New Heavens and New Earth- Laborers' Podcast

New Heavens and New Earth and the Shared Eschatological Ground

Welcome to the Laborers Podcast. We're thankful that you are with us tonight. Tonight, is it just heaven and hell? Is there another option? What's new heavens and new earth? How do we understand these things?

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Broadcast. So what do you think? It's fresh. Fresh. New. Good, good, good. Well, I hope those are positive things. Yes. Good. That voiceover makes me think of CNN every.

Time we boot it up. In a good way, though. Yeah. The better part of CNN, the.

Professionality with the, this is CNN. Gotcha, gotcha. Well, I like that aspect and positive feedback for that. We got a new outro too, so hopefully, at least the three of us will see the outro. I don't know how many people will make it to the end of these podcasts, but at least we'll see it.

Tonight, we're gonna have a discussion about the new heavens and the new earth. You know, we had, Dan and I had Big John on Monday, and it was based on a conversation that Big John had with me, and I think he has had it with some other folks, and he's been thinking and tossing some things around in his mind concerning time and God's relationship with time and our relationship with time and what that looks like and what we can glean from scripture.

And I start off the podcast with them saying, you know, when it comes to time, most of us think to ourselves, well, as humans, we're bound to time, but God, he's outside of time, and we just leave it at that.

We don't dig any deeper. And I think the same thing is true when it comes to, and of course, this is related to eschatology. But like I said at the beginning, we'll say, there's either two destinations.

You've got heaven, you've got hell, and that's pretty much the extent of it. But then, once you start thinking about and talking about studying eschatology, you've got this concept called the new heavens and new earth that you have to deal with.

So, I remember, sorry I'm doing all the talking, but I just recalled I was remembering back when I learned more things about the Jehovah's Witness and how their, I guess, theology, their eschatology in times has to do with the earth, and they call it paradise.

And then, when you're learning about there's going to be a new heavens and a new earth, because growing up, you know, you're limited to kind of what you're taught. You are limited to your resources. And so, I fell into that category of there's two destinations.

And I was never really introduced to this concept of new heavens and new earth. So, when I started hearing about new earth, what's, you know, Jehovah's Witnesses are supposed to be wrong. So, what's up with this earth thing that they're talking about?

And I had to work through all that. Well, what's the Bible really say? You know, where are they wrong? What do I need to learn from scripture? So, there is this concept of a new heavens and a new earth.

And a lot of us in the Truth and Love Network, we come from different eschatological backgrounds. But I think where I wanted to start with the conversation is, where do you guys think...what are some things we have in common when it comes to the new heavens and new world idea from scripture?

They will exist. We will have them.

Amen. Is that the extent of the commonality? I think, yeah. I think basically the only thing I differ on really is just the timing.

I was going to say the same thing. I think really when we get into the nitty-gritty with eschatology, a lot of it is sequence. A lot of it's not so much what happens, but when it happens or how it happens, than it is necessarily anything else.

Like, we all believe that Jesus is coming back. We all believe that he will put every enemy under his feet, that God wins. That is a universal truth of Christianity, regardless of whatever ism we put at the end of millennial.

But we're all on board with the basic fact that Jesus is coming back, that he's going to be victorious, that he's going to establish his kingdom on the earth and dwell in our midst, that he's making his dwelling place with man.

We're all on board there. It's just how and when those things take place. It's sequence.

Christ’s Reign and the Timing of the Millennium

Yeah. Just to clarify, for people who don't know, I'm me as a historic female. People say historic female is opposed to Amil in the sense of I believe Christ is reigning now. It's not the millennium yet.

Millennium is yet to come. It's the millennium. The spiritual reign, when he physically comes back, you know, the spiritual will reunite with the physical. He will physically be known on the earth. I'm assuming that that's one of the millennial things that will happen.

And then after that, for me, that's when we haven't been to earth. Let me pause you for a second. I'm having a hard time understanding you. You're coming in muffled. Oh, I am? There you are. I think when you're in front of the mic, like that, the two of them, let me try to there you go.

Yeah, yeah. All right. OK. So what didn't you hear or did you hear that kind of most of it? I didn't hear. OK, so basically, I tried to speed up this time. So me as a historic female, I believe Christ is reigning now, spiritually reigning now.

When he physically comes back, he will inaugurate his kingdom physically on earth. The millennial reign starts. And after that millennial reign, it could be a thousand years. It could be symbolic for a long period of time.

I'm not dogmatic on the literalness of that thousand year reign, but he reigns in the millennial heavens, a millennial age. And then after that, the new heavens and earth come. OK. So really, the only difference between.

