The Laborers' Podcast- Leadership

So we are live in the house tonight. I was going to start with a with the keys just a little bit. That's to let you know that Rob is letting me host tonight. So anytime you hear the keys and maybe Molly hatchet, which I don't have it queued up here ready to go.

So I'm on a whole nother screen on it. We're on a whole different level than that. We we are going to be talking about Pretty weighty topics tonight. Rob has laid everything out nice and neat horse. We're going to be talking about leadership in a healthy church and How calmly how are you guys doing?

No good.

Fantastic. I just got done fishing. Oh.

Did you catch anything. I caught four.

I got a bluegill about size of my hand. Ah, I got big hands, too. So.

I'm doing pretty good. Um, I Had coffee for breakfast and my wife she got me these these latte flavored protein shakes for for lunch and They have as much of caffeine as one cup of coffee. And now I've got my supper coffee, so I'm doing great.

When will you sleep. Coffee lunch coffee a dinner coffee. All right, so so let's get right into this tonight. A lot of important things to talk about. So Rob what sparked this? This topic for us tonight up that you kind of knocks is coming in.

Let's hang on. We'll bring him on in. Hello.

What's going on brother? Can you hear me? All right. Yes, sir. We can hear you. All right. I have a fan in the background because it's hot. Can you hear the fan or not?

Not unless I listen real close I put my ear up the microphone. No problem we were just getting started. Rob is taking us into our topic tonight. Leadership in a healthy church.

Biblical Leadership and the Need for a Healthy Church

Yeah, well like I said Before these these videos my heart for these videos and and bring us all together and I think these these gentlemen share a similar heart that I do is God's glory in the local church our love for people especially in our communities and our local churches and We believe and maybe you've heard this before that.

There is biblical illiteracy out there. There's shallow study of scripture, but our heart is that we won't. God has spoken. We have you some of you may have heard these key words recently God has spoken.

We have a book. It's his book. He's spoken to us through his word and that is his that is his means of telling us who he is who we are and Who we would he would have us to be and that's not just Personally in our in our personalized.

Yes, that is true. But I believe he also speaks to us about how he would have us to to be and act and behave and do when we connect when we assemble when we get together in local church, so We we should not look anywhere else not in our own wisdom not in the wisdom of of the past.

Not in the wisdom of the present, you know philosophy or whatever it may be apart from Us or those that we we study from are looking and gaining that knowledge from scripture. Which is God speaking to us himself.

And so that's that's one of the points for this healthy church series the only way for us to have a healthy church is to Learn what learn how God would have us to do it. That's the only way to have a healthy church.

Well, let me rephrase that that's the only way for us to have a church period. And I think some you know, some of our theologians and scholars and pastors of the past Have said Have made very strong statements, which would I think many would include that.

If you don't.

If you don't have these certain things if it doesn't look a certain way then you don't have a church at all. When we when we did church discipline. Now I'm gonna forget his name. The the guy that did the Baptist Manual of Church Order.

I'll think of his name here in a moment. But the quote that he said and this was this was in context of church discipline. But he said when when discipline leaves the church Christ goes with it. That's a strong statement.

And so not only You know, not only do we say this is this is what a healthy church looks like. This is what God wants his church to look like period. And we want. Our people we want everyone to be informed about what that is to the best of our ability.

Amen. Amen. So Jesse. What what is it that is as we go through our topic tonight the leadership in a healthy church. So let's just start there. What are the different offices in the local church as designated by the scripture.

Offices in the Local Church: Elders and Deacons

Well, good question. It's it's been you know. Elder Pastor. Sometimes they're the same. Sometimes they're not. Deacon. You had the deaconate which is a little different from the eldership. You know and then you pretty much have.

That's pretty much it you have like the elder the teacher and the deacon are the main offices now in different ecclesiologies they. Have you know debated over this and they added archbishop and bishop and head bishop and all kinds of stuff like in the Church of England but more those who are reformed in their Ecclesiology we tend to stick to what Paul has, you know already stated that most general reform churches but fall in line with the eldership a Deaconate and a teaching elder which is most commonly called a pastor.

One who teaches. That you know in some Presbyteries we have ruling elders. Who are able to teach. Some Presbyteries are not, you know. Requiring some ruling elders to teach. But for the most part, I think the OPC does require a ruling elder.

