New Heavens and New Earth- Laborers' Podcast

Welcome to the Laborer's Podcast. We're thankful that you are with us tonight. Tonight, is it just heaven and hell?

Is there another option? What's new heavens and new earth? How do we understand these things?

Stick with us and we'll have a conversation. Welcome to the Laborer's Podcast, which is a part of the

Truth in Love Network. Join us as together we strive to grow up together in all things into Christ.

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Now, let's join our laborers for tonight's broadcast. So what do you think?

It's fresh. Fresh. New. Good, good, good. Well, I hope those are positive things.

Yes. Good. That voiceover makes me think of CNN every time we boot it up.

In a good way, though. Yeah. The better part of CNN, the professionality with the, this is

CNN. Gotcha, gotcha. Well, I like that aspect and positive feedback for that.

We got a new outro too, so hopefully, at least the three of us will see the outro. I don't know how many people will make it to the end of these podcasts, but at least we'll see it.

Tonight, we're gonna have a discussion about the new heavens and the new earth.

You know, we had, Dan and I had Big John on Monday, and it was based on a conversation that Big John had with me, and I think he had had it with some other folks, and he's been thinking and tossing some things around in his mind concerning time and God's relationship with time and our relationship with time and what that looks like and what we can glean from scripture.

And I start off the podcast with them saying, you know, when it comes to time, most of us think to ourselves, well, as humans, we're bound to time, but God, he's outside of time, and we just leave it at that.

We don't dig any deeper, and I think the same thing is true when it comes to, and of course, this is a, this is related to eschatology, but like I said at the beginning, we'll say there's either two destinations.

You've got heaven, you've got hell, and that's pretty much the extent of it, but then once you start thinking about and talking about study eschatology, you've got this concept called the new heavens and the new earth that you have to deal with.

So I remember, sorry I'm doing all the talking, but I just recalled

I was remembering back when I learned more things about the Jehovah's Witness and how their,

I guess, theology, their eschatology in times has to do with the earth, and they call it paradise.

And then when you're learning about there's gonna be a new heavens and a new earth, because growing up, you know, you're limited to what kind of what you're taught.

You were limited to your resources, so I fell into that category of there's two destinations, and I was never really introduced to this concept of new heavens and new earth.

So when I started hearing about new earth, what's, you know,

Jehovah's Witnesses are supposed to be wrong. So what's up with this earth thing that they're talking about?

And I had to work through all that. Well, what's the Bible really say? You know, where are they wrong?

What do I need to learn from Scripture? So there is this concept of a new heavens and a new earth, and a lot of us in the

Truth and Love Network, we come from different eschatological backgrounds, but I think where I wanted to start with the conversation is where do you guys think, what are some things we have in common when it comes to the new heavens and new earth idea from Scripture?

They will exist. We will have them. Amen. Is that the extent of the commonality?

I think, yeah, commonality. I think basically the only thing I differ on, really, is just the timing.

I was gonna say the same thing. I think, yeah, I think really when we get into the nitty -gritty with eschatology, a lot of it is sequence.

A lot of it's not so much what happens, but when it happens, or how it happens, than it is necessarily anything else.

Like, we all believe that Jesus is coming back. We all believe that he will put every enemy under his feet, that God wins.

That is a universal truth of Christianity, regardless of whatever ism we put at the end of millennial.

But we're all on board with the basic facts that Jesus is coming back, that he's going to be victorious, that he's going to establish his kingdom on the earth and dwell in our midst.

He is making his dwelling place with man. We're all on board there.

Right. It's just how and when those things take place. Right. Yeah, just to clarify, people who don't know,

I'm me as a historic female. People say historic female is opposed to Amil, in the sense of,

I believe Christ is reigning now, it's not the millennium yet, the millennium is yet to come.

The spiritual reign will be physically coming back, you know, the spiritual will unite with the physical, you will physically reign on the earth.

I'm assuming that that's when the millennium will happen, and then after that, for me, that's when the millennium will start.

Let me pause you for a second. I'm having a hard time understanding you. You're coming in muffled.

Oh I am? There you are. I think when you're in front of the mic, like the tip. Yeah, let me try to face it towards me.

There you go. Yeah, that's better. Okay, so what didn't you hear or did you hear that kind of?

Most of it I didn't hear. Okay, so basically, I'll try to speed it up this time. So me as a historic female,

I believe Christ is reigning now, spiritually reigning now. When he physically comes back, he will inaugurate his kingdom physically here on earth.

The millennial reign starts. And after that millennial reign, it could be a thousand years, it could be symbolic for a long period of time.

I'm not dogmatic on the literalness of that thousand year reign, but he reigns.

The millennial happens, the millennial age, and then after that, the new heavens and new earth come. Okay, so really the only difference between, because I'm hearing a lot of similarities between the post meal and the historic pre meal there.

