is critical theory.

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I mean, it is this issue of you're oppressed. They even use language of sexual minority.

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You're a sexual minority, therefore you're not sinning in this area, and it's oppressed versus oppressor, and the oppressed can't sin.

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It's just a pastoral burden for me, and that's kind of what's spurring me, and two, the sexual revolution doesn't have any brakes.

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They're not slowing down. They're going to push this into further depravity, and if same -sex attraction is not sin, then pedophilic attraction is not sin.

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I just saw, it was a journal article from Cambridge just this morning,

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I believe, or last night, one, was arguing for bestiality due to being one with, it was something about how we're one with the animal kingdom and all this, but I mean, how can a pastor, if he says that perverse attraction is not sin, how can he say that sexual attraction to animals is not sin?

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I mean, how can he say that it is sin? How can he rebuke somebody who comes to him and says, I experience bestial attraction?

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What can he say if he has said that same -sex attraction is not sin? And so I'm concerned on those two fronts, that for my own congregation, for young people in my church, and also for young people in other churches, and then two, you can't unring this veil.

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If you can't rebuke same -sex attraction, you can't rebuke any attraction under the sun. Yeah, I mean,

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I pointed out before, and I'm sure you have and others, that they would never apply this logic to the things that are very unfavorable today, even to worldly people like racism or sexism or something.

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They would never say, well, it's fine to fantasize or to just desire to beat your wife, you just don't do it.

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You know? Right. And we should form a society for Christians who desire to beat their wives. We would never do that.

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And of course, the accusation is you're comparing same -sex attraction to beating her. It's like, no, they're just both their sins in scripture.

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And so, I mean, I think you're pointing out just some common sense things here, but it's lost on some of the supposedly smartest among us.

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And that's where I think I've had trouble even myself trying to square how does this particular individual,

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I'm sure you'll name some of them soon, have such good convictions in these other areas, theologically perhaps.

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And then on this issue, it may be a few others, but a small sliver of issues that are just in vogue today in the world, they just lose it.

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They don't have any sense of proportion or even an attempt to be somewhat consistent.

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And, you know, it is disturbing. It is something

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I've seen work its way into the lives of people who legitimately do struggle with these temptations.

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And then they're given somewhat of a pass that they can have these temptations. And it gets them to the next rung, which is to be more and more soft on the issue of homosexuality.

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To the point, some of them have even gone into homosexuality because of this. And I see this as an on -ramp, and I'm sure you do too.

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Why don't we start here? Why don't you tell us a little bit, why don't we lay a groundwork? So we're just, everyone's clear on what are the

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Revoice people, and I know that's a broad spectrum to some extent, but what is being argued on the other side of this issue?

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The thing that we're both concerned about here. And then what is your basic response to this from Augustine, from the scripture, and why you disagree with Revoice theology, we'll say.

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Sure. So Revoice essentially argues that homosexual orientation, which is same -sex attraction, is not sinful.

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They argue that it's caused by the fall, that it comes from the fall, that it's fallen, but it is not sin.

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But they do say that same -sex sexual attraction, so they separate same -sex attraction from same -sex sexual attraction.

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They say the same -sex sexual attraction is sin, but same -sex attraction can be inherently good, and they actually argue that.

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They're telling people to act on their same -sex attraction, or to act on their homosexual orientation, but not to act on their same -sex sexual attraction.

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And they argue that they affirm the traditional

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Christian sexual ethic. And of course, what I just described is obviously not part of the traditional biblical

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Christian sexual ethic, where you parse out, where essentially you argue that the flesh can produce good, is what they're arguing.

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And the Bible says the opposite of that. And as far as my response to that,

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Jesus said to love God with all your heart, soul, and mind, love your neighbor as yourself. The 10th commandment says you shall not desire anything that belongs to your neighbor.

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In Romans 1, Paul rebukes not only actions, but desires, passions. James 1, it is not just the behavior that God cannot do, but it's the actual inner temptation that God cannot do, because it is sin, because it is evil.

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You know, if the devil tempts you, the devil is sinning. But if you tempt yourself, revoice would have you to believe you're not sinning.

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But James says that's aimed at death. It cannot be aimed at holiness, but revoice wants you to believe they can aim their same -sex attraction to holiness.

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And so they're saying that a desire of the flesh can become a desire of the spirit.

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That is not how Paul describes sin in Romans 7 or Galatians 5. There are desires of the flesh and desires of the spirit.

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There are not desires of the flesh that become desires of the spirit or desires of the spirit that become desires of the flesh.

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There are two distinct realities. The Holy Spirit, when you get saved, God, the Holy Spirit, comes in your heart.

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He regenerates you, and now he gives you a new spirit. And now you have the flesh -producing desires and the spirit -producing desires.

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Now, the spirit, the Holy Spirit, has freed your will to where you no longer have to bow to the flesh.

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You can reject the old man and put on the new one. You can walk in the spirit and not walk in the flesh.

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But to say that the desires of the spirit and the flesh are one and the same is just flat -out unbiblical, but that's what revoice has to teach.

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They either have to indot God on his design in saying that they'll use language like same -sex beauty.

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You know, same -sex beauty is what draws homosexuals. They're trying to indot God. They're saying that the design of God is what is really drawing them to the same sex.

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And that just isn't true. It's like me saying that same -race beauty makes me a white supremacist. I'm a white supremacist because it is same -race beauty that draws me to the same race.

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I mean, it's just all it is is empty rhetoric. It's just empty rhetoric. That's what all that literally, this is not exegesis.

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This is not Bible. It's not even historic Christianity. It is rhetoric.

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Yeah, you won't find this if you go back to the Reformers or the Puritans or really any example you can find from church history, orthodox church history.

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I was wondering, I want to ask this question because I asked this to MD Perkins. I asked this to anyone who tries to tackle this issue.

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The wiggle room, it seems like the revoice advocates find is that they will compare a homosexual desire to heterosexual and they'll say, well, before you were married, weren't you looking around for a wife and weren't you looking for someone who you were attracted to?

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Well, was that wrong to be attracted to someone at that time who wasn't your wife, became your wife later? Isn't that something that God creates in us?

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And I guess we would say that's part of the natural order to identify beauty. We wouldn't say that that's necessarily lust, and they'll try to equate that and say, well, we have the same thing.

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We were just attracted to people of the same gender, and we're not lusting either.

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We're not going that extra step. What do you say to people who try to kind of hide their entire system, which is soft peddling homosexuality in that little,

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I don't know, technicality there? Homosexuality is not heterosexuality.

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Number one, God designed heterosexuality. Heterosexuality in its purest form is sinless.

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Adam and Eve in Genesis 2, sinless attraction.