Because I'm hearing a lot of similarities between the post meal and the historic pre meal there, right about the reigning of Christ, except for. You're saying that there's going to be a historic pre meal, believe there's going to be a literal like it's going to be an actual one thousand years.

And that will include a physical reign of Christ. Is that what you're saying? Physical reign of Christ. Me, I'm not dogmatic. I lean towards just a long, very long period of time. I'm not leaning towards the literal thousand years, but I lean towards more long period of time.

OK, so let me ask you then how, because I'm familiar and we can we can talk about it, but I'm familiar with the more of the personal perspective. So with the subject tonight, the new heavens and the earth you were talking about and you were saying similar things to what a postman would say when you're talking about their Jesus is reigning now and you talk about being spiritual.

And that kind of relates to the the perspective. But when we talk about new heavens and new earth. I think for my at least my personal perspective, there's going to be this this physical aspect of the new heavens and the new earth.

But there's a spiritual aspect in the new heavens and new earth. That's a reality right now. Do the historic premiere hold that? I don't believe so. There's something to that with the millennium itself, again, because we separate again, we don't believe the millennium is happening right now.

I think that's the difference between Postman's and almost we don't. But again, like we believe is spiritual reigning, like you said, similar to just like the almost we say, yes, the spiritual reigning, we just don't call that the millennium yet.

We believe the millennium starts when he physically comes back and reigns. But the spirit, him spiritually reigning now speaks to the coming of his millennial reign. OK, yeah. So the so. Is your millennial reign?

Well, not your, but in your perspective, your eschatological logical excuse me, your eschatological perspective. During the millennial reign, is that when the new heavens and the earth are or is it after that?

After that, yeah, I because after the millennium judgment day happens, you know, Christ be the final judgment after that new heaven to new earth and then we go into eternity. So I think that's where we would all have something in common, the timing on the because the Postman is going to say, well, spiritually, we're in the new heavens and new earth, but.

At the consummation of all things, that timing that you're talking about, I don't have any disagreement with that's when the all that's going to come to fruition, the the physical new heavens and new earth will will happen and take place.

Is that your perspective, Tyler, of when when that will happen?

Very, very close. OK, yeah, I think we're a lot closer than we anticipated. When you first put the message out that we were going to talk about this and maybe disagree a bit because I'm coming from the perspective.

So we've got one in each camp here, which is perfect because we've got everything but a dispensational perspective in this group, right? Right here, these three guys. And so really, I think what we're coming down to is not necessarily what is the the millennium, but what is the kingdom of God in regards to the millennium?

I think that's the bigger distinction between our three camps, so to speak, is how that fits into it, because I think we're all in agreement, as you said, that we have the millennium and then we have judgment and then we have the new heavens and the new earth when Christ makes all things new.

The difference being what the millennium means, what that constitutes and how that what that means for us today. So with the historic premill, the idea being that the millennium is a that Christ will physically reign on the earth.

Right. Am I right there?

The historic premill. I'm sorry. You said repeat that again.

The idea with the kingdom of God being that Christ will physically reign on the earth.

Right. When he returns, we believe, just like the element of his spiritual reigning now, we just differ from the amill. We just don't call that the millennium.

Well, as the postmill would say, we're in the millennium now and Christ is reigning. He's just reigning from heaven. Am I am I articulating that accurately?

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I would agree with that statement.

I guess my brand of amillennialism would be a little bit close to that because I would say that Christ, we are in the millennium. The Christ is reigning now, but it's in heaven and that there's a spiritual component to the kingdom of God on the earth right now.

But we don't have it in the physically yet that it's. It's almost you might say a work in progress, that it's slowly being revealed to us. OK, these are very close. Yeah. Yeah.

Reclaiming the Two-Destinations View Through Scripture

Let me switch gears and then come back to fleshing out some more of the details of what we believe from our different perspectives, because I wanted to I want to take us back. I want to take us back because we the three of us, you know, we.

I feel like we've come a long way. We've at least spent some time to. Decide which direction we want to go on certain doctrines, but let's go back to the early years where I was talking about before, where there's two destinations.

And and, you know, most people, the the predominant eschatology, and I didn't even know what that word was back then, was left behind series. There's a rapture going to happen. There's going to be a seven year tribulation.

And I'm not even sure I even knew that there was a new heavens and new earth concept that this was going to take place. But there were just two destinations. Heaven and hell. So how do we. How do we correct that?