Right. About the reigning of Christ, except for, you're saying that there's going to be a historic pre meal where there's going to be a literal, like it's going to be an actual one thousand years and that will include a physical reign of Christ.

Is that what you're saying? Physical reign of Christ. Me, I'm not dogmatic. I lean towards just a long, very long period of time.

I'm not leaning towards the literal thousand years, but I lean towards more long period of time. Okay, so let me ask you then how, because I'm familiar and we can talk about it, but I'm familiar with more of the post meal perspective.

So with the subject tonight, the new heavens and the earth, you were talking about and you were saying similar things to what a postman would say when you're talking about their

Jesus is reigning now. And you talk about being spiritual and that kind of relates to the, the omnipotent perspective.

But when we talk about new heavens and new earth, I think for my, at least my personal perspective, there's going to be this, this physical aspect of the new heavens and the new earth.

But there's a spiritual aspect in the new heavens and new earth. That's a reality right now.

Do the historic pre meal hold that? I don't believe so.

There's something to that with the millennium itself, again, because we separate again, we don't believe the millennium is happening right now.

I think that's the difference between post meals and almost we don't. But again, like we believe he's spiritual reigning, like you said, similar to just like the almost we say, yes, the spiritual reigning.

We just don't call that the millennium yet. We believe the millennium starts when he physically come back and reigns.

But the spirit, him spiritually reigning now speaks to the coming of his millennial reign.

Okay. Yeah. So, so is your millennial reign?

Well, not your, but in your perspective, your eschatological logical, excuse me, your eschatological perspective.

During the millennial reign, is that when the new heavens and the earth are? Or is it after that?

After that, yeah. Because after the millennium judgment day happens, you know,

Christ be the final judgment. After that, new heavens and new earth.

And then we go into eternity. So I think that's where we would all have something in common.

The timing on the, because the post mill is going to say, well, spiritually, we're in the new heavens and new earth.

But at the consummation of all things, that timing that you're talking about,

I don't have any disagreement with. That's when all that's going to come to fruition.

The physical new heavens and new earth will will happen and take place. Is that your perspective,

Tyler, of when that will happen? Very, very close. Okay. I think we're a lot closer than we anticipated when you first put the message out that we were going to talk about this and maybe disagree a bit.

Because I'm coming from the AMEL perspective. So we've got one in each camp here, which is perfect.

Because we've got everything but a dispensational perspective in this group right here, these three guys. And so really,

I think what we're coming down to is not necessarily what is the millennium, but what is the kingdom of God in regards to the millennium?

I think that's the bigger distinction between our three camps, so to speak, is how that fits into it.

Because I think we're all in agreement, as you said, that we have the millennium and then we have judgment.

And then we have the new heavens and the new earth when Christ makes all things new. The difference being what the millennium means, what that constitutes, and what that means for us today.

So with the historic premill, the idea being that the millennium is that Christ will physically reign on the earth.

Am I right there? The historic premill, I'm sorry. Repeat that again?

The idea with the kingdom of God being that Christ will physically reign on the earth. Right, when he returns.

We believe, just like the almirah, his spiritual reigning now, we just differ from the almirah. We just don't call that the millennium.

Well, as the postmill would say, we're in the millennium now, and Christ is reigning. He's just reigning from heaven.

Am I articulating that accurately? Yes. I would agree with that statement.

I guess my brand of amillennialism would be a little bit close to that because I would say that we are in the millennium, that Christ is reigning now, but it's in heaven.

And that there's a spiritual component to the kingdom of God on the earth right now, but we don't have it in the physical yet.

That it's almost, you might say, a work in progress. That it's slowly being revealed to us.

Okay. These are very close. Yeah. Let me switch gears and then come back to fleshing out some more of the details of what we believe from our different perspectives.

Because I want to take us back. I want to take us back because we, the three of us, you know, we,

I feel like we've come a long way. We've at least spent some time to decide which direction we want to go on certain doctrines.

But let's go back to the early years where I was talking about before where there's two destinations.

And, you know, most people, the predominant eschatology, and I didn't even know what that word was back then, was left behind series.

There's a rapture going to happen. There's going to be a seven -year tribulation. And I'm not even sure

I even knew that there was a new heavens and new earth concept. That this was going to take place.

But there were just two destinations. Heaven and hell. So how do we, how do we correct that?

Apart from, apart from being systematic about it. You know, where, yeah, we do want to make sure that we are teaching eschatology in our churches and not neglecting that.

But how do we, how do we correct that in our churches besides being systematic?

Besides compartmentalizing and saying, you know, this is evangelism teaching.

This is eschatology teaching. This is teaching on polity. Helping our members, helping our congregation understand and realize that there's more to this than just, you know, the two destinations.

You know, you give them the gospel. You give them their options, two destinations. But how do we help them to be more familiar with the fact that when all things come to an end,

God has planned for there to be a new heavens and a new earth. How do we wrap that up in the gospel and become familiar with it?