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Homosexuality in its purest form is still sin. On its best day, it's still sin because it came from the devil.

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I mean, the devil put it into the heart of man to turn creation upside down. And this is what

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Paul describes in Romans 1. He says upside -down worship leads to upside -down sexuality. And to say that what

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Paul says is unnatural, meaning not God's design, to say and conflate that with heterosexuality is blatantly unbiblical.

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And this is one of the issues I have with the Nashville Statement, the SBC Nashville Statement.

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Yeah. It conflates. It puts homosexuality and heterosexuality side by side. And it even uses the language.

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And I've rewrote the Nashville Statement. It's called the Crossville Statement. And you can find it at credoalliance .com.

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And we actually have it where I put both documents side by side and show the errors of the

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Nashville Statement. Nashville Statement was co -written by John Piper. John Piper teaches that same -sex attraction is not sin.

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And so the language in the Nashville Statement doesn't say that homosexuality is sin. It says homosexual immorality is sin.

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So it condemns transgenderism outright. It doesn't say transgender immorality is sin.

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It says transgenderism. But homosexuality, it says homosexual immorality is sin, but not homosexuality.

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And even the Nashville Statement, there are numerous people, Robert Gagnon, Robert Gagnon, who says same -sex attraction is not sin, signed the

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Nashville Statement. John Piper co -wrote it, who says same -sex attraction is not sin.

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I mean, it's so frustrating because this is it. I mean, this is everywhere.

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It's infiltrated literally all of evangelicalism. There's very few groups in evangelicalism that is not fighting this issue.

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I want to stop there if we can real quick. And I know you're on a roll. What you said, though, is like it might shock some people.

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And sometimes we need the milk before the meat. And so what I'm hoping is you can explain some things.

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We've already talked about revoiced theology. Now we're talking about the Nashville Statement and how that has kind of,

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I guess, more or less soft -pedaled or it's equated homosexuality and heterosexuality in a certain way.

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It's created a comparison that has led to people who believe in revoiced theology to justify same -sex attraction.

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But wouldn't there be a big difference, though, people would say between, I mean, I'm trying to even think, a lot of people signed the

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Nashville Statement, right? I think Al Mohler signed the Nashville Statement. I don't even remember. I mean, you would know more than me. They're not in revoiced, right?

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You're not saying they're the same as revoiced. So explain that to me, if you would, just the compromise that you see in the

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Nashville Statement versus the compromise in revoiced. Is revoiced just the logical next step for people who signed the

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Nashville Statement or is it something separate or what's the connection? The Nashville Statement rebukes making homosexuality your identity, part of your identity.

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So run around calling yourself a gay Christian. That's essentially the good that came out of the

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Nashville Statement. So everybody that signed it is against making homosexuality part of your identity in Christ, right?

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And so that rebukes revoiced. Revoiced hated the Nashville Statement, but it didn't go far enough.

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It still has these errors in it. It still conflates heterosexuality with homosexuality.

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It does not condemn same -sex attraction. It condemns homosexual behavior. Okay. And, you know, the

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Bible condemns both. Yeah, and that gets into this idea, co -cubescence.

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I'm probably still saying it wrong. It's a new word for me. Yeah, you go for it. You say it for everyone.

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Con -cubescence. Con -cubescence. There we go. When I first read it, I did the same thing, man. Yeah.

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Well, I mean, I just, I'm not used to seeing that word, but that was the term, I guess, in translations of Augustine's work that's used to describe the lust of the flesh.

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Why don't you tell us a little bit about that? One of the things I found interesting in your dissertation was this, how

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Augustine went back and forth on this issue of co -cubescence. And the

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Roman Catholic Church essentially rejected Augustine. And so their theology on this particular topic is weak, just like revoiced theology is weak.

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And you make the argument that the reformed or the Protestant reform view is stronger, and that we're kind of casting that asunder now.

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And that's one of the big problems. So can you take us a little bit through that history in the church of how we got to this point?

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Sure, sure. So early on, Augustine basically said that co -cubescence or sinful desire is not sin, early in his ministry.

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But by the time you get like 10, 20 years into his ministry, he goes back on that and rebukes that and argues clearly that anything contrary to God in us is sin.

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That the will, whether or not you volitionally choose something, is irrelevant concerning the morality of the desire.

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The telos or the goal of the desire determines whether or not it is obedient to God.

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So is it aimed at God? Is it aimed at holiness? And this is what James 1 says, right?

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James 1 argues that inner temptation is always aimed at death. It can't grow up into anything else.

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It can't become anything else. It is always aimed at death, right?

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And so Augustine argued that. And essentially, it was the Pelagians, his arguments against the

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Pelagians, where I think that helped to solidify his understanding of sin, because they were arguing that co -cubescence is good, that you're created with these desires that are not sinful, right?

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You become a sinner later on. You're not born sinful. And Augustine rebukes

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Julian, for example, in one of his final works. And it actually was unpublished, and they published it after he died.

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It was unfinished. And so, but it's hundreds of pages long. It's huge.

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But then you get to the Reformation. By the time you get to the Reformation, both the

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Roman Catholics and the Protestants in the 1500s argued that co -cubescence is actual sin, or it's a transgression against God, right?

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So both the Roman Catholics and the Protestants were arguing that, but where they departed ways was at the

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Council of Trent. The argument was over what is sin in the baptized? What is sin in those who have been baptized?

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Rome said that co -cubescence no longer had guilt.

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It no longer produced any guilt in the baptized. And they said, anybody who says otherwise, let, you know, anathema, let him go to hell.

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And they departed from both Augustine and Aquinas on that issue, because both of them argued that in the baptized, there was still the form of sin, or there was still the relic of sin in the baptized.

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And they were, you know, the people who opposed it, the Augustinians didn't win at Trent, but the people who opposed it, they argued that if there's still any form of sin in the baptized, then

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God must hate it. So God must hate these individuals still. And so they, the first forum at the

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Council of Trent, and you can go read this in my dissertation, they quote both Augustine and Aquinas in the canon,

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I think it's canon five on original sin, and they quote them affirmingly. But then the final product that actually made it into the canons of Trent, they leave out the quote of Augustine and Aquinas.

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Like they reject the teaching of Augustine and Aquinas on this issue. And the reformers said, no, you know, sinful desire in a

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Christian is still sin, right? It is still the same thing. It's just that it's imputed to Christ.

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Sin doesn't change in the baptized. This is essentially what the Protestants argued. So sin is the same thing.

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It's just imputed to Christ. And so both, so if you believe that same -sex attraction is not sin, both the

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Roman Catholic Church all the way up to the 1500s and the Protestants all the way up to the early 2000s, probably would say you're a heretic.

