Dogmatic Secularism Rises; the Politics of the Southern Baptist Convention

Well, greetings and welcome to the dividing line. I have no screen in front of me So I don't know if we're going or not going but there we go.

There's something up there now and if you are used to The setup we've had before it's slightly different.

I'm sort of I've just sort of cobbled things together for for now

Because this isn't the computer I'm actually going to be using for the dividing line in the future, but that is the new monitor

I'll be using it's big and it's it's big enough for for old eyes

Even though I put it on its highest resolution and I could actually go higher if it could do higher, but it's

It's big very very large I Remember the first time

I saw a flat screen Randy had one Many many many many moons ago and I was like, oh, oh, oh, that's that's awesome.

And now they're Much less expensive than they were back then actually, but hey

It's it's cool outside. I get to wear one of my Coogee sweaters, which is spelled C O -o -g -i

Man Well, the guy then then said that Google lied to him like come on Google didn't lie to you

Does Duke does Google really lie? I mean, I think he googled Cujo and got

Instead of Coogee. No, no, I'm sorry. There's there's no no both are horrifying

Safely back from the Midwest. I didn't get the nice cold weather I normally get back there that they're gonna have that on Thursday of this week

Not gonna be above freezing and the possibility of snow and stuff like that, but did get to go take a little

Buzz around the st. Louis in a Cessna 172 on Friday Got some nice pictures of the arch and stuff like that.

That was a Little nerve -wracking but but we made it in in one piece. And so I appreciated that had a good conference we talked about reliability of scripture and issues there relating to in fact some of you will be

Interested to know I did spend about an hour on ecclesiastical text ism.

I've added that to the To the repertoire. We discussed a little bit of that in the in the program as well

Those will be posted within the next couple of weeks On YouTube and linked from Covenant of Grace Church 16

Years now I've been going out there and I just figured that that means

I'm sort of officially part of the family or something by now and Always have a good a good time out there.

We're doing things a little bit early today because I got a lot of stuff to catch up on The flu is finally gone and I feel human again and The blood chemistry is back to where it's supposed to be and all that stuff man, don't get the flu.

It's it's it's ugly stuff Hadn't had that for years and years and years and years and years But you know have to be reminded every once in a while that yes, indeed

We're all human beings and I had gotten okay. I had gotten a little lax in You know

In trying to avoid that stuff you you do it pretty well for a while and you get you know

Get a little arrogant and so just just reminder I suppose and that's a that's a good thing But we're back but have a lot of stuff to catch up on.

So we're doing the program a little bit early today Most of you if you listen to the dividing line this violin the briefing this morning if you were watching social media last week

I mentioned actually at the beginning of My discussions there in st.

Louis that I was not at all surprised honestly by What I was seeing in regards to Chip and Joanna Gaines.

I'll be honest with you My wife sometimes does watch

HGTV. I do not I would imagine that Rich is a lifetime subscriber to HGTV.

Now did you You've watched every one other episodes The they're good.

Okay. Well, I Have seen absolutely none Because I don't watch

HGTV. Not my thing Not not my thing at all, but anyway

Everyone is of course up in arms because well

How can this be how can how can you get to sue Christian bakers for not making cakes to celebrate homosexuality, but On the other hand dressmakers

Can say I'm not gonna I'm not gonna provide any dresses for the first lady Because of the the stance and the positions of her husband or something along those lines

As long as you continue to expect fairness lack of hypocrisy consistent standards

Anything like that from the secular totalitarians you're going to live a life of utter and constant frustration

These individuals don't care about consistency they don't care if they are using different standards

Secular totalitarianism is an entirely different world

And you are not going to expect that there is going to be any kind of Fairness in what's going on now

What happens is? You see HGTV has two letters in it that are very important TV and That means it's the entertainment

Arena and this is the temple of Secularism in our land today and so To get into the temple, you know, it's sort of like remember what happened to poor

Paul Paul was accused of bringing Gentiles into the temple and they just about tore him apart

Well, it's the exact same mentality amongst the secular leftists

They are totalitarians They do believe that everyone must think and act like they do that We must celebrate all the things that they do

They have they do not have a basis in their worldview for the concept of freedom of speech liberty of thought no

Secular totalitarians are just that they are totalitarians They they want to control everything in the society including the very thought processes of everyone

And there's a reason for it. There is a reason for it. I Have a graphic if you've ever seen the debate that I did with Dan Barker, I Illustrated the difference

I'm gonna see if this is gonna work. Let me let me let me see if I can make this work I don't I don't know if it will or won't or whatever

But I'm gonna I'm gonna see if it's possible You getting just a plain old white thing over there

Okay, let me see if I can get this to to work In the old old world.