Wow. If I could take us to Job for a moment.

Absolutely. So I've been preparing for the next section in Job for the

Bread of the Word podcast. And it's that ever -famous passage in Job 19 in verse, picking up in verse 23.

Oh, that my words were now written. Oh, that they were written in a book, that they were graven with an iron pen and led in the rock forever.

The idea being that Job seems to be viewing his sufferings thus far as death.

It's like a living death and that maybe the only relief he would have is from actually dying.

And so for this moment here, he considers the fact that he is going to go away and he's going to be forgotten.

And his life has not been written down, so to speak, unless God wrote it, unless somebody wrote it in the rock.

But he continues with 4. I know that my

Redeemer liveth and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth.

And with my kindergarten level understanding of Hebrew and the ability to Google things,

I found out that the word that we are translating as Redeemer is goel. I may be mispronouncing that.

I'm not sure. But goel literally means kinsman redeemer, and that's very famous with the book of Ruth.

That Ruth was taken in by one of her relatives who kind of provided a home for her and essentially restored her out of this.

We also see this in Exodus with I have redeemed you. This is language that is predominantly used of God, of God redeeming them out of Egypt, of redeeming them out of the grave, of redeeming this out of that.

But it also says in Deuteronomy that he's a revenger of blood. And this idea that God is our

Redeemer is one of familial connection, that he's family, he's brought us into his fold.

And there's a gracious shepherding there, but there's also the God who fights. And all of that is encapsulated in God's character as Redeemer.

And so when Job is clinging to this reality that his Redeemer is

God, he's stating that God shall vindicate him, that God shall restore him,

God shall provide for him. Even if he dies, even if his living death is consumed by actually dying, by a physical death, he shall be restored by his

God. And he shall stand with him on that latter day. And so whatever we do with the new heavens, whatever we do with the destinations, there's this idea that we will be restored to God, that this world that has been consumed by death and destruction and sin shall be restored by the kinsman

Redeemer. And we're talking about the earth that we're living on.

I mean, it's not going to disappear. It's not going to vanish. It's not going to burn up and go away, and we're just going to live in one of the two destinations.

God has plans for the redemption of this world. Is that what you were saying,

Tyler? Yes. Awesome, awesome. And I would encourage us to include that in our team when it comes up, if we're preaching expositionally.

But, of course, those two destinations often come up.

And when it's appropriate, we should include that idea. What God has, at least as far as we can understand, what

God has in store, what he has planned for us, and this earth is part of that plan.

Any other thoughts on that, Elias? No, no. Hey, Gregory.

See, when I was young in the faith, I know that my understanding was always that the new heaven is heaven.

And they were one and the same. So when we read about the streets of gold and some of this stuff in Revelation, this is about heaven.

This is what we get to look forward to when we die. As opposed to this is what it may be like literally, depending on how we want to interpret some things with hermeneutics and all.

This is an inkling of what it will be like when Christ makes all things new.

So I've got something for you, Elias. Okay. Here we go.

I know what you'd like to do to us in the chat group. So here's my proposal.

I want to bring something to you. Okay. And I want to start it out by saying it may be an encouragement to you.

This statement may help you with me seeing a spiritual presence view in the

Lord's Supper. But at the same time, maybe it will help you see a physical presence view in the kingdom being now in eschatology.

Okay. So as you would say that the bread and the cup, the wine are physical, yet Christ is spiritually present there in the supper or at the supper in a similar manner.

I would say that in eschatology that though Christ is in heaven and we like to associate that with being spiritual.

Christ is physically present and reigning here on Earth because he has us here.

We are his ambassadors. Okay. I'm tracking.

So as the Lord's Supper has a spiritual view, eschatology has a physical view, a physical reigning.

They're happening simultaneously in the partial preterist postmill perspective. Does that make sense?

Yeah, I understand what you're saying. So if you come more towards me,

I might come more towards you. How about that? Well, and I was going to say, you kind of almost sound like a very charismatic.

I got a word for you, brother. The way you started that. That's the reshaped and reshaped

Rob. I'm reshaped. He's reshaped into a charismatic. Oh, man.

Where's Big John? Where's Big John? He would be shouting for joy right now if that was the case.

Jay called me a presby -costal the other day. I never heard of that one.

Presby -costal because it's okay to baptize babies, speak in tongues, and sing psalms.

I understand what you're saying, and it is true. Christ is here.

We are his ambassadors. Where his church is at, he is there.

Two or three guys in his name. I understand what you're saying.

Just like how you guys already said, there's a lot of agreement here.

The only thing that would just separate or have me say no in the sense of disagreeing,

I just see in Revelation, Christ returning before the millennium happened.

Obviously, it's Revelation 19 -20. Is that where we hash that out?