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I mean, there's no way around it. The Council of Trent would say that you're going to hell. The Protestants would say the same thing.

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So Roman Catholic theology today, and I know that's not our main topic, but my understanding is they're also kind of soft on this, right?

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The same -sex attraction. Yes, they say that you're only culpable for what you choose.

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Right. And so most of Revoice's language comes from modern Roman Catholicism.

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Because I was about to say, Revoice advocates seem to always use the phrase unchosen desires.

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Right. Which as if that's what makes something sin, that's Pelagian.

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I mean, that's straight Pelagian. I mean, as if your choice determines what sin is?

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Like, does it matter if it's unchosen? Can an unchosen desire send you to hell?

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You know, you look in the Old Testament, Israel had sacrifices for unknown sins.

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Right. Sins they were not aware of. Like, what is man's choice?

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That's Pelagian, an overemphasis on the volitional will, the capacity. When you read

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Augustine, he says to starve all sin in you, starve it.

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I mean, that's how you fought it. Right. You know, you starve it to death. And that was the common understanding throughout all church history and spiritual disciplines.

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The mortifying your sin was just a regular part of the Christian life. And until about five seconds ago on certain sins.

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And so that's what you're dealing with. And we're all dealing with it now. So how far is this cancer that you've described, that really is the overturning of all of church history and biblical theology?

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How far is this gone? Because we don't hear people talking about it as much as perhaps you do.

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Or, you know, I've certainly talked about it as well, but I'm not maybe talking about it at the level you're talking about it.

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But there's so few, I could count them on one hand, the people that are pointing this kind of thing out. That's a little surprising.

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So where are the guardians of orthodoxy?

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And if they're not around, then how far has this compromise taken us? Well, I'll just name heroes in this episode.

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Okay. So let's start with Kevin D. Young. Kevin D.

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Young, you know, I appreciate a lot of D. Young's work. But on this subject, he has not been clear.

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And he's actually part of the problem. And it's funny because he was on the council.

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So I want to say it was 2020 when Revoice, you know, it's come to a head in the

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PCA. So Greg Johnson's church is a PCA church. He's a teaching elder.

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He was a teaching elder. They just left about a month ago. They left the PCA. But his church would host the

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Revoice conference every year. So there was a big, you know, uproar in the PCA over this issue.

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And if you go look at it, most it's the teaching elders versus the ruling elders. You know, yeah, yeah, it's the so what which tells me that the

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PCA's seminaries or colleges have been producing or soft peddling this stuff.

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And that's why it's in the teaching elders, primarily. And not so much the ruling elders.

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The ruling elders are more conservative than the teaching elders in the PCA generally. But looking at the young and so the young so they in response to Revoice, they formed this group to kind of write the doctrine to write this doctrinal statement responding to Revoice.

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And the young was on that committee. So he actually had to had to wrestle with the history and study.

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And so I don't know if he still affirms this, but he has not renounced it. And this is something that frustrates me with evangelical elites.

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They can teach heresy. They can teach rank things that are unbiblical. And then they just ignore it.

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They memory hole it. They never publicly respond, you know, and it's political.

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There's no way biblically that you can say or never respond or never correct.

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If you taught heresy in the past, if you taught that heinous sin was okay. You taught something that same sex attraction is not sin.

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So D. Young back in 2015, and this is him answering the question, is homosexual orientation sinful?

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Is homosexual orientation sinful? And this is a crossway. So it indents crossway.

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And here in a minute, I'm going to talk about his book that is from crossway.

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That again, indents crossway in this, this issue, which should crossway right now, the publishing company crossway, publishing company crossway that has done so much good work over the years.

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I mean, you could argue that they're kind of the fountainhead of evangelicalism, or at least of the reform movement of the past 20 years.

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Like they are a big part of that. But in 2015, this is what he says.

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The Bible is somewhat ambiguous about orientation as such only because orientation, that language is relatively new language.

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And so you're not going to find a specific verse that talks about orientation.

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What the Bible does say clearly is that to perform same -sex acts, to engage in homosexual practice or behavior is sin.

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Leviticus says that a man should not lie with a man as with a woman. In Romans, it talks about exchanging natural relationships, men with women for unnatural ones with persons of the same gender.

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In 1 Corinthians 6 and in 1 Timothy 1, in this vice list of sins, one of the sins mentioned are men who practice homosexuality.

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So the emphasis clearly is on the activity, the consciously chosen activity of homosexual intimacy.

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What does that say about orientation? Well, it would certainly suggest that the desire to have a sexual desire for somebody of the same gender is sin if it arises at a level of lust, just like lust for somebody of the opposite sex would be sin.

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Jesus says that in Matthew 5. And I think we go a little farther to say that the desire itself, the kind of attraction is disordered, meaning it's not the way that God designed things from the beginning.

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Now, having said that, there are many desires we may have in the Christian life that are disordered, and all of us need to come daily to God in repentance for all sorts of desires.

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So is homosexual orientation sinful? I wouldn't want somebody watching this who has a struggle with same -sex attraction to think that they're beyond the pale of God's mercy or forgiveness.

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And at the same time, to know that Scripture says clearly to act upon those and to engage in that behavior is sinful.

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He says the Bible is somewhat ambiguous about orientation as such. Let me just correct.

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No, it's not. It's not ambiguous. Jesus said to love God with all your heart, soul, and mind. If your orientation comes from any of those, it has to love

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God. It can't be for same -sex attraction. You can't be oriented towards something contrary to God and it not be sin.

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So he says it's ambiguous about orientation as such, only because that language is a relatively new language.

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So you're not going to find a specific verse that talks about orientation. What the Bible does say clearly is that to perform same -sex acts, to engage in homosexual practice or behavior, is sin.

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What the Bible does say clearly... Okay, so Leviticus says that a man should not lie with a man as with a woman.

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In Romans, Paul talks about exchanging natural relationships, men with women, for unnatural ones with persons of the same gender.

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In 1 Corinthians 6 and 1 Timothy 1, a vice list of sins, one of the sins mentioned is men who practice homosexuality.

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So the emphasis clearly is on the consciously chosen activity of homosexual intimacy.

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This is de Young. What does the Bible say about orientation? Well, it would certainly suggest that sexual desire for somebody of the same gender is sin if it arises to the level of lust.

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Just like lust for somebody of the opposite sex would be sin. As Jesus says in Matthew 5.

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And here he is conflating heterosexuality with homosexuality. He goes on to say, is homosexual orientation sinful?

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I wouldn't want somebody watching this, it's a video, who has a struggle with same -sex attraction, to think that they are beyond the pale of God's mercy or forgiveness.

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At the same time, I want them to know the scripture clearly says to act upon those attractions and to engage in that behavior is sinful, end quote.