Apart from apart from being systematic about it, you know, where we do want to make sure that we are teaching eschatology in our churches and not neglecting that. But how do we how do we correct that in our churches besides being systematic, besides compartmentalizing and saying, you know, this is this is evangelism teaching.

This is eschatology teaching. This is teaching on polity. Helping our members, helping our congregation understand and realize that there's more to this than just, you know, the two two destination. You know, you give them the gospel, you give them their options, two destinations.

But how do we help them to be more familiar with the fact that when all things come to an end, God has planned for there to be a new heavens and a new earth. How do we wrap that up in the gospel and become familiar with it?

Job’s Redeemer and the Restoration of the Earth

Well, if I could take us to Job for a moment. Absolutely. So I've been preparing for the next section in Job for the Bread the Word podcast, and it's that ever famous passage in Job 19. In verse, picking up in verse 23, oh, that my words were now written on, oh, that they were written in a book, that they were graven with an iron pen and led in the rock forever.

The idea being that Job seems to be viewing his sufferings thus far as death. It's like a living death, and that maybe the only relief he would have is from actually dying. And so for this moment here, he considers the fact that he is going to go away and he's going to be forgotten, and his life has not been written down, so to speak, unless God wrote it, unless somebody wrote it in the rock.

But he continues with, for I know that my Redeemer liveth and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth. And with my kindergarten level understanding of Hebrew and the ability to Google things, I found out that the word that we are translating as Redeemer is Goel.

I may be mispronouncing that, I'm not sure. But Goel literally means Kinsman Redeemer. That's very famous with the book of Ruth, that Ruth was taken in by one of her relatives who kind of provided a home for her and essentially restored her out of this.

We also see this in Exodus with I have redeemed you. This is language that is predominantly used of God, of God redeeming them out of Egypt, of redeeming them out of the grave, of redeeming this out of that.

But it also says in Deuteronomy that he's a revenger of blood. And this idea that God is our Redeemer is one of familial connection, that he's family, he's brought us into his fold, and there's a gracious shepherding there, but there's also the God who fights.

And all that is encapsulated in God's character as Redeemer. And so when Job is clinging to this reality that his Redeemer is God, he's stating that God shall vindicate him, that God shall restore him, God shall provide for him.

Even if he dies, even if his living death is consumed by actually dying, by a physical death, he shall be restored by his God, and he shall stand with him on that latter day. And so whatever we do with the new heavens, whatever we do with the destinations, there's this idea that we will be restored to God, that this world that has been consumed by death and destruction and sin shall be restored by the.

Redeemer. And we're talking about the earth that we're living on. I mean, it's not going to disappear, it's not going to vanish, it's not going to burn up and go away, and we're just going to live in one of the two destinations.

God has plans for the redemption of this world. That was what you were saying, Tyler? Yes. Awesome, awesome. And I would encourage us to include that. And you know, NRT, when it comes up, you know, if we're preaching expositionally, but of course, those two destinations, you know, often come up.

And when it's appropriate, you know, we should include that idea. What God has, at least as far as we can understand, what God has in store, what he has planned for us, and this earth is part of that plan.

Any other thoughts on that, Elias? No, no. Hey, Gregory.

See, when I was young in the faith, I know that my understanding was always that the new heaven is heaven, and they were one and the same. So when we read about the streets of gold and some of the stuff in Revelation, this is about heaven.

This is what we get to look forward to when we die, as opposed to this is what it may be like literally, depending on how we want to interpret some things with hermeneutics and all. This is an inkling of what it will be like when Christ.

Makes all things new. So I've got something for you, Elias. Okay. Here we go. I know what you'd like to do to us in the chat group. So here's my proposal. I want to bring something to you. Okay. And I want to start it out by saying it may be an encouragement to you.

This statement may help you with me seeing a spiritual presence view in the Lord's Supper, but at the same time, maybe it will help you see a physical presence view in the kingdom being now in eschatology.

Okay. So as you would say that the bread and the cup, the wine are physical, be it Christ is spiritually present there in the supper or at the supper. In a similar manner, I would say that in eschatology, that though Christ is in heaven, and we like to associate that with being spiritual, Christ is physically present and reigning here on earth because he has us here.

We are his ambassadors. Okay. So as the Lord's Supper has a spiritual view, eschatology has a physical view, a physical reigning. They're happening simultaneously in the partial preterist post-mill perspective.

Does that make sense? Yeah. I understand what you're saying. So if you come more towards me, I might come more towards you about that. Well, and I was going to say, you kind of almost sounded like a very charismatic.