That's where I would see that. Partial preterists would say he's in a spiritual sense returned in 70

AD in a form of a judgment, I believe. Do partial preterists hold to that one, too?

I know the full preterists do. Yes. Yes. It's kind of tricky with the terminology, but prophecy was fulfilled in 70

AD with the culmination of the destruction of the temple. I won't deny there was definitely something biblically and eschatologically significant in the time of 70

AD. Again, obviously, I'm just not there with a partial preterist in the sense of them saying it was

Christ returning and then that. But there's something insignificant there. I take more of an idealist reading of Revelation myself, so I'm probably the odd duck here.

But back to Revelation 19 -20, is it your stance, Elias, that the casting down of Satan is a future reality?

Yes. I believe that Satan is not bound now.

He is not bound. He's still prowling like a roaring lion. That is after the millennium, or is that during the millennium?

When Christ physically comes back, he will throw

Satan into the pit and be bound during the millennium. So where do you fall on that,

Tyler? I would say that it is personally my conviction that Satan was bound during Christ's earthly ministry.

That when you look at Matthew 12, when he talks about binding the strong man and plundering his home, that was accomplished by Christ through his death, burial, and resurrection.

And I think that concludes, that's kind of summarized right before his ascension when he says,

All authority has been given unto me in heaven and on earth. I think that's given in picture form in Revelation through the white horse who goes forth to conquer and to conquer, who carries a bow, but he has no arrows.

A crown was given to him. And I think all of that points to authority being given to Christ over the heavens and over the earth.

And do you believe that's when the millennial, once he was bound, the moment, like you said, during Christ's ministry, the millennium was starting?

Yes. Okay. That was going to be my next question. Okay, so you would then say if millennial started, yeah.

Because obviously in Revelation, right after him being bound, the millennium is in effect.

The thousand years. Yeah. And he's not going to be taken out until the thousand years are over.

If we take a literal thousand years, but yes. Right. Which again, I lean towards a symbolic long period of time.

However we slice that one. Right, yeah. And I think, and we have kind of really kind of hashed this out in our private group chat where like we all obviously have to come to terms with what does he mean by he is bound, right?

Obviously, I take it as him, you know, he's no longer deceiving the nations if he is bound.

And, you know, for me, I see that as, I know the Amill and Postmill argumentation is where like it's, he's just not stopping the gospel being proclaimed and brought forth where I see it.

I see him no longer deceiving. I still see him deceiving the nations now, because obviously, you know, he's still prowling around the roaring lion.

You know, Paul Apostle Paul says that he's still there. If he is bound, he is no longer doing that.

He's no longer deceiving nations. There's still leaders, right, of nations today in our world that are under the prince of the power of the air.

Correct. And I think that is an ongoing reality until judgment, until we get there, that there is still some deception.

But he's not deceiving the whole world constantly, effectually, all -encompassingly.

Because the gospel is not still constrained to Israel. The knowledge of the power of God to save is not being restrained to this little nation called

Israel. It has gone to Judea and to Samaria and the ends of the earth, down to the fact that I think we're down to the last billion people that haven't heard the gospel yet.

I'm sounding postmill for a second there, but... You were sounding dispensational there.

We got to get that last one so Jesus can get us out of here. But the red is,

I see him bound because we're advancing with...

We're advancing. It's going forth, and it's going forth oftentimes in spite of any opposition.

Despite the fact that there is all this persecution. We have churches growing in China. We have churches growing in Pakistan.

We have all of this going on in hostile areas. And so I think there is deception, but it's a restrained deception.

That he's not entirely successful in deceiving the whole world, but he is deceiving some, if that makes sense.

Let me throw this at you two and see what you do with it.

Since we're talking about Satan and him being bound and him not deceiving the nations anymore.

So I picked this up back when Dan and I were studying Daniel. And this concept of fallen angels or God's heavenly angels.

Oh, I know where you're going. Being in charge of nations. So I think there is this idea that at least at some point there were angels over nations.

Either evil or righteous angels. And so there's that concept to think about when we use this terminology in Scripture and Revelation.

And with that in mind, and we look at Revelation where it says, Satan will be bound from deceiving the nations.

But then I also thought about, hey, what was Christ's command?

And how does that relate to Satan being bound from deceiving the nations?

His command was disciple the nations. That can be accomplished if Satan is bound from deceiving the nations.

Does that make sense? Yes, and I know exactly what you're referring to in Daniel. I think you and I talked about this.

We did an angels episode on labors something like a year ago, maybe more. And the idea being that Daniel was waiting for an angel, and the angel was late.

Which is humorous in itself. And then when the angel does arrive, the angel – this is the

Tyler Standard version here. It says, forgive me, I'm late. I had business with the prince of Persia.

The idea being that there was something more than just people going on with politics.

That's right. And I think when you look at what's going on in American politics, that rings true sometimes that you might be a demon.

I'm sorry. And so it seems familiar, and it definitely makes sense to us, the idea that there would be more than just people going at it.