Okay. Hello the center of everything was

God and Everything else Out here and anything else in the the fields of human knowledge

Let's say whether it's history Whether it's science

Whether it's medicine Whether it's morality ethics ethics is a shorter word so it's easier to to do here whatever it is in the olden days

These things were held together by the recognition of the existence of God as creator of all things and so I'm down here and As I relate to God then

I can have true knowledge of these other things because they are a part of the same creation in which

I am and So I don't have to be Infallible and omniscient because God's infallible and omniscient.

He's big enough to hold it all together and so I Can be the finite human being that I am and yet still have meaningful knowledge

Sufficient knowledge as my creator defines that to be of ethics science medicine history art

Everything else in in the universe the problem is that That's not any longer really a possibility

Because God has been erased out of the center here

There's that interesting. It almost looks like it's leaving like it. It's a real white part doesn't it it's it's it's

It's it's okay. I'm gonna have to somehow get out Some cleaner

What Yeah, I can see that That's pretty much what looks like up on the screen up there pretty much identical to that so if you if you take if you take

God out of the center and you take me out of being part of what

God has created down here and You put as a secular humanist you you you have to go

I'm now the center. I'm now at the center. I am the autonomous creature

I am NOT sufficient to hold all these things together To make this work.

I have to be omniscient. That's why you end up with radical skepticism Because I I could have false knowledge of these things and I don't have any reference to anyone who would be the

Standard of objective true knowledge of all things and so a secular epistemology is a is a

Is the very essence of a failed epistemology? It's it's the it's not gonna it's not gonna work and What happens is once you start trying to function in this way then if someone comes along and they choose not to accept your claim to be that Autonomous creature that defines everything else what upsets your apple cart it destroys your epistemology and That's why they tend toward totalitarianism not toward libertarianism not toward Liberty If if I believe that that God defines all things

Hey, if you if you disagree if I think you're just completely wrong Your disagreement doesn't change the nature of reality because you and I don't define reality

But once mankind's put in the center we define reality and therefore disagreement is rebellion disagreement is is destructive to the entire the entire experiment and so You listen to these these totality you want to see you want to see this

Illustrated sadly look at France right now. Look at what is happening in France right now

France is a proudly Secular nation we can we can bring that down France France France France is a proudly

Secular nation. It is part of their their their charter their their government

And so what are they doing? What what happens when you try to?

consistently apply secularism well what you're seeing Immediately is the the first and foremost set of freedoms that is destroyed freedom of speech freedom of conscience freedom of religion and So you have

French police on beaches Forcing Muslim women to take off their burqa

Why it has nothing to do with security it's not well You know you can hide a lot under these there and they're afraid that people gonna be blowing themselves up That that that's not the issue.

The issue is you're not being secular enough You are making by that statement by that statement of dress

You are rebelling against the secular morality that says there's no standard of You should not be demure.

You should not be modest. You should be showing more skin You can't cover that much skin and be like the rest of us and we all have to be together

See there can't be freedom. There can't be expression. There can't be Liberty They may use those terms, but we all have come to understand that for leftists words only mean what they want them to mean and only to a certain extent and so Now you have

France Outlawing Pro -life websites

Dr. Moeller talked about it this morning on the briefing

Where you you have France Basically saying well, not only not only outlawing pro -life websites, but there has been a move recently to Across across cultural boundaries to celebrate

The wonderful people that we all know who have Down syndrome Because the vast majority of them are not being born anymore over 90 % of Babies that are

Diagnosed in the womb with Down syndrome are aborted now But we've all met some of these really special people and so there's sort of a movement to To Celebrate these folks and to recognize the contributions that they make and and things like that.