I got a word for you, brother, the way you started that.

That's the reshaped and reshaped Rob. Yeah, I'm reshaped. He's reshaped into a charismatic. Oh, man.

Where's big John? Where's big John? He would be shouting for joy right now.

That was the case. He called me a Presby Castle the other day. Oh, I never heard of that one. Presby Castle, because it's okay to baptize babies, speak in tongues.

And sing psalms. Yep. Well, so, yeah. And I understand what you're saying. And it is true. Christ is here. We are his ambassadors. Um, where his church is at, he is there, you know, two or three guys in his name.

Um, you know, I understand what you're saying. Um, and so the only thing again, like, and just like how you kind of you guys already said, like, we're like, there's a lot of agreement here. And so the only thing that would just separate or have me say, no, in the sense of disagreeing.

It's just I just see in Revelation, Christ returning before the millennium happening. Obviously, it's, you know, Revelation 19 through 20. Is that where we hash that out? And so, yeah, that that's where I would see that.

And I know, I know, I think partial partial predators would say he's spiritual in a spiritual sense, returned in 70 AD in a form of a judgment, I believe.

Right. Right. And the partial predators hold to that one, too. I know the full predators do.

Yes. Yes. Um, it's it's kind of tricky with the terminology, but but prophecy was. Fulfilled. Um. In 70 AD, with the culmination of the destruction of the temple. Now, I won't deny there was definitely something biblically and eschatologically eschatologically significant in the time of 70 AD.

Again, obviously, I'm just not there with a partial preterist in the sense of them saying it was Christ returning and then that, you know, but there's something is significant there.

I take more of an idealist reading a revelation myself, so I'm probably the odd duck here. But back to Revelation 19 through 20, is it your stance, Elias, that the the casting down of Satan is a future reality?

Yes. Yes. OK. Yep. Yeah. I believe that Satan is not bound now. Um, yeah, he's he is not bound. He's still prowling like a roaring lion.

That is after the millennium, or is that during the millennium?

When Christ Christ physically comes back, he will throw Satan into pit and be bound during the millennium.

So where do you fall on that, Tyler? I would say that it is personally my conviction that Satan was bound during Christ's earthly ministry, that when you look at, like, Matthew 12, when he talks about binding the strong man and plundering his home, that is that was accomplished by Christ through his death, burial and resurrection.

That he and then when he I think that concludes that's kind of summarized when he right before his ascension, when he says all authority has been given unto me in heaven and on earth. Mm hmm. I think that's given an idea.

I picture form in revelation through the white horse goes forth to conquer and to conquer who has who carries a bow. He has no arrows. He has a crown was given to him. And I think all of that points to authority being given to Christ.

Over the heavens and over the earth. And do you believe that's when the millennial once he was bound the moment you said, like you said, during Christ's ministry, the millennium was starting? Yes. OK, because that was that was me.

My next question, like, well, OK, so. You would then say if I started, yeah, because I was seeing revelation is right after him being bound, it's the millennium is in effect the thousand years. Yeah. And he's not going to be taken out until the thousand years are over.

If we take a literal thousand years, but yes. Right. Which again, I lean towards a symbolic long period of time. However, we slice that one. Right. Yeah. And I think I think. And we we have kind of really kind of hash this out in our private group chat where like we all obviously have to come to terms with what is what does he mean by he is bound?

Right. Obviously, I take it as him. You know, he's no longer deceiving the nation if he if he is bound and, you know, for me, I see that as I know the Amel Postmill argumentation is where like it's he's just not stopping the gospel being proclaimed and brought forth where.

I see it, I see him no longer deceiving, I still see him deceiving the nations now, because obviously, you know, he's still prowling around the roaring line. You know, Paul says that he's still there if he is bound.

He is no longer doing that. He's still leaders of nations today in our world that are under the prince of the power of the air.

Correct. And I think that is a an ongoing reality until until judgments, until until we get there, but that there is still some deception, but he's not deceiving the whole world constantly, effectually, all-encompassingly, because the gospel is not still constrained to Israel.

The knowledge of the power of God to save is not being restrained to this little nation called Israel. It has gone to Judea and to Samaria and the end of the earth down to the fact that I think we're down to the last billion people that haven't heard the gospel yet.

Mm hmm. I'm sounding post-mill for a second there, but you were you were sound dispensational there. We got to get that last one. So Jesus got us out of here. But the red is I see him bound because we're advancing with.

We're advancing, it's it's going forth and it's going forth oftentimes in spite of any opposition, despite the fact that there is all this persecution. We have churches growing in China. We have churches growing in Pakistan.