That there's an added weightiness to the affairs of men. I forgot where I heard it.

And this is a funny side note. Actually, I think John Calvin stated those angels that were in charge of,

I think the nations you mentioned, were acting as bishops. Just a little side note. Guys, it's an inside joke.

We're discussing church polity and bishops and all that. Anyway, back to –

Yeah, back to – What's up, Haps? When you brought that up. Grace and peace, brother. The point is, basically, you're saying there's something definitely going on with the angels right now.

Is that what you're saying? Because obviously you would say that would be a reality now. I don't know if there was a necessary connection with those two things or not.

Maybe. My main point was, and what I wanted to ask you, was do you see a correlation between – or correlation connection between this idea in Revelation where Satan is bound from deceiving the nations and Christ's command in Matthew 28 to disciple the nations?

Because it seems like there is a correlation that one can happen because the other has happened.

Okay. It's just – because also, too, after he is bound, when he's released, he comes out to deceive the nations and he gathers them together for war.

They surround the camp of the saints in the beloved city and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

And so I take that as there's still –

Satan is still waging war against the church. There's still persecution. But again, obviously, we would all agree he's not going to stop the gospel from being proclaimed, right?

The gates of hell shall not prevail against the church. And there is spiritual warfare going on.

So yeah, it's just so – when I'm hearing Satan being bound,

I just – So how much – just referring to 1

John, we wage war with the world, the flesh, and the devil. Just how much of what we see today, how much of the persecution, how much of the deception could be attributed to the world or the flesh as opposed to the devil?

Well, right. I get what you're saying, right, because it's not all – it is a lot of our just humanity's fallen sinful nature.

But it's – again, the apostle Paul states that they are currently under the prince of the power of the air, right?

That they're currently under him. And so much worse for some of us that we once belonged to that.

And so I just see if he is bound, he is no longer the prince of the power of the air if he is bound.

He is no longer crowned like a roaring lion. But if he is the prince, who is the king? Hmm. Well, I think that's more of a – because calling him the prince of the power of the air is saying, yeah, he is allowed to have in some sense dominion but not in a full sense where Christ is king now.

He is ruling. He's sovereign. The devil cannot come from under the sovereignty of God, right, under Christ.

So any dominion he would have would be a provision from the king. Right. And so I think you said you kind of correlate,

Rob, making disciples of all nations. Yeah, I think there's a connection there.

And I want to say this and give a shout -out to Jay because he informs us and we talk about how there's some big names in Christianity, at least in our circles.

I think – is it Owen, that's one of them, Australian, and Vice, maybe another.

But they pooh -pooh Christian nationalism, theonomy. They pooh -pooh all those things.

And they talk about how you can't take a nation out to coffee and disciple it.

I mean they kind of downplay mock or whatever using that kind of language. You can't – you know, you can't – like I said,

I think they actually said that you can't take Turkey out to coffee and disciple it. Well, no, in those terms you can't do it like that.

They don't drink coffee in Turkey. You have that as well. But the fact remains

Scripture uses that language, that ideology. So you have

Satan who is bound from deceiving the nations and you have a Christ who is king that says go, disciple the nations.

Right, I see what you're saying. And then to bring back to what I was talking about before, you did have, like Tyler said, princes who we see in Daniel who were in charge of nations.

So there is this idea, whether they like to say it or not, there is this idea of nation guiding, ruling, discipling that is in Scripture and deceiving and not deceiving.

I think it ties to that spiritual warfare, I believe, whereas when

Christ is commanding us to disciple the nations, that is a real command and we are to do it.

Right, and he is expecting and he knows it's going to happen obviously by his power, but the power of the

Holy Spirit in us, in the gospel, discipling all nations, that is the warfare we are waging against the prince of power of the year.

But Christ assures us in that warfare the gates of hell should not prevail. The gospel will not be stopped.

They may kill us physically, but we go right to be with the Lord, nothing stops.

The gospel will not stop. The gates of hell will not prevail against the church. And gates is a defensive measure.

Right. So I guess the question I'm kicking around right now is what would it look like in your mind for Satan to be bound?

If we don't have that right now, what would it be? Well, there would be...

Without becoming a post -mill and saying there'd be a golden age on the earth. Well, obviously the millennium would kind of be that golden age, right?

Because obviously Christ is physically reigning with us. I mean, we're physically reigning with him. He is reigning on earth, we're with him.

And obviously there are historic pre -mill guys that would say there is no actually unbeliever alive during the time of the period of millennium.

Not all historic pre -mills have that viewpoint. I believe our brother in our group, Michael Schultz, holds to that, where he believes there's no unbelieving unbeliever during the time of the millennium.

They all come back during the time of judgment, right? And the resurrection. And so there's no unbeliever.

There's no, you know, people committing sin, right? Everyone is having this glorified body.