Well That is that is an in -your -face repudiation of the culture of death which identifies

Human worth based solely upon Arbitrary quality of life issues and that's not a high enough quality of life and Therefore it does not have value and so in There had been commercials

Celebrating the beauty of People with Down syndrome and they were banned

By the French government because they might make some people feel uncomfortable with the choices that they had made the choices that they had made and So you have them banning pro -life websites banning commercials all on the basis of what you see one of the things that you and I just have to Hit on immediately in our society today is

When people say you can't force your worldview on me Any person that says that has a worldview they're trying to force on you.

They just don't want to admit it Secularism is a worldview. Oh, but it doesn't have a

God but it does have ultimate authorities It's still an ultimate authority paradigm that determines

Ethics and morality and everything else it is a worldview and these people recognize they recognize if that if it's put out there on the same level if it if it is if you

People start realizing well, wait a minute. You're shoving your worldview down my throat You are silencing me on the basis of your worldview.

They might start fighting back and So you're just not even allowed to say this.

It's just immediately shut down. We can't talk about this kind of stuff but the reality is secularism is a worldview and It is an incoherent and destructive and anti -human worldview that robs

It's robbing the current generation of transcendent meaning and value the concepts of self -sacrifice

Self -discipline all these things if you can't, you know,

I know most of us just sit back and we chuckle at this because it's so stupid but When you see people that are supposed to be adults

Looking for safe spaces and teddy bears. Something has gone wrong the truthfulness of the 18 year olds storming the beaches of Normandy in 1944 versus 18 year olds who can't even talk to a woman because they spent the

Majority of their the years they were supposed to be growing up Staring at a screen shooting zombies

Something has gone wrong here Something has gone wrong here The the pushing back of of the time of marriage until now it's pushing into the 30s and One of the reasons for it.

Is it because people aren't grown up enough yet? They're just not mature enough yet Why?

What's going on? I was taught when I was raised I had a responsibility in my teen years to be maturing to be taking responsibility for myself

To be contributing to the family Because once I turned 18,

I was responsible for myself Not anymore

What are you told now? What is everybody told in our society now that you as a parent are

Responsible for paying for your kids college and that has been absolutely burned into our brains

My parents never they never said don't worry son. We'll take care of your college I knew that they probably were not gonna be able to do that at all

They might want to help as much as they could but that was gonna be up to me.

That was gonna be my job that's my responsibility and So in high school,

I earned my college They're called scholarships. They were called scholarships because you never got a

B in high school now what would it have been more enjoyable for me to have gotten some

B's in high school because I could Go and play and and you know be immature

Sure, but I realized that that You know, I was taught once you turn 18, you're responsible for yourself man and all of that was based upon a worldview that said

God has made you in such a way that you are responsible before him and You have responsibilities to other people

All that's falling apart And I read a No, I wonder if I can

I wonder if I can find it quickly here Because it was it was in my it was in my feed so It might still be here.

Let me see if it yeah good old Michael Fallon who we still haven't gotten together with to call and and do do his

I Mean, he's just the the world's greatest marketer and I'm the world's worst marketer. And so we need to do something about this

Mike posted Patrick Dineen Notre Dame professor our schools are committing civilizational suicide

Let me let me just read this to you this is this is well this is worth your time It's it fits in with everything else we're talking about My students are know -nothings

They are exceedingly nice pleasant trustworthy Mostly honest well -intentioned utterly decent, but their brains are largely empty

Devoid of any substantial knowledge that might be the fruits of an education in an inheritance and a gift of a previous generation

They are the culmination of Western civilization a civilization that has forgotten nearly everything about itself

And as a result has achieved near -perfect indifference to its own culture By the way,

I would just add that the reason for this is a culture that becomes embarrassed that its predecessors lived in the light of the existence of God is a culture that must enforce amnesia upon itself or live with constant shame a

Self -imposed foolish shame, but all this goes back to what did you know

Solzhenitsyn was right? What's wrong with the West? It's forgotten God It doesn't live in the light of its own creator

It's Romans 1 all over again. It's Romans 1 being lived out. But anyway I go back to the article, but ask them some basic questions about the civilization

They will be inheriting and be prepared for averted eyes and somewhat panicked looks Who fought in the