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So here he is back in 2015, arguing that same -sex attraction is not sin.

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He distinguishes between lust and lust of the flesh, which is something that Augustine didn't do.

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See, if you have a desire that's contrary to God, it is the beginning of the lust of the flesh.

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It's not something else. It doesn't become lust of the flesh when you volitionally choose it. It is lust from the root to the fruit, from the seed to the deed.

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You can't distinguish morally between the two. And in James 1, he uses this genealogy.

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What is the genealogy of sin? Well, you lure and entice yourself from within, and then you conceive sin, and then it leads to death.

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Right? So he's not saying a good desire or something God produces in you becomes sin.

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He's saying, no, no, no, you, it's your fault. Your flesh is what's producing this in you.

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If you want to understand James 1, you need to go read James 4, where he rebukes them for their desire.

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He says you're murdering one another because of your desires. But here you have the young.

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Essentially, this is the modern Roman Catholic position on same -sex attraction that he argues.

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And it gets worse because he has one of the definitive books from evangelicalism on this subject.

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It's called, What Does the Bible Teach About Homosexuality? Right. And it's published by Crossway.

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And he says there might be some neutral ground of approval or approbation that falls short of sinful desire.

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A brother might be able to discern that his sister is beautiful or a grown daughter might be able to recognize that her dad is handsome without committing any of the wrong kind of epithemia or sinful desire.

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In the same way, the person with same -sex attraction might be able to apprehend someone the same sex as beautiful or handsome without moral culpability.

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Now, think about that. He's comparing, you know, I have a daughter and she is beautiful.

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He's comparing me believing my daughter is beautiful to someone who is sexually attracted or noticing that someone is handsome.

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Okay, so let me put it this way. The way that Eve looked at Adam before they were sent,

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D. Young is saying that a man looking at Adam, the way that Eve first looked at Adam, is not sinful.

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Right. He's putting it in the category of homosexuality because a heterosexual man can,

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I mean, actually, I see guys even do this all the time who are into working out. They can admire the physique of another guy and it's not, and they're heterosexual, right?

33:35

They're not. So he's taking that, I guess, I know he doesn't use that example, but something as innocuous as that and then making that, putting that in the category of homosexuality to justify homosexuality.

33:51

Is that what you're saying? Yes, absolutely. He's conflating the two because it is not

33:57

God's design. So God's design, me noticing that the opposite sex is beautiful.

34:05

Someone is objectively beautiful. Like there are tons of elderly ladies in my church that are beautiful ladies.

34:11

And by that, I don't mean anything sexual whatsoever. You know, I mean, they're objectively beautiful.

34:18

He is saying that there is an objectivity to a homosexual noticing that another man is beautiful.

34:30

The problem is, is what I just said is according to God's design. God has literally designed to where we are supposed to notice the opposite sex concerning beauty.

34:42

We are not supposed to see the same sex the same way that we do the opposite sex. And that is not how

34:49

Adam and Eve were designed. It's all produced by the fall. So if there was no fall, there would be none of this argument about same -sex beauty, right?

35:02

It is not same -sex beauty that draws homosexuals. I hate even using the term homosexual because that gives too much ground.

35:11

That is a modern term. It assumes ontology that someone is ontologically a homosexual.

35:20

Like this is who they are from birth. This is who, when it's just a pattern of sinful desire.

35:27

I don't think, I mean, Rosaria Butterfield says this. I don't think there's anything, there's any such thing as a homosexual.

35:33

There are people with pathological sinful desires, habitual sinful desires. And we've got to redeem the language all the way back to the term homosexual.

35:48

Yeah, she actually wrote me a note on that. And I just remember, I think my response was like, I don't really know what to say or what to use.

35:54

I mean, I guess you could say sodomite, but I mean, I don't know. What term do you use? What I try to say is people who are having same -sex desires.

36:04

Okay. Because then it put, so we've also used this language. Like I experience, like it's happening to them.

36:12

I experienced same -sex attraction or which they're trying to take their responsibility away from having the desire.

36:21

They're the ones having the desire. Right. And so having, I say having same -sex attraction desires or having desires of same -sex attraction.

36:32

Because I know in certain versions, like arson, a coy face, and that's the other word for feminine men.

36:39

I'm trying to remember the word for that. The Greek terms can be translated as homosexuality.

36:46

I mean, that's how some modern translators have approached it at least. If you were on those committees that you would suggest making using the phrase, people who experienced same -sex attraction though, or desires that are same -sex.

37:01

Possibly, but I love it if they put homosexuality because it rebukes it in total, right?

37:10

I mean, because the argument that DeYoung is making is that only the behavior is sinful, not the desire for the behavior.

37:18

Yeah. Okay. So this is, I know we just got in the weeds a little bit on the term homosexuality, but like what you just said about DeYoung might be earth -shaking for some people in the reformed world, especially who think

37:30

DeYoung is, he's not woke, right? He's not like these other guys who are out in left field.

37:35

He's the opposite of Tim Keller. He's a force for good in the PCA. And you're telling us that, well, you know, not so fast.

37:44

There's some compromise here. That's, I mean, have you had reactions from people when you mentioned

37:51

Kevin DeYoung's name or maybe some of the other names you're about to mention where they're just, you know, they're in disbelief. They have a hard time accepting that.

37:58

Oh yeah, yeah. And I mean, I get it. There are heroes, you know, heroes in the faith that folks have benefited from for years.

38:07

They've listened to maybe hundreds of sermons and they've never heard this stuff and they haven't read his book or if they have read his book, they did not at the time have enough of biblical material on the subject to be able to rebuke it or, you know, their radar might not have been up because of who they were reading.

38:30

And so people are shocked. People are surprised. But DeYoung has never went back on any of this, which is very frustrating.

38:39

He's a precursor to revoice. I mean, this book is a precursor to revoice.

38:45

In my opinion, you don't get revoice without all these evangelical leaders compromising on this subject.

38:54

The reason why you have tons, I mean, the teaching elders in the

39:01

PCA, for example, you have so many who are not biblical on this subject is because of leaders like DeYoung.

39:09

And it's frustrating because these guys should know better. These guys should know better from the very simple command of Jesus.

39:18

Love God with all your heart, soul, and mind. Love your neighbor as yourself. Anything that's contrary to that is sin.

39:24

I don't care if you chose it. Quit talking about yourself. I mean, as if you choosing it has anything to do.

39:33

The question is, is it obedient to God? Is it obedient? Your ability doesn't determine whether or not something is sin.

39:41

God in his holiness determines whether or not something is sin. He's made a command. Are you rising to that command?

39:49

And the answer is no. I have yet to find anyone to argue that same -sex attraction is obedient to God.