Satan is bound. And it's all regenerate people during the millennium. So the new heavens and the new earth are not in the millennium thereafter.

They're after the millennium, right? After the judgment day. After the millennium, judgment day happens.

Because after the millennium, it says Satan is unbound. He deceives the nations again.

This is where I would disagree with our brother Michael Schultz. Even though we're both historic pre -mill. Because he says after Satan is bound, he goes in deceiving and he gathers his army.

So there are unbelievers, I believe, there. Because who is he deceiving and gathering his army? Because it says they wage war.

They surround the city. But obviously, there are immediately fires caught from heaven. And they're immediately thrown into like a fire.

And, you know, judgment day happens. And after that, new heavens and new earth starts. So what do we do with this comparison between Revelation 21 and Isaiah 65?

It seems as if the Revelation passage suggests that there will be that time.

People refer to that as describing the new heavens and new earth. And there will be no more sorrow.

There will be no more pain and more death, more tears. But then when you look at Isaiah 65, and it's describing the new heavens and new earth, it says that there will be childbearing.

There will be, then therefore there must be marrying. It says that there will be death.

Because the person that doesn't reach 100 years old, you know, something's wrong.

Their lifespans will be longer, but there's still death during this period.

And it's referred to in verse 17 as the new heavens and new earth. So how do we deal with that, this comparison between Isaiah 65 and Revelation 21?

Right. Because I was just reading

Isaiah 65 as you were saying that. Let me go back to Revelation 21. He will have to wear every tear, there will no longer be any death.

I guess I can go ahead and I will try. Now, I don't represent every post -meal. I'm still learning.

I'm taking this journey. And from at least my perspective at this point, I would take these two as two separate times.

So as a post -meal, I would say that currently we are in the new heavens and new earth.

Revelation speaks of, you know, the new

Jerusalem coming down. And there's a new temple.

We are referred to now as the temple of God. And we are referred to as a new creation, new creatures in Christ.

Christians are referred to those things. Christians are referred to as the temple of God. We collectively are referred to as the temple of God.

And so there's this idea that we are currently the new heavens and new earth.

And then there's going to be a physical new heavens and new earth at the consummation.

And we agree on the timing of that. If I'm not mistaken, that most post -meals would agree with,

Elias, what you said. Your timing on that. That this physical new heavens and new earth where afterwards is eternity.

You know, the eternity of eternity is where there is no more death. There is no more pain, suffering, and tears. We believe that's when that consummation of the new physical heavens and new earth exists.

So my take on Isaiah 65 and Revelation 21 is in the spiritual aspect of it, as we progressively, like Tyler the

Amil admitted, we are advancing. We're getting better.

The gospel is advancing. Technology is advancing. And so that means lifespan is going to be advancing.

And so I think as we are in this spiritual new heavens and new earth, because we are his temple, we are his new creations, we're in a new covenant, that there's still going to be death as things continually get better and better.

But then there is going to be that physical new heavens and new earth at the consummation where all these things, death, where is your sting?

It is no more. It's gone. That's the last enemy. And so that will be my perspective.

Yeah, it definitely causes one to definitely study more, study the word more, you know, find out what was

Isaiah speaking of, right? Was he speaking of, like, we all agree the new heavens, the physically new heavens and new earth will be eternity and eternities.

That's later. Was he speaking of that? Was he speaking of what you mentioned where the postman was? They believe in the spiritual now.

And again, it's definitely what caused me to study more because, like,

I see. Yeah, again, I see Christ spiritually reigning now.

And it's, yeah, again, it's definitely hard where, again,

I just wouldn't call that the millennium. But the millennium, I believe there will be definitely about,

I believe in the millennium there will be people, you know, the youngest young person, you know, will die at the age of 100.

So I believe that that will happen there. Yeah, I guess you're saying my distinction where I believe,

I think Isaiah kind of calls, in a sense, the millennium, new heavens and new earth, but not when the physical heavens and new earth start, you know, and then eternities happen.

But, yeah, I want to be very careful how I, you know, word that. Because, you know,

I don't want to, you know, we're talking about scripture here. So I don't want to place what Isaiah is referring to something that he's not.

Right. Tyler, do you have an input on the comparison between Isaiah 65 and Revelation 21?

Honestly, if you weren't going to talk about us being the temple, I was going to. So we're pretty much stride for stride on that one.

Okay. And it's something akin to, like with Jacob's ladder in Genesis, that we see that as this grandiose vision that Jacob has of the angels ascending and descending on this ladder.

And then we get to the New Testament, and Jesus says, I'm the ladder. It's a lot like that, that it seemed like something supernatural, and it was really this normal thing that was given more meaning.

I think it's the same way with the correlation between the temple and the people of God. Just as Paul says, we've been built up into a spiritual house, that we are knit together, that we are united in Christ in such a way that we are bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh.

So we have become this glorious temple that we're told in Isaiah will be built.