Peloponnesian War? Who did fight in the Peloponnesian War? You could almost have figured that out

Almost have figured that out by watching the 300 movies Which which guys who do first -person shooter games only watch because the

CGI Not because of any of the history, but just just think Athens and Sparta and anyway

Who fought in the Peloponnesian War? Who taught Plato and whom did Plato teach? How did

Socrates die? Just be careful what you eat. Anyway Raise your hand if you have read both the

Iliad and the Odyssey the Canterbury tales Paradise Lost the Inferno Who was

Saul of Tarsus boy, we better get that one, right? What were the 95 theses who wrote them and what was their effect boy you better get that one, right?

Okay You better get that one, right? What does the

Magna Carta mean how and where did Thomas Beckett die who was Guy Fawkes and Why is there a day named after him boy when

I was down in New Zealand? It was Guy Fawkes day and there were but there was there was all sorts of fireworks going off and all sorts of neat fun stuff

Like that, but does anyone know why? That was that's even a day of celebration

What did Lincoln say in his second inaugural his first inaugural? How about his third inaugural?

What are the Federalist Papers? What our educational system aims to produce is cultural amnesia a wholesale lack of curiosity

History less free agents and educational goals composed of content free processes and unexamined buzzwords like critical thinking diversity ways of knowing social justice and cultural competence

Our students are the achievement of a systemic commitment to producing individuals without a past For whom the future is a foreign country

Cultureless ciphers who can live anywhere and perform any kind of work without inquiring about its purposes or ends perfected tools for an economic system that prizes flexibility geographic interpersonal and ethical

Wow Wow, our students are the achievement of a systemic commitment to producing individuals without a past For whom the future is a foreign country.

Isn't that the case? Isn't that the case? But how else can it be in a secular society?

Because there is no future that has meaning Because there was no past that had meaning if I am autonomous if I get to determine today

I'm a male tomorrow. I'm a female tomorrow the next day after that I'm going to be a canine and then after that I'm going to be

You're gonna need to call me Zeezer and Zim and the day after that. It's Yeager and Yim And all this other abject insane stupidity that is worthy of not an instant of respect

But now is being placed into law Which means law becomes something that is not worthy of respect either

But if I am this autonomous creature Then I might find it interesting

To know what happened in the past but only for entertainment value Future?

Well once I'm gone, what does it matter? I mean You know

What what's even the basis for wanting to pass something on to your children? And of course even when you say surpass something on the first thought anybody has is what material things not a heritage

Not a connectedness to their ancestors and those who came before them man

That that was falling apart. Even when I was younger I mean I was in my 30s, maybe even 40s before all of a sudden

I started going, you know I'd like to know a little bit more about my

Grandparents and my great -grandparents and where they come from and and you know all that kind of stuff. I I'd sort of it's because of my study of history that I started realizing

I've I really haven't had a lot of of Emphasis in my life upon what has come before me and of course if you don't know about the great intellectual movements and Theological movements that came before you then you are you are determined by those things

But you you can't examine those things. You can't look at yourself go. Oh, wow you know

I I think this particular way because of What has happened in the past and because of what's gone on and in Western culture and this happened in England and this happened in Germany and blah blah blah, but I can't do any of that I've I'm I'm totally

Dependent upon that stuff. I just live in ignorance of it and just figure that's just the way I am You really don't end up knowing yourself very well when you don't know anything about history

And when you don't think there's gonna be a future, I mean, you know, there's gonna be a future But why should

I care about I'm not gonna be here I think it's why you you see the willingness of Western cultures to absolutely indebt our children to their eyeballs

We're not gonna be around What does it matter? Eat drink be merry spend far far far far far far far more money than we actually have

Because everything's about me anyways anyway That sermon was not a part by the that's just those of you listening by audio the

Last paragraph here is but even on those better days. I Can't help but hold the hopeful thought that the world they have inherited a world without inheritance without past future or deepest cares is

About to come tumbling down and that this collapse would be the true beginning of a real education

Wow Think about that, but it fits It fits really well with what we are looking at here and I've been saying over and over again.