39:56

They won't argue that, but yet they'll say that it can be turned to good and all this baloney that is contrary to scripture.

40:02

You're saying that something contrary to God can be turned to good. Something that is disobedient to God can be, if you use your disobedience to do something good, it's like the greedy person, putting them over the finances of the church or perhaps a giving campaign to raise money.

40:20

Like, oh, let's turn his greed to good. No, he needs to quit being greedy. You need to rebuke.

40:28

That's the last person you would want over a ministry dealing with money.

40:34

Yeah. Now, these are good points that are just, and they're so obvious and they're so basic.

40:39

It's almost surprising that more people aren't saying what you're saying.

40:47

I'm curious, what other, I mean, I'm sure if you have more to say about Dion, go ahead, but what other voices out there that might be trusted by your ordinary run -of -the -mill

41:00

Orthodox believer have contributed to this environment where same -sex attraction is normalized?

41:07

Well, another one that surprised me, because whenever I was researching this for a

41:13

Twitter talk that Jeff Wright and I were doing, I didn't expect to find, for example,

41:19

Douglas Wilson. Okay, you're going to, yeah, you definitely have to unpack this one. Douglas Wilson has not been clear on this for at least since 2019.

41:33

And I did a Twitter thread on him about two months ago whenever I saw these quotes, and he responded to me and rebuked me, said

41:44

I was misrepresenting him. And so I pushed him more, and he finally affirmed what the

41:50

Westminster Confession says, which the Westminster Confession says that original sin and its motions are transgressions against God.

42:01

So anything in us that's contrary to God is a transgression against God. It doesn't matter if you choose it or not.

42:06

I mean, that's what the Westminster Confession says. That's what the Westminster larger, shorter catechism and the confession say.

42:13

And Doug Wilson says to, he affirms those. So let me read you. So this is August, 2022.

42:20

This is on Douglas Wilson's website still today. I've asked him to take this down or at least reword it because it's the modern

42:27

Roman Catholic position. It is not the evangelical position. So a listener wrote in to Doug Wilson and asked him on his blog, and this is from August, 2022 on Douglas Wilson's blog, asked him about homosexual concupiscence.

42:48

He says, what are your beliefs on concupiscence and specifically as it pertains to homosexuality?

42:53

This is what Douglas Wilson wrote. He said, I believe that the stirrings of such desire are temptation to be resisted, but not confessed.

43:03

And that indulgence and expression of such desire is to be confessed to God as sin. Under no circumstances, should it be made an aspect of your identity, end quote.

43:13

So he says, the stirrings of desire are temptation. So think about your heart, homosexual desire stirring in your heart.

43:24

He says, you just resist it. Don't confess it as sin. He's saying same -sex attraction is not sin.

43:30

I mean, a modern Roman Catholic could affirm that, could say that. And it's not just that. I listened to a lecture that he gave at Indiana University and he said, can somebody be both

43:42

Christian and gay? And this was a question that someone asked. They stood up at a mic and they asked him, can someone be both a

43:49

Christian and gay? And this is what Doug said. Can somebody be both Christian and gay? Well, certainly.

43:58

Yeah, he can be Christian and gay then. Well, are you expanding it?

44:06

May I expand it a little bit? Are you asking me if it's all right to be Christian and be gay and it's absolutely okay to be gay and there's nothing wrong with it?

44:17

No. I have, speaking as a pastor,

44:23

I'm a pastor of a church that has homosexuals in it.

44:29

Members in good standing who are homosexuals. Now because of that, so if you're asking, is that okay?

44:35

Is it all right for them to be members of the church and have that particular orientation?

44:41

Absolutely. But if you're going to accept what the Bible teaches, they are not permitted to express their sexuality in any kind of external way in an open relationship.

44:53

And if they were, just like we would excommunicate or discipline a guy who moved in with his girlfriend, because if you're a

44:59

Christian, you need to be married. All right, that's God's law. If you're a homosexual male or female with that orientation and you express that, then we would admonish you, we'd help you, we'd do everything we could to help you.

45:14

But at the end of the day, you can't be a member of our church and express your sexuality that way.

45:21

He said, I'm a pastor of a church that has homosexuals in it. Members in good standing who are homosexuals.

45:27

So if you're asking, is that okay? Is it okay for them to be members of the church and have that particular orientation?

45:34

Absolutely. But if you're going to accept what the Bible teaches, they are not permitted to express that sexuality in any kind of external way in open relationship, end quote.

45:46

Again, the modern Roman Catholic position. I believe Doug Wilson has a poor hemartiology, which is the doctrine of sin or study of sin.

45:57

And that's really what all this boils down to. Everybody's so bent on talking about grace and love that we do not have a thorough, clear definition of what sin even is.

46:12

And it's permeated all of evangelicalism. You could say that revivalism is the source, but I mean, it's an overemphasis on the grace of God.

46:21

We don't even know what we're saved from. Yeah. That second quote from Indiana State University is a little shocking to me.

46:28

I wasn't expecting you to go down this road with Doug Wilson. I am anticipating you're going to get flack for this.

46:33

I might do. But particularly on the question of what

46:39

Doug Wilson has said, which I think you've been very crystal clear. You're steeped in the sources here. I think it would be fair to at least let people know what was his objection?

46:47

Because you mentioned that he said that you had misrepresented him or he eventually went back to an orthodox position.

46:57

What do you think now that you've had this exchange with him? Is he just inconsistent or doesn't see the damage he's done?

47:05

What's going on there in your mind? I think he has a weak hemorrhagology and two,

47:13

Doug Wilson's an elite. Doug Wilson does not have to apologize if he's wrong. I mean, he gave me the same response that David Prince gave me.

47:24

I mean, it's just you're an elite. You don't have to you don't he won't even go change.

47:31

It would take him a minute to go change the language in this response to Noah. I particularly asked him to go do that.

47:38

If you if you don't believe this, go change it. Right. He won't. He won't own up to it.

47:44

He won't respond. I mean, it frustrates me because I expect more of Wilson. I expect more of him.

47:51

He is outside of orthodoxy on this issue. Now, he can say he can say that he affirms

47:58

Westminster. But if you can't clearly tell one of your listeners that yes, yes, concupiscence is sin.

48:08

Then you're weak on your understanding of sin, both historically and biblically.

48:15

Yeah. I mean, my hope is for both DeYoung and Wilson and maybe whoever you're going to mention next that they'll see this, that this will get a lot of traction and that will maybe provoke them to go back and retract some of these things that they've said that have been unhelpful.

48:28

I mean, I've I've had to retract some things in the past that I've said that I wasn't really the best way or that was that was wrong.