And it's something that's different from any temple that's been built as of that time. It doesn't match the description of any temple that had been, but we're told that there was one.

And I think the fulfillment there is when Christ said, on this rock, I will build my ecclesia.

Yeah. And also, too,

I think with, if you guys are agreeing with me, where if you would agree with me, where in this new heaven to new earth,

Christ restores what was once Adam and Eve had in Eden.

There is a rest there is restoring there. Yes. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

And something Tyler mentioned quickly that made me bring that up. I'm having a brain fart right now because.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Because you speak of the temple and you said it was once before there, but now isn't.

So, yeah, there's something there where God is restoring what once was.

Yeah. Yeah. And, guys, I would encourage you, you too, and everybody else who may be listening to go and watch

Monday night's Truth and Love podcast, where Dan and I interviewed John Jones and his thoughts on time.

Because the more I'm having this conversation with you all, I'm thinking about how it relates so much with what we were talking about concerning time.

Because think about the concept of in the garden.

The last you bring up the garden. God walked in the garden. Right. And then we know what happened at the fall and then all in between.

And then Christ comes. But God himself, we know what we know about the hypostatic union where Christ is fully

God and fully man. But God walks the earth. But we also understand that we have this concept of us man being bound to time and God outside of time.

And somehow God walks with us in the garden and with as Christ walked on earth.

And then we have this new heavens and new earth where what is happening spiritually, where where God is living inside of us.

We have this this relationship. And you were talking about this restoration of what was in the garden is going to happen in this new heavens and new earth, where there's going to be this this physical walking together again, where we're walking together now.

Now, spiritually, we will be walking together then physically as Adam and Eve walk with God physically, then as Christ walked with his disciples, then the the the two concepts that are separate.

Now, the the the physical and time bound and the spiritual where Christ is reigning in the heavenlies will be.

Possibly. One reality and brought together again. Maybe.

And it kind of associates and fits together with the conversation that we were having with John Jones, and it's all it's all so fascinating.

And as we concluded with Monday night. It speaks to the bigness and the glory of God that these are gigantic concepts that are beyond us.

And it speaks of how big and wonderful God is. That that these realities that we can't wrap our brain around are true.

And they they are realities that God, who is in the heavenlies, in the spiritual walk with us, who are time bound and how that works is marvelous and amazing.

That we'll be able to learn more about it in eternity and and actually experience it in eternity.

Right. And I'm I'm reading a book now. And I said this in the chat where by Father Paul Castellano, a reformed

Anglican called As It Is in Heaven. In fact, I might do a quick review after I'm done reading it.

But he mentions this. What you see in scripture, it gives you glimpses of what's in heaven.

Right. And obviously, we've been talking about new heavens and earth. This will come a physical reality in this first restoring of this.

I think it's called Edenic restoring. What was once there in Eden.

Kind of like you said, where he says in the book where we can't physically, we can't in our finite fallen minds wrap our head around this fully.

But God does share this in scripture in these glimpses that in a way we can grasp some basic understanding.

OK, there's something here and it's perfect. We can't fully understand it now, but it it will all be here.

You know, new heavens and earth. One day we will see this. See, when we get to Christ on the cross, what he's dealing with, what he's interacting with the thief.

And he says, truly, truly, I tell you that this day you shall be with me in paradise. The Greek word that he says there is paradisia, which is obvious.

That's where we get the word paradise. But what's really interesting is in the Septuagint, that is the

Greek copies of the Old Testament, which is the version of the Old Testament that would have been circulating in the time of Christ's ministry.

This would have been what the synagogues knew, more so than Hebrew oftentimes. It says that Adam and Eve lived in the

Garden of Paradiso. And so there's an association there of paradise with Eden that some might make the case.

I've heard some Jewish converts make this case that you could also render that statement as, ye shall be with me in Eden, which kind of goes back to what

Elias was just saying with Edenic restoration. Praise the

Lord. Isn't there a book? I'm Googling it right now. Paradise Restored.

I've heard something like that. It's ringing some bells. Well, it's ringing some bells.

Paradise Restored by David Chilton.

A biblical theology of dominion. You haven't read that one?

That sounds like something you would read. It does, doesn't it? You've read

Chilton, haven't you? I don't think I have any of his stuff, but I'm not opposed to reading that.

Well, I appreciate everybody. I appreciate you guys. I appreciate everybody in the Truth and Love Network, the

Labors Podcast, and all the ministry work that's going on, and your families. This is exciting to talk about, the bigness of God, what's in store for his kingdom, what's in store for us, and to look and observe his glory through how wonderful he is, how intelligent and beautiful are his ways.

I just want to say, this should be a reason to drive us to preach the gospel.

Again, preaching the gospel is a means where the Holy Spirit is calling people to Christ.

I was talking about it, and again, this might sound non -historic premium of me, but when bringing forth the gospel, we're bringing more people in his kingdom, discipling the nations.