Who is not the main pastor? But someone who is a ruling elder who makes decisions who is able to vote in the Presbyteries or at generally General Assembly. Those are those are the men who are qualified to be an elder who are learning men who know the scriptures.

Who? You know the eldership are a little bit or. You know hot hold held to a higher standard than the deacon at least in the Presbyterian Church from where I've been at OPC in the PCA where the Deacons are servants.

They are helpers they are in coal coal coal laborers.

In partnership.

With the elders. You know because you know imagine a church wouldn't with no deacons and then imagine a church with no elders and only deacons. You know, I mean. So I would I would you know give divisions like that.

You got the elders got the deacons. You got to teach an elder which is Pastor. I don't necessarily believe, you know in the modern definitions or the modern a model of So many different pastors. Everybody is a pastor, you know, so-and-so call, you know.

You know when you go to a church you've been through a church where it's like 50 different type of pastors. Yeah coffee shop pastor.

No.

College pastor and I know what they're trying to do and I know what they trying to mean. But you don't find any of those type of terminologies or biblical offices in the scriptures. You know what? I mean?

So if you're gonna be a pastor be a pastor be an elder, right? But there's no Office there's no legitimate office of youth. Or college college group pastor or singles pastor. I know what they're trying to do it.

I get it but biblical language Requires for you to use the scriptures and not use it.

How however you want it to right Rob and Rob's got that laid out in the notes there, too. So that's good. Let's not let's not jump too far ahead here. Let's give let's give Dan a chance now. So Dan What are the different offices in the local church?

Elder and deacon. Boom. How do we know that the Bible told me so. So let's let's look at the text here too for a second just just that just a moment. So what we will just go to. Well, we can look real quickly at Philippians 1.

We see in Philippians 1 Paul's letter to the church at Philippi Paul and Timothy servants of Christ Jesus to all the saints who are in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi with the overseers and the deacons and then we see as well in Titus.

But it's Titus real quick all right. Concerning Establishment of elders in the churches. We could we of course know that in 1st Timothy we have when we'll probably look at that to the qualifications for bishops and deacons or bishops Anonymous term like Jesse said synonymous for elders pastors Teachers so on and so forth, but in in Titus we we have we yeah.

We read where Paul stated This is why I left you in Crete in verse 5 so that you might put what remained in order and appoint elders and every Down as I directed you. So this is a divine directive. Amen, Dan.

Short and sweet you got anything else you want you'd like to add there.

No, there is there can be a distinction Depending on which church you're a part of between a ruling elder and a teaching elder. The the RPC and a for instance. We we claim to be a to office type of church where we have elder and deacon so we don't in on paper.

Distinguish between a ruling elder and a teaching elder. However, it's almost like a two-and-a-half office thing because we There's a set of like 16 different exams that you have to take in order to become a teaching elder.

But a ruling elder only has to take I think 12 so there in those four exams are related to the teaching aspect. So they I Don't know. We say that there's two but we act like there's like two and a half.

It's a good point. Many churches do the three office. There's you know. There's many churches in the OPC when I was there that held to the two office and there's some that held on to the three office so and that is the The split piece the split words in the Greek where there's some some some elders are able to teach.

And that's all they do and that are dedicated to teach. And then some are just ruling elders who are able to teach for them. Not principally the principles of teaching in that local assembly, so therefore.

They're gifted man. They're able to teach or qualified but they are not.

The.

Teacher in that local assembly if I get it they might be able to do it, but that's not necessarily Where there were. Functionally they're they're actually gonna live like they may have it worked out with with the other folks that okay.

Well, y 'all are better at teaching than I am. So you go ahead and do that. I'll take care of. Know the shepherding hospital visits, you know, whatever. So, I mean they can split it up just just functionally just practically speaking.

But I just want to put it out there. There is a two office people and there's three office people. And then there's weirdos over there saying that women can be pastors.

Yeah. And and then there's the Hold to the fivefold ministry. So there's actually they just keep it just keeps branching out. But but what you're all are saying there I believe is very helpful don't you think so Rob in that in this in this establishment first really because we're Talking about making that distinction in what an elder is.