48:34

And there's no shame in that. Right. That's actually it's shame if you leave it up. It's shame if you continue in steering people in the wrong direction when you've been corrected.

48:42

And so I appreciate your bravery in doing this because you're not making friends by going after some of these popular figures.

48:49

But I would just challenge anyone listening, you know, check out the primary sources here.

48:54

You know, Jared, his he's steeped in these sources. He's giving you quotes. He's trying to represent them fairly.

49:00

He's not trying to do a hack job here. And if what he's saying is true, then there's really no argument.

49:08

It's just we have to deal with the truth of the word of God. And none of us are above that. So anyway,

49:14

I'm just as you can tell, Jared, I am anticipating the people who are going to come on the channel and probably not appreciate you going after certain people that they have respected and let's say have done some good work in other areas.

49:28

But I think what you're doing is vital. So I don't know. Was there anything else you wanted to say about Wilson or do you want to move on to another figure?

49:36

I can tell you I can send you the link for that YouTube that YouTube talk that I just quoted from Wilson and give you the timestamps where he says that.

49:47

Yeah, please do. Anything you send me, I'll put in the info section for the listeners so they can go check it out. Good, good. That'd be that'd be great.

49:53

That way people can listen to his words themselves. And he just has not been clear on this issue.

50:00

And it's just it's very sad. But can you imagine standing up in front of a church and say, yeah, we've got homosexuals in our church that are in good standing?

50:10

I'm a little shocked. I'll be honest. I wasn't expecting that. Yeah. I mean, it's just the language he chose to use.

50:17

He was in front of a secular audience, but even he's giving so much away in using that language.

50:23

And then he's even using orientation language, which what in the world is orientation language other than a pathological sinful desire?

50:31

Like, yeah, I mean, like I'm every sin that you commit, you're oriented to. Yeah. So what does all of a sudden saying that I have an orientation?

50:41

How does that is trying to take sin away using rhetoric rather than using the gospel? I don't need someone's rhetoric to take my sin away.

50:50

I've got a savior. What do I need some man to try to pacify my conscience whenever Jesus died and has given me his righteousness and taken my sin away?

51:02

It's so frustrating. Yeah, because it because it boils down to a false gospel. I don't need man's rhetoric.

51:08

You know, you don't I want to tell people like you don't need man's rhetoric. You don't need the young to pacify you.

51:14

You don't need you don't need Doug Wilson to pacify you. You have a savior. John Popper is probably one of the biggest offenders on this.

51:25

And John Popper is a reason a big reason why I came to understand the gospel.

51:32

I was reading his and of all things, I was looking for a devotion, you know, his devotions pierced by the word, which is like a 30 day.

51:44

Devotion is very small, you know, but that book made such a difference in my life.

51:50

And all it is is his newsletter articles that he wrote to his church for 40 years or whatever.

51:56

And some of those are pulled out and put into a devotion book. I was a I was just a young man looking for something that, you know, devotions, most of them are trash.

52:06

And so I was looking for something that had some meat to it that was still short that I could read and and it's just very challenging and very beneficial.

52:18

But in 2012, John Popper, and this is the co -author of the national statement, he said,

52:25

Same -sex desires and same -sex orientation are part of our broken and disordered sexuality, owing to God's subjection of the created order to futility because of man's sin.

52:49

In Genesis 2, we read about the catastrophic moment when the first man and the first woman rebelled against God.

53:02

And the effects on them and on the world are unfolded for us in chapter 2 and chapter 3 of Genesis and then illustrated in the sin -soaked and death -ridden remainder of the

53:19

Old Testament, indeed, all of history. The Apostle Paul gives the key interpretation of what happened there and its effect on us.

53:31

Here's his key word from Romans 8, verses 20 and 21.

53:38

The creation was subjected to futility. This is

53:43

God's response to human rebellion. The creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it in hope.

53:57

This is God who did this. The devil didn't subject it in hope. God cursed creation.

54:05

We read that in Genesis 3. He subjected it in hope that the creation itself would be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

54:20

And then, maybe one of the most important verses of the Bible from my understanding of almost everything

54:27

I deal with in the brokenness of my life, my marriage, my children, this church, this world,

54:34

Romans 8, 23 goes like this. And the point of Romans 8, 23 is that Paul is looking at the

54:41

Romans in the face, as it were, who are about to say back to him, oh, yes, the curse fell upon the world and the whole creation was subjected, but we've been redeemed.

54:55

And here's his response to that. And not only the creation, but we ourselves who have the first fruits of the

55:05

Spirit grown inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption of sons, the redemption of our bodies.

55:17

That's important. And I'm arguing that same -sex desires and same -sex orientation are in that category of groaning, waiting for the redemption of our bodies, which means they're in the same broad category with all kinds of disordered bodies and minds and emotions.

55:53

If we tried to make a list, if we tried to make a list of all the kinds of emotional and mental and physical brokenness in the human family, the list would be unending.

56:14

And all of us are broken. No exceptions. Everybody is disordered.

56:23

We are disordered in different ways. All of you, without exception, all of you are bent toward desiring things you ought not to desire.

56:41

All of you, and I could document mine, desires.

56:50

We haven't gotten to behavior yet. We all have disorder in our emotions and disorder in our minds and disorder in our bodies.

57:04

And we groan, we groan for the damage we do, waiting, waiting for our final, full, complete adoption, the redemption of our whole bodies, brains, emotions, will.

57:34

This calls for very, very careful distinctions to be made.

57:41

Lest you hurt people or hurt yourself unnecessarily.

57:49

All disorders, all brokenness is rooted in sin. Original sin and our sinful nature.

58:03

All of it. But to be caused by a sinful nature and rooted in sin doesn't make a disorder equal to sinning.

58:23

Let me say it a little differently because our language here just has to be so careful. It is not wrong, but I think proper to say all of our disordered desires that are going after things we shouldn't go after are sinful desires.

58:40

Sinful, meaning they're rooted in sin and they're contaminated and disordered.

58:46

They're bent. Same -sex desires and same -sex orientation are part of our broken and disordered sexuality, owing to God's subjection of the created order to futility because of man's sin.

59:01

He goes on to look at Genesis 3 and Romans 8. This is a lengthy quote, but I want to get kind of to the nitty gritty here.

59:12

Well, I think I'm just going to have to read it. So in Genesis 3, he says, we read about the catastrophic moment when the first man and woman rebelled against God.

59:22

The effects on them and on the world are described in chapters 3 and 4, then illustrated in the sin -soaked and death -ridden history of the

59:29

Old Testament, indeed the history of the world. The Apostle Paul sums it up in Romans 8, 20 through 21, and not only creation, but we ourselves who have the firstfruits of the

59:39

Spirit grown inwardly as we await eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. And I'm arguing that same -sex desires and same -sex orientation are in that category of groaning.