I say to the young people you you've been robbed You have been robbed every time you buy into the secular mindset the secular worldview

It's it's me me me the autonomous human being idea You are robbed of the highest aspirations of what it means to be created in the image of God and The end results

When when you when when people can go on college campuses and The people on those campuses can't tell the difference between Donald Trump and Fidel Castro Yeah, you heard about that yeah, which which one's worse

Um Total complete moral ethical collapse, it's

Sadly, the only thing that that cures this is is complete societal breakdown in war that that resets everything and that's that's

Frightening really really frightening. But anyway somehow back to HGTV Look This should not shock us for a second because Hollywood and the entertainment industry is the inner sanctum the very temple of the culture of death and Therefore if you are going to walk in its precincts you must abide by its rules and If you go to a church that teaches what

Christians have believed for a very long time that is an open and Unforgivable act of Cultural heresy you are denying the dogmas of the culture

None of us should be shocked for an instant for for a moment at the reaction of that You simply cannot maintain a

Meaningful level of moral integrity based upon a Christian worldview and function in that society.

You will be marginalized it's just that's just heresy Abject heresy nothing that can be done about it.

So, you know, I'm just like This doesn't surprise me There's gonna be a fight a lot of people like them and I think

I sort of think they'll survive for now But we'll see I mean if if the if the totalitarians can get the appropriate corporate sponsors

You know hold them hostage and threaten boycotts or things like that They'll they'll be gone they'll be gone

But we'll see we'll see Yeah, home and garden TV, I guess HGTV Okay, I mentioned while I was in St.

Louis that I was going to talk about this and So I must needs do so or there could be a lot of people could be very very upset

Last week the day after this Chapel at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary.

I I actually I Don't remember why it was that I actually had time

I was doing something else to listen to The Chapel service

Where dr. Rick Patrick now evidently, dr. Patrick is One of the lead individuals in this traditionalist movement and if you're familiar with The Southern Baptist Convention and the

Southern Baptist traditionalist movement you have connect 316 Which is sort of a umbrella

Organization normally end up hearing about them in May and June Because they when the convention takes place they have their meetings and that's when most of but you know

You've got you've got other stuff You've got other stuff out there,

I forgot to silence the phone there And Basically there you know when you when you when you see websites websites like SPC voices and You see back a few years ago when the primary topic of discussion was

There is no Actual, it's not original sin or original guilt.

We're not really guilty of Adams transgression We're born with a corrupted nature, but we're innocent in God's sight, you know all this kind of stuff

Same general area. Well, anyway, Rick Patrick, I guess Is one of the lead guys here and he was asked to speak in the chapel and and basically what what you have

Was a Advertisement for the anti -reformed

Southern Baptist resources And it was just it was just read well, okay

He read the presentation and then sang the conclusion Which was really uncomfortable.

I Just I've so many times. I like to say preachers preach don't sing

Don't even don't even go there leave that leave that to the guys that can actually do There's been some interesting exchanges with him in Twitter One of the most recent ones just three hours ago from Dr.

Patrick was True or false new Calvinist opposed patriotic services more than traditionalists do and the earlier the earlier part of that Had had been a statement where he said new

Calvinists are much less likely to have God and country services and What all this reminded me of Well, let's play let me play something for you and then

I'll we'll sort of put it all together because One of the things that gets lost in the anti Calvinism Let's Come up with wild interpretations of John 6 and John 10

Let you know, for example that the John 10 thing we talked about last week about how the the eye of other sheep that are not of this flock and Their interpretation well of some of them.

It wasn't even Hobbes interpretation, but that this is not as The vast majority of New Testament scholarship is seen down to the ages.

This is not the Jews and The Gentiles which is what you get if you just read

John in context, but we know the traditionalists aren't into that If you read in context, you have the

Jews Gentiles. This is the prophecy of the Gentile mission You've got this in all the Gospels.

This is one of the linchpins that connects Thematically John with the synoptic

Gospels really important stuff But they don't care about stuff like that because they're not going out and debating the Muslims and people like that They're not they're not taking this stuff outside.

This is this is a as I said a rearguard action They are attempting to stem the tide within Southern Baptist life of an understanding of God's sovereignty and salvation, so They're not concerned about that.