Certainly. There are some all are equal as far as Oversight goes. Some are more prominent really some are more visibly prominent. Some are more effective maybe at the behind the scenes of administration.

Administrative, you know and in those things those type things others are going to be out front like for an exam for example. When you have a when you have a church really no matter what size it is whether it's super small or super big.

If they've got a plurality of elders as they should. Because it's very important that it doesn't get under control of one man. But even in a small church when you've got a plurality of elders three elders, right?

There's typically one. That's usually the one that's out in front and then the others are With with together with him, but they're just not. They're just not the primary. We don't I know we don't make a distinction there.

We don't you know. We don't say this one's better than the other because we're not not any of us are better than the other. But there are those distinctions as you all make clear.

Rob, yeah.

I'm thankful that I'm thankful for what God has done in in my lifetime in recent years for bringing these truths back up and and Informing us and so that it's not hidden anymore. It's not secret. And so we don't continue to follow this, you know single pastor system and and so I'm So thankful for for so many that I've heard of who Who desire to be biblical and they they've done the hard work like I know my pastor was one of them who spent the last Ten years, you know doing the hard work of teaching that plurality of elders is is the biblical model and and so I can see that where you you've moved in that direction and so you you're established that is the norm, but then because.

There there's so many of us who have come from that background of the single pastor model. You were talking about, you know, one one kind of stands out as the as the main teaching elder. Even though we say there's no distinction and there's equality.

There's I think there's a temptation With us because we're so used to that old model that we want to elevate him a little bit higher than the others. And it's just a temptation and as I think that's something that we each in our individual churches should navigate I'm not familiar with.

I'm thankful that these these two guys are with us from the Presbyterian background. Because you know, there's different nuances between the Baptist and the Presbyterian. So it's good to hear from their perspective.

Also, can I interject interject another question? So Rob you or Dan you said what what was it? The the initials that you gave are.

The RPC and a.

RPC and a reformed Presbyterian Church in North America. Okay, and Jesse you're in.

The PCA which is the person Presbyterian Church in America. And then there's the open seat, right? Yeah, OPC is the Orthodox Presbyterian Church.

Okay, they're the only pure church.

It's the mother Brothers in OPC, there's a bunch of your brothers. Yes, absolutely.

And Rob Rob the Baptist is SPC. You're y 'all are SPC, right? Yes. Version. It's just it is what it is.

The Southern Baptist is not a denomination I mean the SPC. It's a convention. It's not a denomination. It's just a collaboration of churches that meets together once a year. I Think that is trying to be period.

It's like they want to be impressed with. We want to gather and do a Presbyterian like we want to do what they do just a little bit.

We're just not gonna call it General Assembly or Senate, but we're still gonna get together.

Yeah, but y 'all y 'all don't y 'all ain't had Rick Warren train every single pastor that they were lived in the history of the world.

That's why we're doing so well.

All right, I'm sorry, let's get back on track. That's my bad guys are my bad I'm. So Rob, what are the different terms which we kind of went over that but Rob. What are the different terms for pastor and what and do they mean the same thing?

Pastor, Elder, Overseer, and Shepherd

So as some of the guys already mentioned you have bishop. You have elder you have overseer. You have pastor. Shepherd is used. And help me out if I'm missing any elder. Bishop pastor Shover the overseer.

Yeah, I think. I think that pretty much is the ones that we see in Scripture or our English translators use from Scripture. But the the different terms all describe the same office. From from everything that I've studied everything that I've heard and listened to other people teach.

They describe the same office. And so we can. I think we were fine using any of those terms. Because we're talking about the same office.

And so for the sake of our conversation and not when we get down to the question is what is the role of a pastor? We're automatically going to assume plurality of elders in that Question, correct? Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. All right, so your next question. I'm gonna let you introduce this next question Tyler. I was looking forward to hearing Tyler talk about this part, but you all are going to have to take the reins on this.

So.

What are the different spheres of sovereignty? Where does this idea come from?

Sphere Sovereignty and Jurisdictions of Authority

Well To me there. There's so many I'm still learning. I'm still growing and there there's terminology That that's helping me understand Scripture better and and this this terminology kind of Categorizes an aspect of Scripture how God lays out his his order of things and and Dan he can fill in my gaps and I love to hear him explain and He teaches me a lot and he can help me out here but but talking about the spheres of sovereignty are there different places of Where we are underneath authority, so.