59:50

So groaning for redemption, that same -sex desires and same -sex orientation are in that category, waiting for the redemption of our bodies, which means they are in the same broad category with all kinds of disordered bodies and minds and emotions.

01:00:05

If we tried to make a list of the kinds of emotional, mental, and physical brokenness of the human family, the list would be unending.

01:00:12

And all of us are broken and disordered in different ways. All of you are bent to desire things in different degrees that you should not want.

01:00:18

We are all disordered in our emotions, our minds, our bodies. This is a call for careful distinctions lest you hurt people or yourself unnecessarily.

01:00:27

All our disorders, all our brokenness is rooted in sin, original sin, and our sinful nature.

01:00:33

It would be right to say that same -sex desires are sinful in the sense that they are disordered by sin and exist contrary to God's revealed will, but to be caused by sin and rooted in sin does not make a sinful desire equal to sinning.

01:00:47

Sinning is what happens when rebellion against God expresses itself through our disorders." End quote.

01:00:54

So again, he is saying it's so frustrating because it's gobbledygook, right?

01:01:01

So it's rooted in sin. It's caused by sin, but it's not sin. That's what he's saying.

01:01:10

It makes no sense. What's so sad is there's actually an elder at Bethlehem Baptist Church who says that he is a homosexual.

01:01:23

There's an elder at Pomper's Church, and he actually quoted Pomper. He quotes

01:01:30

Pomper. Are you free to disclose the name or is that not? I don't care one bit to tell you the name.

01:01:36

He runs around calling himself a gay Christian or at least says that this is who

01:01:45

I am or these desires are part of me or whatever. Okay.

01:01:51

Do you remember his name though or the elder by chance? Yeah. Give me one second and I'll tell you.

01:01:58

Okay. Yeah. I didn't want to make you miss a beat. That's another.

01:02:04

A lot of what you're saying are just hard revelations for some of the people who are fans of these folks, and they're going to want, where do you find that?

01:02:11

So that surprises even me. I was like, really? Wow. Yeah. He actually wrote an article for the

01:02:17

Desiring God website. So, so far, where has this been infiltrated? DeYoung.

01:02:23

So thank the Gospel Coalition. All right. It's been infiltrated with Doug Wilson. Think of his ministry.

01:02:29

It's been infiltrated with Crossway and now the Desiring God ministry.

01:02:35

So this is the who's who of evangelical reformed heroes. Grace to you is still fine, right?

01:02:42

Yes. Making sure there's some good guys out. They have been the only ones. I mean, maybe not the only ones, but as far as elites, they have been some of the few.

01:02:52

This guy's name is Nick Rowan. Nick Rowan.

01:02:58

Okay. So he's an elder. Yeah, that's wow. Okay. He's an elder at Bethlehem Baptist, and he argues, he quotes

01:03:08

Piper's article. And then in 2013 on the Desiring God website, this is what he wrote. He says, in other words, although same -sex attraction is a disordered desire owing to the fall and thus rooted in sin and broken by sin, nevertheless, experiencing same -sex attraction is not in itself an act of sinning, end quote.

01:03:30

Wow. Well, we've all become Roman Catholics. Is that what's happening here on this topic?

01:03:37

That's exactly, I mean, modern Roman Catholics. I mean, Council of Trent would say we're heretics.

01:03:42

Council of Trent would say modern Roman Catholicism is heresy. Yeah, it's,

01:03:48

I guess, a result of modernity and humanism and just a man being lovers of themselves. And it's just, it is startling though.

01:03:56

And it's so tempting. It's so subtle to, I mean, some of these quotes that you're reading. I think if I didn't have my guard up,

01:04:02

I would, on at least a few of them, I might miss what is actually being said there.

01:04:10

I mean, so you've gone through these major evangelical industries, if you will, and some of the figureheads in them and how they've capitulated on this.

01:04:22

You said, you know, Grace to You hasn't seemed to fall to this. I mean, are there other good ministries that you can recommend, like positive people out there who are saying what you're saying, or at least they're not saying what some of these other folks have been saying that are that's erroneous.

01:04:38

So there is another co -author of the Nashville statement is

01:04:45

Denny Burke. And Denny Burke and John Piper basically wrote the Nashville statement.

01:04:51

So Denny Burke, I would love to see his first draft. So he wrote the first draft and he sent it to Piper and he said

01:05:00

Piper made so many corrections. He had to be, he was a co -author. He had to say he was a co -author of the

01:05:06

Nashville statement. And so I wish that we could have gotten Denny Burke's first draft for the

01:05:13

Nashville statement. Because Denny Burke, his book with Heath Lambert on homosexuality is great.

01:05:22

Rosaria Butterfield is great on this subject. The PCA study report, which ironically that Dee Young was a part of.

01:05:31

The theology in that thing is basically my dissertation. I mean, it is spot on.

01:05:39

And ironically, Keller was part of that committee as well. And then Keller is part of the problem.

01:05:45

I was going to say, I just was reading some stuff on Keller that was way past some of what you read from Piper, Wilson, and Dee Young.

01:05:51

So that's interesting. Yeah. Some of these guys are inconsistent.

01:05:57

Yes. The PCA study report, most of these guys know their theology, at least they do.

01:06:03

Those who were on that committee and had to actually study their history and had to do a deep dive on the subject, they know it now.

01:06:12

But when you read the PCA study report, you get to the end on the application and they undo a lot of the theology.

01:06:19

Like, you know, it's all about empathy. And I don't, I don't see

01:06:24

Jesus ever being empathetic towards sin, ever. I don't see Paul, Peter.

01:06:30

I don't see any, literally anyone in scripture being empathetic towards sin.

01:06:37

And so this nonsense about being empathetic towards people who are sinning and having sinful desires is not in the

01:06:45

Bible. Repentant sinners, yes, but not people that want to keep their sin. Yes, but empathy, the kind of,

01:06:51

I got to walk in your shoes. Like the way that people, they act like homosexuality is such this awful burden to bear.

01:07:00

Look, you know, John, you battle indwelling sin. I battle indwelling sin.

01:07:06

We all battle indwelling sin. Like who isn't battling indwelling sin?

01:07:12

Join the club. Yeah, exactly. And that's something that's so frustrating with Revoice. They have told people who battle this sin that you have to get around other people who have your same sinful battles.

01:07:24

That's what you got to do. You got to get around. And which is a lie from the pit of hell. What they need to do is get around.

01:07:29

We're all in the same stinking boat. Like we're all battling sin. You who are spiritual restore such a one, not

01:07:36

Alcoholics Anonymous and get together with all the other people with the same problem and don't tempt each other.