So This idea that the disciples are The flock and then the other flockers are the people gonna believe later on You know where that actually ended up coming from that the original impetus to that was so that Judas Would be one of those for whom

Jesus gives his life. They're just at they've got to find a way for Jesus to fail in his atonement

Because if Jesus doesn't fail in his atonement, then it's obviously just made for the elect and we can't have that So you've got to find a way for Jesus to die for someone who ends up in hell

Because that's really important to us that that needs to happen Just makes me want to beat my head on the table.

But anyway So this is this is stuff that's going on and as a result they're centered at Southwestern Baptist theological

Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary and New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary this very strong Anticalvinistic attitude on the part of the leadership

It doesn't mean that there are not people who don't go to those schools that would identify themselves as being reformed but they'll all tell you they are in the minority and That they are regularly

Criticized and their positions regularly misrepresented I Happen to know and anyone who has any experience in the

Southern Baptist Convention happens to know that the SBC The SBC is a political entity

The politics in the convention are Deep and hidden What you see see see the the the great see

I I I ran afoul this years and years ago when

I I dared Criticize Mark Seyfried at Southern Seminary and all the

The the stuff that came down on me and I had one guy said I'm never gonna work with you in publication again

Because you violated The one law of Southern Baptists Southern Baptists do not criticize other

Southern Baptists now I wasn't even a Southern Baptist at the time, but didn't matter That is the big law and so when you see reformed

Southern Baptists Shaking hands and taking pictures and oh, we just work so well together

That's what that's what you have to do to have positions of authority and power in the

Southern Baptists Convention It's what goes on behind the scenes. That's totally different and I happen to know

Firsthand, well at least secondhand, I guess but I happen to know individuals immediately and directly

Who have experienced the fact that if you? make it known that You are going to preach and teach the doctrines of grace in a

Southern Baptist Church You can expect that there will be people in leadership

Who will be seeking? covertly To bring about rebellion in your church and even to the point of church splits.

They are willing to do it That's the politics of the Southern Baptist Convention That's what's going on.

And So on the outside, oh, we just love one another and you know, I just disagree with you

But we just love one another but then from that they're going to text message people

If you're trying to get into a church be warned about that guy or if you're already there Need to get rid of that guy and it all ends up going back to ecclesiology, too

Which is something I want to talk about but if I don't get this played I'm not gonna be doing any of this. So let's let's take a look at this

You should be getting it. I think I have it sent over to you now. This is after Dr.

Patrick's presentation Dr. Paige Patterson the head of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary got up and made some comments that ended up echoing and Echoing and echoing and for for good reason.

And so here's here's what he had to say I would sing at the end of my sermon but unfortunately your

Calvinism would not hold up well because you would vote with your feet and leave the building and I wouldn't blame you.

And so I'm Glad you can do it. My brother. Thank you so much for a wonderful presentation

And I trust that you will seriously consider it I know that there are a fair number of you who think you're

Calvinist and but understand that There is a denomination

Which represents that view it's called Presbyterian. I have great respect for them

They are many of them the vast majority of them our brothers in Christ and I honor but if I held that position

I'd become a Presbyterian I Would not remain a Baptist because the

Baptist position from the time of the Anabaptist really from the time of the New Testament is very different and I think he

Brother Rick made the case this morning that you need to consider and I hope you seriously will

Consider it in the days that come and I want to thank you so much Brother Rick for making that wonderful statement now for some reason the mp4 hiccup there and got desynched, but um, you still got

Everything that was said So Some of you think you're

Calvinist. Now, this is a chapel service. Okay, so this is the president of the seminary speaking to the students and And Some of you students you think

That you're Calvinist. You probably really aren't we're doing our best to convince you and Believe me.

I know there is a significantly obvious bias in the teaching of The majority of the people at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary There have been some in the past who have somehow survived for a period of time

I know there's a few holdouts, but let's just be honest the leadership of Southwestern and New Orleans are firmly in opposition to reform theology.

They are firm synergists Not just synergists But I think you can make a pretty good argument that they will

Dip their toes into the Pelagian side of things not just the semi Pelagian side

But into the Pelagian side of things every once in a while They'll pull it back just a little bit and go no, no, no, no, but that's what they're doing.