We have all of this going on in hostile areas. And so I think there is deception, but it's a restrained deception that he's not entirely successful in deceiving the whole world, but he is deceiving some.

Does that make sense? Look, let me throw this at you, too, and see what see what you do with it, since we're talking about Satan and him being bound and him not deceiving the nations anymore. So I picked this up when when Dan and I back when Dan and I were studying Daniel and this concept of fallen angels or God's heavenly angels.

Oh, I know where you're going. Being in charge of nations. So I think there is I think there is this idea that that at least at some point there there were angels in, you know, over nations, either evil or righteous angels.

And so there's there's that concept to think about when we when we use this terminology in Scripture and Revelation. And with that in mind, and we we look at Revelation where it says Satan will be bound from deceiving the nations.

But then I also thought about, hey, what was Christ's command and how does that relate to Satan being bound from deceiving the nations? His command was disciple the nations. That can be accomplished if Satan is bound from deceiving the nations.

Yes. Does that make sense? Yes. And I know exactly what you're referring to in Daniel. I think you and I talked about this. We did an angels episode on labors some like a year ago, maybe more. And the idea being that Daniel was waiting for an angel and the angel was late.

Which is humorous in itself. And then when the angel does arrive, the angel, I'm this, the Tyler Stander version here says, forgive me, I'm late. I had business with the prince of Persia. The idea being that there was something more than just people going on with politics.

That's right. And I think when you look at what's going on in American politics, that that rings true sometimes that you might be a demon. I'm sorry. And so it it it seems familiar and it definitely makes sense to us.

The idea that there would be more than just people going at it, that there's, there's an added weightiness to the affairs of men. I forgot.

Where I heard it. And this is like a funny side note where I actually, I think John Calvin stated those angels that were in charge of, I think the nations you mentioned that were acting as bishops. Just a little side note, guys, it's an inside joke.

We were discussing church polity and bishops and all that, but anyway, back. So yeah, back to, you know, when you brought that up, grace and peace, brother. And so, so you show you what the point is, basically you're saying there's something definitely going on with, with the angels right now.

And is that what you're saying? Cause obviously you would say that we have reality now. I don't know if, if there was a necessary connection with, with those two things or not. Maybe my, my main point was, and what I wanted to ask you was, do you see a correlation between or correlation connection between this idea and revelation where Satan is bound from deceiving the nations and Christ command in Matthew 28, disciple the nations, because it seems like there is a correlation that one can happen because the other has happened.

Okay. Um, it's just cause also to, after, um, he is bound when he's released, he comes out to, to see the nations. Um, and you know, he gathers them together for war. Right. Um, and, you know, they surround the camp of the saints and beloved in the beloved city and fire came down from heaven, devoured them.

Um, and so I take that as there's still, um, Satan is still raging war against the church. Um, there's still persecution. Um, but I was again, like, obviously we would all agree. He's, he's not going to, um, stop the gospel from being proclaimed right.

The gates of hell should not prevail against the church. Um, and we, there is, uh, the spiritual warfare warfare going on. Um, so yeah, it's just, so when I, when I'm hearing Satan being bound, I just, so how much, um, it's referring to first John with,.

We, we wage war with the world, the flesh and the devil. Um, just how much of what we see today, how much of the persecution, how much of the deception could be attributed to the world or.

The flesh as opposed to the devil? Well, right. I get what you're saying, right. Cause it's not, it is a lot of our just human, humanity's fallen sinful nature, but you know, it's, you know, again, the apostle Paul states that they are currently under the Prince of the power of the air, right.

That they're currently under him. Um, and so, and so, so much, so much were some of us that, you know, you once belonged to that. And so I just see if he is bound, he is no longer the Prince of the power of the air.

If he is bound, he is no longer, um, proud, like a roaring lion.

But if he is the Prince, who's the King?

Well, I think that's more of a, cause him calling him the Prince of the power of the air is saying, yeah, he is, he is allowed to have in some sense dominion, but not in a full sense where, you know, Christ is King.

Now he is ruling. He's sovereign. He saw the devil cannot come out of the, uh, from under the sovereignty of God, right. Some under Christ. So where,.

So any dominion he would have would be a provision from the King.

Right. And so when, when I think you said you, you kind of correlate, um, Rob, um, making disciples of all nations. Oh yeah. I think there's a, I think there's a connection there. And, and I want to say this, um, and give a shout out to Jay because, um, he, he, he informs us and, and we talk about how there's some, there's some big names in Christianity, at least in our circles, I think is it, is it Owen?