So God ultimately is our ultimate authority Over all things and then underneath him. He places the rest of those Individuals or organizations in in their place and gives them the authority that they have.

So You have government is a sphere of sovereignty a sphere of authority on that God speaks of in Scripture the church is a sphere of sovereignty authority and then you have the home is a sphere of sovereignty and they I know Dan and I talked about this before they The the church is not underneath the authority of the government.

They're different spheres of authority. We have we have a relationship the scripture speaks of but and and we have our own Relationship with with underneath each different sphere of authority or sovereignty Dan fill in any gaps that I left out there.

No, you did pretty good.

It's interesting that any any of those fears are meant to be distinct from and Help to inform and bolster the other ones. So what I mean by that is oh goodness. Sorry, that's all right. For instance the the sphere of government is supposed to Uphold good reward good and punish evil.

That is their their job given by God to them. Now the church is not supposed to be engaged in civil Matters in the same way, but that doesn't mean that they're uninvolved in civil matters. They're there to pray for inform uplift the civil magistrate and they do the same for the home where the The father is supposed to be the head of the household.

They uplift the father they Help the father Execute his duties as father running the household doing all those things. So the the church is supposed to help likewise. The government is supposed to protect the church and the family and the family is supposed to Grow up young individuals and citizens that serve both the church and the government state.

Well, so that way under the heading of Christ all all of those things work together in order to provide a cohesive Whole of how society in general is supposed to work. So yeah, you did a pretty good job, but there's just a little Little more.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And the reason that I brought up and added that into our list of questions and to talk about the sphere of psalm tree is just to address the fact that With within the church God has placed that the elders the plurality of elders in the in the church with authority over the congregation.

And we can talk about and maybe I included in there the role of the pastor. Which would include that. But I included the the conversation of spheres of sovereignty. Just just to inform everybody and help us to understand that The elders have that place.

That the church is a place a sphere of sovereignty a place of it that has authority in our lives. Yeah.

Let me explain one other thing. It's more of an example that might help people tied together. My pastor for instance is is all three of those. Because he's no pastor of the church. He's an elder in the church.

So he has some sort of leadership in our church. He's also the mayor of the town that he lives in so he's in charge of the civil government in the town for leading and Guiding the town of Jeffersonville, New York.

He is also the head of his household. So he will have his fingers in all of those different spots. He as mayor has no authority in the church. So his office as mayor Can't dictate what goes on in the church because it's a different sphere his.

We put on his pastoral hat. He's acting as pastor he does not have authority as pastor of Walton Reform Presbyterian Church over the town of Jeffersonville because that's a different office. The the two are separate.

Likewise, he can't Excommunicate someone from the church while wearing his hat as father and husband in the home. So all of those are separate but there is some overlap because we live in in the real world so, I don't know if that helps to.

Kind of.

See a real-world example of how that may work out. But it's a that kind of helps explain the different spheres of sovereignty a little bit better I think. If not, just ignore what I said.

Would you like to Would you would you like to talk a little bit about a sphere sovereignty where the doctrine of This doctrine of sphere sovereignty came from maybe a little bit about Abraham Kuyper so on so forth for just a moment.

Yeah, you know, I'm just I'm not an expert of Abraham Kuyper. I know Abraham Kuyper was involved in politics out in the Netherlands and involved in the church. So he was you know, not an American. I'm not sure if he was no fully on board with the American Constitution.

I do know that the you know, the American Constitution never says separation of church and state is there's never a sentence that says that it comes from a personal letter from Thomas Jefferson and a lot of people take that and As license and they think it's doctrine.

There's a lot of principle in that. There's a lot of general equity in that. Because America has experience from England. We have experience from our mother country where you know America comes from with Great Britain where you know, the church and state were literally kind of one.

And.

There's a lot of problems a lot of times with that. There's a lot of pros, but there's also a lot of cons. Like for example the you know a king could own the church building and own the church lands and then the king authorized pastors and then you know Ordain pastors the king becomes the head of the church.