We all know it We all know it But what struck me in this not -so -subtle hint

I'm not sure why you have that up there But what there you go, hi

What struck me in this not -so -subtle hint that hey, you know if you want to believe this stuff

There's a there's a denomination you can join and they're called the Presbyterians because you see we we go back to the

Anabaptists and all The way back to the Apostles and immediately some of us were going You ain't been reading the

Trail of Blood again. Have you? There is look there there are so many books already in print

That debunk the the Anabaptist paradigm So many lectures that have already been delivered that I'm not going to be repeating them just refer you to Numerous resources on that particular subject the reality is that the term

Anabaptist refers to such a massively wide movement and next to impossible to define movement when it comes to issues of theology that Certainly to to try to say well

We come from that it'd be one thing to say We purposefully seek to draw more of our understanding of our heritage from a certain spectrum of Well -studied

Anabaptists, we're not we're not talking about Munster here. We're not talking about Jan Leiden But you know, there were some people with With Zwingli you know, we you know, there's some good stuff here from Hubmeier and Blaurock and we and we we appreciate some of the things they said we can draw some things from here okay, that's different than to just simply say we came from the

Anabaptists and Then what do you mean and then all the way back to the Apostles again? This is this type of landmark ism some kind of trail of blood stuff.

I Don't know. I've heard some really interesting lectures coming out of Southwestern that That the rest of the world sort of looks at historically and goes.

Yeah, what what what what do you do in there? but what really What really caught my attention is what doesn't catch almost anybody else's attention because I'm weird.

I realize that Um, but There is

Completely missing here is the issue of ecclesiology because Yeah When it comes to the doctrines of grace me and my

Presbyterian buds. Yeah But we don't agree on ecclesiology either

If anyone would like to see How that works, let me see here. Here we go. I think we have these in stock fact

I'm pretty sure we have some out there. Don't we? Perspectives on church government five views of church polity

Danny Aiken James Leo Garrett Robert Raymond the late

Robert Raymond Paul FM's all and yours truly and I've mentioned this book before It seemed to me

That the two people who took it extremely seriously and went at each other fairly strongly were were me and dr.

Raymond The single pastor model starts off going, you know, you can make a pretty strong case for a plurality of elders

But hey, we can do it in other ways, too. Let's let's talk about how we can do it in other ways. I happen to believe and dr.

Raymond happened to believe that there is a New Testament foundation as to the form of the local church

The Apostles went about strengthening the church how'd they do that by Ordaining elders in the churches not an elder not a deacon board that then hires pastors

You will not find that anywhere in Scripture it is not there

Nowhere When you have deacons functioning as elders and Determining who is going to be the one ministering the word

That's not a New Testament setup But it is the Southern Baptist setup. It is a

Southern Baptist setup and the traditionalists oppose The Establishment of a plurality of elders they oppose it

They they that's one of the things they point out see that's where these Yeah, this must be a neo -calvinist because he's talking about having a plurality of elders.

Well, that's because he may have been reading Acts Maybe he started reading Paul maybe started reading

Peter where you have a plurality of elders and maybe

Somewhere along the line they realized you know what? This whole idea of of a monarchical episcopate

Where you have one bishop one pastor ruling and reigning over everybody else Man, that is a recipe for disaster.

And where did it actually come from? historically speaking well It wasn't the earliest form and it eventually developed into oh, yeah the papacy.

Okay. All right So it has been it has been well pointed out that Many Baptist churches have as their their form of ecclesiology a mini papacy

And it's true But the point is he says hey, there's this denomination you can go join

No, not there isn't because me and the Presbyterians we disagree about that. Yes, they have a plurality of elders

But then they have something above the local church You you have the Presbyterian and you've got the whole denomination that that ends up and you know

Each one does a little bit and then you've got weird independent Presbyterians, which I'm not really sure how that works

But they're out there too and they're doing their things but but you have this Well, you see in Acts 15 you have this council and and again if you just want to see how this all fleshes out

Check out the interaction between dr. Raymond and I in this in this book because that's what we focused on was is acts 15

Really a basis for having something above the local church in a denominational sense a presbytery sense and I don't believe that it does and argued that point in in the book and I think it's still useful along those lines, but it is fascinating that Ecclesiology is

For the vast majority of people Inherited without reflection.