That's one of them Australian and, um, vice maybe, maybe another, but the, you know, they, they poopoo Christian nationalism, um, theonomy, they, they poopoo all those things. And they talk about how, um, you, you can't take a nation out to coffee and disciple it.

I mean, they kind of, uh, downplay mock or whatever, using that kind of language. You can't, you know, you can't, um, like, like I said, I think they actually said that you can't take, um, you can't take Turkey out to coffee and disciple it.

Well, we'll know in those terms, don't drink coffee in Turkey. You have that as well. Right. But the fact remains scripture uses that language, that ideology. So you have Satan who is bound from deceiving the nations and you have a Christ who is King that says, right.

And then to bring back in what I was talking about before you did have, like Tyler said, princess, who were you seeing Daniel who were in charge of nations. So there is this idea where, you know, whether they like to say it or not, there is this idea of, of nation, um, guiding, ruling, discipling that is in scripture and deceiving and not deceiving.

And I think, I think, I think it ties to that spiritual warfare. I, I, I, I believe, whereas when Christ is commanding us to the seven nations, he is, that is a real command and we are, we are to do it.

Right. And he is, he is expecting, and he, he knows it's going to happen obviously by his power, but the power of the Holy spirit in us, um, in the gospel, disciple, discipling all, you know, all nations, um, that is the warfare we are, we are raging with, you know, again, against the principle of the year that is, but Christ assures us in that warfare, the gates of hell should not prevail.

The gospel will not be stopped. You may write him, they may kill, they may kill us physically, but you know, we go right to be with the Lord. You know, nothing stops in this gospel. When the gospel will not stop, he,.

The gates of hell will not prevail against the church. So, and Gates is a defensive, um, measure. Right. So I guess the question I'm kicking around right now is what would it look like in your mind for Satan to be bound?

If we don't have that right now, what would it be? Well, there, there, there would be, um, coming a postmill and saying there'd be a golden age.

On the earth. Well, obviously the millennium would kind of be that golden age. Um, right. Cause obviously Christ is physically reigning with us. I mean, we're physically reigning with him. He, he is reigning on earth.

We're with him. Um, and obviously there are historic premial guys that would say there is no actually unbeliever alive during the time of the period of millennium. Not all, not all historic premiums have that viewpoint.

I believe our brother in our group, uh, Michael Schultz holds to that where he believes there's no unbelieving unbeliever during the time of the millennium. They all come back during the time of judgment, right?

And the resurrection. Um, and so there's no unbeliever, there's no, you know, people committing sin, right? Everyone is having this glorified body saying it is bound and it's all regenerate people during the millennium.

So the new heavens, the new earth are not in the millennium thereafter. And I think they, they, they, they, they, after the millennium, after the judgment day, uh, after millennium judgment day happens.

Um, cause after millennium, he, um, right. It says Satan is unbound. He just deceased the nations again. This is where I, I would disagree with our brother, Michael Schultz, even though we're both historic premial, cause he says after Satan is bound, he just, he goes in deceiving and he gathers his army.

So there are, they are unbelievers. I believe there, because who is he deceiving and gathering his army? Cause it says they, they wage war. They surround the city. Well, obviously he, they're immediately fires caught from, from heaven and immediately thrown into like a fire.

Um, and you know, judgment, judgment day happens. And then after that new heaven to new earth is, um, starts. So, so what do we do with, um, this comparison between revelation, uh, 21 and Isaiah 65. It seems as if the revelation passage suggests that there will be that, um, um, people refer to that as describing the new heavens and new earth, and there will be no more sorrow.

There will be no more pain and more death, more tears. Um, but then when you look at Isaiah 65 and it's describing the new heavens and new earth, it says that there, there will be child, childbearing.

There will be, um, then therefore there must be marrying. Um, this says that there will be death because the person that doesn't reach a hundred years old, you know, they'll something's wrong there, their, their life lifespans will be longer, but there's still death during this period.

And it's kind of, it's referred to in verse 17 as the new heavens and new earth. So how do we deal with that? This comparison between Isaiah 65 and revelation 21. Right. Um, cause I, I just, I was just reading Isaiah 65 as you're saying that, um, let me go back to revelation 21.

Um, he would wear every tear no longer be any death. Um, I guess I can go ahead and I will try. No, I don't represent every post meal. I'm still learning. I'm going, I'm taking this journey. And from at least my perspective at this point, I would take these two as, uh, two, two separate times.