Basically. That's what King Henry did. He became the head of the church if you wanted to look at King Henry. You know what? I mean? And then you know the English Civil War and all that stuff. That's how we got where we're at.

But you know, I think the church.

Being.

Presbyterian I like that checks and balances, you know, there's got to be that there's got to be a distinction there's got to be a distinction between a Church and state. I don't like the word sovereignty as much because sovereignty refers to lordship refers to.

And I like to use the word Jurisdictions if I can even use that word jurisdictions means I have Authority within this realm to use Lord of the Rings type thing in the realm I have authority outside of this realm.

My authority weakens. It does is not as predominant, right and like you know, like one of you said the The Lord has placed different different realms of authority and on earth and obviously he is the head Authority overall and the head of the church.

So we have to respect that realm. We have to respect those boundaries. You know, I mean and we're human. We were sinners if you read if you read church history, it's all about Disrespecting those those realms.

It's all about crossing those realms. It's all about, you know, turf battles. It's I don't speak I'm speaking metaphorically and then somewhat literally, you know metaphorically. We disrespect our brothers and sisters in Christ, you know, we disrespect there.

You know what I mean? So Church history is kind of messy in that sense people just fighting. But you know, we do God has given us, you know father's authority. God has given the mother's authority. The guys given the government authority the guys given our church elders authority and that's against our nature is in our nature to rebel again.

Authority, which is one of the primary sins in the garden is that they rebelled against the Lordship against authority in Heaven against the main authority, which was God they wanted to be their own authority self-sovereign autonomous.

That's the problem. Autonomy it's self-rule. They want to be self-ruled and for those who are rejecting Jesus You know what I mean for those who are accepting Jesus but rejecting the church is basically saying You know, I love Jesus, but I hate his bride.

It's like telling you a Like you but I hate your wife. Yeah.

That.

Doesn't. It's not gonna fly. It's not you're right. Yeah, so I Would rather use a door our jurisdictions rather than the sovereignty. Kuiper was involved in state and government. He believed that the Lord Was the Lord of every single every single authority.

He's the one that kind of Preach preach the You know the the cultural mandate meaning that that Christians are supposed to be more active Involved in the culture in every single jurors in every single realm that the coach uses You will find Jesus you will find that the Lord Jesus is The is is the Lord of that realm whether it be art music You know law firms school, whatever it is.

Yeah, actually. Oh, go ahead. I'm sorry. He's the one that promoted that he's the one that was like a pretty diehard.

Yeah, he actually one of one of his most Prominent quotes or is this there is not one square inch in the whole domain whole domain of our human existence Over which Christ who is sovereign overall does not cry mine.

Yeah, but you're you're exactly right. That's it. That was some good information there. So back to Rob now back to Rob. So I think we that's basically what we just tackled. Wasn't it? Why is the church included in this list?

And how does it exercise its sovereignty? Sovereignty is in a in a locale and over over the church itself the domain there. So Rob, can the office of pastor have multiple meanings or adjectives to describe different types of pastors?

The Office of Pastor and Pragmatic Church Programs

Here we go, this is this is what into we got in before or Jesse got into in early on.

Yeah, this is this is the hot-button issue.

Push it.

Wait before you do.

Alright, I Think we I think we mess up by adding all the adjectives and and adding so so many different Titles or additions to the word pastor and creating so many different Offices with within the church that aren't included in Scripture.

And it comes from our history of pragmatism. We the ends justify the means. We want to see a certain type of result. And so we come up with a plan to to achieve that goal to see those results and so part of part of those means of achieving that goal is to have different types of pastors to to oversee different ministries or programs within the church.

And and so we just don't see that in Scripture. Oh. Okay, we unfroze. We just don't see that in Scripture we we see two offices plurality of elders and a plurality of deacons. We have qualifications for those pastors for those deacons and we have a role for those pastors and for those deacons and It doesn't include it doesn't include the the different spheres that with that we've created.

And.

And in that conversation in my reflection in my thinking I'm I'm curious to know where we come up with The Scripture or God giving us such creative license.

To.

To come up with these different offices to come up with these different programs. I just don't see in Scripture where God has given us Such a creative license. I was listening to it to Bodhi Balcombe and he said There are places in Scripture where God does Allow us or call us to be innovative and one of the examples that he used was sing to the Lord a new song and.