Whereas this is what we look forward to as believers.

We will be with Christ, because where he is, paradise is.

Wherever he is, we want to be there. God tells us in his word, yes, this will happen with all

God's people. When preaching the gospel and proclaiming that, and people come to believe in the gospel and put trust and faith in Christ, they are being part of this kingdom that will be part of the new heaven and the new earth.

It just gives me more drive to preach the gospel, to proclaim the gospel.

I really like what you just said there. Wherever he is, that's where paradise is.

With that being said, beautiful thoughts. Why don't you go ahead and share the gospel?

Tyler, whatever last thoughts you have when he finishes, let us know.

Also, if you wouldn't mind praying for us. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, the gospel, obviously, it's what is the gospel?

It's the good news. Right. And I've always said where, like, you know, if there's good news that, you know, let's get the bad.

Then what's the bad news? The bad news is that we are fallen humans. Right.

We have broken God's perfect holy law. Right. That he has given to us as humans.

Right. And he has written it down and given it to Moses on Mount Sinai.

And he says that we are judged according to the law, to this law. And obviously it's summarized in the

Ten Commandments, right? The moral law. And we have broken everyone, right? All of us. And, you know, and, you know, some people might think, oh, but, you know,

I'm going to person, you know, I have murdered. Right. I, you know, I do. I do good things.

Well, the Bible says that our our our best of works is like filthy rags in the eyes of God.

And so where we might not have physically murdered someone, but yet we have if we if we have hated someone crisis that is murder within your heart.

Oh, I haven't cheated with with anybody. I haven't cheated my wife. Well, crisis, if you look with a woman with lust, you have committed adultery with her in your heart.

We have committed all we have broken the whole law. And so Christ came down to fulfill the law on our behalf and take the penalty that was for us on him.

He has lived the life that we should have lived, and he has died the death that we should have died. And he paid the eternal debt, right, for his people.

And he has taken on the wrath of God upon himself. And he says that whoever trusts in me, whoever puts their faith in me shall have eternal life.

And so I call each and every one person here listening to this live either live or on the replay in the replay in the future.

Put your faith and trust in Jesus Christ. Peter says, repent of your sins and be baptized in the name of Jesus.

Whereas you are now part of his kingdom and you are now to go out and proclaim this gospel to others.

Right. And so that's what I call everyone right now. Just fall into the mercy of the cross and repent of your sins and put your faith, all your faith on Christ alone.

It's none of none of our works will save us. None of our works. In fact, all of our good works that we do after we are saved.

It's actually Christ working in us, the apostle Paul states. So, yeah. One thing that is littered throughout the

Old Testament, especially if you read an older Bible like I do, reading the King James Version, there's a lot of talk of dragons, sea monsters and dragons and some of that stuff.

And it doesn't always carry over to the NIV in some of those, which kind of bothers me a little bit sometimes because they're dragons.

That is pretty unique in and of itself. And I think sometimes we're tempted to tame some of that language.

But then you read the Psalms and you see things like, praise him, he dragons. Or I think it's

Psalm 73, he breaks the backs of the dragons. The idea being that even the dragons, even the sea monsters and the great leviathans of the

Old Testament poetry shall praise our God. And that carries into the

New Testament when the beast comes rising up out of the sea. Oftentimes this idea of dragons and sea monsters and things seems to be associated with chaos, with destruction, with being uncontrollable.

And yet we have a God who walked on the water. That essentially subdued chaos under his feet.

Ponder that for a moment. That he walks on the backs of the sea dragons.

That even the dragons shall praise him. And wherever we land with eschatology, that is true.

That even the dragons and the leviathans shall praise their maker.

Just as much as the janitors and the fry cooks shall praise him.

But we will all praise him. Let's pray.

Father God, we are grateful and we are in awe. That even the dragons, that even the great beasts of the sea are bound to you.

Are in the palm of your hand. That you are bigger than anything we could possibly imagine.

That in a world that seems to be running rampant with everything that is untrue, ugly, and evil.

You are still the master of the seas. You are still the one to whom the earth belongs.

The wind and the waves obey you. And you will bring this to its appointed end in your timing.

For your purposes. Your will will be seen on the earth. And would you burn that truth anew, afresh, on our hearts and in our minds today.

That against the proud kings and commodores of this age, you stand your own inexorable self.

In Christ's precious name we pray. Amen. Amen. Amen. Well, I love you guys and I appreciate you very much.

Same goes for all the other guys on Truth and Love Network. And we thank you for watching. Hope this episode was an encouragement to you.

If it was, would you share it, give it a like and a follow. And look for us as we do this again next time.

And we hope to see you there. Thank you for joining the Laborer's Podcast. Remember, Jesus is

King. Live in the victory of Christ. Speak with the authority of Christ. And go share the gospel of Christ.