It's inherited without reflection I I did I grew up with a the paradigm of the pastor and the deacon board and the deacons are in control and As long as the pastor and the deacons are getting along now of course, you can have all sorts of situations where you know, you know because of the worst situation is when you have a

Particular family or group of families that control everything. Oh, then it gets really ugly But you know the pastor then has to work on getting his allies on the deacon board and then you've got the other side and when things start going south and you've got all this fighting and infighting and church splits and that's why that's why

I Was driving through Georgia once with a friend we were going to visit the the prison at Andersonville and We're driving through these little rural

Georgia towns and you're driving along and there's the first Baptist Church and go around the corner There's a second

Baptist Church and then the third Baptist Church and I mean I saw the seventh Baptist Church and The only reason the number started going back down again is because we went to another another town

So so they reached us to start counting from from that town rather than the last town and There's a reason for that there's there's a reason why you have that kind of splitting

And the Presbyterian say it's because we're wrong about the Presbyterian thing. Well on the other hand on The other side

I would point out that those overarching structures over the local church have been the greatest way

Where we've seen entire denominations go apostate Because they become the mean of means of injecting the poison of heresy into the local churches and what ends up happening

Well, how'd you end up with the opc? Well, because that denomination had gone left and that denomination before that had gone left and that denomination before that had gone left

See how it works. We do live in a fallen world. Anyway The point is that I grew up with a particular

Ecclesiology and it wasn't till seminary Where again, you know, you're you're you're having to translate

Greek and you're running into hmm elders Hmm, that that's yep.

I think I'm parsing that right? Yeah, that's a plural And all of a sudden you're going. Well, why do we not have them?

and some other people do and and you start doing some reading and start finding out well, this is this is hmm, this has been an issue down through church history and And uh, you can you can see the a a cycle of degradation always leading to these these monarchical

Monarch a single leader type type thing and so that's just simply

Shoved aside here, you know, if you're gonna believe that stuff just just go become a presbyterian. Let's not worry about ecclesiology

Uh, let's not worry about the the doctrine of baptism And what it means and and and and is it eschatological?

Uh, is it is it something hoped for or is it something pointing to an already accomplished reality? um let's not worry about all those things y 'all just You know if if if you really want to believe these things there's a place you can go it really sounded like There was an invitation there and since I know the the back the back story uh of of the

The politics, uh, I didn't have any question about what was being said at all now there was a statement put out later on that tried to sort of Backtrack a little bit on that.

I don't know. We don't want anybody to leave now. We all just want to be unified together, but uh when you're when you're putting out those

Things for public consumption at the same time in the background You're doing everything you can to undercut the ministry of individuals who hold that other perspective

Yeah, uh There there you go. Uh, there's there's something to be thought of there.

So It was interesting Uh to to hear those comments and and most people were focused upon the primary thing

Yeah, the sermon had been about calvinism and and you know all the rest that kind of stuff

Uh, but there are other issues involved as well and they are I I personally think

That the wisdom of god and the organization of the local church is sort of an important thing uh, when when

I hear people who convert to roman catholicism quoting first timothy 3 15 The church is a pillar and foundation of the truth and say see

I was never taught that uh I want to go Have you ever noticed what that's talking about there?

It's talking about the local church. It's real easy to go Yes, just universal church in the mists of time. That's actually talking about the local church.

Look at it. Look at it in context It's talking about how you'd be how you were to behave in the local church it's um

That that's that's high stuff. I have a very high view of the church Uh, and as such

I think ecclesiology is a very very important thing. Okay Well, we need to get that done, uh early today uh and uh lord willing

I can't see any reason why thursday shouldn't be just a a normal Normal thing so, um, uh,

I I'm, not sure if i'm gonna have all this set up quite right yet, but we'll work on it.

Uh, we'll keep working on it uh, i've got some uh Muslim stuff I need to get to And some other things piling up, but we'll we'll see at least

At least I had my normal voice today and a normal level of uh of of energy

Uh, it's it's nice to be feeling like a human being again So I appreciate the prayers of those of you who are praying that I would get better and not so much those of you

But we know who you are, but thanks for watching the program today.