And so he was using that as a place where he God allows us to be innovative. But in in these areas where he has spoken He has spoken Clearly where he wants things to be a certain way and he he did not include the permission to be innovative to have a creative license to You know dream up visions and Come up with the means to achieve those goals.

I just don't see it in Scripture.

Yeah, and I think I would say that just Looking back on everything as it transpired over my lifetime. And seeing churches do the things that they do it it's largely based in and they think this ain't meant to be going back to making fun of Rick Warren but it is going back to that business model that the purpose-driven church is built upon that that the whole Emergent church and seeker sensitive movement is built upon.

It is a business model. And so that's that's where those Micro roles I'll call them micro roles r-o-l-e-s. Not Swiss cake rolls, but micro role. That's where yes. That's where those roles I think you know are largely stemmed from.

That's where we see them creeping into the church where. You know, you've got you've got a so quote-unquote executives overseeing the the youth you've got the executives overseeing the children you've got the Executives overseeing that and that and that when there has never been like you said that those roles.

Never we do not see them throughout the text of Scripture. We see a simple Standard in a simple pattern set forth for church government and that is pastors and deacons or elders and deacons.

We and we always like to talk about the argument. You know if we're gonna if we're kind of have a same heart here similar mindset. So, you know, we're not going to combat each other too much here but We do come in conversations with people who disagree with us and so they're going to throw arguments back at us.

So one of the arguments which is another thing that that Bodhi brought up was their argument against us is well Scripture doesn't Tell us not to do it. So, how would any of you guys were Jesse, how would you respond to that, you know scripture doesn't keep us from doing it.

Tell us not to do it. Well, there's a lot of things that the scripture doesn't really tell us not to do. Not change my oil on my car just because I would say oil in in my car or. Or nowadays charge my Tesla, right?

So I will say that's a hermeneutical problem. For people who are trying to say oh the Bible doesn't say. Well, you know, it's very interesting because all of this, you know, I you know, you we mentioned Abraham Kuyper going back to Abraham Kuyper I think we could learn a lot.

The context in which he was in right because he was in You know a zero Separation of church and state environment, you know what I mean? He was in the he was in the Netherlands Calvinistic society Calvinistic heritage this the state was not one with the church in the sense where the state appoints pastors, but one in a sense where it's heavily influenced and the state Pays pays the pastors pays the salaries funds church funds missionaries.

All the money, you know to build new buildings the the church has the strong right arm. Financially and that's from the government. You know what? I mean? So imagine that world and then all of a sudden here comes Armanianism here comes the revolutionaries, right and here comes the mark of the modernist from from the West from Europe I'm from the Western Europe France and England.

They came with it another lens and they they they cause a theological Revolution in his country that that's the party lines like like within a second. It's like like from liberal because from you know from Republicans to Democrats I guess and they shut off the they shut off the the funding to the church and you know.

It causes a church split and all these things and then You know people membership starts to drop to cause a chaos.

So.

Interesting of you know the situation that he was in Fighting now, which call it a modernism. One thing he did get wrong is that he predicted that modernism. Modernism was a fad fashion in style that it was gonna pass away in a short matter of decades.

Which it did it and just transform into post-modernism. But we could learn a great deal from him because he's he stayed to the word he went back to the scriptures. He went back to the Christians and said hey, we can't be joining the government in this liberal type style of politics.

What do we got to do? Well, they want revolution. What do we want? We want no revolution. We don't want any revolution here because once we get revolution. They're gonna hang us. So there'll be a bunch of dead bodies everywhere.

So that's what revolutions do is kill people. We want reformations that changes people. So You know, you know, I just thought you know, you know from his historical Context we can learn a great deal of how he handled that situation.

How he navigated to that? Well, it's very very like it applies to us now because that's basically what we're dealing with just a little bit different because it's Post-modernist not modernism. There's almost the same thing.

It's uh, it's basically taking the Word of God. Like like it's like you're taking the lemon, but you're not eating the lemon. You're trying to squeeze all the lemon juice from the lemon peel. That's what the people are doing with the hermeneutics they're getting the Bible and They're basically making it.