01:07:43

Right? Right. Exactly right. Like they literally have said all these people have the same desires.

01:07:49

They're even encouraging them. Revoice just this year. They're like trying to get people who have same sex desires to form covenant households where they covenant friendships.

01:08:01

Oh, I've seen this. Yes. They call it households and they call it. I mean, it's marriage without the sex.

01:08:08

They even advocate for like cuddling and it's like what in the world?

01:08:15

What in the world? Like this, it's just pure evil. And you're going to find that since Revoice one of the main churches has left the

01:08:23

PCA they're headed down. I mean, just this past year, they argued there was a speaker at Revoice that argued that transgenderism is consistent with Roman Catholic theology.

01:08:38

So she was trying to argue in favor of. This is a memorial

01:08:43

Presbyterian church. You're saying, right? No, I'm saying a speaker at Revoice. Wait, does that Revoice?

01:08:49

Okay. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Not necessarily yet. A great Johnson's church. Yeah. But it's so frustrating because we know where this ends.

01:08:59

It ends where James one says it ends, which is death. Right. And there's no way around it.

01:09:05

You have to repent. You have to leave the old man behind. You don't say

01:09:10

I'm going to keep a little bit of it. You have to leave it all behind. And what's so scary,

01:09:16

Rosaria has said this. She said, if Revoice was around whenever I was being saved, whenever I was coming to a saving knowledge of Christ, she said,

01:09:26

I might still be battling same sex desires because they have said that it's not sin.

01:09:35

And if you tell someone that it's not sin, just think it. So this doesn't work. Historically doesn't work.

01:09:42

Biblically. It also doesn't work. Logically. Imagine telling someone that your desire is not sin and then saying, but you can't act on it, right?

01:09:52

Like, if it's not sin, why can't I act on it? Well, because if you act on a desire that's not sin, what does it produce?

01:10:01

Nonsense. So if you're struggling with obesity and you're just like, well, let's go down and watch them make the food.

01:10:09

Let's go down to the barbecue joint. Let's smell the wonderful smoke that's coming up and the meats and then just savor that.

01:10:18

That's not a sin. That's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. But don't ever partake, right? It would seem so ridiculous to someone.

01:10:25

It'd be like, well, why not? If it smells good, if it's good for my nose, why isn't it good for my mouth? It's like telling a white supremacist to go join, go find a church that only has white people.

01:10:36

Right. Go join the Klan, but don't participate in any of their bad activities.

01:10:42

Just kind of be with those people or something. Don't move to a white neighborhood or go like it's just it's empty rhetoric.

01:10:54

It's not biblically consistent. It's not. It doesn't work with any other sin. I mean, you can't argue this about any other sin.

01:11:02

And if you tried, people would laugh you out. So Patrick Schreiner.

01:11:07

Patrick Schreiner's at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. This is Tom Schreiner's son, and he has argued the same things on this issue.

01:11:22

And it's disheartening. I went back and forth with him years ago on the issue of same -sex attraction.

01:11:28

It was on Facebook. I think it was a Desiring God article. He commented, and I replied, and we went back and forth.

01:11:33

That was back when he was at Western Seminary. So I knew where he stood on the issue, but then

01:11:39

Midwestern hired him. And in an article that he has deleted from his blog, he argues that same -sex attraction is not sin.

01:11:50

He says there should be a difference between desire and lust and orientation inclination, arguing that the inclination or orientation is not sin, but desire and lust are sin, which again is the

01:12:03

Roman Catholic position. It's not what Augustine taught. Augustine didn't distinguish between lust and inclination.

01:12:11

They're one in the same. The beginning of a sinful desire, the beginning of lust is still lust.

01:12:17

Like it's just not an actual sin. When they used actual, that just meant that you're volitionally choosing it.

01:12:26

Like you're actively involved in it. But your flesh is dragging your will along before you're actively involved.

01:12:39

No, it makes perfect sense. That's just biblical theology. Well, I hate to end this abruptly because, man, you have so much more

01:12:49

I'm sure you could share, and maybe we should have you on again to talk more about this. I just want to say that,

01:12:54

Dr. Moore, I appreciate everything that you've done. And you've restored my faith in Moore's because after Beth Moore and Russell Moore, I was starting to wonder if I should ever trust a

01:13:05

Moore again, but you've helped me with that. Thank you for that. Thank you for just being brave enough to talk about this.

01:13:15

Some of these people need just a correction and they're not going to be challenged.

01:13:20

I've noticed that when you reach a certain level of influence, people are afraid to challenge you because you have power.

01:13:28

A lot of the people that are around you are either riding your coattails, even though they would never say it that way, or they're benefiting from you.

01:13:35

You become an industry in and of yourself. And you're willing because you're outside of those bubbles to go and sort of prick them and say, look, here's what the word of God says.

01:13:44

Here's what historical theology says. Here's what you're saying. It's not consistent. And I'm just really,

01:13:50

I'm hopeful that people will see this, hear it, and maybe go course correct because of it. And I'm looking forward to those good stories that'll come from it.

01:13:58

So you've encouraged me. I appreciate it. And real quick, before I let you go, what's your website?

01:14:05

Where do you want people to go to check out your material? Right now, I don't really have a website, but check out credoalliance .com.

01:14:13

It's Jeff Wright and Chris Bolt. There's several guys involved in Credo Alliance in writing confessional statements.

01:14:22

Like we've got a confession that is succinct on biblical sexuality, critical race theory.

01:14:29

I mean, there's a group of Baptists that are trying to kind of carve out a clear biblical understanding on these issues.

01:14:38

And it's confessions that your church can adopt. Follow me on Twitter at Jared H.

01:14:44

Moore. And, you know, if you're a publisher, I would love to talk with you about publishing on this subject.

01:14:51

You know, I'm going after Desiring God and Crossway and now Canon Press, evidently.

01:14:57

So, you know, it kind of took a big chunk out of what I can possibly publish with. Yeah, that does narrow down the field quite a bit.

01:15:04

Yeah. So I mean, I'm willing to self -publish because it's ultimately about getting the truth out there to where people can wrestle with it.

01:15:10

And again, I would debate any of these guys on this subject. I'd debate Dion, I'd debate Wilson, I'd debate any of them.

01:15:17

And I know Wilson would slaughter me as far as rhetoric, but this, biblically, there's no way you can argue these things, you know?

01:15:23

Sure. Well, I appreciate it, Dr. Moore. God bless you and your ministry. If people want to check those websites out, please do so.

01:15:32

And we'll, you know, hopefully have some more conversations in the future. I think some hopefully productive conversations as a result of this conversation that we've just had.